Strange Affairs & Frozen Blood - Pottstown, Pennsylvania

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Small Town Murder

Episode: "Strange Affairs & Frozen Blood – Pottstown, Pennsylvania"

Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Date: October 9, 2025

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Overview

This episode digs into the bizarre, tangled murder of David Swinehart, a larger-than-life real estate mogul from Pottstown, Pennsylvania. The story unfolds through a web of family betrayal, strange relationships (including an affair between an aunt and her nephew), small-town grudges, frozen evidence, and a justice system that ties itself in knots for nearly two decades.

Throughout, James and Jimmie balance the genuinely tragic with their sharp, irreverent humor, dissecting the outrageous personalities, legal twists, and the lasting effects on an entire family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Pottstown: Setting the Stage

• Town Background (05:11–13:43):
  • Classic steel-mill boom-and-bust town, now in decline—“you don’t want to end up like Pottstown.”
  • Known in pop culture (Hall & Oates origin, Rosedale Diner).
  • Real estate is cheap but with a high crime rate: "Property crime, almost double the national average... violent crime, one third above" (19:13).
• Local Color:
  • Scathing and odd online reviews summarized hilariously.
  • Notable Residents: Darryl Hall (Hall & Oates); the diner on their album cover is a tourist spot.

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The Swinehart Family: Wealth, Eccentricity, and Collapse

• David Swinehart’s Rise (21:49–25:24):

  • From a blue-collar background, he amasses a $20 million fortune through ruthless property hustle, strip malls, and investments.
  • Known locally as a conspicuous, sloppy dresser who drove a "pimp mobile" (red Cadillac with Rolls-Royce grill) and threw money around ostentatiously.
  • “He put on these oversized headlights and one of those Rolls Royce grills, you know, like Chong in Up in Smoke” — Local Cop (30:23).
  • His wife Patricia plays the socialite; the family has four children.
  • David is overworked and barely home—a key source of marital strain.

• The Affair & Family Betrayal (32:04–40:12):

  • David moves out to live with his young girlfriend, Sarah Sky, openly flaunting the affair.
  • Patricia, left at the mansion with the kids, soon starts her own affair—with David’s nephew, Thomas DeBlaze (23, her much younger in-law).
  • David becomes suspicious and, in classic ruthless style, bugs his home to catch Patricia cheating, aiming to avoid paying in the approaching divorce.

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Murder in the Snow: The Crime & Investigation

• The Night of the Murder (44:02–48:47):

  • On January 15, 1982, David attends family dinner as usual, seems in good spirits, and leaves for the night—a routine he’s maintained, even during divorce proceedings.
  • He never arrives at his next engagement and fails to appear at work the next day to complete insurance paperwork (which would cut Patricia out).
  • His birthday passes; family and police begin to worry.

• Discovery of the Body (48:47–53:25):

  • David’s “pimp mobile” is found abandoned, windows frosted, in an alley behind one of his own apartment complexes.
  • Quote: "He is frozen solid, by the way. Solid like Frankie Carbone in Goodfellas. Like, it took them three days to thaw him out." (49:32)
  • Autopsy: Beaten with a bat (six+ blows), stabbed 14 times (in back, side, and buttocks), likely killed by more than one person.

• Initial Investigation: A Web of Lies (54:00–61:32):

  • Multiple blood types in the car and evidence the body was moved post-mortem.
  • The victim’s enemies “could fill City Hall” (54:39).
  • Patricia and Thomas both deny knowledge, but David’s bugged tapes reveal their romantic affair in graphic detail.
  • Nephews Thomas and Jeffrey appear to have alibis; evidence (besides the tangled family ties and finances) is largely circumstantial.

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Decades of Legal Chaos: Trials, Appeals & The System Stretched

• Early Dead Ends and Cold Case (70:13):

  • No witnesses, no murder weapon, and crucial recordings immune from court under the wiretap laws.
  • Patricia collects on the $523,000 life insurance.

• Breakthroughs via Jailhouse Snitching & Wiretaps (73:33–80:31):

  • Two years later, police pressure nephew Jeffrey, who sings and agrees to wear a wire around his family; tapes catch incriminating but not outright confessional conversations.
  • Example (paraphrased): "You want to end up like Uncle David?" | "You got your cut." (79:01)

• Further Snitches & Law Bending (83:17–104:09):

  • Small-town thugs "Neanderthal Man" (Arthur Hall) and Terry Mount are drawn in, revealing the plot’s expansion: Thomas and Jeffrey enlist them for muscle in what’s initially pitched as a robbery but quickly becomes murder for hire.
  • Testimony: Thomas calls to confirm David is at home; brothers ambush with a bat and knife as David leaves. David is battered, stabbed, and dumped in the bitter cold.

• Judicial Back-and-Forth:

  • Years of appeals center on whether wiretap evidence and snitch testimony are admissible—reaching the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
  • Defendants cycle in and out of jail; bizarrely, some are acquitted completely (Mount) despite being deep in the conspiracy.
  • Mount: “Not guilty of everything.” Patricia faints in court. (104:09–105:00)

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Resolution? Inconclusive Justice & Fallout

• Patricia’s Trial (115:21–136:42):
  • At last, in the ‘90s, Patricia (long suspected yet never indicted) is arrested after a co-conspirator’s statute of limitations on perjury runs out and he implicates her in open court.
  • Her children, all adults, oppose her prosecution. “Even if she did have something to do with it… we don’t want to know” (119:52).
  • Key prosecution arguments (rejected by judge):
    • David was changing insurance (she stood to lose payout)
    • Patricia’s unique knowledge of her husband's schedule, orchestrating the ambush.
  • Defense hammers the unreliability of state's witnesses, who have extensive criminal backgrounds and incentives to lie.
  • Patricia acquitted of all charges. "In the eyes of the law, she did nothing" (137:24).
• Thomas’s Trial & Sentencing (141:19–154:58):
  • After protracted appeals, Thomas is convicted based on wiretap tapes and accomplice testimony—despite similar evidence that failed to convict others.
  • Sentenced to life without parole.
• What Became of the Families (158:46–160:02):
  • The children suffer: estrangements, addiction, trauma. One commits suicide, referring to a “family curse.”
  • Themes of intergenerational destruction and the futility of the crime run throughout.
• Loose Ends & Historical Impact (164:00–166:47):
  • The case changed Pennsylvania law regarding consensual wire recordings, speedy trial rights, and admissibility of wiretap evidence.
  • Prosecutor Castor haunted by never securing a true sense of justice; law students learn the case as “how not to convict on circumstantial evidence.”
  • Patricia eventually moves away and reportedly dies in 2023, never confessing.
  • Notable Quote (Retired Detective, 2020; 160:41): "We all knew Patricia did it. Hell, the whole town knew. But knowing and proving—that’s different. She played us all."

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Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments

• On Pottstown’s Reputation:

  • "Pottstown is like one of those places where they go, you know, you don't want to end up like Pottstown." (05:33)

• Describing David’s Car:

  • “He put on these oversized headlights and one of those Rolls Royce grills, you know, like Chong in Up in Smoke…” (30:23)

• Family Dysfunction:

  • “You want love, don't look for it in your uncle's wife.” — Jeffrey, from prison (162:47)
  • “The real victims were those kids. Growing up knowing your mother probably had your father killed, your cousins are in prison for it, and everyone in town knows your business. That's a life sentence. Worse than prison.” — Retired detective (161:25)

• On Justice Eluding the System:

  • "In the eyes of the law, she did nothing. Jeffrey did everything. Mount did something on a different case... What in the hell is happening?" (137:24)

• Comic Relief:

  • “Let me help you with those underwear. They're up too high. Let's take them down.” (72:21)
  • Defense attorney on unreliable witness: “He's raping you from that witness stand. He raped one jury already. Don't let him rape you.” (136:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Town Intro & Pottstown History: 05:11–13:43
• Swinehart Family Backstory: 21:49–32:04
• Affair & Betrayals: 32:04–40:12
• Murder & Crime Scene: 44:02–53:25
• Initial Investigative Stalemate: 54:00–61:32
• Wiretap, Undercover, and Break in the Case: 73:33–80:31
• Testimonies, Trials, and Acquittals: 83:17–104:09
• Patricia’s Trial & Acquittal: 115:21–136:42
• Thomas’s Conviction: 141:19–154:58
• Family Outcomes & Case Aftermath: 158:46–166:47

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Final Thoughts

The story of David Swinehart’s murder and its fallout is a hall-of-fame entry for small town chaos and legal quagmire—filled with greed, lust, family treachery, legal innovation, and a parade of vivid personalities. “It is one of the most twisted, weird, crazy goddamn cases we’ve ever covered.” (166:47)

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Credits & Patreon Shoutouts

Show closes with the hosts’ customary gratitude for listeners and Patreon supporters, reading a long list of names while keeping up the same dark, playful vibe.

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For more info: shutupandgivememurder.com
Patreon: patreon.com/crimeinsports

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(“Don’t fuck your aunt”—James, 179:55)

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Transcript

[James Petregallo]

This week in Pottstown, Pennsylvania, a twisted tale emerges when a rich, brash local with a million enemies is found horribly murdered. But detectives have a mess on their hands with many suspects, including nephews and wives all telling different stories. Welcome to Small Town Mur. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder. It is a twisted mess. We don't have to tell you that. It's the same every week. A crazy story, just way different all the time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do one more again.

[James Petregallo]

Oof. This is some wild stuff we have. Before we get to that though, you definitely want to head over to shut up and give me murder.com. that is where you find everything, all your merchandise and especially tickets for live shows. Still some tickets left for October 18th in Seattle at the Moore. Very few there. Very few. So they just put out a low ticket alert or whatever. So get in there if you want to see us because that's pretty much all there is live for the rest of the year. Everything else is pretty much sold out. Might be a couple left in Philly. I don't know. Did they sell out? Might be sold out, yeah. There's also another show, the virtual live show, Thursday, October 30, right before Halloween. Come hang out with us. We are very excited for this. You can. It's just like a regular live show. You can watch it anywhere in the world. All you need is to have Internet and you can be at a live show. We're gonna have the pictures and all the story, everything that we normally have at a live show. But of course we'll wear costumes and look like idiots because it's Halloween. We can't wait to do that. And it's available for two weeks after the show too. So you can get it. You can watch it 100 times. If you can't watch it the night it comes out, you can watch it the next day or whenever you feel like it. Get in there and do that. Shut upandgivemerder.com also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which is really, really hilarious. We're doing a long one on Billy Martin at this moment in time, a multi parter. And then check out your stupid opinions if you want to hear the funniest reviews on the Internet and us make fun of them. So that's A good time. Check that out. Then get yourself Patreon. You need that. Patreon.com crimeinsports. That's where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get so much. You're going to get first of all hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before. Then that's immediately upon subscription. Then you get new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one Small Town murder. And you get it all. Everybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes sir.

[James Petregallo]

This week, what we're gonna do here for crime and sports, we are gonna talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials where you get to see like a 5 foot 3 R&B singer line up against Shaq down in the paint. That's fun. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Boys to men against the starting lineup of the Hornets.

[James Petregallo]

That's good. No, no. I like to see Gary Payton guarding the lead singer from Belle Biv Devoe. That's what we need to see out there. So we'll talk about that then for Small Town Murder we are gonna talk about Unknown Number, the documentary where the mother can't even imagine why does some crazy shit to her daughter. We'll talk all about that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I got theories.

[James Petregallo]

Why? Oh, we got a lot of theories. We'll get all into that. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get. But wait, there's more. There's more. You also get every show we do. Crime in Sports, your stupid opinions and Small Town Murder all ad free with your Patreon subscription. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. So it's all we can do. We're leaving it all on the table for you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Got a better deal elsewhere, I think.

[James Petregallo]

You can't. You can't. It's impossible. That said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show. We're comedians. We're gonna make jokes. People are also gonna die. You know how does that work? Very easily. We don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But.

[James Petregallo]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real simple. There's plenty to make fun of. We make fun of small towns cause we're all from somewhere that can be made fun of. Who cares? That's easy. We make fun of a bumbling police force, lets a murderer go free and he kills five more people. We'll make fun of them for that. And we make fun of murderers because why not? What else do we have to do? You know, we can't put them in jail or do anything. All we can do is make fun of them. We're comedians, so we'll do that either way. That's how we do it. And if that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be for you, but we might be for you. So give it a shot either way, no complaining later. I think it's time, everybody, to sit back, clear the lungs. Here we go. And let's all shout.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Shut up and give me murder.

[James Petregallo]

Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Pennsylvania this week. We're going.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I've heard of this.

[James Petregallo]

You've heard of Pennsylvania Pottstown? Yeah, I've heard of Pennsylvania. Pray tell of Pennsylvania. Pottstown, Pennsylvania. Yeah. It's been in little things here and there in pop culture. It's got some mentions also comes up now and then. Husk of an old steel town.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Pottstown is like one of those places where they go, you know, you don't want to end up like Pottstown.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was there a song about Pottstown?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, we'll get into that. It's in here. Don't worry about it. Absolutely. We think we're miss songs. Pottstown, Pennsylvania is in eastern Pennsylvania. It's west of Philadelphia, about an hour outside, kind of northwest of Philly. It's about an hour and a half to Harrisburg, which is the other direction, the capital of Pennsylvania. And then 55 minutes to Chester, Pennsylvania. Our last episode there. The angriest serial killer around. That guy was wild. Yeah. This is in Montgomery county. Area code 610 and 484. Can't hold this down. Can't hold it down. With just. With just one area code. Little bit of history here. Iron and steel production that was happening attracted the Potts family, who were iron masters. Oh, yes. They established. That's right. They established a forge and built a big ass house just west of the creek. And John Potts, this is. He founded the town in 1761 on part of the 995 acres that he owned. That's a shitload of land. Wow. It is home of the nation's oldest mill, the Pottstown Roller Mill. Yeah. Which is right next to the Pottstown Roller rink, which is very popular. Yeah. So it incorporated under the name Pottstown in 1815, becoming the second borough in Pennsylvania after Norristown. I don't know the difference between towns and boroughs and all. Every state has a different definition of how they do that, so won't even get into that. The railroad came in 1838. They made an extension of it. And that way they'd have their finished goods. They could get off on the rails. Once that happened, the population grew and the metal production grew. And steel from this borough was used in the Panama Canal and the Golden Gate Bridge.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, that's great.

[James Petregallo]

That's all there. And then the steel industry in America kind of fell apart. And like a lot of Midwestern towns, especially Pennsylvania, basically listen to Allentown from Billy Joel. They're talking about a coal. But it's the same thing. It's the exact same thing. So the jobs went away. People started, you know, started to deteriorate. Not the people, the town, I'm sure the people too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

People too. If you got no job, you got no food.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Now famous people from here. Darrell hall from hall and Oates is from here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There it is.

[James Petregallo]

There you go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's why.

[James Petregallo]

And their album abandoned luncheonette from 1973 pictures features a photo of the Rosedale Diner, which is in Pottstown, which his parents used to take him to when he was a kid. So that's become like a tourist attraction now because of that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, that's great.

[James Petregallo]

And he made songs that mentioned Pottstown and stuff like that. Yeah. Here's some reviews of this town. And they're. They vary. Let's just say that. Here we go. Here's five stars. I think Pottstown is a very decent area to live in. Very, very decent. Very mid, very middle of the road. I just think some areas aren't as safe as others. And the school district is not too good. I believe housing is pretty cheap and it's a solid area. Sounds like a three star review, but that's five stars.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's just how he feels though. This guy doesn't know shit. He didn't look up a single thing.

[James Petregallo]

Hasn'T left his house. He's agoraphobic and he's like, I think this happened. This is why I don't leave the house. This is what I got in my mind.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So here's my solid opinion on that based on that decent.

[James Petregallo]

One star. The town is horrible. New Jersey is so much better. And Brad is from here. Everything about this town is bad and it sucks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Big fan of Brad.

[James Petregallo]

I think this is Brad's friend breaking his balls on niche is what that is. One star. Pottstown is an area about an Hour outside of Philadelphia that I want to get out of. Oh, that's great. It saddens me as I walk to the park or to church and see all the broken down houses, people on the streets without work. I moved to San Diego. However, my mother passes away and brought me back to Pennsylvania.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I gotta come back.

[James Petregallo]

I gotta come back now. She lived in Pottstown, so I moved there to be able to clean her home out. But even now I cannot walk past her apartment building. In fact, I will go blocks out of the way just so I don't have to pass her apartment. I miss her so much. This is one star review for mom dying. That's what this is. Mom died, one star. That's what that is. It has nothing to do with the town.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I miss mother.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, walking by her apartment makes you cry. Don't review the town. What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm gonna go dig up a corpse.

[James Petregallo]

And put her in my arm. Yeah, I was gonna say this is how Ed Game got started. One star. A disgusting, filthy, hoarder ridden town.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, there's a bunch of hoarders.

[James Petregallo]

You can see inside their houses. Dead cats as far as the eye could see. A hoarder ridden town dotted with drug addicts and religious extremists where abusive children, teenagers and young adults run rampant. Wow. Wow. So if they're. Are they fucking kids in the house? That's hoarded, like, I don't know. That'd be hard. It's a lot, a lot to overcome. I got out a decade ago. I will never go back. Okay, why'd you review this 10 years later?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why do you give a shit?

[James Petregallo]

Imagine looking in your rear view that hard and be like, I'm going to tell everyone. Just weird back there sucks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And I need everybody to know.

[James Petregallo]

I need them to know. People in this town. 23,282. So pretty good sized town. Not bad. And a lot of that is too, is. It's cheap. And you can commute to Philly from here. Yeah, it's only an hour away, so that's not bad. It is way more women than men, which is strange for a town of this size. 52.4% women and 47.6% men. Median age here, 35.4. So that's below the national average.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

A lot of times you get towns like this, you get an older crowd. But I think maybe the closeness to Philly is keeping it lower. It's only 40% married here, but 20, almost 25% are single with children, which Is above the national average, too. Race in this town, 65.6% white, 20.3% black, 0.6% Asian, 6.5% Hispanic. Religion is big in this town. 64% religious here, Catholic is a motherfucker. Yeah, it's usually 50, 50. And as you know, here it's 38.5% Catholic. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the north. You bet they're going to be the main group wherever you are. There average unemployment here? Not very. It's a little bit below average, actually. So there's jobs at this point. And with Philly an hour away, it's like, should be able to find something. The median household income here is $52,722 a year, which is well below the $69,000 national average. And the cost of living, 100 is regular, normal. Here it's 114. So more expensive. The housing is the cheapest thing out of all of these. The median home cost here, $297,800, which is less than the national average. But you might be convinced you have to come here. Well, you know what? You can get a hoarder house real cheap.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You might be a rich girl.

