The Most Interesting Murderer In The World - Springville, California

Summary

Small Town Murder: “The Most Interesting Murderer In The World – Springville, California”

Podcast: Small Town Murder
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Episode Date: January 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James and Jimmie delve into one of the wildest crime stories they've ever told, centered in the small California town of Springville. The story features an escaped convict with a spy-movie past, stolen identities, a bizarre murder, a socialite-turned-victim, and a crime so complicated—and strange—that even the hosts find themselves incredulous at every step.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Springville, California: Setting the Scene (08:29–18:57)

• Town Profile: Remote, desert-mountain area; less than 1,000 people; high unemployment and poverty despite high real estate prices.
• Vibe: “A town full of Snoopy’s brothers.” (15:43)
• Noteworthy: The town has “some of the lowest crime rates in the entire state!” Not true, both hosts point out, as violent crime in Springville is above the national average.
• Community Events: Local highlights include the “Apple & Arts Festival” and “Hot Summer Night Bull Bash.” Much comic riffing on these hyper-local, rural festivities.

“What kind of a sick bitch takes the ice trays?” – James (43:37)

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2. Gerald Daniel Walker: The Bizarre Antihero (25:19–56:35)

Early Life & Criminal Career

• Background: Born 1931, Ohio, military service in Korea, then a career in crime—armed robberies, escapes, and a series of inexplicable “for fun” crimes (armed poetry recitations, helicopter thefts, etc.).
• Personality: Textbook charming psychopath—crafty, sly, compulsively deceptive, described by those who knew him as “evil,” “brilliant,” and “an animal unlike any other.”

“An evil man...a man who could shoot you, then sit down and have lunch beside your body.” – Det. Swalwell (52:08)

Escapes & Antics

• First major escape: Gets out of a 10–25 year sentence using charm, connections, and sheer luck.
• Hospital ‘abandonment’: Fakes symptoms, strolls out in silk pajamas, and is for a time not even considered “escaped” due to legal technicalities: “A federal judge ruled the prison ‘officially abandoned him.’” (58:02)

Cross-Country Crime Spree

• Identity Theft: After assaulting a jewelry salesman in Ann Arbor, MI, Walker assumes the man’s entire identity, heading west with stolen cards and IDs.
• Charismatic Con: Known for taunting authorities; uses stolen credit cards freely, sending gleeful letters describing his lavish lifestyle.

“This being on the run shit is tough.” – Walker, mocking his lawyer (59:44)

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3. Introducing the Victim(s): Hope Nivens Masters & Bill Ashlock (64:24–89:15)

Hope's Background

• L.A. Socialite: Born to privilege but experienced neglect and family disintegration; multiple brief marriages, three kids; her “crash pad” house is an open home for stray animals (and people).
• Financial Ruin: Despite her social register status, by her early 30s she’s essentially broke—living off modest support, scraping by, and taking whatever work she can find.

Relationship with Bill

• Bill Ashlock: Handsome, responsible, low-key ad executive—her "room-temperature porridge" (Goldilocks reference); both fell in love quickly.
• Plan: Spend a quiet, romantic weekend at her mother’s ranch in Springville. Instead, it becomes the scene of a nightmare.

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4. The Crime of the Century (89:15–144:39)

The Setup: Walker as “Taylor Wright”

• Entry: Walker, now posing as “Taylor Wright,” befriends Bill under the pretense of a Los Angeles Times ‘eligible bachelor’ interview. He arranges a photo shoot at the remote ranch.
• Murder: After a day of friendly activity, Hope wakes up to a gun in her mouth, Bill lying on the sofa—dead, head shot, blood everywhere. Walker binds, threatens, and rapes Hope repeatedly, weaving an absurd story of “the organization,” contract killings, and bizarre sexual demands.
• Hostage & Manipulation: Over two days, Walker shifts from menacing to oddly domestic: he cooks, plays with Hope’s children, tucks them into bed, and even asks if Hope would marry him if he became a lawyer.
• Stockholm Syndrome: Hope displays signs of psychological trauma—her confusion, survival strategies, and even later correspondence with Walker fuel public and legal skepticism about her true role in the crime.

“If you make this fun enough for me, maybe I won’t kill you.” – Walker to Hope (101:12)

Cover-up & Aftermath

• Walker & Hope’s Cover Story: A web of lies involving “the organization” and a contract killing is presented to Hope’s family and police. Authorities become immediately suspicious.
• Evidence Trail: Bill’s corpse, Hope’s inconsistent story, and a trail of tape-recorded “confessions” (sent by Walker to Hope’s mother’s mailbox) add to the confusion and spectacle.
• Arrest: Walker is eventually caught in North Hollywood, busted with Bill’s credit cards and possessions. He offers no resistance, treating the process like another lark.

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5. The Trial & Legal Intrigue (144:39–176:02)

The Law Fumbles

• Legal Highjinks: Walker, sharp and devious, acts as his own co-counsel. By exploiting minor technicalities (“fruit of the poisoned tree”), he gets evidence dismissed, and prosecutors must refile charges.
• Unconventional Defense: At trial, Walker claims he was simply an innocent friend; Hope, though originally a codefendant, becomes the star witness after legal wrangling.
• Jury and Public Perception: Stories of rape, murder, and possible “collusion” keep the public—and the jury—on the edge.

“He testified he’d used 90 names in the past 23 years...he’s a former ad executive, the man who dreamed up Captain Crunch.” – James (165:10)

The Verdict

• Outcome: Walker is found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life with the possibility of parole. Hope, though traumatized and widely speculated about, is not prosecuted.

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6. The Aftermath and Legacy (176:02–End)

Walker in Prison

• Jailhouse Legend: In prison, Walker becomes a famous “jailhouse lawyer,” filing lawsuits, advising inmates, and even writing television scripts. His charisma and cunning continue to win him privileges and attention.
• Bizarre Resume: Claims to CIA recruitment, war hero status, and having invented the Captain Crunch character add to his lore. (Host notes express deep skepticism.)
• Parole Attempts: Denied repeatedly; by 2024, Walker is still in custody at age 93.

Hope’s Later Life

• Withdrawal from Public: After cooperating on Joan Barthel’s book A Death in California (1981), Hope changes her name and disappears from view, traumatized but (presumably) free.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Springville sociology:
  “This is a town full of Snoopy’s brothers.” – James (15:43)
• Walker’s chilling assessment:
  “An evil man, a man who could shoot you, then sit down and have lunch beside your body.” – Det. Swalwell (52:08)
• On Walker’s escapades:
  “He literally held the gun up…while he recited poetry to him.” – James (41:37)
• Hope pleading for her life:
  “If hating you would bring Bill back, I'd hate you like I've never hated anyone before. But I can't bring him back, so there's no point in being vindictive.” – Hope (125:12)
• Walker’s own mythology:
  “If you ever want to know more about me, read The Day of the Jackal. I’m the Jackal.” – Walker (129:57)
• On the absurdity of the crime:
  “They got fruit of the poisoned tree’d out of murder evidence!” – James (153:02)
• On Walker in old age:
  “Come back when you’re 95 is literally what they said.” – James (188:24)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• Springville town profile & history: 08:29–18:57
• Walker’s early life & crime spree: 25:19–56:35
• Hope & Bill’s background: 64:24–89:15
• The murder and hostage ordeal: 89:15–144:39
• Investigation & legal confusion: 144:39–176:02
• Trial, legacy, prison life, aftermath: 176:02–End

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Final Thoughts

The episode delivers a rollercoaster of crime, comedy, and social commentary, with the hosts keeping things moving between real empathy and their trademark irreverence. The story is laden with wild details—an antihero criminal, a socialite victim, psychological drama, legal mishaps, and one of the weirdest “afterlives” for a murderer in podcast history. If you like your true crime blended with sharp, often absurd, humor and a talent for storytelling, this episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Small Town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magic. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. But potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This week in Springville, California, one of the strangest stories in the history of murder unfolds. Featuring an escaped convict with an apparent CIA background, a model with an unlikely story of being held captive, and even plenty of stolen identities confuse the detectives. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder that we have for you today. This is wild stuff from start to finish. I can't wait to get into it. Definitely. Before you do that, though, we'll make an announcement right off the top here before we get to the website and all that. We're on Netflix now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's happening.

[James Petregallo]

It happened. Yeah. We will be starting on Netflix next week. It's gonna be a little confusing, the first episode because it's gonna be on Monday, January 26th. This is the only time an episode will be outside of our normal release schedule. We're just doing that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Say that again.

[James Petregallo]

January 26th, Monday. But what's going on with that only time? The only time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The how many times?

[James Petregallo]

Only one time. It's not on Mondays from now on? No, it's on one episode and then it's Wednesdays after that. So just like normal. And Fridays for Express, same thing. So we're very excited. Check us out on Netflix. You can see us doing the show like a live show type deal, except.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, it's like you're sitting in here.

[James Petregallo]

With us like that's it. You're sitting in here. The show will be exactly the same. It's not like we're gonna, you know, do a lot of visual stuff that you won't be able to see on the audio. It's gonna be just like you're hanging out in the studio with us. So we're very excited for that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So excited.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you for making that possible because it's all of you guys there everybod listen to the show. That's why the show is going to be on Netflix. Thank you so much for doing that. While you're excited about Netflix, get on here and get some tickets. Tickets for live shows starting out with February 21st in Nashville. Get them right now while they're hot. And then after that we got Durham in Atlanta, March 6th and 7th, Phoenix is sold out. But the your stupid opinion show still has some tickets for that. Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown in Boston. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of that and more also while you're there. Well, not while you're there, but there's links. You can go there. Go get yourself patreon as well. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above. You're getting so much. First of all, hundreds of backpacks, bonus episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. Then you get new ones every other week. One Crime and sports, one Small town Murder this week, which you're gonna get for crime and sports. It's the sales, Jimmy. We're doing crazy old timey ads and I can't wait. Those are my favorite shows. And then for Small town murder it is Dean Corll Part 2. We're gonna investigate the John Wayne Gacy connection. And there's a lot to unpack there, man. Cause right this point in the story that we got 27 bodies and right a lot of splaining to do. So can't wait to get into that. Patreon.com crimeinsports and in addition to that, you get all the shows we put out. Crime and sports, you stupid opinion. Small town murder all ad free with your Patreon. And you get a shout out at the end of the show too as well. So that said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. This is a comedy show. We are comedians. Murder will happen and jokes will happen as well. That's how this Works, you might go, well, how does that work? Very easily. What you do is. What we do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's families.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why is that, James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. See how that goes? It's real simple, and it's a really easy way to make it. There's plenty other stuff to make fun of. That's what it is. We make fun of a small town because we're all from a small town or somewhere that's easily made fun of. Or, you know, we make fun of a police force that solve a murder so a killer goes and murders more people. We make fun of murderers because what else can we do about it? We're comedians. What are we gonna do? We can't do anything. We're not judges. Can't sentence them to more time. We can make fun of them, though, unmercifully. So that's what we do here. If that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, I'd give it a shot. You never know. Either way, no complaining later. That's what we say here. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. Yeah, let's clear the lungs. What do you say? And let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Yeah. Jimmy was clearing that throat. He was not. He's taking that instruction seriously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'll sign it up for a.

[James Petregallo]

Stupid.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Joke about getting city air out of your lungs.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Well, let's go on a trip. Let's get the city air out of our lungs here and go on a trip right now, because this place is pretty rural. I'll tell you. We are going to Springville, California.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, you go.

[James Petregallo]

Where the hell is that? Right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

That's the first thing no one's heard of that. It's in Southern California, but, like central, like middle of the desert.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. California. It's inland. Yeah. It's wild. Yep. 3ol. Sort of. I never even heard of this county before. I didn't know it existed, that it's in. It's in. It's three hours to la. It's about an hour and a half to Fresno. So that's right there. Yeah, it's up there. And then about 3 hours and 25 minutes to Olancha, California. Our last California episode, the Cowboy and the Con man, which was a really cool episode.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They were the same guy, weren't they?

[James Petregallo]

I think so. This is in Tulare County. Tulane with an R. Okay. Area code 559. Motto of this town. Where the hell am I? Is there anything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All these cowboys.

[James Petregallo]

What is happening right now? Yeah, a lot of ranches out there and things like that. A little bit of history of this town. The original name of the town was Daunt D A U N T, after William Daunt, who was a settler who opened the first store in the town in 1860. Named it after just the guy at the store. Yeah, I mean, he's probably the only, like, permanent guy there. So you just called it that. It was changed to Springville in January 1911 in reference to the soda springs found in the area. Oh, it was just. It was seven up was coming out. It was pretty cool. They were excited about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Big Coca Cola. It was Big Red.

[James Petregallo]

That was what was so impressive. That's what was popping out of there. It was Cheerwine from North Carolina.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's that? Sundrop?

[James Petregallo]

Is that that one Sundrop, the one I like from. What is that, like, Tennessee down there? So that's where we got it in Nashville, but yeah. Yeah, that shit's good, man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a lot of the regional sodas. I love them.

[James Petregallo]

I love them. Oh, every time we go to places, I'm like, give me your regional sodas.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's your regional bullshit that you can't get anywhere else.

[James Petregallo]

Texas, it's the Sugar Dr. Peppers. It's the Dublin Dr. Peppers. All right. Also, there was an infectious disease named after the county. That's how you want your county.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You got the Daunt.

[James Petregallo]

Tularema. Tularemia. Tularemia, caused by the bacterium Francisella tularenius, named after this county. So they named a bacteria after your county because it's so prevalent there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You found a bacteria that only. That's your regional soda.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. It's also known as rabbit fever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, is that right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. I don't know if rabbit's caused by that bacterium. Symptoms include fever, skin ulcers, and enlarged lymph nodes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, I don't like those two words together.

[James Petregallo]

That sounds awful.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Skin ulcers.

[James Petregallo]

It is weird, man. What a weird thing. Now, reviews of this town. Let's get into some reviews of this town. Five stars. There's only a few, and they're all pretty positive. I mean, really, you kind of want to have. You have to want to be here. It feels like you don't end up here by accident.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They got tubularemia.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. But that's how you couldn't leave. You got tularini and you gotta stay. This is gateway to the Sequoia National Forest. Tule river passes through town. Historical points of interest.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it Tule River T U L.

[James Petregallo]

E. T U L E. I wonder. Tule or Tule.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

They've got all heard of it before now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Outdoorsy shit. That's called Tule and it's T U L E. I don't know if that's. Who knows? It doesn't matter.

[James Petregallo]

This is in the Sierra Nevada mountains.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that would make sense if it affects goddamn nothing. But to some people, here's everything.

[James Petregallo]

It's all they care about. It's all they're interested in. Here's four star small town in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Less than a thousand people. Very friendly. Beautiful surroundings near Sequoia National Forest. Many recreational activities. One of the lowest crime rates in the entire state. Oh, we'll be the judge of that because we have stats. So. And I guess. Guess what, you're wrong. So there you go. I think you're probably wrong. Maybe. Three stars. Small mountain community that's very friendly and very quiet. Surrounded by hills and mountains minutes away.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And then finally, three stars. It's quiet and peaceful, but not too much to do. Yeah. You're in the middle of the desert. What do you expect? Middle of the mountains. It's the middle of nowhere.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Desert Mountains.

[James Petregallo]

Desert Mountains has decent restaurants and an amazing coffee shop. It's not too far from great hiking up in the mountains or fun shopping in Porterville.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ew.

[James Petregallo]

Ugh. Porterville is not good. I remember Hunter Thompson talking about Porterville in the Hell's Angels books in California. Yeah. Like a place they were stopping on the way to somewhere else type of joint. That's all it was. People in this town about 960, but some sources say around 500, so who knows?

[Jimmy Wissman]

So every stat is fucked.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Super small. So the stats, I mean, men and women. Women are only 44% of the people here. 44.4. Men are 55.6. That's way off the national average. Median age is almost exactly the national average. It's 37.5. We got 58.6% of the people here are married. 0.0% are married with children. I don't know how that works. They gotta be older people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I assume everybody's single with children or.

[James Petregallo]

Just single or married with no kids. Grown kids. That would be like with them living in the house, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nobody is married with kids.

[James Petregallo]

Nobody. Everybody who has kids, they're all aged out. They've all left. 7.4% are single with children. So not a lot of kids here. We'll say. But the age is at 37. It's weird. Race of this town, 83.7% white, 0.0% black, 0.0% Asian, 3.2% Native American, which is way above the national average. And 9.5% Hispanic. 42% of the people here are religious. And the leading one there is Catholic. 24.1% Catholic. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the western Sierra Nevada valleys. We all know that. Rolls right off the tongue.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Full of them.

[James Petregallo]

Full of them. Yeah, it rolls right off the tongue. Unemployment here is almost double the national average.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Which. It's the middle of goddamn nowhere. So that would make sense.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You gotta have a job, right?

[James Petregallo]

Well, it doesn't seem like everybody does here because this is from the Spurling's best website that does all the stats of everything. The average income of a Springfield resident is $15,399 a year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

It says the median household income is $0 a year, which I know is a bad stat, but it's impossible. 53.7% of the people here make under $15,000 a year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay. So this is 900. Just incredibly destitute folks.

[James Petregallo]

They're all like Snoopy's brother who lived in the New Mexico. Remember Snoopy's brother would come like from the desert. You don't remember that? This is all a town full of Snoopy's brothers. Let's put it that way. He was like Snoopy's desert rat brother who lived in the middle of New Mexico and would come in. So that's rough cost of living here. Let's hope it's low. It's actually 99.6. 100 is regular or average. So it's average. Exactly. Housing is the expensive thing though, unfortunately. Median home cost here, $387,100. Good luck everybody. Enjoy your trailers for the rest of your life. You're broken down fifth wheels. That's all you can afford out there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That's horrifying. So if we've convinced you. Damn it. You want to make no money, but pay a lot for a house and live in the middle of nowhere and have Snoopy's brother as your dog. We have for you the Springville California real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for 1,170 doll. Which isn't far off the national average. It's pretty. It's a little lower than it. House number one is up at auction. It's a three bedroom, one bath, 800 square foot. Dumpy little house. It's just a dumpy. Shitty. There's no other way to put it. The grass, the yard, everything's dead. It just looks terrible. Not great. Small lot built in 1943. The estimated what it'll sell for at auction. $172,500. Trash. Trash. I also found 2.2 acres of land for $95,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Decent little view. Here's a house. Not great. You can see here. It's a little dumpy box, basically. Yeah. Little dumpy box. Not wonderful.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How many square feet is that?

[James Petregallo]

It's a two bedroom, one bath, 1154 square feet. 0.27 acres. Also built in 1943. That's when they were building shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably everything was.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. $263,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That seems steep.

[James Petregallo]

That seems real expensive for this dumpy little house. Put it that way. And then finally. You want to stretch out a bit here. Four bedroom, three bath, 4,637 square feet on 19.63 acres. It's big. It's a big ranch. Like a ranch style. It has like one of those like metal gates where you put livestock behind them. Has like those on the side. So this is. It's. Yeah, it's got barns, but it's got like that. Whatever. That metal. Yeah, the metal fencing that goes around where the corrals are. That's. That's got that. So this is for, you know, a ranch type deal. $1,675,000. Just had $125,000 price cut.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So it's coming down further. I promise.

