How Does Music Work? with Gen Z Mozart Jacob Collier

Summary

Smart Girl Dumb Questions

Episode: How Does Music Work? with Gen Z Mozart Jacob Collier
Host: Nayeema Raza
Guest: Jacob Collier
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Nayeema Raza invites the brilliant and playful Jacob Collier—seven-time Grammy Award-winning musician and oft-dubbed "Gen Z Mozart"—for a deep-dive into the nature of music, creativity, and the human experience. From demystifying music’s technical aspects to reflecting on creative collaboration, community, AI, and family, Collier and Raza riff with curiosity and laughter, making musical concepts tangible, joyful, and universal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debunking Labels and Embracing "Wiggle"

• Jacob jokes about being called "Gen Z Mozart," clarifying, “I'm not actually Mozart. The whole thing's completely wrong... I’m technically a millennial, I suppose.” (00:30)
• Collier demonstrates his affinity for "wiggle"—the playful manipulation of musical notes, often using pitch wheels or the “wiggly” Nord 4 keyboard.

“My whole thing is being wiggly. I'm a master wiggler.” — Jacob Collier (02:19)

• The conversation sets a casual, humorous, and anti-perfectionist tone.

2. Universal Musicality and Permission

• Raza reflects on feeling musically inept as a child and asks for empathy.
• Collier encourages everyone to enjoy music regardless of skill:

“I don't think you need any awareness of it or skills with it to enjoy it. The first step... is to love it, to enjoy it. And that's something you need no qualifications for at all.” (03:30)

• Discussion of how even “simple” instruments like the triangle are culturally significant and technically demanding.

3. Translating Emotion Into Sound (Live Demonstrations)

• Raza challenges Collier to musically express six primary emotions:
  • Happiness: (04:01)
  • Sadness: “Sadness doesn't wiggle.” (04:22)
  • Fear, Surprise, Anger, Disgust: Explores how context, consonance, and dissonance convey feeling:

“Disgust is about context more than, like, something in its own right... Something disgusting feels, like, somewhat surprising... also somewhat dissonant... like a mouthful.” — Jacob (05:58)

4. Early Inspiration and the All-Encompassing Nature of Music

• Collier discusses his multi-faceted love for music, from symmetry to humor to mathematical structure.

“Music is such a hybrid form… all the best parts of life you find in music.” (07:47)

• Early musical influences: Stevie Wonder, Bach, Bobby McFerrin, Freddie Mercury (09:21)
• Music as improvisation and self-discovery: “It’s like prompting yourself, like asking a question and seeing what comes out.”

5. Audience as Instrument: Community, Participation, and Presence

• Collier describes his live performance style: conducting the audience to create spontaneous, collaborative music moments.

“It’s a verb, not a noun… Even if you’re listening, you’re doing it… Most of the audience choir works on permission rather than skill.” (10:02–11:42)

• Noted for creating a plug-in instrument from recordings of live crowds.
• Raza and Collier discuss how different cities and cultures bring different energy and attention.

“You can have a really quiet, attentive audience, or a really loud, inattentive audience… my job is to surf this wave.” (13:52)

• On presence and distraction:

“I’ve never told people not to have phones out, but I think they just have a feeling they’d rather be there.” (14:25)

6. Family Influence & The Power of Inclusion

• Collier’s mother, Susie Collier, a unique and inclusive conductor, modeled joy, flexibility, and human connection in music.

“She’s so supple, she’s so wiggly, she’s so inclusive. She meets people where they are…” (15:30)

• Jacob never felt pressured to become a musician, but was always encouraged to be himself.

“I didn’t need to be a musician to be valued… I needed to be Jacob.” (17:20)

7. Music Theory Lightning Round: Rhythm, Melody, Harmony

Rhythm:

“Rhythm is our relationship to time… Everything comes from the body.” (19:09)

Melody:

• Derives from language and culture. African and European languages influence how music is phrased.

Harmony:

“Harmony is just about the relationship between things. It’s saying, let’s have this note and this note and this note all together… It’s like, all the colors are there.” (25:46)

• Explains context’s power to transform even “spiky” or unpleasant chords.

“You can make something sound beautiful by putting it in a particular context. As much a life lesson as a musical one.” (28:44)

8. Creativity, Constraints, and the New Album: “Light for Days”

• Collier describes a new creative method: self-imposed constraints—one instrument (5-string guitar) and four days to record an entire record.

“You can get infinity out of infinity... but you can also get infinity out of finity. And that was what this album was for me.” (41:30–42:18)

• The album celebrates light, presence, and creative spontaneity.
• Embracing looser, scrappier live recording to keep the “wiggle.”

9. Musicianship, Instruments, and Body Sensation

• Instruments evoke different physical sensations; Collier playfully discusses “wenis milking” (the skin on the elbow) with sibling affection. (48:01)
• Genius vs. “Scenius”: The collective genius of community trumps the solo genius myth.

“Any singular brilliant person... is the culmination of the people who inspired them... ‘Scenius’ feels more interesting than genius.” (51:08)

10. Openness and Sharing Knowledge

• Collier credits his mother’s teaching style for his desire to demystify music.

“The best explanations make really complicated things feel really simple. I love that challenge.” (53:06)

• On explaining: “You can over-explain something to yourself and then it dies… and you can also under-explain and not fully understand it.” (54:07)

11. Art, AI, and Infinity

• On AI-generated music/art:

“Infinity doesn't make something interesting… Infinite competence doesn’t lead to something being compelling.” (33:54)

• Fears AI’s energy consumption and centralized control but is more excited to focus on the unpredictable, “wiggly,” and idiosyncratic elements of art that technology can’t easily imitate.