[James Petregallo]

You never know. Who the hell knows? We'll find out. If you're a maniac maniac on the floor. You need to move to Pottstown. And we have for you the Pottstown, Pennsylvania real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for $1,240, which is around the national average.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

The first house we have here, it's not even a house. It's a strip of land. It's basically somebody's side yard. I'm gonna show this to you. Exactly how much you get?

[Jimmy Wissman]

How much room is that?

[James Petregallo]

You see this picture house here? House here. See the grass behind the telephone pole? That's. That's the land that's for sale they're selling. That you couldn't build. You could build like a tree fort there. If you put a tree in it, like a clubhouse.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How much trouble are they in financially that they gotta sell off that?

[James Petregallo]

It's like literally a yard sale. 2,142 square feet of land.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Literally a yard sale. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It's crazy. That's all it is. It's 1107 South street in Pottstown. $9,000 for that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

They gave that an address. That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's so weird. You'd think the person next to it would just want to buy nine grand just mortgage it off, pay $8 a month and just. Who cares? Move along. Yeah. That way you have a bigger yard now. Yeah. Next up here, two bedroom, one bath, 1127 square feet. But it's a cute little house. I'll show you here. It's got the brick. Nice little brick with the siding up top.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I love that nice tree out front. That's nice.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. Good. No, very nice trees out there. Landscaping is nice here. It's built in 1938. This house is $259,900.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Just had a $5,000 reduction as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Reduction.

[James Petregallo]

Look at this. The other one too. The land had a $1,000 reduction. It was ten grand. Now it's nine grand. You can get it for two. Let's be realistic here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably this place is on sale the whole town.

[James Petregallo]

You go in there with two cash and plunk it down. They're going to give you that strip of land and then just use it to party and just fuck that neighborhood up. Just party. Then finally, here we have a three bedroom, six bathroom, 3334 or 44 square foot house. It's really kind of a cool house. If you see. I don't like the metal roof so much, but the rest of the house is cool.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, that roof has grown on me. I fucking love those now.

[James Petregallo]

It's not that bad. Look at the kitchen. The kitchen's real cool with the cabinets. Big old island. It's nice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those things don't leak, man. There's nowhere for water to get through.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, that's cool. I don't want to hear it. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I suppose if you got enough room in the attic or insulation up there, then.

[James Petregallo]

Big enough house. This is built in 97. It's on 2 acres. $999,000 million dollars. And it just had a $51,000 price cut.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It was over a million.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. It just happened like three days ago. It had this price cut. So if you want that house, knock yourself out. Things to do in this town.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Let's find out what there is to do. Not a lot, by the way. Not a lot. In terms of organized things. There's stuff to do. It's just. I found the Pottstown. Go 4th. 2025. Go forth like the 4th of July. Because it's the Independence Day. Yeah. Pottstown community celebration. And there's live music, tethered hot air balloon rides.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which you might as well just go to the second story of a building at that point. What's the hey, you're tethered. What are we doing?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, that's the best way to do a hot air balloon, I think.

[James Petregallo]

I guess. But, like, why bother?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That fucker anchored, but yeah, why not?

[James Petregallo]

Why, if all the balloons are in use, too, they just have a ladder you can stand on top of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Find it. Find a construction crane operator.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, there you go. Get a cherry. Pick a saw, Buck. Yeah. Grand Pop Bubbles. I don't know what that is. Inflatables, face painting, food trucks, beer garden vendors and artisans. And a rotary duck race as well. And there's gonna be live music, which they don't say what that consists of. And of course, obviously, a fireworks show to round out the day. They say, heck yeah, Pottstown. Y' all made this one for the books for free. From lounging on the lawn to sky blasting fireworks. It all went down right here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, and all of it was for free.

[James Petregallo]

That's all. For free. And go watch it. And then if you're bored with that, you need to rock a bit. You need to rock. Well, tickets are on sale. I don't know if it's actually happening now or if it already happened, but get ready for a night of high energy. Van Halen classics and deep cuts. Covers not performed by Van Halen, obviously performed by America's number one Van Halen tribute. Oh, boy, there they are. It is. Romeo Delights Van Halen Experience. And I'll show show them to you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my.

[James Petregallo]

They're clearly going with the David Lee Roth era.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Yeah, they have fucked a lot of 1982 women.

[James Petregallo]

They still. Yeah, they clean up in the 55 and over department.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I feel like they're doing all.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they're like. They sing jump just to see which of the ladies can still jump.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Can do it.

[James Petregallo]

And those are the active ones. You want to get with one of those. So, yeah, this is happening in the Sunnybrook Ballroom and. Yeah, September. Oh, looks like we missed it. September 13th, it's over.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, it just happened.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, we missed it. Damn it. I'm sure they'll come to a town near you if you're.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That it's touring like the fucking Renaissance Fair.

[James Petregallo]

You know it. Now, crime rate, what we are interested in in this town here, property crime, almost double the national average. Oh, shit is crazy dangerous.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Steal your shit here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Absolutely.

[James Petregallo]

And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third above the national average also.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy, is it dangerous.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know what is going on in this town with 23,000 people. But they need to chill the fuck out. Pottstown is off the chain. Yeah, Pottsville. You too. Pottsville. Get your shit together.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whole Pottsburgh.

[James Petregallo]

Old Pottsburgh. It was Pottsburg. And then they were like, well, I.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mean, it's a little close.

[James Petregallo]

Sued by Pittsburgh. It was a mess, you know. So let's talk about some murder. What do you say here? All right, let's get into this because holy hell is this a crazy, twisted mess. All right, let's talk about a couple. Let's talk about David and Patricia. Let's start there. Okay, let's start with David Anthony Swinehart. Swine. H, A, R, T. Really? Swineheart. One word. He's born in 1938. And this is going to go down in the early 80s. So he's kind of in the prime of his life at this point. Now. His father was kind of a blue collar guy. His father Harvey, his mother Alice, was a homemaker. He somehow got this thing in his head that he needed to make a lot of fucking money. And that's all it was about. He's definitely. I don't know where he got it. His family wasn't like that. They were just regular blue collar, middle class people. But he was like, no, no, no, I need more. I need more. Now he's got a couple of sisters. He's got a brother named Robert. One of his sisters that'll come into play. One of his sisters will have two sons. And that'll be something that comes up here now in the 1960s, Robert, or I'm David. I'm sorry, Robert's his brother. David started buying properties. This is when Pottstown was still happening. This is when they were still making shit here. And there's still factories. And you know, this isn't like. For some reason, when I picture this town, I picture Slap Shot. I picture the Slap Shot town. Cause it's the same. It's all a bunch of those dying steel towns in Pennsylvania. But they were dying in the late 70s. Like when slap Shot was made. Part of that plot was they were closing down the mill. You know, that was a part. And then the people wouldn't afford to go to the game. So they were going to, you know, fold the team that was part of it. So this is kind of the same thing. But in the 60s, it was still. Something was still going on here. Now he ends up buying a lot of the town, as we'll talk about.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yes. Him and his lady that he meets Here, Patricia, that's going to be his wife. They get married in 1972. She's about five years younger than him. She also came from, you know, middle to lower middle class upbringing. Another, you know, like that. So these two kind of middle class kids are going to make a go of being rich. They're going to try to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, as of about 1973 here, mid-70s, he has really done well for himself. David and Patricia together buying property and such. Yes. He's turned into a real estate developer and he's worth about $20 million by 1973.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What.

[James Petregallo]

Which is big money in 1970. I mean, that's not adjusted for inflation. That's 20 million in 73. Yeah, that's $150 million. I mean, he's really doing well. Apparently he is a workaholic too. He works 18 hours a day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You don't get $20 million without working your fucking balls off.

[James Petregallo]

If you came from nothing and you don't have an education, but you're hustling, you gotta hustle a lot. So he built apartment complexes. That was his main thing. He'd build these apartment complexes and then strip malls he got into. Because that became. This is the time when strip malls started to really come into. Come in to be a thing, basically. So he started building strip malls in the area.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Genius thing that they did with that.

[James Petregallo]

Well, yeah, for a while.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Everything in a park once and get everything.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, it was. But it's. For some reason I got a bad rap after a while. The strip mall.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Because it's. Because it just.

[James Petregallo]

It's an eyesore, obviously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And it's a traffic congesting thing for neighborhoods. Does a lot of things that are negative but. But it does a lot of things that are fucking great for.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just having your drugstore grocery store in one parking lot.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. And some strip malls are very successful and some aren't. Basically we've seen those strip malls where there's 14 stores, two of them are filled.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And you're like, this is a disaster.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Once one gets. Once one's available. It looks like the whole town's dying.

[James Petregallo]

It looks terrible. I remember at 19th and Thunderbird. Yeah. Or 19th and Northern by where I used to live.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus. Way worse.

[James Petregallo]

There was like that subway and there was like a immigration law office in there and everything else was like shut down, shuttered. But they had like signs up from like, you know, typewriter repair, like shit that obviously no one's been there since 1988. You know what I mean? Shoe cobbling and shit like that, like, where am I? Is a mess.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So the sign for the business is still there, but then in the window it screams that giant available.

[James Petregallo]

Available. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And that available banner is like the kiss of death to an eagle.

[James Petregallo]

Bright yellow, looks awful strange.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This business couldn't thrive here.

[James Petregallo]

It says, we can't even get a boost mobile to rent this. This is a mess.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not good.

[James Petregallo]

Not good. So he, David, he owns whole blocks of houses.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he owns a newspaper, a travel agency, apartment buildings and an entire village that he built that he owned. Wow, A whole village he made. Yeah, he's hugely just trying to make money. Trying to, you know, parlay this into that and flip this and build this. And he's got a lot of plates spinning and he really comes out with, like I said, a lot of cash. They have a big house. He's got a private helicopter at one point.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

He's got tennis courts, a swimming pool, a different Life. He had 235 properties in Montgomery county, including St. Peter's Village, which is a 350 acre tourist resort near French Creek State Park. So, I mean, he has got so much going on now. He's very well known around the area as well. Not only because his name is on a million signs for when they're building shit or when shit's for sale or things like that, but he stands out. You could see the guy from space, for Christ's sake.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is he a big guy?

[James Petregallo]

He's a big giant guy. He's £250.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And wealthy.

[James Petregallo]

And wealthy and very, very. The word I'm looking for, very conspicuous. Let's just say in his appearance as a human. He dresses like a shit too. He's real sloppy, really. He'll have his shirt all hanging out of the back, like his front tucked in the back hanging out. He's a mess, this guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And that sticks out.

[James Petregallo]

That's the. Well, that in addition to the fact that he drives this crazy Cadillac, that we'll talk about that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Everybody knows a homeless guy getting out.

[James Petregallo]

Of a Cadillac, getting out of a crazy red Cadillac. It's more than that. We'll talk about it. But yeah, he's got, you know, a big giant house. His wife Patricia, she's wearing furs, fur coats to the grocery store.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

And this is in an area that starts to kind of crumble a little bit. And they're. Yeah, he's getting out of his Cadillac with all sorts of shit done to it. She's walking around pushing her cart with a fur coat on like an asshole.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So there are two couples from Goodfellas after the heist combined into one.

[James Petregallo]

That's exactly what it is. No shit. It's my mother's name. Take it back, take it back. So yeah, she's a big time socialite because he works all the time. So she's a socialite, knows everybody. They're going to have four kids as well here by the early. By like 1981. They range in age from 6 to 17. So they have David. We'll go from oldest to youngest. Kerry is the oldest and then David is two years younger than her. David Jr, I suppose. Then there is Christy, who is like six years younger than David. And then the youngest, who's 11 years younger than the oldest is Michael, who's their youngest. So all these kids, they have Carrie.

[Jimmy Wissman]

David Christie and Michael Kerry.

[James Petregallo]

David, Michael, Christie, yeah. And you know, they have. The kids look great and they're dressed nice and they have social standing and they have huge. She hosts like, throws big elaborate dinner parties. They're really into like the society of the area too. Like they want to be the cool people, obviously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, sure.

[James Petregallo]

All of the exclusive people, all the politicians and lawyers and all that, that's who they hang out with. They vacation in Europe every year. You know how it goes. You know, the lifestyle, Jimmy, I'm familiar. We live it all the time. You know, just got back from Paris a couple days ago, you know, left.

[Jimmy Wissman]

My Cadillac with the bullhorns on the front at the airport.

[James Petregallo]

You know, I keep my boss hog in my driveway so everybody notices it, you know what I mean? Now, David, like I said, 18 hour days, works on the weekends, does everything, family dinner. Phone rings. It's a business call. He's not coming back to dinner. He's involved in that. So he's always kind of on call and he has to be for this. And he loves it. He's a workaholic. He's into this now. He's really just an eccentric guy, though. One employee described him as a quote, comical dresser. Comical, like he's comical funny, not just a slob, but like hilarious. Big shoes, he said.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Almost.

[James Petregallo]

He often wore ill fitting pants with his shirttail hanging out. And he carried around a seltzer bottle to squirt people with. What are we talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Spraying flower on his lapel?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. He also, next to his office, he built his kids a gym right next to the office so they could play. And he also has a pet Tarantula. Why? He's just a weird guy. He's just a weird guy. Now, his car is what he's most known for around town. It is known as, quote, the pimp mobile.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

That's what everyone in town calls it. Late 70s, early 80s. The pimp mobile. One of the cops in town said the pimp mobile. That's what we all called it. Yeah, that's it. He's the cop.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that what it is?

[James Petregallo]

The cop said, it's a Cadillac, a red and white Cadillac. And I'll let the cop describe it. Oh, boy. Quote, he put on these oversized headlights and one of those Rolls Royce grills, you know, like chong. And up in smoke on his VW.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bug, he put a different front end on the car.

[James Petregallo]

He's crazy, this guy. The cop goes on. This guy had money. Nobody could ever figure out why he wanted a car like that. Yeah, he looks like a crazy person, but that's what he wants. Why not buy a Rolls Royce if you're that into a Rolls Royce? Just get one. You have the money, you could do it. He was also known for throwing money around. That's the other thing. Everybody called him a high roller. And he would spend. He would take the people from his office. They'd go for, quote, work trips to Las Vegas and Atlantic City. And he would pay for everybody's everything. There'd be a $500 tab. He'd pick that up, no problem. Other times they'd be in a bar. He'll just buy a round of drinks for everyone in the bar, okay? One employee remembered a night where David had friends. He was entertaining in a restaurant. He invited everybody. This was the inn at St Peter's which is the place that he owns that near. So anyway, people became a little pissed off that his party was making too much noise because he's a big loud guy. So to apologize to everybody, he paid everybody's bills in the entire restaurant.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right, that is pretty good.

[James Petregallo]

Probably cost him 8, 9, 10 grand that night to be a little loud.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He could be himself.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Yeah. A friend of his said he was a hard working businessman who. But on his off duty hours, he was a fun loving man. He enjoyed life to the fullest. And he does enjoy life to the fullest, including the marriage is starting to fall apart here by 1981. Ish. Here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's Dave doing?

[James Petregallo]

Well, it's. They're not getting along because he's never home. I mean, it's not unreasonable to go. Can you not work 18 hours every day? Weekends included.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You gotta assume he's not gonna be home. He's off busy earning $20 million, but you gotta have a ceiling at some point. When can I coast?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

When can I start? With the family time.

[James Petregallo]

And the problem is he's got some issues here. So the marriage is in trouble. David moves out in early 1981. He leaves the house later on. Somebody said there were allegations of infidelity and rumors flying around for a while.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dang.

[James Petregallo]

And somebody who knows the whole thing said, quote, david went to live with his girlfriend, leaving his wife at home with the children. He just found a younger woman, definitely was doing. Yeah, yeah. He just found a younger chick he wanted to hang out with here. It's during this time that there's also a cash flow problem. There's a real estate. There's a bad real estate drop because this is. Interest rates were extremely high. People think they're high now. They were fucking soaring back then. So he had a cash flow problem, and he had trouble sometimes paying his water bills for his properties.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petregallo]

Which is basic minimum. So everybody was talking about, did he overextend himself and shit like that. But he still had cash to throw around when he went out and things like that. But tenants in his apartments complained that he refused to maintain the apartments and houses that he rented out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Slumlord, too.

[James Petregallo]

So now he's turned into kind of a slumlord. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dang it.

[James Petregallo]

So In May of 81, 57 judgments totaling almost $15 million in business loans were filed against him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

In the Montgomery county court by the Red Hill Savings and Loan association of Red Hill. Court records showed that later on in the year, though, by the end of 81, he obtained a release of judgment for all but two of the judgments in exchange for various parcels of property. So he made good with it. He owed people money, but he would. Instead of paying money, that's all they would trade for property and do that. Now, his new girlfriend is named Sarah Sky. S K, Y. Oh, Sarah Sky. And she's young and blonde and hot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It sounds like a girl that Brazzers has under contract.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. Sarah Skye. Definitely.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's definitely a porn star named Sarah Sky.

[James Petregallo]

I'm sure there is. Sara Sky. Yeah, that's too good. If not too easy. Ladies, get on it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, get your fucking.

[James Petregallo]

You're looking up Sarah Sky. Triple X. Is there one that has to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why do I keep typing an E?

[James Petregallo]

You want it to be.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, there is.

[James Petregallo]

There is. Of course there is. Of course there Is that is amazing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One with an eight and one without James.

[James Petregallo]

Perfect. And I doubt it'd be her because she's like 70 years old by now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So, yeah, this girl's probably. Well, she might be too. We don't know. Make any fucking money today.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Who knows? So, yeah, this is. She's, you know, 10 years younger than Patty, so maybe 15 years younger than him, Patricia. So, you know, he's not even trying to hide the affair by the 80 by 81. He's not even doing. He had moved out of the house. He moved in with Sarah. And what he would do is though, every night he would drive to the house on Mauger's Mill Road. That's his house, the family home. He would drive there to have dinner with Patricia and the kids, help with homework, tuck the little kids into bed and then see you later. Back to Sarah's house.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Head on back home. To Sarah.

[James Petregallo]

Head on back home. Yep.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

So that's how this is going. And this went on for months and months and months, which is interesting. She said Patricia said he would often stop home to change his clothes and maybe take a shower before going out for the night. Yeah, he'd like clean for her. He'd leave reeking Apaco Rabanne. Just fucking, you know, CK1 pouring off of him as he walked out the door. Going out to party that night, which is interesting. So Patricia by this time, by the summer of 81, it's a big house and she needs help around this house. Sure. You know, she's got four kids and doing all this shit and she needs kind of. She needs some help around the house. So she calls upon a nephew for help. David's nephew. Oh, he's gone, but you can help me. David's nephew is Thomas Scott Deblaze. D E B L A S E. Deblasi. Deblaze de blas. Whatever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

To blaze.