[James Petregallo]

It's a bargain, folks. I think it's coming down. Things to do here. Okay, first of all, the Springville Apple and arts festival, which is about as boring as it sounds.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It does sound boring.

[James Petregallo]

It's got an apple run running. I guess. I don't know if you hold apples.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bobbing is over something.

[James Petregallo]

A pie eating contest. I wonder what kind of pies those are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Think they're apple?

[James Petregallo]

It might be. Apple said the Springville Chamber of commerce is now the proud organizer of the Springville apple and arts festival. Not much different from the old apple festival, but there are a few changes and I don't know what the hell they are. The schedule we got apple run awards at the coveted 10.30am spot which all bands hanker for the eights will be playing. Whoever that is the eights. The eights. 12:30pm Right after, if you're the eights, you're opening for the pie eating contest which happens at 12:30. Then at 1:15 the occasional brass will be playing. Sure. And then at 2:15, Patty, Tory and the Irregulars. Just a bunch of Ross shirts, basically.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bunch of ladies can't poop.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, a little off. Then there's the hot summer night bull bash.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, here it goes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bashing bulls.

[James Petregallo]

I think that's what it is. You bring your best baseball bat and you attack it. Says anyone who enjoys watching bronc riding, calf roping and bull riding may be withdrawals by now. It's going to be a long nine month wait until the next Professional Rodeo Cowboy association event at the Springville Rodeo grounds. On the other hand, if the idea of ending the summer months with an exciting rodeo event sounds like a good idea, there's a first rate solution available. It's this. As you sip, eat and visit, there will always. There'll be the always exciting mutton busting as the kids attempt to ride rapidly running sheep. Be ready to cheer on these young cowboys and cowgirls as their shoot gate opens and they begin their ride. Depending on how many bull riders sign up, there may be as many as 30 bulls. Wow. There will be breakaway roping for the young ladies and a comedy act provided by the stock contractor. Very famous in the comedy scene. We know him from, you know, all those nights at the improv opening up for the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You remember his big gag where he.

[James Petregallo]

Walks by every tractor, walks by every.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Cow and goes, is that your wife?

[James Petregallo]

He does that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a big gag. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It's really hard because it really depends on people bringing their cow to the show. But someone always does. And he makes sure to say, let me tell you something for the missus. The little lady is what he called her.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He likes to ask, how's she kiss when he points at the pigs.

[James Petregallo]

That's great. Before the evening is over, there'll be a historically based event I think you'll find interesting. They're calling it Ranch bronc Riding. Sounds interesting, doesn't it? That's literally what they said. I suppose I'm riveted. Yeah. Depending on how late you want to stay out dancing the night away in Springville, the Josh Day band will provide more than enough opportunities to boot scoot and swing your partner. Oh boy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You had all the chance to say boogie.

[James Petregallo]

Oh my God. This sounds like my nightmare plan on being ready to head home somewhere around midnight with your little Lady, I got.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A feeling James is gone much earlier.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. James is doing the Clark Griswold at the Grand Canyon. Go. Yep. Mm. Okay. Right back to the car. That's enough of that. I smell poop and hear country music. I am fucking going somewhere else. Those two things I'm not interested in now. Crime rate in this town. High. High. Like that person, one of the lowest crime. Nope. It's higher than Los Angeles. The crime rate in this town by far, property crime. About 25% above the national average.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore also high.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very, very high.

[James Petregallo]

There's nobody here. More like 10% above the national average. But higher than the national average. Nothing to brag about, put it that way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So that said, let's talk about some murder here. All right. We're gonna go back in time a bit farther than we usually go back for this, but it is so worth it. You have no idea. And it feels modern day, I'm telling you now. We're gonna start our main stuff here. Happens in 1973, which to me is such an interesting time. Anyway. That's, you know, 73. 73 is this country was wild stuff going on. You still had the hippie thing happening. You had Watergate is going on at this point. Like, this is a. All the Family is the number one show. It's a very interesting time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is the start of the muscle car generation dying too. It only lasts.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. The last couple years. The last few years. Then it was over. Yeah. Yeah. Six probably hardcore. They.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dodge started 67 to 73. It was done.

[James Petregallo]

But Dodge started at like 64 though, didn't they? They started a little early.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, they started putting big motors in things, but it didn't really turn into like a sought after vehicle until 70.

[James Petregallo]

I always think of it 64 to 74. Kind of that era, I suppose. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. That's about like the beginning of it to the end of it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Like the very beginning.

[Jimmy Wissman]

74 done.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, done. Yeah. By then. Yeah, they were. That was really hard.

[Jimmy Wissman]

318 cars and it was just such garbage. Any. Sorry.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, let's get into murder. We could talk about old cars for a while. Or we can get into. Because we'll sit here, talk about old after the show. We're talking about old cars again. It's fun for us.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tim Allen and Jerry Jay Leno come in.

[James Petregallo]

No, that's all right. We're good. Now quote on this story here. This is from the New York Times in 1981. Yeah, this is a wild quote. Escaped convict, stolen identity, false journalism cover, Sharon Tate style. Hit claims, Stockholm syndrome, love letters to a killer. Fruit of the poison tree. This is one of the strangest cases in the annals of American crime. That's the New York Times. And somehow no one's ever heard of this goddamn case.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the hell?

[James Petregallo]

Kind of like what we do here. So let's talk about a guy first here. An interesting, interesting, interesting cat. Gerald. Daniel Walker. He's born. No, not at all. What? No, we'll talk about that. But he's born August 10, 1931. He goes by G. Daniel. G. Daniel Walker. Like G. Gordon Liddy type of thing. G. Daniel Walker, but he goes by Daniel.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'd go with G.B. walker.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, no one could. Goddamn Walker. Some bitch. He also goes by Tyler Taylor.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Might as well.

[James Petregallo]

A couple other aliases, and my favorite, the Jackal. That's my favorite alias that he has, the Jackal. And he's very proud of that. One of the Jackal. He's born in Toledo, Ohio. This is the wild part. Stable, boring, middle class upbringing, born in 31, through the Depression, through the Second World War. Think about it. He was 18 in 1949.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So, like, that's a boring time to be a teenager during World War II. Boring as shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Nothing boring.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, culture has kind of stopped, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like, kind of abandoned you.

[James Petregallo]

Even Joe DiMaggio's fucking overseas. Like, it's, it's there, it's boring. And there's no, like, new products because all the, you know, all the resources. There's no metal, nothing being made of metal and shit like that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So Mom's over there building refrigerators.

[James Petregallo]

She's taking them apart to give to the scrap run for the metal drive. She's taking apart her beauty queen crown to hand it into the downtown.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's down at the boatyard. Riveting shit together.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, totally. His father was an antiques dealer. Daniel Walker here. So that's strange. Family was religious. He went to school and church regularly. You can't get any more standard, fair, Midwest, average upbringing than this guy. And his life is so the opposite of that. It's crazy. Maybe that's what it was. He was so bored that he needed to have the craziest life that anyone's ever had, ever. Sure. His father, antiques dealer now, he went to. After all this stuff, after school and everything, he went into the army and served in Korea as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

So that's fine. That's good. He Went and served in Korea. But I don't know if this was when he was in the army still, because the Korean conflict was like 51, 52. It started that would have been when he was 20, 21. And then by age 22, he's being arrested for armed robbery in Florida.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

And convicted of it, too. Early 50s, armed robbery. He gets sentenced to 10 years in prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a long time.

[James Petregallo]

And he escapes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petregallo]

He says, I don't think so. 10 years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, I have more time when I get caught.

[James Petregallo]

No, he got caught and then they paroled him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, well, we can't hold him, so we may have to send him out.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, well, at least then we can keep an eye on him, sort of, you know, if he comes to the office. If not, you know, we have no way now, 1958, he's in Ohio, where he's from here, and he's arrested and convicted for another armed robbery.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, so this is what he does now.

[James Petregallo]

This is kind of what he does. He's sentenced in Ohio to. This is a. You, sir, may fuck off. 10 to 25 years at the Ohio State Penitentiary. That is. Wow. That's a lot of time, man. You're looking at some serious time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

10 to 25 sentences that could have amounted to 35 years of his life.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. This story could have never happened if it wasn't for some ineptitude by everyone involved as we'll talk about while serving time. This is fucking crazy. He made close acquaintances with the warden's personal secretary. Made real close friends with her to the point where they got married while he was an inmate. Yeah. The warden said. The warden allowed that you fired her, right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. I mean, I knew it was a law, a rule.

[James Petregallo]

I didn't know it was a law. They had a child together while he was in prison. Yeah. And later on they'll divorce, obviously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

What are we talking about here? Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to feed your dog with Ollie.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ollie.com. o L L I E dot com.

[James Petregallo]

That's right. The holidays are over. You get. This is more hangout time with your pups. That's what that is. It's more couch time, pet time, hanging out time. Jimmy just got a new puppy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

And he's been spending lots of time. And he's been so cute and everything like that. Everything. And Jimmy's been trying to decide what to feed him. And there's only one thing to feed this dog, and that's Ollie. You want to give your dog the same kind of fresh start new year energy. And you can do it too with Ollie. Switch to Ollie. They're great. It's human grade meals, real ingredients. Five slow cooked recipes. Tastes like a warm, comforting meal. But for dogs, you're gonna love it. Really great. It's human grade recipes. It's really good. Backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts. It's so good you'll want to sit down with the the dog. You'll be jealous sometimes. I want this. Why can't I have some of this? Yeah, let's go. Let's, let's both stick our heads in there. Let's do it. Let's get right in there with this food. It's good stuff here. Dogs love the taste. Even the pickiest eaters are going to be jacked when this comes, when this hits the bowl. Tell you that right now. There's tailored meal plans for your dog's specific needs. Perfectly portioned meals in mess. Free packaging comes with a scoop for easy serving and a storage puptainer for no. That way you get zero fridge stink. The Ollie app offers on demand health screenings where you can tap real experts for puppy peace of mind uses data from the Ollie pack to develop new recipes and products for your dog. Telling you the poops are going to be better, they're going to be happier. Tails wagging, fur looking shiny. You're really, really going to love this stuff. More importantly, your dog's really going to love this. Your dog's well being starts with their food. And that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food. Food that your dogs will love. Head to ollie.com stm and tell them about your dog. And use the code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's how you do it. That's O l l I e.com STM Enter code STM to get 60% off your first box.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor there is. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P L I.

[James Petregallo]

Safe.com we love SimpliSafe. We love it. They've been around for years with us and that is because it's from the heart. It's great. It's just a great home security system. You can't beat it, you know how, like at certain times, you know, you hear maybe cases on small town murder and you're like, oh boy, I better double check the locks on everything. And, you know, do all of that stuff. We do that too. Yeah. Except what you don't want is a home security system that only goes off after someone's already inside.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't want that.

[James Petregallo]

That's useless. What's that gonna do? Yeah, your whole family's in trouble. Yeah, they're making. Stacking your family up like Cord would, stealing all your stuff. And the alarm go woo, woo, woo. Big deal. Great. That's. You don't need that. Traditional security systems basically say, hey, someone got in. Simplisafe home security is much different because it's built to stop crimes before they start. They're gonna prevent this stuff. They've got this double layer of defense. They have their AI powered cameras that can spot a threat, a real threat, while they're still outside your home and alert the live monitoring agents. And those agents, they don't just watch. They'll jump in, they'll yell at them, hey, moron, get out of here. Hey, criminal, go away. The cops are on the way. They can actually talk to the intruder, let them know they're on camera and that police are on the way. And they could even trigger a loud alarm siren, a spotlight if they need to. So it's not all on you to see a notification in time and go, oh, wow, someone's in my house. We love Simplisafe. It protects our homes, our offices. We've used it for years and it's just the best there is. It's top notch. You're gonna feel better. Get yourself some peace of mind with the best home security system you're going to get. You're going to get. And Simplisafe has been named one of the best home security systems by U.S. news World Report for five years in a row, trusted by over 5 million people to help protect their homes, including us. So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, just go to simplisafe.com small that's S I M P L I safe.com small there's no safe like simply safe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Now, 1966, he's paroled. Okay, so he only did eight years out of the 10 to 25. But still, eight years is a good chunk. I mean, he was like fucking the warden secretary the whole time. So prison was a little different for him than it should have been. Probably.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably flew right on by too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If you're getting laid and hanging out. Sure. He's getting special privileges.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And I'm sure everybody leaves him the fuck alone if he's banging the warden's dog. Not daughter, receptionist.

[James Petregallo]

They're in awe of him. Yeah. They're like man high fiving him every time his hands sore because there's just so many high fives going on as he goes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Which is more.

[James Petregallo]

We invented his hand or his dick. James. Yeah, they invented the high five. This is when it was invented in the early 1960s in the Ohio State Penitentiary.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So 1966. He looks like he's getting his life together actually. He decides that he's not going to be a criminal anymore. And he is really crafty and really smart, this cat. I mean extremely real. Like just a. I want to call him crafty keeps coming to mind, but something with a more criminal bend to it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like a fox.

[James Petregallo]

Sly. Yeah, exactly. But also just kind of brilliant as we'll talk about.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like a jackal.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Like a jackal. Is that what a jackal is known for? It's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Aren't they. They're a scavenger, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I think they just eat shit off the ground. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think they got kind of cunning sometimes though.

[James Petregallo]

I think you're right though because they're like that. There was that terrorist guy who is Carlos the Jackal. Which means that he. He can hide. You know what I mean? I think. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And he doesn't care about his diet at all.

[James Petregallo]

You wouldn't last long as a terrorist if you weren't good at hiding. I would think so. You wouldn't last. Eat anything. Yeah. You weren't. Wouldn't last long enough to earn a nickname for sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'd be fucked. My gut is so precarious.

[James Petregallo]

Right. One egg would send Jimmy into the Jackal Hospital.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm stuck in India.

[James Petregallo]

Well, I can't eat here. We're screwed. So he starts an advertising company.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

No advertising experience.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

He was in the Korean War and then prison in Florida and Ohio. What are we doing? He starts.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He advertises that dick.

[James Petregallo]

Well, that's something. It's called Ad Biz Inc. And he does so well. He buys a lake house on Lake Geneva in Wisconsin.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Buys a house. He's making. We're talking 1966. He's making $45,000 a year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

Which is hundreds of thousands of dollars now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. You can buy two homes with that.

[James Petregallo]

The average salary was like $5,500 a year back then. And he's making 45,000 a year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In a year, he could own two.

[James Petregallo]

Homes and four cars and four brand new giant American cars. Here's an article in 1967. By 1967, the Chicago Tribune is running an an article about these ad agency people. And he's the star of the article. Wow. In one year he was just in prison. Literally last year. The headline is agency dropouts drop in with Drive In. Yeah, that's a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Can't do it.

[James Petregallo]

A collection of seven dropouts, as they prefer to call themselves from larger advertising agencies, opened their own ad agency, Sharon, Walker and Stein, this week. So he joined up with a bunch of other people and opened a new agency. Its initial press release, frankly states the agency has no clients. G. Daniel Walker, one of the principals, says this group picked up its first account yesterday. It was the Henry's Drive In Inc. Business worth about $800,000 in billings. That's big. Henry's is the third largest chain of drive in restaurants in the United States. I've never even heard of it. At one point that was the third largest and we've never even heard of it. Henry's, Henry's Drive in restaurants.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Must be hamburgers, huh?

[James Petregallo]

I have no idea. I wonder who bought them. With 168 locations across the country and 21 in Chicago. Wow. Wow. The firm is headquartered here. The firm's employees are dropouts from companies such as J. Walter Thompson, Batten, Barton and Durstein and Osborne, Young and Rubicam, Campbell, Ewald and Compton and Compton Advertising. They said the agency's offices are in the ad Age Building, 740 N. Rush St. So they're in. That's there, Madison Avenue, but we'll move to the fifth floor of the Regency Orleans building. This sounds exactly like Mad Men. I wonder if. I wonder if Mad Men got that whole storyline from here. Because they did the exact same thing. They all left. They started their own firm. They were based in a hotel for a while, and that's interesting. In its promotion pitch to prospective advertisers, the agency says, who is Sharon, Walker and Stein? So he's got his name on the door. Yeah, they're the big agency dropouts. Were they fired? No, they wanted to do contemporary advertising. He says. Daniel says, we don't know anyone. We have. All we have is courage and a few gimmicks. He said one gimmick is an underground telephone, quote unquote. The agency prepares commercials for new clients and writes the company Asking for a phone call to listen to a 3 1/2 minute tape recording. That's the pitch. I got her now. Now, during this time, you would think, okay, he's just. He's gonna chill out. He's making good money, he's successful. Chicago Tribune's talking about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's gonna do this for 30 years and never work again.

[James Petregallo]

No, he's really bored. Oh, he can't. This cat cannot just go. He can't just go into an office and sit there and go home at the end of the day. That's boring for him. He just needs more action. So he starts committing a bunch of crimes that aren't even for personal benefit. Funsies, the cops call them, quote, quirky crimes. It's literally, he says he was bored and so he was committing crimes just for fun.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What are they?

[James Petregallo]

Okay, well, one is he stole a helicopter. A whole ass helicopter. Just stole it. Fucking boomed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just knew how to do that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he was in the military. I guess that helped. And there's some other stuff that we'll talk about that he might have been in as well. Stole a helicopter. At one point, he stole his neighbor's tent. His neighbor had a big giant tent, which doesn't sound like much, but then he pitched it in his own yard to show he stole it. Yeah, yeah. That's like, why? At one point, he said, as an acquaintance said, that he asked him, why are you committing all these crimes? Because they get weirder. And he said, for a lark, for fun. He's bored. That's all there is to it. One time. This is fucking crazy. He went into a camera shop with a gun, held up the camera shop, but didn't ask for a dime, didn't ask for any merchandise. He held this man at gunpoint while he recited poetry with him to him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't move.

[James Petregallo]

He literally held the gun up. Guy put his hands up, went for the register, and he said, no, no, no, and whipped out a piece of paper and started reading the man poetry. Held him at gunpoint till he was done reading poetry and then left. Didn't take a dime.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, son, when there's one set of footsteps. That was when I carried you.

[James Petregallo]

I gotta go. I gotta now buy Pete. What the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Now let me give you some Robert Frost. Hold on a minute here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, that one was real annoying.

[James Petregallo]

Here, watch.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Listen.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, not for the register. I have some Walt Whitman for you. What are we talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, no, don't Frost. No sale.

[James Petregallo]

It's fine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just listen.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who would do that? Just listen.

[James Petregallo]

You don't even need the gun. You could just go in there and. It's his job. He's not gonna leave. You can just yell poetry at him. Till he physically throws you out, I would assume, right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Or calls the cops, whatever.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's so strange. And they said in this there's a long record of thefts, burglaries, stolen credit cards, all sorts of weird things that he's doing too. None of this makes any sense. Then it gets the weirdest here after this. Well, 1968. He is in court on a second charge of grand theft, which alleges $460 worth of property found in his home was taken from the Geneva lake home of Mr. And Mrs. Kenneth Morissette. He's making huge money and robbing houses. Walker pleaded not guilty to the charge and to an earlier charge of grand theft in which they alleged that he stole $900 worth of property from a different couple.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It just doesn't make any sense. No.

[James Petregallo]

Judge John D. Voss set the bond at $200 and for the first charge would be allowed to stand for both matters and scheduled a hearing. Both the Hardin and Morissette homes were stripped of furnishings. When the family returned, he took everything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Took the curtains.

