Smart Girl Dumb Questions

Episode: How Does Music Work? with Gen Z Mozart Jacob Collier
Host: Nayeema Raza
Guest: Jacob Collier
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Nayeema Raza invites the brilliant and playful Jacob Collier—seven-time Grammy Award-winning musician and oft-dubbed "Gen Z Mozart"—for a deep-dive into the nature of music, creativity, and the human experience. From demystifying music’s technical aspects to reflecting on creative collaboration, community, AI, and family, Collier and Raza riff with curiosity and laughter, making musical concepts tangible, joyful, and universal.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debunking Labels and Embracing "Wiggle"

• Jacob jokes about being called "Gen Z Mozart," clarifying, “I'm not actually Mozart. The whole thing's completely wrong... I’m technically a millennial, I suppose.” (00:30)
• Collier demonstrates his affinity for "wiggle"—the playful manipulation of musical notes, often using pitch wheels or the “wiggly” Nord 4 keyboard.

“My whole thing is being wiggly. I'm a master wiggler.” — Jacob Collier (02:19)

• The conversation sets a casual, humorous, and anti-perfectionist tone.

2. Universal Musicality and Permission

• Raza reflects on feeling musically inept as a child and asks for empathy.
• Collier encourages everyone to enjoy music regardless of skill:

“I don't think you need any awareness of it or skills with it to enjoy it. The first step... is to love it, to enjoy it. And that's something you need no qualifications for at all.” (03:30)

• Discussion of how even “simple” instruments like the triangle are culturally significant and technically demanding.

3. Translating Emotion Into Sound (Live Demonstrations)

• Raza challenges Collier to musically express six primary emotions:
  • Happiness: (04:01)
  • Sadness: “Sadness doesn't wiggle.” (04:22)
  • Fear, Surprise, Anger, Disgust: Explores how context, consonance, and dissonance convey feeling:

“Disgust is about context more than, like, something in its own right... Something disgusting feels, like, somewhat surprising... also somewhat dissonant... like a mouthful.” — Jacob (05:58)

4. Early Inspiration and the All-Encompassing Nature of Music

• Collier discusses his multi-faceted love for music, from symmetry to humor to mathematical structure.

“Music is such a hybrid form… all the best parts of life you find in music.” (07:47)

• Early musical influences: Stevie Wonder, Bach, Bobby McFerrin, Freddie Mercury (09:21)
• Music as improvisation and self-discovery: “It’s like prompting yourself, like asking a question and seeing what comes out.”

5. Audience as Instrument: Community, Participation, and Presence

• Collier describes his live performance style: conducting the audience to create spontaneous, collaborative music moments.

“It’s a verb, not a noun… Even if you’re listening, you’re doing it… Most of the audience choir works on permission rather than skill.” (10:02–11:42)

• Noted for creating a plug-in instrument from recordings of live crowds.
• Raza and Collier discuss how different cities and cultures bring different energy and attention.

“You can have a really quiet, attentive audience, or a really loud, inattentive audience… my job is to surf this wave.” (13:52)

• On presence and distraction:

“I’ve never told people not to have phones out, but I think they just have a feeling they’d rather be there.” (14:25)

6. Family Influence & The Power of Inclusion

• Collier’s mother, Susie Collier, a unique and inclusive conductor, modeled joy, flexibility, and human connection in music.

“She’s so supple, she’s so wiggly, she’s so inclusive. She meets people where they are…” (15:30)

• Jacob never felt pressured to become a musician, but was always encouraged to be himself.

“I didn’t need to be a musician to be valued… I needed to be Jacob.” (17:20)

7. Music Theory Lightning Round: Rhythm, Melody, Harmony

Rhythm:

“Rhythm is our relationship to time… Everything comes from the body.” (19:09)

Melody:

• Derives from language and culture. African and European languages influence how music is phrased.

Harmony:

“Harmony is just about the relationship between things. It’s saying, let’s have this note and this note and this note all together… It’s like, all the colors are there.” (25:46)

• Explains context’s power to transform even “spiky” or unpleasant chords.

“You can make something sound beautiful by putting it in a particular context. As much a life lesson as a musical one.” (28:44)

8. Creativity, Constraints, and the New Album: “Light for Days”

• Collier describes a new creative method: self-imposed constraints—one instrument (5-string guitar) and four days to record an entire record.

“You can get infinity out of infinity... but you can also get infinity out of finity. And that was what this album was for me.” (41:30–42:18)

• The album celebrates light, presence, and creative spontaneity.
• Embracing looser, scrappier live recording to keep the “wiggle.”

