The Sinister Minister - Jackson Township, Pennsylvania

Summary

Small Town Murder – “The Sinister Minister – Jackson Township, Pennsylvania”

Podcast: Small Town Murder
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Episode Date: February 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into a chilling case from Jackson Township, Pennsylvania, where disturbing patterns emerge around one man: Pastor Arthur “A.B.” Shermer. After his first wife dies in a suspicious “accident” and, years later, his second wife perishes in an equally questionable car crash, the small town’s trust sours into suspicion. The hosts deliver an in-depth, story-driven look at the investigation, the broader religious community, and the dark side of charisma, all delivered with their signature dark humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jackson Township: The Setting

• Location Confusion: There are 18 Jackson Townships in Pennsylvania, complicating research for the hosts. This story takes place in Monroe County, eastern PA—about equidistant from Philadelphia and New York City ([06:00–08:00]).
• Local Color: The town is small, older, and more female than male, with a strong religious presence (especially Catholic). The median age is nearly 47, and it’s described as having “eclectic weather”—hot summers and cold winters ([10:25–13:00]).
• Notable Features: Taste of local culture—former ice industry, reviews about “minimal crime” and “eclectic” (meaning variable) weather, and a real estate rundown with some surprisingly pricey and strange homes ([08:51–17:00]).

2. Introducing the Shermers

• Arthur “A.B.” Shermer: Born in 1948, always wanted to be a minister. Charismatic, good singer, and a staple of the community ([24:34–26:05]).
• Jewel Shermer (First Wife): A preacher’s daughter (actually both parents were ministers), actively involved in church music, teaching, and children’s programming. Known for patience, warmth, and devotion ([26:06–38:00]).
• Their Marriage & Public Life: Married young, three kids, “church power couple” who travel for musical ministry, release religious albums, and perform at women’s events—often where A.B. is the center of female attention ([46:31–51:33]).

3. Behind the Scenes: Multiple Affairs & Scandal

• A.B.’s Affairs: Even early in their marriage, A.B. can’t stay faithful—he has liaisons with members of his congregation, including those he’s supposed to be counseling ([39:34–44:36]).
• Memorable Commentary:

  “Pastor… not to be trusted with your wife. That’s… not good!” – James ([42:08])

• Jewel’s Dilemma: She is aware, unable to seek divorce due to religious and social pressure. Continues to work and serve in the church in silence—an “Angela” figure worn down by her husband’s betrayals ([45:58–47:44]).

4. First Tragedy: The 1999 Staircase Death (Jewel)

• The Incident (Apr 23, 1999): A.B. returns from jogging to find Jewel at the bottom of the basement stairs, head trauma, shop-vac cord around her ankle.
• Red Flags:
  • A.B doesn’t ride in ambulance, stays behind to “change clothes.”
  • Medical examiner notes severe trauma: 14 impact areas, skull fracture requires 750 lbs of force. No corresponding injuries to hands, arms, or torso—just the head ([21:59–24:39; 76:00–78:07]).
• Medical Theory/Problems:
  • Initial speculation: heart attack led to fall.
  • Organ donor: Her heart is already transplanted before full exam—convenient, but suspicious ([74:13–75:28]).
  • Autopsy: Heart tissue proves she didn’t have a heart attack ([75:46–76:12]).
• Cops’ Response: Medical examiner flags undetermined cause, recommends more investigation. Police do nothing. Jewel’s brother finds blood scene cleaned up almost immediately ([78:32–81:00]).
• Memorable Quote:

  “The cops said, thanks for the tip, and they did nothing.” – James ([78:35])

5. A New Start: Marriage to Betty Jean Scherzer

• Remarriage: Within two years, A.B. finds new love in Betty, a widely-liked, deeply charitable woman. Her family is thrilled: “He sings like an angel, he’s nice, you can’t beat it here.” ([84:19–88:32])
• Timeline: Married June 2001—Betty’s family and A.B.’s daughters embrace the union. A.B. quickly rises in church ranks again ([86:45–88:32]).

6. Another Scandal: Affair with Cindy Musante

• The Affair: A.B. begins an affair with his secretary, Cindy, whose husband Joe is a downtrodden, alcoholic carpenter and parishioner. Cindy, tired of her marriage, falls for A.B. ([89:17–93:17])
• Discovery and Family Fallout:
  • Cindy’s daughter Samantha (16) discovers explicit texts and warns her father. Samantha catfishes the lovers to try to stop it—they respond by gaslighting her ([94:52–100:03]).
  • Memorable Quote:

    “It wasn’t ‘I love you in Christ.’ I’m gonna tag the Christ out of you when I see you.” – Jimmie ([97:40])

7. Second Tragedy: The 2008 “Car Crash” (Betty)

• The Crash (July 15, 2008): A.B. drives Betty (supposedly ill) to hospital at 2am; claims a deer runs in front, he swerves, crashes at 55 mph, unbelted Betty is fatally injured.
• Red Flags:
  • A bystander notes A.B.’s emotionless attitude: “He was like, yeah, here’s my wife, check her out…” – James ([103:30])
  • A.B. fails to call 911—the bystander does. Betty suffers catastrophic injuries and is taken off life support.
  • Betty, a well-known seatbelt crusader, supposedly wasn’t wearing one—A.B. changes his story multiple times ([108:43–112:23]).
• The Immediate Cremation & Deer Urn:
  • Betty’s family is shocked at swift cremation despite Betty's opposition to it.
  • A.B. has her ashes placed in an urn decorated with a deer—ostensibly as a memorial… or misdirection ([129:41–130:06, 177:36]).
  • “He puts her in a deer urn. Is that telling on yourself a little bit?” – James ([130:01])

8. Joe Musante’s Suicide: Connecting the Dots

• The Fallout:
  • When Cindy’s husband, Joe, uncovers the affair, he spirals. After threats and heartbreak, Joe shoots himself behind the pastor’s desk at the church ([119:47–121:48]).
  • The investigation confirms suicide with gunshot residue and physical evidence ([121:12–121:38]).
• Family Heroism:
  • Joe’s sister, Rose Cobb, pieces together the pattern: two dead wives, a suicide—all linked to A.B. She pushes authorities to investigate deeper, contacting police and Bishop ([131:39–132:30]).
  • Without Rose (“the A1 hero”), the murders nearly go unpunished ([132:47–134:03]).

9. Toppling the House: Investigations & Forensics

• Prosecutor’s Questions:
  • After Joe’s death, authorities revisit Betty’s “accident.” Blood patterns in the PT Cruiser suggest staged injury; blood-trail and diluted stains in the garage indicate Betty was attacked at home, then moved ([143:14–144:50]).
  • Crash reconstruction experts find A.B. lied about events. No evidence of deer or high speed; undisturbed coin holder further proves low impact ([137:36–139:06]).
  • Luminol reveals blood trails in the garage leading to the car, matching Betty ([143:16–144:50]).
  • Investigators also re-examine Jewel’s death, using crash test dummies and biomedical experts to prove falling down the stairs couldn’t cause her wounds. Both wives had near-identical head injuries, both killed by blunt-force trauma from a cylindrical object ([163:14–163:54]).

10. The Trials & Aftermath

• Trial 1: Betty’s Murder (2013)
  • Prosecutors paint A.B. as “a wolf in shepherd’s clothing…preying on his own flock.”
  • Family members testify about A.B.’s manipulations, gaslighting, and cold behavior.
  • A.B. testifies, overconfident, stares uncomfortably at jury, insists on innocence, fails to sway anyone ([175:00–176:28]).
  • Verdict: Guilty—first-degree murder, life without parole ([180:14–180:33]).
  • Betty’s sisters express relief and hope A.B. suffers in prison.
• Trial 2: Jewel’s Murder (2014)
  • Faced with overwhelming evidence and already serving life, A.B. pleads no contest to third-degree murder, denying guilt but “taking the plea for his daughters' sake” ([182:20–183:21]).
  • Judge:

    “You’re the worst guy I’ve ever sentenced.” ([183:39])

  • Sentence: 20–40 years consecutive to life.
• Legacy & Fallout
  • Cindy, the affair partner, remains dedicated—visits A.B. in prison, supports him, acts as surrogate mother to his daughters, and all believe him innocent.
  • Cindy’s daughter Samantha (the initial “whistleblower”) is estranged from her mother and regards A.B. as dangerous:

    “My deepest wish is for Cindy to truly see Arthur. To witness his authentic self, the man he truly is.” ([186:02])

  • Detective Wagner credits Rose Cobb and Samantha Musante as the essential forces bringing A.B. to justice.
  • “Science doesn’t lie, but people do routinely… but truth is always on the body and in the body. You just have to find it.” – Medical Examiner ([187:24])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cleaning up the scene:

  “The cops said, thanks for the tip, and they did nothing.” – James ([78:35])

• On finding blood in the garage:

  “The detective said… it lit up like crazy. …I could not believe I was seeing blood stains on the floor.” ([143:11])

• A.B. on the deer urn:

  “Betty loved deer, man. And at that moment I thought it would be meaningful.” ([177:36])

• Host banter on hymns and seduction:

  “Imagine getting into church for pussy… You could have just learned three jokes…” – James ([40:47]) “Closed mouths don’t get fed, is what I’ve been told.” – Jimmie ([91:55])

• On science vs. willful disbelief:

  “I just don’t believe what [the medical examiner] said.” – Julie (daughter) ([166:06])

  • James: “She doesn’t buy it. I believe that to be true. Oh, Julie.”
• On the public funerals/urns:

  “Is that telling on yourself a little bit? The deer thing…?” ([130:06])

• Prosecutor’s summation:

  “Images of desperation… betrayal… the image of a wolf in shepherd’s clothing, preying upon his own flock.” ([170:20])

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Town background & local color: [05:20–17:00]
• A.B. & Jewel’s early life & public persona: [24:34–38:00]
• Affair pattern and congregation gossip: [39:34–47:44]
• Jewel’s suspicious death: [21:59–24:39], [74:13–81:00]
• Betty’s marriage & “accident”: [84:19–112:23], [129:41–130:06 (urn)]
• Affair with Cindy and Joe’s suicide: [89:17–121:48]
• Forensics, investigation reopening: [143:14–145:40], [163:14–163:54]
• Trials/verdicts: [170:20–184:01]

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Tone, Humor, & Style

James and Jimmie break up the horrific tragedy with a stream of self-aware jokes about church politics, true crime tropes, and their own ignorance of certain religious songs or practices. It’s irreverent, openly critical of religious hypocrisy, and punctuated by tangents that highlight the inherent absurdity or darkness of the events. The banter is fast, but always brings the listener back to the human consequences of the case.

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Final Takeaway

The case of “The Sinister Minister” is a study in how charm and authority can be used to manipulate communities and evade justice—until two persistent women (Rose Cobb and Samantha Musante) refused to let the pattern of violence be swept under the rug. The hosts’ comedic approach brings both relief and sharp critique, shining a clear spotlight on the dangers of unchecked charisma in positions of trust.

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If you missed the episode, this summary provides the full arc, critical details, and the host’s comedic perspective—no need to worry about skipping the ads or intros, either!

Transcript

[A]

Whether you're solving murders during breakfast, cracking cold cases on your commute, or playing amateur detective at bedtime, Amazon Music's got millions of podcast episodes waiting. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with Prime. Small Town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and safe hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, but potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This week in Jackson Township, Pennsylvania, when a pastor's wife dies in a seemingly tragic way, everybody has nothing but sympathy. But when a second wife also ends up dead, sympathy quickly turns into suspicion. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[B]

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

[A]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder. We got some wild stuff for you today as usual that shouldn't be a shock to anybody out there. Would like to welcome everybody back to Netflix, of course. Yeah. And if you're new to the show, check out. We have over 600 more episodes, so you can listen to that wherever you listen to podcasts. Also listen to crime and sports and you'd stupid opinions. Our other two shows. Check those out and do that. Definitely head over to shut upandgivemerder.com you need tickets for live shows, everybody. And that's where they are. Starting with February 21st in Nashville. This week coming up. Let's go. Still a few tickets left. So get your tickets now. We can't wait. Also March 6th in Durham, North Carolina, March 7th in Atlanta. And that your stupid opinion show in Phoenix on March 21 as well at Standup Live. Get those. Shut up and give me murder.com then get yourself patreon. Do yourself a favor. Patreon.com crimeinsports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get everything we put out, including hundreds of bonus episodes as soon as you subscribe back. Ones you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One crime in sports, one Small Town murder. How much of that do they get? A little bit of it. They get it all. All of it? No. I thought it was a little bit of it. They get all of it.

[B]

No. Oh, my God, I don't have any room in my pockets to hold any of this.

[A]

You get it all. There you go. And in addition to that, you also get all the shows. We put out, Crime and sports here, Stupid opinion, Small town murder, all ad free. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. Unbelievable. And you get new ones every other week, new bonus episodes. One crime in sports, one Small town murder, and you get it all. This week for crime and sports, we're going to talk about. We're going to part two of the Dead cyclists episode. Because that was wild. Cyclists, you guys are. The people on bicycles die so often. It's crazy. So much then for small town murder, let's do it. Let's dig into some conspiracy theory time and all of this with the. We're going to talk about the Kurt Cobain death because, yeah, we've been planning on it actually for about the last month. And then two days ago they came out with some new thing and investigation or whatever. So we're going to look into all that and see what we think. Because I haven't looked into it that deeply. I have my opinions, but who knows? We'll see what happens here. Patreon.com crimeinsports that said, Disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's a comedy show. We're comedians. People are certainly gonna die because the show would be false advertising if they didn't. But we're also gonna make jokes. And you go, how does that work? Well, it works very easily here. Cause we do it tastefully. See, that's how we do it. Think like 70s playboy, the side of something. Nothing too crazy. Yeah, you don't want to be. You don't want to be too gross about the whole thing. And I think the jokes lighten it up a little bit too. To me, if I'm listening to a serious show and they're like, and her head was removed from her body. It almost sounds creepier, doesn't it? It sounds gross. We like to try to lighten the mood a little bit. But what we do is we never make fun of the victims or the victim's families.

[B]

Why's that, James?

[A]

Because we're assholes.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

But we're not scumbags. And that's how that goes. That's all you have to do there. So that sounds good to you. You're gonna hear if you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, we might not be for you. I don't know what to tell you, but I think maybe you should check it out and give it a try. Might be something that you don't think you would like, but you'll like it either way. No complaining later.

[B]

That's what it is.

[A]

That's the way it works. Because we don't really care that says about what people think anyway. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky, and let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Let's go on a trip, shall we?

[B]

We got it.

[A]

All right. We're going to Jackson Township, Pennsylvania. That means nothing to you or to me? Because we don't live in Pennsylvania. If you live in Pennsylvania, you probably cracked up laughing just hearing that, because there are 18 Jackson townships in Pennsylvania. Stop it. Which, yeah, when they planned that out, they didn't understand that someday some dickhead doing research for a fucking comedy murder podcast would have to figure out which goddamn Jackson Township this is in which county, and then get all the right. It's insane how hard this was to compile the township. This is in eastern Pennsylvania. It's about an hour 45 to Philly and about an hour 45 to New York City. So right there, equidistant. Yep. It's about an hour and a half to Pottstown, Pennsylvania. Our last Pennsylvania episode, Strange affairs and Frozen Blood, which I think you can pretty much. You can glean from that and go back and check it out. This is in Monroe County. So this is the Jackson Township in Monroe County. That's the only thing that separates them, is there's no two in the same county. I think that's the only rule they set out here. And this is a place where zip codes are important. If you're mailing something very, very important. Area code 570-272. Town motto. Pretty simple and understandable. You're looking for the other Jackson Township. Sorry, sir. Town motto.

[B]

Yeah, but wait, there's more.

[A]

But wait, there's more. Oh, you're in the wrong place, man. Yeah, you want to be over in Lebanon County. Because that's where one of them is. That's where one of them is because I did the entire goddamn town stuff on that one and realized it was the one in Monroe county and had to go back and do it over again. So a lot of fun history in this town. A big portion of the Pocono State park, which is a big Pennsylvania state park, is on Camelback Mountain. Which doesn't just exist in Phoenix in Jackson Township. So it's a big part of that area. Jackson Township was incorporated on December 13, 1843, and like most of the Jackson Townships, was named for Andrew Jackson. Andrew. Andrew Jackson. Yeah. A lot of the ones came about, like the one in Lebanon came about in, like, 1814. Which at that point, he was the hero of the War of 1812. So that made sense. And then later on, though, you're, you know, you're making a statement with that one. Jackson Township was mainly a farming and logging community, really. I guess, according to their history, quote, some of the state's most progressive farms in the mid-19th century were located in Jackson Township. I don't know what that. They grew weed. What does that mean?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Mushrooms? What are we talking about? Progressive farms. Jackson Township also played a part in the Monroe county ice industry. This was a big deal, an actual industry. Most of the ice was harvested on two major lakes in the township. Trout Lake and Mountain Springs Lake. They just imagine that wait for the shit to freeze and chip it off and bring it in.

[B]

You're just getting frozen lake water, then.

[A]

You'Re drinking lake water. Trout. Gross. Which sounds like there's trout in it, which means it probably smells of fish, I would think. Right.

[B]

I can't imagine just drinking ice cubes of lake in your drink.

[A]

It would look like demigloss, basically. It would have chunks floating in it and shit. Like, why is it all cloudy?

[B]

Why?

[A]

No good. I don't like it.

[B]

Is that all you used it for was just for drinks?

[A]

I don't know if it was for drinks or. I think mainly back then they used it to keep. They had ice boxes, keep things fresh. Yeah. You get ice to put in the ice box to keep your fridge. That was a fridge back then, before electricity. So I think that was the major thing rather than for drinks. But, I mean, I'm sure somebody made some shit with it.

[B]

That's fascinating.

[A]

Reviews. This town has about 3.7 stars on niche as the average here. Here is 4 stars. A lot of people come for Crayola and Hershey, both of which are great.

[B]

Okay, so it's near both of those.

[A]

Yeah. Are you eating crayons, sir? I don't know.

[B]

Is that.

[A]

Both are great. They're both great.

[B]

Both are delicious.

[A]

I like yellow crayons and the regular Hershey's chocolate bar. The classic. You know what I mean?

[B]

The gray is nice.

[A]

It's not bad. You wouldn't think it would have any flavor. You'd think gray would be pretty tasteless, but man is. Got something in there. Here's four stars. I wish I had the option of staying here forever. Are you being.

[B]

Why don't you.

[A]

Are you being sent to space or something? Like, why can't you just stay there? You can stay as long as you want.

[B]

Have you been forcibly removed?

[A]

That's what I mean. If they kick you out of the town, here's four stars. Minimal crime in this area. We'll be the judge of that. We have the stats. Besides some isolated occasions, not many drastic occurrences. No major crimes. There are no giant in a small town in the middle of Pennsylvania. Not shocking. Here is three stars. Very eclectic. Now when you hear that, you would think, oh, there's a lot of different kinds of people. Maybe there's an art district and then there's an industrial area. It's very eclectic. No, no.

[B]

What does it mean?

[A]

They mean it's. Well, I'll just read it. It gets quite hot in the summer.

[B]

Eclectic.

[A]

Below zero in the winter and everything in between. You know, Weather.

[B]

We have eclectic weather.

[A]

Is that what they mean? Eclectic weather meaning. Yeah, it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter. That's eclectic weather. You just live in Pennsylvania. That's all it is. Quirky. Quirky. Here's two stars. Many people I know are related to work in the area and are paid minimum wage. Are related to work. I don't know if they mean elated to work or related. I'm not sure.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

My 46 year old mother, who is about to receive her master's degree and go on to her doctorate, works two jobs. Victoria's Secret. So they got a mall for below $10 an hour and a job overseeing special needs students at their jobs, which pays a salary of less than 5,000 a year. But she's got like hot panties on while she's.

[B]

All the time.

[A]

She's got some hot underwear on while she's teaching.

[B]

These kids can't see the panty line.

[A]

James, that's amazing. The kids notice no panty line. Yeah, they're sticklers for that kind of shit. People in this town, 6596. Not a big town. Not a small tiny town, but kind of an in between, but a little town. Men and women. Way more women than men for a town of 6,560. 600 people, 53.9% women, which is a lot. It's normally like almost even men. 46.1, obviously. Median age here, 46.9, which is well above the national average by about eight years. So it's an older crowd. Family here too. It's a very kind of stay married kind of crowd. 57.2% are married. So that's above the national average by far. Lower divorce rate than normal. And it's about average for people that are single with children. Race of this town, 71.1% white, 7.3% black, 4.4% Asian, 16.3% Hispanic. 45.3% of the people here are religious, which is lower than the national average by about 5%. And the leading religion here, unshockingly is Catholic. 25.1% Catholic. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the north. So they're everywhere. Yep. But our particular story takes place around a religious guy. And I don't think he's Catholic. Not Catholic, not Catholic. 0.2% Jewish. Unemployment a little bit high. Not too, too high, but a little bit high. But I mean you're kind of an hour 45 in either direction from any kind of city.