[James Petregallo]

To blaze. Thomas. He's born November 7, 1958. So 20 years younger than David at this point. He's 23 years old. He was the Pottstown High School star quarterback in high school. Oh yeah. He's, you know, six feet tall and muscular. Didn't do anything with that though. He's the kind of just the atypical like small town quarterback who didn't go anywhere. And then he's working construction two years later. That's. That's what he is. So that's what he does. He works construction. His mother is David's sister. Now he has. He shares kind of the same features as David as well, dark hair and kind of things like that. But he's like a young, trim, muscular, attractive version rather than the 20 years later, shirt tail hanging out of the back of your pants, 250 pound sloppy drunk version. So. But he has no business acumen or motivation or any kind of anything like that. He has no.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's a good hand. He can operate a shovel real good.

[James Petregallo]

He can do that. Exactly. He worked construction like we said, didn't go to college, no prospects, just swinging hammers. And he drinks down at the. The High Point Tavern or High Point Saloon or whatever it's called down on Main Street. That's it. Now, at family gatherings, he said that he started to notice Aunt Patricia was giving him looks, looking him up and down and all that. Then she started calling him to the house for help and he came right over. And then she started confiding in him about old uncle David's affairs, crying on his shoulder, and he of course, comforted her and all that. Now he has an older brother as well, named Jeffrey Todd Deblaze. He's like a year and a half older now. So these two are the two nephews of David. Now in 1981, by the summer of 81, he thinks Patricia's quote, cheating, which is hilarious because he's living with a chicken.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Cheating on him.

[James Petregallo]

He's living with a woman. That's wild. So he thinks a divorce is gonna be coming up soon, David. So he needed proof that Patricia was cheating, so he bugged the house. He put in these tape recording systems that record every call that comes in the house and all that. He puts this elaborate shit. You have to be rich to do this back in 1981 here. And Patricia talks on the phone all the time. So David installed a line activated tape recorder, which by the way, is very illegal in Pennsylvania. But not really if it's your own house. That's the problem.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petregallo]

If it's your own house, it's got a little loophole. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of hard to do that. But David didn't give a shit if it was legal or not. He wanted to get proof that his wife was cheating. So when they got divorced, he didn't have to give her anything. So he ends up getting on tape all sorts of late night phone calls between Patricia and nephew Thomas.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus. Not only is she fucking someone else.

[James Petregallo]

Oh yeah, his nephew.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

His way younger nephew.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they're sitting there, it's real romantic shit. And, you know, explicit plans for what they're gonna do next time they see each other and how they're gonna fuck and.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's graphic shit for sure. Not very good going on here. And in divorce court. Not gonna look great for her.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Mainly because he's a family member. That's the main thing. That looks bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the biggest problem.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing cheating because, you know, he's cheating too. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's not necessarily. It's not. It's not gonna create a genetic issue, but it's going to create some fucking problems on the table.

[James Petregallo]

Uncomfortable Thanksgiving. I'll tell you that fucking much. It's going to be real weird come.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thanksgiving, Easter and Christmas.

[James Petregallo]

Going to be real weird. Holy shit. So Joan Rayner is a friend of David's and said because the divorce was going to be so costly for him, David required leverage. So. October 1981, Patricia files for divorce. Okay. And she is. She. She's got a good lawyer and she wants a lot. She says, I want half of everything. Also the house, alimony, child support. She wanted to title to it. She said she wanted to maintain the lifestyle that his money had provided for them. And he's got four kids he's got to support there. So, you know, then she files all that and then they file a thing back saying, well, he's got no money, so he's broke. He's actually in fuckloads of debt is what he is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, so you can have half of that.

[James Petregallo]

You can have half of nothing is what you can have is what they basically tell him you can have half.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Of worse than nothing. You can have half these bills.

[James Petregallo]

They said the recession killed the property values. The recession of late 70s and really up till about 1985, then for about two years and then another recession. So there was that and the interest rates. Everything else had turned him into shit. Turned his portfolio into shit. The banks are circling like vultures. Yeah, it's not good. They said that he had informed her and her attorneys that he was insolvent and he was receiving a $500 weekly stipend from Red Hill Savings and Loan. To which he owed about $13 million to them. And growing and growing. Yeah. The only asset he had is his life insurance, which is $523,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So he's got. That they would pay out if he dies. But other than that, other than that, you're stuck. You're getting nothing. Yeah, you're really not getting shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's literally broke.

[James Petregallo]

He's super broke in December of 1981. The owner of the Guardian, a weekly newspaper based in Montgomery County City, which is David. He owns this. Him and his two partners sold the Belmont Apartments that he had for $1.7 million in December. So he's trying to get his portfolio at least to where your chin's above water. You know, he's just trying to get there, just be able to breathe a little bit now. January 15, 1982. This is all going on, by the way, during all of this. All of the. I want half of everything and I want the house. And him saying I'm broke. He's still coming over every night. Really still coming over to eat dinner with the kids. Still doing all that kind of shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I guess you gotta. For the kids, keep that shit under your hat.

[James Petregallo]

Until. Until I'd like to talk to a psychiatrist or psychologist about that because I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's good or if that just prolongs this and makes it weirder. I'm not.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I can't believe it. I can't believe it's possible for them.

[James Petregallo]

No. It's been going on for like a year, though. That's. That's a long. I could see that'll weigh on you, but a year is crazy. So this night, January 15th, he showed up for dinner. It's the usual family dinner at the house. 284 Maugers Mill Road. The kids are jacked. Mom, Dad's here. It's great. The kids said too. Mom seemed in a decent mood tonight. Everybody was conversing nice. And there was not that weird tension that's been there a lot of the time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They both were happy about the upcoming Accord date.

[James Petregallo]

This is going to be great. David helped his youngest daughter with her spelling homework, hung out with his teenage son, talked some basketball, told Patricia the pot roast was delicious. Everything was great. Now by 8pm the younger children are in bed. The teenagers are in their rooms, obviously. What is it? 82 with giant headphones on listening to REO Speedwagon, I assume. Probably. So I can think they're doing that. Patricia walks David to the door and says, drive safe. He walks out his red Cadillac there. The Pimp Mobile.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, right up front.

[James Petregallo]

Pimp Mobile is parked in the driveway. Usually he would park in the garage, but he wasn't parked in the garage tonight, so he was parked out front. Now he's supposed to be meeting up with friends, but he never shows up that night. Just hang out with friends, which, I.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mean with Sarah sky, who knows that's what I mean.

[James Petregallo]

He could be doing anything. So they don't think too much of it, but, you know, they call and try to find him. Can't find him. Whatever. Now, the next day, he's supposed to have gone into his office. The next day, Saturday the 16th. That's a Friday, the 15th. On the 15th, that day we just talked about, he left revised insurance papers on his office desk. He told his secretary to meet him back in the office the next day, a Saturday, to help him finish the paperwork, which would, quote, effectively change the beneficiary from Patricia to a trustee for his children on his life insurance.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Building up a trust. All right, good.

[James Petregallo]

Rather than her having it, it would be someone holding it for his kids. Yeah. He never showed up to work Saturday to do this, though.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Imagine you come in on a Saturday because your boss wants you to, and you're like, God damn it, I have to go in to deal with his personal shit, too. This isn't even business. And then he doesn't even show up. You'd be pissed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's all me.

[James Petregallo]

I can't do anything with this. It's his insurance papers. So according to, he never showed up. That's all we know. All we know is the last time he was around January 15, he had left his office, visited his mother for a minute, then drove to his old house, had dinner, and took off. Very normal. So by Sunday comes, and still nobody's heard from David. Now people are starting to get a little bit worried what's going on here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they don't fight. Like, his car isn't where it usually is. His car isn't parked at either the house or at Sarah's house. It's very strange here. Then the 18th comes around. Oh, and it's David's birthday. It's his 44th birthday. So people are trying to get a hold of him. Obviously, Patricia, by this day, he doesn't show up. They have, like, cake for him at the house with the kids. They're all waiting for him to come over for his birthday. They got candles lit and he's not showing up. So they're like, okay, this is weird. So Patricia calls the police and reports David missing. She said he left Friday from this house and never came back. They go to talk to Sarah. She said, I have no idea where he is. He didn't come back Friday. I never saw him Friday. He never came home. So they're like, okay, his office was locked. Oh, so that's safe and secure. Nobody, like, you know, rolled him at his office or anything. His red Cadillac nowhere to be. Pimp mobile gone, nowhere to be found. So it's really odd. So they're looking into it, and they find out that he was expected to meet friends on Friday night, but never showed up. Then he missed several more meetings scheduled for the weekends. And then, obviously, his own birthday party. So that's the point of this. Now, later that day, after he's been reported missing, there's a beat cop named Timothy Morrison. And he was checking alleys in downtown Pottstown, basically looking for homeless people that are gonna die in the cold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, saving some lives.

[James Petregallo]

That's basically what he does, this type of thing. There's not a whole lot going on otherwise. Then behind the Maple street apartment complex, which, by the way, David owns.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He owns that? Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He sees a red and white Cadillac with a Rolls Royce grille on it. Not a lot of those. Yeah, not a lot of those. Rolling around Pottstown. Probably.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably only one in the country, I'm gonna say.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's been there. It's not. Didn't just get there. The windows are completely covered in frost. You know, it's been there for three days in January in Pennsylvania. So this guy approaches and kind of wipes off the rear window, you know, gets some frost out and looks in just to see what's going on here. And he kind of jumps back from the car because what he saw was what looked like a frozen human being on the floor in the back seat on the back.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And there's. He thinks there's blood all over the car, too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

So he says, holy shit. That's out of there. Calls for detectives and people like that. They open up the car, and David is behind the. He's on the floor in the back seat, behind the front seats on the floor. He's wearing a white ski sweater and brown pants that are pulled all the way down, and that's where he is. He is frozen solid, by the way. Solid like Frankie Carbone and Goodfellas. Like, it took them three days to thaw him out. It's that kind of solid, which is crazy. So he's covered in blood, too. There's blood all frozen. Blood all over him. And he's frozen, which is crazy. Pants and underpants pulled down, exposing his ass, basically, sticking up at everybody. They do think that that is as a result of being dragged into the car. I think his pants came down from being dragged under the shoulders there like that. So they perform an autopsy, and they find out that they feel like he Was still alive when he was brought into the backseat floor of the Cadillac. They think he was definitely still alive. They said it's hard to tell a lot of things because he was frozen for three days and there's some stuff. But they say he's been beaten over the head at least six times. Six separate blunt force injuries to the head, and he's been stabbed at least 14 times. Why?

[Jimmy Wissman]

The. Why?

[James Petregallo]

That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, that's a lot. He said that the initial crushing blow to the head would have probably killed him eventually anyway.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

But the rest of it obviously sped it up a little bit. They believe that the beating over the head was with a baseball bat. It's got that kind of characteristics to it. And 14 stab wounds are in the back, side and buttocks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Stabbing a guy in the ass. Now, they estimated he'd been dead for about 20 hours before the body was found, but they said you can't accurately predict time of death because he's frozen solid, which is why the Iceman froze people solid. It was a thing. That's the whole point. The medical examiner said he believed that it had to have been more than one assailant involved because two weapons were apparently used. Two very different weapons. A bat and a knife. So they were saying. And also not only for that, because one person could have bashed him and then stabbed him. But they said he's such a big guy, he would have probably needed two people to get him into the car.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He's, you know, £250. So they said they believe that robbery is not the motive because David still had his wallet with some money in it and change in his pocket. And he was wearing his expensive watch still. Okay, so not robbery or that are terrible at their job.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Robbers or just looking for something very specific. Wanted the Catalytic convertible.

[James Petregallo]

Wanted One Eyed Willie's map to his gold. And that's all. Anything less than that, he's not accepting. So the car, the evidence in the car. There's blood all over the vehicle, not just in the backseat. It's everywhere. So that's interesting to try to piece that together. There's multiple blood types present as well. Oh, so it's not just for all from him. There's fabric fibers that don't match David's clothing. So from the assailant or assailants. And snow and dirt is in the car inconsistent with the alley it's located in, Meaning it was driven from somewhere else that was like snow and dirt that were on his shoes. And on David elsewhere. Elsewhere. So he was drug into the car somewhere else, Driven here, they're thinking. Now, remember, it's 1982. No DNA testing. Sure. The forensics are minor. Now there's touch DNA. This is like.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who even knew?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean, if this was then, like, let's say this was 25 years ago. Bryan Kohberger, they wouldn't even have talked to him. Probably they might have because his car was driving around a lot, but they wouldn't have had anything to arrest him on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And the cell phone stuff would be weird, but that's all that they would.

[James Petregallo]

Be able to arrest a guy on. For murder? Fuck no. So that's what I mean. That touch DNA, that is brand fucking new.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's amazing.

[James Petregallo]

10 year old technology.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We don't even care about your fingerprint at this point.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, who cares? Yeah, screw your fingerprint.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't care.

[James Petregallo]

Back then, all they had was fingerprints and blood types. That's it. And they have no fingerprints, so they think whoever did this wore gloves. Which would make sense too, because it was January at night. So everybody's wearing gloves. Pretty much, yeah. Now they go into the investigation of who the fuck could have done this, and the first thing they think is, does he have any enemies? Do you think a fucking ruthless real estate developer who owns a newspaper has no enemies? I don't think so. He's got a shitload of enemies. Yeah, it's like Omar said in the wire when his boy got killed. He said his enemies got enemies. That's where we're at with David.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mo money, mo problems. And you got 20 million in the 70s, you probably got 20 million enemies.

[James Petregallo]

And you owe people money now. And you have how many tenants that someone might have a hot water heater you didn't fix on time? There is a million reasons for murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

People have moved out and still hate him.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, an investigator said, quote, enemies we could fill city hall with. People who hated David Swinehart. That's not good, that's bad. They said, shit, they were even. They said they were interested in a couple of particular enemies of his that had, you know, tenants and people like that. People that did business deals with him that didn't work out, that had threatened him and shit like that. So that's a bad place to start. Half the town hates him. Okay, that's not good. Then they also have to suspect Patricia, too, because she's got the financial motive because she's not getting a goddamn thing. And now if he's dead, she gets $523,000. So a little bit different. This is an investigator. They talked to Patricia right away, and she told an investigator, quote, he told me divorce was inevitable. He didn't love me and I didn't love him. We would ha. But we would handle it like adults. She was saying, look, we knew we were getting divorced, but we decided to not be dicks and not fuck the kids up about it. Yeah. Yeah. So these are all within a few days. She has three different police statements here. She professed complete ignorance when asked about the crime. I have no idea who killed him. That's. She said, I quote, I can't imagine anyone doing anything like that. And at some point, she asked the interrogators, what happened. Can you tell me what happened? I don't even know what happened. She said, what exactly? What were his injuries and things like that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's asking the right questions.

[James Petregallo]

Those are all the right questions to ask. Absolutely. But January 20th. Now, this is less than 48 hours after his body's found. They also want to execute a search warrant. And they don't say it's to try to pin Patricia up, but it's also just to see if there's anything they can glean from his professional papers or anything like that. So they do a search warrant at the house that Patricia's living in now. And what they find is not so much in the house, it is outside the house. Well, they do end up finding blood in the bathroom of the home. Okay, but that is very tricky. I challenge anybody to go over your bathroom with a DNA crime scene crew and not find your blood in there. Your blood is in there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Any blood. That's crazy. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Your blood is in your bathroom. Everybody's is. You've cut your samples.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If I change to razor, it's a blood bath in there.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, dude, it's. It's. We've all done it. It's bad. So that's kind of. They don't really know much about that. But they find blood outside the house next to the garage in the snow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

They find bloody snow out there. How much really pops the red on the white. You know what I mean? And it's type O blood, which is David's blood type. So we know that, but we can't find no DNA yet, obviously. And 45% of the population is O positive, so could be anybody, really. But still, they find blood next to the garage. That's something to go on. Now, they asked Patricia about. She said, no, I don't know anything. She Said, who would do this to David? He had no enemies, which we know isn't true. She said that. They said, well, what about. There's blood. All this blood. And she said, oh, yeah, David cut himself when he was fixing the garage door last week. That's where blood came from. That's where those drops came from. And then they said, well, you know, you hadn't seen him for a weekend. What happened there? And she said, well, I assumed he was with his girlfriend. And she said, we were working things out for the children. And she didn't mean working them out like get back together, but they were working out the whole situation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, keeping it civil for the kids, that's all.

[James Petregallo]

Now there's a funeral, obviously. It's at the St. James United Church of Christ. Hundreds of people are there. Everybody knows this guy. Huge, giant thing. It's all the elite business people and the politicians and everything like that. They're all there. Lawyers. You're that rich in that small town with that many real estate deals. You know every lawyer in town.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Absolutely.

[James Petregallo]

All those people. Patricia stood at the casket dressed in all black with the children beside her, greeting everybody and taking condolences from everybody, like that. Thomas and Jeffrey are there as nephews as well. They're all there standing with the family, being supportive, everything like that. She, the youngest girl, placed a drawing near the casket, a stick figure of the family that says, I love you, Daddy, in crayon. That's heartbreaking, she said. Patricia said, now let's make everybody cry and put that shit out on the thing that'll break your heart.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And uno, for sure.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the point in a funeral. When I saw a very hardened Mafia gangster cry at a funeral because a.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Little girl, for Christ's sake. There's a kid's drawing.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it was wild. Yeah. I offered him a tissue. He goes, I haven't cried in years. I'm fine. And then two minutes later, he goes, give me one of those anyway.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Terrible.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it was sad, dude. It was sad. So then they look at his lawyer. Stephen J. Proctor tells homicide detectives, at the time of his death, David was in the process of cutting Patricia out of the life insurance because the cops didn't know that till then. And reverting all his life insurance proceeds to a trust for his children. They said he was killed literally that weekend is when we were doing the paperwork. Yeah, because remember, he had it on his desk to take care of it on Saturday. So they were like. We were finishing it. They also. So they were like, so this is the day before he was to write his wife out of his insurance deal. Now, on one hand, that looks very bad for Patricia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure does.

[James Petregallo]

But on the other hand, how the fuck would she know that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right. He's just doing that in secret.

[James Petregallo]

So that's the other thing. So, yeah, obviously, if you proof that she knows that. Yeah. You wouldn't throw that right in her face and then go for dinner. That's gonna be an uncomfortable dinner. That pot roast is gonna be a little tough that evening, if you know what I mean. So then police, while searching everything, including David's car, his law, his lawyer had some stuff that he handed over to the police, too. And they actually find a recorder itself. Through all these tapes, they find all the tapes. Oh, Patricia and Thomas talking.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They had no fucking idea that that was going on until then. None. They were like, oh, what is this about? Who is this?