[James Petregallo]

What kind of a sick bitch takes the ice trays? That's what it is. That's what he's doing. It's crazy. They said they returned after a week's absence on vacation. The Hardens of Racine have a summer home here. Tire marks indicated a truck had been backed up to the rear of the house for loading furniture and appliances. He's taking stoves and shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck the. Yeah, fuck the ice trays. The ice trays are going with the fridge.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, with it all. They said during that. And this happened sometime during their absence. The theft was discovered Aug. 10. The Morissettes discovered a loss of more than $20,000 worth of antiques from their home on Aug. 12. Oh, and who knows about antiques? The son of an antique dealer, possibly he knows what's worth money and what isn't. That's crazy. The home is on Snake Road, north of the shore. Now, the District attorney, Robert Reid. Not Mike Brady. Different Robert Reed Chew Bomber's brother. Nope. Nope. Asked the court to set more than $200 of a bond for Walker because he already posted it saying that he has very serious charges against him. Also in Chicago, this guy's a career criminal. The Walworth county investigation followed the Hardin burglary. Discovered following the Hardin burglary. Discovered that a gyrocopter.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a helicopter.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Small helicopter parked by Walker at the Larry Whiting airfield near Lake Geneva. Matched the description of one reported stolen in Chicago. He didn't just steal it. Take a joyride and brought it back. He stole it and brought it somewhere else.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Took it home.

[James Petregallo]

Mine now. Mine now. He pirated a fucking helicopter.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I like that. They call that. Is that what it's called when a helicopter is sitting still, that's parked?

[James Petregallo]

I guess, yeah. I mean, if cars.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Park a plane, too?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you park a plane, so why not? Chicago authorities charged him with theft of the gyrocopter. And he posted $5,000 this week for a court appearance in that city. So he's on multiple bails from multiple cities.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's in Trouble.

[James Petregallo]

March of 1969, he pleads innocent to a charge of pointing a gun at somebody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

Not the camera shop guy, different guy. He requests a jury trial for that one, as he always does. 1969, he's still not in jail somehow. And he's stopped by an Illinois State trooper for what they called a routine license plate check. He was charming. He's an affable guy. He hands the officer his business card. For ad biz. Yeah, I'm an ad man. Blah, blah, blah. Real. They have a nice five minute conversation. Has nothing to do with the ticket that he's going to get, the license plate check or anything. Just two guys bullshitting on the side of the road there. Then out of nowhere. This is Trooper Sven Ludingren. L, J, U, N G G R E N Just spen L J L J is the first lid. I don't know that. No. That's some Swedish shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

In the paper. They even give his goddamn address. A cop's address. They give that. That's crazy. Out of nowhere, while they're chatting pleasantly and the man's holding his business card. He takes out a gun and shoots the cop in the head. Shot him in the fucking head. Just out of nowhere for no reason. Wasn't like the guy was like. No, he survived somehow. Wow. Which is crazy. This was Route 12 there. Following the shooting, he took off. Obviously the bullet was removed from his jaw at the hospital. He shot him in the goddamn head. Which is crazy. They say the suspect who shot him is reported to be Gerald Daniel Walker. Who works for an advertising agency in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. He's also reported to be driving a stolen car. So that's what it was. He knew the car was coming back stolen and he didn't want to go back to jail.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So he shot a cop in the head on the side of the road. And he expected him to die. I would think so, yeah. He expected. That's enough of that guy. See you later. And now, November 3, 1969, he is found guilty of attempted murder and aggravated battery of a police officer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, that's bad shit.

[James Petregallo]

That seems bad. Seems real bad. I don't even think they had him with a stolen car. I think they let him go on that. They were like, this is heavy enough.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's gonna get out. He has to. Cause nobody's dead yet.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I'm saying. And the story, a lot of it takes place in 73. So you go, how does that happen? How do you get out in four years from shooting a cop in the head? Well, let's talk about it. So convicted of aggravated murder or attempted murder and aggravated battery. Sentenced to. This is on two different charges. You, sir, may fuck off. First charge, 16 to 20 years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Second charge, aggravated battery, eight to 10 years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Concurrent or consecutive?

[James Petregallo]

I'm not sure. And he's sent to Joliet Prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a bad one.

[James Petregallo]

Which doesn't seem terrific.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's Indiana, right?

[James Petregallo]

Joliet's Illinois.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Illinois, right.

[James Petregallo]

Right. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the one where Spec was at.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a bad prison.

[James Petregallo]

It's. It's. Yeah, it's not a good prison, I'll tell you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, no, no. It's high security.

[James Petregallo]

It's rough. It's known as a shit one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes.

[James Petregallo]

So now this here, he's at the Illinois State Prison, or state there. And they say that at this point, there's a guy named Detective Robert Swalwell, and he is the Sven's best friend. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's old Sven's best friend. So this guy takes a special interest in, obviously, the dude who shot his best friend. Sure. So he made it his personal mission to understand him. He said, oh. Cause he's like, this is a guy who has a successful career, but somehow does all this crime. His background is mild. None of this makes any sense. So this guy, as a cop is like, I haven't quite seen this animal before, and I wanna understand it, essentially. So he's looking at him like a zoo animal. He's gonna see his migration patterns and, you know, how they mate and eat and shit. So he talked to everyone who knew him, everyone who's ever met him. He went through 30 cardboard boxes of Walker's belongings to see who he is, what kind of guy, what's he got? He said he found him to be a textbook psychopath, period. Oh, a prison psychiatrist sort of agrees with this. As we'll talk about here is a psychiatrist assessment from Walker's prison file. I love that we have all this, by the way. This is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What did he find that he decided that before, just like 30 boxes full of a bunch of opened up Stretch Armstrongs or something.

[James Petregallo]

He did his whole background. He talked to everybody he's ever met, went into his family life, looked at his police record, did a whole macro overview of the guy, which seems like way. That's a way better way to get. Usually a psychiatrist would love to have all that information. Otherwise it's only self reporting that a psychiatrist can tell. So they usually don't get that much. He said a significant aspect of this man's personality is the ease with which his emotions are stimulated and the extent to which he acts out his feelings in an impulsive manner, which is exactly the definition of a psychopath. That's what it is. Because of his drive, in addition to a manipulative ability, he has experienced occasional brilliant success in the business world. However, this performance has not been consistent over the years. There is an underlying element of rage and anger within the inmate which occasionally surfaces and results in an impulsive and aggressive overt behavior. This individual is considered to be potentially very aggressive and perhaps homicidal. He shot a cop in the head.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty obvious.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's homicidal. You were looking for it. The detective Swalwell, the guy who was trying to figure him out, he has a lot shorter, more concise assessment of the man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Guy's a piece of shit.

[James Petregallo]

Quote, an evil man. Yeah. A man who could shoot you, then sit down and have lunch beside your body.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that what he did?

[James Petregallo]

That's just who he is, I think. No, he drove away, I'm sure when he left the cop on the side of the road. So. January 1963, obviously still an inmate. He is in the hospital now. This is insane, what he did to get into the hospital. This is a plan.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's not a cold.

[James Petregallo]

No. A lot of inmates who want to escape, they try to get to the hospital, and especially back in the day because the hospitals were way less secure. They just don't have security. Yeah. They don't have the facility. No, the actual, like a hospital. The prison infirmary can take care of so much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, and that's on site. The hospital's off site.

[James Petregallo]

If you have something really wrong with you, Then you have to go to a hospital, which, obviously the hospital doesn't have bars and razor wire. So it's just a few people to get past, and you're out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So January 73, he's brought to a hospital in Chicago where he's admitted for, quote, internal bleeding. Oh. But the blood was in his urine. Okay. What he was doing, he was drawing blood from his own arm with a needle and syringe and putting it in his urine samples.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So there was no blood inside him at all?

[James Petregallo]

No, no blood in his urine at all. He was getting blood out and just squirting a little in his urine so it looked like he had blood in his piss. And then he had to go to the hospital. So the prison let him do this. Apparently, he was in the bathroom just doing it. So at the hospital, he doesn't wear prison clothes. He wears his own silk pajamas and an expensive robe. He walks around like you, Hefner in this fucking place. With a pipe, too. He's got a pipe too?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I'm pissing blood.

[James Petregallo]

Pissing blood. He smokes a big Sherlock Holmes pipe, too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really big ass one.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's got one of those. With a silk robe, walking around the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hospital like that guy that wanders around the streets complimenting people.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. He offered the nurses vodka and orange juice that he somehow had gotten there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why does he have that?

[James Petregallo]

Don't know. Guards who were supposed to be watching him were found sleeping in the TV lounge. Nobody cared.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Because he doesn't seem like a guy you gotta keep an eye on. He's in an expensive robe. Where's he going? He's trustworthy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This guy tried to kill a cop, you guys.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, that's okay. He's feeling much better now. What's he gonna do with blood in his urine? Nothing. Guy has guy's blood, pisses full of blood. What's he gonna do? So, yeah, this is what he's up to now. Now this gets even weirder. Okay, January 31, 1973, he says he's gonna take a shower on another floor of the hospital. Yes. And they don't say, well, I'll come with you and watch you, you know? Cause you're a prisoner and all. They go, all right? And he just never came back. He just walked away. He just left.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I could have escaped from this place.

[James Petregallo]

Anybody can't. It's crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You just have to go. I'm gonna go do that. And they go, all right. And then you just walk out the Door. Nobody can.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'll be down at the vending machines.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, fine, go ahead. I'm gonna be down getting some vodka. Different floor, different floor. Why not? His hospital roommate went home a few days later and found his house had been fucking ransacked and robbed and his credit cards were missing. He scabbed at it. Yep. He extracted from his hospital roommate where he lived and all that shit, and went home and stole all his shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Clothes, everything. Just wiped the guy clean. Chris Walker is a refrigerator, ice trays. I think his ice trays were intact still. Within hours, the credit cards are being used at gourmet food shops, clothing stores all over Chicago. Basically, he's just running up bills. So it's crazy. I guess the way it happened, he had. Leading up to this, he had been in multiple hospitals. They put him in three different hospitals. He would often invite women to his room. He used it like a hotel suite. His hospital. And he even left twice to attend Chicago Bears football games. He went to the Bears game twice from the hospital and then came back and they didn't notice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I'd escaped, too. If I went to. I mean, if I'm going to.

[James Petregallo]

Comes back with kielbasa on his breath. What are we talking about here?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Came back with Portillo's under his arm, for Christ's sake.

[James Petregallo]

Problem here. So he said he thought the prison had forgotten about him, so he just walked off. Yeah, he said, quote, I paid my hospital bill, mailed back my prison issue underwear to the warden. He mailed his underwear back to the warden.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You can have these.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. Filed a change of address card with the post office, then went to a U.S. marshal's office to ask if there was any arrest warrants out for me. He said there weren't, so I thought I was free. He thought if you just walk away and they don't come find you, then that must be the end of your sentence. Unofficial parole.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So you're sentenced to 25 to 60 years unless you walk away. Get out of here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And the problem, he's not wrong. That's the fucked up part. The prison tried to get him back, but then an Illinois grand jury failed to return an escape indictment against him. How? I guess because they just let him out. I guess if you leave the front door of the prison open and all the gates open and everybody turns their back, it's not really an escape. You just kind of let them out at that point, didn't you? All right. I guess that's what they said. A federal judge ruled the prison, quote, officially abandoned him. He didn't escape. They abandoned him in the hospital. They just forgot about him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's a difference between escape and being let go.

[James Petregallo]

That's the craziest shit I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, I mean, if you're abandoned by a prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If you have a fish on the hook, James, and the hook snaps, that's on you.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, you abandoned that fish. He didn't escape. You abandoned it. That's how it works.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But if he wiggles off the hook, then it's on the fish, then it's. Then it's escaped, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. You had him. But, I mean, if it broke, then you abandoned him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, you got the wrong test. You're an idiot.

[James Petregallo]

You're a dummy. Go for the 12 pound, stupid. What are you doing? Should have known. Jesus. There's bass in here. It's not just trout. You gotta have the 12 pound. So he ends up heading west. And what he does is he leaves a trail of shit. Stolen credit cards being used all over the place. He writes his own lawyer taunting letters. For some reason, this guy is fun. He's a party at this point.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's he say to him?

[James Petregallo]

Well, one letter detailed his dinner the previous evening. Yeah, he just writes his letter just to mock him. Hey, look, I'm free. Look at that. A series of martinis, oysters on the half shell, turtle soup and sherry steak beaten with pepper on both sides and cooked to medium rare with mushrooms. And four Irish coffees. Four. He was. Four Irish coffees, a series of martinis and sherry. He must be handled.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Booze.

[James Petregallo]

Wow, that is. That's hammered. Another letter ended with quote, one might suspect. I am happy. I am not. This carries a price tag, One you never get to see until it's too late.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, what's that?

[James Petregallo]

This being on the run shit is tough.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's hard.

[James Petregallo]

It's hard. So, February 9, 1973, less than two weeks since he's escaped from the hospital. He checks into a Marriott in Ann Arbor, Michigan, for some reason. Also staying at the hotel was a jewelry salesman named Taylor Wright. This is a legitimate businessman who sells jewelry. He's in town to make sales and go to a conference or go to whatever the fuck expo or something. Jewelry now. Walker. Very good guy. Golden tongue. Son of a bitch. This guy, he befriends this Taylor Wright at a party at the hotel lobby. They're drinking conversation. This is before anybody had a phone in their hands. So the only thing to do was to talk to that guy. Otherwise, the guy next to you? Yeah. So sometime around 10pm Walker Wright said, I'm gonna head up now. Walker said, you know what? Good idea. Me too. I'm gonna head up, too. So they go up. Wow, you're on this floor. Me too. Hey, look at this. You really are alike. While Wright is going to his room, Walker comes up behind him, smashes him on the head, and drags him inside his room. Now, you think that's enough? He's got jewelry. He's gonna steal it? No, he's not satisfied with that. He spends the next four hours torturing this man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Torturing him?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, I'm talking beaten, bound with tape, stripped down to his underwear, gun in his mouth. Oh, boy, you name it. I mean, the next morning, this guy is all beaten to shit, still partially tied up. He drags himself out of the hotel room and finds a maid down the hallway who helps him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Walker stole all of this man's clothing, his shaving kit, his wallet, his American Express card, his driver's license, and even a graduation bracelet with the man's name on it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petregallo]

Everything this guy had. So the newspaper article from here says Taylor O. Wright III, 41, of Benton harbor, was held for four hours in his room at the Marriott Inn, 3600 Plymouth Road by two men and a woman. So apparently he had other people came in who beat him in an attempt to learn where he kept his jewelry, which he had for sale. Probably came in and put it in a safety deposit box or something that I would think you wouldn't carry around.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maybe he's got it in the safe.

[James Petregallo]

Or maybe the hotel as a safe too. A lot of times the hotel would have a main safe. They'd keep shit in back in the day, especially if you're kind of high rolling kind of a person like that. He also took his wallet containing $75. Officers said the three bandits left Wright's car, which contained a large amount of jewelry, in the parking lot. So he got everything but his car, and that's where the jewelry was. This guy was dumb enough to leave his jewelry in a fucking car in a hotel parking lot and he got to keep it? Yep. And they tortured him for four hours and didn't think of that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So for the next two weeks, G. Daniel Walker is now Taylor Wright. He's got a bracelet that says it and everything. Who's gonna question him? He rented cars with dude's credit card, he stayed at nice hotels, and he makes his way to Southern California as well. February 21st, 1973, Walker checks into the Beverly Hilton using Taylor Wright's American Express car in Beverly Hills. He rented a brand new white Lincoln Continental and started just. I'm gonna be in California now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just having it. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

All right. Now let's talk about a young lady at this point who enters the story. This is Hope Nivens. Later on she'll be Hope Masters. And a couple other names too. She's 31 in 1973, so she's a little younger than him. 10 years or so. She's born about 1940 or 42. I mean, apparently her original name was. She had a middle name at first, Hope Elise Nivens. And her mother later went down to the city hall and deleted the Elise from her birth certificate. I don't know why. I don't know if it was named after somebody who she doesn't like anymore. Whatever. Now her parents divorced when she was 2, which is a big deal in 1945. That's huge. I mean, divorce was disgrace. I mean, holy shit. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to shop with Thrive Market.

[Jimmy Wissman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

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[James Petregallo]

Even to get a divorce, there wasn't no fault divorce. Back then, you couldn't just go, yeah, we're not getting along, we're getting a divorce. There had to be like someone. You had to say there was adultery or, you know, violence or something like that to get a divorce.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or she's in a wheelchair and she's useless to me.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she's useless to me. Ass not as good as it used to be. I think they probably grant a man a divorce for that in 1941. You know what? Divorce is looking a little wide. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Gravity, you, Honor.

[James Petregallo]

A couple of kids have sagged her out good, you, Honor. And he goes, oh, my goodness, you're right, son. Divorced. Fucking gaveled. Banging. So divorced when she's two. So her mother is also named Hope. Her mother goes by Honey. That's her nickname. Honey and Hope. She said her mother was too busy dating, playing tennis and traveling to raise her daughter. Her mom's a socialite being, Honey. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, she's like a socialite. She's out doing the party scene over here in California and doesn't really take care of her. Her father, James Stagliano, was a professional French horn player.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, they've got those.

[James Petregallo]

How many of those do you hear about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I guess you only need two, right?

[James Petregallo]

A couple. You think you need one with every symphony?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, you need one and then another when that guy's busy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I think gigs come up. You can't be busy. You're the regional French horn player. I don't think you're allowed to be busy. It's like if you're a doctor in a small town, if someone comes knocking on your door at 3am you gotta fix their dog bite. That's all there is to it. Yeah. So this guy, she called him her quote, wild Italian father, and he moved back east to play with the Boston Symphony when she was a little girl.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

So he's a very good French horn player. So she was raised basically by her grandmother in a huge Spanish style mansion in Beverly Hills. Oh, it's her and her grandmother in a giant house in Beverly Hills. So this is a real, a different story than we normally tell here. This isn't in the trailer and stepdad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Filter up in LA are very common. They're beautiful.

[James Petregallo]

Oh yeah. This is one of those big old time Beverly Hills mansions. I mean it's fucking cool. So her grandmother would tell her when she was a kid that your mother needs to be taken care of and you should learn how to do that. Which is probably the worst thing you could tell a kid is take care of your parents. That's not good for them at all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

When they're a kid.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, not at all. Yeah, when they're 80. Yeah. When you're an adult but you can't tell an 8 year old. You gotta take care of your parents.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Keep off your 32 year old mother.

[James Petregallo]

Wanna make a codependent forever. There you go. Enjoy. So that's a little weird. When Hope was 11, her grandmother died and her mother basically is trying to find a way to not have to watch her and continue to live her life. Yeah. So she's apparently sending her to all these different private schools. She hates the private school, doesn't like it. Loves the public school she's sent to though. Likes that. She wants to be. I don't think she enjoys the hoity toity.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The lifestyle, the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

With money. They're no fun to be around.