[B]

So if you need a job, head over to Victoria's Secret.

[A]

I mean it's nine bucks an hour.

[B]

But it's not great.

[A]

You get a broad discount, so that's helpful. But it's a job, it's something. The median household income of a Jackson Township resident here or the median household income here is 82,938. So that's above the national average.

[B]

Not bad.

[A]

$13,000, that's not bad.

[B]

Commutable to Philly. Right.

[A]

That's why an hour 45, it's commute. You could do it, but it's rough.

[B]

Tough day.

[A]

It's a tough day. I know a lot of people that do it from my house, like around me to the city. It's an hour and a half day. It's a long day when you're doing three hours of round trip back and forth just in commuting. Cost of living here, 100 is regular. Average here it's 95. And the housing is high here.

[B]

Really?

[A]

The median home cost here, 432,500 bucks. That's median.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

That is high. That is very high. Pennsylvania's average is $242,800 for the state. That is well above that. And if we've convinced you, damn it. The only place you could possibly be happy is in this particular Jackson Township. Because, you know, we know there's plenty of others. We have for you the Jackson Township, Pennsylvania real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for 1,220 bucks. Which is about the national average. Yeah, not bad. Now here's some houses here. I found number one. You're gonna build your own house. Damn it.

[B]

Oh, just land.

[A]

Big old hillside. 17.96 acres. So 18 acres. Wow. Good amount of land. 109,000 bucks. That's a lot of land for 109,000 bucks.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of on a hill, so it'd be hard to build shit like you gotta really gotta get some engineers and architects involved.

[B]

Going to cost you but you got to flatten some.

[A]

The land is decent. Here is a four bedroom, three bath, 2700 square foot house. Now the outside it looks nice. It's a brick house, two story. You know, the two car garage looks very nice. Inside looks like it's got some problems. They need some updating the kitchen. It's just weird, man. It's really done weird. They've made the worst tile choices I've ever seen in a house. In every area it's all fucked up. So it's no good. But four bedroom, three bath, 2700 square feet. 0.36 acres. It is $425,000. There's your average with a $10,000 price cut that just happened. And finally Here is a 4 bedroom, 6 bath T bowl for each and every b hole, everybody. 4,757 square foot. Weird ass house. It is really weird. It was designed by world renowned architect Peter Bolan who looks like he does mushrooms on the weekends. Because this house is weird. It's. That's all I can describe it. It's just. You gotta. Everybody's gotta look it up. We can't show legally show on Netflix by the way, people.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

We'd love to. We can't. We. Because we'd have to get every homeowner's permission and it would be long process that we just don't have in turnaround time in production to be able to do that. So it's not working. And then we'd have to. If they said no then we won't find new houses. It'd be horrible.

[B]

Yeah. This house and down every fucking week.

[A]

Yeah. 795,000 bucks. It's on 3.9 acres and it is just weird. Got to see it to believe it type of weird house. Things to do.

[B]

They might be grateful for us to give the listing a little bit of.

[A]

They would have to a little bit of run.

[B]

But.

[A]

But they also.

[B]

If it sucks and we make fun of it, they're not going to be happy.

[A]

People are like, why don't you do that? It's like, would you like us to make fun of the house you're trying to sell on the biggest streaming service in the world? Really? Was that what you'd like? I don't think you'd want that.

[B]

Hi. Your architects on mushrooms. Buy this house.

[A]

Yeah, this house is built by a guy on hallucinogens. I think you'll like it. So anyway, things to do in this town. Let's find out what we're doing. The 2025 and this is the 2026. Coming up, Jackson Township community celebration.

[B]

Oh boy. Is there a yard sale?

[A]

It's a four day event. Well, they have rides, inflatables, games, fair, food. Gotta have that. Concessions free live music which we'll talk about craft and merchandise market and all sorts of rides and everything like that. Let's find out what the entertainment is, what we're interested in.

[B]

Show me.

[A]

Let's see here. The Wednesday entertainment will be New Wave Nation. Oh, I don't know. They have a five hour set. It says 6 to 11. That must be a few breaks in there, right?

[B]

That's a band.

[A]

Yeah, I've never seen a band play a five hour set before. That'd be even. Even fish would get bored with that shit, even with their own garbage. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thursday night there will have. They'll have that 80s band. So they play covers from the 80s. That's from 6pm to 11pm Again. Then we have on Friday night there's a couple of walks, a half mile run walk, a kid's walk they have and just to tire them out. And it's not for charity or anything, it's just to tire these little bastards out. We have live entertainment at 6pm Vinyl Arcade will be there.

[B]

It's another band.

[A]

Yeah, it should just be called Retro words. Vinyl arcade, retro stuff. 8:30pm Disco Inferno will be there.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

Is Blockbuster Sam Goody headlining?

[A]

I think. Yeah, they're this next one. The next one. Circuit City. Hollywood Video comes after Blockbuster.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Yeah, we gotta do that here. Disco Inferno. It'd be great if it was just the wrestler from the 90s who came out and he was like hi everybody, how you doing? I'm gonna do some stuff here. Saturday, June 21st. Finally we have from 3 to 11pm this is all going on. At 6 o' clock we have Follow the Sun is the name of the band. Go West, I guess at Night east in the morning, and then at 8:30pm we have trailer Park Ninjas will be there.

[B]

I'm beside myself.

[A]

I don't know what to say about that.

[B]

There's only 6,000 people here.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

Tough to get anybody to show up to this shit.

[A]

Somehow I'm still surprised that Ludacris isn't here, though. Even that. Even that.

[B]

Yeah, dude, Ludacris just played the Bird's Nest that the Waste Management open. Nelly Ludacris and somebody else with them too. But they. They headlined the whole fucking.

[A]

Yeah, because it's a. Well, one of the Ludicry did. You don't know if it was which.

[B]

You don't know which one.

[A]

We don't know which Ludicry that was also. Campfire Acoustic is a band and giants of science. Okay. I don't know how that makes it attractive for music. Now, crime rate in this town, property crime is about one third beneath the national average. So not a lot of property crime. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is slightly above the. Above half the average. So it's almost half the average, too. So it's very safe here.

[B]

Pretty safe.

[A]

Yeah, pretty safe. That said, let's talk about some murder here. Let's do it. Let's get into some murder. Okay. Now, we're gonna start out in North Lebanon Township, which is not the town we just talked about, but it comes up here. This is April 23rd, 1999.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. 2:15pm So a nice spring day, middle of the afternoon.

[B]

Well, not so nice. We're kind of reeling from Columbine right now.

[A]

Oh, yeah. April 23rd, 1999.

[B]

Three days later.

[A]

Yeah, three days after that. These people weren't thinking so much about that, I don't think.

[B]

Maybe not. Yeah, maybe it was already over wrapped up by then.

[A]

Yeah, they were like, yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

[B]

You know, they're dead.

[A]

Fuck it. I mean, they'll find all the bodies eventually, you know. Jesus. That was the worst thing ever. So that was a bad one. Oh, God. So guy named A B. Shermer. Okay. S C H I R M E R A B Shermer went for his afternoon jog that day. He's trying to run off the memories of Columbine. He couldn't take it. He was like, man, I watched it too much on cnn.

[B]

Get some introspective.

[A]

And he returned to his home on Skyline Drive in North Lebanon township at about 2:15pm he walks in the door when he Walked in, he found his wife of decades, as we'll talk about, of almost 30 years. 31 years actually. She's lying at the bottom of the basement stairs in a pool of blood.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

There is a. The cord of a shop vacation. If you don't know what a shop vac is, some people don't know what that. It's the thing that you like that sits in your garage, the big canister and you can just, you can suck up like screws and a swamp and just anything you want in there.

[B]

Plastic bags.

[A]

Get a load of that, kittens. Like whatever. Fuck. It'll take anything in. It's wild.

[B]

All that shit that smokes. The belt in your normal vacuum, clean, no problem.

[A]

Just dump it all out, suck up paint.

[B]

No problem.

[A]

No problem. Well, she's got the cord of one of these shop vacs wrapped around her ankle. So she's down the steps, angled down with her head down there, pool of blood, shop vac cord wrapped around her ankle. So this looks like a tragedy. Looks like she tripped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fell down the stairs. So he calls 911 right away, obviously 911 shows up and weird thing is they take her away in the ambulance. And he doesn't ride in the ambulance with her.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which is strange. You'd think you'd be in the ambulance and if they said you can't be in here for some medical reason, you'd be in the car fucking on their bumper, I would imagine. Right. He stayed back at the house for a bit. Oh, he wanted to stay back. I don't know if he wanted to change his jogging clothes or what the deal is, but he said, I'll be there in a while. I'm gonna stay at the house for a minute here. Which is odd. So Jewel was rushed to Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical center, where doctors discovered she has a traumatic brain injury and a fractured skull.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

They figure out that the fractured skull would have required about 750 pounds of force to apply.

[B]

Can't do that from a fall down the stairs, right?

[A]

I mean, it depends on how big those stairs are. You'd have to be. And if you're breaking your fall at all on the way down, I don't know how you would do that.

[B]

That's like 750 pounds of force dropped.

[A]

From a two story. Like that's a lot. So she's put on life support and she dies. Yeah. Okay, now we'll talk about this here. And you know, obviously this looks like a tragedy. And he's a local AB Is a local pastor, very well known in the area. So is his wife. They've also had a musical act that they've been doing together for the last 30 years that's pretty popular in the church scene around here. So he's a known guy, but they're gonna. They have to look into this. Obviously, it's any death, they. Unexplained death they have to look into. So let's look into them also. Let's join the police and look into them here.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Arthur Burton Shermer is A.B. shermer. Arthur Burton. He's born May 1, 1948. He's originally from Milton, Delaware. Yep. Here. And his parents are Carl and Ina Shermer. And he went to Milton High School down there and went to Eastern Pilgrim College at one point and then went to Messiah College, which sounds slightly religious. That could be a religious school. I'm not positive.

[B]

Messiah College showing you how to live really at the Messiah.

[A]

Wow. So, yeah, he also went to Elizabethtown College at one point. And Messiah College is in Grantham, Pennsylvania. And the Elizabethtown College was also like a Christian school, too, of some kind. So by the time he was 20, he was already saying, I'm gonna be a minister, period. That's what I want to do. And then he meets his wife, his future wife. The woman who we found at the bottom of the stairs. Yeah. Shot, fire. Jewel. Vera Beheney is her name. B, E, H, N E, Y. Until they get married and she changes it to Shermer. So Jewel here, she is a preacher's daughter. Oh, when I say a preacher's daughter, I don't just mean her dad's a preacher. I mean both her parents are preachers. She's a preacher. You know, possessive, plural, possessive apostrophe. Yeah. So she's born in. Wow. Klinefeltersville. Klinefeltersville, Pennsylvania.

[B]

Too many syllables.

[A]

K, L, E, I, N, F, E, L, T E, R, S, F, V, I, L, L, E. Klinefeltersville. Pick a name. Coralville, Kleinville. Felterville. You decide. Her parents are the Reverend Dion Behney and the Reverend Esther Levengood Behney. Those are her parents. So this is not a real party household, I don't think. No, I can't imagine pretty strict stuff here.

[B]

Probably the first time she made out.

[A]

Was with this fella or the opposite, because that's how those girls go.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. If you're the reverend's daughter, you're either chased or you are nothing or all of it fucking Madonna. In 1984.

[B]

None of them are. Every goddamn one.

[A]

Where you're writhing on a stage humping the air. One of the two. Depends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So she went to Cedar Crest High School and Eastern Pilgrim College and she was also attending Messiah College when they met. That's how they met when she was a junior at Messiah College. So they get married. I found their wedding announcement, by the way, in the paper. I found the picture of her. I have the picture of her as a bride and all this shit. She apparently, according to the newspaper, quote, the bride wore an Empire gown of Chantilly lace, which I'm sure what's his name was that Fats Domino would be very excited about.

[B]

Was that not the Big Bopper?

[A]

Big Bopper, was it? Big Bopper. One of those guys. Okay. And it was a 50s song and. Pu, desoi, desoi. I don't know what the fuck. P, E, A, U, pew, pew. I assume de S, O, I, E. I don't know. French is not my strong.

[B]

I'm sure. I'm sure somebody said it to us. We'd know exactly what the fuck.

[A]

Oh, it's a lovely pew desert. You have pew desert.

[B]

It's just like. It's just grunts. That's like caveman language.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of the words in French, they put, like six vowels at the end of a word. And it's just. That's. That's how you pronounce six straight vowels every time it says so. The pew de sir, fashioned with long sleeves and a chapel train. Her veil was attached to a satin flower headpiece. She carried a white Bible topped with white roses and holly. Oh, boy. You can leave the book back there because I'm gonna do horrible things to you later. We don't need that.

[B]

All of that sounds like the least sexy day ever.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, this has nothing to. This is. The Lord is joining two people. This has nothing to do with the hot fucking that's gonna be happening later. Her father gave her away in marriage. A reception for the 500 guests. 500 guests.

[B]

That poo de sil is a big fucking deal.

[A]

I hope it's edible. If there's 500 people there, I hope it's edible.

[B]

That thing's. That's a big deal.

[A]

Wow. 500 people. Was held at the church Junior Chapel.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The junior chapel holds 500 people. The newlyweds are honeymooning in New York State, after which they will be at home in the treetop apartments at Messiah College. So they're gonna move in together. Hey, everybody. Just gonna Take a quick break from the show and tell you a better, easier way to cook with Tovala.

[B]

Tovala.com Absolutely.

[A]

You don't want to stare into the fridge that dinner time. Oh boy. What are we doing? We didn't plan anything tonight. Oh no. How do we make something out of what we have? And how do you put something? Don't do that stuff. Get Tavala. These meals are amazing. I love food. But if you love food and hate cleaning and cooking and doing all that, this is the thing you need to get Tavala. It is fantastic. This podcast is sponsored by Tavala. Tavala is a smart meal delivery service, fresh meals and a smart oven that does the cooking for you. So cool. Small town murder listeners can get a Tavala smart oven for just $49 plus free shipping. When you order meals six plus times, just go to tavala.com stm and use our code STM. Tavala makes it so easy. You scan the meal's QR code, you pop it in the oven and it knows exactly what to do. It cooks everything perfectly and it'll be like, it changes temperatures. There's a steam thing that happens.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

It's the coolest thing in the world and I love this thing. And the other day I had the filet with the red wine glaze. Oh yeah, yeah. And the mashed potatoes. It was, I was impressed. I mean this was so good. The steak, it was a quality piece of meat. The filet was good and it has like less done and more done and I put it on less done and I'm like, oh, let's see if this is good. It was medium rare, perfect. It was juicy. So delicious. Great taste, great. You know, the potatoes are really good. You're gonna love it. And Tavala's smart of it isn't just for their meals as well. You can also use the oven to scan store bought groceries like Eggo waffles, Pillsbury cinnamon rolls and Amy's frozen meals. And on top of that, you can just use it as an oven. You can set a temperature and it's a nice little oven. It's really good. And it's got the steam thing. It's excellent. You're gonna love it. And with Tavala you can finally dinner better and remove dinner from your to do list for a limited time. Because you're a small town murder listener, you can get a Tavala smart oven for just $49 plus free shipping. When you order meals six plus times, just go to tavala.com stm and use our code STM. That's a $49 Tavala smart oven. When you head to tavala.com STM and use the promo code STM one last time. That's T O V A L A dot com. And make sure you use our promo code STM. Remember, with Tovala, dinner is taken care of. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you all about a better way to feed your pups with Ollie.

[B]

Ollie.com.

[A]

Oh, it's absolutely what you need to do. It's the month of love, everyone, and we know that you want to celebrate with the one you love most. Your dog, of course. That's right. I got Frankie, Benny, Oscar. They love this Ollie stuff. They love it. Let's be honest here. There's no love more unconditional than the one you have with your dog. They look at you like the sun rises with you.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

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[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

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[B]

Now back to the show.

[A]

They immediately begin building a life here where he wants to be a pastor and he wants her to be with him doing music stuff. And then they want to have kids and be like the church family and lead a church. And that's what they're all about from the very start. They will have three kids. They will have Julie, Amy, and Micah later on. So there's three kids total. Julie is a music teacher at Our lady of the Valley Elementary School. She worked there for years. She was also Bethany United Methodist Church's pianist, organist, and junior choir director, director of musicals and kindergarten Sunday school teacher.

[B]

So she's Our lady of Whatever the Fuck isn't. That's not Catholic. Huh?

[A]

Our lady of the Valley Elementary School. No. And it might be the religions, by the way, when it comes to shit like that. Like a music teacher who's religious working in a Catholic school in the Northeast, people are not as tribalistic about religion.

[B]

Yeah, they're just like, Jesus is the way.

[A]

If you're into religion, you're into religion. That's fine. It's all kind of one thing. It's not like in the south, where it's like, you know, I'm. He's a Southern Baptist. I'm this kind of Baptist. What are you talking about? Jesus. Let's kill each other. They get real.

[B]

Methodists and Baptists don't even eat the same potato sound.

[A]

No, they get real. I mean, certain kinds of Baptists are different. There's Southern Baptists and there's other kind of Baptists. It's a totally different thing. So up there, they're like. You like Jesus? Yeah, whatever. Me too. Teach the kids some music. It's a little bit different. So sing them a hymn. Yeah, they're less. Less sectist, I guess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the Northeast. So she does all of that. And she's a kindergarten Sunday school teacher as well, so that tells me that she has patience. Yeah, she's teaching Sunday school kids church shit. And in addition to that, like junior choir director getting kids to sing together and director of musicals getting kids to do act together. That's. That's patience. She played keyboards in the church's praise Band and she supervised the kids club for free.

[B]

Is this.

[A]

Some church positions are paid positions, but I bet a lot of these are. A lot of this is voluntary. Probably. That's crazy, because I know my stepmother used to teach Sunday school and communion classes and shit. Yeah. You wouldn't think that about her, right? Not at all. She's very cool. Yeah, she used to teach that stuff. And I know. I don't think she got paid for it. She'd just go do it. Brother was getting ready for communion, so that was that.

[B]

We'll pay you about it later.

[A]

Yeah, there you go.

[B]

We'll pay you about it as soon as we don't have to pay you.

[A]

Yeah, as soon as we don't have to anymore. She gave private piano lessons and voice lessons as well for 30 years, too. Oh, wow. So she is into music and so is ab. These two are together now, according to her brother John. He said, my sister was an easygoing person. She loved children. She had many responsibilities in the church. Choir director in charge of the kids, Sunday school classes, youth choir. Jewel Shermer was a great mom, a loving, doting pastor's wife. She did everything for her family, for her husband, and was considered quite a wonderful person in the community, which, I mean, it sounds like she is.

[B]

Yeah, you have to be.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She's putting up with a bunch of people's kids. So if you're putting up with a bunch of people's kids and you're not like, beating or molesting them, you're an angel in my book. Because I don't want to deal with. I don't want to see anybody's kids for any reason. So, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, especially strangers. Kids. Fuck off.

[B]

No, thanks. Especially not on a day. My day off.

[A]

No. Oh, leave me the fuck. Sunday. Sunday. No, I don't think so. No.

[B]

No way.

[A]

No. Even people. Never mind. I won't get into it. But yeah, I'm not a. I like. I have a couple of nephews and a niece, and they're great. And that's about all. See them every once in a while for a couple hours.

[B]

And then even on my day, I rarely want to see my own Kids.

[A]

That'S a statement right there.

[B]

It's my day off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Go do something. Go do something. Yeah. My kids are adults.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

So it's different. Yeah. Yours are almost there. So close. 1970, he becomes a AB. Becomes a pastor for the United Methodist Churches here.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So this is what he does now. This is 1970. So I think he's feeling himself a little bit. He sings. He's the pastor. I think he's feeling important. I think he's feeling good. To quote Baby Billy, I think he's feeling sexy with that long hair. Yeah, Eli, feeling sexy with that long hair. Now he thinks he's more than he is here. And in 1970. They've only been married two years and he gets caught having an affair already. Ah, this is not good. This is not good.

[B]

No. Two years in.

[A]

This is the problem with jobs that, like, have. Where people look up to you because it attracts. Sometimes it attracts a certain personality. It attracts.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Well, it attracts the personality of people who actually want to help people and want to guide people and stuff like that. But it also attracts the personality of someone who wants to be looked at, wants people to just stare at them and also want people to look up to them. It's kind of like there's two different psychologies of becoming a cop. There's the person who's like, well, there's three, actually. There's one that's like, well, that's a job that has benefits. I have two kids. Fuck it, you know what I mean? And I can retire in 20 years and whatever. Then there is, huh? I'd really like to help people. I'd like to do stuff for society. And then there is. I'd like to be in charge of people and hold weapons on them and be. I'd like to be in control of shit. Those are the three persons.