[Jimmy Wissman]

They're gonna do what to his balls?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God. Gee, how did they use jizz back in 82? I guess they did. I guess that word was very common. So they're like, well, we don't like that at all. That's a shady thing. Because obviously he was taping her. That means he knew about it. So that could have caused some strife.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or suspected, at minimum.

[James Petregallo]

Totally. So they talked to nephew Thomas here, and this is kind of a couple days after the murder. They've really found. Put everything together pretty quick. Within a few days. They have a lot of. Kind of. Kind of structure. A real basic structure of, okay, who's involved with who and what's. Because you have to kind of put a family tree together and everything to figure out who could have done this. Now, they talked to Thomas. He denied any involvement or knowledge of the murder. Obviously, he said that, yes, I did have a romantic liaison with Aunt Patricia, though.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He said, aunt Patricia.

[James Petregallo]

I hope he did. I really hope he did. He probably called her that. Yeah. He said, but I didn't kill anybody. Yeah, I was banging my aunt. But, you know, what the hell? So he then says, it's all I'll tell you. I was banging her. I didn't have anything to do with the murder. I'd like an attorney. I'm not answering any more questions.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good answer.

[James Petregallo]

Which is fine. I gave you the answer, the things you need to know. Now leave me alone. But then shortly after that, he does a second one. They give him Miranda warnings, and he's pretty much does the same thing. Had an affair with her, didn't kill him. Like a lawyer. That's it. Then they end up giving him a polygraph test. Okay. Which I'm not sure of the results of because in court documents it's not admissible. So that's. So it's. A cop basically has to leak it later or something's the only way you're gonna know. But they give him a polygraph test now, March 6, 1982. That's when they're really looking over how broke he is, how broke David actually was. In papers filed in Montgomery County Orphans Court. Orphans court?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What is that?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. Court for orphans.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The orphans get their own.

[James Petregallo]

That's how they get anything, man. What do you think? These orphans have a whole. They need a court, man. Without this, they have nothing. No one's paying attention to the orphans. It's a hard knock life for them. So he says that his estate is insolvent and all assets of the estate have been required to pay taxes and estate administrative expenses. So no matter what will there was, there is nothing left in the state. It's a wash. Wow. Yeah, so they said. Records show his holdings, including the historic St. Peter's Village in Chester county, once totaled 20 million, but now his debts are about 20 million.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

So really, he had a $40 million swing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

He went from up 20 to down 20. That's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He had 20, spent it all and spent 20 more.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. It's crazy that you have to have 20 to be able to get 20 more, though, to owe anybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right. And he did that because. He did that based on property value. Property value plummets. Now he has nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. That's why real estate's a motherfucker. You never know as forces outside of you. So the will that he had dated August 24, 1981, called for nearly all of the estate to go into trusts for the four children he left his wife. An amount exactly equal to the amount of my estate to which she would have been entitled to if I made no provision for her. Under state law, a widow not provided for in a will may claim one third of the estate. So if you're married to someone, you die no matter where you gave your money to, she can claim a third of that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Which makes sense because you're married, which means that some of that's hers, too. Sure. It's an equal thing. So in addition to the St Peter's village, he owns several travel agencies, apartment buildings and other properties in the area, including the weekly Guardian newspaper published in Pottstown 35 of his other properties were auctioned off earlier in the year here to satisfy $12 million in debts to the Red Hill Savings and Loan. So they're trying to square his account Basically, now, April 1982. Okay. Few months later. Remember, he has a brother, Robert. David does. It's his younger brother Robert. What a weird guy. What a strange family. David is this crazy eccentric pimp, mobile driving, real estate mogul. His brother's a big game hunter.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, is that right?

[James Petregallo]

A big game hunter? Yes, which is very, very weird. He idolizes his older brother David, by the way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Big game in fucking Pennsylvania. Or he leaves.

[James Petregallo]

No, he goes to Africa to kill big game with a bow and arrow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He hunts very big animals with bow and arrows.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dropping giraffes with a bow.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking insane. Yeah, that's crazy. Some of his African exploits and the safaris with a bow and arrow. Appeared in the newspaper in 1966. Describing his killing of an elephant. Rhino, lion, leopard, sable, antelope, zebra and cape buffalo, all with a bow and arrow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He took an elephant with a bow and arrow.

[James Petregallo]

You gotta hit a bow. You could kill a rhino with a bow and arrow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Their skin alone should break that shit.

[James Petregallo]

I don't even know. I don't even know how you would do that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But that's a lot of bows.

[James Petregallo]

Or why you want to. To be honest with you, I don't know. But people are crazy. And back then, there wasn't. There wasn't an animal rights movement. Really.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You almost got to blot out the sun with the arrows to take down a fucking elephant. Right.

[James Petregallo]

It has to be like a whole volley of rain. Yeah. Like whatever happened to Custer has to happen there, you know? Serious shit. Now, the Pottstown police chief says that Robert here has had some mental health problems.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

Especially since his brother died. Said he's been having a hard time. People said that Robert couldn't sleep, he couldn't eat. He kept saying that he should have protected David. He said he knew something was coming. He should have protected him. He said he should have seen it coming. Everything he said, he blamed himself for not intervening in all of this that happened. It's all his fault. So what he did was one Monday afternoon. He went to one of the properties that David owned. Swinehart Building, I guess. Robert had been admitted to the Philadelphia Veterans Hospital with his mother's assistance. About the time that David was murdered. A little bit afterwards, he was home on his first furlough. And was supposed to return to the hospital Monday evening. So Instead, Monday afternoon, his mom dropped him off at the Swinehart building in the mid afternoon because he wanted to look for some of his personal belongings that he had stored there. Sure. He never returned, so she sought help to find him. They found him in a storage closet with a self inflicted rifle wound. Blew his brains out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh my God.

[James Petregallo]

In his brother's storage closet in his brother's office. Yep. That was one of the things he had in there was a rifle, one of his hunting rifles. And he turned it on himself. And he left a suicide note that says simply quote, can't live with the guilt.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus. Feels terrible he didn't protect him.

[James Petregallo]

Yep, that's. And it's his younger brother, some even his older brother. So that's crazy. It's around this time that Thomas, the nephew, nephew Thomas, we'll call him, receives a target letter, which target letter summons him before the grand jury and advises him of his right to counsel. He appears before an investigating grand jury, represented by counsel. So this is basically an inquiry. When they can't figure out what's going on, they'll do a grand jury inquiry. Because you're under oath in front of the grand jury. So that's what it is. If you're in an interrogation room, you're not under oath. You can lie all you want. It's. That's not illegal, that's fine. But when they get you on the stand in a grand jury now it's illegal to lie to them. You hurt the cops feeling, that's another wire thing. You lie to us, you hurt our feelings. You lie to them, it's perjury. It's one of those things. So he appears before that. Nothing comes of this grand jury inquest. By the summer, the investigation is going absolutely nowhere.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nowhere.

[James Petregallo]

They're stuck, stalled out, stuck in the quicksand. Man. Spinning wheels. Patricia had stopped talking to cops. They had tried to talk to her a bunch of times. She had taken a polygraph test and then she lawyered up. And that was it. She got a guy named Frank DeSimone who was one of Pennsylvania's best criminal defense attorneys. And he told her, you don't say shit. And she said, I don't say shit. Thomas has an alibi. His brother has an alibi. The wife fuckers, they have bar receipts and witnesses who'd seen them around town that night, though nobody could because everybody was out drinking. Nobody could pin down exactly what times they saw them. But they were like, yeah, I saw. Definitely saw them that night. Around the area, they have wiretap recordings that David made, but they're inadmissible. You can't bring that into court. So you can't arrest anybody based on that because you can't use that in court. So that's bad. They never found any kind of murder weapon, a knife or a bat. So they really have nothing at this point?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely ugats to go on. There's a detective who says he knew Patricia was involved. In his heart, he said, I thought she was involved. He said his gut, his 30 years of police work told him that this is a family thing. This is not an outside deal. All the stabbings, all that, it's too personal. It's not business. But he said, I can't fucking prove anything. I have no proof whatsoever. Case goes cold. Case is totally cold here. We got nothing and nowhere to go and nothing to build on. So Patricia collects the $523,000 insurance payout.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

She kept the house, kept the cars.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who else is going to drive it?

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Kept. You know, she's a grieving widow, going around, you know, just doing all of that dressed in black for a while, the whole deal. Thomas, nephew Thomas still came around being the helpful nephew. Let me help you fix the deck. No, let me help you change that light bulb. Let me help you with that pussy. There's a lot of healthy things going on around there. Yeah. So let me help you with those underwear. They're up too high. Let's take them down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let me help you off with those panties.

[James Petregallo]

Let me help you off with those panties. Come here. So sometimes he'd stay late. Sometimes he'd stay over, sleep over. The neighbors would be whispering, but, you know, they all felt bad because she's a widow and they didn't want to say anything bad, like inappropriate about her. So they were like, well, maybe he's just helping her out, this young guy. Maybe he's just a real nice guy and really loved his uncle. Then In November of 1983, Thomas's brother Jeffrey, David's other nephew, he's the older brother, too. Thomas is younger than Jeffrey. He's a mess, by the way. He has nothing going for himself. He's 25 years old, going absolutely nowhere. He's working, like, odd jobs and doesn't have even a regular job. He gets in bar fights all the time. He's got a criminal record for a bunch of petty thefts and shit like that. He's just trash. Jeffrey's trash. And for some reason, they decide to bring Jeffrey in and sit him down in an interrogation room. This is almost two years after the murder. So what the hell they decide. I think he's the weak link, which a lot of times.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's talk to him.

[James Petregallo]

Let's talk to him. They're questioning him one hour, two hour, three hours. Now they're questioning him about an unrelated burglary charge. That's why he's in the office. But they're questioning. They didn't want to bring him in to talk to him about the burglary. They were like, that's an excuse to bring him in. We want to talk to him about David Swinehart. So the detective here, he said, they're talking about this burglary. They're going through all this. And then he says, out of nowhere, quote, jeffrey, we know about David Swinehart. We know you were involved, but we also know you weren't the mastermind. You help us, and we'll help you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Threw an accusation in there.

[James Petregallo]

Not even an we know not accusation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We already know it was.

[James Petregallo]

Listen, we know you're involved, but we're aware. We know you're not the mastermind. So we're not looking to really crucify you. You help us, and we'll keep you out of trouble.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We've got some info. Leave you guessing what info we have.

[James Petregallo]

It took about Jeffrey, looked at them for about two seconds and then started singing like a fucking bird.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Singing his ass off. He's got a lot to say about the whole thing. And we'll get into what he said. He said his brother Thomas was involved, and it was him and Thomas, and there's these two other guys, and there's all this big thing. And they said, okay, you talking to us, telling us means absolutely nothing. Do you have a murder weapon? No. Okay, do you have this? Do you have that? Okay, do you have anything with your brother's fingerprints on it? No. Okay. See, what you're telling us now is useless. You might as well be saying it out of your asshole like Ace Ventura. It doesn't matter. So they said, you're gonna wear a wire. That's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go undercover. So nephew Jeffrey says, okay, I'll wear a wire.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'll do it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So that's what he's gonna do. To record conversations between him and his brother. That's what this is. They want his brother to say something incriminating. So for the next four months, what, every time he sees his brother, he's got a wire on. It's recording.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Boy, Four months.

[James Petregallo]

Everything, family gatherings, Thanksgiving dinner, meeting up at the bar. Just total asshole. He's doing disgusting. So the state has to follow protocols here. They had to get the district attorney approval, written consent from Jeffrey. A limited scope only conversations between the brothers, nothing else. And no recordings in Thomas home unless they get a warrant. Which is weird because it doesn't matter. It's his voice. You're getting nothing. It's a strange. That's a strange. That's just to make sure. That's one of those. Just so it doesn't get thrown out. We'll make sure to get a warrant for.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Make sure there's nothing environmental that happens in there that get it tossed something.

[James Petregallo]

Well, also, if they would say somehow, like he had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his own home.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which I mean, you do for search and seizure, but a wiretaps a different thing. It's a gray area that they figured, let's make it not so gray. So they end up getting some interesting shit on here. This is from November 83 to March 84. Here is one from the tavern that they're hanging out at the bar. Jeffrey says, and this is so funny. Whenever there's someone like on a wire trying to bring up a past crime, it's never natural, it's never casual as fuck.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They're always like, hey, so remember that time we did this knockoff? We knocked off that casino?

[James Petregallo]

First line. Jeffrey says, you ever think about that night?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jeffrey?

[James Petregallo]

Jeffrey, you idiot. Thomas says, what night?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why are you wearing a wire?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, get up. I'm patting you down right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Throw in the trash, you son of a bitch.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. These guys aren't Italian, I'll tell you that much right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You ever think about that night? Why you snitching motherfucker.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, who you fucking talking to? Is there a cop in here?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hey, fuck you.

[James Petregallo]

Is there tearing his shirt off. Where is it? Where's the wire? So, yeah, what night is Thomas's response? Because this is two and a half fucking years later. Two years later.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So what night last week. What are we talking about? Jeffrey says, you know what night?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Thomas says, we don't talk about that. Yeah, rather than saying, I don't know what you're talking about, he says, we don't talk about that. Then rather than Jeffrey backing down a little bit, maybe trying another angle, Jeffrey says, patricia's still paying you. Oh, Thomas response. Shut up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Shut the fuck up.

[James Petregallo]

Shut up. Don't talk. There could be anybody listening.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why do you keep making me say things that are incriminating.

[James Petregallo]

Why is that? So that's December 83rd. January 84, in Jeffrey's car. Jeffrey says, the cops came around again. Thomas says, about what? Jeffrey says, uncle David. Oh, even worse, they call him Uncle David.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Did they solve it yet?

[James Petregallo]

Well, Thomas says they got nothing. Oh, Jeffrey says, you sure? And Thomas said they'd have moved by now if they did.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it's almost three years. Why are you talking about it?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, stop talking about it. That's the problem, though. You can't ever be comfortable with getting away with murder again. Go back to the wire as Bunk says, murder, stay murder, stay murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And then all of this keeps coming back.

[James Petregallo]

It'll keep coming back then. February 1984, outside of Patricia's house, they're talking. Jeffrey says, she looks good for a widow. To which Thomas says, watch your mouth. I'm fucking her. You shut up. Jeffrey says, I'm just saying, 523 grand buys a lot of happiness. And Thomas says, quote, you got your cut. Oh, like, don't complain you got your cut. And Jeffrey says, not enough. And Thomas says, quote, you want to end up like Uncle David? Oh, now, none of these are. I murdered him. And it was wonderful. But it's all. There's. We know where the fuck to look. Now, there is a lot of smoke. There's a big fire in there somewhere. You know what I mean? So then they said. Went on where? Thomas says, the only thing you have to worry about is what I gave you. That's if you're sure that's taken care of. You burnt that, right? That's what he says. Well, Jeffrey says, with the clothes in it. And his brother says. Thomas says, yeah. And Jeffrey says, with the blood, the pants in it and the rope. Everything's gone. Yeah, okay. Thomas said, well, no. And begins saying something, but then he's interrupted. And Jeffrey says, the only thing that's still not gone is that is the money. I still have that buried. What should I do with that? And Thomas says, oh, spend it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get rid of it.

[James Petregallo]

Don't hold on to it. Fucking spend it. Yeah, they're not looking for serial numbers on it. What are you talking about, you idiot? Who would. Who. Why would you bury that? That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life.

[Jimmy Wissman]

When it's buried, it becomes useless. Eventually. You gotta put that stuff into the system.

[James Petregallo]

Also, yeah, also it looks really suspicious that you buried a bunch of cash out in the yard. That looks suspicious to me.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Anything buried looks suspicious Less than it's a body in a fucking park or the family dog. Yeah, right, right.

[James Petregallo]

That's it to be put down. Otherwise it's suspicious as shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes.

[James Petregallo]

So that is late 83, early 84. Nothing comes of this, though. They get all these recordings, but it's nothing. That's enough to really have anything to take him to court with. There's enough to arrest him, you know, he's involved, but definitely not enough to convict him with this. That's not gonna convict him. So then 1985 comes around.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. Terry Lee Mount. M A U T E. Terry with a Y. He's born in 1956. He's a small time local shitheel criminal. Just a dirt bag, check forger, thief, petty theft kind of guy. Just. That's the type of guy he is for years in this area. Now an inmate from a county jail, the York County Jail, approaches the police and says, there's this guy named Terry Mount or Mott, that told me some crazy shit that you guys might want to talk to him about.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

So you should probably talk to Terry Mount now. Terry Mount, they talk to him and he goes, I know what you're speaking of, but I can't tell you anything really. I don't really know anything, but I know somebody who does.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And that is, you need to talk to Neanderthal man. That's who you got to talk to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Neanderthal man.