[James Petregallo]

They're no fun probably. Yeah. So. So her mother would kept putting her back in elite private schools and she hated it because she's going to girls school. These are all back then. These are not co ed private schools. So an all girls school, there's no guys there, there's no boys, probably not a party. Yeah, if you're 16 and you like boys, that kind of sucks. Same thing if you're a guy, you go into an all boys school. If you were going to an all girls school, you'd be thriving. If you were a boy it'd be great. So she had a blue uniform at this one, Westlake blue uniform with white ankle socks. And she cried every day because nobody liked her. And she by the way, is hot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's why they don't like her.

[James Petregallo]

She's blonde and all this and. Yeah. She just doesn't get along with the other rich kids for some reason. For her 16th birthday, her dad flew her to New York and took her to the Stork Club.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What is that?

[James Petregallo]

It's a nightclub in New York I think though that used to be like a jazz club back in the day. And I don't know what it was in. In 19. Because this would be 1958. So it'd still be like a jazz club, I would think one of those. Nightclub Copacabana. That's that type of thing. So they were thrown out, her and her dad of the club. Yeah. For quote. I've never heard this. For, quote, fancy dancing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, they're swing dancing.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know what that is. I don't know what fancy dancing is. I hope it's not dirty dancing. I'm creeped out if it is. But they got tossed out for fancy dancing. Can't have any of that stuff. So Hope here decides that she doesn't like any of these schools. She doesn't like any of this shit. She actually had, like, a debutante ball thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

She made her debut. That's how rich they are. Rich people make their debuts and their daughters go to a ball, introduced to the rich.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck coronation.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Oh, that's like an old. You know, they did it with all the old English people and shit, and they brought it over here. But when did they do that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What age is it? Like a sweet.

[James Petregallo]

Sweet. It means you're available. No, it's like 18. 17. 18. It means come a courting. Yeah, that's what that means.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's corkin'.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's it. So this is the Las Madrinas Ball. And she also said that her mother's telling her, you're going to Stanford.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, and you're going to do this.

[James Petregallo]

You're going to Stanford, you're coming out, you're making your debut. Instead, she hooks up with the boy next door and drives to Mexico and gets married.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's fun.

[James Petregallo]

You can put tight reins on your kids, but at some point, they're gonna.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do something you're gonna hate.

[James Petregallo]

She was only 16 when this happened.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's illegal.

[James Petregallo]

Well, in Mexico it's fine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, but it's illegal to go across borders, right?

[James Petregallo]

Probably. He was 19.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. He's thrown into jail for that.

[James Petregallo]

They didn't tell their parents because she was afraid that the parents would annul the marriage. So they came back from Mexico and pretended like they weren't married. They pretended like they just saw each other, basically, until she got to be 18, and then the parents couldn't do anything about it. That's what the problem is here. Now. She's really smart. This. I don't know. This isn't a newspaper article, but I can't imagine this is true now. So she enrolled at USC before finishing high school. Somehow, I don't know how they let.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Her do that dual enrollment. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They said her IQ, this is why they let her in, because her IQ was 183.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Which is like top 20 of all time. Human beings that have been recorded, like.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Literally, they usually go off GPA, but.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, we'll go with IQ. So apparently 183 though is. I think Einstein was like 180.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. I don't.

[James Petregallo]

She's going to split the fucking atom, this broad. Like, what's going on?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I rarely take IQ as like genuine anymore. I don't know. Is there something about it that seems like there's a stigma to it, that it's bullshit?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know all the. I mean, I'm not a. Whatever, but I imagine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I imagine back when all these geniuses were around, they did their IQ and it was outstanding and I do mine and it's ridiculous, it's embarrassing.

[James Petregallo]

But seems like the people with the high IQs are really smart, so. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

But I'm not.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is there a study recently? I feel like. I feel like IQs have just been like. I don't know, it's almost.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, it's almost been like politicized a little bit, but I mean, it's still dumb. People with low IQs can be very successful. People with high IQs can be crazy and have no success and not be able to get out of bed in the morning. Right. I don't think it matter. But you have a greater ability to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

For it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. I don't think someone with an 86 IQ is gonna understand physics if you told them about it. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. They don't have the capacity. That's what I'm saying. It's just a smaller bandwidth. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The number probably correlates to ability for sure.

[James Petregallo]

Potential ability doesn't mean that you have.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whether or not you use it. Right.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. How big. How big is your vat? Essentially, for sure. Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that makes more sense.

[James Petregallo]

Kind of a deal. That's the way I would look at it. Like. Yeah, I'm making people. Yeah. I'm.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm boiling water in a, in a, in a macaroni pot to try to make, you know, a family size helping a spaghetti. Whereas somebody else is very capable of.

[James Petregallo]

Some people, it's just a ketchup ramekin from Red Lobster, you know, so it's tough. You never know. Everybody's different.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And I'm using the microwave to do it. So.

[James Petregallo]

At 20 years old, she has two kids already. Two kids. What her life was. She was Supposed to go to Stanford and have all the success. Instead, she has two kids, 184.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She knows how that works.

[James Petregallo]

Apparently. She later said she divorced her first husband because, quote, he was a boring stay at home. Not exciting enough for her. Exciting when she was 16 and not allowed out of the house. Sure, that was when it was exciting. But then by the time she's 20, she's going, hold on a second. That's not exciting anymore. He's just the guy next door. So she gets married again. This is to a guy named Tom Masters. That's where she gets her name, Hope Masters. Now he is a public relations guy. Yeah, they have a third child together in the 60s. In the 70s or. No, this is the 60s. She's 20. So this is early 60s. They have a third child and then that marriage falls apart. Oh, no, she says, because Tom was, quote, too much of a playboy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, so she's really Goldilocks in the fuck out of marriage here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's too boring, he's too exciting. Let's find somebody just lukewarm enough. So now she's young at this point. Well, we'll catch her up with her at 31. Age 31. So this is 1972, 73. She's divorced with three children, living in Beverly Hills on $435 a month that she's getting.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You can't do that even then, right?

[James Petregallo]

This is from child support from two ex husbands and a small allowance from her mother as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just enough hope.

[James Petregallo]

One week. She said her and her kids survived on nothing but potatoes and milk. That's all I had the money for.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Gross.

[James Petregallo]

She had no health insurance. She's. I mean, still, you could go to the hospital back then, get five surgeries, they'd send you a bill for $600. You know what I mean? So that's not that bad. But it's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It makes some potatoes and milk for us.

[James Petregallo]

We'll be all right. It's fine. I remember my grandmother telling me what her first. Having her first child cost her. She had to have a surgery when she first got to the United States. And they had to go to the hospital and they said they had to save for it for two months to be able to afford it. You know what I mean? And I'm like, a surgery now, you could save for 30 years and you would be able to afford it. So that's pretty fun.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just the drugs for the surgery is 30 grand.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, that was like 1949 we're talking about. So anyway, no health insurance. No credit card. Here she is in the blue book social register, which is like the hoity toity people who have debutante balls. But her children get free school lunches because she's so broke. Okay, so it's a real weird dichotomy with her. Now there's a woman named Joan Barthol who wrote a book on this case. I suggest you read it if you're interested in this case. She did a great job. She described her thusly, quote, just over five feet and weighed 90 pounds. Ooh, Hope. Yeah. She had smoky green eyes and a small boned oval face. Champagne colored hair streamed past her shoulders and she looked more like a sultry teenager than a mother of three children.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A smoke show.

[James Petregallo]

Smoke show. No, she's. You look at her, you go, jesus, she's gorgeous. Especially for back then. Like, damn, the Sharon Tate reference is not far off. No, no, she's also, I like to call her a gatherer of lost puppies. Oh, yeah, that doesn't mean just puppies, obviously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's a collector of broken people.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she's real soft, she's real nice. She takes in dozens of stray cats over the years. Even runaway children she'll take in, which sounds illegal and I don't know if you shouldn't do that. Probably, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You can't be the underground railroad for children.

[James Petregallo]

No shit. With her former. Not even her maid at the time, a former maid from when she was young or with her other husband or something, turned up pregnant. Hope took her in and even attended the birth signing forms claiming to be family so she could be in the delivery room with her. A friend called Hope's house, quote, an early crash pad, like before crash pads became a real popular thing. She had one, basically. So 1971, she finds William T ashlock, a S H L O C K. He is born in 1933 here. So he's in his late 30s, goes by Bill. They met at a Christmas party in December of 72 and she felt right away that he was the room temperature porridge. This is the one I found my porridge man. He's an advertising executive in Los Angeles, which that's good. He's an eligible bachelor. He's 40 years old. He looks 25. Everybody says that's great. And he's obsessed with fitness and this is in the early 70s, so there's no, you know, he's not watching YouTube videos that are filling his head full of bullshit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's not flipping a tractor tire down the. He's actually doing some actual healthy shit. Huh.

[James Petregallo]

He jogged three miles every day. He ate yogurt or cottage cheese for lunch, that kind of thing. This was at the time. Still, if you know, like I said again, Mad Men, if you know anything about ad executives, this is. They come every lunch, they come back shit faced from five martinis and take a nap until their afternoon meeting. And he doesn't do that at all. He has cottage cheese for lunch. Yeah, he would run laps and eat granola during the day. So I mean, different kind of guy. He worked at Daily and Associates, which is a very good back then advertising agency on Wilshire Boulevard in la. So legit as fuck this guy. And he's cool, this cat man. He's a cool guy. He has a cool sports car back then, so like probably a little like a 63 vet with a split window and shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Picturing him in 60 is either that or one of those Porsche speedsters or something.

[James Petregallo]

Cool.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He has pilots? Yeah, yeah, he has a pilot's license. He's a cool guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's doing it. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Interesting. He's handsome and successful. He's also in the middle of his second divorce, just like she is, which is interesting. Helpful.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, we could commiserate.

[James Petregallo]

He's described as quiet but not boring, successful but not flashy. So yeah. And they start hooking up and kind of planning a little future. They're talking about marriage and everything like that. Things are looking wonderful. Every morning Bill woke up at 6am to exercise while watching educational programs on TV with the kids. He's learning while he sweats with the kids.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petregallo]

He's making, watching TV with the kids. Yeah. And then he'd make breakfast. He bought granola by like the 20 pound burlap sack. Yeah, he's got that. He was nothing. They called him attentive, present, responsible. This is the perfectly warmed porridge right here. This is exactly what she was looking for. Okay, February 23rd through February 27th, 1973. Let's talk about, by the way, someone who has kind of hopes past. How often do they actually enjoy the person who they should like?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it's very rare, very rare. You always find somebody who settles or they find the fucking damage that they did this to them.

[James Petregallo]

And also too, not to get too psychological, but dad left, took off, wasn't around. She. For her to find somebody stable and want to be there, that's a sign of a lot of growth because she should hate this and want to be treated badly and want to be left places. That's in the back of her mind. That's what happens a lot. Unless you get a bunch of therapy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And whether or not she wants it versus what she actually gets is two different things also. You just gravitate to it because it's home.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. That's what I mean. That's what feels right. And you feel like this just doesn't feel right. He's being nice to me and things are okay and I'm not struggling and I'm not scrambling. Yep. It's just I have the same thing with moving.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Soon as I'm comfortable somewhere, I'm like, well, you should move now. Right. Like, because I grew up, I lived in like 30 places in 10, in eight years when I was a kid. So I'm like, I don't get comfortable anywhere. This is the longest in my house right now, where we are. This is the longest I've ever lived anywhere in my entire life, ever. It's been five years. The longest I ever lived anywhere. So. 10:30am, February 23rd, Hope's maid, Martha Padilla, I assume that's the pregnant one that she hung out with there, knocked on her bedroom door and said, bill is calling. It's earlier than he usually calls. Usually calls at lunch, I think. And Hope picks up and Bill says, listen to this. You want to have the biggest laugh of your life? I do. I'm in. For some crazy reason, I'm gonna be interviewed. A guy called me and said he's doing a story for the LA Times on the 10 most eligible bachelors in town and he wants to interview me. What? And Hope said, well, tell him you're not a bachelor.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, tell him you're not eligible.

[James Petregallo]

But they're not. He's not married. He's divorced now. So technically he's a bachelor. But, you know, he thinks this will just be good for business. So he's like, I'm not trying to get troll for chicks here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's like, yeah, this is gonna get a rainfall of panties. Stop it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, this is gonna be fucking women chasing you with flowers and shit. Some weird Beatles fucking thing. So at 11.50am, a well dressed man carrying a carved pipe walks into Daly and Associates. He tells the receptionist that his name is Taylor Wright from Los Angeles.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I remember him.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, remember that name, Taylor Wright. He said he has a lunch appointment with Bill Ashlock.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

The lunch lasted four hours.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow, that's a lunch.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. Which is really fucking weird. But they just talked. They hit it off and, you know, by the time they finished, Bill was. All of his meetings were fucked. Up. It's a mess. But they talked for like a long time and four hours. They're gonna have a hell of an article on this guy. Boy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So by around 3 o', clock, bill returns to the office very excited. He tells his boss about the interview and the boss is surprised. He's like, oh, this isn't like you to be excited about publicity. But he said that Bill seemed flattered by it. Just the attention. He thought it was pretty cool, you know, he thought it was Los Angeles Times. They want to talk to me about what a handsome, dashing guy I am, you know?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm so fuckable.

[James Petregallo]

Look at me. Who wouldn't want to fuck me? So 5:30pm, Taylor Wright calls Hope's house because Bill had told him he was going to be over there. So Bill answers the phone and they make arrangements for Taylor Wright to come to the ranch the next day to take pictures for the article.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I need more.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, there's a ranch out in Springville. Hope like that. Hope was pissed because this was supposed to be their weekend to hang out and now you're doing work stuff and we have to go out there and take pictures. This is bullshit, basically. So that same evening, Hope and Bill drive the three hours to River Valley Ranch in Springville. And this is a 500 acres of mountains in the Sierra Nevada foothills. That's there, this ranch.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Natural geysers of fucking, I'm sure soda. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's popping out everywhere. I love it. You can scoop the Mountain Dew from the streams, Jimmy. It's wild.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's crystal clear.

[James Petregallo]

Crystal clear. Mountain Dew. Hope's mother, Honey, and her stepfather owned a quarter interest in this property.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

That's how she ended up being able to use it for this photo shoot. Because there's horses. It's a cool like western setting.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ross Cook. Fuck yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Put some boots on, take my shirt.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Off and get on a fucking horse.

[James Petregallo]

So they stay in the guest cottage. They made a fire, they drank wine. They stayed up all night, Bill and Hope. And they talked about their past and their future. They talked about marriage. They talked about this is it right here. We're both finally happy. Our futures are just going to be wonderful. Saturday afternoon here, 2-24-73, early afternoon. Here comes Taylor Wright, pulls up in a big white Lincoln Continental.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hell yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. As we've heard about before, Guy steps out. He's a tall, tanned man wearing dark slacks, a red turtleneck with a white shirt over it and a leather jacket. 1973. Wow. The worst fashion. Jesus. He's carrying a carved pipe. He says, Bill says to Hope, hopey, this is Taylor Wright. And he said, she says to Taylor Wright, hi, Taylor. Where'd you get that terrific tan?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, well, in California.

[James Petregallo]

It's in Southern California. I don't know. I went outside for a while.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Look around. Dickhead.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's right. There's this place with a bunch of sand near the ocean that people tend to go pretty cool. He said, I've been skiing. Which. Okay, hold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So you're windburned? Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You don't get tanned from skiing. You get sunburned, usually from what I've.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Seen, just on the face because everything else is covered the fuck off with something very insulated.

[James Petregallo]

Lots of layers of it, as a matter of fact. So they sat in the living room. Bill is on the sofa by the window looking handsome, I'm sure. Taylor here is in a rocking chair near the fireplace. Hope serves wine and cheese. And Hope is talking. Hope yip yaps a lot, as we'll find out from something later on. She is a talker. Boy, oh, man. Never shuts up. So.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, James, he was joking. He was trying to be affable when he said, I've been skiing. It's a joke.

[James Petregallo]

I've been skiing. I get it. I get it now. That's possible. Yeah. Well, it's such a. Such a.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Such a stupid thing to say joke.

[James Petregallo]

That two comedians couldn't figure out. It's a joke. So I'd say, back to the writing room on that one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what he's doing. He's joking.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. So she talks about her life. She talks about her mother and her stepfather. She called them stiff and unbending as the American eagle, quote unquote. She called her mother. She talked about her kids, and she just talks about everything that you would tell a good friend who said, tell me what's on your mind. Not a stranger you just met who came to take pictures of your husband.

[Jimmy Wissman]

For the newspaper or your boyfriend calling her mom stiff and her dad unbending. That's a rigid ass couple.

[James Petregallo]

That is rigid. So Taylor Wright is listening. He's listening. She says, how did you happen to pick Bill as a distinguished bachelor? And Taylor Wright says, while he drives a sports car, he's got a pilot's license. And he points to her. He dates attractive women. What more do you want for an eligible bachelor? So late afternoon, when the sun is just right, get that golden time, they go down to the river to take pictures. Hope slips on the damp grass and almost falls Down. But Taylor Wright saves her. Caught her around the waist and held her and held her and picked her back up as they climbed back up the bank. I'm sure both hands on the ass cheeks as he pushed. No, no, I got you. Here. No, let me push. So she said, you didn't tell me your birthday, but I know exactly what you are. You're a Leo the Lion.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Which sounds flirty.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And he actually is a Leo, which is a strange part. August 10th. Moving along. Nope.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I hate it so much.

[James Petregallo]

I know. And in the 70s, that was real big. I mean, it is now, but in the 70s, that was people's whole personalities for a while there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, man.

[James Petregallo]

Hope was impressed by how he handled himself. He's so confident and commanding and, you know, he's tall and he even was directing the ranch foreman with easy authority. He's just a. He's a man's man. She's impressed. So by dinner time, Hope was basically ready for a nap. Here she was dizzy and tired. They drank wine, and she takes pain pills for her chronic back problem. So she's mixing wine and pills at this point. I don't know what those pills are, but any pain pills, unless they're ibuprofen mixed with alcohol is gonna make you feel a little sleepy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's probably gonna be a perk. Back then, who knows?

[James Petregallo]

I'm sure they had muscle relaxers back then, too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But a pain pill was likely like, something's wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Could have been anything you wanted, drinking wine or something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She said, I have to go to bed right now. I'll see you tomorrow. Which is what you would say when you're on pills and wine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I literally have 13 seconds. Gotta run. My legs are about to be useless.