[B]

Maybe there's some pussy around here.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah. And that's why they do psychological testing for that job. Whereas, pastor, they don't really do psychological testing to see if you are in it for your ego and for parishioner pussy, which is what I think he's.

[B]

Imagine getting into church for pussy.

[A]

Yeah. All you had to do was learn three jokes and go do comedy, and you could have done that instead. It would have been way easier for you. Way easier.

[B]

You don't even have to write them.

[A]

Well, actually, not easier from what I've seen, not easier because whenever I'm thinking about a pastor's speech, I'm like, man, you could just take out of the book and then add your own right there. That's pretty. That's thick. We have to make up our own shit and it has to make sense. And then they all have to laugh at it. And you don't even have to get a reaction from people. You can just tell them shit and they go there, nod. And you can't do that in a stand up club. So no.

[B]

And if you get a half powerful sermon where you can relate some bullshit from that thing into today's life and.

[A]

You can write a joke, the windshield's.

[B]

Bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason like that shit, you'll get blowjobs till the fucking cows come home.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And then you'll get blowjobs from the cows.

[A]

Cows are notoriously horny in this area, by the way. That's actually a thing. So after about two years of being married, this is so this is bad now. Jewel confessed to her family that he had been unfaithful and had strayed. Okay, so that's. She wasn't. I mean, I guess she was embarrassed about it, but she would tell her family and she needed support. So AB will have multiple affairs with women in his congregation.

[B]

What the fuck, AB?

[A]

Not to be trusted with your wife, basically, if you go to church not to be trusted. The bad part is too, this isn't just like, oh, some single lady wandered in and she's attracted to him and they had an affair. These are women that come to him to be in a trusted position. These are women who come to him not only for spiritual guidance, but sometimes for marital counseling.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

So they'll come to him, can you help me with my marriage? And he's like, I can help you. I'll teach a trick or two. Yeah, I'll teach you something. So that is pretty fucked up. That is the ultimate fucked up. That's like supreme. It's like a therapist fucking their client, a doctor. This is a position of trust and this should be the most trusted. If these people actually believe all this, then this should be the most exalted position there is. So I don't get it. One woman later said that she had a years long affair with him after meeting him at church during a vulnerable period in her life.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

So we don't know how many simultaneous affairs he is carrying on.

[B]

Yeah. How many has he got going on?

[A]

He is dipping his stick in half the church at this point. So this woman said they met at a local hotel approximately three times a year for several years. So this isn't like a. This is just like a. Yeah, like a maintenance thing every once in a while.

[B]

He just can't have a dry dick, can he?

[A]

I think he's just like. Well, I'm booked. September, October. I can't. Okay, I got room right before Thanksgiving, but I can't do any earlier than that. You should get married.

[B]

You shouldn't have time to. Shouldn't have enough left.

[A]

No, you shouldn't. Well, I think this guy probably tells his wife he's got to go counsel people. He's going to do some spiritual thing for the church. And then next thing you know, he's at the Howard Johnson's getting it on. So is that what it is?

[B]

He's doing the Howard Johnson?

[A]

Well, that's just later on, there's a Howard Johnson reference. So that's what's in my head is a shit hotel of Howard Johnson's. So they would do all this. She said that it was purely physical. She knew he was married. She came to him for help, and he helped her in a different way. Because the United Methodist Church frowns on divorce, as most churches tend to. They're not real at the forefront of the divorce movement. They're not exactly a spearship there.

[B]

It's crazy, isn't it? Shouldn't they be encouraging? Because then you're getting the revenue of the rental of the church again, I think.

[A]

Well, then they won't allow you to marry in the church again because you're divorced. I don't know if that's every church, but that's a lot of churches. That's why my grandmother never went back to church, because a priest told her that she couldn't get married in the church again because she was already married, and she told him to go fuck himself. And that was the end of that.

[B]

As she should.

[A]

Yeah. And then she would literally go to church and she would steal the body of Christ. She'd steal it?

[B]

Packages of it.

[A]

Yeah. No, she'd steal it.

[B]

Like a whole bunch of it.

[A]

Yeah. And then she'd try to give it to people at Easter like she was a priest. It was crazy. I was like, you stole the body of Christ. Do you understand that? That is. Whatever you're trying to do now is completely negated by the fact that you stole this from a church.

[B]

Was it the little pieces or was it the wafers?

[A]

The wafers. And she'd break pieces off and give it to them.

[B]

Those are pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, well, the taste is irrelevant here.

[B]

They're not bad.

[A]

They're not bad. She could have gotten some Wheat Thins, too. I mean, that's fine.

[B]

I put some cheese and some projude on it.

[A]

I'm saying, what's the difference of what cracker it is? It's a cracker.

[B]

Why don't they do that? If it's the body of Christ, let's put some prosciutt on there and get some taste.

[A]

What's that? Is that the. What part of Christ is that? I don't know.

[B]

That's the flesh.

[A]

That's the flesh of Christ. The pursuit.

[B]

That's the calf of Christ.

[A]

Give me that pursuit. I like it. So, yeah, they don't get divorced, Jewel and AB because of this. So she knows he's carrying on affairs. She knows about all this and she pretty much has to eat it because she doesn't want to go against the church and all that kind of thing. She just keeps teaching and directing choirs and doing Sunday school and everybody knows. Yeah, she's like Henry Hill's wife. She's like Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas. She knows what's going on. She's just not going too R. Rossi, you're a whore. There's a whore living in your building. Superintendent. She's not doing that.

[B]

She's not a.38. To wake him up.

[A]

No. So they would travel all over the place and do music shit, too. That's the other thing. These two, Jewel and AB and the family, too. The kids as well. They traveled to the Rawlinsville camp meeting in Lancaster in 1975, which was a two week long event where families stayed in cabins and attended Bible studies, evening services and prayer sessions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know my nightmare. This sounds like torture. I don't want to pretend this is. What are we doing? I don't want to stay here with these people. Imagine him going cabin to cabin in this environment.

[B]

Yeah. I was just thinking about all the misbehaving he'd be doing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mama told him not to. He did it anyway. That's a fact. So this.

[B]

I mean, everybody told him not to.

[A]

Everyone told him not to. Jesus told him not to. He did it anyway. Now this, too. He can go around and say, well, I have to go counsel this one. And this lady came to me for counseling and what she's supposed to say, you know. So anyway, they had a singing duet, basically, Jewel and AB which. That would be hilarious if it was like a realistic duet where she sings about what's actually going on. That'd be fun.

[B]

Real Stevie Nicks shit.

[A]

Yeah. But no it's not just singing her.

[B]

Fucking silver spring at him.

[A]

No. Like Chapel Roan spilling her guts. This is like Jesus stuff and her pretending that everything's fine. So they made an album together at one point even.

[B]

Oh boy.

[A]

Oh, yeah. The whole family would put on community concerts and do all sorts of shit like that. They'd make the kids sing. Their album in 1974 was called Lord, Bring back the Springtime. What was the name of Was recorded by the Shermers and the record label was Baldwin Sound Productions. I'm sure it was a top notch firm there.

[B]

Springtime. Why is everything awful?

[A]

I want to sing about springtime Lord, bring back the springtime. The record contains 10 tracks. It's all gospel religious songs featuring songs such as Ever gentle, Ever sweet, Ever. Yeah, I want Jesus to walk with me.

[B]

You generally do if you're religious.

[A]

And softly and tenderly, which is about how he makes love to the congregation, to other congregants.

[B]

That's not a good one.

[A]

That's a bad one there.

[B]

Softly and tenderly.

[A]

Softly and tenderly. I don't know what the fuck that's about.

[B]

That's crazy. Did they write that or is that just like a cover of something that's a common religious song?

[A]

I don't know. That's what I mean. I want Jesus to walk with me. Feels like someone would have come up with that title before.

[B]

When everybody knows that your husband cheats on you softly and tenderly. You don't write that song.

[A]

No. You don't let him sing it either. In front of you.

[B]

No.

[A]

So. 1975 to 1978. AB serves as the pastor of the United Methodist churches in the communities of Bainbridge and Marietta in Pennsylvania. He and Jewell would regularly do the camp meetings with their daughters and their son. And even sometimes Jewel's reverend parents tagged along. Ooh, that's a party right there. Imagine that car ride.

[B]

Bring the folks along.

[A]

Oh, boy. So I found a bunch of different newspaper articles about their musical, where they're going to be, and all kinds of shit like that. 1977 Dallas Town Catholics plan buffet. The St. Joseph's Council of Catholic Women scheduled its annual Christmas buffet dinner. Reservations are open to all women. To all women of the church and their female guests. The program will feature the Reverend and Mrs. Arthur Shermer of the First United Methodist Church of Marietta. The Shermers will present a program of old and unusual music. What does that mean?

[B]

AB Is just coming to sing to only the wives.

[A]

Just gonna say so. This is a room full of women and Ab crooning softly, tenderly to them. This is gonna be. Wow. He's gonna be pockets full of phone numbers when he leaves. That bad boy trying to slam.

[B]

Trying to smash in the confessional.

[A]

And. What is an old and unusual music? What is unusual?

[B]

Well, I mean, this also sounds unusual. All religious music.

[A]

Yeah, this all sounds unusual. Not all. Not all.

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Listen to, like, fucking Al Green sing about Jesus. That shit you feel I don't give a fuck about. I'm not religious at all. But, man, does that shit sound good. Marvin Gaye singing about Jesus. Like, fuck, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Is it. Do they just reference him, or is it a. That's their Alligator all the time song.

[A]

They're like gospel songs, but the way they sing them. They sing them like Al Green and Marvin Gaye or whoever. Or even fucking, like, hillbilly shit, like, again. Bring up gemstones again. The fucking, you know, do dudes on a banjo. That shit's catchy as fuck. I don't care what they're singing about, but I don't listen to that shit. But, I mean, if it's good, I'll listen to it. It's just the Jesus part of it.

[B]

Every religious song I've heard, apart from Hallelujah or some Christmas songs. Yeah, you can all get down with my rump bum.

[A]

My favorite Christmas songs are all the religious ones. Even though I don't believe. They're all great. They're all great. Oh, Holy Night's the best Christmas song. It's the most religious there is. The most religious song ever written.

[B]

The other ones are just. They never rhyme.

[A]

No, no, no. They're not like that.

[B]

The lyrics are so bad.

[A]

Not this kind of shit, like, choir shit. I'm talking.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

Marvin Gaye singing about Jesus is a whole other thing. I mean, he's got, like. He's got soul into it, and it's. It's Marvin Gaye, for Christ's sake. It's a total.

[B]

Making it relatable.

[A]

Yeah. It sounds like it could be about a woman you could replace Jesus for, you know, Denise, and it would be fine. You know what I mean? You go, all right. Yeah. Yeah. I love you.

[B]

Finger. Fuck Jesus till the cows come.

[A]

I feel Jesus's spirit through my fingers inside of him. Oh, no.

[B]

I'm getting Jesus ass.

[A]

Let's. Hold on. Wait. I got to write a new line there. That's for the ladies. So after the heat, United Methodist Conference transfers A.B. now to the Bethany United Methodist Church. In 1978, that's when the family moves to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, which is where they were when the Jewel tragedy happened. So his career is on the upswing, which I don't understand how. Because everyone has to know what he's up to.

[B]

There's this thing, James, in this whole. Forgiveness is fucking. This is everything.

[A]

They don't really do that, though. This isn't Catholicism, where you just go, say what you did and it's forgiven. Jesus might forgive you, but these people aren't gonna. You know what I'm saying? That's the way church is. Jesus might forgive you, but we'll fucking remember that shit and judge you forever if you're slightly different.

[B]

If he's still the pastor, maybe they don't.

[A]

The pastor should be twice as fucking. The pastor should.

[B]

I don't disagree.

[A]

Spotless. He should be Christ. Like. Right.

[B]

I'm saying, in the event he's not, perhaps that they're. They relate even harder because how would.

[A]

You listen to that guy now you're full of shit. Don't tell me what to do.

[B]

What if they're doing it? What if you're doing it, too?

[A]

From row four? What are you talking about?

[B]

You know what I mean? What if all these dudes are trying to do the same shit?

[A]

I feel like that goes against literally everything that they're doing.

[B]

Yeah, I don't disagree, but the amount of people that cheat on their spouse is outrageous.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. But if they're fucking the congregation, too, that's even worse. Like, that's crazy. That's crazy. But he's a great speaker, and I heard him sing, and he's got like a. It's almost like opera. Like, he sounds like Jim Neighbors singing Christmas songs where he's like, oh, really? He sings like that? You know what I mean?

[B]

I don't like that.

[A]

I don't either. It's ridiculous. You're like, what are you doing? You just said, I'm gonna make a Christmas album.

[B]

What is this?

[A]

Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? That's not singing. I can do that. That's terrible.

[B]

Toby Gohmer, knock it off.

[A]

This is terrible shit. What are you doing? But he's charismatic. He's magnetic. People love him. People say it feels like God was speaking to you from this man. Like he had passion. Yeah. He's a showman. That's why he's getting pussy left and right. He's a showman. Yeah. He should have just tried to be in a band and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Just. You could have got around all this. But he needed to be also, you Know a respectable guy. One of his friends and associates named Darrell Cox said over from the Cox outfit there. Sure, sure. It's requiring small, small engines. He said that AB was our friend, our confidant. He was just an all around good guy. And then he said, right, honey? Hey, where's my wife?

[B]

Hey, where'd my wife go?

[A]

Hold on a second. I hear bones. Where's that coming from? Now this. He would eventually, by the way, AB Serve as the chaplain of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. So the goddamn legislature of the state of Pennsylvania.

[B]

Okay, that's more fitting.

[A]

That's the environment he should be in.

[B]

That's what he should be in.

[A]

Perfect. Perfect mixture of setting, religion and scumbag shit.

[B]

It's perfect.

[A]

It's perfect. So, 1984, I found an ad for the annual banquet. The Emmanuel Brethren in Christ Church of Cleona held its annual mother Daughter banquet recently. He's got a type of. Where he wants to go.

[B]

How does he get these gigs?

[A]

He's like, hey, listen, listen. I have a bonding experience for you and your daughter to take part in. Jesus Christ.

[B]

This is unbelievable. Everybody knows what he does, and they still keep bringing. For women's conferences.

[A]

He sings like an angel. Jimmy. It's okay. It's fine. It's totally fine. Wow. The Reverend Arthur Shermer and his family from Bethany United Methodist Church presented a program of vocal music and a puppet show. A pup. Where the fuck did that come from?

[B]

What is that about?

[A]

I don't know. Before it was unusual music. Now there's a puppet somewhere. I don't know who does that. This is really turning like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker style here. Her with her Sally Moppet and all that shit.

[B]

Very uncomfortable.

[A]

Real weird. Lewis Beard led devotionals and dinner was served by the men of Emanuel's couples class. Men of Emanuel's couples class. Okay, here's 1984. Another. This is from the Daily News. The guest entertainer was the Reverend Arthur Shermer. He entertained by singing new Christmas carols, one of which was written by his wife. Oh, my God. Which is actually all I want for Christmas is you. Mariah Carey stole it. That bitch.

[B]

I knew it.

[A]

Nobody needs new Christmas songs, by the way. We have plenty. Stop writing Christmas songs. There's so many.

[B]

So many.

[A]

It's been, what, three decades since a decent one has come out? Maybe four decades. Probably five.

[B]

I don't know when the last one that came out that was any good was.

[A]

To me, Christmas songs are all 1970 and before, you know what I mean? They're either like the Holy Nights and all that, or it's like Brenda Lee or whatever. I don't want to hear from New Kids on the Block about Christmas at all.

[B]

No. And I don't want to hear Santa Claus coming to town ever again.

[A]

No, I never want to hear Santa Claus. I don't want to hear that at all. Bruce Springsteen trying to fucking get his phlegm up while singing about Santa Clauses. I don't know. I like Bruce Springsteen, but that song is particularly bad. Not good. Not good at all. So his wife's new Christmas song was entitled Christmas is Plural or Christmas. I was gonna say, not like Charlie Murphy saying darkness is not that. This is Christmas.

[B]

For Christmases is Christmas. And it also is.

[A]

It is this and it is that. And it ended with a Christmas sermonette, which I would assume is a woman's sermon. It's a mini sermon, obviously, but yeah.

[B]

Sermonette 1 capable for women to understand.

[A]

Yeah. You know how the church is. The meeting close. God, that would sound awful. The meeting closed by the group singing Christmas carols with Betty Rhine at the piano and Reverend Shermer leading the songs.

[B]

Oh, get a boy.

[A]

Get in there. 1985. Their daughter Julie wins a contest.

[B]

What'd she do?

[A]

Julie Shermer wins silver medal speech contest. And they say Julie Shermer, daughter of the Reverend and Mrs. Arthur Shermer. I mean, they go right to that shit. Was chosen as the winner in a silver medal speech contest held in the Bunker Hill EC Church. She's 13 years old, sings with the Shermer Family Program and is a student at Cedar Crest Middle School where she's in the band and chorus. She now eligible to compete in a gold medal contest. Her speech was entitled A Girl's Ambition. And I don't know what that is in this particular ambition to be married to a preacher who bangs half the congregation? I hope not. Other contestants.

[B]

Ambition to get married and be obedient.

[A]

Yeah, I guess so. So there's a lot of other people. She beat out a bunch of people. 1986. AB is a contest winner.

[B]

What is this?

[A]

He is the Dick Slinginist pastor in the Northeast. It's a very prestigious award. He won the gold medal. No, there's one here from the Daily News. Clergyman identifies quote. Who is he? A little detective work paid off for a Lebanon clergyman. Wednesday afternoon, the Rev. Arthur B. Shermer won $131 by correctly identifying the man whose photo has appeared recently in the Daily News. Who is he? Contest. So they put a picture in the paper and you I guess write in or call in or whatever and say who you think it is.

[B]

And then you went on.

[A]

Yeah, this is before reverse Google image search. So difficult. Schirmer correctly deduced that the man is Theodore Pistek, who won an Oscar for the costumes he designed for the film Amadeus. How the fuck does he know that?

[B]

He knows the.

[A]

He recognizes the costume designer from Amadeus.

[B]

That is very, very specific. Yeah, incredibly specific. You can recognize him on sight.

[A]

Wow. I guess if you're a music guy, I could see why you'd like the movie Amadeus. Yeah, that makes sense. But to know what the costume guy looks like.

[B]

Costume designer's face on site, they said.

[A]

The clue under Pisstech's photo was in the February 27th edition of the newspaper was he would be a useful person to have around at Halloween. He won an Oscar, but not for acting. So Shermer said that clue is what did it for him. He said, looking at the clue about Halloween, I thought he must have something to do with makeup or costumes. Then because of the clue about the Oscar, I decided to call the library of the Academy of Motion Picture Art. That cost him money back then. To call that. Yeah, that cost him money.

[B]

That's a call from PA to la.

[A]

Yup. And Sciences. To get more information, they gave me names of Oscar winners fitting this category. From then on, it was just a process of elimination. Getting the answer was just a phone call away. Shermer bought four newspapers until he hit pay dirt. He says he has won the who is he? Contest two other times. In 1968 and a few years ago. The first time he won about 90. The second time about 140. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you how to learn languages better and easier with Rosetta Stone.

[B]

Rosetta Stone.com that's right.

[A]

You want to learning a new language. It's one of those skills that stays with you and it's really rewarding once you start hearing yourself understand and speak it naturally. And if you can actually communicate with someone speaking that language, it's awesome. And Rosetta Stone makes it simple to get started and easy to keep it going. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you truly pick up your new language naturally. No memorizing random vocabulary lists and feeling lost and not knowing what you're doing. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm gonna get on this because I would really like to speak like proper Italian. That would be cool. That would be cool. My older relative slang wouldn't understand me at all because it's whatever, you know. No, not just whatever. From my grandmother's village in the 30s that language would be. Because that's what I know. So I would love to know it well. And I think Rosetta Stone is the way to do it. They even have a thing that helps you with your pronunciation. It's called true accent, which is also very important because you know, you hear someone with an off accent, you're like, that's not right. So they are. They have over 30 years experience. They have millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese and more. Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. You can learn faster, you retain longer. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. And you can sound more natural with that true accent, too. That really, really helps. It gives you real time feedback on pronunciation. Like, no, that wasn't quite right. You want to hit this syllable a little more. It's really good here. You're gonna love it. And the lifetime membership gives you all 25 languages forever. Learn one now, pick another one next year, no extra cost. Get in there and do it. You can do it. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Small Town Murder listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's amazing. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit www.Rosettastone.com Smalltown Murder to get started and claim your 50% off today. That's Rosettastone.com SmalltownMurder and start learning today.