[James Petregallo]

Neanderthal man is a guy's nickname. Neanderthal man, all right, Captain Caveman. That is literally this man's nickname. He said, you need to talk to Arthur hall, better known as Neanderthal Man. That's what we all call him. He's a big, giant, 300 pounds, kind of a dirtbag bouncer at this bar they all hang out at. He's born in 1957. He's just in and out of county jail. One of these guys, dirtbag, armed robbery. He's been related to or arrested for thefts, robberies, drugs, you name it, all that bullshit here. So May 10, 1985, they decide, we're gonna talk to old Neanderthal and see what he has to say.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

So they do. They've been heard from this Terry Mount, that this is the guy to talk to. So they get him in there. This is giant guy, like, whoa, what the fuck? And he's there. So they tell him, listen, cooperation is going to go a long way with you. They are. They said without it, they said you could be looking at the electric chair. Oh, oh, yeah, you could be Taken away from your family, put in the electric chair. He said, these things could happen. Sure, these things could happen. So at this point, he starts. He admitted he's a drug dealer and all this type of stuff. We don't care about that. Doesn't matter. Deal all the drugs you want, doesn't give a shit. They said you've repeatedly lied, you've denied any involvement in all of this. It's at this point with the electric chair and all this pressure, Neanderthal man breaks down and gets emotional, according to the cops. And he says hall tells them it's time to come clean. He said, it's time to come clean. He said, I gotta do it. And he said, I got information about a murder, the Swinehardt murder. And they go, we fucking know that. Let's hear it, buddy. What did we do here? What the fuck happened? So he said it was November of 81, a couple months before the murders. He said Thomas was sitting. Nephew Thomas, sorry, sat nursing a beer listening to his older brother Jeffrey complain that he was broke. Jeffrey had very little going on for himself. And basically their uncle David had all these millions of dollars and they had nothing. So they were talking about that. At one point, Thomas tells his brother, Patricia needs help. And Jeffrey said, what kind of help? Thomas said, the kind of help that pays money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

So Jeffrey said, well, I'm always interested in that. Yeah. So at that point, I guess both the brothers, the Deblays brothers, and Terry Mount all approach Arthur hall, here, Neanderthal man. They approach him and he's working at the bar as a bouncer. And they asked him, will you help us in a robbery? This is right up Neanderthals alley. So he says, shit, yeah, I'll help with a robbery. So he said, the four of us made a plan to go to the home that Patricia and David lived at. He said we met at the High street Tavern around 8:30pm on January 15. He said, the De Blaise brothers, me, Terry Mount. Thomas got a phone call, I'm guessing from Patricia. He said it was time. Oh. We drove to the house in Thomas's green pickup, parked down the street, walked up to the property. Jeffrey had a baseball bat. Thomas had a knife. You see where this is going? He said Jeffrey jumped out of the shadows with his baseball bat and started wailing on him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

He said the first blow caught David in the back of the head, Dropped him down to his knees. Nailed him, he said, up to going into it. Hall said he thought it was a robbery. The whole time. He Said that Jeffrey on the way over there had told him, if he gives me a hard time, you know, I'll fucking kill him if he gives me a hard time. Thomas had replied, that would eliminate all of our problems, all of us and mine and hers.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So hall was like, I don't like the way that sounds. He said, so he said they, you know, he said it was the brothers who committed the murder. They hid in the bushes near the garage until he came out. They jumped out. Jeffrey hit him in the head with a bat. He screamed and fell down in the driveway. And Jeffrey kept hitting him in the head with a bat. He said this while Thomas. Then Thomas took the bat and started hitting him while Jeffrey started stabbing him. Sure. Okay, so there's blood everywhere. Obviously Thomas is hitting him. Altogether seven blows to the skull, but he's still alive. That's when Jeffrey has a 10 inch hunting knife.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

And stabs David in the back a few times. And wherever he could. He's just stabbing all around and there's a coat on and all that kind of thing too. Arthur lay also said then Terry kicked him because Terry Mount is there too. And said, make sure the son of a bitch is dead. Blood pooled in the snow. He's like, there's steam rising from knife wounds. It's creepy shit now, he said. Arthur said when Jeffrey hit him from behind, just destroyed his skull. Thomas jumped in, took the bat, kept swinging. Then Jeffrey started stabbing. It was butchery, he said. Then they searched his pockets, took his wallet, made it look like a robbery, but left an expensive watch and also more cash on it that they didn't find. So then after rifling his pockets, they said, make sure he's dead. And hall said then they loaded him into the Cadillac and that he and Jeffrey drove away to dump them car and the body. So it was hall and Jeffrey driving in the Cadillac with David in the back seat there. So they said Terry Mount and Thomas left in the truck. Obviously that's parked down the street. Hall said, I drove the Cadillac to the alley with Jeffrey. He kept stabbing him during the drive like he couldn't stop. He said that he reached into the back seat and started stabbing him again, saying, you didn't like our family anyway. Okay, so they left him in the backseat of the Cadillac. Jeffrey kept stabbing his body, leaving more blood evidence all over the car. They left it in an alley behind one of his own apartment complexes in Pottstown. And there was that now. Then they scattered. Thomas went back to hang out with Patricia And Jeremy went back to the bar to establish an alibi. And Mount and Arthur hall just went about their business as well. So May 11, the very next day, Thomas and Jeff are arrested. And Terry, too, they end up finding as well. Jeff is already in custody. They bring in Thomas. Now. They had apparently a lot of luck. Just before 3am on their way to look for Thomas. They were literally going to like, check out that bar, check out this place he hangs out at. I heard he hangs out with a chick over here. They stopped at 7:11 to get cigarettes. The cops did. And as they were walking into the store, here's Thomas walking away from the counter. And they were like, oh, all right, there you are. You're under arrest, asshole. Perfect. We were just going out looking for you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So he's charged with. He just said, I wanted my lawyer. That's all he would say. He's charged with homicide, robbery, theft, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, aggravated and simple assault, recklessly endangering another person, possession of an instrument of crime, and criminal conspiracy. That's a lot. Uh, Terry was picked up. Jeff was already in custody because he was state's evidence at this point. Terry was picked up at a girlfriend's house in Lower Pottsgrove Township. And Arthur was. Was already in jail on that robbery thing, that beef burglary or whatever it was. He's transferred from a county jail into protective custody now because he told. So the press is like, is that it? You arrested four fucking people and we didn't even. Who are these people? What's going on?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's going on?

[James Petregallo]

Are there more? And the police said that there is a fifth suspect, possibly a woman. Possibly a woman. They said no motive that we could make public. They just said this was a long, arduous, difficult investigation. It took more than three years. And there were as many blind alleys in this thing as you could possibly conceive of. Why do they have to do that? He was found dead in a fucking blind alley. Why do they do. Too many holes in the whole thing. Too many gaping wounds in this thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't like it.

[James Petregallo]

They can't help it. It's. Dude, it's every show we do.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We've been beating up this one for a while now. A lot of holes in it.

[James Petregallo]

A lot of holes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why do they always say something.

[James Petregallo]

Something that relates to. I swear to God. It's just that you can't help it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's got to be a mental thing somewhere. Yeah, they have to have to bring it up.

[James Petregallo]

It's like why you thought Flipper played for the Dolphins.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You know what I mean? It's the same thing. Flipper Anderson plays. It's just your brain's making. Looking for connections to make things make sense.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A map.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's too much of a question.

[James Petregallo]

Your brain's always looking to put shit together to solve puzzles, whatever it is. And they'll make a puzzle out of nothing. Now Patricia. The brothers are going to be awaiting trial in the Montgomery county prison or jail. Patricia attended the hearing for the Jeffrey and Thomas playing the widow, saying, my husband. These guys did it. When reporters asked for comment, she dabbed her eyes with a handkerchief and said, quote, I just want justice for David.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who doesn't?

[James Petregallo]

She just. We all want justice for David at this point. June 1985, the wiretap wars start.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

This is gonna last over a decade. The wars over the wiretaps.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What? Really?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. His attorney, Samuel Stretton, filed to suppress all evidence from the body wire recordings from Jeffrey. And the illegal wiretapping of Patricia's phone from David said, none of this is about it. The wiretap suppression. The Pennsylvania law on the. The phone one was. Was clear. That's suppressed. Yeah. Even though he was dead, his illegal recordings couldn't be used. But the body wire was different. And this began a huge fucking thing that went all the way to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

In June of 85, Judge Horace Davenport presided over the defense, arguing that Thomas's Sixth Amendment right to counsel had been violated. He asked for a lawyer during his initial questioning. Any evidence gathered after that request should be inadmissible. The prosecution countered that Thomas hadn't been arrested or charged when the body wire recordings were made. No formal proceedings had begun. The Sixth Amendment didn't apply to him at that point. The judge suppressed everything. Both wiretaps? Yes, both of them. Jeffries don't bring any of this shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Not allowed to do it. It's at that point that they offer Thomas a deal. Because it's going to be hard to convict him without the wiretap shit. Because it looks like co conspirators blaming each other at that point. So they offer him five to 10 years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

As a plea. Huh?

[James Petregallo]

As a plea. Five to 10 years and you testify against Patricia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And he said, no, fuck you. I'm good.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Five to ten with a murder rap hanging over you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. So. September 1985, they take Jeffrey despite his cooperation. This is the wildest thing out of everybody in this. Jeffrey has it the worst out of all these people, okay, he not only was the only one to admit to anything for a long time, he actually cooperated with the police. Wore a wire for four fucking months around everywhere. Did all of this. And they go, they're going for the death penalty on him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

I'm like, what?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thank you for the info. We're about to murk you.

[James Petregallo]

That is wild. Can you imagine?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's fascinating. We've heard of it once before, but it was like something really bad.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, really, really bad. This guy's like kind of your second string murderer in this case. It's weird. So they have Arthur Hall's testimony. They have Jeffrey's own confession in this, which they told him they were gonna.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Help him out, right?

[James Petregallo]

This is not helping him out at all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

End this faster.

[James Petregallo]

And they allow the body wire recordings in Jeffrey's trial. So he can. He's the guy who made them to. He only admitted his guilt on these tapes to try to get Thomas to talk. And instead they're using this against him, which is really fucked up. Really fucked up. Jeffrey's defense attorney tries to argue diminished capacity. No one would be this stupid, your honor. Nobody. He's gotta be.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's impossible.

[James Petregallo]

It's gotta be a medical thing. It's like he's medically stupid. It has to be. He said Jeffrey was manipulated not only by his younger brother, but his aunt as well, who he trusted. Arthur hall testifies a neanderthal man. He said he and the three defendants met at future defendants met at the bar. He said that, you know, received the phone call. They jumped into the car. They go over to the house. He said, I heard some footsteps. I seen Mr. Swinehart coming. I seen it. This is in court. Jeff ran up behind him and hit him in the head with a Batman. He screamed and went down. Jeff hit him a couple more times with the bat. Then Tommy hit him a couple times with the bat. Terry kicked him a few times. Jeff stabbed him a few times. Then Jeff started going through his pockets. And I saw him put something in his pocket. He's gonna wire the dead man. Now, hall said that he and the brothers put them in the backseat of the Cadillac. And then we know that he and he and Jeffrey drove it. And Terry and Thomas, all the t names went in the other car. So Tom, Jeffrey, really, his own words are being used against him hardcore here. When they say can and will be used against you, they fucking mean yeah. He is found guilty of first degree murder. Oh, boy, that is wild. Holy shit. And Sentencing comes around here, you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Well, I mean, didn't get the death penalty, but they got you. They got you good.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Life without parole. That is, you are in trouble.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That is when another guy steps forward here, a cellmate of Terry Mout comes forward and he said, so this is the first initial. The way Terry Mount got into the story was a cellmate talking to the cops. Now we got another cellmate, a different one. He said, an inmate came forward and asked police if they were interested in a story that he'd been told by a cellmate. And they said, sure, why not? So he said, well, after he tells the story, they say that his story offered significant bits and pieces that indicated it was good stuff.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good stuff.

[James Petregallo]

Good stuff. Like it's a bag of coke. I licked a little, put it on my gums. It's good stuff. He said, this was the first indication that there was a possibility we could straighten the circle out and get going. And in fact, that's what happened. Because in October 1985, based on this new information, they're going to take Terry to trial as well. Terry Mapping. And we have Arthur saying he kicked him and said, make sure he's dead. And he was the guy. He was in it. You know what I mean? According to Arthur. So this cellmate's name is John Gladfelter. I'm glad you Felter, too, John. Jesus. He testifies that Terry told him that Patricia had paid Terry to kill her husband. He got paid money by Patricia. It was only about two grand, apparently. He got 1500 to 2000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Gladfelter. Yeah. He said that Mott described the murder to him while they were in county prison in March. Gladfelter, who's serving a two and a half to five year sentence for statutory rape and retail theft. I hope not at the same time, honestly. That'd be weird. Said that the conversation with Mount arose while the two were discussing a book, the Shoemaker, about convicted Philadelphia murderer Joseph Callinger. That guy is fucking nuts, by the way. Really, if you've never heard of him. Kallinger look, with a K, K, A L, L, I N, G, R. We'll do G, E, R. We'll do a bonus episode on him. He is absolutely unhinged, man. Anyway, he said. Gladfelter said, I told him I couldn't believe how brutal these murders were. Mount said he could tell me about a murder. And then he said that Mount said this guy lived in a big house and that they were paid a lot of money. To kill this guy. He said that after they killed Swinehart, he had a lot of money for dope for a while. Oh, yeah. So he got something out of it. He got a couple of grand out of it, yeah. Mount did. When asked by the prosecutor if Mount told him who paid him for the killing, he said yeah. He said it was Swinehart's wife. Oh, yeah. That's not good. Arthur hall also testifies his attorney, though Mouth's attorney attacks Arthur Hall's telling of this as Neanderthal man's telling, as totally incredible. Totally incredible, he said. And he had said on the stand he kicked David's corpse to, quote, make sure the son of a bitch is dead, as he said. Anyway, Mount also has an alibi witness too, though. Donna Fitzgerald, a bartender at the bar they were all hanging out at. She testified she served terry drinks until 2am on January 15th. And her logbook confirms it and timestamped receipts back it up. The prosecution argued that Terry had plenty of time to participate in the murder at 8:30 and return to the bar. Plenty of time. There's no. In that window. There's no receipts. So he had an hour to do this. You're out of your mind. Terry gets up and testifies. He takes the witness stand and he says that he told Gladfelter, the cellmate, everything I knew about the case, but that I never confessed to him that I was involved in. I just told him all I knew about it. He said it's ridiculous. He said that Jeffrey had admitted to him that he, his brother and Neanderthal man had killed Swinehart.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Terry said the conversation took place while they were all taking heroin in Terry's pickup truck behind the Pottstown ymca. That's all class right there. Let's give him a pickup behind the YMCA and shoot some dope. Yeah, that's great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Talk about murder.

[James Petregallo]

Talk about some murder. So during the closing arguments, the defense rips Neanderthals testimony. They said that hall had arranged a, quote, sweetheart of a deal with the district attorney's office in exchange for his testimony against his co defendants. The lawyer also said that because of his cooperation, hall would not have to plead guilty to murder and that he would be permitted to serve any sentence he receives in a county prison or which is safer than a state facility. Okay, the prosecution, by the way, the prosecutor's name is Jay McNulty, which is hilarious, really.

[Jimmy Wissman]

McNulty is on the case.

[James Petregallo]

Jay McNulty too. Jimmy McNulty. So he said that he concedes that in his closing statement that his office had made the deal with Arthur Hall. Yes. But argued that his testimony was corroborated by physical evidence taken by state police investigators. And Jeffrey's fucking story and wiretap shit. He said, our theory is that this was not a conspiracy to rob, but a conspiracy to kill David Swinehart for reasons, I hope, that are very apparent to you. Verdict comes in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

12 member jury deliberates for 14 hours over two days. That seems like more than you would need, doesn't it? Yeah. The jury foreman announces now. He, by the way, is up for first degree murder, second degree murder, and third degree murder, voluntary involuntary manslaughter, robbery, conspiracy. He is found not guilty of everything. Really everything. I don't even know what. That's lying.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What do you. How do you do that?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's evidence. All right, all right.

[James Petregallo]

Evidence. Multiple people testifying against you. That's wild. As the jury foreman, Norman Marlin Jr. Announced not guilty to the charge of first degree murder, mout, a short, wiry man with neatly trimmed dark hair and mustache, closed his eyes and broke into a slight smile. After the verdicts, all the charges were announced. Mount. After the verdicts to all the charges, Mount turned to his attorney, Richard Winters, next to him at the defense table, shook his hand and told him, because he's appointed. But he said, you'd be worth it to pay you for that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I would have paid for that.

[James Petregallo]

I wish I could pay you if I had it. The courtroom erupts into chaos. When he's found not guilty, Patricia faints.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

She faints. In the courtroom, the Swinehart family is very upset. After the jurors were dismissed, the judge and Swinehart's mother, Viola, here. Patricia's mother. I'm sorry. David's mother, Viola, walked into the corridor outside the courtroom, where she paused for a moment and then said, what kind of jury is this?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Kind of bullshit.

[James Petregallo]

Is this what kind of bullshit? She said, I'm just completely surprised. I don't know what else to say. She was there the entire trial, and she said it was crazy. Mount's lawyer said, I think that this jury came to the conclusion that Gladfelter wasn't lying, but that he had just mistaken what Mount may have told him in jail. Mount acknowledged that, yes, I did. I just said I didn't do it. I told him what I knew. Problem is, before he can even leave the court, he's arrested again immediately on unrelated forgery and theft charges. He's always got something hanging on him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's going to jail today no matter what.

[James Petregallo]

Either way, you're not going home. He's gonna end up being in jail for the next 20 years in prison he'll spend based on this shit. Not even based on murder. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Got away with that. But you're getting 20 anyway.

[James Petregallo]

1986, Thomas has his wiretap appeals. The Commonwealth appeals the decision to suppress all the wiretaps to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court. They affirm that David's recordings of Patricia over the phone are still out, but now they reverse the wire. Jeffrey Ware and the wire. And now those recordings can be used against Thomas. Okay, okay, so Here we go. 1987, Thomas cellmate comes forward. Stop talking to people in jail. Just stop it. I get that it's late and you're bored and you feel like no one can hear you because you're literally in the belly of the beast.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I understand it, but shut the fuck up.

[James Petregallo]

Shut the up. This is John Hall. No relation to Neanderthal man, by the way. Different Hall.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or Oats.

[James Petregallo]

Or Oats. None of them. Daryl not related to Daryl. Arthur, Any of them. I wonder if Arthur hall was Daryl's father. Maybe. Do we know that that's not true for sure? I gotta find out if any of these people are related to Daryl.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This girl's name was Sarah. Sky, too. His Sky?

[James Petregallo]

Sky.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Was it Holland Oak?

[James Petregallo]

Sarah. Smile.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Did they? That's funny. That's fun.

[James Petregallo]

I'm telling you, there's a. It's all involved. It's all involved. So March of 87, police receive a statement from John hall, who'd been incarcerated with Thomas in the Northampton County Prison while he's awaiting whatever the fuck they're gonna do.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whatever they're gonna get. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Hall said that Thomas told him, quote, he wanted to kill David Swinehart so that he could be with Patricia Swinehart and have David Swinehart's money. Oh, that's all of it. 1988. In June, Thomas trial is finally set to start.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Finally. That's when his lawyer, the Samuel Stretton. This guy's a crafty son of a bitch. He puts a second motion in to suppress based on Commonwealth vs Schaeffer, which was a new case about privacy rights and consensual recordings. That kind of threw everything up into the air. The judge was swayed by the law because it's an evolving law and didn't want to get it all fucked up on appeal, so he suppressed the body wire evidence. Again. So now they're not going to bring him to trial. They got to get this figured out first. So they appeal it. There's another reversal now it's allowed in. So then they take it to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. And the Pennsylvania Supreme Court dismissed the appeal as improvidently granted and the body wire recordings would be admissible. Okay. Now he refiles in April of 89 to the a second petition to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Then they just sit on the case for like two years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why?