[James Petregallo]

Let me know if I wander out in the desert in the night. Wake me up, please. So, quote, taylor Wright is still there. He's still in the rocking chair. She says, I have to go to bed. I'll see you tomorrow. Bill follows her down into the bedroom. She told him she was just taking a nap and to wake her up when Taylor Wright leaves. Then she fell into a deep sleep immediately. She had to go to bed. You bet. Bill goes back to the living room, to the sofa. He's drinking his drink. He's hanging out with Taylor Wright in the rocking chair. And this next bit comes from specifically Hope's account of everything. Okay, this is from interviews with the author Joan Barthol, and from a lot of other things. So some of this Is from Hope's book, called Hope's from her. Oh, no, that's from Joan's book.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm sorry.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. This is from Joan's book now. Okay. Hope said she was yanked out of a deep sleep by something cold and metallic being shoved into her mouth. A gun, obviously. The room is pitch black. And she said she just sees a shape looming over her and can feel metal in her mouth and can tell it's a gun. So this is from the book here. Hope jerked her head away from the cold, hard object in her mouth, rolled across the bed, then across another twin bed. She ran out of the bedroom and through the hall door into the living room. Bill. She screamed, bill, help me. Okay. Living room was dark, but there's a little bit of glow of the fire because that's dying down in the coals. You can still see something. She could still see Bill sitting in his usual place at the end of the sofa nearest the fireplace. His feet are stretched up on the coffee table. He's holding a drink in his left hand and resting it on the arm of the sofa. His eyes are closed. Looks like he fell asleep with his drink. That's a great way to fall asleep, by the way. By the fire. She runs across the room and sees the rocking chair is empty. So she said, okay, Taylor Wright is gone. So then she said, oh, my God, a maniac must have come in the room. Now, there's a man who just had a gun in her mouth in the bedroom.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a maniac.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Most maniacs, when they put a gun in your mouth, they just don't let you roll out of it and run away. That's why they put a gun in your mouth. To keep you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right? Yeah. Keeps you there. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So she is, you know, she's screaming, bill, help me. Bill, help me. She got to the sofa and grabbed Bill by the shoulders and shook him, and his head wobbled and fell backward against the sofa. So she said, bill, Bill, wake up. Help me. So then a voice came from behind the sofa, from the darkness in the dining area, and it said, he can't help you. He's dead. So she kept shaking Bill, though, and screaming, help me. Wake up. Help me. Not. Are you okay? Help me. Which is telling. Then the voice, the way she described it in a very calm, flat monotone, and she didn't recognize the voice. She said again, he can't help you. He's dead, she said. Then someone approached her from behind and grabbed her by the hair her and pulled her away from the Sofa. He wrapped her arms around her back and spun her around facing the fireplace. Then when she let go of Bill's shoulders, at that moment, she said she heard a heavy thud. She said the man holding her arms thrust them out in front of her and said, look at all the blood. See all that blood? He's dead. He's dead. Showing her hands like. He put her hands out so she could see it in the light of the fire. That you have blood all over your hands from shaking it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So she could see then that her arms and hands were covered in blood. And she said she began to vomit immediately.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

She ran for the bathroom and the man ran after her, tearing at her clothes. She said the blouse she had unbuttoned when she laid down came off as she ran. She said in the bathroom, she fell to her knees and groped in the darkness for the toilet bowl so she could vomit. The man said, go into the bedroom. She said, leave me alone. I'm going to choke to death. She said she felt heavy arms around her. She grabbed a towel and jammed it up against her mouth as the man half dragged, half carried her into the bedroom, bumping into walls along the way. Remember, she's £90. You pick her up under one arm.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very light.

[James Petregallo]

He threw her onto the bed nearest the window, the bed that she had been sleeping in. And he said, I don't need a gun to kill you. I could crack your neck with one hand. And he put his hand around her neck. She heard a thunking sound. Never heard that word before. Thunking. You know what it is, but I just never heard it before. And she felt his body pressing on hers. He was wearing some kind of sweater and nothing else. That's a good outfit, Dick hanging out in a sweater. Winnie the Little Chilly, I was gonna say. Just dress like Fozzie. There, that's nice. Fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very chilly, Fozzie.

[James Petregallo]

Very chilly Fozzie Bear. But he's got jokes, so it's okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Went skiing.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God. Yeah, he went skiing. That's about the level of Fozzie as a joke.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Waka waka.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, God. Speaking of waka waka. This gets worse.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

She felt his body pressing on hers. He was wearing some kind of sweater. Nothing else. She said she laid perfectly still and passive and he raped her. She said she was thinking the whole time, bill isn't dead. Bill isn't dead. He's just unconscious. And when this man is done doing this, he'll leave and then I can help Bill. That's what she said, her thought process was. She said the man was kissing her violently. All over her neck and hair and breasts and all over her body. Rubbing her, grabbing her all over. Or she said, as though he had a hundred hands. And he said to her, if you make this fun enough for me, maybe I won't kill you. He kept kissing her at the same time. And then suddenly he got up and she could hear him thrashing around the room in the darkness. And he said to her, I heard you're a real party girl, a real swinger. I heard you can do all kinds of interesting things and that Orel is your specialty.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Where'd he hear that?

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Around the criminal fucking Winnie the Pooh graveyard. Didn't hear that in Christopher Robbins forest, I'll tell you that much. Jesus Christ. No, no, no. She said, leave me alone. I can't do anything. Leave me alone. And then he got on top of her again and was rubbing all over. And he said, and I can do anything. What would you like me to do? Do you like oral sex? Anal sex?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. Hope said, I don't want to do anything. I can't do anything. Leave me alone. And then she said he raped her again. She said, you're hurting me. But he said this time it was more ferocious. She said she felt as though she were in a cage with a gorilla. So then he laid still, heavy against her body. And she said she felt colder than she ever felt in her life. It was very cold in the room, too. She said it flashed across her mind that evil brings a feeling of intense cold. Okay, all right. It's enough with the Leo and then.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is Evil Spiritual gal.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, the temperature is irrelevant here. This is evil.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor there is. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Except what you don't want is a home security system that only goes off after someone's already inside.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't want that.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

So he raised his head slightly and said, I can't leave you alive. You could identify me. And she said, I don't know even who you are. Right. He said, you know, I'm about 6ft tall and about 20 pounds overweight, and you know that my hair is beginning to thin in the back.

[Jimmy Wissman]

My name's Taylor.

[James Petregallo]

I was gonna say, any other details you wanna give? You know, my license plate number and, you know, she said, I don't know what you're talking about. There's millions of people who could fit that description. I don't know who you are. I'd never be able to Identify you? Please go away. Take my car and go away now. This is a ranch in the middle of nowhere. You think he walked up here? He's got a fucking vehicle. So he got up and she lay motionless. She said she heard the sound of tape being ripped and then was being rolled over on her side. He pulled her hands behind her and her feet up toward her hands and he hogtied her with adhesive tape. He said, don't scream. If you have any ideas about screaming for the foreman, I'll just kill him and you too. And then he covered her up with blankets. He tucked them in around her neck and bent over and put his face against her cheek and said, I love you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

Oh boy. Then she heard the door close. She said, no sound anywhere. Stillness for a while. She said she hoped she felt like she was hallucinating and that none of this was happening and none of it was real. And when you're on pills and wine too, and it's dark, you gotta feel like this is some sort of alternate reality. So. Her heart, she said, is pounding. She could feel it. She's, you know, she's a big nerve ending. At this point, she said, after a long time, she heard a sound. Someone was there again, sounding agitated, but not wild and violent. She said it didn't sound like the wild animal man who had been there earlier. He pulled the blankets back and felt her hands. Oh, very clever, he said in a normal tone of voice. You've unwrapped your hands. She managed to squeeze her hands out of the tape at one point. Very clever, very clever, she said. It was hurting so much. I'm not going to try to do anything. Is Bill dead? Oh, please tell me Bill isn't dead. Please go see if Bill is really dead. The man said, I've seen him and he's dead. So she said. She began to moan and say, oh my God. Oh my God, why Bill? So she said, pain is surging through her head now. She's got a bad headache too. And she said, you know, just all these images of Bill and Bill holding her and kissing her gently and everything like that. And she says, do you know, did he suffer? And he said, no, he never saw the gun. She said, oh, why, why, why Bill? And this man said, quote, because he was with you. Oh yeah. And she said, with me? You mean he's dead because of me? And he said, that's right. Uh huh. And she said, why me, but why me? And he said, because someone wants you dead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, this is getting crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She was like, what the fuck? She said, why me? Why would anybody want me dead? I've never hurt anyone in my life. Why me? And the guy said, because you're going to court next week. And Hope said, oh, my God. Oh, my God, that's only a couple hundred dollars a month. She's going to court about child support next week. So then when the man spoke, she said he sounded confused. He said, well, I don't know, then there must be something else. And she heard him pacing around the room at the foot of the bed and said, I didn't want to get involved in any of this. This isn't my job. I got involved at this at the very last minute. He says, I'm a. You know, they picked me up at the 11th hour. This is crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I was just on deck.

[James Petregallo]

I'm a waiver wire pickup. Yeah, sign me to a 10 day. Because somebody tweaked their knee a little bit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Somebody else said, the cases first.

[James Petregallo]

That's crazy. So he would pace for a while and stop and stand still. Sometimes talking in a normal voice, sometimes muttering, sometimes talking loudly. Sometimes he would leave the room for a while. Sometimes when he would return, he would rub her body up and down. Then he said, sometimes because she said, sometimes he rubbed her with the gun, too. Once when he came back in, he pushed her face to one side of the pillow and said, don't move. And a flashbulb popped.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, like a light.

[James Petregallo]

He turned her face to the other side and there was another flash.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Taking pictures.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Then he took a third flash picture, full face. So he did like a mugshot deal. Left, right, center. He said, if I decide to let you live, which I haven't decided, and the day ever comes when you do anything to send the authorities after me, the organization will have your picture and you will be killed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The organization?

[James Petregallo]

The Organization, yeah. He said, I'm going to let you keep your hands unbound.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So at some point during this night, she said she had no idea of the time of any of this. She said that his eyes became more. Her eyes became more accustomed to the darkness. And she knew that the man she was talking to was Taylor Wright, which at this point, we know is G. Daniel Walker.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Obviously, we know it's not his name.

[James Petregallo]

Right. So he has really escalated his shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, no shit.

[James Petregallo]

Stolen cars and jewelry and shit like that. This is a murder. And a terrible. And more.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, Terrible treatment of a woman in rape.

[James Petregallo]

At least that's what it seems like. And we'll talk about that. So anyway, she didn't call him Taylor, and she didn't say she knew it was Taylor. He seemed to assume she knew because part of the conversation referred to as Saturday afternoon. So she's like, okay. Hope said, okay. Why did I let you come here? I didn't want you to come. I didn't invite you. But Bill invited you to come. I could never say no to Bill, right? And he said, it doesn't matter. I would have come anyway. There's a contract out on you. Hope set a contract? I don't know. And then Walker said, well, I have been misled. You were supposed to be about 45 years old with grown up children, and you were supposed to be a drug addict and an alcoholic, and you were giving your children drugs and making them sex perverts and ruining them. And Hope said, the children. What if I had brought the children? The children were. And then he said, the children were supposed to come, and the two older children were supposed to be killed, but the youngest one was to be removed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, kidnapped, huh?

[James Petregallo]

Think about that. She just said remove. Now, the two older kids come from her first marriage. The other ones come from Tom Masters. So he said, I would rather not kill you, but now I have to because of the contract. My hands are tied.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I gotta make the money, lady.

[James Petregallo]

He said, I should have killed you when you were asleep. If I leave you alive, I'll get into trouble. You know, I can't. I'm gonna have a meeting. They're gonna bring me into hr. You know how it goes, man. It's gonna be a huge pain in the dick. So she heard him pacing near the window, and he said, quote, this is not my job. I don't like it. I've only killed one woman. But she was 45 years old and she was a spy in the Arab Israeli war. Oh, pardon.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How did he get there?

[James Petregallo]

Whoa. But you're a good person, and you're a good mother. Anybody who would pick up an ugly child with a runny nose that isn't even hers must be a good mother. He knows that she takes kids in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ugly ones.

[James Petregallo]

Ugly ones, shitty kids that aren't even hers. He said, I would rather die than go back to jail. Why the hell. Why the hell he didn't just get you last week after you left the restaurant? I cannot figure out. I'm pissed off about that. They're really screwing me here. That's the problem.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Sure, your fiance's been killed and you've been raped repeatedly, but, you know, this is inconvenient. For me.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

I'm a little inconvenient. So Hope was saying, restaurant, restaurant. And he said, when you and Bill were at a restaurant last weekend, he was supposed to follow you when you left the restaurant and get you. Then when you went home. The restaurant was the Brown Derby, which was a very famous restaurant in LA that's no longer there. She and Bill had gone back to his apartment instead of back to her house. She remembered thinking it would be all right to leave the youngest kid with Martha overnight because he'd be asleep by then, so it'd be fine. So Walker keeps talking, telling her things, asking her things. He seems to know a shitload about Bill, but he asks whether Bill lived with her or someplace else. He knew a lot about her, too. He knew her address, where her mother lived, about the burglar alarm system on her mother's house.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

He talked about her stepfather's heart condition. This is real specific shit. She was like, what the fuck? How does this work? How do you know all this? There's no way over the course of you guys having a fireside chat, you've gleaned all this info, which he could. We know this. He's good at pulling info out of people enough to rob their house when he leaves the hospital.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And he hangs onto the information and doesn't let go of it. Of it until he uses it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's interesting. So Hope then said, who wants me killed? And he said, your husband. She said, which husband? I have had two husbands. Yeah. And he said, you have two husbands? And he said, well, I don't know. I don't know which husband, but your husband wants you dead. One of them. Which one is more likely to want you dead? I would think, you know, got a name. And she said. He sounded confused and angry and said, I didn't want this job, but the guy that was supposed to do it got burned. And now I'm here and I'm supposed to do it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I didn't even want. I wasn't supposed to be.

[James Petregallo]

He's clerks ing it. Totally. I'm not even supposed to be here today. It's ridiculous. Somebody put gum in the locks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Bunch of savages out there. So in bits and pieces, he tells a story about the contract. He tells Hope that her husband had been involved with a man in the, quote, organization who had loaned him $42,000. Wow. Walker calls this family money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know if that means, like, Mafia or if that means, like, his fam. I'm not sure. So her and her husband had taken out a very large insurance policy out on her so that when Hope was dead, he'll collect on the policy and he could repay this money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

So Hope thought that Walker said the policy was for $200,000 and that he was being paid $3,600 to carry out this contract, which is a pretty cheap merger.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, it is the 70s, inflation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And all, but $3,600?

[James Petregallo]

36.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that is a whole.

[James Petregallo]

I bet that'd be 30 grand today. Probably 25 grand or something. That could be good. Not that much because 73. By 73, some inflation had come in. It wasn't quite the same. It was mid-70s raw inflation, but maybe, you know what? 73. I'm not sure. Dude, that's a close one. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He related that he had met her husband at the Beverly Hilton and that her husband had given explicit details. He wanted a bloodbath, he said. A Sharon Tate kind of massacre.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

With butchered bodies and blood splashed all over the room because it would be good publicity for his business. Does he do, like, crime scene cleanup or what here? What does he sound like?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Carpet. What does he do?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's selling the best vacuum you're ever gonna find, Jimmy. It takes anything out of the carpet. It's amazing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And if it doesn't, we give you free flooring.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Jesus. They come to your house, they don't dump, like, mud on your floor with some coffee. They butcher a woman and then clean it all up. You're not impressed. They're still going to prison. So that's what they want with butchered bodies, blood splashed all over the room. Good publicity. So do hitmen need publicity, or can you just say?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, you could just say, did you see the news last week? That was me.

[James Petregallo]

Then he says, did you ever have anal sex with your husband?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

She said, no. And he said, well, did you talk about it much? And she said, no. Why in God's name are you asking me that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

And he said, well, because he said to take a piece of wood from the Tinder box and, quote, stick it up you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. He said, but I never liked that plan. I like a nice, clean killing. Your husband told me that you take a great deal of medication, and I'd rather have taken you to a party and exchanged your pills for something else. Or I could have made it look like a stroke or a heart attack with a needle in your eye or an ice pick in your ear. You know how you do.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He wanted me to rape you with a piece of log in the ass.

[James Petregallo]

Yes, Anally rape you with a piece of log. He said, when I was in the kitchen after dinner, I laid out two ice picks I could have used at a party or in a crowd. You can stick someone in the ribs and then get away easily because it takes a person a minute or two to slump over. And then because the wound is so small, nobody notices it and assumes the person's having a heart attack. So Hope's like, what the fuck? She can't believe either of her husbands would do this. She said, well, where did you meet my husband? And he said, at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. And she said, well, did he just say I want a bloodbath? A Sharon Tate kind of thing? And in 73, that was still the biggest story in the world. And he said, oh, no. He discussed in detail what he wanted done. And she said, my God, how long did this conversation last? And he said, about 20 minutes. He gave me a lot of details because he said that. He said to have you die in a spectacular way that would make the papers and the publicity would be valuable for his business because it would be the husband, the wife of this guy, and his name would be all over the papers, which I've never thought of that as a way to promote the podcast.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And he's got kids.

[James Petregallo]

Start murdering people. We should just start murdering people. That'd be the biggest story in the world. And podcast hosts murder people. Of course the podcast would be over. It's terrible publicity, but it'll be number.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One for a minute.

[James Petregallo]

For a minute. Yeah. The worst idea ever, basically, for publicity. This guy had, I'll kill my wife and then I'll get. Just hire a PR company. It's cheaper probably, too. So they said that the story started to make sense to Hope because she remembered her surprise when Tom, her ex husband, had said he was going to meet someone at the Beverly Hills Hilton. She knew he hated the Hilton, and she remembered asking him, why the Hilton? She said, you know, it takes forever to park there. And she also said she remembers her husband's obsession with the Sharon Tate murders, which everyone in LA was obsessed with that. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who isn't?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She had seen Tom reading a book, and Tom almost never read books about the killings. She could not accept it. Everybody on earth read helter skelter in 1972, everybody. So she managed to ask, well, how did he look? And he said, I didn't like the way he looked. I didn't like him at all. He's greasy. She thought, that's weird. Tom doesn't have a greasy look. He's real neat and well groomed. But he had. She said he washed his face five times a day. And in the morning his face would be shiny because his skin was so oily. She thought, oh, my God, it must be tomorrow, because maybe he just didn't wash his face and he got all oily. She said, oh, my God. And it must be him, because if he didn't meet Tom, how would he know that Tom has oily skin? Yeah, how would he know that Tom was interested in the Tate murders? But if it is Tom, he must have lost his mind. And the children need to be protected, especially the youngest. So she said, the children. I have to get back to the children. The baby needs me. And he said, oh, Tom will have the baby on Sunday, okay? She said, no, no. Tom's never had the baby on Sunday, no matter how many times I've asked him. I've been sick. I've had 100,000 problems. He's never taken the baby on a Sunday. And Walker said, I don't care. He'll take the baby this Sunday, okay? So she thought about her young child. She thought about all of this shit. She said, oh, my God, he'll never know. He'll never remember me. If I die now, my baby will never remember me. This is crazy. So he began yelling at her, stop it. Shut up. Stop it. He's kneeling on the bed, shaking her and saying, I can't stand it when a woman cries. I get all emotional.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's awful.

[James Petregallo]

I can't watch this. This is hard on me. Don't you understand? Deciding whether. So sad. Yeah. Deciding whether to kill you or not. So then she said. She burrowed her face into a pillow, and he calmed down. He moved away from the bed and started talking in a normal tone. And he said, quote, bill was too dull for you anyway. You need someone more exciting.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And she said, he was not too dull. He was one of the most. He had one of the most fantastic minds in the world. Just because he's quiet, you think he's dull, but you don't know what he's doing when he's quiet. He could be composing a song or he could be thinking of some fabulous thing that he's going to shoot on film. He has very creative ideas, and he just doesn't talk about them. And besides that, Bill's a very good person, and he loves the children and I depend on him for everything. And then he cuts her off and he says, I don't want to hear any more about Bill.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck Bill.