“Maybe our freedom is in being really unpredictable right now in a very algorithmic space.” (35:00)

12. Community & Collaboration

• Discussion of Collier’s “Hideaway” retreat—bringing hundreds together for music, learning, and connection. Community persists and deepens creativity. (60:13–61:44)
• Favorite potential collaborations: Rosalia, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar. (62:00)

13. Personal Reflections: Family, Grief, and Infinity

• On parental relationships:

“The sooner you recognize that everyone is just a flawed human, the better… If you’re lucky enough to have someone who loves you unconditionally, that’s the biggest gift.” (65:02)

• Raza shares about staying connected to her father after his passing:

“After he’s passed, I still feel these moments of great connection… The quality of the time we created together…” (67:07)

• Collier: “That’s a really healthy form of infinity.” (67:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music's Universality:

“I think the first step as a musician or as a human who’s interested in music is to love it, is to enjoy it. And that’s something you need no qualifications for at all.” – Jacob (03:30)

• On Conducting the Audience:

“It’s like a big gesture-controlled musical instrument… if I point up, they move the note up… but I also change the vowel sound with my mouth.” – Jacob (11:09)

• On the Role of Limitation:

“You can get infinity out of finity.” – Jacob (41:35)

• On AI and the Value of Imperfection:

“The better [AI] got at following orders, the less interesting it became… there’s a threshold where if something has absolutely no skill whatsoever, it means nothing. If it has too much skill, it’s too overt to be true.” — Jacob (37:28)

• On Community (“Scenius”):

“Scenius… the genius of the collective… way more interesting musically than we are as a group than when we’re totally in isolation.” — Jacob (51:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:30 – Debunking the "Gen Z Mozart" label
• 03:30–04:23 – On universal access to music and the triangle as a difficult instrument
• 04:01–06:51 – Translating emotions into music
• 07:47–08:28 – Music as a convergence of mathematics, language, humor, physics
• 10:02–11:42 – Audience as instrument: conducting and choir
• 13:51 – Different audience energies: Texas vs. Santiago
• 14:25–15:16 – Why Collier never bans phones but people stay present
• 15:21–17:12 – Collier’s mother as role model; inclusivity in music
• 19:09–26:14 – The music theory lightning round: rhythm, melody, harmony
• 27:03–28:44 – Dissonance, context, and life lessons from harmony
• 33:34–36:05 – On AI, infinity, and the value of unpredictability
• 41:30–42:18 – New album “Light For Days”: the power of creative constraint
• 53:05 – On learning and sharing knowledge; demystifying music
• 60:13–61:57 – Hideaway retreat: community building in music
• 62:00 – Dream collaborations: Rosalia, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar
• 65:02 – Family relationships: on accepting imperfection and appreciating unconditional love
• 67:37–67:40 – The infinity of connection after loss

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Summary Takeaways

• Music is for everyone—appreciation and participation require no expertise.
• Emotions can be translated directly into musical motifs; even “simple” sounds have complex cultural value.
• Creative limitation can be a pathway to invention and depth (“infinity out of finity”).
• Presence, community, and unpredictability are the most vital elements of compelling art—especially in an age of AI and algorithmic production.
• Sharing knowledge and making art accessible deepens both the craft and connection with others.
• Lasting human connection, even in absence, is a form of “healthy infinity.”

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Final Reflections

This episode is a joyful, wiggly, and disarmingly insightful exploration of music and humanity. Collier’s playful, generous explanations and Raza’s wide-eyed (if “dumb question”) curiosity make even complex topics inviting. Their mutual respect and vulnerability create a space where listeners can wonder, learn, and feel—all the core elements that make music (and life) work.

Transcript

[A]

That's what they say on stage. Two, two, one, two.

[B]

Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. Can we all be musicians? I'm Nae Ma Raza. This is Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. And today my guest is Jacob Collier. He's the seven time Grammy Award winning singer and songwriter who has been dubbed the Mozart of Gen Z. But you're not actually Gen Z and.

[A]

I'm not actually Mozart. The whole thing's completely wrong.

[B]

It's not totally wrong, though.

[A]

Well, I'm technically a millennial, I suppose. I think I'm sort of slightly on the cusp of those two eras. But, yeah, I didn't really pay much attention to that as a kid.

[B]

Have you literally won a Grammy for each of your first five albums?

[A]

That is the case.

[B]

And now you have a sixth album?

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

It might be my favorite light for days. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's really nice to hear. Thank you very much.

[B]

And we're gonna talk about that in the creative process. But before we do this, I just want you to play a little bit of music.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Whatever you're inclined to play.

[A]

O.

[B]

Whatever you think will set the stage. Sam. Oh, my gosh. What inspired you to play that?

[A]

I don't know. I've been enjoying recently with the. With these keyboards, the idea of a pitch wheel.

[B]

Every time you're playing, you're like reaching to the left of the keyboard of.

[A]

This Nord 4, so tickling the notes a little bit. So you have a note like this and you can just go. And it goes. It just like wakes it up a little bit.

[B]

That's good for you. Because your whole thing is being wiggly.

[A]

It is being wiggly. I'm a master wiggler.

[B]

That's like a wiggly thing on the nord. Did they make that for you?

[A]

Literally what it is. I like playing real pianos, but one of the benefits of playing unreal pianos is that you get to wiggle the notes.

[B]

Is there anything that you're bad at, Gen Z? Mozart?

[A]

Oh, so many things.

[B]

Like what are you terrible at?

[A]

Oh, gosh. Like cooking, for example. Cooking? Yeah. I'm not good at that at all.

[B]

Okay. So I want you to take all, like, the empathy you have for yourself being a terrible cook, and give it to me for being really bad at music.

[A]

Okay. All right. Okay.

[B]

When I was growing up, like, in world music class, they gave me the triangle. And then an Indonesian music class, because I grew up in Jakarta, they gave me the gong.

[A]

The gong?

[B]

Yeah. Because it was like the only thing you had to play one time in the whole song.

[A]

The Triangle's hard. In Brazil, the triangle is quite an advanced thing to do because you have to sort of mute it and unmute it.

[B]

You can mute it. Unmute it by twisting your wrist.