[James Petregallo]

Nobody can do anything while they sit on the case. We're talking more than that. Like, oh, Christ, almost four years. They sit on this fucking thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. 1990, Patricia is. She's going about her life. Thomas is sitting in the jail still. He's on no bail for the last five years. So sitting there now, Patricia, she keeps the house, she kept the insurance money, her kids, cars, all that she's been financially secure. She's seen around Pottstown, shopping, going to PTA meetings, living a normal life, doing her thing. By the way, she's not fucking him anymore. Thomas and Patricia, they've been done together. Yeah, well, he can't help anymore. The problem is she spent all this fucking money already. She spent legal fees for her own protection, she had to hire a lawyer, private school for the kids. She's had to maintain the house and all that kind of shit. By 1990, she's pretty much broke. Uh, oh, she's pretty much dead fucking broke. Then May of 1991 happens. Okay. Terry Mout, by the way, testified at his own trial saying he didn't do anything and all that kind of thing. Well, In May of 1991, the state statute of limitations on perjury expires for him on his testimony. So now he comes forward with the truth. So, Terry, he's got a story to tell here. He said he was recruited by the brothers. He said Jeffrey told him initially about this in December of 81. He said, you want to help us kill this David Swinehart? So it was from the beginning, a murder. He said he met with Thomas and Jeffrey and Patricia Swinehart. Uh, oh, at Thomas's house in Pottstown. Okay. He said that Thomas offered him $1,500 up front and another 1,500 after the killing was completed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why do they think three grand is enough?

[James Petregallo]

That's not enough at all. So he said that they all agreed to make it look like a robbery. That's what they did. Okay, so that's. Now this is the first person who's put Patricia into the mix? Yeah, no one else has put her in. He said, I met with her where we all discussed the murder and the payments and everything else. Okay. November 13, 1991. Thomas still has not been tried, by the way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

No, it's crazy. Thomas is now freed on bail by a federal judge.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What is going on?

[James Petregallo]

A federal judge approved the recommendation that he be freed on bail after spending six years in prison awaiting trial. They said that's a little too long. Try him. Get a shit or get off the pot. Basically, you can't just hold a guy indefinitely until you decide to try him. That's insane. They said bail is routinely denied in capital murder cases. But they ruled that the delays in the case were so extreme that he should be released while awaiting trial. December of 1992, this same judge. This is the next month, basically. I'm sorry, this is a year later. December 92. That was November 91. This same judge recommends the charges be dropped against Thomas.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Unless he's brought to trial within 120 days. Okay, he got four months.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get it done, or whatever.

[James Petregallo]

This recommendation is turned down by U.S. district Judge Herbert Hutton. So they said, no, that's okay. So, yeah, but the judge said that it's unjustifiable delays that are causing this and said that basically they ruled that the delay is violated as constitutional right to a speedy trial under the Sixth Amendment.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Now, speedy trial has meanings in each state in terms of amounts of time and things like that. But this is beyond the scope of anything that could possibly, could be considered speedy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's been so long or anything else.

[James Petregallo]

So he took the step of having him released on electronic monitoring. There. Now the Pennsylvania Supreme Court denies Thomas appeal without explanation. And they're going to put him back in jail for a while and then he's going to get out again. It's crazy. April 19, 1993. Montgomery county judge throws the Thomas case or deblaze case out, saying that his constitutional rights have been violated. All right, so the case is thrown out now. So now he's released from jail, he gets married, Thomas to a woman named Faith. Isn't that nice? July 26, 1993. Arthur Hall. Finally. They've kept him without pleading, entering a plea for him or anything so he could testify against all these people. But it's gone on so fucking long. They just have him plead now and get it over with. The deal they made with him. He pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit robbery, which is. Oh, wow, that is not okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He talked about robbery, and there's a man that's dead.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. That's like giving Timothy McVeigh a ticket from the building inspector. Like, what are we talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Illegal possession of fireworks?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. What is happening here? So that is crazy. Anyway, he is. They do his deal here, and his lawyer says, I think it should be emphasized that but for Mr. Hall, this case may never have been prosecuted for anybody. At least at the time it was. He said, you know, what the fuck? Cut him a deal here. Cut him a break. So his sentencing for this is, you, sir, may fuck off. 29 to 59 months in prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Like two years. He got.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Holy shit.

[James Petregallo]

Nothing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Did he at least get his 3 grand?

[James Petregallo]

I don't think he got any. Yeah, he probably got it at the time. Well, yeah, we know Terry did because he said he's had a lot of dope money for weeks. God. Now, will Patricia be arrested?

[Jimmy Wissman]

She should be.

[James Petregallo]

Well, they're saying that they're still pushing the investigation. The prosecutors are saying in the newspaper that they're still pushing the investigation of Patricia Swinehart, saying that she calling her an unindicted co conspirator at this point. All right, so they've gone into labeling her into, like, libelous titles. They must have something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a real limbo of words there, isn't it?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's saying they did it, but we haven't charged them yet. Yeah, okay, well, why not, motherfucker? Charge him or shut up. So the prosecutors contend that David was killed to continue this affair. The prosecutor said. This is District Attorney Bruce Castor. He said it's fair to say that a criminal investigation is still pending into other persons, including Patricia Swinehart, who is. Yeah, he said, we have uncovered promising leads. That's all I can say.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. July 28, 1993, Patricia is finally arrested.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay. Yeah. She's the biggest beneficiary of this. It's pretty well slam dunk, right?

[James Petregallo]

I would say. Right. They arrest her at her home, her different home now in Myerstown, Pennsylvania. Charged with murder, robbery, and conspiracy charges. She's being held without bail at first. Then she's gonna end up getting half a million dollars bail, but she can't pay it because she's broke. So she sits in jail. I'm gonna read from a newspaper here. This is an article about her arrest. Quote, the woman, a 5 foot 3, 135 pound blonde with dark eyes, to whom, quote, time has not been kind. A law enforcement source said.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. Was living with a wealthy man in a very fancy house when she was arrested. And we'll get into who that is and everything later, because this is. It even gets crazier. If it's even possible. This fucking case gets crazier. The prosecutor, Castor, said that Swinehart was arrested in her bed. They came in at like 6 in the morning. A female police state trooper actually went into the bedroom and took her into custody. I would think it would be fair to say she was shocked and surprised. There was great wailing and tears when she was taken into custody. Great wailing and tears. Another article says, quote, looking tanned but drawn, Swinehart clutched a tissue in her hand or in her handcuffed hands as police led her from the Norristown courthouse. She said nothing. A preliminary hearing is expected in September. Now, one of her lawyers said, I'm distressed that she's in prison. She's charged with murder. How dare they? He said, she's a devoted, attentive mother who spends her time tending to her grandchildren, gardening and breeding bullmastiffs. What are we talking about here?

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's a dog breeder now?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Come on. I love bullmastiffs. They're great dogs. She's breeding them. Yeah, I used to have one. Love them. So anyway, breeding bullmastiffs, he said that she's done had nothing to do with the murder. He said she fully cooperated with law enforcement investigators more than a decade ago and even willingly underwent an insurance company polygraph test in 82. Not a police polygraph. The insurance company and, quote, passed it with flying colors. Which she must have passed because they gave her the money. No, they could have medicated her. She could have taken a pill beforehand, change that. So they said. The only things that have changed, they said until recently, the insurance angle has never been fully investigated. The district attorney said that more importantly, a man acquitted of the murder is willing to testify that Patricia recruited him and paid him for the murder. That's crazy. Think about that. A court of law. A jury said, you didn't do anything, and now you're gonna go up there and say you did do anything. And here's what happened.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So they missed it.

[James Petregallo]

And that's not great, right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't have any evidence of this, but yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So David Swinehardt's mother, Viola, was weeping and said, I'm just so upset that I don't know what to say. She thought she had this daughter in law. They could commiserate for years. Naturally, this brings everything back to the fore. I just don't understand what's going on right now. They also said, the prosecutor said all four of the Swinehart children, who are all adults now by this time, one of whom is a lawyer working for a Montgomery county judge now, all opposed bringing charges against their mother. They all said even if she did have something to do with it. Let's face.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We don't want to know. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Can you not destroy our family anymore? So bail is set at 500 grand. Like we said, she's broke. She can't make it. She's sitting behind bars. Now, Thomas, by the way, his lawyer, he said that Thomas has no contact with Patricia Swinehart and is currently working in Pottstown doing construction. Leave my client out of this. He said during his imprisonment, he became very religious and is, quote, very active in the church. His lawyer said, I've never seen anyone who can quote the Bible in a manner in which he can. He's very devout. He's a person who totally changed his life. So leave him alone is what they're saying. January 11, 1994. The ruling that drops the charges against Thomas is overturned by the state Superior court, and the charges are reinstated against Thomas. Dude, this is crazy. January 19, 1994, they offer Thomas another deal. Okay. They say, we're gonna put Patty on trial. You testify against her, and we give you eight to 20 years. And you've already served, like, seven years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So pretty much time served, time served. Testify against your girlfriend, please. Okay. He said, no, I'm not gonna do it, won't testify, and I don't want the deal. Go fuck yourselves.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. So he's then jailed for contempt of court after they subpoena him to testify, and he still refuses to testify. Jailed on contempt of court, he serves five months, is released from jail, five months on the contempt charge, is released, and then arrested again on murder charges again for this. He's had the craziest path of anybody we've ever had on this show.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

So Patricia's trial finally gonna take place in 1994 or some shit. 1995. So she is charged with first degree murder, criminal conspiracy, solicitation to commit murder. Now, the case that they have against her, they don't have the wiretaps. Those are inadmissible. They don't have Thomas testifying against her. And the problem here is the judge will not allow. There is a $523,000 insurance policy. The divorce, the affair with Thomas, all that's in play. She's admitted to that. The Problem is the judge will not allow into court the fact that he was about to cut her out of his life insurance. And those papers were filled out and done on the desk. Because the judge said they don't have any proof that Patricia knew about that. And unless they knew she knew about that, they can't use that as a motive, essentially.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, even if they. Even if she didn't know, she. It's still.

[James Petregallo]

Somebody knew.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Though, I mean. Yeah, even. Does it matter whether or not there was a fucking end date on her getting. Being the beneficiary? Does that even matter? Because she was still the beneficiary either way.

[James Petregallo]

I guess. Because the prosecution can say they had to kill him right then before they got those papers signed. And then the defense says, well, we don't have. You don't have any proof she knew about those papers at all. And so that's why the judge just says it's all too murky. Throw it all out. Which is a huge blow to the prosecution.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure is. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It's not great. But they do have the insurance policy, the divorce and the affair, which still is not good for Patricia. Also that Patricia knew his schedule. She controlled when he'd leave the house. She could like have him do something or have the kids, you know. Hey, can you do this with the kids for a second? They found blood outside her house. She explained it away as he cut himself on the garage. They also said her behavior, her lack of emotion after the death, her relationship with Thomas, all of that shit. Now she still has the same attorney that she hired in 1982, by the way. DeSimone. DeSimone said, where's the evidence? Where's the proof? Patricia Swinehart asked anyone to kill her husband. Phone records destroyed. Witnesses none. Confession never happened. He said, the prosecution wants you to convict a widow, a mother of four. She's a mother. She's a grandmother. This fucking broad. Based on gossip and speculation, they say she was having an affair. Where's the proof? Well, they've all admitted the affair, so that's. They say she made a phone call. Where's the recording? Meaning the phone call to Thomas to tell him to come to the bar, come to the house, cuz he's about to leave. They say that she had nothing to do with the murder. Frank DeSimone said the case against her is based on testimony from a former defendant in the case. A career criminal who admits he lied under oath more than once. He said, you're gonna see a hall of shame criminal testifying before you that's what he tells the jury. He says Patricia Swinehart is guilty of one thing. Bad judgment in marriage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

David Swinehart was a serial cheater who abandoned his family for a younger woman. Patricia survived that betrayal. Now the state wants to punish her for his death. That's also a real big motive to kill somebody if you're real pissed at them for fucking some young chick.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The young girl didn't kill him.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. No, she didn't do it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Now, the insurance papers being not. And also they're not allowed to put in the thing that he had heavy debt and high interest rates and all that. They wouldn't let allow them to introduce that either. They forbade prosecutors from revealing the insurance switch to the jurors saying there's no evidence that she knew of it. And the prosecutor, Castor, said the decision to exclude the imminent change in the insurance was devastating to our case. Absolutely devastating. So, yeah, his appointment was for January 16th was the day after he disappeared to go take care of it. And he said, naturally, we think that put a very big hole in what we thought was a regionably a reasonably cogent case. So, yeah, no insurance testimony, just that she collected insurance money. That's all they get out of that. They're trying to establish that. Swinehart also tried to remove evidence of the murder by treating blood stained snow on the driveway with rock salt and trying to chip away at it with a shovel. In her 1982 statements to police, Patricia acknowledged salting the driveway and shoveling isolated portions of it. Okay, I have to shovel the driveway all the time. I never shovel isolated portions of it. You shovel the driveway, the parts at a time when you go inside. How about over here on the grass? I'm gonna shove a little bit out of there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, over here.

[James Petregallo]

A little bit over there. But the areas she admitted shoveling were not where the slaying occurred. Well, yeah, she didn't say that. Now, a neighbor testifies. A former neighbor testifies she saw Patricia shoveling snow in the exact location of the murder. Oh, this is Barbara S. Lenzi. L, E, N, Z. I remember that last name. It's very important. Okay. Former neighbor. She testified she became close friends with Patricia during the early 1980s. Her children played sports with the Swinehart children. And Lindsay said that she regarded Swinehart as a very close friend and confidant. Okay. In 1986, Lindsay said her own marriage was falling apart. And she revealed to Patricia, you know, just a heart to heart with a friend, that she was having an Affair with another man because her marriage was falling apart. Sure. Swinehart. Lindsay says that Patricia replied that she had been having an affair with David Swinehart's nephew, Thomas, while he was still alive. Lindsey said she mentioned that they would sometimes get together at her house to have a sexual affair.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Now defense attorneys attack this neighbor's. The veracity of her statements. She'll go, why? She's a neighbor. What does she care? What does she have to gain? Well, her ex husband, the one she was cheating on. Barbara Lindsay's ex husband. Mr. Lindsay and Patricia are now together.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, get out of here.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. Fucking. The lens. He said. They said the lenses. Ex husband won primary custody of their children and moved in with Patricia. So Lindsay said, quote, well, I certainly wouldn't call Patricia my best friend now. They were like, you're not even friends with her. You're mad at her for this, aren't you? Neanderthal man's back.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Here he is. He testifies that Thomas told him several months after the slaying that he had a thing with Swinehart's wife, Patricia, who was trying to get a divorce. But on cross examination, Desimone kind of lights him up a little bit. He said, Mr. Hall, you're a convicted felon, correct? Which is never a good way to start a conversation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How do you do?

[James Petregallo]

How do you do? And he said, yes. They said, facing 20 years for armed robbery. And he said, yes. And they said, and you made a deal for leniency? He said, I was offered consideration. And they said, you'd say anything to reduce your sentence, wouldn't you? And he said, no, I. And the attorney jumped in and said, you never saw Patricia Swinehart that night, did you? Oh, Arthur hall said, no, but. And he said, never heard her voice. And he said, no. And the lawyer said, never saw her at any planning meetings. And he said, no, But Thomas said. And the lawyer said, hearsay, your honor. I'm done with this guy. Fuck him. Yeah, okay, so that's not great. In his direct, he corroborated everything, but that looked bad. And cross. They get Terry Mount in there as well, or Mott or whatever he is. No other witness has ever directly implicated Patty or Patricia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nobody said a word about her.

[James Petregallo]

No. Except for this guy, and that was after his perjury expired. But there'd be no reason for him to come forward otherwise. He was already. It was weird. So, yeah, he said that. No, she was at a meeting with us doing it and, you know, getting. Planning it all out Mott's current lawyer said that prosecutors made it very clear from day one that they were not promising Mr. Mott anything for his testimony as well, because they went off over that for a while. They called him a career criminal and drug addict who in 1985, professed innocence and was acquitted by the jury. And he's serving a 20 year sentence on unrelated charges. He testified that he got $3,000 for his role and that promised him a maintenance contract in her husband's extensive real estate holdings. So not only would he get $3,000, he'd get a no show job from Patty, too. Now in court, Patty's new boyfriend's son, who apparently plays football for Ohio State at this point. Penn State. I'm sorry, Penn State. So he might just be angry because he fucking hung around Sandusky for too long, but, wow, this guy had an outburst in the courtroom. This is Carmine Lindsay, who's 18 years old, lunged toward prosecutor Castor. Oh, boy. As the prosecutor grilled a defense witness, relatives and courtroom deputies grabbed this guy and shoved him from the courtroom. As the jury watched all this. This is fucking crazy. This was a lawyer's questioning of Swinehart's daughter. He got about two steps from his seat before friends and family members and courthouse deputies subdued him and dragged him out. They rushed him from the courtroom. Patricia, Swinehart's mother, yelled, see what you do to the prosecutor. See what you've done to me and our family, Right? So the incident left the jurors a little bit concerned. Defense attorney said, I think the jurors felt apprehensive about the incident. They wanted some explanation. What the fuck was that about? They said they asked the judge to speak individually to the jurors, and they did that. And they came away reassured about the jury's fairness. They said, frankly, we're surprised some jurors might use this as an excuse to get off the jury. And nobody did. This is such an interesting story. Who the fuck wants to walk away from this?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why would you leave?

[James Petregallo]

I wouldn't leave. I'd be fascinated. This was the second outburst of the week. On Wednesday, one of Patricia's sons grabbed the prosecutor's arm in front of the jury and whispered angrily at him. Oh, mad that he was prosecuting his mom. You can't do that. You just can't do any of that. Then there's other juror issues here. They said they've been sequestered in a hotel since the trial began because it's so much public, you know, spotlight on this one. Of the jurors homes was damaged by recent flooding. And the other jurors complained that their hotel rooms had been burglarized while they were at court. This is a mess.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

A manager at the hotel said the complaints had been handled internally and said we weren't sure whether some money was actually taken or it was misplaced. The manager said. He said only one room was affected. So the incident in the courtroom, quote, was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of anxiety for the jurors. So in closings, the prosecutor says, lust and greed, ladies and gentlemen, two motives for murder. This is two and a half hour closing. She goes into the divorce thinking she'll take him to the cleaners, make a ton of money and be done with that sob. Then she decides the only way she's going to get any money is through the life insurance and the plan to commit the murder is made. And we told you all how it happened. Now the defense in a five hour closing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh my God.