[James Petregallo]

I said, he was boring. Who cares? We're moving on. So she tried to lighten the tone. She said. She said, and you're wrong. I don't need someone more exciting. I've had someone more exciting thinking of her first husband or another guy. And she said, and I can't take it. It wears me out. That was the real exciting guy. So then he said, quote, but you were flexing your pelvis at me all day. What I've heard, shaking your ass, popping your tits, flexing my pelvis. I've heard this a million different ways of a guy saying a chick is trying to get his attention. I've never heard flexing your pelvis in my life.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He played a hound dog all day. I know what you were doing.

[James Petregallo]

She said, what in God's name do you mean, flexing my pelvis? Because she never heard it either. I'm glad that this is not just me that never heard this. So he tried to describe what he meant, but in the dark she couldn't see his gestures. So this has turned into a ridiculous game of charades here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're pop, locking your pussy at me.

[James Petregallo]

I've been watching you. You know how it works. She said, do you mean the way I move around a lot when I'm sitting? I'm always readjusting my position. And he said, yes. She said, oh, my God, that's my back. I have to move around to make my back more comfortable. And he said, I didn't know that's what it was. And she thought he actually sounded sorry about his mistake, but she said, oh, this is good. Now I got a little advantage. She said, look, I don't mind the idea of dying so much. I think there's something going on after we die. So I'm not really afraid to die. In fact, sometimes I've wanted to die. But if Bill is dead, then all my hopes for the future are pretty much dead, too. And I don't care very much. But the thing is, my children really have nobody else, and they'd be separated because my mother couldn't cope with all three. And being separated will destroy them all, right? So then he says, well, I'm sorry. I don't know. I know what you're saying about your children is true. And every time I go to kill you, I think about you picking that kid in the market. Picking up that kid in the market. And it Bothers me. But I've got to kill you because you have to understand that in a contract killing there's no such thing as a witness left alive. I'm really sorry that I took this contract and I really don't want to kill you. You have cute feet, huh? What the fuck? What? I don't want to kill you. You have cute feet. What kind of non sexual weights? Look at these, look at these feet.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Little seven and a half, who cares?

[James Petregallo]

What the fuck are you talking about? So he's in defeat too. What is going on with this guy?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good lord.

[James Petregallo]

So Hope had determined here that her fear and anger enraged him and made him violent. And she needed to be calm. So she said, well, before you kill me, can the condemned person have a last cigarette? And he said, no, it's bad for you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How dare you.

[James Petregallo]

She said, you're worried about my health? And he said, gee, I guess I am. I just don't know what to do. He said finally, I really don't know what to do. I don't know if I can trust you. If I leave you alive, you might become vindictive later. And she said, you can trust me and I would not become vindictive. It's against my religion to become vindictive. And he said, well, I just don't know. I don't know if I can trust you. She said, look, if hating you would bring Bill back, then I would hate you like I've never hated anyone before. But I can't bring Bill back, so there's no point in me hating you and being vindictive. So she sensed him starting to lighten up a bit. So she talked nonstop to him, tried to get him to talk about himself. He told her that when he was 19 he had killed someone and got off to Europe, but that the organization had held it over his head afterward and forced him to do more jobs for them. And he was getting a little weary of killing people and was finding it hard to keep his motivation up. He said, I want to get out of the killing business. I can't keep doing this forever. I'm getting pretty old and all it takes is someone just a little bit younger, a little bit faster, you know, it's like playing cornerback in the NFL. It's very similar, except a little different.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's Tony Soprano from the Mexican. He's just one more, just one more job. I'm going to retire.

[James Petregallo]

That's a lot. I got to get out of here. I'm getting too old for this shit. Still, he said he Liked the sexual aspect of killing. He said, having a gun go off is like coming 10 times.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it?

[James Petregallo]

So then she talked more about killing and she said, look, I don't believe anyone should ever kill anyone else. So you and I are definitely at odds on that. But as for the fact that you kill outside the law or outside what is socially acceptable while other people kill because it's socially acceptable, huh? Okay. To me, that doesn't make one bit of difference. I don't think you should kill someone because they live in another country or because they have a different kind of skin. I don't think you should kill someone because they're afraid and they're running. I don't think you should kill for a lot of the reasons that people are killing each other every day. If you were killing socially correctly, you could be a hero. But you're just killing socially incorrectly, which to me makes you no worse than the other person. You're no worse than some soldier who shoots a woman. You're no worse than a cop who shoots a kid in the back. In fact, you're probably better. You're probably better than Lieutenant Cali, which I think was a cop in the paper at the time. The really evil people are the people who know me and yet sent you to kill me. Which I agree with that too. If you're a cop and you kill someone that I don't think you should have killed, I'm more pissed off because you were trusted, given a gun. And I'm paying your fucking salary. I'm paying for that at least. If this guy's killing people, I don't, I don't have to pay for it. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to pay for it when they put him on fucking paid leave after he murders people. That's bullshit. So I agree with her there. So she said, and I have no particular hatred for you. I have no desire to attack you or get revenge on you or anything like that. I'm opposed to you. But I'm also opposed to half the men in America who've gone out and killed someone for no reason. Wow. In 1973, half the men in America killed someone for no reason. It's a lot more than I would have thought. Half, wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Half the country were cold blooded killing sons of bitches.

[James Petregallo]

Murder rate must have been off the charts. She said, I'm even opposed to the people who shoot animals. And now if you have to kill me, I understand your position and I'm asking you to please understand my Position, too, and let me do something to see that my children are taken care of, then you can shoot me. But first let me call my mother.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

He said, you can't call your mother. And she said, you can hold a gun to my head the whole time I'm talking, and when I've made sure that my mother will get the children and keep them safe, then you can shoot me.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

He said, no. She said, well, then just let me make out a will asking that my children be kept together as a group and go to live with my family. I know. Rather than being separated, that would be better. Then you can shoot me. And he said, how would your family get the will? And she said, you could mail it for me. Okay, this is getting insane now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I got stamps in the drawer.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Do I have to my own postage? What are we talking about here? She said, I will trust you to mail the will if you will trust me to let me get up and write it. And he didn't say anything back. So she said, or I could just write a note about the children. And in the note, I will say I'm responsible for killing Bill. And then you don't even have to shoot me. I'll shoot myself with your gun. Oh. So here's how it works. You give me your gun, and then everything will be fine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hand that over. Let me finish the job for you.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So he says, hope you couldn't handle this gun. Why would you even. Why? You wouldn't even be able to keep it in your hand. It would knock you over. It would blow you halfway across the room. No, that wouldn't work. It's fucking crazy. Then at one point he said, if you ever want to know more about me, read the Day of the Jackal. I'm the Jackal. I'm the Jackal.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He says, if you want to know more about me, go to the library.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If I don't shoot you. If I do, then never mind. He then was talking about code of ethics, about killing a mother with young children and especially when they have very little money. He said, he's got to think about it. At one point, he laid the gun down and laid on top of her, put his head on his shoulder and fell asleep.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sleep, really.

[James Petregallo]

Hope says she blacked out at that point from momentary relief and shock combined. She was unconscious, which I don't know if that doesn't sound like a thing that happens. But she laid in the darkness and she was bound. And she was wondering if any of this was real. She said later on about the cold. Evil brings a feeling of intense cold. In the icy blackness of the room, I felt. Felt I was in the presence of true evil. Sunday, February 26 and Monday, February 25 and Monday, February 26 now. So the next morning, Walker tries to kiss her. And she stopped him. She said she needed to brush her teeth first.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I got morning breath. You don't want this.

[James Petregallo]

Walker alternates between being threatening and having a good time over the course of the day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

When Hope refused to walk through the living room because of Bill's body, he dragged the corpse into the back bedroom, out of sight, so she could feel more comfortable out there. He said he wanted to cook her breakfast. I make a great Denver omelette. You don't understand. You got any peppers? What are we talking about?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Look, I'm Jimmy Dean. I didn't want to tell you.

[James Petregallo]

I didn't want to tell you, but that's my real identity. He talked about buying her a white lace dress that Bill had planned to get for her. He took pictures of her up on the mountainside like they were doing a photo shoot. He put her in the front seat of his Lincoln Continental and drove her back to Beverly Hills, all while saying her children are still in danger from the organization. Police must not be contacted until he's had time to, quote, fix it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fix it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So she tried to stay cheerful. At one point, he complained of a backache. She gave him a back rub. Oh, for the two days, they just hung out as like, a couple, basically.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Back rub.

[James Petregallo]

He played with her children.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Just brought him home with her. Cooked their meals. He drove the kids to school in the morning. Jimmy, what is going on? And she just stayed at the house and was cool with that. Didn't call the cops, didn't say, surround this car as soon as it leaves the schoolyard with the SWAT team. Because he just kidnapped my kids and dropped them off. None of that shit. He washed dishes at the house. He's doing chores, Jimmy. Not just cooking. He's doing chores. He tucked the kids into bed. He read them stories.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the hell's happening?

[James Petregallo]

And she's. What the fuck? They sat that night and made a fire and listened to music and drank wine by the fire. After a family day and a family dinner and him tucking them into bed. This is insanity. He then told her, I would like to sit here by the fire with you forever. I would be your protector and take care of you and the children forever. Put the kids to bed and sit by the fire with you. And then he Said, can you ever forgive me? And she said, yes, I forgive you. I do forgive you. And then he talked about getting out of the killing business and becoming an attorney. He said, if I did that for five years, let's say I got out of the killing business and I became an attorney and stayed out of trouble. If I did that for five years, will you marry me?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's my five year plan.

[James Petregallo]

She said, well, I think it would be fine if you became a lawyer, but honestly, I don't know how I'd feel in five years. I can't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know how I'd feel in five. Who knows what goes on in five years? I could be a lesbian by then. Who knows? I could just. Who knows? Anything could happen. I'm just. Doesn't matter. I could be into anything by then. Tuesday, February 27, 1973. Okay. Tuesday afternoon, Hope convinces him that she had to do something. They had to do something. They said, Bill's body's still at the ranch. Someone's gonna find it. Yeah. Can't just leave it there. So he said, all right, we should go to your mother's house nearby. But he said, stick to the story or I'll kill everybody. So her mom, honey was like, well, you look like shit. You're hollow eyed, unwashed, disheveled. What's going on? So she was trying to make up a cover story. This is her cover story. An intruder killed Bill. Oh, then this guy here that I'm with, he arrived Sunday, found the body, moved it and rescued me.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thank God. No, probably rescued you.

[James Petregallo]

He. She said, they're all in horrible danger from a contract killing ordered by Tom, my ex husband. There are snipers on the rooftops and there's probably a bomb under your house.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Imagine your daughter comes in looking like she's been doing drugs for three days, which she hasn't. But looking like that and telling you this shit, There's a bomb, Some strange guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You'd be like, I'm calling an ambulance. You're out of your mind.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So this is how charming fucking Walker is. Somehow, even after this story, he charms the shit out of the parents. Oh, mom and stepdad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. They said that his story didn't make sense. Why hadn't they called the police? But he's a well spoken guy. He knows what he's talking about. He had an answer for everything. He said, I'm not an American national, not a citizen. He said he tampered with the evidence. Too. And he said that could cause him trouble with his passport. He doesn't want to get kicked out of the country. Hope's stepfather heard the story and reached for the phone immediately. And he said, I'm 63 years old. I've never broken the law in my life, and I'm not starting now. I'm calling the cops. So Hope slammed the phone down and said, you're not just risking your own life, you're condemning my children.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

So Walker stood up and smiled and said, I'll call the police, but not from here. This phone is tapped. The organization, obviously. I'll use a phone at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And then he walked out. Now she is now alone with her mother and stepfather in the house, and he is outside.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's gone.

[James Petregallo]

Lock the door. It's over. Okay, Call the cops. Lock the door. Shit's over. Anyway, Hope scrawls out a will, and her stepfather brought out guns he kept in the house because they said there's an organization in snipers and bombs. So now the cops end up showing up. At first, they don't believe her stepfather's claim that there was a body at the ranch, which is interesting here, by the way. I think her original last name was Elise, and her stepfather's name is Niven. That's what I'm thinking. Thinking that's how it works here. So they said, there's a body at the ranch, which he partly owns. And Mrs. Masters said at the time, her mom, there's been a murder, murder, murder. And they said, we're all in danger. Send someone here. So they were like, yeah, right, and hung up. And they called back, there's a fucking murder. What are we doing? Yeah, there is a corpse in the garden. You know what I'm saying? Funny farm style. So two plainclothes police officers arrived, and she says that she was standing in front of her parents with a gun. Now she's got a gun, too, because she thought she was the intended victim. And the officers might actually be murderers sent to kill her. Oh, that's what she said. So Hope tells them the story. Unknown intruder, contract killing, rescued by this Taylor guy. Sure. By 10:30pm Porterville Police find Bill Ashlock's body at the ranch following that call. It's wrapped in a bedspread in the back bedroom, shot in the head and dead for days. At the same moment, at 10:30pm Pretty much, a man is renting a white Chevy Impala at the Avis desk at the Los Angeles airport, paid with a credit card and signed the slip, william T. Ashlock, the dead man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, really?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. He paid with his credit card. With Ashlock's credit card. Now Hope is arrested. At this point, they don't believe any of this shit. Okay, so Hope is arrested on suspicion of homicide here. I guess everybody's involved. And now the Illinois State Police get involved too. Remember Detective Swalwell, who wanted to know about him? He's back involved. He had been tracking him as a fugitive, trying to find him. Hope is gonna end up being released on $50,000 bail. After two days in jail, she goes back to her mother's house to do that. The phone's ringing. She's getting sympathy cards and all that kind of shit and anything. There's big headlines. The socialite and the killing. And in the paper, she is not cast as a victim. She is cast as someone who's probably involved in this. Oh, that's what they're saying.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, skeptical.

[James Petregallo]

The story makes no goddamn sense whatsoever. Yeah, so nobody, she said, nobody understands what I'm going through. She said, you know, because it's only the COVID story she told. Someone broke in, we moved the body, and then we called you guys because there's the organization. She didn't tell them the story that we've talked about before. Then there's some tapes that pop up. Mysterious tape recordings, according to the newspaper here, have given an account of rape and murder linked with the pending murder of trial of Beverly Hills socialite Hope Niven Masters. So sources close to the investigation say that apparently there's a voice on the tape and the recordings are found in her mailbox in Los Angeles. In Honey's mailbox. Hope's mom victims. Now, the voice repeatedly gives a detailed account of the events leading to Bill Ashlock's death there. The recordings relate finding Mrs. Masters nude and bound at the ranch and said she blurted out the fact that she had been raped, that someone had been hired to kill her and her children. The recording voice identified itself as non American, an illegal alien in the United States. He said he had joined Ashlock and Hoag in Springville in the pretext of interviewing Ashlock for a story about him being a bachelor. The tape recording, they paralleled what she said earlier. Sources close to this also said that they were aware of the recordings. And the sheriff said, in my opinion, the recordings don't absolve anybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

They could be made by anybody. The Los Angeles reports quoted the recording voice as saying, I heard screams. I dashed into the living room. Ashlock was on the sofa half on the sofa, half on the coffee table. The sofa had large amounts of blood splashed all over. The scene, they said took place after the mystery man had left the ranch for the evening and returned the following morning. On his return, he found. That's when he found Hope. Naked, hair, disheveled, hands and ankles tied with tail tape. She told the man reporting the incident on the tape that her unknown assailant had been hired but hadn't killed her because he normally didn't take assignments to kill women. So this is the tape that they're getting here. They said the first tape arrived by messenger. It's addressed to Hope. Her stepfather called the attorneys they hired, Tom Breslin and Ned Nelson, and a private detective, Jean Tinch. That's almost Tench. Yeah. Everyone gathered to listen. She said, I do not want any member of or. They said, I do not want any of your family listening in. I don't want any of your lawyers to listen in. I will stick by you to the bitter end, and I'll get you out of this mess. I won't leave the country. I will not leave the area until I know all the charges against you have been dropped. That's what's said on the tape. The one addressed to her said, I kept track of the kids. I know they're staying home. Home from school. I'm not far away. I'm going to stay close. I'll see you out of this one. Mixer. Mr. Fix. It will get you through. And I found a stunning white dress, size three. So the tape continued here with this version of the events, saying that, you know, I will answer questions, but only outside of the United States. He also claimed a man recently found dead in a Sunset Strip motel was the killer originally hired for the Hope Masters job, but eliminated because he'd taken the money but never carried out the hit. The tape ends romantically. I'd love to come home to you. Give the kids a kiss. Very weird here. They said that the attorney described the voice as clearly evil, a caressing voice, romantically nostalgic, brilliantly exploiting Hope's deepest needs, especially her need for a strong man to solve her problem. That's what her lawyer says. Sure. The investigators suspected immediately that Taylor Wright is not this hero that she's talking about. They didn't believe that Hope shot Bill, and they didn't believe her story of a stranger coming in. Then this guy showing up, and they couldn't understand if this guy did kill her, did kill her husband, and why would she be protecting him, and why would she be Protecting him. The detective said, she's away from him. She's free from him. Why continue to take the rap for him?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's the deal?

[James Petregallo]

So the morning after the tapes, an FBI agent produced a photograph of a mug shot of a long haired man with a glint in his eye. And mom said, yes, that's the guy, because that's Taylor from the day before, or Walker. And her stepdad said, yes, that's the guy. Now Hope stares at the picture. And she's looking and the FBI agent's talking. Hope closed her eyes and she could hear. I can't leave you, she said. In her mind, she could hear Walker saying, I can't leave you alive. You could identify you. And her saying, I don't know if I can trust you. You can trust me. And she said, yes, that's him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

That same morning, Detective Swalwell back in Illinois was reading Walker's latest letter to his attorney. Remember, he sends his attorney letters. He's got time to do all this. And they said, the letter said, I'm enclosing a picture of Hopi. Her name is Hope, but it's called. Is called Hopi. I took a picture in Hopi's garden in la. And then Walker wrote that Hope elected to go to jail to give me enough time to get away.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So then there's the phone calls. The FBI gave Hope instructions. You're the only means we have of catching this guy. It's important that you keep him on the phone. If he calls, you gotta keep him around. So the phone rang and she answered and said, how are you? And he said he knew she was doing badly, but he would stick around and see her out of this mess. She said she was scared and everything's horrible and that police thought she was some sort of sex freak. And he said, that's a bummer. And she doesn't even kiss until she brushes her teeth. And then he laughed and he said, I gotta go. I'll call you later. So he said, take care of yourself. Give me a kiss. Love you. In the last call, he asked Hope, have they shown you any pictures? She tried to change the subject, but he cut in, have they shown you any pictures? And he said, no. She said, no. He said, then they don't realize you don't know who I am. And she blurted out, listen, take care of yourself. I don't want you to get killed on account of me. I don't want anybody to get killed on account of me. And she said, and he said, that's Neither here nor there. I must enjoy what I'm doing. You know, you take for so many years and all of a sudden it's your turn to give. Sunday, March 11, 1973, 10:25am Howard Johnson's motel in North Hollywood. Yeah, if you don't know anything about California, North Hollywood is nothing to do with Hollywood. No, other than being north of there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't see a single person.