[A]

Yeah. I don't exactly know how they do it, but basically you sort of hang it from a string or you hold it and you can go like. So if you say, oh, I'm a triangulist in Brazil, that's actually really impressive.

[B]

It might be that I'm destined to be a triangulist in Brazil.

[A]

Triangulate it.

[B]

Triangulating. Or what is the thing? But music is so universal. Even though I'm crummy at it, I appreciate it.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think it can tickle anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think you need any awareness of it or skills with it to enjoy it. I think the first step as a musician or as a human who's interested in music is to love it, is to enjoy it. And that's something you need no qualifications for at all.

[B]

Can we do a thing where you just play a few bars of music or if you are inclined, grab your guitar? But, like, if I'm going to name the six dominant human emotions and can you play those?

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure. Let's do it.

[B]

Okay. Happiness.

[A]

Happiness.

[B]

Okay. Sadness.

[A]

I knew that was coming.

[B]

No, You didn't wiggle the sadness.

[A]

No, I didn't.

[B]

Sadness doesn't wiggle.

[A]

No, no, no, no. It usually doesn't.

[B]

Fear. See, that's like quivering without you doing the thing.

[A]

There are ways of wiggling without literally wiggling the pitch, but yeah.

[B]

Okay. Surprise, surprise.

[A]

Hmm. I mean, the absolute classic for surprise is this one.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know that flourish. Yes, that flourish. That one's an absolute classic. That's called the whole tone scale.

[B]

That's like the chime on the iPhone.

[A]

It is, yeah. And it was like the fairy appears. Wow.

[B]

The fairy. Yeah. Tinkerbell. We have two more. Anger and then disgust.

[A]

Anger and then spoiler alert. Disgust.

[B]

Oh, you're very angry.

[A]

A little bit. But it did end. Okay. And then disgust.

[B]

Disgust. That's not one that I would ever associate with you.

[A]

Playing disgusting is interesting. It's interesting. Disgust is about context more than, like, something in its own right. But maybe I do. Like.

[B]

That'S your disgust.

[A]

Maybe it's like, whoa.

[B]

What was the context for that disgust in your mind?

[A]

I mean, to me, disgust is about. So with music, there's a lot of. The challenge is balancing kind of like consonants with dissonance. So the idea of, like, this feels sort of Clear and open. And then this feels, like, crunchy and, like, unknown. So something disgusting feels, like, somewhat surprising, I would say, but also somewhat dissonant and kind of just like a. Like a mouthful or something. Like.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

You know what I mean? So something that's, like, very full. I think my instinct was to sort of fill the whole keyboard because it's kind of like, you know, like, your whole palette is sort of, like, engaged when you're disgusted. Yeah. But then you've got these, like, spiky. Like, spiky shapes. Like, this interval is quite spiky.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As differentiated from, like. Yeah, it's more soiled. It's quite spiky. So, yeah, my instinct was to sort of like, kiki it rather than bobo it.

[B]

You and I met at a dinner party.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, we did.

[B]

And we bonded over our mutual interest in patterned clothing. Patterned clothing. And we sat opposite each other. You were reading a book.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. Not during the dinner.

[A]

That would have been weird. No, no. That would have been rude. That would have been strange.

[B]

And, you know, you're so humble. You're such a lovely person. And I didn't realize. I knew that there was this very talent musician in our midst because someone said they wheeled out a real piano, and you graced us. You played It's a Wonderful World.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Your rendition. And I was just in awe.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I don't use that word lightly because, like, I feel like there's a great definition of awe that comes from this. Berkeley social scientist Dacher Keltner. An emotion experienced when encountering something vast and mysterious that transcends our understanding of the universe. I want to understand how you became you. How you learned that you were you actually.

[A]

Oh, gosh, I think I'm still learning that every day.

[B]

When did you first feel called to an instrument or sound?

[A]

Beautiful question, and thanks for saying all of that to me. I think music is such a hybrid form of a lot of different things that I love. Like, it's not a means to. It's not a complete means to an end in itself. Music is as much about symmetry and balance as it is about language, as it is about communication. Humor, surprise. You've mentioned before, delight, awe is certainly a part of music. Well, it's based in mathematics and physics, so it's quite physical. And I think there's something really appealing to me about this language that's built out of kind of, like, all these different aspects of life. Like, all the best parts of life you find in music.

[B]

Yeah. And all the Heartbreak and all the heart, which is also a beautiful part of life.

[A]

Everything's kind of like welcoming in music. You know, it doesn't discriminate, and everything is to be included. So I think the reason I loved it as a child so much and one of the first times I felt called to it, really, I think was in around understanding that kind of no matter what life you lived, you could interpret it through music. And so, like, one of the first things I used to do as a musician was just to improvise, which is kind of what I've been doing today. It's almost like prompting yourself. It's like asking yourself a question and then seeing what comes out. And you have at your disposal all these different little bits of language and shapes and forms and songs and chords and melodies and things like that, and they sort of render your experience of the world in a. In a really cool way. So I. I loved it as a listener first. I felt called to be a music listener. So I want to listen to this.

[B]

But how old were you that first.

[A]

Time that you're like two. Like two or three years old, you know?

[B]

Yeah, like.

[A]

So I remember, like, wiggling. You said the word wiggling earlier. I remember wiggling along to. To Stevie Wonder when I was very small. Sting and the Police when I was very small. But also Johann Sebastian Bach, Bobby McFerrin, all these people. Freddie Mercury. I was like, oh, this is really. How do these people do that? How do they render their whole worlds in these colorful ways just through music?

[B]

And one of the things that you do. You very generously invited me to Summer Stage.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Central park this summer, to see you perform live. You've created an instrument out of humans, just groups of humans together doing a thing which is such a beautiful and rare thing to experience these days.

[A]

I think the thing with music that's so brilliant is that it's a verb, it's not a noun. You know, it's like you do it even if you're listening to it. You're doing it. You're making it real by perceiving it and by being a part of it.

[B]

I'm a musician because I was there at Summer Stage.

[A]

Well, yeah, I think I remember. You were over in the section on the left.