[B]

Now back to the show.

[A]

Hey, everybody, Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you the best gift to give anyone at any time with aura frames.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Now back to the show.

[A]

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[B]

Now back to the show.

[A]

She's got a second career in identifying people in the Daily News.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

1988, here we go. The Salem United Methodist Church of Mannheim will host a sacred concert. Sacred and this guy in the same sentence is pretty ridiculous. By the Reverend Arthur Shermer family Sunday at 7pm the program will consist of solos, duets and other selections by the five member family. Okay, 1994. Here is Reverend and Mrs. Arthur Shermer and it's Sunday, November 13th, 10:30am and 7:00pm and it's a picture of them like they went to Olin Mills or something and got their photo taken.

[B]

She's standing over his shoulder, he's over.

[A]

Her shoulder and he's got his hand on her shoulder and she's reaching up and holding his hand. You know what I mean? It's that picture where they look like they're hiding. Like there's like a terrorist about to telling them to do something and they're holding up together.

[B]

It also shows a lot of control, that picture. You know what I mean?

[A]

Well, that shows. Yeah, that's kind of stand by your man pose there. He's behind me and I'm okay with him. And that's a. Yeah, I mean I think that's what the Christian.

[B]

He's a salsa event and I appreciate him.

[A]

I love him. So April 23, 1999 is the event where poor Jewel, who's really, I mean think about now that we've filled in the last 30 years, what she's gone.

[B]

Through is she's been going through it ab took a jog, came home and found her with the shop vac wrapped around her ankle.

[A]

Wrapped around her ankle. 2:15pm April 23, 1999. And he doesn't ride in the ambulance with her, which Is so fucking weird.

[B]

And she died.

[A]

She dies. Now. They said that it's really strange. Jewel's family, they get to the hospital before she dies. Cause she's on life support. And I guess her brother John said he was struck by what he saw. He said, quote, when you look at my sister lying in that hospital bed, I don't believe there was one spot on her face or head that wasn't black and blue. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Because £750 of force.

[A]

Yeah. My first words to my father were, something's not right here. Because there was just too much trauma to the head and face from falling down six steps. No.

[B]

Yeah. Your face doesn't hit all six of them. Because even if it did five feet tall, those are a foot apart.

[A]

Even if she bounced off every one, it still wouldn't cause this kind of damage. Like, this is crazy. And there's not enough height for her to fall and land directly on her head. And to have that kind of force.

[B]

Something's weird.

[A]

Now they also. John, Jewel's brother John also said that he didn't. Wasn't a big fan of AB's demeanor at the hospital either. No. He said Shermer's demeanor at the hospital was like he was at a Sunday school picnic. He was sitting with his daughters and some other people from the church and they were laughing and joking and carrying on. Now, I get that you have kids and you're trying to. But they're not little kids. That's the thing. It's not like if you had a five year old and a four year old. Yeah, you try to, hey, everything's fine. But these are not small children. Julie was 13, 15 years ago. She's almost 30 years old at this point.

[B]

She's also, at this point, fighting for her life. She's not dead.

[A]

And he's just giggling, giggling. So John said to the point that my father leaned over and said to me, you know, for a guy who has a wife laying there dying, he doesn't seem too overly concerned or distraught, which I think anybody would say. So AB decided to take Jewel off life support because it's up to him. He's the husband. Yeah, it's fucked up. Yeah. She wasn't gonna regain consciousness. So.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, and it doesn't. Doesn't happen right now.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

When they take people off life support, it takes so long.

[A]

We gonna let her sit there forever. You're gonna fucking Terri Schiavo. This poor woman, Let her go. You know what I mean? She's there, not gonna Recover. It's sad, you know. So he declined an autopsy, which I don't know how he could decline an autopsy. It shouldn't be up to him.

[B]

Nah, I'm good.

[A]

I'm all right. Let's just call it an accident and move on. Seems like I don't know about that. Now, the thing is, though, John Jewel's sister had already called law enforcement. Jewel's brother or Jewel's brother. Yeah, I'm sorry. Jewel's brother was suspicious and he already called law enforcement and said, I'd like you guys to at least look into this because this doesn't look right to me. Yeah. So she dies on April 24, 1999, at age 50. This poor woman, she'd been getting ready, her students ready for a concert at Our lady of the Valley that she'll never get to see. It's very sad. So her body is taken away for an actual autopsy, regardless of what AB said. Now, they think she may have had. The medical theory is she had a heart attack, then fell down the stairs. £750 of force, that's the wild part. But the problem is when the medical examiner gets the body, the first thing he'd like to look at is the heart to see if that's what happened. They open her up, she has no heart. There's no heart in her chest. She's an organ donor. They've already taken her heart for somebody else.

[B]

Oh, that's fucked up.

[A]

So, I mean, great for the person who's getting a heart, but not so good for the medical examiner who would.

[B]

Love to do an autopsy they can harvest like that.

[A]

They have to do it immediately.

[B]

Yeah, I guess they have to because it'll be dead. Tissue's dead tissue. It doesn't pop anymore.

[A]

That's right. Not only that, it had already been transplanted into somebody, so it's now in someone else's chest. So it's not like you can say, call it back and put it on a tray in front of me. It's in a person's body at this point, it's set.

[B]

It is fascinating how fast they. I got in a car accident. The last car accident I got in, somebody rear ended me. Another car pulled up within three minutes. The lady that hit me was carrying live organs. Somebody like got in her backseat, snatched shit out and then took off. I was like, I have. It was the craziest thing.

[A]

Not live organs, but things of that nature when I was a process server. Blood, shit and stuff like that. And yeah, that's if you have any kind of delay, you have to get it.

[B]

You gotta go now.

[A]

And an organ would be 10 times worse. I mean, that's gotta go now. Now, Now. Fascinating. Which is always a good source of comedy whenever they use, like Reno911 or something. When there's an organ and you have to get it there and they leave it on top of the car and drive away and cooler falls off. So the cardiologist's theory about a heart attack couldn't be tested. So they were like, what do we do here? So the doctor, Dr. Ross. And he'll come up later, he tracked down medical slides of Juul's heart tissue.

[B]

Oh, while he was. Okay. Yeah. You gotta have it out, right?

[A]

Yeah, I guess. When they take it out. So this is Dr. Wayne Ross. He said her heart was healthy. When I examined it under the microscope, it showed no evidence of a heart attack. I clearly determined that Jule Shermer did not have a heart attack. It was clear as day.

[B]

I put that thing in another person. It's still beaten.

[A]

It's still beaten. Well, he had tissue from it to look at. And also if it's still working and somebody else, it's probably good.

[B]

Still going.

[A]

Still going.

[B]

It's fine.

[A]

So he conducted the autopsy, found no signs of heart disease, despite a cardiologist at the hospital suggesting that Juul might have had a heart attack that caused her to fall. Cause that's what. Whatever you do, you assume that's what happened to them. I'm a cardiologist. I think he must have had a heart attack and fell down. Cause that's what I see all the time, is heart attacks. So I would think that's what you think. Now, the issue here is, though, the fall. Dr. Ross discovers Juul had 14 areas of impact on her head, six stairs. 14 areas of impact. Yeah.

[B]

She hit each one several times, twice.

[A]

And then a couple more for good measure.

[B]

Those stairs kick the shit out of me.

[A]

That is. I mean, even if you cartwheel tumbled down them, you still didn't hit your head that many times. And that's.

[B]

You got to get up and do it again.

[A]

Yeah. This is multiple skull fractures.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, the issue is, and it could still be possible falling down stairs. You never know. But then when he examines the rest of her, there is nothing else wrong with her. She has nothing anywhere else on her body but her head. No broken ribs, no pelvic fractures, no wrist. And they said no broken wrists or hands from trying to protect yourself, which is what people do. Just a few minor scrapes and bruises to her torso and arms, some in the shape of a handprint.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Now they were also going, well, we don't know if that's the paramedics trying to help her. That could be that too. Anyway, they said that if you fall down a flat, everybody's fallen down. Some initial bit of something, you put your hands out, you definitely try to break your fall for sure.

[B]

Feel your hands are fucked up.

[A]

Yeah. So Dr. Ross classifies the cause of death as undetermined, which is not accidental. And it's not homicide. It's undetermined. So that means we don't know shit.

[B]

There's only four four ways, right?

[A]

I believe so, yeah.

[B]

Natural homicide, undetermined.

[A]

Accidental suicide or accidental accident. Yeah, or an accident. I mean, that's. So he tells the cops. I would look into this further if I were you guys. You know, if I was that kind investigating kind of guy. Yeah, If I was doing some constabulatory shit right now, I'd do this.

[B]

If it was my forte, I would be investigating.

[A]

The cops said, thanks for the tip, and they did nothing.

[B]

That's what we do. No, thanks.

[A]

No, thank you. We're good.

[B]

We'd rather not.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy. So the cops decide we're not investigating this further. It was an accident. It was an accident. He sings like a fucking angel, and my wife says, he's a wonderful guy. So that's what the cop said. Yeah, my wife said, he's great. He really, really does that. So a couple days later, John, Jewel's sister, heads over to Jewel's brother. Why do I keep calling him sister? I don't know why he's doing that. Jewel's brother John, it's his sister, Jewel. That's what I want to say. That's. It's fucking me up. Now he goes over to the house here, which I believe is like in the church property. It's like a house connected to it.

[B]

Yeah, I know that house because they.

[A]

Call it the parsonage, which I believe would be that I think the pastor.

[B]

Gets to stay there. Sometimes they donate it to somebody in the community that's like under. That needs it.

[A]

A tornado took their house down or something. Yeah.

[B]

Or she just. They just can't get it together.

[A]

Somebody. Yeah, somebody with four kids.

[B]

My aunt is that lady and a lot of community, really.

[A]

She's the one staying at the thing.

[B]

They give her a lot of homes.

[A]

Oh, I don't know if she was giving the homes out or taking them in.

[B]

She's gotten a lot of homes in the church parking lot.

[A]

Very nice. So he came over a couple days after this all happened to look at where it happened. He just wanted to see. And what he finds is there's no blood anymore.

[B]

It's already cleaned up.

[A]

It's completely cleaned up from the basement. Walls and floor and everything like that. Gone. And the walls, everything. Now he said, what the fuck? Here. What happened in the blood? I'm sure he said it in a more Jesusy way, but what the fuck is the general gist?

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

Ab said paramedics cleaned it, which is hilarious. They do not a will not clean anything that was there to begin with. And they won't even clean up their own mess. Are you kidding me?

[B]

Oh, they will leave so much more mess than that murder.

[A]

Yeah, that's what they do because they're concerned, you know, their primary concern is save this person's life, not make sure to clean up. Does anybody bring a scarlet bag?

[B]

Would you?

[A]

Yeah. Who's got a big fucking stick with a poker on it? I can clean our stuff up. They don't care at all. So they would certainly not do crime scene.

[B]

No way.

[A]

That is 100% on you. They have businesses, you can call that do that shit so you don't have to clean up your own dead wives, blood and brains off of things. So anyway, one of the paramedics later said that we don't do that like they asked him. They said our job is to help the patient, not to destroy evidence or really affect the scene in any way. We're just trying to save a person. So it had to be Ab that cleaned it up himself. So they think that he cleaned up the blood while she was en route to the hospital, then showed up at the hospital that way there was an investigation. When they came later, it's all cleaned up already. Nothing you can do about it.

[B]

You can't do that.

[A]

No. He.

[B]

That shows tampered with a crime scene.

[A]

No, that's. Yeah. And it's all very nebulous because it's an accident. And the paramedics came and took her. So it's not really a crime scene at this moment.

[B]

Who's to say how you grieve that shit's so personal.

[A]

You want to clean. You don't want her to. What if she. If she gets better? She's gonna come home and see her blood all over the place? What if the kids. She's gonna remember. Yeah. Either way, that's what happened. She's dead now and everybody's very suspicious, especially her Family is very suspicious of AB so 2000, the next year, he's transferred again, which happens a lot in the church.

[B]

Apparently not just the Catholic one.

[A]

No, he's moved. They move all over the place. He moved to the Pocono Township in Monroe county and became the pastor of Reeder's United Methodist Church. Reeders is a small town inside Jackson Township. These townships have little towns in them, but it's all under the township.

[B]

And now he's a single fella. Not just single, James.

[A]

Oh, no. A widow. A widow. Think about that. My wife, who, by the way, sang like a fucking angel that broadcast tragic death. Yeah, I've been just mourning. Tears coming. I had to transfer. It just reminded me of her too much to be there. It just. Everywhere I looked, all I saw was my wife. He is gonna have. The pews are gonna be dripping when he gets done.

[B]

All she needed was wings and a harp. She already had the voice.

[A]

That's it. They're gonna have to hand out towels to ladies as they come in to fucking put under them.

[B]

Ladies are gonna sit down, putting on chapstick. Every day.

[A]

Every day. So there he is, and he meets a lady. Shocking. Are you surprised? The first day, I'm sure he meets Betty Jean Scherzer. S C H E R Z E R Scherzer. She's born in 1952, so she's a couple years younger than him, but in the ballpark. She's from Hershey, Pennsylvania, where the chocolate is. She's known as a very kind, generous woman who gets involved with everything. Charitable shit, church stuff. She joined the Pleasant Valley Ecumenical Network, which helps struggling families with food and clothing and essentials like that. So she's a very nice woman. Again, charitable. Charitable kind. This is what I thought, like, as a kid growing up, you go, that's what religion is supposed to be, right? They're kind, they're charitable and all that. Not hateful and shit like some of them. Now, not everybody. There's some religious people who are just like this. This is what they're like.

[B]

Well, that one with the picket signs is crazy. That's people Trace like it.

[A]

All those people. I call them every horrible name I can think of when I see them.

[B]

They're the worst.

[A]

I hope you're offended because I'm offended by your fucking presence in this world. So fuck you.

[B]

Your general existence drives me. Fucking baddie.

[A]

It drives me crazy. It's all I can do to keep the car on the road. So I'm gonna yell shit at you now, Betty. Very Kind, though. That's what she's all about. That's the main thing. Everyone's, oh, sweetest lady on the face of the earth, Betty. Now, Betty's son said that he first met Shermer in 2001 when his mother was dating him. In the beginning, he said that Ab had told him his first wife, Jula, died of cancer. So he's lying about.

[B]

Why would he do that?

[A]

Because that sounds way more sad.

[B]

Does it?

[A]

It's not suspicious. You couldn't have given her cancer if she fell down the steps. Even if it's totally cleared, you go, everybody's suspicious like that. Whereas cancer.

[B]

She fell down the steps, did she?

[A]

Yeah. I don't know everything. If he says one thing that's a little off, you're like, I don't think his wife fell down the steps. Like you would absolutely do that. Whereas cancer, you just go, oh, God. Jesus. It's cancer.

[B]

Jesus. Fuck.

[A]

I don't know anybody who doesn't know somebody who's died of cancer. It's a horrible thing. So, yeah. Jesus Christ.

[B]

And I hope you go get your ass checked soon, James.

[A]

Yeah, we all should be checking our asses. Yeah.

[B]

Between this guy, I'm just so sad about all of the Catherine o' Hara and I didn't know that fucking guy. But no, two in a week is crazy. You got to go get checked. Please do.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

I'm going this year.

[A]

I was going to say, why me? Why is it just me? What did I do?

[B]

Cause I need you.

[A]

We need each other.

[B]

I can't do this without you.

[A]

We need each other. Let's go hand in hand to get our asses checked. What do you say?

[B]

I'll go with you.

[A]

Let's go together. We'll get a toilet for two. For the up to it days when we have to shit ourselves senseless, we'll hold hands.

[B]

It'll be very, very two cameras. You watch mine, I'll watch yours.

[A]

Beautiful. I'm in. I'm fucking in, man. Oh, God. So June 1st, 2001, Betty and Ab get married.

[B]

Great.

[A]

That is quick. Married within two years of his wife's death, he's married, which could look like he's just trying to move on and start over and understandable for people.

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes you replace them real fast because you're lonely. The void is so big.

[A]

Yeah. Some people need to be with somebody. They just have to. They don't like being alone. And his daughters, Amy and Julie, said they were really relieved that their dad found someone new because they were worried about him. They're adults now and everything. Amy said they just seem like they were best friends. It really seemed like they had this closeness. Yeah. Shermer here, Ab described Betty as his best friend to his daughter. She's my best friend. We just hang out.

[B]

Well, that's what it looks like.

[A]

Yeah. And Julie said it was a relief to know that he had someone he could talk to and share with and just hang out with. She's just happy that he's out of her hair, basically. He's not going to be calling me every day. So Betty's sisters Tina and Sandy, we'll talk about them plenty of as we go here. Thought he was a wonderful guy and a great match for the sister, too. Even Betty's mother, Jean, was thrilled with this arrangement. Everybody was thrilled. Thrilled. Couldn't have been better.

[B]

They love him.

[A]

Yeah. Julie said she was just happy that he had someone to hang out with. Now Betty's sister Sandy said, I heard pastor, so I was happy for her. That meant he's upstanding in her mind. Yeah. The other sister said the pastor, the nice guy, the everything. He just seemed like he was perfect for her. And then Jean, Betty's mother, said he was so nice. We just didn't think there was anybody better than him. He sings like an angel. He's nice. You can't beat it here. And yeah, so I found their wedding announcement as well.

[B]

Got one there, too.

[A]

Doesn't say anything about any French fashion accessories, whatever the fuck it was. Ten of those. No peau de toile.

[B]

What was it called?

[A]

Peu de soi, I believe.

[B]

Poud A sound.

[A]

So enter the Musantes family. I believe that's how you pronounce it. M U, S A N, T E S. And I apologize if I'm saying that wrong.

[B]

Musantes.

[A]

Musantes. Musantes. It depends on where you are and what part of the country you're in, what the origin of it is. This is Joseph and Cindy. Now, Joe Musante is a. He's a carpenter and he struggles with alcoholism for years and years and years. He's had a hard road.

[B]

A lot of us do.

[A]

He's at a hard road here. He's a blue collar guy, works with his hands and he comes home, he wants some drinks. And he brought his family to the Readers United Methodist Church, hoping that faith would help him overcome his addiction, literally. He's tried everything he said and he thought maybe the church will do it for me. I'm a carpenter.

[B]

So is J.C. that's what I mean.

[A]

Fuck it. And this is maybe last resort for him. Maybe he's tried this and that and AA and this one and that. And he's like, well, maybe the church will do it. I don't know. So he throws himself into the church and I mean into the worship and into helping around the church too. Because he's a carpenter.

[B]

He could build some shit. Yeah.

[A]

One thing churches will do is they'll find out what you do. And if you can do it for them for free, can you do what you do for money for free for us, Please? Is that possible? That is one thing they are real good at.

[B]

Oh boy, oh boy. Can you do us a charitable?

[A]

Yeah. We've told so many stories like that where they immediately put people to work. And he's doing construction around the church. He's repairing the building. He's creating things and pieces. He even built a special desk for Ab's office. A beautiful desk. Big wooden, handmade fucking desk.

[B]

Really?

[A]

So this guy is not just a framer or a roofer. This guy does finish carpentry and shit like this. Carvings. He's skilled.

[B]

Yeah. Ornate.

[A]

Yeah. To make a desk you have to have a lot of skill. That's a.

[B]

That ain't easy.

[A]

It's different now. Joe has a family as well. His wife's name is Cindy Cynthia Mora. Mustaine or Musante Mustaine. Not Dave's wife. She was the church secretary. And she became Ab's personal assistant as well. Yeah, so he's doing all repairs. Joe and his wife is also working in the church, being the pastor's assistant, being a secretary. You see where this is going?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

An affair starts pretty quickly between Ab and Cindy here.

[B]

How's he do it?

[A]

Dude, I don't understand it. He's not even a young man anymore. You know what I mean? He's in a stage.

[B]

Yeah, but it's more like. I mean, handsome, charismatic, those are all things. But when it directly conflicts with what you do, how the fuck do you pull it off?

[A]

I don't understand why you pull it off. Nevermind how I see how. I don't get why. What are you gaining from this? You know what I mean? I get what you're gaining. You're gaining. Plowing a younger woman, I understand, but this could fuck my entire life up. I'm gonna do it anyway. Is a weird thought.

[B]

Closed mouths don't get fed is what I'm told.

[A]

But his mouth is never closed, Jimmy. Whether he's singing or fucking, it's.

[B]

Nobody's mouth is ever closed. This Guy is always in it.

[A]

It is, he is so. And it was kind of everybody knew about it in town sort of because he's her, she's his assistant. So you know, they should be doing stuff together. If you see them at lunch together, that's not a big deal because they work together. Why wouldn't they be together? But they had. There's a lot of like explicit text messages exchanged between the two of them. Their calls are quite frequent. They're always calling each other which again, do we have texts again? No, we have some email quotes and stuff like that. Now AB gave her a nickname, CD which I don't understand because that doesn't. That's not her. I don't know why Cindy.