[James Petregallo]

No, that shit's the Valley, man. That shit is bad. Just crap. No, it's not. There's nothing glamorous about it is what I'm saying. This is just houses. So they end up surrounding Walker here. So Daniel Walker is surrounded. He had a gun on him too. He's disarmed and he's arrested. He's registered under the name Taylor Wright. Guess who else else is there? Detective Swalwell is there from fucking. From Illinois. He came in as 16 armed officers had conducted an all night stakeout waiting for him to come out. Wow. So they disarm him. FBI is there, he offered no resistance and he carries a.38 caliber pistol. He was using Bill's credit cards. His car was rented with Bill's BankAmericard. There's 11 pages of inventory from his car alone, including surgical gloves, other men's clothing, credit cards, Bill's W2 form and multiple sense of keys. Wow, this is crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

His whole identity.

[James Petregallo]

His whole identity, yeah. So Hope assumed that this capture would clear her of everything, but it doesn't at all. Because they think she's full of shit. Right. So in jail. This is wild. While he's in jail awaiting murder charges, there's an article in the Birmingham News that says G. Daniel Walker, who communicates with Warden Toomey mainly through the courts, says the prison years are dead years. Men are frozen in immaturity by being deprived of fundamental liberties. Our lives are dominated by petty rules which have no valid security purpose, but are great tools of harassment. My aim is to drag corrections, scratching, screaming and kicking into the 20th century. He's a reformer now. Never mind murder. Murder? That's insane. Then here comes more charges from different crimes. Uh, oh yeah. The newspaper article says a smooth talking escaped convict with a Jekyll and Hyde personality who is now being held for murder in California, has been linked to the beating of the robbery of the jewelry salesman. Yeah, so they link him to that as well. His movements have been traced by various police agencies to Denver, Colorado and later to Los Angeles, California. April 18, 1973. Hope and Daniel are both charged with first degree murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Shit, Hope, too.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. So the newspapers are going crazy with this. This is rape, murder, Mafia contracts, and, you know, distinguished bachelors and all this shit. It's a lot. So this is everything a reporter could ask for in a murder story. They've been waiting for this since Sharon Tate died, essentially. Yeah. And they're like, let's get those Watergate hearings going so we have something else to write about. So her attorney told the court that her slender blonde client, a former model, had been raped and threatened after her boyfriend was murdered. One story told during the preliminary hearing in Porterville held that an intruder entered the ranch house. And that's the story that they told. That's her story here. He told her he was a contract man paid by her ex husband. So her lawyer recounted preliminary hearing testimony that she'd stood by her story until one day when she told another version she said could mean her life. Her second version of the story. Not a man came in. Whatever was that Walker had been the killer all along and that he threatened her into silence. And her lawyer said she was absolutely, literally terrified. Okay. Walker is acting as his own co counsel.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Attaboy.

[James Petregallo]

He's questioning everybody. They said he spoke in legal terms as his handcuffs clinked on his wrists. Jesus Christ. Walker contradicted the lawyer's accounts of the preliminary testimony. He noted that a witness in Porterville testified she saw Hope massaging his bare back days after the murder. This was at a time when she was allegedly living in fear of him. Walker argued that the people have failed to show in 10 volumes of preliminary hearings that William T. Ashlock is actually dead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

He also argued there's no proof Ashlock was killed in Tulare County. So there's a jurisdictional issue as well. Okay. Now he's also running up bills in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jail on a credit card.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He ran up a $500 bill for telegrams at the county jail.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Lord.

[James Petregallo]

A spokesman for the sheriff's office said that he sent nearly 100 telegrams by calling Western Union from the jail telephone. The matter came to light when the sheriff's office began receiving correspondence from police agencies around the country addressed to Walkers. Uh, oh, in one case, a letter was addressed to Sheriff G. Daniel Walker, Tulare County. If he wasn't a piece of shit, he's entertaining. So Hope is out on bail and he's having fun in county jail, which is crazy. Yeah, he's having a lark. He's granted the right to be his own co counsel. He's given two cells, one to live in and one for workspace complete with a picnic table. The women trustees made him a quilt. They said he's immaculately dressed, gesturing with his pipe as he presented a 52 page motion to suppress all evidence against him in court. His legal argument, they said, was actually pretty brilliant for a guy who's not even a lawyer. The letter to his attorney in Chicago, which police had used to link him to the Ashlock galley, had been illegally intercepted. You can't use it. Therefore, everything that followed that, his identification, his arrest, the seizure of the evidence, his indictment was all called by the judge. Fruit of the poisoned tree.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's all garbage. None of it's good.

[James Petregallo]

Legal observers were, according to this article, quote, dazzled by his courtroom performance. Some were baffled. How could a search of a hotel room rented on a stolen credit card be unlawful? Awful. But the court was impressed. Motion was granted. All evidence suppressed. They end up having to drop the charge. A judge dismisses the charges on him and they have to do it again. They have to recharge him. Yes. It's fucking insanity, man. They have to recharge him and retry to get all this shit. Also hope there's some things about her story that don't line up also that they're saying they're talking about. One of her former boyfriends was called to testify about a conflict in dates regarding Walker's presence at the Springville ranch. So there's dates, there's jurisdiction. He is muddy in these fucking walls like crazy. And he's like, you don't even know if that's him. That's Bill Ashland. They said the alleged murder victim in Springville appeared today to be legally questionable in court. He's not. He said it might not be him. And the court's like, interesting. The district attorney said, I'm not completely convinced of that. They're saying that identification must be established is what he says. The district attorney says, I don't think so. Basically, he said there need only be a murder victim, not necessarily even identified. We know there's a dead person. Who cares who it is? Basically, we killed someone. He killed someone. They said though, they will refile the charges and all of that. So after everything's dismissed, you know, they're pissed off here. Refiled. But now the prosecution's case is they have no physical evidence now. Everything's been suppressed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

The case comes down to Hope Masters and she's the co defendant. So she can't be compelled to testify. Can't force her to testify. She's on trial for murder. So the prosecution could either make a choice. They could either let Walker work, go, drop the charges, or make a deal with Hope. Okay, what do you think? One of the two. So the prosecutor said, we can't just dismiss. How about guilty to a lesser charge, like not calling the police on Hope? They said, what if we just do that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let her plead.

[James Petregallo]

Her lawyer said, nope, dismissal or we go to trial.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So the judge stepped in and said, as I see it, the thing that will convict Hope Masters is your proof that she knew Mr. Walker before he came to the Rank Ranch. Do you have any evidence of that? And they said, no, we don't.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And the judge said, well, then I don't think you'll get a conviction against her and I think you're better off getting her cooperation. So they dismiss her case and she is the star witness now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Which, I mean, based on everything, if they had evidence of them having a previous relationship, that would be one thing, but they don't. Yeah, and what she did could be some weird Stockholm syndrome. I mean, Patty Hearst robbed a fucking bank. You know what I'm saying?

[Jimmy Wissman]

The bummer though is going to be that that's going to be common knowledge and she's not going to be able to during her testimony. The lawyers are going to bring up that she is getting a deal.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, definitely. Are you getting no charges. But I mean, she can say pure victim. She could. I mean, the likelihood is that she's a victim, pure victim here. But everything didn't look quite right. And our limited knowledge of psychology back then also didn't help. So the trial comes up for Walker. It's an eight man, four woman jury. Trial lasts almost two months, which is a crazy amount of time for non OJ trials. Walker acts as his own attorney, of course, 98 witnesses are called. Holy Tom Masters is called. He denied ever knowing Walker or having anything to do with any plot against Hope. The real Taylor Wright is called, who was beaten and robbed in Ann Arbor, and says, yeah, that guy beat and robbed me and stole my fucking name. They get Hope's 13 year old son, Keith, whose testimony, quote, wrung the hearts of the women in the jury. He made people sob. Yeah, 13 and said, Jesus Christ, that kid is in his 60s now, by the way. He's in his late 60s. We're going to talk about it. Walker decides to testify. Oh, now there's some drama during the trial here, obviously. A newspaper says there's enough drama in the Tulare county courthouse these days to open it up at night and charge Admission.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petregallo]

Being given top billing, of course, is the G. Daniel Walker murder trial. It remains to be seen how long this intriguing mission impossible story will continue to draw daily spectators. He acts as his own attorney. Defendant Walker. That is how he refers to himself, which is hilarious. He moves freely about the courtroom, questioning witnesses. They said the only indication that he was not a real lawyer was the clinking of his leg irons, which were not clearly visible from the audience section.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's good.

[James Petregallo]

They said a newcomer coming in not knowing anything, might have thought it was loose change in his pocket, even it was that kind of thing. They hired a new prosecutor since one was sick and had to bow out of the case. And he's assumed a more subdued role, they said now the public defender is doing most of the talking, frequently arguing fine legal points and attempting to impeach witnesses. They bring in the tapes that are his voice, by the way. All the tapes going to her. That looks terrible. And he said, well, that's proof I'm innocent.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And the prosecution thinks the whole tape is a fairytale made up by him. So that's ridiculous. The private investigator, Gene Tinch, who said he interviewed Walker in a Hollywood jail, testified that the voice on the tape is Walker's. Yeah, duh. I mean, what the fuck are we talking about here? So now hope testifies, and they said, were you and Bill ashlock just plain friends or what? And she said, well, we thought of ourselves as married. We weren't married legally, but we were going to be married soon, as soon as my hearing came up. And they talk about they were in love. They talk about the whole day. And we don't have to go over the rape and all that kind of shit again. But she basically gives her whole story that she gave earlier of what the fuck happened. She said at one point, I don't know. But I know that I did know it was Taylor because I said to him, please go see if Bill is really dead. So I sort of had the feeling that someone I knew was there. I felt very confused. And they said, at this time, did you recognize the person? And she said, I knew it was Taylor. So there's that talks about someone wants you dead, talks about rape, talks about all this type of shit here, which is a lot. Imagine that in court. I mean, that's a big story to tell in court. So she said, I gave the reasons why I should be left alive, why I was good, why I was useful, why it wouldn't be good to kill me. I promised I'd never testify against him and swore in the lives of my children that I would never testify against him. Imagine if his lawyer was like, so you're a liar. That. Is that what you're telling us? That would be awful. So he actually, he's going to question her, by the way, which is wild. Oh, yeah. So that's interesting. Basically they talk about all of this shit and they say that Walker, she testified, told her about the organization. And she said, I was frightened of the organization. And Walker had told her, there's no such thing as a half filled contract, so I'm gonna have to do this and I have to kill your kids and all that kind of shit. So she referred to him as the defendant, you, the visitor, and the intruder all at once. He referred to himself only as defendant. Walker never identified Walker as the intruder. She was asked the details of the rape attack and she referred to him as the person. I'm not sure who was there. And then repeated, I'm not sure who it was. She didn't see Walker kill anyone. She said also, okay, now cross examination with him as her own, his own, right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She showed up into the room and she shook him and he was covered in blood. She didn't see him kill anyone.

[James Petregallo]

And they said, did you see defendant Walker kill anyone? She said, no. And he said, well, mic drop on that. Fuck you. A defense doctor comes in here, a physician testified in the murder trial saying that he saw no signs that Hope had been raped or beaten, but that she was somewhat emotionally disturbed at the time he examined her. Well, we would know past the rape would be at least three days have gone by, right? This is a woman who's had three kids. How much fucking damage do you want done in there in three days? You know what I mean? I'm not saying she's fucking walking around picking up manhole covers with her crotch or anything, but, you know, a woman with three kids, you're not going to rip her vagina apart fucking three days later. For the most part, I'm sure it happens, but it's less likely, I would say, the more days that go by here. So. That doesn't make any sense. That's just horrible. This guy's an asshole. I think, honestly, that doctor. Anyway, so the doctor, Dr. Wong, said he detected marks on Mrs. Masters left, left forearm that were possibly from adhesive tape. But he could not, four days after the incident, confirm whether the woman had been sexually assaulted. So she was bound. They said there was adhesive. So if she was lying, why would he have bound her? Right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why'd he tape her?

[James Petregallo]

There'd be no reason to tape her at that point, so you gotta believe her. Another witness, a policewoman, said she was called to the Beverly Hills police station sometime in February to search her, and she found no evidence of marks or bruises when she came into the police department, which, again, was days later. Two other witnesses who knew the caretaker of the ranch and who were fishing in the pond there on February 24, testified they saw a man and woman through a window at the ranch and a third party, a bearded man leading a horse elsewhere on the ranch. Ranch. One of them said he couldn't recognize the couple through the window. The other fisherman identified the couple as Walker and Hope. Oh, who Testif. Yeah, they said that, that, that, all of that. So the judge criticized the defense for taking too long with too many irrelevant questions, which, when someone is not a lawyer, they do that constantly. If you watch the fucking. Oh, God, the Lori Vallow thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus Christ.

[James Petregallo]

Literally every fucking five seconds, they'd be like, nope. Relevance.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So you've never had my chicken enchiladas? Is that what you're telling the jury?

[James Petregallo]

Green chili chicken enchiladas, which her son says are mid. Which is the best thing ever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Have you ever seen me conspire? Ever?

[James Petregallo]

That's what she would ask people. Have you ever seen me. How do you watch someone conspire? Ever see me, like, huddled up with someone, like, looking back of us and all that? But she would ask a bunch of dumb questions about. And they would say, that's not relevant. Stick to the relevant shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Your Honor, he hasn't had the enchiladas. This matters.

[James Petregallo]

This is huge. It's huge.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bombshell.

[James Petregallo]

He bombshell tonight. Now he testifies Walker. Okay, I really want him to sit down, then get up and ask himself a question, then sit down again and go, well, you know, thinking about it, actually, I really want him to do that. So he said the first thing on the stand is that he's known as Daniel and G. Daniel Walker, but that he's used 90 names in the past 23 years. 90. 90. He said he's a former ad executive and met bill in 1965 at an advertising conference.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Bill's been in the game for a while, too. Walker claims he worked on Captain Crunch's campaign and the shindig television advertising accounts. Captain Crunch. God damn it. I love your. He said he had used Ashlock's apartment to hide out because 31 attorneys representing him on various matters had been ordered to produce him before a Cook County, Illinois, grand Jury investigating a matter Walker did not disclose.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Walker gave an account of dating several women and sometimes meeting with Ashlock and Mrs. Masters at numerous Los Angeles restaurants and lounges. He's saying I knew the couple well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Well, why the fuck then? Why the fuck would Bill think that? He was a Los Angeles times reporter that's doing a distinguished bachelor thing, and when he had lunch with him for four hours. Because he knows the guy. He knows. Doesn't make sense. He also said that he wasn't around when Ashlock was murdered. But in an account sprinkled with spicy anecdotes, he said he knew the victim and also Hope long before the killing. He said, I did go to the ranch house, but I left that evening while Bill was still alive and didn't return the next morning. Didn't return until the next morning. When he returned, he said, hope told me Bill was dead. So that was that. He said that Hope uses drugs and even revealed a secret hiding place in the main house on the river valley ranch in springville, where Hope allegedly had stashed hypodermic needles, pills and powder drugs as well. Well, okay, so also, Hope is denied using drugs other than tranquilizers, and a policewoman testified to finding no indication of needle marks on her arms.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So he's gonna slander this woman in court? That's his strategy.

[James Petregallo]

She's actually a huge whore and is in on this with me. And not only that evil, murdering asshole. So he also said that Hope told him after the murder that she heard the voice of her estranged husband, Tom Masters, at the the scene the night of the murder. She's gonna say that's what she told me. I don't know. According to Walker, Hope heard her estranged husband threatened to burn the ranch house down while she was tied up inside and Bill lay dead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

A second intruder, Walker claimed, told Hope that she was being killed for neglecting her children and engaging in extramarital relationships. He disputed testimony by Hope that she didn't know Walker until he arrived at the 24th posing as a news reporter. Walker said he knew them since 1965. She had spent weekends with him in a hotel before, he said. He said he knew her various surnames, including Mortimer, Staglinano, Niven, and Masters. He said we dated on and off. He said he was on the ranch with Ashlock and Mrs. Masters, partly to photograph pictures for an occidental insurance company. Advertising the ad was to picture Hope with a theme of what if she dies first? According to Walker. You always think about. I Gotta take care of my wife. But what if she dies? You get nothing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that's the campaign. Okay.

[James Petregallo]

When he returned to the ranch in Springville the day after the murder, he said he did not believe Hope's story that her fiance was dead until after she swore at him to stop taking photographs because Bill is dead. She then told him of being forced by an unidentified intruder to engage in perverted sex acts and hearing Tom Masters voice in the background at times. So he was organizing it, directing the sex acts, he said. When they entered the ranch house, where Walker said he moved the body to a rear bedroom out of sight, just because she was freaking out. Hope then made sandwiches and she and Walker drove to Los Angeles. That's what he testifies. She told me I was asleep in the. She told me she was asleep in the bedroom. I assumed she meant that I. Night before, when she heard a gunshot, she said she looked from the bedroom into the living room and just saw a dark figure in the doorway with a flashlight. He said that she told him that she was knocked unconscious. Later awoke, heard two men talking, ran into the living room and found ashlock with part of his head missing. According to him, Hope identified one of the male voices as Tom Masters. And Walker said that Hope told him that again about the voice. And he said there was talk about burning the house down and that she was going to be killed for whoring around and neglecting her children. Wow. She told him that eventually she worked free and left the house. Now there's a thing where his attorney, Jay Powell, the public defender, is getting a transfer to cover cost overruns after this super long trial of $28,500, which is a shitload of money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a lot of money. Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They said that this murder trial is a lot. January 11, 1974. Okay, here we go. Verdict comes in and they find Walker guilty of first degree murder. Absolutely guilty. Sentencing comes up and they say, you, whoever the fuck you are, whatever Your name is, one of the 90, you, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison with the possibility of parole. Really? You're gonna think that's awful, but then when we hear the rest of the story, you're gonna be so happy that judge did that. It is so fucking awesome and hilarious what happened. It's great. It's so great. Okay, here we go. He's in prison. And this is when it gets really fun. As if it hasn't been crazy and insane already. This is when it really gets crazy. October 77, Oakland Tribune newspaper. Huge headline, King of the Jailhouse lawyers? Who do you think that is?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it him?

[James Petregallo]

Vacaville G. Daniel Walker could be the busiest man ever put behind bars for murder. He's a jailhouse lawyer whose 6x11 foot cell at the California medical facility here is packed with a color TV to feed, a football fetish, a fancy $900 typewriter, thousands of dollars in law books, and stacks of confidential FBI reports chronicling his lifelong cat and mouse game with the law. This is amazing. Walker spends much of his time writing scripts for television cop and robber shows like Police Story, Rockford Files, Streets of San Francisco and Most Wanted.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But he's writing them as he's writing specs. Like phishing for spec scripts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Just send spec script and you send it off to agents to try to get an agent. Yeah, they'll throw them out if you can't send them to the studios. They throw them right in the garbage. If you send these to agents and hope that an agent is just happened to have a reader feel like looking through a stack of shit that day because they're bored most of the time, you're fucked. So, all right, anyway, the rest of his time he uses to troubleshoot the prison system, quote, unquote, and help troubleshoot it. Like that's his job. And help friends found a weak spot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In the little security around here.

[James Petregallo]

It's a little soft over there. At prisons in California and around the country, this article says Walker has used his legal talent to spring free other inmates, bring about prison reforms and bail prisoners and guards alike out of every kind of legal tangle from divorce to medical malpractice. He said, I make time to work for me. He says, but you know, he said lawyers, by the way, he says he's totally innocent of this murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's in there. Yeah, of course.