[B]

Yes. Um, do you see anything when you're up there?

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I love to. I love to look around because there's so many, you know, sparkling eyes and colorful clothes and things just to look at anyway. But, yeah, there's a moment in the show. Well, many Moments in the show where I like to sort of transform the audience into part of the instruments, to sort of extend myself into the crowd musically. And that's a really fun moment to. To look, to watch because I'm. I'm. I'm in the best seat in the house in that moment. I'm watching the audience. I'm listening to the audience. The audience is singing to me, really.

[B]

And for people listening or, you know, who haven't seen this, you're basically like, I don't know how many calories you're burning. It's like a Zumbat class. You're, like running probably a lot of calories, actually the stage and using your hands and composing the crowd into these bursts of sound and like, ooh, ah. You're doing all these.

[A]

It's like a big gesture, controlled musical instrument, really. So it's like if I point up, then people move the note up. If I point down, they go the note down. But I also change the vowel sound with my mouth. So it can be ah or oo or e or m or who. Ha. All this kind of stuff. So you can. People are amazing. You do so many things with people. Most of the audience choir works on this model of kind of like permission rather than skill. And then this amazing kind of social science thing happens where, you know, certain people have a sense musically of what's going on more than others and others will follow.

[B]

And Cam, our sound engineer was telling me that you actually created an instrument like as a plugin that anyone can use for their music out of this. It was at a hundred thousand person choir.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I started to record audiences compulsively because I was just so blown away by them. And I built this instrument out of them where basically you can. It's just a free plugin and you can play the audience on your keyboard at home or whatever. And there was something really special about that. Just like capturing the spirit of this colossal instrument. It's a really cute little ui. It's kind of like you play a chord and all the cities that are singing at that moment in the sample kind of light up and you see the people.

[B]

Wait, is there anything different about the different cities? Like in Tokyo? Like in Tokyo, I was always fascinated. They would dance toward the DJ when you'd go out. So is there a difference between, like, the crowd in Japan or the crowd in the south of America versus actual South America or Texas versus, you know, wherever?

[A]

Yeah. Well, in the last month I've played in both Texas and Santiago, Chile, for example. And they're pretty different.

[B]

Texans are not like Chileans.

[A]

No, they're not really. I mean, South America is so special. I don't know if you've spent much time down there.

[B]

No, because I have. I've spent time out down there. But now that I'm going to be a triangulist in Rio or Sao Paulo.

[A]

You have to get. Right. You have to get your triangulation game.

[B]

Yes, but I've spent a bit of time. But there's so. But it's so musical. Like, the life of Latin America is so musical.

[A]

It's so musical. There's so much sort of love and passion and gratitude there. It's a special thing, culturally, to observe. I mean, I think to me that the main axes when it comes to, like, audience, the sound of an audience is, you know, you've got. You've got the axis of loud to quiet. So some people just give more than others. Then you've got the axis of kind of like, attention to lack of attention. So, for example, playing a show in Vegas, everyone's just sort of so unfocused and has no connection to the site. But if you play a show in. Yeah. Somewhere like Rio de Janeiro, everyone's locked in, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you can have like a really quiet, attentive audience, or you can have a really loud, inattentive audience or anything in between. And my job is to say, okay, how do I sort of surf this wave in an interesting way?

[B]

You know, it's really rare and it's very holy, I think, to have an experience in the year 20, 25 of our Lord, to not have people have their phones out during a concert. And you are doing a thing which is so kind of, you know, I don't know, social media ready. Like, people would want to post about it, but people are so present.

[A]

It's funny, I've never told people not to have phones out, but I think they just have a feeling that they'd rather be there.

[B]

No, they're working. They're like, I'm here to work. I'm part of the band.

[A]

Can't you see?

[B]

I work. I'm ready to kind of step in.

[A]

And I really appreciate it. Just to see real people's faces and not the phones. Yeah.

[B]

So many times when I go to a concert, I'm just watching through someone else's phone.

[A]

It's a weird thing, isn't it? Yeah, it sort of. It kind of hijacks your attention from the stage as well, you know?

[B]

Yeah. You feel it when.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, but the main currency when I go on stage, everything I have to work with is already there. It's just the people who are there. My job is to build a relationship and a connection and just provide an experience for those people. The more barriers there are to those people for me to access people, the harder it is for me to do my job, in a sense. But I'm also not like a purist in any way in terms of phones. I know that they are of huge benefit and they're extraordinary things.

[B]

That's cause you're fake Gen Z. I'm.

[A]

Fake Gen Z. Yeah, you're fake. Fake ass Gen Z.

[B]

Your mother, Susie was also Susie Collier. Yes, Susie Collier, violinist and a professor at the Royal Academy of Music.

[A]

Conductor, in fact.

[B]

Conductor.

[A]

Yeah. So my earliest memories as a human involved watching her conduct orchestras. Never thought I'd be a conductor. Thought it sounded kind of stuffy to me, but watching her do it was extraordinary because it was an exercise in like, I think a lot of the musical things that were happening weren't actually musical things. They were human things. She has this ability to give. Give permission, make light of things, make people smile and laugh. And she has quite sort of ticklish methods, really. Unconventional conductor. You know, first of all, she's a woman, which is just already outstanding in comparison to so many of the sort of, like, honchos who stand up and try to order people around. She's so supple, she's so wiggly, she's so inclusive. She meets people where they are and then will kind of modulate those people to do extraordinary things that people had no idea they were capable of doing. And so she totally kind of roasts all the other teachers who are disciplinarians and trying to impose themselves. And she's just like, okay, like, what if we all take off our shoes? Or what if we all play with our eyes closed or whatever it happens to be. And people would just sort of get used to this idea that it's going to be unconventional and that's kind of what music is for. Like, it's not meant to be. Follow the rules, go down the hard line. It's meant to be. Everyone's invited, let's all play. And look at the deafness that's capable when you focus and when you, you know. So I think I grew up as people do and into the world and recognized I think, how deep some of those principles had got for me as a composer, arranger, performer, person, Person. But I never really figured, I never thought, oh, I'm Going to do. Yeah, I'm going to conduct orchestras. But then I accidentally started doing it with audiences, and it just kind of makes total sense.