[B]

Cd, what's her last name?

[A]

Musante. And it was Moira or something is her maiden name. So I don't understand where that comes from. But CD he called her. According to Cindy, they were in love. They were in love. Now he's been married like a year, like this is crazy. Now both of their spouses are kind of in the way at this point, as you might imagine. So now Cindy, why she's having an affair, you might wonder.

[B]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

We know why AB is. He can't help it. He's just.

[B]

It's his thing.

[A]

That's what he does.

[B]

Is she exhausted with her alcoholic husband?

[A]

Yeah. She said that they'd been married for 18 years and he was an alcoholic and she just had had enough. She said that she began as the personal secretary and it went from there. Now Cindy's story of how this came to be was that August 3rd, 2008. Okay, yeah, as we'll go through here, August 3rd, 2008 was because the affair takes place in 2008. 2009, this was his 50th birthday. This was her husband's 50th birthday.

[B]

Oh boy, did he get drunk and ruin it.

[A]

Well, the couple's two children, then 16 year old Samantha, who'll come up quite a BIT, and their 10 year old at the time, boy were out of the house that morning. So Cindy went to the grocery store to go shopping while Joe sat at home and he drank.

[B]

It's my birthday, boss.

[A]

Yeah, so she said. That was pretty much it for me. I was done. She said within a few weeks she realized that she loved A.B. and that's when all the emails and texts and the affair starts here in 2008. So that's what's going on now. This is all fine and dandy if you can get away with It, I guess. But the problem is people know about this shit. And the first person to really find out definitely what the truth was was 16 year old Samantha, Cindy's daughter.

[B]

Oh no.

[A]

This poor kid. Man, this is brutal.

[B]

I mean there's only so many times you can have somebody crawl into bed next to you, just reeking of obvious drunk booze.

[A]

I get that, Cindy, whatever. Not wanting to be in a marriage, that's fine, but.

[B]

But he woke up on his birthday.

[A]

Don't fuck the pastor. That's not how you do it, I guess. And she said not only mad, that was it, that was over for her. I guess maybe they were gonna have a celebration. He was too drunk. I don't know how it was, but either way. Samantha found explicit text messages on her mother's phone between them.

[B]

Oh boy.

[A]

Which is the last thing a 16 year old wants to see is explicit text messages between their mother and a pastor. That's the grossest thing you could fucking possibly think of.

[B]

I mean it's the grossest to see your mom being filthy. But then with this is with the pastor.

[A]

Oh, she is like, please, fucking men in black me, please just wipe my brain. I don't want to remember. I don't want to remember kindergarten. I don't want to remember anything. Just wipe me out.

[B]

Yeah. I never want to imagine my mom.

[A]

Saying pussy ever start from scratch, especially her pussy.

[B]

In reference to.

[A]

And these messages also how much he loved her, how nice she looked all the time. And we couldn't wait to see her and get with her and all this type of shit.

[B]

Those are pretty innocent.

[A]

And then more graphic. Yeah. And so Samantha said, how could my mom ever do something like this to our family? She just didn't get it. So she gets involved. Samantha, which is a 16 year old should certainly I feel bad for her because she doesn't know what else to do. And she's trying to.

[B]

Yeah, but that's a choice.

[A]

She's trying to save her family is her goal. And I completely under. Especially at 16, you don't sit back and go, well, let me think of the ramifications of the. You go, I don't want my mom and dad to get divorced. I want them to be together. Because you're 16. So she had been like really tight with her mom, like she said, best friends with her mom. She said she was my best friend. She took me to all the horse shows and she loved horses just as much as I did. I kind of felt betrayed that I found something like this out. Understandable. So she decides to get involved. They said she was asked later on, Samantha, were they that explicit, the text messages that you knew what was going on. And she said there was no doubt it wasn't quote I love you in Christ type of text messages. Not something you'd expect your employer to be sending you. I love you. It wasn't I love you in Christ. I'm going to tag the Christ out of you when I see you later. I'm going to pound the Christ out of you when I see you. Really? Really.

[B]

I'm going to fuck the Christ out.

[A]

Of you out of you. That's more like probably closer to what it is rather than I love you in Christ.

[B]

I love you in Christ. It wasn't I love you in Christ.

[A]

That's a great line by the way, Samantha. That's very funny. She's funny. I like her. So she said fuck. She knew if her dad found out it would be probably spiral him even worse now you think he's an alcoholic now? Wait till he finds out his wife's banging the pastor who he made a desk for. Yeah, how do you think that's gonna.

[B]

If he bent her over that I swear to Christ.

[A]

Oh man. So she said my dad struggled with alcoholism his entire life. He finally decided he had to get it together so he started going to church. So he's like. She said I gotta fix this. So what she does is she creates a fake email account Samantha under the name of Jean Smith and she is.

[B]

Going to catfish people.

[A]

Yes, she sent an anonymous message to AB begging him to end the affair. Oh, this was sent 9-26-2008 from an alias here with the subject line A word of caution. This is Gene.

[B]

Smile, I know what you're doing.

[A]

She said this is an anonymous email to warn you to keep it at a professional level with at your office. And it was followed by a promise to report the affair to the authorities of the church if it didn't stop.

[B]

A 16 year old wrote that.

[A]

16 year old Samantha is sharp.

[B]

She's sharp as shit.

[A]

She's really sharp. Now AB and Cindy knew exactly what it was. Somehow, somehow they knew that was Samantha. I don't know how, not sure what.

[B]

She do sign it Samantha.

[A]

I mean Gene Samantha, AKA Jean. So they called Samantha into the church office to talk to her. This is ABN Cindy. And they denied the accusations and told her that she was the fucked up one for imagining something like that. Meanwhile she read text messages of I'm gonna take it out of one place and put it in Another. It's pretty obvious what's going on. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

That's insulting, right?

[A]

Yes. Now, you're not only read with liars. But I'm a fucking moron now too. That's what you're telling me? I'm an idiot?

[B]

You didn't read what you thought you read.

[A]

Okay, okay. She's not six. She's 16.

[B]

Yeah, she knows what she thought. It wasn't I love you in Christ.

[A]

Yeah. No, it was Samantha. It really was. She said, they took me into his office and told me that I was wrong, that nothing was going on and how dare I accuse them of an affair. They asked. I said, what did you say back? And she said, okay. She said, you're talking to your mother and the pastor of your church and they're telling you something. And who are you to disagree? Which is true. You don't know. You're 16. So. Now, later on, Cindy would tell people that she was having an affair. But not a real affair, an emotional affair.

[B]

Oh, God, I hate those words.

[A]

Then she said, this is even worse. She said she was just trying to. I gotta wait a second to say that. Remind me to come back with what she was trying to do. July 15, 2008.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, this is before the email was sent with Samantha and all of this. Okay. This is right around the time Samantha's finding out about this affair. Yeah. Okay. It is 2am on July 15, 2008. And Arthur is driving. He says he's driving Betty, who's 56 at this point, to the hospital for jaw pain. She's got some bad jaw pain going on. He's driving her to the hospital. He claimed about 1:50am she woke up with severe jaw pain which was a TMJ flare up. And they rushed to the hospital. Okay. Now, he was driving their 2007 Chrysler PT Cruiser. Oh, boy, what a car.

[B]

What a bad car.

[A]

It's a terrible car. North on Route 715 near Tannersville. This is less than two miles from where they live, Right? All right. He said he's going 50 to 55 miles an hour. Wow. When a deer ran out into the road. Now, if you know anything about the east coast and especially rural Pennsylvania, there are deer fucking everywhere.

[B]

And I don't know. I mean, that car is gone. Everybody gets a deer. It's giving you all it's got at 55.

[A]

That's what I. You are pinning it at 55.

[B]

Boy, are you. You getting.

[A]

You're in the red in terms of the rpm. Yeah.

[B]

That car is in danger mode. And then you hit a deer with it?

[A]

No, the deer ran out in front of the car. So he swerved to avoid the deer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now when he swerves to avoid the deer, he crashes into the Guardrail on Route 715. This is in Jackson Township, obviously. Now the problem is Betty has no seatbelt on when they crash at 55 miles an hour into a guardrail and it stops. So, yeah, the car stops on the guardrail, hit the. Kind of goes partially into the woods. There's pictures of it. I'll post on social media here. Now, Betty, he said, wasn't wearing her seatbelt, so she was thrown around the car. She struck the windshield, the rear view mirror, the seatbelt post. She went all over the place here. So the car is crashed. A bystander named Stan Dickinson happens by and he's the guy who's gonna end up calling 911 here. He said he was driving home when he saw the PT Cruiser alongside the guardrail. So he stopped to help because it's two in the morning, not a lot of people out there to help. So he said. I asked him, are you okay? What's going on? What happened? And he said, yeah, he said, I'm fine, but I don't think my wife is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Now this Dickerson said the odd thing was his attitude. He turns on the light, there's a lot of blood in the car. She's obviously hurt. She's seemingly unconscious. And it was odd. He seemed indifferent. He was like, yeah, here's my wife, check her out there, look. And turned on the light like, you know, my fucking McDonald's spilled on the floor. Look, there's my chicken nuggets. That's what he was acting like. He said it was real weird. So they asked this Stan Dickerson, did you ask him if he called 911? And he said, yes. That was one of the first things I had asked him. And he just said, no, I haven't. Why?

[B]

Right? Do you need me too?

[A]

So Dickerson calls 911. I'll fucking call then. Small Town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch. Switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, but potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. And they said, what's your emergency? And he said, somebody hit a guardrail. There's a woman here, she's Hurt. There's two people in the car, but the guy seems okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

So the ambulance arrives. Betty is rushed to Lehigh Valley Hospital. Now, Julie and Amy, his daughters, Ab's daughters from his first marriage here, they rushed to the hospital as well, and everything like that. And Julie later on was asked, what was your first thought when you heard what happened? And she said, no way. Horrible. And she said, I could tell. This is Amy, I think the other daughter said, I could tell he was crying. And he just said, amy, I don't know what to do. I remember it was hard to hear. I don't know what to do. That's all he said. Now, Betty's sisters also arrive at the hospital when they get word of the accident. And one of her sisters said, I was just in shock over what Bets look like. Everyone calls her Bets, by the way. She had a wound to the left side of her head, two gashes on the right side. The sister said it was unbelievably sad. The doctor. The doctor said that her injuries were so bad that she would never recover. She's not going to recover. And said. He said, I was just taking her off life support. She's never coming back.

[B]

Got it?

[A]

Yeah. So they took her off life support and she died. Because I just waited. Yeah, it's terrible. Now, sister Tina, Bets's sister Tina said, he came out to the room where we had to wait, and he just opened the doors and said, bets has passed. That's it. She said, he wasn't crying. He wasn't anything. And then the other sister said, it was just so bizarre the way he did. There was no, like, collapse of, like, I had to get that out. Now it's emotionally nothing. It was just, oh, she's passed away. Who wants pizza? Like, it was a real weird. Yeah, thanks. Now, his daughters, like Amy, said that he hides his emotions a lot.

[B]

He doesn't show a lot.

[A]

He's a real stoic man. Yeah. She said that there were probably times where he appeared calm on the outside, but I would say inside he was a wreck. And at times when there wasn't a crowd of people around, he was not okay. She's saying it's just a performer's gene. He gets on stage and he knows he's gotta perform for the people. But then when he gets backstage, he can weep in the green room.

[B]

He'll fall apart later.

[A]

He'll fall apart later. Now Betty dead, like we said. The coroner, after she's pronounced dead, asks Ab for some details about the accident. Fill in his Report. And they said, the detective here later said he told the coroner that the vehicle spun violently out of control, struck the guardrail, and actually hit the rear of his car, almost sounding as if the vehicle was rotating and flipping. And Betty's body went flying about the vehicle with no seatbelt. AB said Betty was so badly injured because she wasn't wearing the seatbelt. The coroner's office says, well, that sounds good to me. Sounds reasonable. No seat belt, bounced around.

[B]

She beat her.

[A]

Yeah. They said, you know, I don't know why she wasn't, you know, buckled up, but that's her problem. And they said, well, case closed. Accident.

[B]

Beaten to death by PT Cruiser.

[A]

That's it. PT Cruiser homicide by PT Cruiser. No full autopsy. Okay. The body is cremated within 24 hours.

[B]

Oh, boy, that's fast.

[A]

That is real fast. So the coroner's office rules it accidental. Closes the case. And the family always says, she always wore seatbelts. She never. Like her son said, she would tell you every time you're getting in the car. Remember, seatbelts save lives. She told you that? Every goddamn time you got in the car.

[B]

She said that.

[A]

She would say, seatbelts save lives. Literally. Not just buckle up, repeat the commercial.

[B]

Seatbelts.

[A]

They were like, it's real weird that she wouldn't be wearing a seatbelt. But AB has explanations.

[B]

Yeah, we always wore them, but it was always a threat from the driver's seat. If you don't wear that and I get a ticket, I'll kick your ass.

[A]

That's what it is. That's what I always told that it wasn't about your safety. It was about.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

It's a $60 ticket. I am not paying that. That's exactly where I heard it, too. You bet my father.

[B]

If I get a ticket for your fucking seatbelt, I will take it out on you.

[A]

That's exactly what it is, man. That's the difference.

[B]

It's never about giving a shit about us.

[A]

If you grew up poor or grew up not poor. That's the difference. The seatbelt was not to save your life. It was to keep from tickets being mounted. That's all it was. Yeah, it's the truth. Absolute fucking truth. So he has different stories about the seatbelt situation. Oh, different stories.

[B]

He tells people she got cancer.

[A]

Yeah, her seatbelt gave her cancer. He said that's why she takes it off. No, Bishop. Peggy Johnson. He said the seatbelt must have came unclasped during impact.

[B]

It is a piece of shit car.

[A]

It is a shitbox to his daughters. He said Betty had just unbuckled to readjust to a more comfortable position in the seat. And that's when the deer came out. Just bad timing, he said. He glanced away from the road for one second to look at Betty taking off her seatbelt. Like, she distracted me. I heard the click. I looked over, looked up, there's a deer. I swerved. Next thing you know, she's bouncing off everything. So Julie said later on, yeah, I think that could happen. I believe that's what happened. That's his daughter Julie. Betty's sister Tina doesn't see it quite the same way, as we'll find out now. She said that A.B. told the sister, Tina, that Betty had recently developed a habit of never wearing her seatbelt anymore.

[B]

Okay, Betty's got so many stories when.

[A]

You'Re in your 50s, you just go, you know what? I've been wearing this seatbelt for so long, I'm not wearing it anymore.

[B]

How many times does it even come into play?

[A]

Come on, I don't need this. So then he said, quote, she was playing a little game, that's how he put it, to see how far they could drive before the alert sounded for the. It's 2:00am we're rushing to the hospital. Hey, let's see how long before it goes bung, bung, bung, bung. Let's see how long that takes.

[B]

I've got, spoiler alert, it's 10 seconds.

[A]

It's 10 seconds. And 50 year old women on the way to the hospital don't care about the.

[B]

They don't care.

[A]

No teenage boys who've smoked too much weed that night. Go. Hey, how long is that, man? Wait a sec, hold on. Do it here. Shut up, bro. Shut up.

[B]

How many bongs before it shuts off?

[A]

I think it's nine seconds, bro. I think it's. That's. Who does that? So the sister said, he told me that she didn't put her seatbelt on. Like immediately I'm like, she always wears her seatbelt, you know. What do you mean she didn't have her seatbelt on? And he told me, well, lately she's been doing a little game when she gets in the car. She's a real prankster, this one. Real trickster. She doesn't put her seatbelt on and she waits to see how far down the road before she hears the ding sound.

[B]

It's 10 seconds, dickhead.

[A]

It's the same in every car. And I said, that is crazy. And he said, I know that doesn't sound like Bets. But that's what she was doing.

[B]

No, it doesn't sound like anybody.

[A]

Does any adult human that sounds like a nine year old. Where you go. Will you stop doing that? Put your goddamn seatbelt on before I get a fucking tick. That's what you'd say.

[B]

My daughter likes to pull it and not like take it all the way off. Just like press the button and hold it there just to hear it go and just to piss me off because she knows it drives me fucking insane.

[A]

I hate that noise. And then she clicks it back in while she's doing that. She shot through the fucking windshield. And that would be. That's what happened here, apparently.

[B]

You know what I would say? Serves you fucking right.

[A]

That's what you get, asshole. So this is nuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, the detective later said, I think Mr. Shermer was trying to offer an explanation because the sisters knew that Betty always wore her seatbelt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So yeah, he said, I know it doesn't sound like her, but that's what happened. So this is weird now, after he told her about state police already talked to her about the events that led up to the death and everything like that, the sister asked him about the contradiction in the crash. And he just said, it's just a game, man. That's what it is. Who wins in that?

[B]

What's the game?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. It's a real fun game. And it's the same amount every time. So that game lasts one session, 10 seconds. Ding, ding. That's how long it takes, maybe two, to make sure it's consistent. It's still 10 seconds. Game over. We never play this fucking game again. Ever.

[B]

He has to be hauling ass for us to get further or just snail's pace for us to not get as far. But every time, 10 seconds.

[A]

10 seconds. So this is an email to one of the sisters here. He said, I would not hurt her. That's what he said. Which he did two things that are bad there. A, he didn't do the contraction, I would not hurt her. But he typed it. So that's different than speech. People write different than they speak. So that. I'll give you. That's a great point. But hurt her is a minimization that minimizes crazy. She's not hurt. She's dead.

[B]

No, she's gone.

[A]

Someone who didn't kill someone says, I didn't kill her. She's not dead. She's dead. And I'm sad.

[B]

She's already on fire.

[A]

Gone.

[B]

Dust.

[A]

Dust.

[B]

She's in a bag.

[A]

The sister said what? Did you tell. No, she's not in a bag. She's in an urn that you're gonna shit when you hear what this urn is. It's crazy. Okay.

[B]

Oh, I can't wait.

[A]

It's gonna be amazing.

[B]

I'm saying, did we already get to the other thing that you were doing?

[A]

The.

[B]

The other thing you told me to remind you.

[A]

Oh, shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The daughter. What was that? Damn it. Now I gotta go back. Son of a bitch. Oh, yes. Okay. Okay. Yes. Cindy had told people that the affair was just. She was just helping him. The emotional affair was just helping him grieve for his dead wife. That's all it was.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

So it wasn't a physical affair. It was an emotional affair because she felt bad for him because his wife was dead and all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's all. I was just fucking him to help him. Feel me.

[A]

Yeah. Trust me. He was smiling. I think I accomplished my goal.

[B]

Doesn't describe her. That's the nicest person ever.

[A]

Wow. So both sisters of Betty, Tina and Sandy wondered why Betty was cremated immediately. What's up with that? Why'd you cremate her so fast? And one of them said. Atina said she was against cremation. And then here's Ab telling us that. That she chose to be cremated. But they couldn't really say anything because he's the husband. Yeah. He's allowed to. Maybe she told him that. And that's, you know, it's a private thing.

[B]

Best friend.

[A]

Yeah. So. October 16, 2008. Okay, now Joe is getting suspicious. Remember Joe Masante with Cindy? The husband of the guy, of the woman that he's fucking? Well, he's getting suspicious as well because of all the time she spends with Ab. While Cindy was driving somewhere, she was away. Joe asked Samantha directly, is your mother in love with the pastor? Because she knows that Samantha's the closest. Don't involve your kids.

[B]

Don't ask me this.

[A]

Nobody involve your kids in anything that has to do with your personal life whatsoever, first of all, but he's at the end of his rope and he's. He could be drunk, too. So we don't know.

[B]

I don't know if it's love, dad, but it's certainly lust.

[A]

It's certainly something. Yeah. So Samantha said, yes, there's something going on there. So Samantha says. And then he said, does she love him? And I just said, I think so. And she said, that's probably one of the most horrible things that you can Hear that? Your wife loves somebody else. When asked how he reacted, Samantha said he didn't have a lot to say, but I could tell he was devastated. Yeah, he was. He ended up confronting Cindy and saying, what the fuck? She said, I'm so sorry. She admitted to it. She said, I'm so sorry. It's over, it's over. I'm gonna recommit myself to this marriage and it's all over. And I'm not. I wanna continue to be married to you and I love you and blah blah, blah.

[B]

So much for having enough of the alcoholism.

[A]

Yeah. And later on she said, on the surface I did. I said what I said, but in my heart I didn't. She said, meaning she wanted to stay in the marriage. She said, on the surface I did, but in my heart I didn't. I made it look like I wanted to continue to be married to him, but that was not my intention. Yeah, what the fuck? She said. For the next two weeks, Joe watched every phone call his wife made. Checked online records to see who she spoke to. He's checking the phone bills and shit, like her Verizon bill and shit. He also reached out to AB's higher ups in the church seeking an inquiry into him that he shouldn't be fucking parishioners. That is the number one rule of being a pastor is all those women. Don't fuck any of them, none of them. Zero women in here you can fuck.