[James Petregallo]

He said lawyers on the outside are too busy to handle the case as I do. They take long lunches and after work have two martinis and go home to their wives or mistresses.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm free.

[James Petregallo]

He said, there are no martinis here and there sure aren't any blondes or redheads. So they said the legal razzle dazzle is only part of the G. Daniel Walker story. The rest has all the elements of scripts he writes. Sex, sex, wealth, intrigue, suspense, adventure, even Keystone Cops comedy. Yeah, okay. This is in the Oakland Tribune, word for word, quote. He was a Korean war hero, a hold up man dubbed the Polite Bandit because he gave his loot to charity. A clandestinely recruited CIA operative. What A roguish wheeler dealer with Friends in high places. A felon who literally checked himself out of an Illinois state prison, and an advertising wizard who dreamed up the kitty cereal character, Captain Crunch. He's saying he didn't just do the campaign, he made up Captain fucking Crunch. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who's actually a general or something, based on his uniform.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. They give him. Well, you know, he got knocked down a couple ranks for being insane about cereal. They were like, you can keep the jacket, but you're. You're a lieutenant now. Crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I think it is.

[James Petregallo]

Lieutenant. You can work your way up to captain if you work really hard. Lieutenant Crunch just didn't sound very well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Doesn't sound good.

[James Petregallo]

It doesn't sound great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who's trusting that man with their kid's cereal?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you could have gone Colonel Crunch. That would have worked. That sounds better.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. I'll listen to him.

[James Petregallo]

Sounds almost German. Like, Colonel Clint. Corporal. That's just. You're just barely out of being a private.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's low rank.

[James Petregallo]

But that man at least gotta be in charge of something. I don't know. He's in charge of the Crunch, Jimmy. He's not just.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Corporal's a. That guy's a real. He's not fucking around when it comes to Crunch.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. He don't mess with Corporal Crunch. He takes that shit seriously. An FBI profile describes Walker as a very smooth talking, big spender, fussy about his grooming and food, irresistible to women, violently opposed to drugs, a voracious reader with an IQ of 140. The profile ends this way. That's his FBI profile. He is capable of killing with a smile is how the profile ends. Whoa. The same report, a chief FBI agent who knows Walker, calls him a fine man, a good friend, but has this hang up for doing the unusual. Just for a lark. Yeah. These days, Walker works in the Vacaville Prison law library and clatters away at night on his typewriter, ringing up hefty bills for paper and postage, churning out legal briefs with as many as 1100 pages. Dr. Clannon, a psychiatrist at the prison, said he's a very brilliant guy. He's made himself an expert on the prison system from the inside. And sometimes it's a very good idea to listen to what he says. Depending on which dossier is accurate, the FBI's or the CIA's. Because he's got a dossier for both.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Walker is either 46 or 56 years old.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We don't even know.

[James Petregallo]

We know later, we'll find out. We definitely know later, because I can't Wait for the end of the story. Okay? You gotta hang on to the end because it's amazing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm on the edge of my seat, man.

[James Petregallo]

He begs off, verifying either report, saying with a smile, I prefer to keep the mystery going. And despite his legal exploits, he's no lawyer. He has a law degree from Ohio State University, but never took the bar.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

It was in Ohio, however, that Walker's checkered life of crime began. As he tells it, one night on his way to pick up a date for a country club party, he decided to stick up a liquor store for thrills.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hilarious.

[James Petregallo]

I've never been that bored.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, no. He said, I always got places to be.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck. Somewhere, something to do, right? He said, after there were many robberies in many, many states. The FBI said I was responsible for 78 armed robberies. They called me the Polite Bandit because I gave the money to charities. And he said thrills, that's what attracted me to. He said I came from a well to do family and my whole life was done up on thrills. I guess you could say I was a psychological accident waiting to happen. He said that Walker decided a man of my caliber should be able to make $35,000 a year. And that's when he set out on a course that took him to the biggest advertising firms. And doing well prize accounts landed in his pocket. One of them leading to a brainstorm that produced a swashbuckling, gnomish little figure Walker called. Called Captain Crunch. I'm gonna look that up. I guarantee you, when we're done with this. I guarantee you there's. Because we don't have time now. But there's a way that. To find out who came up with Captain Crunch. Because all these ad campaigns have all these stories. They keep track of all the shit. Really, it's all in paperwork. Yeah, they all. Everything you do in an ad agency, every idea you write is all filed in the client's file.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, yeah, it's got to be because somebody's gonna claim it as their fucking copyright.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, well, it'll be the companies. You. The Advertiser makes that for the company. But it'll have all the shit in there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it John Mills? I think.

[James Petregallo]

Who knows. We'll worry about it later. We gotta finish the end of the story. But I'm. Fuck. As soon as we stop. Hit stop. We're.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's not a sermon killer. I'm be upset.

[James Petregallo]

It's gonna be crazy. Around the time that time, according to an FBI report, President Kennedy appointed Walker President Kennedy John F. Kennedy appointed Walker to a government post concerning concerning advertising ventures abroad, he said. At that time, the report notes, Walker was recruited by the CIA, trained and did perform assigned duties without question. The report adds that Walker even today retains top secret clearance and that the murder conviction would not prevent further service with the agency. The report, their report says that this is real. This is crazy. Walker deftly sidesteps questions about the government service and will not say what those assigned duties were. Characteristically, he's flippant about getting out of prison. He said. I don't really mind being in jail. I guess I could find more excitement outside, but I seem to find excitement wherever I go. Yeah. Here's some of his accomplishments in jail. For every prisoner whose case Walker has taken, he's at least won a hearing, usually by the Freedom of Information act act to obtain all official records on the case. Then, finding a discrepancy substantial enough to persuade a judge that a hearing is warranted, Walker hit pay dirt. In the case of one prisoner client convicted of selling drugs. Walker's close examination of police reports revealed that the man had been at the scene of the crime but was mistakenly identified by undercover agents as the drug peddler. The man was set free. A female guard at an out of state prison asked Walker's advice about about suing a physician because of complications resulting from an abortion and wound up filing a $200,000 malpractice suit. Walker laid the groundwork from his cell, then turned over the case to her attorney on the outside. Walker won a settlement for one prisoner after lodging a formal complaint with the State Bar of California charging that the man had been ripped off by a mail order legal assistance firm. On his first day at Vacaville, Walker spotted that arriving inmates failed to receive a copy of house rules and complaint procedures. He went to work and made sure that prison authorities made good on their requirement to supply inmates with that information. You can't say someone's breaking the rules if you didn't give him a rulebook. That makes sense. Again, through Walker's persistence, officials fortified the Vacaville Law Library by replacing missing legal references reference books. A medical assistant there at the prison landed a five day suspension without pay as a result of a complaint Walker filed accusing the man of discourtesy and sloppy work. The Solano county grand jury reviewed and referred to the district attorney a civil suit Walker filed against a number of Vacaville authorities from the prison and superintendent on down, charging them with bungling his and other inmates medical treatment, treatment, his Latest foray into the system. A drive to provide inmates with padlocks to secure personal property and cells. You can't have that. Is the best weapon on earth. Yeah. You can't have that in a fucking jail. Prompted him to fire off sternly worded memos to the prisons director, Jerry Ekamoto. Okay, 1978. What's hope up to? Tell me, how's she putting her life back together? Cause if all that was true, she. She has got to be just mentally. She needs therapy bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a mess.

[James Petregallo]

So July 1978 is the first time she goes back to the ranch. Her mother threatened to sell it unless she showed some interest in it. So she and her children drove up for a weekend. She swam in the river. She slept in the same corner bedroom. She felt peaceful and content. Then when she got home, she locked herself in her bedroom and cried for four days. Days. She says she cried for herself. She cried for Bill.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She cried for Walker. Why? She said she doesn't know. Depths of her fear and anger and grief and guilt, and. It's a tangle of emotions she can't explain. It's Stockholm syndrome. She just got it quick. That's all I could think. Then they find out she's been corresponding with him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. They corresponded. When he wrote that many prisoners were now allowed to marry, he said, will you marry me? She felt she had to see him to settle things. She visited him in San Quentin, stayed overnight in Fresno, went back a second day. Then she went home and her daughter clipped something from a magazine that seemed appropriate for, quote, one of the most important signs of maturity is realization and acceptance of the fact that no one will ever fully understand. You're not going to get to the bottom of everything. Yeah. So Hope accepted that. And when asked why Walker let her live, she gave an answer. She said, everyone thinks Walker let me live for one of two reasons. Sex or money. Either we were sexually mad for each other, or my parents paid him off. It never seems to occur to anybody that maybe Walker let me live because he thought I was a good person, a useful person, a valuable human being. That doesn't really fit his whole thing here or.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

There's. Here's the thing. Oh. By the way, three months after Hope visited, Walker did get married. But not to her, to a prison dietitian.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He just needed to be married.

[James Petregallo]

There's one question we've got to settle at the end of this, but. 1981, a book is published. This is Joan Barthol publishing a death In California and it's so much. She did such a great job. So hats off. Tip of the cap. Great ship. New York Times made their quote about it being one of the strangest cases in the annals of American Crime. 1983. Walker sues the sheriffs in Illinois, which stems from his long history of filing civil lawsuits. He names prison officials and all this shit. This is what he does. He's suing for $62,500 against three Tulare County Sheriff's officers and a deputy director. District attorney. Yeah, he's asking for $12,500 each from a bunch of these people and 25,000 from the district attorney. Wow, that is crazy. 1985. The book is adapted into a two part ABC miniseries starring this is crazy. Cheryl Ladd as Hope Masters and Walkers played by Sam fucking Elliot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Awesome. Sam Elliott played this guy by Sam Elliott.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's awesome.

[James Petregallo]

I want him to. I want him to tell somebody about beef in my presence. 1985.

[Jimmy Wissman]

85.

[James Petregallo]

He's all handsome. This is like two years, three years before Roadhouse. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

85. Sam Elliott is a smoke show.

[James Petregallo]

Great shit. This is cool. They renamed him Jordan Williams for the film the guy. The miniseries received two Emmy nominations. Hope ends up remarrying, changing her name and withdrawing from public life. She said she cooperated with the author to ensure that the story was told in her view accurately. She said she wanted to be seen as a victim of trauma, not a criminal. The ranch is still there. That's that. 1989, he starts getting parole hearings. Yeah, okay. Oakland Tribune says rare parole hearing for jailhouse lawyers. In an unprecedented move that has state parole officials in a huff, a judge has ordered a parole board or parole board members to hold a hearing in his courtroom. And it's for G. Daniel Walker, who's 67 at the time, self styled king of jailhouse lawyers, is suing officials and others throughout the state, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're talking about him being a CIA operative, yada, yada, yada. So they're giving him a parole hearing. They didn't spell out why they wanted the parole hearing in the courtroom, but all of Walker's prison files are there now, and the judge has said he wants the parole case cleared up before he rules on other legal issues Walker's brought up. So he basically forced them into a parole hearing into this courtroom, his parole hearing. Walker said his last parole hearing in 87 was not conducted properly and that's why he didn't get out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

November 3rd, 1991, his case is featured on a branch off of Unsolved Mysteries. It's called Diabolical Minds. It's a Special. It airs 11-3-91, where he does an interview with Robert Ressler, who is one of the top FBI profilers forever. And he's with the Mindhunter guys with John Douglas.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Two S's, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. He showed many signs of a diabolical mind condition. A theory that postulated that some people are unable to differentiate between moral right and wrong. He talked about his lengthy rap sheet, boasted about crimes that he hadn't ever been charged with. He also talked about escape attempts and his overall prison life. He also mentioned how there are similarities between the police and the criminals they try to catch. Every cop will tell you that. November 4th, 1991, another parole hearing. He is denied again. Now they're saying he's 60 in this parole hearing. So take your age at whatever. He represents himself in the hearing, claiming the parole board has no authority to decide whether he should be released. Released from prison, and then left the room. That was his parole hearing. You don't even have the authority. Okay. Shortly after that, by the way, this is after the parole hearing and after his interview with Robert Ressler. He tried to get a shipment of poison sent to him while in prison in an attempt to kill a deputy district attorney that had prosecuted him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In what year? What do you order?

[James Petregallo]

91.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Where did he order that from?

[James Petregallo]

I have no idea. Fucking Dark Web commissary. So as of 2024, he's 93 years old. That's how we know what age he is. He's still older. If he was 10 years older, he would be 103, so that's unlikely. He is 93 years old, still old, in 2004, and he goes up for parole for the 15th time at 93. Come on, you know what I mean? He's like, they gotta let me out. He was at the California Healthcare Facility in Stockton. After, at the hearing, the commissioners noted that he recorded a, quote, lack of programming and self reflection while in custody, and they deny him parole. Come back when you're 95 is literally what they said.

[Jimmy Wissman]

90, 40 years old.

[James Petregallo]

The guy is half dead, sees a skeleton sitting in front of you, you're like, you could still get into some shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They wheelchaired him in, right? There's no way that guy walked.

[James Petregallo]

No. The DA said this was Walker's 15th parole hearing. The district Attorney's office regularly attends life parole hearings, and a supervising deputy district attorney argued against the inmate's release. This Case. There you go. There's Springville. That's a crazy fucking story.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it not 93 still in there.

[James Petregallo]

93. Here's my question. Why did he pick Bill out to do this with? He picks people out all the time, so maybe something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think he was half honest with her. I think he saw her being hot as shit.

[James Petregallo]

That's possible.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And he just saw this dude in a sports car and was just like, I got it in. I could say that I'm doing that. I just want to. Did he think he could romance her and make her fall in love with him?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. If he figured he could pull, like, what's that movie with Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger in the early 90s? The getaway or the fucking, you know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What I'm talking about, Proposal.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. It's the one where, like, Alec Baldwin's like, a criminal and he kidnaps these two and he ends up, like, with the girl. Like, she's like his boyfriend. I mean, guys like Tyler, that feels.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like a very common one because the chase was with Charlie Sheen.

[James Petregallo]

Same thing. Yeah, same. Yeah, that's how it goes. Oh, it's. You know, I fell in love with.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Him, so I got. This job is unsucked, so you know how it is.

[James Petregallo]

Charlie Sheen, pocket full of coke too. So that'll do it. So there you go. If you like this story, get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps tremendously drive the show up the charts. Shutupandgivemerder.com is where you get your tickets. Starting out with February 21st. Nashville, Tennessee. Come and see us down there. Then March 6th and 7th in Durham and Atlanta, your stupid opinions. Phoenix on the 21st, Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, Boston. Get your tickets right now. Shutupandgivemerder.com Follow us on social media. Smalltownmurder. On Instagram, Smalltownpod. On Facebook, you can get Patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports. The best damn value in podcasting. Anybody, five dollars a month or above, you get all we put out, including hundreds and hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. You get them all this week. Crime and sports, old timey ads and stuff like that. The sales, Jimmy, they're so fun. We've done those before. They are hilarious. Then for small town murder, we're gonna do Dean Coral Part two, where we left off, we found 27 bodies and there's a possible John Wayne Gacy connection. And we're gonna tie it all together. It's wild, no? Yeah. Dean's at 28. I guess that would be. So do that. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out, which comes up in a second. Plus you get everything. We do every ad free, which is wonderful. And you get a shout out right now. But before we say that, we will say, definitely tune in to see us on Netflix on January 26th. It's a Monday, so it's just the one Monday. Then we go right back to Wednesday after that. Mondays it'll be Wednesday and Friday after that. Just like the last 700 almost episodes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just the one Monday.

[James Petregallo]

Just the one Monday. How many Monday?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just one.

[James Petregallo]

Just one. It's just one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't say don't fault. Quiz me, Jimmy.

[James Petregallo]

Hit me with the names of the best fucking people in the world that keep this ship afloat. Hit me with them right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This week's executive producers are Kelsey Keel and Nate Scraggles. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much for being a part of. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Joanne Tinkler. Happy Hour. Checking in. Bakersfield. Jesus. Ryan Bender, Janice Hill, Daniel Sveila, Monte Lizio. Icarus with no last name. Mac Murphy, Bruce Wingate, Mimi Almer, Almerson Almar, Son, Zachary Cameron. What? Karamitho Angelo, Last name Bernard with no last name. Melissa Sabunya, dawn with a W. Sarah Shire, Candy Young, Mellie P. Lenny. Nope.

[James Petregallo]

Jenny.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jenny Langdon. All right. Kristen Long, Angela Schaefer, Kyle V. Ashley. Sky Welker, Adrian with no last name. Beth with no last name. Mara Richards, Cassandra Nunez, Stacy Havens, Patty Fowler. Said Syed Sayed, Iron Dondo. That might be. That might be.

[James Petregallo]

Auto gave it a shot. He gave it a hell of a shot, though. Ted.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Next. With no last name. Sky M. Long. Carrie Thiessen, Alexandra Fullerton. Caleb Morley, Brian York, Caitlin Barfield, Crystal Ringer, Adria Andrea. Andrea F. Kaitlyn Woods. D. Francis, Crystal Downs, Amos with no last name. Ernest Brewster, Malik Feimster, Ann D. Bays Davies. Dibies Grace Piper, Laura with no last name. Heather with no last name. Tori Guisto, Tony Lynn, Ollie Olgardner Lang, Deborah Johnson, Benjamin N. Dave Fleiss. Oh, like Heidi. Patty Posh, Stephanie Lynn, Alberto Duennas, Craig Berry, Al the Cobb, Jude Prost, Disa Bird, Micah Tompkins, Jesse with no last name. Jen Lee Big Johnson. 88 J. James A. Giant Johnson, Wendy Burnett, Sandra Jordan.

[James Petregallo]

Nice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nice. Quirk Corey Sepich, Judy Horvath or arca? Arca. Arca. Not gonna work here.

[James Petregallo]

Did you say Horvath or Horvath?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Horvath. Okay, it's probably Arsa Diacono, but it might be arca. It's, it's, it's weird because it's two different ways to do it. A C. That's got to be.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Kelsey stuff. Kelly. Kelly Hosing. Cecilia with no last name. Matt P. Wayne with no last name Shane Morrill. Dump truck with no last name. Granya with no last name Claire Northcutt. T. Blanks Dld Lux. Yep. Annika with no last name Kayla with no last name Smith Kelly Danny Brnog. Brnoff Tanya Kenyon. Zacha Ko's, Zaka Ko's Wendy S. Mark with no last name. Samantha. Samantha White. Steven Stanford. Stanford John Matthews Mathis Ty with no last name. Perhaps Tall. Christine Stancil, Kim Bennett. Bennett Spencerino, Susan Durham, Brooke Craig, Christian Cameron, Bow V. Holden O. Kim Matchik, Schroeder Schrader, Celine with no last name. Nope. Fu Armelaino Fields, Samantha Halleck, Miguel Gonzalez and all of our patrons. You guys are the best.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you. Thank you so much, everybody. Goddamn fantastic sons of bitches. We appreciate everything you do. Thanks for supporting us. Thank you for making, making it so we could have a Netflix show. Also thanks to Libsyn for letting us do this. Also being supportive of this, being supportive of the network that you know that they're great people, really nice people, they do a wonderful job and we couldn't be happier with them and Netflix has been nice to us, so it's terrific. Thank you so much everybody. If you want to follow us, shut up and give me murder.com as drop down menus keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Small town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. But potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. Out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention. You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn and Ads, go to libsynads. Com. That's L, I B S Y N Ads. Com. Today.