[B]

And now the way you do it makes sense, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you feel like it was still a choice for you to go into me? Because when you sometimes go into a house of a thing.

[A]

Yeah, it's like osmosis, I think. I think the biggest blessing for me growing up was that I didn't need to be a musician to be kind of valued in the. In the family. I needed to be Jacob. Yeah, I did need to be Jacob, but my task was that. And so there was always the opportunity to play and to listen, but I was never, like, told to practice or anything like that. And a lot of my friends, who are also brilliant musicians were told to practice, and then they lost the spark, as many do, because it's like such a. Yeah. It's such a difficult thing to see the love through. It's like if it becomes about the regimen and the rules, then you sort of lose the steam for, like, the original reason why you started, which is just. This is so fun. Let's just see what happens here.

[B]

I want to talk about so many of these things, including your relationship with your mom and kind of just get lessons from you on how that relationship works so well. Because you continue to live with your mom, right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, gosh, I'm not home much nowadays, but, yeah, we share space every Christmas, so when I'm back home and with that. And she also comes on the road. She was on the road this month with me and conducting orchestras and stuff. And it's a really interesting thing to navigate. A real privilege to navigate.

[B]

And that the first album that you had in my room was in your room and in the house, your family house. Right. And so. Okay. So I want to, at some point, get to that.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

I want to talk about when parameters and creative parameters are good for creation. Because your last album has a set of rules. Finite time, finite instrumentation.

[A]

Limitations. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I want to talk about how limitations can be play also, because I think they can.

[A]

I'd love that. Yeah.

[B]

But before we do that, give us a bit of an education. Like, we'll do a lightning round.

[A]

Okay, great. Let's do it.

[B]

What if music is not an art, but a recipe, since you suck at cooking.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Okay. Break down the ingredients. So what is rhythm?

[A]

Rhythm is our relationship to time.

[B]

Say more.

[A]

In a nutshell, it's.

[B]

I'm always late. What does that mean?

[A]

I'm Also always late, as you can see today. So time. Time is. Is. Is in the body. Rhythm comes from the body. Everything comes from the body with rhythm. So you walk and you're in time, or you dance and you're in time, or your heart beats and you're in time, or you, you know, you blink or you move and everything's. Everything is a relationship with. Yeah, with time. So with music, the rhythm is so cool, it's so deep. And we could spend the next 50 hours talking about it. But. But I think to me, like, in its simplest form, it's like all the different ways in which you can create regularity and a lack thereof within a space of time. So say. You mentioned the word bar earlier on. Say your bars, I don't know what that means, are this long. A bar is like a measure, like one area of music. So say. I say this is my bar. And I'm dividing into four. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3. So immediately you're like bopping your head because you're in. You're like, you know, and.

[B]

And it's how many beats there are kind of like.

[A]

It's how many beats. So you can divide into four. Yeah, you can divide into three. You can divide into five, seven, any number you want. And then those kind of. Those divisions can also be subdivided. So say, for example, I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 1, 2. I can divide those into four each as well. So like. Or I could divide into three, which is a different vibe. Or if, for example, the music in Brazil, like the way the master triangulators live, the triangle in Brazil is. Is wiggly. It's wonky instead of like, it goes like. Exactly right. You can look around the world and you can find so many different forms of people feeling time. And it's beautiful.

[B]

But different cultures have different timing, right, for their music. Like different default timing.

[A]

Yeah. And all my favorite rhythms are wiggly. I'm just going to keep using the word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, for example, I mean, like, obviously we got. We've got lots of music in the world, especially nowadays, that's very rigid. Like, techno is very rigid. Yeah, it's just like lots of straight lines. It's like you've planted a forest of trees and all the trees are in a straight line. But then you have music like. Yeah, Samba, for example, which instead of being like. It's like, essentially it's sexy and beautiful. But yeah, sambo is one I love. Like, Moroccan music or Ganawa music is very similar. It has a wonk to it. Hip hop is very much like. There's people like Jay Diller, the late great d', Angelo, for example, pioneered. It's not, it's, it's sloppy. It's like, whoa, what's going on? It's wiggly. I love it. It feels like being a human being.

[B]

It's like being a slinky.

[A]

It's like being a slinky. It's a great metaphor.

[B]

So that's rhythm and time, melody and line.

[A]

Ooh, what a combination. Melody comes from speech in African countries a lot. Some African languages, it's quite. Some languages are quite triadic. It's like a three tone language. And a triad is like one of the most basic forms of sound. It's like a three note chord. So a lot of the rhythm and melody in Africa comes from that form. In European languages, the way that we emphasize a word is to say it more loudly and also to put the.

[B]

Pitch up or your emphasis in a different space.

[A]

So, yeah, so in certain African languages, for example, emphasis is not placed on a word through dynamics and through intonation. So if I go da da da da, that means I'm emphasizing. But in African languages, some African languages, emphasis is placed more to do with time. So the greatest emphasis of a word is actually is when the most amount of space comes before it. So it's kind of like if you go da da da da da da da da da da da, that's how certain languages in Africa provide emphasis. And so musically you can study this and look at it and deconstruct it. And there's such a, like the whole structure of melodies and everything is different. So it comes directly from speech. And Indian is the same, Chinese is the same. It's amazing.

[B]

That was one of my questions. I want to get to harmony in a second. But that was the question I was going to ask you when you were doing the Sambha. What is the word for that space? Before the release, before the thing. Because, okay. In your last album. I love the song Heaven Butterfly.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And one of the reasons I love it is that there is this kind of, kind of space that you keep creating where there's just like a twinkle of music. And I'm like waiting for it to come back, you know, like, I can't wait for it to come back. And so what is that? Is there a word for that?