[B]

And if you're married, how about just fuck your wife?

[A]

Just fuck your wife. Don't do it in front up there either, but do that in private also. But just, you know.

[B]

And I realize there's relationships that are open and whatever it's on, but a pastor should never be in one of those.

[A]

Probably not. Or he just shouldn't be a pastor, that's all. Or he should be a pastor of a real progressive church. Just a real laid back church.

[B]

They take hallucinations together.

[A]

Yeah, it's real fun. Like you were saying before, that's a more fun.

[B]

Real Progressive.

[A]

Real progressive. October 28, 2008, Joe threatens to kill himself and the children. Everybody. I will kill kids, Joe, everybody. Joe says we don't know how drunk he was or whatever, but Cindy, scared, takes the children and goes to her sister's house and tells everybody around her family, including the kids, including 16 year old Samantha, to let his calls go to voicemail. Don't take his calls, don't do anything. Wow. That night, Joe called his daughter multiple times and she didn't answer. He left a voicemail Saying, quote, if you love me at all, please call me back. Oh, okay. He said, honey, if you love me even a little bit, please call me back.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

To his daughter. She didn't hear the messages till the next morning. She just turned her phone off and ignored it. October 29, 2008. Secretary of the church Marjorie Hickman arrives at the Reader's United Methodist Church and finds that the office door's stained glass window has been smashed.

[B]

Blasted out.

[A]

Blasted out.

[B]

In or out?

[A]

She didn't say. She just said smashed. Okay. She just saw it was smashed. I assume in as we'll find out. Now, she goes inside and finds a figure slumped behind the pastor's desk, behind Ab's handmade desk. And it's Joe.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Joe is dead from a single gunshot wound to the head. Sitting in the chair behind Ab's desk.

[B]

Behind the desk. He made.

[A]

He made. He's got a.380 handgun at his feet. Not in his hand, at his feet.

[B]

380.

[A]

A. 380 to the head. I think that's what he had. What are you gonna do? Okay, this is what I got.

[B]

It's just an interesting choice.

[A]

Yeah, it's a small. Yeah, it's not a huge round, but it's. I guess if you got a.380, I.

[B]

Mean, it's a good size round. It's is. It's pretty close to 9 millimeters. It's just such a small.

[A]

Weird. It's a tiny.

[B]

Yeah, it's a little suicide. And width.

[A]

It's odd. So Cindy tells the kids here, Samantha said, my mom just sat us down and she said, your father decided he didn't want to be here anymore. Now, the police think that's all great and everything, but we'd like to make sure he didn't want to be here anymore. And it wasn't that someone else didn't want him to be here anymore. Let's check on that. So the detective here, Jim Wagner is his name, from the Pocono Township Police Department along with the Pennsylvania state troopers. They examine the scene. They find glass fragments on the soles of Joe's shoes, confirming he broke through the stained glass door himself.

[B]

Well, at least he walked through broken glass, something.

[A]

And blood. Evidence was consistent with a self inflicted wound. No signs of a struggle. Gunshot residue on Joe's hand. On his strong hand. Too strong. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[B]

That sounds like suicide.

[A]

They said, I mean, you could look at. Stack it any way you want. This guy killed himself.

[B]

I mean, that's wild.

[A]

He was Making a complaint. Hours before he broke into the office there, he was calling the Reverend Brownwyn Yoakum. Said he was calling to make a complaint and alleged that the pastor was having an affair with his wife. Yeah, there's only two places you can call someone to complain about that. That's church in the military. That's the only people. The only places you can call and go, this guy's fucking my wife. And they wouldn't go, all right, what the fuck is this?

[B]

Other than that, it's not fair.

[A]

Yeah, well, figure it out. I don't know. Divorce her or something. That's when it's, like, an actual crime.

[B]

What's it call her? Doggy. Yeah.

[A]

What are you calling me for? So the guy said he wanted me to have something. He wanted to have something done about it, is what this person said in a series of phone calls. This person arranged to have Joe come to her Allentown office the next morning to write out a formal complaint against AB but he never made the trip because he went and shot himself instead. Right. Police talked to Cindy, and this is one of the first interviews, obviously. And she said she worked as a personal secretary for the pastor. And the trooper said, why would he go do it here? Why here? What's the significance? It's not like it was. I could see if it was a place where he had the keys to and he could go in there, and it was like, you know, having a hotel.

[B]

Broke into the church for this?

[A]

Yeah. We could have broken into the Arby's and done this. You know what I mean? Like, why here did he do this? And she told him, quote, joseph believed that the pastor was involved with someone at the church. And the next question logically is, does.

[B]

He have a wife?

[A]

Who. Who in the church is he involved with? And she said, quote, I guess that would be me. That was really. You went the long way to get there. You really went the long way.

[B]

Wow. What a fascinating way to say it.

[A]

I guess that would be me. You didn't want to say that.

[B]

She didn't think they were gonna get to the who.

[A]

She's like, if he asks me, I'm gonna be honest, but I'm not fucking giving away any information here. You gotta pry it from my cold, dead hands. Yeah.

[B]

She went, I don't know. Rumor is he's fucking somebody. Really? Who? Ah, shit.

[A]

Shit. Damn it.

[B]

You foiled me.

[A]

Damn it. These detectives are so curious. Fuck. They're so curious. They're so nosy.

[B]

They don't stop asking questions.

[A]

They just keep Asking stuff. Nosy.

[B]

I figured maybe that would satisfy him. And then they said, who? God damn it.

[A]

God damn it. Asshole. With this. Who? Fucking wise asses. So that's what's going on. So now they go, okay, we are looking into Ab here to make sure he didn't do this because it looks like a suicide. But let's find out. So Ab does have an airtight alibi. Cindy had warned him that Joe and his gun were both missing. So he took off from his house and was in a hotel an hour away.

[B]

Smart move.

[A]

Gone. He took off.

[B]

But three times death has touched this man.

[A]

That's the thing. This guy is just the pastor of fucking. Of death is the best way to put it.

[B]

That's a lot of death to touch.

[A]

You fucking pastor of tragedy. He is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So after this, Ab admitted to the bishop that he had a non physical relationship with Cindy. Mm. Yeah. And was told to take a health leave because, you know, they just. This is what they do. Well, you just take some time off and that'll make it all better. And then we'll put you somewhere else.

[B]

And it'll be fine. Sounds like you're sick. Wink, wink.

[A]

Yeah. Aren't you? You don't feel good, right? So the guy said, he told him, take a deep breath and let the investigation proceed. And just take you relax for your own health. Two weeks later, Ab resigned from the church. Oh, he's done resigned. Now Joe's death is ruled a suicide. Case closed. No matter how much motivation anybody had, the evidence says he killed himself, Period. So that's that. Now Joe has a sister and she. There's a couple of kind of hero type figures in this entire story. She's the A1 hero of this fucking story. Rose Cobb is her name. And she's awesome. She does not let shit go. And I like her. She said nothing about this felt right. No, about her brother's suicide. She arrived post suicide to the house, Joe and Cindy's house, and noticed the home was empty. Not a furniture, but of people. I don't know how. I think in a church community, it's kind of like if you're Italian, if somebody dies, everybody comes to the fucking house and they bring you food and they, you know, that kind of shit. So she said there was none of it. Nobody was there, nobody was doing anything. It didn't make sense. And Rose said it was horrible, shocking, traumatic thing to have somebody not only shoot themselves, but shoot themselves in a church. I couldn't believe it. My brother was dead and I didn't know what happened to him. So she traveled to Readers for the memorial service and found this house was empty. There's no mourners. She said, there's no food, there's no any of this shit.

[B]

There's no widow grieving, nothing.

[A]

No. No neighbors with nothing. So she asked Samantha, no. Well, she might be around, but nobody that's not in the family. She asked Cindy, why did nobody come over? And that's when Cindy spilled it and said, well, I had an affair and I love the pastor and me and Joe were done. And she tells her the whole story. Oh, boy. So Rose said, first I asked her, are you having an affair? And she said, well, that depends on what you mean by an affair. She is ready to testify, this lady. That depends on what the definition of the word is is. That's one of those that depends on what you mean by an affair. Okay.

[B]

She's already litigating this.

[A]

Yep. She's already parsing. And Rose Cobb said. And then she explained it was emotional. She said, well, I mean, this is. Rose said, well, I mean, I guess I just felt like she was so in love with him. And she didn't know what. Rose was just shocked by this. So she didn't expect to go to her brother's memorial service and then talk to her sister in law and hear that she was in love with some pastor and none of this, the marriage was over. And not only was the marriage over, she wasn't even. According to Rose Cobb, Cindy wasn't that sad, according to Rose about this whole thing. She was more excited about being in love with the pastor.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Rose said she was very giddy. Giddy? Yeah, Very childlike. That's Rose's opinion. We don't know how true that is. Obviously, that's just what Rose says. But she seems pretty trustworthy here. Then Rose learns the rest of the shit here. She already doesn't like this Ab guy. Just hearing that he's banging her brother's wife. Then she learns that Betty, his second wife, Ab. Second wife, had just died a few months earlier in a car crash, right? Yeah. Then found out his first wife had died from a fall down the stairs nine years before that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She said, I said, what happened? And she said, well, you know, a deer ran out in front of the road. He swerved to miss the deer and hit a bridge or something like that and she ended up dying. That was what Rose said. The explanation was. She said, I knew something was not right. The hair on the back of my neck actually stood up. I Thought he was a fraud. Something was wrong. Yeah.

[B]

Well, what seatbelt games do you play?

[A]

Yeah. You don't fucking. You don't hear ding? That doesn't turn you on?

[B]

You don't play Ding Dong? By the way, do we get to know the urn?

[A]

Yes. I was just going to say, you want to know the urn, by the way, was that the urn thing? Riveted. It is an urn with a big deer on it. No. Yes. A big fucking deer. He puts on it a deer. He bought the deer urn. That means it's legit, right? Deer killed her. He bought a deer.

[B]

How do you do that?

[A]

Is that telling on yourself? A little bit. The deer thing, is that just weird?

[B]

He's really selling it.

[A]

He's selling hard. He is selling this shit like a timeshare. This is wild.

[B]

Why would they sell that, though? Especially back east where you can actually die hitting a fucking deer.

[A]

But some guy who hunted deer for 30 years, he might want to run with a deer on it, you know what I mean? He's been hanging their heads. Now they're hanging his. You know how it is.

[B]

Ah, it's so funny, though. Why would he do that?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. I had to save that fact because that's so amazing.

[B]

What a dick.

[A]

He's such an asshole, this guy. People cannot help telling on themselves. They can't fucking help it. So what about Jewel? Rose says she was just suspicious of all these deaths, and she's.

[B]

And then I saw the deer urn. What the fuck?

[A]

What the fuck? I was like, this is bullshit. There's a goddamn deer urn. She said, oh, she fell down some stairs. You know about a sweeper or something. Cobb said. Really? That's what Rose said, that the explanation from Cindy was, you know, she fell down some stairs. A sweeper. You know, the shop vac. So Rose says she dies from falling down the stairs. Then the second wife dies from being in a car accident where the deer never even hit the car. It's like, what happened, Right? Yeah, he avoided it, she said. It struck me as funny that so many bad things was happening to him.

[B]

He's just this poor bastard.

[A]

Yeah. This is insane. So now Rose hears all this shit and says, I'm gonna contact the police, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So she contacts not only Bishop Peggy Johnson of the United Methodist Church, she also contacts the Pocono Township police.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

That's what led to Shermer's resignation in 2008 and prompted Detective Jim Wagner to reopen Betty's case.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So, yeah. Rose said, I didn't trust what was going on. This was all about her brother to begin with. She said, I didn't trust what was going on. Did he really kill himself? She looked at this in a macro view and said, joe's the third dead body linked to this asshole pastor who fucks his congregants. So. So he's a dishonest guy and that's that. So anyway, Rose is contacted by the police as well. She contacts them, they contact her back. Detective Jim Wagner was all ears. This guy, I like the way he puts this. This is how every detective should think. He said, my job's to be suspicious, and I'm suspicious of everyone. Yeah, you're a homicide detective. I'm suspicious whatever happens. Yeah.

[B]

I accuse my wife of cheating on me four or five times a day.

[A]

Just to keep it. Just to keep her honest. I mean, it's ruined our marriage, don't get me wrong. The trust and everything we have. But I feel peace of mind. That's the thing.

[B]

Tell my kids they're liars. I don't trust a goddamn person.

[A]

I don't trust anybody. My dog, he's on my shit side. Let me tell you something.

[B]

He lies to me a lot.

[A]

He lies to me. I put him under house arrest. That's what happens.

[B]

Tells me he loves me. I don't fucking believe him.

[A]

I don't buy it. Then licks to the face. False. Detective Wagner said there were just too many red flags to ignore. He said, I suspected that it was very possible for Joe's death to be at the hands of Mr. Shermer or Cindy because it made it very convenient for them to pee together. And they are. They are together now, too. They are immediately together. An item. An item. He's at the house all the time, everything. So the detective said Joe discovered that his wife and Mr. Shermer were having an affair. And how convenient that Joe was now gone.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But Wagner said, I'm gonna even open up that suicide again. The state police can call it a suicide. I'm gonna check it out.

[B]

I'm gonna look into it.

[A]

So, yeah. And they said that the only people that might have alibis to kill Joe, Cindy and A.B. both had airtight alibis. Airtight. He was an hour away. She was with family members. All of her kids were around. And Samantha seems like she would roll on her if she was suspicious of this, too.

[B]

And she's calling him and saying, watch out. He's out there with a gun right now.

[A]

Yeah. Totally. And Detective Wagner said AB was an hour away and his alibi checked out. Cindy also had an alibi and she was with her children. So he agreed with the state police that death definitely was a suicide.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And Rose said, they said he killed himself. And I accepted that he did. So Rose said that was fine. She accepted that her brother was not murdered. But she had a lot of other questions, though. So she goes to the detective, and the detective said, I thought it was strange that a man loses two wives in a relatively short period of time. It certainly needed to be investigated thoroughly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Less than 10 years. That's crazy. He said, had we caught this right away, had the officers suspected some foul play in the beginning, we would have had a lot more evidence to look at. But they just. Everything's an accident. So you just have to kind of go back. Now, the prosecutor. This is Michael Mancuso, the Monroe County District Attorney prosecutor here. He said, quote, well, my office was never even aware of Betty's death because it was listed as an accident.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They come to us.

[A]

Yeah. He said it was listed as an accident due to car crash. It was never flagged by the original investigators as anything suspicious. So the DA's office had no reason to look into it. It wasn't until the fall of 2008 that I was approached by Pocono Township police officer Jimmy Wagner, that's the detective we were talking about, and a Pennsylvania State trooper, Phil Barletto, with their suspicions. They had seen photographs that were taken at the scene of the so called accident. They were very concerned because the blood in the vehicle didn't match the condition of the vehicle, which was lightly damaged and didn't match the circumstances. It looked as if Betty, who'd been in the passenger side of the vehicle, was bleeding before the accident. Oh, he said that was a big red flag. And he was asked, how did all this come out? And basically they started looking at the Reverend after Joe's suicide. Joe's suicide and Roe's pushing. That's what sparked all of this. If Joe just moves away and recedes into nothing, they never look into this shit twice, ever.

[B]

Yeah, they don't ever recognize that there was blood before the car accident ever.

[A]

Joe and Cindy get a divorce, none of this shit happens at all. Or he kills himself somewhere else less suspiciously. Not in church. If he does it in his bedroom, different story. So they were like, interesting. So they started looking everything there. And as they were looking into the backstory, they found out Shermer's first wife had Died under somewhat mysterious circumstances of fall down the stairs. So he's like, I got a lot to look into. Now they're going to look into Betty's crash. First they review the crash photos, noting low speed impact. Not 55 like he said, more like 15 to 25. Oh, sir, the other thing that was fucked up here, this is four months after this, basically. They also found no deer evidence, which there isn't really going to be evidence of a deer running across the street. It doesn't leave anything behind unless it shoots.

[B]

I mean, apart from all those pellets.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's it. So it's interesting here. Now he immediately sees in these photos no skid marks, no tire marks, no evidence of any evasive maneuver whatsoever, no signs of braking. So what he said happened, slam on the brakes, spin in a circle. This is all going to leave marks on the road, all that shit. Yeah, no marks.

[B]

Any. Any swerve will. If you swerve hard enough at 55, you'll leave tire marks whether you want brakes or not.

[A]

Especially if you spin after.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This is the kicker though. No, the coins. The coins, yes.

[B]

In the dish. In the dish tray.

[A]

When they looked at the coin holder, they saw that almost all the quarters remain neatly in place.

[B]

Oh, one of those stacker things that are in Dodges.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. And he said the impact was so minor that they didn't go flying all over the place.

[B]

Yeah. If you've got six, seven quarters in there, because it's just a spring that.

[A]

Holds them, they're heavy enough everywhere.

[B]

They're heavy enough that if in an impact it'll compress that spring and they'll. They're fucking everywhere.

[A]

Everywhere.

[B]

Projectiles.

[A]

Yep. They said that. That was crazy. They said also the car looked to be in remarkably good shape. He said there was a little. There was a little damage to the front end of the car. The airbags had not deployed under 25 then. Yeah, it was very obvious. This was a low speed impact. Mr. Shermer's vehicle was actually functional after the accident.

[B]

It was drivable.

[A]

She said he could have back or. He said he could have backed up and continued to drive his wife to the hospital.

[B]

And he didn't.

[A]

He didn't. So they do an accident reconstruction here. They get experts from Penn State University.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They create two animated reconstructions at 20 miles an hour. The PT Cruiser hit the guardrail and stopped.

[B]

They got two PTs.

[A]

Yeah. That cost them upwards of $4,000. It was really. They went all out for that.

[B]

How they found Two that weren't totaled. Amazing.

[A]

Two that weren't just complete shit. Well, they had to go find one of those old person communities. They usually have them in there somewhere. So they said at 40 miles an hour, it crashed through the guardrail and continued into the woods. Went right through it. Hot knife through butter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Since the car only moved one guardrail beam about a foot before being stopped by it, the actual speed they found was likely 18 to 22 miles an hour. So slow, which is way different than 55 miles an hour.

[B]

Why would you do that?

[A]

Yeah, and they said at that speed, there was no evidence of an avoidance maneuver and insufficient damage to cause a fatal injury. This wasn't a high speed crash.

[B]

Yeah. 20 miles an hour. You can stop that car so fast.

[A]

You can. And if you hit something at 20 miles an hour, I mean, it's an impact, but it's not. You're not gonna die.

[B]

Oh, that's not gonna explode. A pt, even a PT Cruiser can survive.

[A]

That has minimal. Yeah, and safety features. The detective studies the blood patterns inside the PT Cruiser and found inconsistencies with AB's narrative as well. Uh oh. He said there were numerous blood drops on the seat cushion that had been diluted or absorbed or had a diluted or an absorbed look to it, as if she had been sitting in the blood for a length of time and got mushed into the seat. So an interviewer said that would raise some questions. Right. They said if I'm sitting in a car being thrown around, there might be blood all around here, but there wouldn't be blood on my seat. Probably. Probably. Right. And the detective said, no, not underneath your body. And the fact that it was absorbed and saturated meant she was placed in it. Yeah, that's how it works. They said if Betty had been an unrestrained passenger thrown violently around the car, you'd expect blood to be across the dashboard, windshield, and on multiple surfaces. He said there was blood on the passenger seat, the floorboard, and the dashboard.

[B]

And there'd be like, a variety of types of blood. There would be pools, spattered, there'd be mist, there'd be smears. It'd be all over the place.

[A]

All different ways. Yeah, they said dried blood that Betty's body had been placed on top of. They said the blood on the floorboard matched where Betty's head was resting in the reclined seat. The amount showed that she'd been in that position for a substantial period of time after receiving her injuries. Far longer than the moments between a crash and the arrival of Paramedics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's also a contact stain on the headrest. A blood pattern showing movement from right to left. Consistent with a heavily bleeding person being loaded into the car, not thrown around by impact. So the doctor, Wayne Ross, Remember him from Jules? He said the presence of that blood and where it was in the car told me that bloodshed had occurred before she got into the car.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Driver's side. Not a drop of blood. Perfectly clean. Perfectly clean. And there was. He had not a speck of blood on him. He was pristine. So, December 2008, they do a search warrant. Here we go. Okay. This is for the parsonage in Readers. So where they live? In the church, I guess, in Readers, they search in the garage. Here. This is Betty's. And with luminol, they find blood in the garage. They find a trail of blood leading to the car's passenger side.