9. Musicianship, Instruments, and Body Sensation

• Instruments evoke different physical sensations; Collier playfully discusses “wenis milking” (the skin on the elbow) with sibling affection. (48:01)
• Genius vs. “Scenius”: The collective genius of community trumps the solo genius myth.

“Any singular brilliant person... is the culmination of the people who inspired them... ‘Scenius’ feels more interesting than genius.” (51:08)

10. Openness and Sharing Knowledge

• Collier credits his mother’s teaching style for his desire to demystify music.

“The best explanations make really complicated things feel really simple. I love that challenge.” (53:06)

• On explaining: “You can over-explain something to yourself and then it dies… and you can also under-explain and not fully understand it.” (54:07)

11. Art, AI, and Infinity

• On AI-generated music/art:

“Infinity doesn't make something interesting… Infinite competence doesn’t lead to something being compelling.” (33:54)

• Fears AI’s energy consumption and centralized control but is more excited to focus on the unpredictable, “wiggly,” and idiosyncratic elements of art that technology can’t easily imitate.

“Maybe our freedom is in being really unpredictable right now in a very algorithmic space.” (35:00)

12. Community & Collaboration

• Discussion of Collier’s “Hideaway” retreat—bringing hundreds together for music, learning, and connection. Community persists and deepens creativity. (60:13–61:44)
• Favorite potential collaborations: Rosalia, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar. (62:00)

13. Personal Reflections: Family, Grief, and Infinity

• On parental relationships:

“The sooner you recognize that everyone is just a flawed human, the better… If you’re lucky enough to have someone who loves you unconditionally, that’s the biggest gift.” (65:02)

• Raza shares about staying connected to her father after his passing:

“After he’s passed, I still feel these moments of great connection… The quality of the time we created together…” (67:07)

• Collier: “That’s a really healthy form of infinity.” (67:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music's Universality:

“I think the first step as a musician or as a human who’s interested in music is to love it, is to enjoy it. And that’s something you need no qualifications for at all.” – Jacob (03:30)

• On Conducting the Audience:

“It’s like a big gesture-controlled musical instrument… if I point up, they move the note up… but I also change the vowel sound with my mouth.” – Jacob (11:09)

• On the Role of Limitation:

“You can get infinity out of finity.” – Jacob (41:35)

• On AI and the Value of Imperfection:

“The better [AI] got at following orders, the less interesting it became… there’s a threshold where if something has absolutely no skill whatsoever, it means nothing. If it has too much skill, it’s too overt to be true.” — Jacob (37:28)

• On Community (“Scenius”):

“Scenius… the genius of the collective… way more interesting musically than we are as a group than when we’re totally in isolation.” — Jacob (51:08)

Important Timestamps

• 00:30 – Debunking the "Gen Z Mozart" label
• 03:30–04:23 – On universal access to music and the triangle as a difficult instrument
• 04:01–06:51 – Translating emotions into music
• 07:47–08:28 – Music as a convergence of mathematics, language, humor, physics
• 10:02–11:42 – Audience as instrument: conducting and choir
• 13:51 – Different audience energies: Texas vs. Santiago
• 14:25–15:16 – Why Collier never bans phones but people stay present
• 15:21–17:12 – Collier’s mother as role model; inclusivity in music
• 19:09–26:14 – The music theory lightning round: rhythm, melody, harmony
• 27:03–28:44 – Dissonance, context, and life lessons from harmony
• 33:34–36:05 – On AI, infinity, and the value of unpredictability
• 41:30–42:18 – New album “Light For Days”: the power of creative constraint
• 53:05 – On learning and sharing knowledge; demystifying music
• 60:13–61:57 – Hideaway retreat: community building in music
• 62:00 – Dream collaborations: Rosalia, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar
• 65:02 – Family relationships: on accepting imperfection and appreciating unconditional love
• 67:37–67:40 – The infinity of connection after loss

Summary Takeaways

• Music is for everyone—appreciation and participation require no expertise.
• Emotions can be translated directly into musical motifs; even “simple” sounds have complex cultural value.
• Creative limitation can be a pathway to invention and depth (“infinity out of finity”).
• Presence, community, and unpredictability are the most vital elements of compelling art—especially in an age of AI and algorithmic production.
• Sharing knowledge and making art accessible deepens both the craft and connection with others.
• Lasting human connection, even in absence, is a form of “healthy infinity.”

Final Reflections

This episode is a joyful, wiggly, and disarmingly insightful exploration of music and humanity. Collier’s playful, generous explanations and Raza’s wide-eyed (if “dumb question”) curiosity make even complex topics inviting. Their mutual respect and vulnerability create a space where listeners can wonder, learn, and feel—all the core elements that make music (and life) work.