[James Petregallo]

Five hours of listening to this guy talk. This is fucking wild. Okay, this is a couple different attorneys, but one says, we know that she wasn't involved with Terry Mout. He is one of the most baseless, immoral persons I've ever seen in court. Then Desimone said, you have to acquit her. He said, this is a disgrace, this prosecution. A disgrace. Pounding on the jury box too, while he's doing it. He ridiculed the prosecutor's office. He said he asked, why would Patricia plot a murder outside her own home on a night when her house was full of people? It was just her kids wasn't full of. She didn't have a party going on. Why kill her husband when his estate could have grown considerably had he lived? He was in debt. And why did Mount describe her hair as blonde when pictures from 1982 show it seems to have been a dark brown? This is nonsense. This is Disneyland. Where the fuck did Disneyland come from? They don't have anything to corroborate him. Nothing, nothing, nothing. He says this is all while pounding on the jerry box. He then tried to discredit Terry Moore. Terry Mout. He said, no matter what dog and pony show they put on, this case rises and falls on the testimony of Terry Lee Mount. He says that he's serving time in prison. He's a liar. He said, they presented you with this animal to convict this woman. He's an animal for what? Maybe a headline, maybe a career. If she's convicted, Mouth's getting out of prison. Count on it. He then called Mount. Mount a predator, a beast, a savage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A beast, a beast.

[James Petregallo]

Predator. Savage. Who lies so effectively that the jury acquitted him of murder. That's how good of a liar he is. He got off on murder charges. He said, this is my favorite. I've never heard a defense attorney or anybody say this in a court of law. Quote, he's raping you from that witness stand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God. It gets all the way over there.

[James Petregallo]

He said, he's raping you from that witness stand. He raped one jury already. Don't let him rape you, which is good advice for anybody. Don't let him rape you is good advice. I've never heard a defense attorney say that he's gonna rape you, which is insane. So February 2, 1994, the verdict comes in on Patty. Not looking good for Patty. She is found not guilty of everything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Acquitted.

[James Petregallo]

Acquitted of everything How?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What are they doing?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know, man. This is wild. The only person who's really gotten in any trouble out of this is Jeffrey, who got no pussy and less money than anybody else.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No Aunt Patty, slash.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. Oh, man. From the paper. It says, as the verdicts were read, Swinehart pitched forward in her chair, then slumped, sobbing against the shoulder of one of her lawyers. She waited for the jury to leave, then lunged toward weeping family members as they swarmed around her. Thank God. Thank God, Patricia said over and over again. She and her family then hurried from the courtroom without comment.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So in the eyes of the law, she did nothing. Jeffrey did everything. Mount did something on a different case. All what? Hall get fucking two years.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. That he had already served.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What in the hell is happening?

[James Petregallo]

This is a fucking mess of epic proportion. And Thomas still hasn't even tried yet.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He hasn't even tried.

[James Petregallo]

Hasn't even been tried yet. We'll get into that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So this is a mess, man. Her lawyer, Frank DeSimone, said they didn't have anything. They had Terry Mount, who was nothing, whom the jury chose to disbelieve. That's it. Clear and simple. Go fuck your mothers. I'm outta here. Bye. I'm goin. Desimone out. I'm gone. So they said. The other defense attorney who's represented her also said, I knew in my heart that she didn't do it. Nothing changed from 1982, except until now. Except for Mount. Now a juror that they confirmed it. A juror that they talked to said Mount was the stumbling block. They said, we didn't feel that she was without guilt. We all felt that she was covering up evidence, but there was certainly reasonable doubt because if we were to convict her, we had to believe Terry Mount.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, so we've gotta give him credibility and we give him none.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So even though we think she did it, we're gonna acquit her, which is wild. Now, will she testify against Thomas?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I hope so.

[James Petregallo]

She doesn't have to do shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, she doesn't have to.

[James Petregallo]

Castor said he planned to call her to testify in that trial. Her defense attorney said he would advise her to say, fuck you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He said, we're going to recommend that she not testify at all. The bottom line is we want this horror to end for her. We also want to alleviate her of any civil liability she might have, considering that she's already been. Whatever. So May 1994 is when Thomas is released on contempt and then arrested for murder again. As soon as he's released next year. August 1995.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Uh huh.

[James Petregallo]

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court refuses to throw out the murder charges against Thomas, saying that it caused an extraordinary delay in his trial. But still, you have to do it. November 1995. A US magistrate recommends all charges be dropped against Thomas due to unexplainable and unjustifiable delays. A judge rejects the recommendation again to drop the charges. And they're gonna fucking take him to trial. Right before the trial, a deal is offered to him. Oh, because if they can't convict Patty, what the fuck makes him think that this evidence is gonna be better against Thomas? You know? So they are going to offer him 20 to 40 years if he just admits everything he can get 20 to 40.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And be done.

[James Petregallo]

And he said, I don't think so.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm gonna go to. Let's go to trial.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. You guys are like one for three in trial. So far. You're pretty bad at it in terms of convictions. You're not doing too well. It's like 15 years later almost. So go fuck yourself. The prosecutor said Thomas de Blasi made the wrong decision every time he's had an opportunity to make a decision. Meaning all of the times he turned down these deals. The prosecutor now, Same guy, Bruce Castor. He had got the body wire recordings in. Not the ones from the house, but the ones that Jeffrey was wearing. Those are in. Jeffrey's gonna testify against him. All he asked for is a transfer to a minimum security facility.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Send me somewhere better to do this time.

[James Petregallo]

Send me somewhere cushier and I'll put my brother in prison. No problem. They also have Arthur Hall's testimony. And at the last minute, Patricia agrees to testify.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yes. This is fucking. How crazy is this fucking case, dude?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why? What?

[James Petregallo]

She.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, she's out of her mind, right?

[James Petregallo]

By the way, is there a good person in this entire.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I haven't found one. Apart from. I mean, he.

[James Petregallo]

We'll talk about him. Nobody. Like, it's crazy. So it's crazy. Anyway, openings in the case. The prosecution. Here's the defense opening statements for the defense. He tells the jurors, this is not a trial about Patricia Swinehart. This is not a trial about insurance. This is the trial of Thomas DeBlaze, which sounds like he's really setting up a movie. We admit there was an affair. He had an intimate physical relationship with his aunt. Okay. Quote, it is ugly in many people's books, but it's certainly not a crime. I knew it was a rule. I didn't know it was a law.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, in some states it's illegal.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. Now the tapes are allowed in, like I said, all the tapes that Jeff had. This has gone back and forth 20 times, these tapes, and they're finally allowed in. 11 years coming. Every lawyer that's defended Thomas has had these tapes thrown out over the last decade. And. And yesterday, at the second day of the trial, they play the. What they call the brothers. Crackling, curse. Filled, fragmented, and at times, oblique conversations. All right, here we go. They said, the only thing you have to worry about is what I gave you, which is the one we did before. Yeah, we talked about that one here. He said that the only thing you have to worry about is what I gave you. That's if you're sure that's taken care of. You burnt that, right? And him saying. With the clothes in it. Yeah, with the blood, the pants in it and the rope. Everything's gone. That shit back and forth. The only thing's not gone but the money. I still have that buried. What should I do with it? Oh, spend it. There's that. And then also the. You got your cut. You want to end up like Uncle David? She looks good for a widow. They'd have moved by now if they had something. All the main things. Now the defense attorney calls the tapes, quote, totally inconclusive. Really could have been talking about anything. He said 10 tapes, multiple hours. You'd expect more.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Would you?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He said, you know, I don't know. He said the tapes incriminate Jeffrey, but they don't incriminate Thomas. He said Thomas suspected his brother was trying to set him up, too. So he was just kind of, like, trying to shut him up. Arthur Hall, Neanderthal man, comes to court again. He's in court a lot. Poor bastard. He said, I told Tommy that A nephew of Mr. Swinehart, David Shifley, had been questioned before the grand jury about the slaying. He said the district attorney told him they had a tape of Mrs. Swinehart and Tommy talking. She made a comment that she'd like to get rid of him and that Tommy said, after tonight, you won't have to worry about it. Tommy just told me. Yeah, we had a thing, but he didn't want to discuss it. No more meeting with Patricia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

He told the jurors that he entered the High Point tavern shortly after 8. Thomas received a call over the telephone. Quote, tommy had a brief conversation, put the phone down and said, all right, let's go. He's there. So on the way to the home, he said that the DeBlaze brothers talked about killing David. He said that would eliminate all our problem, mine and hers. I just want the son of a bitch dead, Thomas is quoted as saying. And then they went and killed him. So, you know, he also testified that he believed he was, quote, going to rob a man, but that instead they beat him to death on the way, or they beat him to death. When he came out, Jeffrey came up behind him, whacked him over the head with a baseball bat. It was a very hard. An overhand swat. And he was demonstrating the blows with a wooden pointer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my.

[James Petregallo]

They gave him a pointer. He said, Jeffrey handed the bat to his younger brother, and then. And that Tommy hit Swinehardt a couple of times, saying, this is the end of all our problems.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Crack, crack, crack.

[James Petregallo]

We're gonna fix it. Yay. Now, cross examination on the Anderthal man. Here, they question his credibility and grilled him about repeatedly lying to police and a grand jury before finally agreeing to cooperate. In 1985, he admitted he'd lied when he denied any knowledge of the murder, saying that he did so out of fear. And they said, you'll do whatever it takes to satisfy the Commonwealth. What you've said has been dictated by protecting yourself, hasn't it? Patricia testifies. Here we go. Now we finally get a story out of her. We've got no, no words at all out of her. They said she looked like a suburban grandmother. Very conservative dress, pearl necklace, nothing of, you know, I'm a guy, woman who fucks her nephew. None of that stuff. So she took the stand and she was called to account for her actions and everything. And they said this was the first time in a decade where she actually asked to explain herself. And with her personal attorney close by. She admitted to having the affair. But repeatedly said she could not remember the details surrounding the incident, meaning the murder. I can't remember anything, she said. I don't know what to say to you. It was a long time ago. I just don't remember. Wow. The district attorney, who reiterated question after question only to receive the same answer, called the testimony evasive. He said he would call her back later if he needed to. At one point. This is the back and forth. Mrs. Swinehart, did you have a sexual relationship with the defendant? Yes. He was your nephew by marriage? My husband's nephew, yeah. I didn't fuck my sister's kid. Yeah. When did this relationship begin? Summer of 81. While you were married? Patricia said, my husband had left me for another woman. She tried to maintain her composure, but having to describe the affair in court was a little weird for her. They said, did you ever discuss your husband's insurance policies with Thomas? She said, everyone knew David had insurance. How I know nobody's insurance status unless it's someone I'm married to. I have no fucking idea what anybody's life is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No friends? Yeah. I know nothing about their shit.

[James Petregallo]

We know each other's because we're in business together. And we have to. Cause that's it, though. Nobody else on earth I know about. They said, did you ever ask Thomas to kill your husband? Absolutely not. She says, did you call Thomas the night of January 15, 1982? I don't recall.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, I guess, wow. It's been years. I don't know if I called him or not that night.

[James Petregallo]

He said, you don't recall calling your lover the night your husband was murdered? And she said, it was 14 years ago.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, oh, my God. I guess he would know that.

[James Petregallo]

These are terrible answers. Yeah. Oh, my God. She said she didn't learn about her husband's financial troubles until after he was dead. Which isn't true because when they talked about support, they had given her paperwork saying that he was in debt and didn't have any money. She repeatedly said she couldn't recall how or when the affair began or how often they met. She said, that was 15 years ago. I don't know. I remember plenty about 15 years ago. Plenty.

[Jimmy Wissman]

15 years ago. I know I fucked somebody a lot.

[James Petregallo]

Especially if it was around my spouse being murdered. I probably remember a little bit about that. They said, did you want the neighborhood, the Pottstown community, to know about the affair with Your nephew. And she said, I didn't think about that. Oh, didn't even think about it. So. Wow. So using a timeline drawn by this defense attorney, she reconstructed a tightly packed evening that began about 7:25, when she asked her son to move her husband's car so she could drive two visiting students to the local high school. So that's. His car was in the garage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they moved it out of the garage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

So it'd be easier to deal with. The car was moved, and by 7:45, she said she'd return home after dropping them off, picked up her two youngest children and taken them to the store for pencils and candy. That's the most innocent thing in the world. I took them for pencils and candy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. There's a. Something was just. Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Strip club ever. Pencils and candy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's something recently that somebody gave somebody money and said, go get pencils and candy. Like, it's just a distraction method for children.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah. Here, this is what you. Yeah. What was that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. I just saw it.

[James Petregallo]

Show we just watched. It was a show we just watched. Yeah, because we both. Yeah, it's something we both watched.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Pencil, candy.

[James Petregallo]

Was it the Ed Gein thing?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it in there?

[James Petregallo]

Were those kids. Was there pencils and candy with those.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. Somebody got pencils and candy. With cash.

[James Petregallo]

With cash. So by 8, about the time the prosecutors say, she phoned with Thomas at the local bar, she said she was home. So she was home to do that by nine, the time that he was already dead. She said she was watching Dallas on tv.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Which was a giant hit at that point. It was the biggest fucking show in the world. And playing backgammon with her son David. Okay. Backgammon in Dallas. Now, the prosecutor called her testimony a lie. He said she's trying to put herself back at the house by 8pm In a tense exchange, he pointed out to the jury that her first police statement after the murder, she said she went to the store about 8pm Prosecutors contend that she left the house then to tell Thomas, his brother Jeffrey and the two accomplices that he was home and they could come over and murder him. Sure. Okay. So basically the same shit as they had on Patricia, but not really anything else. Yeah, they got Jeffrey's testimony, but Jeffrey also was testifying in the other ones, and it didn't seem to help any. He testified against Terry Mount. Who cares? Okay. They find Thomas guilty of first degree murder. No rhyme or reason for this whatsoever. The Only people involved were the two brothers.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How do they got enough to get them but not the other three.

[James Petregallo]

That's so stupid it makes no sense. Now sentencing comes around. This is death penalty or life without parole. He could have got five years at one point.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If he just took.

[James Petregallo]

Would have been well over by now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, when you see somebody got nothing, you got to run with it, right?

[James Petregallo]

And a bunch of other people. And the courts are disallowing things. And why? His lawyers are probably telling him they don't have shit. Fuck that. Don't take any fucking deal. So Thomas's family, they beg for his life here. His sister and his mother. His sister, whose sons are the ones that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right. That fucked her.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy. Yeah. And his mother are there. They beg the jury not to condemn him to die. His mother said, I have lost many men in my life. Please don't take him from me. Please don't take him. Okay. The sister, Beth, wept openly as she pleaded with the jurors to spare her brother's life. His wife, Faith, comes out now. Faith. They married while in 1993, she told the jurors that she wanted to be a housewife. I wanted to raise children when she met him. Which led the defense attorney to say, faith, you know that the verdict virtually ensures that there will never be children born by you and Tom.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And both of them erupted in tears. Thomas and her. She said, all I can ask for is your mercy. At least we'll be able to have Saturdays. Then she left the witness stand hunched over, clutching her stomach. Friends and neighbors, there's no baby in here. And she ran away. Friends and neighbors, 14 character witnesses came to the courthouse here saying that Thomas was a law abiding, nonviolent person. In 1982, three of his friends and former neighbors testified. The rest agreed to support the depictions and back them, basically. So they didn't have a parade. They're like, can you just stipulate to what he said? So everyone's. Yeah, what that guy said, me too. All right, great. So the defense here, they're trying to save him. And they say that, quote, that they're in a position. He's in the position of asking you to spare a life. He called the killing an aberrant, atypical act and said that in the years since the slaying, Thomas has become a devout Christian and a responsible, repentant man. He said he was 23. We all do things in our youth that we regret doing now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

True.

[James Petregallo]

Not murder for hire. After you fucked your aunt. That's a. That's over the top?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, maybe. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We've all done.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Christ. Who among us. Who hasn't, really? Then he asked the jury that. Do you believe that David would ask you to take the life of his nephew?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do you think so?

[James Petregallo]

What do you think David would want here? The prosecution closing here said that the killing was committed by means of torture. He said he was killed 1,100% more than was needed to kill him. I don't know if that's a scientific number. It's a good number. Pulled that one out of their ass, he told the jurors, referring to the numerous crushing bat blows and steep stab wounds. He said, Thomas, for 14 years, was presumed innocent. However, yesterday, by your verdict, you stripped the murderer of his innocence. The shield has been taken away from him. And he says he asked the jury to, quote, wield the sword of justice and sentence him to death. Good God.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wield the sword of justice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Take it off with his head.

[James Petregallo]

Off with his head. They come back and they say, you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole. Okay, life without parole for him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very dumb, but all right.

[James Petregallo]

It's. Yeah, I think part of it is, too. A jury sits back and they go, no one else got the death penalty for this. Multiple people were involved in this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna be the only guy to die. Let's. Let's not do that. That sounds weird. And now the house. After she's acquitted, Patricia kind of vanishes. She sold the house in 1995, the family house. The new owners reported finding blood stains in the garage that, quote, no amount of cleaning could remove.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow, they're still there.

[James Petregallo]

They demolished the garage entirely.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Now this house, in 1999, it sold for $1,864.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

So that has to be like a transfer to somebody. Like somebody gave it to somebody else. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's just like the taxes.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. Exactly what that is. So that's interesting. 2007, remember Jeffrey?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He's in a lot more trouble.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. He is found guilty of third degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder after a joint trial with a co defendant named Lewis Mann in 19. In 2007, this happened. In 1996 as the crime. Jeffrey and man were cellmates in the state Correctional Institute at Pittsburgh, also known as the Western Penitentiary. Jeffrey and man murdered a fellow inmate, Timothy Boris, who died of asphyxiation due to strangulation. They strangled this guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Since he was already incarcerated, on another murder. His conviction triggered a mandatory sentence of life in imprisonment, which he already had. There was testimony from the. That he. They observed the victim arguing with. With Jeffrey and Man, according to this other person, he later spoke with the victim. After this guy was asked what the victim stated. They. There was an objection. And all this goes on. And they go on. They said that the argument was about drugs, that Jeff gave him some drugs and Tim got scared and gave it to another guy. They had an argument because the guy died from the drugs. Okay. This guy also testified that he witnessed Jeffrey using a chokehold on the victim inside Jeffrey's cell while the other guy, Mann, was punching the victim. Afterwards, Jeffrey and Mann approached this other guy inside his cell and asked him for help carrying the victim back to his cell. This guy declined to help and suggested that they asked two other inmates, Carlos Vasquez and Adam Colon, for assistance. He then saw the four of these guys carrying the body of the victim. He said the men dropped the victim at one point and the victim didn't even grunt. Because he's dead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Because he's dead. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They acknowledged an argument in the cell and all this type of thing. Richard Guy, Dick Guy. The victim cellmate also testified that Jeffrey and Man had approached him and told him that the victim had overdosed on heroin and they had attempted to revive him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We're just getting rid of him. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

When Guy re entered his cell, he saw the victim who he thought was asleep. Guy then used heroin himself and fell asleep. When he awoke the next morning, the victim was unresponsive, bloated and purple. He called for a guard and was removed to solitary confinement. This guy was not the dead guy. Later, Mann, Jeffrey's co defendant, informed this cellmate that he had had an argument with the victim and a struggle ensued before, quote, things got out of hand. The autopsy revealed the victim had abrasions and bruising on his face and back as well as his neck. His eyes had hemorrhaged, and the forensic pathologist concluded he'd been strangled to death.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Now, the Swinehart children.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

What becomes of all of them?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Where do they go? Yeah. With mom. She's acquitted.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Well, they were all adults by then.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So by the time she was acquitted, they were all adults. So the oldest son, who was 17 at the time of the murder, left Pennsylvania immediately after high school, changed his name. Now, I heard he was a lawyer, so I don't know if he left after all of that or what. Or came back. They said one of the daughters became a Therapist specializing in childhood trauma. And she spoke publicly about growing up with all of this. Dead father, mother on trial and all that. The little girl who was six at the time, who had drawn the pictures on the casket, she had a hard time. She had addiction into her 20s. This is a rough thing. Multiple arrests. I mean, not good. Finally got clean in 2010 and started working as an addiction counselor in Philadelphia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And then the saddest of all, in 2008, the youngest son committed suicide.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

Leaving a note that said, quote, can't escape the family curse.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Geez. Oh, he had an uncle that did it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

God damn.