[B]

Oh, fuck.

[A]

That's not good at all.

[B]

That deer is vicious.

[A]

He's mean. You know what it is he keeps? He holds a grudge. That's the problem. He'll come for you when you least expect it.

[B]

He's been around all day.

[A]

That's right. He's outside just smoking.

[B]

Just wait.

[A]

When are these cocksuckers gonna go to bed? I wanna set up. Wow. The detectives said they spotted it almost immediately. Blood on the floor that someone had tried to clean. White marks indicated a scrubbing effort. But the luminol tells all. And that's it? They said it lit up like crazy. The detective said I walked in the back of the garage, and as soon as I entered, I observed blood stains on the concrete floor. I was shocked. I could not believe I was seeing blood stains on the floor. So, yeah, the trail of blood leads from the back door of the house through the garage to the exact spot where the PT Cruiser's passenger door would have been when it was parked. Because AB always, always, always pulled into the garage exactly the exact same way. Yep. Yep.

[B]

That's what you do.

[A]

Habits. Everyone has them.

[B]

Yeah. If you've got a parking spot, you.

[A]

Park how you park all the time. So the blood path led directly to where Betty would have been loaded in. And tests confirmed that the blood was Betty's. The blood they found in the garage. So they said she was bleeding prior to getting in that car. And she was assaulted and put in that car and placed in that car seat. The DNA testing confirmed the blood was 20 trillion times more likely to belong to Betty than anyone else. I would call that a match.

[B]

Than anyone else.

[A]

20 trillion. Which is a Trillion times more than every human that's ever lived on the Earth, basically.

[B]

Ever.

[A]

Ever.

[B]

There still has not been somebody that duplicates her DNA.

[A]

This planet will have burnt. The sun will burn out and this planet will die before there are 20 trillion people to compare this shit to.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

It's our. So they said Betty was beaten somewhere in or near the house, dragged through the back door, across the garage floor, loaded into the passenger seat of the PT Cruiser while bleeding profusely Ab. Then gently drove into the guardrail and went, oh, no. My poor wife. Wow, that is diabolical. Right? Holy shit. So they have all this info, they're gonna bring AB in for a little interrogation.

[B]

And they're not gonna tell them they know this, right?

[A]

Well, let's find out.

[B]

This is great.

[A]

Well, he was interrogated for six hours, okay? Now, when they confront him with the blood evidence, his story changed. First of all, he said, there's no blood in the garage. I don't know what you're talking about. Never saw blood in the garage. Then they go, well, we found blood in the garage. And they said, okay. Went through this. First. He flatly denied Betty had ever bled in the garage. Then they said, we found a bunch of blood. And then he said, you know what? Just remember. She got a memory, this memory. You know how it is. You get in your 50s and, you know, memory. He said that? Yes, that's right. He and Betty were moving firewood from the garage to the backyard. Some wood fell on Betty and cut her arm so much that she dripped blood all over the floor.

[B]

That's a nasty gash.

[A]

That's nasty. That's a. Oh, that's amazing. That's a nasty gash. Is a horrible thing to say.

[B]

To any woman, really.

[A]

To really. Any woman, really. That's a nasty gash. Okay. Sorry about that, guys. That hit me real hard. Cause I'm 12. So anyway.

[B]

You really gotta cut yourself to spray blood.

[A]

I. Okay. You know how my house is. I have wood stoves and we keep wood fires going all the time. I get wood on a nightly basis from October to about April, every single night. One time I got a splinter in my thumb and a little bit of blood was there. There is zero blood in my woodshed. No trails of it. There's none of it. And this is every single fucking day for months. Never for years.

[B]

What does he say in Cutter? The mall or just the wood?

[A]

A piece of wood. A sharp piece of wood. Piece of wood. She got stuck with it right in her bed. All right?

[B]

Stabbed herself with a Piece of wood.

[A]

Yeah. That sounds awful. So poor Betty here. That's what he said. Now, investigators went to look at the wood pile near the backyard fire pit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Underneath the stack they found. Like I'm. Under the stack, they found newspapers dated September 2008, two months after Betty's death in July. So she didn't put wood on top of there? No, because she was dead before that newspaper.

[B]

Why did he put newspapers there?

[A]

Well, you need kindling.

[B]

Yeah, but the. Yeah, I know.

[A]

This is the dumbest. He's such an idiot, this guy.

[B]

I mean, it's the old to prove who you are. You got today the date, man. Every page has the date.

[A]

It's fucking crazy.

[B]

Every goddamn page.

[A]

And they said she was already sitting in her deer urn. Her deer themed urn when this is going on. And one of the investigators said all of us thought it was bs, it was a made up story.

[B]

And it's amazing that he doesn't realize it.

[A]

It. And then they found all the emails from his computer revealing his marital discord, which is now we get some details. He was avoiding divorce to retain assets. He didn't want to get a divorce because he didn't want to give her half. He said that they hadn't really had any sexual contact in a couple of years, him and Betty, because she had been going through menopause and had been completely uninterested in sex. So they had no sex for years.

[B]

That's right when they got married. Right. Because they haven't been married.

[A]

2001, they got married 2008. This happened. So this could have been 2005, menopause.

[B]

Five years of sex and then it stops. That's tough.

[A]

And also he talks about his affairs and the fact that he loves porn a lot. Loves it, loves it, loves it. People who claim to love porn the least are the ones that are the most into it, by the way.

[B]

The ones that are like the ones.

[A]

That horrible, horrible thing. Check their history.

[B]

I think it's the ones that lecture you about your affection to porn. Those are the people that love it way more than you.

[A]

Way more than you could ever. You only like it a little bit. So much that you're not embarrassed to tell anybody. You know what I mean? They only like it so much.

[B]

It's a secret from time to time.

[A]

Every once in a while, fill in some gaps or whatever.

[B]

As an aid.

[A]

Yes. As a tool.

[B]

He can only come with it.

[A]

That's his lifestyle. So also, after all of this, their affair is still going on while they're Investigating this, which is crazy. He started staying weekends at the house, Cindy's house, that Joe built with his hands, by the way, because he's a carpenter.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

By January 2010, he moved in. Yeah, they live together now. Samantha said he started to spend the night and he'd spend the weekend and go home. And pretty soon he wasn't leaving at all. So Samantha, on her 18th birthday, packed up her shit and left. So I'm out of this.

[B]

Nice work, Sam.

[A]

Samantha's a badass, dude. She is not taking this shit.

[B]

She's not having this shit.

[A]

No, her and Betty not having. Or her and Rose not having this shit at all. Rose, the sister, Joe's sister. She said she couldn't live under the same roof as this asshole who ruined her whole family. So summer of 2010, Cindy texted Samantha and said, AB proposed. He gave me an engagement ring, and I said yes. Samantha said she was terrified because she knows he has two dead wives already. And so she thought, he's gonna kill my mother. That's what's gonna happen. He's gonna go for a third. So she called the Pocono Township Police Department immediately. Yeah. And the detective, Wendy Surface, said when Samantha contacted her office, she was fearful for her mother. She was afraid of what would happen. And the detective said, yeah, that sounds pretty weird. I'd be afraid, too. So this detective said, I don't think Cindy was safe at all. I think it was a matter of time before whatever his trigger was would surface in their relationship, too. I think that trigger is somebody else.

[B]

I think that trigger is being caught about somebody. I mean, somebody else is somebody else. As long as it's not known, then it doesn't matter.

[A]

Yeah, this is. But you confront him on it now, we might get into a divorce, where now we're going to take half my shit. It's a different story. So they said that this had been two years since Betty had died when this happened. And this detective said the case was a long time building because there were so many gaps in time we had to fill. So anyway, they have all his emails. They have all of this type of shit. July 8, 2010, Betty's death is reclassified by the coroner as a homicide rather than an accident. So that is July 8th. September 13th, 2010, AB is arrested for Betty's murder. Oh, it is on.

[B]

Hey, Ab, we've reclassified your wife's death. And bad news, bad news.

[A]

He was living at Cindy's home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the detective, Jim Wagner, said, We found Mr. Shermer living at Joseph Musanti's home. We arrested him there and it was pretty satisfying putting him in cuffs. Yeah, I bet he's denied. Bailiff as well here. A grand jury heard witnesses like a paramedic who talked about the injuries not matching the damage. And experts on staging too. Right now they're still looking into Jewel now as well. Remember that wife one Wagner said, okay, I think he killed her. Let's find out about that first one. So he looks into that and he called the cops in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, and he said, I found out that her Death was in 1999. It was from a fall down a flight of stairs. So AB had said that Jewel was vacuuming the stairs when she somehow got tangled in the shop vac cord and tumbled to the bottom.

[B]

Okay. She fell on six.

[A]

Yeah. She's not 85 years old where that would happen either. She's like a 30 year old lady at that point. I think she could. Or 40. I think she could pull it together. It should be all right. Yeah. Yeah. The doctor said it looked like she had a heart attack at first, but then the medical examiner couldn't prove that and then said it wasn't. And Dr. Wayne Ross again says the problem is the pathology was totally negative for heart disease. And the problem is we have to make sure it's not a homicide. Right. So he also noticed that she had several skull fractures like we talked about. No other broken bones, no significant injuries below her neck. And they said if she fell down the stairs, she'd have all sorts of other injuries. That's why he classified it as undoing. Undetermined.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I didn't say it was an accident. He said undetermined means it's open. It could certainly be anything.

[B]

Yeah, he just doesn't have a classified at any time.

[A]

Yeah, he just doesn't have enough evidence to go either way. But he urged investigators to look into their death, but they didn't. Wow. They didn't. They just didn't look. Now, Shermer's daughters, though, they don't believe their mother was murdered. They believe their mother was an accident. She died. Yes, absolutely. Amy said there were no questions. I had no questions. I wasn't questioning anything. And Julie said I didn't think it was uncommon for people to fall down steps. And I still don't. I think vacuuming steps with a shop vac is very dangerous for anyone. That's generally why people don't vacuum steps with a shop vac too, which is also.

[B]

Yeah. Who would do that?

[A]

Why would you do that? It doesn't make sense. So they do 3D scans. This is Dr. Wayne Ross again here. He said, no autopsy to review. The investigators turned to Wayne Ross, who'd autopsied her in 1999. They asked him to review Betty's medical records as well. So using Betty's CAT scans, Dr. Ross and a team of computer specialists created three dimensional renderings of her skull images. This is for Betty, not jewel. Right. This is evidence they need. The 3D models allowed him to examine the wounds up close and in detail, as if he had her body on the autopsy table. He said, what we are looking at here is two lacerations. And you can see the staples on top. Obviously this was not caused by a car accident. This is along the right side of her head. I didn't see any windshield abrasions in the front. The lacerations were to the right side of the head and were very distinct up toward the top. Okay. He said it was inconsistent with a crash, but matching blunt force from a cylindrical object.

[B]

Cylindrical.

[A]

He said that. Well, I believe she was beaten. And my conclusion, she was beaten with an object such as a pipe or maybe a crowbar. Something along those lines. Okay, so similar to the fireplace poker we had a few weeks back.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe a baseball bat.

[A]

Absolutely. By the way, those people are great. The family of the Twarski family. Unbelievable people. They are. Love that. Brad Twarsky, terrific. The brother of the victim of Kathy. Unbelievable. She's just great people. Just want to say that up front here. Fireplace poker murder. That was the name of it. So he said that and the fact that Betty has all this and Jules has all this head injuries in the same way that are suspicious. They said it's just not possible.

[B]

Two wives dying of head injuries with absolutely opposite things that caused them. However, low impact, but high fucking damage.

[A]

So he then puts Betty's 3D scans next to Jules autopsy records in 1999. And the wounds are identical. Almost. He said, what? Nearly identical. That's it.

[B]

Identical?

[A]

Identical. He said both women had two linear tears on the right side of the head. Both died of traumatic brain injuries. Both were married to the same man. 2 and 2. He said, let's use common sense. How likely is it to have two women married to the same guy, Two lacerations on the right side of the head, both dying of traumatic brain injuries under bizarre circumstances.

[B]

Pretty well zero.

[A]

Right? He said, the obvious answer to that is never. That's how likely it's never gonna happen. So they do the jewelry investigation as well here. And one of the detectives, or the District attorney said, we wanna move as quickly as we can because it's difficult to investigate something that happened 11 years ago. Right. Which is obvious. Yeah. So anyway, also, they had an investigator inspect the PT Cruiser that Betty was in for defects that might have contributed to the crash, just to see. Didn't find anything.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He even said it was still working.

[B]

Apart from it being a pizza cruiser. Yeah, everything was operating.

[A]

He goes, a real piece of crap. But, I mean, it works for Pete Cruiser. Yeah. And he said the vehicle worked great. He said, I've never seen that before. A vehicle that's been involved in a fatal accident that has never been driven in. I couldn't believe it. He said, it looks like it was pizza cruiser.

[B]

It was working great. I've never seen that before.

[A]

I've never seen that. It's so rare, it's funny as fuck. So now let's involve arca. You may have heard of arca. Everybody out there, if you're true crime enthusiasts, you have heard of arca. You had an assful of ARCA from the Karen Reed trials.

[B]

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

ARCA is the organization that does all these testing things here. And I believe they testified for the defense. I want to say that the crash did not happen with the man there. So that's in the Karen reed case. Now, Arca, Arcca was contacted in February 2011 to do a simulation at the Shermer residence, the former one where Jewel fell down the stairs. So the house was vacant during this time. It was up for sale. So perfect time, they said. It's hard to say how often we get called in on murder investigations, but this definitely isn't the first one we've been involved in during our 25 years in business. He said we conduct research as well as simulations for investigations in criminal and civil cases. For example, our work has led to the US army making seats to better protect personnel and vehicles from mine blasts, as well as better protection for people in the backs of ambulances. Oh, so that's good. They also did space shuttle work. They came up with better ways to protect astronauts. After these Challenger explosion of 86, did.

[B]

They come up with the tiles?

[A]

I think they probably figured it out. Also helped authorities locate the point of origin of TWA Flight 800's explosion over new York. After that, too, they employ more than 200 veteran engineers, experts and consultants with professional credentials and extensive experience in their chosen fields, according to their website. They said, we don't take any sides when we're involved in simulations for criminal cases. It's Usually for automobile accidents, though the dynamics of a simulated crash or fall usually aren't questioned. The findings can sometimes be disputed, such as how many times did the vehicle roll over or how hard was the impact. We look at the independent data, we remain objective, and we don't take any sides. Okay. He said, we've had some attorneys use our findings in trials, and others tell us they won't use our findings because it hurts their cases. But thing about this is too. I mean, I know I'm not questioning their organization, but I tend to anybody. Whoever's paying you is who's paying you.

[B]

Yeah, whoever's paying you is whose side you're on.

[A]

Now that makes sense, though. If they do sometimes come up with things where they say, we're not using your disc because it hurts us, then that means they're being. I think they seem like an honest organization to me, but, I mean, that's just for them to be not honest would be a crazy. Like. Like that would be crazy. I mean, that would ruin their whole everything. So the tests are months after this, the arrest and everything. Dr. Ross visits the house in Lebanon where Jule died. Investigators wanted to definitively find out about going down the stairs. A biomedical engineering firm, arca, carries this out. They covered the heads of crash test dummies in chalk so they could see where the head hit the stairs. Then they pushed the dummies down the same staircase multiple times with accelerometers inside the heads to measure impact forces. The results were, in every case, the same. The places struck on the dummy's head did not match Jules fracture patterns whatsoever at all. The test showed that a stair fall would produce brush burn abrasions, contusions, and scraping patterns from sliding contact with the steps.

[B]

No crushing.

[A]

Jewel had none of those.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The dummies also sustained significant forces that should have caused neck, rib and pelvic injuries. She didn't have any of that either. She had none of them. So they conclude that Jewel had been struck repeatedly on the head with a long cylindrical object. Just like Betty. Same weapon type. He said, wow. So now AB's defense attorney, he called the experiments junk science. That's it. He said, crash test dummies aren't designed for stairfall recreations. Got to make stair dummies for those.

[B]

Oh, you don't have those? Then get the fuck out of my face.

[A]

He said, to stage a realistic experience experiment, you would need a living person. But no one is going to risk a real life in this way. You don't need it. That's why we have Simul. Are you kidding me? We think humans.

[B]

Have you not seen Jackass? They exist.

[A]

Come on, you could have gotten anybody. You could have gotten those people.

[B]

Knoxville would have done it.

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure. No problem. If you shot him 08 when he got to the bottom of the stairs, they shot him in the nuts with a beanbag from a shotgun or something, then he would have done it. But up until that's not really a trek. So the lawyer said this simply wasn't scientific. It was silly. These were bad tests. This was junk science. When you look at anthropomorphic test dummies being pushed downstairs, they were not designed for this purpose. There's no scientific studies. There's no peer reviewed articles. There's nothing that accepts this. And they asked him, well, doesn't it make sense that you wouldn't push a person down the stairs to find out how they'd be injured? And I mean. And they said, well, you wouldn't push just a jog down the stairs to find out how a person was injured either. He said, all the test dummies showed in this case was that somebody who fell down those stairs could have hit their head multiple times. And that's what happened. Someone fell down the stairs and hit their head multiple times. All right, well, the state completely disagrees with that lawyer. And they reclassify Jules death as a homicide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And Jules, brother John said, in my opinion, the paramedics should have called in law enforcement. Yeah, absolutely. They said the police were not even called until Jewel was already at the hospital and he had already cleaned up the crime scene.

[B]

Yeah, it was already way too late.

[A]

So Julie, this is their daughter, Julie, Jule and Ab's daughter. She said I was angry. I'm still angry. You can tell I'm angry because I don't believe that. I don't believe that he can know she didn't fall down the steps and that her injuries aren't from that. And I just. I don't believe that. So the interviewer asks her, I have to ask you, what about the medical examiner who said that both your mother and Betty had remarkably similar wounds?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Julie said, oh, well, I actually don't believe them. One man is saying that who happens to be the medical examiner is the problem. I feel bad for Julie. Cause she's in a tough spot. Her mom's already gone, her stepmom's gone.

[B]

She's already mourned.

[A]

Now she's trying to keep her dad from going to prison. I get psychologically I get where Julie's coming from, but at some point you gotta step back and go, let everybody handle it. And the interviewer said, but he's the medical examiner, that's why he makes that call. And she said, I'm sorry, I just don't believe what he said. I just don't. I read something where it said my mom had 12 blows to her head. And I do not believe that to be true. Based on what? I don't know. She doesn't buy it.

[B]

I believe that to be true. Oh, Julie.

[A]

That's what it is. The prosecutor said our efforts were also involved in the death of the first wife. Because they were so similar. The injuries, the pattern of blows to the head, the type of weapon that would have been used. It was a small cylindrical object. We were pretty confident we could use some of that evidence as well, which we did. Lebanon then prompted, that's the town or the county prompted to file their own homicide charges against Arthur for the death of Jewel Shermer. And in September of 2012, he is absolutely indicted for Jewel's murder as well.

[B]

Okay. This was 2011 or 2012 that they're reversing. That's early for her to be getting into the conspiracy theory shit.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[B]

To not believe a doctor who's telling.

[A]

You there's skull fractures in the head. I see those and she's like, I don't believe it. I don't know. So they cited his arrogance, non cooperation and forensic parallels to the two wives. The defense attorney said the prosecutors and the police have asked repeatedly, what are the chances that two women married to the same guy would die in a similar fashion. Is this a coincidence? That's the question that the attorney has asked. And the attorney says it's a coincidence. People die. Coincidences happen. Accidents happen. They happen every day.

[B]

Happens all the time.

[A]

Yeah. So the murder, Betty's murder will be tried first here. The prosecutor, Mike Mancuso said it's gonna be a tough case. He said there's a lot of unknowns out there with the case. Cuz it was circumstantial. It's extremely circumstantial. So as a prosecutor building a case like that, you're not exactly sure all the little pieces of evidence that you need are gonna be admissible in court.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also they said that they wanna present Jules death in court as well. And they want that. That's a big one. And his defense attorney wants that out. The defense attorney said it's not fair.

[B]

Two wives.

[A]

No defense attorney said it's not fair. Yeah, which is a great legal argument. It's a great legal argument. Or if you're five and you're not gonna Popsicle one of the two. It's not fair.

[B]

A lot of ins and outs. A lot of what have yous and it's not fair.

[A]

Not fair. He said it's meant to get. It's not meant to get. Before the jury wasn't anything that was proved yet. It still had to be proven. Yet it has to. Yet. It still has yet to be proven. Even the allegations have nothing to do with this case. The prosecutor said, that's hogwash. It's relevant as proof of motive, identity, and in this case, most importantly, lack of accident. So the judge agreed and will allow evidence of Jules death to be brought in.