[A]

I don't know. I mean, I think space is a good word for it. I think that it's a feeling, you know, it's anticipation. And the thing with like samba is it happens on a micro scale. It's like every single beat, you're like, oh, oh, anticipation. Anticipation. Which is really, really great.

[B]

That's why the Brazilians are so sexy.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Well, they're constantly wiggling at all times, but. But yeah, there's. I think, with. With melodies, like with that song, for example, heaven, Butterflies. There's like, the sense that you, like, you. You do something, and then you leave a space. You do something, you leave a space. And often in that song, the melody comes in this. In, like, the. The words come in the space. So the guitar. I. I can play it actually.

[B]

Yeah. Do we need to mic up something?

[A]

So in heaven, it's like. And then it just. Like the heartbeats. I see the whole world in your eyes. I'm gonna watch your eyes like an angel in the night you are bringing me back to life. So the way it works is the guitar speaks, and then I speak. Do, do do do do do do. And then the guitar speaks again.

[B]

I don't want you to stop playing.

[A]

This is so good. Oh, that's. That's.

[B]

This, like, the. The whole interview is a ruse for Jacob to just serenade me for an hour.

[A]

The thing with that is it's just about balancing the things. It's like. It's something I learned from African music, actually, where rather than having everything happening at the same time, it's cool if things happen at separate times. So you have the rhythm all the time or something. And then the melody, and then the rhythm, and then the melody.

[B]

Harmony. What is harmony?

[A]

You saved my favorite till last. A lot of people talk about music as being these three elements. Rhythm, melody, harmony. Harmony is. Is just about the relationship between things. That's what it is. It's saying, let's have this note and this note and this note all together. So I guess first it's. There's a difference between, like, unison and harmony. So unison is when two people or many people are singing the same thing. The same. The same note at the same time. Harmony is when you have lots of different notes at the same time. So like we say chords.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is when you have, like. So it's like this, right? This is. This is kind of like unison. This is one note. Harmony is when you go and it's like, oh, all the flowers are out. All the colors are there. All this thing. So as a child, I would sit for hours and hours and hours and days and weeks and months and just find all the ways I could think of combining notes together. That felt good. And some of them don't feel good if you go like that. It doesn't feel that good really. But there are so many ways you can play with music. For example, if I move one note at a time. If I play this chord here and I move only one note at a time, it changes the feeling. So say I got this. And then it's different. Different color. Yeah, it's a different color.

[B]

It's a different color.

[A]

It's like. It's. It's endless for me. Endless. And the thing with harmony is you can kind of make any note work with any other note. Like, there's no. There's no real rules and regulations for. For chords and harmony.

[B]

They're all compatible. Except for the one you played together when you just put your palm down.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's mostly about your attitude, which is. Which is why I like harmony so much. It's like.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Because you can. You can kind of use the same attitude in the world. It's like something can feel dissonant. So you might say this. How would you define this as a sound?

[B]

I think it's like an emotion or in a color, or. What do you want me to. It's spiky.

[A]

It's spiky?

[B]

Yeah, it's spiky and it's got a little quiver to it.

[A]

Perfect. That's perfect. It doesn't feel that great, does it? Like, in its own right. It's a bit like.

[B]

It feels like spinal to me. It's better for me to show you how I feel things in my body.

[A]

That's a really good description. Spinal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, so. So the reality is this, by itself, it doesn't mean much. But with. As a harmonist, I get to create context for this in so many different ways. So if I did this, for example, something's like, oh, I understand the context of it. You know what I mean? Or if I did, like, say I did that, it's like I, like. I understand, like, where it's grounded or. Or.

[B]

And it becomes much less spiky.

[A]

It becomes less spiky. Or I can decide how spiky I want it to be. If I did, like, if I did this, that doesn't make it less spiky, but if I did, that makes it a little bit less spiky.

[B]

How do you know how to do that?

[A]

Well, it's just a lot of trial and error. A lot of trial, error and learning to understand the basic building blocks of music and chords and things like that. But to me, the thing with harmony, which I Love so much. And I think it's like as much a life lesson as a musical lesson, is it? You can make something sound beautiful by putting it in a particular context or thinking of it in a particular context. And you can also make something sound ugly and awful and whatever. And in. In the arts, everything. You can. Everything's welcome. You can say whatever story you want to. You want. You can tell whatever story you want to tell. But as a child, it was just. It was. The biggest thing I loved about music was. Was chords, because they're so emotional to me. Like, you can just. If I. If I'd sit. I can just sit in here, for example, Forever. I could just sit there forever.

[B]

Yeah, I could sit there forever, too. This is good.

[A]

It feels good. But then if I want to, I can just change the whole color. This is gonna be a different color.

[B]

Now, when you say color, do you actually see a color as you're saying this?

[A]

No, not a specific color, but I think I use color in the way in which people feel it. Yeah, it's like. Oh, it's just like. It's like a different hue, a different tonality, a different state of mind. But with harmony, the beautiful thing is keeping one thing the same and changing other things. So if this is here and I go like this, that's the one. One particular color. And then if I go, it's a different thing. But this has stayed through both. So your heart and mind is like, oh, yeah, I'm still there. I can still see myself in the. In the thing. But it's just. It's just changes. It's an amazing kind of thing to study.

[B]

Before I was a podcaster, I used to make documentary films.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the reasons I loved it is that I come from a few years of working in a career consulting where, like, you did the job of the person above you, and so when that person, like, brought you work, you'd be like, oh, well, this is different how I do it. And you kind of had a sense of how much time it should take and what it should look like, and before you, like, when you even assigned it, you have a sense of what it is versus when I started making movies all of a sudden. Like, I didn't know. Like, I don't know how to do what a gaffer does, but I can say, oh, it feels a bit gloomy. It feels like I want it to feel more wondrous or whatever. And then that person knows how to make the thing. And same thing. When you work with a music supervisor or A composer. It's amazing how we can communicate through these things like light and music.