[James Petregallo]

Had an uncle that did it. A father that died. It's a mess. So that's horrible. 2018 now member Terry Lee Mott. He was acquitted of the murder, but served 20 years on forgery and theft charges. Unrelated to this, he was released in 2005 from prison on those charges, and he never admitted his involvement in the murder and died in 2018 of liver failure. Arthur hall was released from prison in 1988, moved away from Pennsylvania, and just came back for trials and shit, and I don't know what happened to him. Arthur Hall's a common name, and it was very difficult to dig him up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's Captain Caveman.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Who knows? 2020 is when a former detective is interviewed. And this is very interesting. This is a guy. He's dying of cancer and doesn't give a fuck. So he's gonna talk. He said, quote, we all knew Patricia did it. Hell, the whole town knew. But knowing and proving. That's different. She played us all. The grieving widow act, the concerned mother routine. You want to know the truth? David Swinehart was an asshole. This guy doesn't give a fuck anymore. Want to know the truth? David Swinehart was an asshole. Cheated on his wife, flaunted his money, treated people like dirt. Did he deserve to die? No. But did anyone really mourn him? Also no.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck him. His kids are the only ones that cared. And his mom. The real victims were those kids. Growing up knowing your mother probably had your father killed, your cousins are in prison for it, and everyone in town knows your business. That's a life sentence. Worse than prison. Yeah. That sucks. That really does. Yeah. Those were their first cousins. Literally, first cousins. Jeffrey gave his first interview at age 69 from prison. He said, I think about that night every day. Wow. That's a weird way to put that. It's hard to. I think that night every day. Not the murder. That's a blur of Blood and adrenaline. I think about the moment before when I could have said no. Could have walked away. Could have been anything other than what I became. Thomas still won't talk about it, Jeffrey says. Still protecting Patricia, I guess. Or protecting himself from the truth. That she used us, all right? She played us, he said. You want to know the funny part? The money. That 523,000 we killed for. Patricia burned through it. In two years on lawyers, we destroyed four families for money that just ended up in Frank Desimone's pocket.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. He said if I could tell young guys in Pottstown anything, it'd be this. There's no shortcut, no insurance payout worth your soul. You want money, work for it. You want love, don't look for it in your uncle's wife.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

These are all very. You want money, work for it. You want love, don't fuck your aunt. These are all real basic concepts I think we can all agree on here. David Swinehart was a bastard, but he didn't deserve what we did. No one liked this guy. That's what I mean. Nobody does. And we didn't deserve what happened to us either. But we chose it. Every swing of the bat, every thrust of that knife, we chose it. I'll die in here. Thomas will die in here. Patricia's probably already dead. David's definitely dead. Was any of it worth it? What do you think?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm gonna say no?

[James Petregallo]

Nope. September 2021. Thomas wants an appeal based on the fact that he was only 23 years old when this went down. And the US Supreme Court recently deemed mandatory life terms for juveniles unconstitutional. And they said, well, 23 isn't a juvenile. Keep fucking off, asshole. What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What a dumb. Dumb.

[James Petregallo]

He's close. Yeah. I mean, you know, he had some developmental things like. Get the hell out of here. He's 23, for Christ's sake. Thomas is incarcerated at the State Correctional Institution at Cole Township. Life without parole. He's had multiple disciplinary infractions early on. Found religion in 2001 and became the prison's chap, the prison chaplain's assistant. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whatever.

[James Petregallo]

He knows how to get special privileges is what that is. Jeffrey is at the Huntingdon is what it's called in Montgomery county there. Okay. Now, other things that happened. The Swinehart case changed Pennsylvania law. Commonwealth vs. DeBlays became precedent for consensual recording admissibility, speedy trial rights during appeals, and wiretap evidence in murder cases. Bruce Castor, the prosecutor on all of this, went on to become Montgomery County District Attorney, then County Commissioner. He appeared on investigation discovery five times for different reasons, always citing the Swinehart case as the one that still haunts him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I believe it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. The case is still taught at Pennsylvania law schools as an example of how you can very easily lose a case if you only have circumstantial evidence. Never trust a family in murder conspiracies, for sure. And basically, this is how you not commit a murder. This is terribly dumb.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is so bad.

[James Petregallo]

Now, Patricia, there's two conflicting stories, and I think I found the right answer. Patricia moved to Florida, then Arizona, then disappeared entirely. Some people say she remarried. Others claim she died in the early 2000s. This is an article from an article in 2019. A woman claiming to be Patricia's daughter told a reporter. My mother died in 2007. Lung cancer. She never admitted anything, but she never denied it either. Her last words were, I'm sorry for everything. Okay? But that's that. But I did some digging myself and took way too much time to do this, but I found. It's her, man. I found Patricia A. Because she's Patricia Ann. Patricia Ann Lenzie, her neighbor's fucking husband. And it's all. It's Boynton Beach, Florida, and it's all of like, her relatives are her relatives that we know of, her kids and shit like that. This says that she was. Died in June of 2023 at age 82.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

That's what this says. We're not. I don't know which is true, but that seems right to me.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She stuck around way too long.

[James Petregallo]

She married her goddamn neighbor's husband and moved to Florida. Fucking wild. This case was seen on Deadly Affairs. The TV show Three to Tango is the name of the episode. They said a love affair takes a murderous turn when David Swinehart discovers his wife skinny dipping in the gene pool is the way they describe it. So there you go, everybody. Pottstown, Pennsylvania. That is one of the most twisted, weird, crazy goddamn cases we've ever covered.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's fucked up, man.

[James Petregallo]

The whole thing is a disaster. Nothing good came of it. Just awfulness all around.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How long did she live?

[James Petregallo]

I think till 2023.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

82 years, I think. After all that, who knows? So there you go, everybody. If you like what we're dishing out here, if you like what we're cooking, please, please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps so much. It really does help drive our show up the charts and helps out a lot. So do that. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com, tickets for live shows. Merchandise for all the shows. Tickets for live small town murder shows. About the only one left with tickets is Seattle on October 18th at the Moore. And they just put out a low ticket warning. So if you want those tickets, get them right goddamn now. I saw that. I posted that last night. So get in there. Also get your tickets for the virtual live show. We cannot wait. It is the Thursday right before Halloween. Just like a regular live show, except you don't have to go anywhere, anywhere in the world with WI fi or Internet. You can watch this. You want to hardwire it, that's up to you. I don't care. So get in there and do it. It's going to be just like a regular live show. Pictures, story, jokes. We're going to wear costumes like idiots. I'm going to make Jimmy smoke weed out of the apparatus that scares him. It's going to be hilarious. Oh, you know, it's going to happen. So it's going to be a lot of fun. Do that. Get your tickets right now. It's available for two weeks after it airs too. So you can watch it 100 times if you want. You can wait and watch it at the. Do whatever you want with it. We don't care. It's shutupandgivemerder.com definitely. Get yourself Patreon. Oh yeah, listen to our other two shows too. Crime in Sports and your stupid opinions, which we think you're gonna love. Now. Patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports Just like the name of that show, that other show we have, that's where you get all the bonus material. All you have to be is $5 a month or above. And you get so much shit. Hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before. Immediately upon subscription, all sorts of stuff. Then you get new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder. And you just get them all. Just take them. This week, what we're gonna give you for Crime and Sports, we're gonna talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials, which is basically, we're gonna make fun of like tiny actors for trying to fucking get a shot over Reggie Miller. You know, it's ridiculous. So Tony and Tony, all three Tonys playing three on three with Bell, Biv and Devoe. So Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about Unknown Number, that documentary where the woman harasses her daughter for years. And it's the craziest thing ever. We've had so many requests we had to do it. That's patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show. By the way you also get everything ad free on there as well. All the shows, crime and sports, you stupid opinion, Small time murder. All ad free on Patreon. And you get a shout out. Jimmy Hemmy. With the names of the people who would just never do any of the shit that happened this week. Never fuck our aunts and kill people. Just never do any of it. Hit me with them right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This week's executive producer, Brian Kush. Flower child bmx. It's a lot to say.

[James Petregallo]

That's a lot of stuff.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know what all that means. Gary Howard, Alana Zapple ride bikes. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Gary. Hello. Gary.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And Elena. She's lovely. She's Canadian. Toronto.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Matter of fact, Kyle Millerwick, another guy. Terrific. I think he's in England. I can't remember. I think so.

[James Petregallo]

Well, thank you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But Olivia is 17. Happy birthday, Olivia. That's Jenny Coons kid. I think Jenna didn't say if that's her child. She said it's Olivia's birthday, so we have to tell her.

[James Petregallo]

17 year old animal. Olivia, we wish you a happy birthday.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Happy birthday Franny Hitke. Also somebody been around. She's in Australia. She was going to come to a show. She's incredibly sick. Don't eat tainted meat. Poor Franny is dealing, Tim. She's destroyed about it too. Tim Teisler, Tasteler, Dubrovko, Zaja. I don't know what that means. Oh, it means oak grove, that's what it means. And they're very depressed now because of the small town murder show from that episode. Yeah, Jonathan Batchelor and Ian Elliott. Those are executive. Thank you all so much for everything you do. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender. Oh boy. Happy Hour checking in. In Greeley, Colorado. Happy Hour is on the tour of the worst towns in America.

[James Petregallo]

That's better than they were at one place.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, he goes to the worst place.

[James Petregallo]

El Paso. Yeah, that's worse than Greeley.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Poor bastard. Janice Hill. Yeah, and Albuquerque. All kinds of New Mexico shit. Devin James, Lauren Bender. Another bender. Jesus. Kay Perry. Andrea Ranieri. Darcy D. Becca Keel. Kell Keel. Daphne Young, Jake with no last name. Lmo with no last name. Colin Andrade. Todd Nickel. Knickel. Nick What? Lo Profito. Don Carpenter. Brandon Weatherell. Weatherill Robert. Robert Phillips. Gabrielle Betton, Holden Roberts. Okay, that Is a real name. Charles Moore. I was trying to figure out what the.

[James Petregallo]

What's a Roberts character. Right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What are we holding? Got it. All right. Charles moore. Danzine's Danzines, 1987. Devin Prout. Galad Horain. What? Sheila McCommons. Doug Carlton. Evie McKenzie. Coley. Coley Stroud. Cindy with no last name. Dean Goldsmith. Reese with no last name. Danielle with no last name. Garrett with no last name. Peggy Metzger. Melissa Dickinson. Jenny with no last name. M. Casper, 1996. Melissa F. Aaron Williams. Ryan. Nope, that's Sally Redmond. Mitchell.

[James Petregallo]

Sally and Ryan. I mix those up all the time. Understandable.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Common mistake. Mitchell Gildea. He's terrific on Instagram. Natalie Nelson. Jane Fitzpatrick. Big Nate. Robin Adamson. RPSGT What? I don't know. One of those is Cloister Moist. When your cloister is dry. I don't know what that is. James Bignell. Bonnell. Maybe. B with no last name. Jonathan Garcia. Memo Lira. Jaden Sevier. Kerry Palmer. Connie Below. Spencer. Evidentially she's under Spencer. Craig Breeze. Evan. Evan Hosinski. Amber Jean Goodman. Renee Mitrovich. Nikki Nelson. Rowley. Judy Irby. Lilith with no last name. Like fair. Melissa with no last name. Sharon Concannon. Bambi Lynn. Lane Sears. Kevin V. Aaron tricker. Laura Walker. A.J. mahule. Sarah Mail. Malee. I don't know. Jay. Nope, that's Stephen. Nope, it's Steve. Cessna. Deanna. Or Dina.

[James Petregallo]

That's better.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Melanie Pacific. Kuro Kubata. Megan Reese. Elizabeth Ihorn. Alana Ayad. Sydney with no last name. Delilah Waggy. Stacy Williamson. Alex Tinker. Amanda loth. Eddie LeBoeuf. Junior LaBeouf. Labo. Jody with no last name. Dina Katz. What is it, Jody?

[James Petregallo]

One of the names sounded like a character from something. Dina Cats from Cheers. Never mind.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There it is. Emily Dye. Helen Yang. Oh, don't. Victoria. What the is sj?

[James Petregallo]

You moved your glasses.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like that's not gonna help.

[James Petregallo]

You moved your glasses up and down like there was something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's going on there? Where's the letter? It's missing a letter.

[James Petregallo]

Right? Focus was the problem.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sioblom. Renee with no last name. Autumn. Yield. Link. Yielding. Yielding. Savannah Sanchez. Your mom gay? Maybe your mom is Jennifer El Serio. If my mom was, I wouldn't be here. That's impossible.

[James Petregallo]

Well, you might be.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She could have been somebody else's mom. I mean, Daniel Morris. Dalton. Lawrence. Lawrence. Josh with no last name. Gail. 10A. Imagine. Dragon. Deezne.

[James Petregallo]

Nuts.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I will imagine that. Nicholas Springer. Dennis Pharrell. Delane Deline. Delane. Antoinette Krueger. Bridget Beck. Cassie Jiguarn. Jiguere. Jiguere. Bethany Arthur. Deep fried Italian. Philip Bustamante. Jessica Hulsey. Heather Shutters. Deontay Holland. Jay Legler. Marion Gonzalez. Help. Mock. I live here. Okay. Pippin P. Peeperton. Erica with no last name. Trent with no last name. Shannon M. Michaela Verst Vorholst. Melissa Stebbins. Sherry o'. Farrell. Johnny on the Spot. Joanne Moore. Paul Moreno. Tim McCormack. Joanne Luzo. Juliana Cruz. Katie Schmitz. Victoria Honeywild. Tommy Spencer. Amanda with no last name. Gina Bur. Oh, boy. Bernardini. Liz Would. Liz D. Jessica Townsell. Lauren Cannizzaro. Michael Wetterland. Beth with no last name. Tabitha Buengay. Rob King. Casey with no last name. Nick Smith. Verdante Volpine. What? No, I didn't get that right. Susan Rompa. Tabitha Nelson. Tom Mackey. Susan with no last name. Elise. Alice. Elise Rates. Katie Porter, perhaps? I hope it's. I hope it's that one. Don Scarborough. Matt DiPierto. D. Puerto. Is that how it is? Pr.

[James Petregallo]

Pizza brand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's Italian. Jessica Cusack. Joseph Lemaster. Justine yates. Like in lichen 90. I don't know what that is. Danielle Ziglovsky. Ziglevsky. Travis Heath. Lisa Justice. Jen with no last name. Sophia McCreary. Carrie with no last name. Simon with no last name. Ed Fox. Brittany Black. Will. Denise Flood. Heather Kennybrook. Rob West. Caleb DeWitt. Kaylee Thomas. Jessica Wysocki. Chiang Chiang J. Ed. Exotic Minivan. That's not a thing. Boot War. Mary Elizabeth. Lauren. Ball or Bell? It's Ball. Lori Ditchfield. Izzy with no last name. B. Boo. Susie. Homebody Glory. Gloria James. That's a. I was going to read something. That's Gloria Haywood.

[James Petregallo]

Gloria. That's made it sound like a STD.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Disease I got, man.

[James Petregallo]

It's bad. It's all over the place.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Rebecca Ader.

[James Petregallo]

To my ass, man. It's the worst.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Pia Thompson. Isaac Watson. Crispy Mittens. I don't know what that is. Christine with no last name. Chad with no last name. Caitlin Mori. Amy Shackelford. Dylan with no last name. Dale Louise. Chris Hamlin. Olivia Wilson. Chris Meerling. Joshua Alberry. Linda Daly. Lynn Daly. Bethany Bolt. Kristen Johnson. Tim Rushing. Meg. Oh, Miguel. Miguel James. Miguel with no last name. Dustin Schroer. Charles Hickey. Adam Manning. Lone Saturn. I guess that's a star. No, it's not. Benjamin Grundy. I just tried to talk myself into something. I'm going to walk away from it. Kenneth Knox. Charles Horn. Chris Imanz. Yep. Renee Hopkins. Irma. Irma. Irma. Mulvihil. Mulvihil Davis. Vandy Stieg. Lindsey Doherty. Linda Harris. Rella with no last name. Segol with no last name. Trent Trenton Turner, Andrew. What is this? Mac MacRitchie. Andrew MacRitchie. Katie McCurdy. Vern Reski. Bobby Hagemeister. Jared Hammond. Lisa Yazell. Ashley Ray Walter with no last name. Tim Brazil. Jared Smith. Ralph with no last name. Sandra Dye. Ashley Bryant. Amanda Kajaar Kajdan. Missy With Missy B with no Last name. Elizabeth LaRue. Keegan Vanderpoel. Tracy in San Diego. Stephen Farrell. Stephen Farrell. Johnny Batch. There was a guy named Batch, right? Taryn Perkins. There he is. Fernando Enrique DeBaros. Chloe Schmidt. Rob Hatfield of the McCoys. Jams. Jams. James Hinton Francisco. That's fun to say. Medina. Devin Layman. Henry T. Michelle with no last name. Kim Robinson. And all of our patrons. Thank you so much.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you so much everybody. You spectacular, wonderful bastards. We goddamn love the shit out of you. And just thank you for all that you do for us. Keep coming back and seeing us. Head over to shut upandgivemerder.com if you want to follow us on social media. All of these shit has a drop down menu. Follow it to wherever you want to take it. Don't fuck your aunt.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bye.