[B]

Fantastic. I gotta Google the origin of hogwash, by the way. That's a good one. I know what it means, but I don't know where the fuck I'm.

[A]

Hogwash. It's kind of like horrible horseshit. I guess it's just things laying around. A farm, people. Yeah, it's probably horseshit hogwash. I don't know.

[B]

It's probably cleaned up horseshit. Right.

[A]

Something. Or. Yeah, maybe.

[B]

Or Dag Rabbit or Dag Gummet.

[A]

The runoff from a washed hog. I'm not sure.

[B]

It's pretty gross.

[A]

Pretty gross. January 2013, Betty's murder trial. 11 days long. 60 witnesses, blood trails, reconstructions, all this shit. Okay. In the openings, Michael Mancuso calls Ab a wolf in shepherd's clothing.

[B]

Okay. Because he's a shepherd. Shepherd in the flock.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. A man who used his charm and magnetism and religious authority to prey upon the most vulnerable in his congregation. He said the Shermer case compels a great many images in my mind. Images of desperation and self destruction. Images of murder and deceit. Images of betrayal. The betrayal of a friend, of marriage vows of a mother to her children, of a faith and congregation. And finally, the image of a wolf in shepherd's clothing preying upon his own flock. That is some shit right there. Samantha testifies Cindy's daughter. Cindy and Joe's daughter. She described how Ab had infiltrated her family, seduced her mother, driven her father to despair, and destroyed everything she's known and loved her entire life. He is a swarm of locusts, is what he is. Essentially, she spoke directly to Ab from the witness box. She described his desire to be with Cindy and his need to get rid of his inconvenient wife. She talked about the affair, the fact that they gas lit her in that confrontation in the office, saying, you don't know what you're talking about. When she was 16, her father's.

[B]

You know what dirty talk is?

[A]

Yeah. Her father's final voicemail that she didn't even hear until he was dead the next morning, saying, if you love me even a little bit, call me.

[B]

Oh, Jesus.

[A]

The guilt she feels.

[B]

Yeah, she missed a call.

[A]

Horrifying when somebody does that. I had a similar thing happen and that I. Fucking fucks me up. Guy killed himself. Fucking texted me at 2:15. Can you talk right now? And I was going to sleep and I was like, I'm too tired. Next morning, he was dead.

[B]

Mine called. He was murdered, though.

[A]

Oh, that's different. Yeah, but he called. You weren't gonna stop.

[B]

He wanted me to go with him.

[A]

Oh, well, then that's a good thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. You're not dead. It's better one person than both of you.

[B]

I mean, that's some survivor's guilt. That could be. I could have been in a gutter with that kid. It's so fucked up, this.

[A]

I feel bad because my friend, I could have. Yeah. Yeah. If you know this, I'll tell you later about the details of that.

[B]

The fuck, James.

[A]

I could have. Cause I was piece of shit. The point is, I was there. Him and his girlfriend. I was somehow the relationship counselor. And I used to settle their shit. He was calling me because they were in a giant fight. And that was the problem. And it's a long story, but I could have spent 10 minutes and whatever, but I was just like, I'm so tired of doing this. And now I wish I could do that before I feel terrible. So anyway, that's how it goes now. Betty's son here, Betty Jean's son, Nate. He said when he heard about the crash, he rushed to the hospital. This is him testifying. The nurse told him, she's in pretty bad shape. Be prepared for what you're about to see. He continued the testimony, and he said that Ab seemed calm and relaxed during the time that his mother was in the hospital and said that Ab told him that he and Betty Jean had agreed that neither one would want to live on life support. And he also said that she wanted to be cremated. Now, he said his mother never mentioned either issue to him, so he just figured that must be what it is. He said he had spoken to his mother by phone on her birthday, June 28. He said she seemed distant and upset, but he said she wouldn't say if anything was bothering her.

[B]

All Right.

[A]

They show the pictures of Joe Musante's corpse on the monitor here. And that's when Ab closes his eyes and puts his head in his hands. Yeah.

[B]

Because of Joe.

[A]

He was stoic the whole time. And that's when he seemed real sad. Yeah.

[B]

Saw a man dead.

[A]

Saw a man dead in his office. That's my desk.

[B]

Those are my things.

[A]

Ab's friend, Ann Marie Thorson. Thorson Moe was a prosecution witness. Hinted at a possible motive when she testified that Ab told her that Betty had discovered he was having an affair with his secretary and gave him an ultimatum. End the relationship or they would get divorced. Yeah. So that we didn't know about that. She found out. And this woman said, he said he didn't want a divorce because he didn't want to lose half of everything. Cindy testifies. Yeah. They said, do you love the defendant? She said, I do. Yeah. That's how that goes. And then all the rest of the shit that we already talked about, but she said that on the stand. Ab testifies.

[B]

What's he say?

[A]

He's figuring, if I can move a congregation, I can move 12 people.

[B]

Oh, fuck. This is gonna be easy, like, Sunday morning.

[A]

He Amber heards this shit like a motherfucker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's overconfident of, I know what I'm doing and I can do this. And every time they ask him a question, he goes right at the jury, though.

[B]

Right to the jury.

[A]

Stares at them the whole time, which is the weirdest, most uncomfortable thing ever. The jury wants to observe you like a zoo animal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't want you staring at them back. You can glance over once in a while, like you're telling a conversation to multiple people, but you can't just stare at them and answer a question. It's weird.

[B]

You don't take the question over to them and answer it. That's what she did.

[A]

Every time the lawyer asks you a question, you look away from the person asking the question and then answer it to other people. Is a weird thing to do.

[B]

She thought that was a winning strategy, and so did he.

[A]

Well, they told her, I think, make sure to look at the jury. Make eye contact with the jury. Let them see emotion in your eyes. And she took that as stare at the jury the entire time and never break eye contact. Freak everybody out.

[B]

The epitome of misunderstanding.

[A]

Absolutely. And then once she did it, one day they were like, you gotta keep doing the same thing or else it looks like you change it up. It's weird. So they said he repositioned his chair to face the jury directly, which is creepy. Oh, my God, Very creepy. He said, I didn't stage an event. Not I didn't kill my wife. I didn't stage an event, which is a very big minimum. Now it's not even hurting her now. It's staging an event.

[B]

She's not even there in that scenario.

[A]

He said she undid her seatbelt. A deer appeared. He swerved. He said he cradled his dying wife. And he said he was alone, lost and scared. He talked about the wood pile story of how the blood got there, modifying it to better fit the evidence. Now only Betty had been cut by the wood when it fell from the stack. He said he got cut, too, last time. He explained the blood trail by saying she'd initially walked toward the garage's bay door, then turned back and exited through the back door to the kitchen, where he tended the wound. Of course, he took care of it. And the prosecutor said, that's pretty absurd why she would change direction in her own garage. It's not lost. She knows where she is. When asked about the cremation, he said it was her wish. Betty's sisters had said she was against cremation. When asked about the urn decorated with a deer, the animal that he claims caused the death. This is fucking amazing. He said, quote, betty loved deer.

[B]

Bravo, sir.

[A]

Loved deer. Betty loved deer, man. And at that moment, I thought it would be meaningful. It's meaningful, all right. Big Benny laughed at 15 years later by two idiot comedians. It's meaningful.

[B]

Everything with deer in it. She can't get enough.

[A]

She loves it. He admitted to the adultery, admitted he lied about the affair, and he told the jury that although he looks fine on the outside, he's, quote, crying on the inside. This guy is amazing. This is wild inside.

[B]

I'm crying, you, Honor. I can't stop.

[A]

I can't stop. And the prosecutor, as you might imagine, is real sarcastic and shitty to him the whole time, obviously. And so these ask him, didn't you purposely do this and clean up? And they said, betty didn't die in that simple crash. Isn't that right? And he said, no, sir, and then explained the blood and the falling wood and all that bullshit. But he did say they had not had sex in a number of years because she'd been through menopause and wasn't interested. He admitted viewing pornography on his home computer and cheated on his wife. Okay. This is how the DA Mancuso, the district attorney, would later talk about his testimony. Abs Shermer did nothing to alter the mood of the trial. If anything, his direct testimony hurt him. The tone and affect were not credible, the substance even less so. He came across as real hollow and wooden. It seemed rehearsed. There wasn't much empathy, and I don't think he had it in him. So it was hard for the jury to relate that if this was an accident, why can't he express himself in a more genuine way? He also became instantly more defensive and inward in cross examination. In fact, after he testified, he was walking away from the courtroom and told one of the sheriff's deputies that he had just given himself life in prison and he knew he didn't do well for himself on the stand. That's the thing. If you're a performer. You know when you bombed. That's the other thing.

[B]

Yeah. You know, when it didn't go. Now you. Amber heard.

[A]

Knew. Yeah. She knew because she's a performer. If it's your second open mic, you heard three laughs, you think you did great. If you've been doing comedy 10 years and you eat dicks, you know you ate dicks.

[B]

You know how it feels. Yeah.

[A]

Exactly what you did out there. So even if you did well, you know, it wasn't as well as it should have been. That's what he knows.

[B]

And if you're testifying, you know the response you're hoping to get.

[A]

Yeah. Especially if you're looking in their eyes.

[B]

Yeah. If you don't feel what you're like me to you.

[A]

We're here.

[B]

It's immediate.

[A]

We're the same fucking distance he was. We're fucking six feet away from each other.

[B]

If you're not. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

[A]

Yeah. Wow, 90 minutes of deliberation.

[B]

That's pretty quick.

[A]

Yeah, that's not bad. Foundation. Guilty of first degree murder and tampering as well.

[B]

Okay, just in one.

[A]

Just Betty's. Yeah. And the sentencing. You, Pastor asshole, may fuck off. Mandatory life without parole.

[B]

Oh, dang.

[A]

Because it's first degree plus an aggravator.

[B]

Mandatory life. You need a chaplain somewhere else, dickhead.

[A]

You get a lot of people to. A lot of people to fucking 10ft in there. Lots of flock in there. Go shepherd them now. Betty's sister said, I'm happy that justice was served for our sister Betts. Let's put it that way. And then the other sister said, I just hope he suffers and I hope he's in a lot of pain and rots in there. I love that so much. I thought she was gonna say, I Hope my sister rests in peace. I hope he just. Rottanelli's a lot of pain. Fuck him. She said she was.

[B]

She's pretty amazing, right?

[A]

I love it. I think it's great. She was the absolute sweetest person ever. She never said a bad thing about anybody. Sandy said. The prosecutor, by the way, kept calling him the Sinister Minister, which is phenomenal. Also the name of an ECW character from the late 90s, early 2000s, but that's fine. He's the guy who fucked his hand all up by blowing ass.

[B]

I hope that he gets gingivitis and every tooth rots out of his head.

[A]

Just out of his head. It's just he. He can't eat anything crunchy. That's what I hope. Samantha said. I expected to be happy, but it was actually. It was really difficult. At the end of the day, it doesn't bring back my dad and it doesn't bring back Betty. Joe's sister Rose, remember her? The person who did all this? She said, I think that he finds vulnerable people and he grooms them for himself. And he gets pleasure out of this. Yeah, he's humping them. Absolutely. His defense attorney said, quote, he hasn't been the best person, but he's not a murderer. I mean, he's not a great guy or nothing.

[B]

I mean, you're wrong, but. Okay.

[A]

Okay. June 2014. He's gonna have to go to trial for Jules murder, too. You bet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He pleads no contest. Cause this one's coming up and he's life without parole. So what's the difference at this point?

[B]

Yeah, life without parole for murdering your wife. We're gonna talk about that other time that your other wife died. This is coming up in this trial.

[A]

It's gonna happen. He pleads no contest to third degree murder. Oh, what is that, by the way? He said he's not guilty. He only took the deal to spare his daughters from enduring another trial. Now, in the sentencing, his two daughters and their husbands pled for leniency. His son said to us, it's impossible to believe he's a killer. AB said, I loved her and she loved me. We did make beautiful music together. I cannot look at my children and grandchildren without seeing her. I did not kill Jewel. I was not the best husband or the best father or the best pastor, but I'm not a murderer. Okay. The judge said, are you the kind, loving, always caring person or the multiple adulterer living a double life?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he said, they talked about he didn't have a prior record that they were trying to do for mitigating. The judge says he does have a prior record. He's convicted in Monroe County. A jury said, you are a murderer. You're the first person I've ever sentenced for criminal homicide who has a prior homicide conviction. You're the worst guy I've ever sentenced.

[B]

But I'm not a murderer. You're literally serving life without for murder.

[A]

Unbelievable. And then the judge said, you can keep going on saying you never murdered your wife. He said, but doesn't really matter, he said, because you, sir, may fuck off. 20 to 40 years consecutive to the life without parole.

[B]

Suck it.

[A]

And a $50,000 fine in case he's got any money in the bank to eat dicks. Yeah. Betty's sister Tina said, it's closure. A.B. shermer will die in prison. And that's what I was after. And her other sister said, I can't help but think he should have been put away in 1999 and I would have my dear sister with me. Also a fact. Prosecutor described him as a coward and a murderer and everything like that. February 2013, there was a two hour Dateline episode on this.

[B]

Oh boy.

[A]

They doubled up.

[B]

An hour each, huh?

[A]

An hour each? Yeah. There's two murders. February 2013, he was transferred to the State Correctional Institution at green in Waynesburg, Pennsylvania. 2014, he appeals the conviction, saying that Jules death or the details of Joe's suicide shouldn't have been presented at trial. Among other different issues that we'll get into. We don't have time to get into the legalities of it, but there's a bunch of points. Here's the crazy part we have to end with. Cindy still visited him. She stayed with him.

[B]

She was next.

[A]

Continued to visit him in prison, depositing $600 a month in his commissary fund. She never married him, but considers herself his wife. Wow. She's also become a surrogate mother to Amy and Julie, his two daughters, and visits them and their children. They all believe AB is innocent. Wow.

[B]

I suppose. I mean, that's who you want.

[A]

I guess they're gonna be delusional together, the three of them.

[B]

I guess.

[A]

Fine. I feel bad for the daughters. I don't feel bad for Cindy. She does better.

[B]

Do you let that woman around your kids?

[A]

Who's to stop them from their kids?

[B]

Julie?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not me, but they think everybody's innocent, so why wouldn't they? She's a poorly almost. Yeah.

[B]

Julie didn't even want this to be a murder.

[A]

Samantha says this what Is my relationship with my mother? None. We have no relationship at all. She's simply not the same person anymore. She wasn't the mother who raised me. My deepest wish is for Cindy to truly see Arthur. To witness his authentic self, the man he truly is.

[B]

She took the other daughters because Sam left her.

[A]

Yeah. Sam wouldn't talk to her anymore.

[B]

Good for you, Sam.

[A]

The detective said Mr. Shermer didn't pull the trigger, but he's responsible for Joe Musante's death. There are three deaths on his hands. I believe Joe was sending a message to us in law enforcement that there was something shady happening with his family because that's why he did it in the church, probably. They also asked the detective, how close do you think he came to getting away with murder? And the detective said, very, very close. If not for Rose Cobb, she put this case into a little ball and showed us from the very start what kind of person A.B. shermer was. And Rose says, I'm only doing what he couldn't do for himself. Meaning my brother couldn't do that. It's fucking horrible. They love Cindy, by the way. His daughters, AB's daughters. June 2017. The Supreme Court denies to review his case.

[B]

Good.

[A]

The medical examiner, just to close out this case, says science doesn't lie. But people do routinely lie for many reasons. But truth is always on the body and in the body. You just have to find it.

[B]

You know what else, James? It's a sin.

[A]

It's a sin. Yeah. Another source is CBS 48 Hours. Did some interviews that I got a lot of quotes from there too. So it's a sin. That's fucking great. So there you go. There is Jackson Township, Pennsylvania. We will get through the ending real quick here. Head over to shut upandgivememurder.com definitely. Also Rate and review on whatever or listen to the podcast or on Netflix or whatever. And definitely do that. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets, come see us at a live show. The live shows are incredible. We are comedians. You're going to leave laughing. It's not a college lecture or any bullshit like that. It's a comedy show with a murder. That would be February 21st in Nashville is the first show of the year. Come hang out with us. March 6th in Durham, North Carolina. March 7th in Atlanta. And there's a you stupid opinion show. March 21st in Phoenix. There's a couple of your stupid or there's a couple of small town murder shows sold out around that. So we'll do that. Definitely do that. Get yourself patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports. That's where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get everything we put out. That's hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, One Small Town Murder. This week is no different for crime and sports. Dead Cyclists, Part two. Crazy. That was a crazy first one. So you know, that's gonna be fun. Small Town Murder. Let's get into the Kurt Cobain death. There's some new investigative stuff.

[B]

What's the whole theory?

[A]

We all have our own opinions here and we're gonna get into it and find out. We love a nebulous conspiracy theory episode. We're gonna do that. That's patreon.com crimeinsports and you get all the shows we get. We do ad free. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people in the world who would never ever, ever do any of this shit to us here. Let me hear about him right now.

[B]

This executive producer, Gary Howard in Livingston, Texas. Unemployed, looking for work.

[A]

Somebody hire Gary, dammit. He knows how to pack a truck in anywhere. He can do it.

[B]

Yeah, he's great.

[A]

Do it for us.

[B]

Stop. Don't send us any more money till you get a goddamn job. Gary.

[A]

Yeah, we feel terrible.

[B]

We are fucking shit, man.

[A]

Well, thanks, man.

[B]

I'll mention it every week too, to get you.

[A]

Yeah, somebody hire Gary, God damn it.

[B]

And we're gonna say it every week until we hear that he's got a job. Nicole Benson also. Thank you guys for doing what you're doing. You're the best. Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender. Happy Hour checking in Midland, Texas. I think he's home. Janice Hill. Melanie Highsmith. James Pinson. Kabri Stanton. Becky Ireland. Heather Walker. MacKenzie. Ray Eccleston. Nancy Combs. Ben Gooden. Remy Remy. Remy Crowley. Ferenga. Bethany Pritchett. Lindsay S. Nuuly Burma. Yep. Cindy Morgan. J. Mu Cath. Kelly Gleason. Sharon Diaz. Chris M. Abby with no last name. Brookhurst with no last name. Corey Yell with no last name. Tommy with no last name. Ryu Ru Rodriguez. Katherine Boyd. Candice Sullivan. Rachel Morgan. Charles Sutton. Oh, that's Dutton. Charles S. Dutton is what I was confused with in my head, but it is not. Plus, I think Charles S. Dutton is dead.

[A]

I think he is dead.

[B]

I think that's true. Linda Barnes. Peytonic Jessica Witherly Catchy Kachi Asiagbunum Asigbunam Cocky Catchy Catchy Anna Bailey Rosie Brunson Joni Johnny Nathan I think it's Joni Nathan Peter Lorson Larson Tom Woodon Last time Diana Deaneira Sanchez Diana Eric Macbeth Jacob Debrazinski Emily Ward MNJ 1193 Emily with no last name Bradley German or German Bridget with no last name Brigitte possibly Tricia Jenner Jessica would no last name Kelly Owens Runa Fox Sandra Sellers SMT Mr. Moose Steve in Hawaii Jose Sebastian Heather Hand Nope, that. That's Amber. Why would I ever confuse her names? Amber Hansen, Britt Mejia, Jean John Gian McPherson I think it's Jean. Jess Brasher, Rose Williams Stacy with no last name Jackie with no last name Ragjitsu on Instagram Rachel Coro Aaron Taylor Lily Love Moon April Grant Dirty Frogs Angela Saunders Doc Holliday Tim with no last name Lauren with no last name Maria Mariah Mariah Maxfield Maddie Porterfield Kerry Bussey Bussey Brendan Clancy Mike McCartney Jordan with no last name Dennis Peterson Amber Starkey Marcus Delgado Michela Michaela Ficello Marissa Caramico Casey Tran Brian McDonald Tracy with no last name the letter S. Sarah Norman Victoria Sarnay Alex Alexis. Alexis Alexis Kerrs Jennifer with no last name Alyssa with no last name Kelvin Mann, Cassandra Clark, Fred M. Emily Parton, Dean K. Tanner Cutler, Winter Steinway, Rachel Smith, Vanessa Bundle and all of our patrons. You're the best. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you everybody so much. You fantastic, wonderful bastards. We appreciate appreciate all that you do for us. If you want to follow us on social media, shut upandgivemerder.com is where the drop down menus are. It'll take you to tickets and social media and everywhere you need to go. Keep hanging out with us, keep coming back and until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Small Town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. But potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hey everybody listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad. But not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes. Come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now starting at with February 21st in Nashville March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to your stupid opinions. On the 21st of March, Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2nd. May 29th, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30th, we have September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th Minneapolis, October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th in San Jose, October 7th 17th in Sacramento, November 13th in Tarrytown. November 14th in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some new friends like crazy. And make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and givememurder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[B]

See you on the road.