[A]

The thing is, you're working with a set of materials that everyone understands. Like, everyone understands, like rough and smooth.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or, or big and small, wide and narrow, thick or thin. Like people. We all have an experience of this in our own way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you're a filmmaker or if you're a musician, you're tapping into the same aesthetics, so. Oh no, that feels too, that feels too close or that feels too open, whatever. And it's the, the intangible things that we're finding language for. It's like a really worthy thing to explore and study. One thing I would say in general is that the way that I feel like I've learned this is not through kind of routine or, or discipline or through a sense of like trying to prioritize efficiency. I think I've spent a lot of time, a lot of time doing things slowly and thoroughly. And I think that in this day and age where we're so obsessed with things being efficient, like a lot of the models that we work with, it's all about what's the most, what's the quickest way to achieve the maximum result. But I just really don't think art works like that at all. But music to me reminds me of, of that feeling. And I think that some of the best and most important things are discovered slowly and expand slowly. And I think that like embracing the parts of it which aren't like pretty or beautiful or effortless, those are some of the most interesting things you can embrace as an artist. And it's a very worthy thing to kind of remember.

[B]

So as an artist, right now we're on the precipice of this AI revolution. It's coming. It's spiky, it's gloomy.

[A]

Some people say it's everything. It's literally everything.

[B]

But how do you look at AI Coming down the pike? A little cliffhanger. We'll be right back, guys. Today's sponsor, Dumb Question is from me. I'm going to take the next minute to tell you a little bit about Smart Girl Dumb Questions and to ask you for your help in continuing to make independent, fact based and curious journalism. No, I'm not going to ask you for money. Here's what I need. I would love you to tell 10 of your friends about the show or 100, I don't know, blast that reunion group that you muted. And definitely tell your mom and tell your mom to tell her friends too, even if you don't like the show and you're just like, hate watching it or listening to it. Tell 10 of your friends to hate watch it too. Numbers are numbers, people. But how do you look at AI coming down the pike? Especially as someone whose canon of work is so much about harmony and about humanity and about groups of real life humans?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my first instinct is to be curious. I think I would say that with most things that I encounter, sort of like, oh, what, what's this? You know, is this interesting question mark? And the reality is it's. It's very interesting in some ways and very uninteresting in others. Especially when you try and get AI to make creative work.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's usually really dreary. And to me, it's extraordinary how. How sterile some of the results can be with something so infinite and so brilliant. And the question to me becomes as an artist, like, how? What makes something interesting? Like, it's the question we ask. You must ask the same question in your way all the time. What makes a conversation interesting? What makes a piece of music industry? What makes something interesting in the world? And the reality is, as I've learned from AI, I think infinity doesn't make something interesting. You know, and total capacity and infinite competence, it doesn't lead to something being compelling. So I think, to me, it's a time where we're being demanded to think beyond, kind of beyond the spectacular.

[B]

Do you think what's next is something more simple?

[A]

I think we're gonna see this crazy kind of divergence of approaches. I think there will be people who lock down and say, okay, I'm gonna make only things that feel totally human, totally simple. There'll be people who go and explore the craziest edges of the. Of the technological spaces and things like that. I think we need the whole gamut. I think there are. I think there are some real issues at play with AI that are obvious, but, you know, kind of need to be stated. I mean, I think there are. One of the ones for me is just like the sheer climate aspect of it, like the radical inefficiency with regard to energy and the way in which it's kind of centralized in a really ugly way, like the. How few people have control over the ultimate direction of these things. And it's really hard to put guardrails on. The more guardrails you put on, the less. Less interesting it becomes. But also we need the guardrails. There are so many unknowns here. There are a lot of big unanswered Questions. I think that people relate to people. And I think the reason is because people aren't finite and infinitely competent. So I'm not threatened that my. As a role, my artist will be taken away, but I do think that my method as an artist will need to change. And I'm excited about the challenge of embracing, like, being more unpredictable for a living. I actually feel like this is a person already. It's just like, maybe our freedom is in being really unpredictable right now in a very algorithmic space.

[B]

Which is what I was gonna say to you, because that question, if I may answer it, of what makes a conversation interesting, it's not formula and it's not infinity, but it's often awareness of when you're tickled, when you feel something. And that question about AI, I wasn't gonna ask you much later in the conversation in my mind of my flow and these notes, but it was like.

[A]

It came up with that movie, but.

[B]

It came up in that moment as we're speaking about it. So I think what makes conversations interesting is the unformulaic nature of it. People need something like, you know, there's Billy Wilder's writing rules for films or whatever. And there are certain realities. Like, I think when you end something, you gotta get. There is to me. But sometimes, you know, you can play. You can have an ending.

[A]

That's the thing. There's always a. There's always a maybe. There's always a maybe.

[B]

So it's this life that I think the challenge with a prompt is it requires preemption. And the beauty of a conversation is that it requires abandoning preemption or preface.

[A]

You know, I think it's a combination of structure and lack of structure that makes something good. I think one thing that's really interesting to me is that when I first encountered, like, Dall? E in 2022, and everyone was freaking out, there's a whole new thing. You can generate any image you can imagine. You know, I was so excited. I mean, I think. And I wasn't alone. There were so many people who were just like, well, the only limit is what I can imagine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you kidding me? Like, that's so thrilling. But it's like, the better it's got at following orders, the less interesting it's become. And so it. To me, it's really bust this myth about, like, high resolution. Things are actually clearer. Because it's not clearer. It's clearer if it has. If it has less. Like, there's a threshold. There's a threshold where if something has absolutely no skill whatsoever. It's just a lump of mush and it means nothing. If it has too much skill, then it's too overt to be true. It's like sometimes you have to squint your eyes to see something more clearly.

[B]

There's something beautiful. I just went to see the film. Nevaeh Vague, Richard Linklater's new film. It's black and white. There's something about that resolution that's really compelling to me. Or even photos that were taken with those cameras that people would bring out, like in the kind of 2000s.

[A]

I mean, still now we're obsessed with all that stuff.

[B]

Like, I actually think there's something beautiful in the space for imagination of what the depth of the thing can be.

[A]

Every single. So I shot a music video for every song on the Light for Days, my new album, on a little dad cam, like a Sony dad cam from like 2004 with my good friend Andre. And Andre has some extraordinarily high end gear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, we were traveling around South America, around Europe, touring, and we would shoot these little videos for every single song. And it was so much more emotional to use the dad cam.

[B]

Yeah, almost.

[A]

Almost ever. Than it. Than it was to use the high resolution cameras. To me, that's really interesting, and it's something that I've really learned from AI is just how, like, the more obedient you try and make this model, the worse it gets at generating an emotional response. So it's like maybe the whole model is wrong and things that are obedient, including people, just aren't gonna generate the kind of change that we need in the world and the kind of interest that we look for as artists and as creators and also of lovers of life and lovers of art.

[B]

Let's talk about your latest album.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Okay. So your discography, kind of. You start with In My Room, then you do Jesse one through four.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But then not Jesse five.

[A]

No, no. Because it was always gonna be a four album project. It was like one of the. That was one of the things that I laid out that was like pretty much the only structure I laid out for myself. With Jesse was definitely very collaborative and definitely four albums.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And each album became its own kind of universe, which was the original idea. So. So in my room was a totally solitary experience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I made it at home in my beloved childhood music room that I grew up. I learned to walk in that room. It was like a really special zone. It still is a very special zone for me. And that was my first time Doing an album and it was just nerve wracking and. And fun and everything. Everything that it brings. Also so much I learned from that.

[B]

And you did it yourself like you were creating harmony with yourself through different times.

[A]

Well, yeah, so you mentioned, like the chord there. I always loved the chords, but my first contributions in music were just to layer myself. It was like, Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, Jacob. You know, and that was the thing. And then I really craved collaboration. So after in my room, I was like, okay, I really want to collaborate. How can I do this in the most kind of broad way possible? And I made this ridiculous list of people. Right, let's see. I want to do a song with Tori Kelly. I also want to do a song with Umar Sangare. And I want to do a song with Hamid Alcastery and Kirk Franklin. I want to do a song with him and Lauren Vula. That's good. Maybe Jojo would be good. Steve Vai, Anushka, Shankar. Maybe Camilo could be on the album. It was like all these Coldplay, just. Yeah, Chris Martin, right? Yeah. Shawn Manda, you know, so. And I've, you know, become friends with some of these people over the years just because people who make music often collide. And I think certain people were kind of excited by my pretty bizarre, pretty irreverent, sort of punk harmonic choices early on. And that sort of extended into a greater musical attitude. But I just. I just made music that I found beautiful with people I found beautiful. And that was Jesse. And it was a seven year project and it was really, really ambitious and really fun, and I learned so much from doing it.

[B]

Okay, and now the sixth album.

[A]

So. So now this new era, I was excited to embrace limitations in a particular way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I imposed two main ones. One was one instrument, which was this five string guitar, which I was playing earlier on. And the second was I had these four days before my tour began. I was going to go to Asia to play some shows and I had these four days and I thought, well, maybe I should just make a record in these four days. And so I ended up doing it. So it was a combination of very, very small time frame and kind of limited palette. And I think the reality is you can get infinity out of infinity. You can do that. You can say everything's possible and then go and make everything possible, but you can also get infinity out of finity. And that was what this album was for me. It was a set of limitations that rendered like. It was like a sort of prism, a prism through which I could, like Shine. And then out came something quite distinct, which was. For me, it was real education, you know?

[B]

And was that a reaction to. We were talking about AI earlier. In this infinity. Out of infinity. Was in some way, is this album a reaction to this time?

[A]

I wouldn't say so. I mean. Well, I would say so in some ways. I don't think I was trying to prove anything beyond just. It'd be really nice to just make something right. Now, what can I make? Oh, maybe I'll try this as a thing out. I do think that. I mean, the title of the album, the Light for Days, came kind of from three for three reasons. One is a lyric in one of the songs on the album, or a song called Icarus, which is a song by a group called the Staves I love so much. And there's this beautiful line where it's like, I have not seen the light four Days, and it's just this beautiful line. And so I wanted to kind of put a vignette around that, which is really nice. Secondly, four Days just felt like it's very ticklish to me. And then thirdly, I just think the idea of light is beautiful. And a lot of the songs are about light. Finding light, losing light. And, yeah, I think. I think we need light in our days. And it was something that felt warm and kind of soft and supple and very wiggly, very bendy, very unrigid. And it was recorded very much live as well, which is a new approach. I've spent a lot of my career recording many different instruments one by one, on top of each other. So it's like drums and then bass and then guitar and then vocals, vocals. And it's like each one is a. Is an individually placed ingredient. And then you build, like. It's like building a big mosaic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Whereas this album was built around live performances that I did, as in, like, full, full take. So I would do a guitar and vocal take and then decorate a little bit around the edges. And that became so a really different way of working for me.

[B]

And did the time get in your way? Like, are you. Are you somebody who has kind of like a Mad Max, like, wanting to perfect every minute and stays in the thing forever? Or are you somebody who's just like, one of the reasons I love live is I don't have to listen again. It just exists, and it exists in the world, and it can go. But did you feel, like, a tension of not being able to do more after I did?

[A]

I would say I did. I'm definitely very Detail oriented in my process. So I love getting it just right though. I think that part of the magic is knowing what to leave and knowing not what to tweak because you can tweak everything. And I've definitely over tweaked in the past and I've under tweaked in the past. So again, it's that mixture of tweakage and lack thereof. And the four days thing just demanded that I didn't over tweak and therefore it's quite scrappy, which I kind of.

[B]

Really like does wiggle. Is wiggle and tweak related? Like does more tweaking get you more wiggle unless. Or does less tweaking get more wiggle?

[A]

I think tweaking removes wiggle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can also tweak something to be more wiggly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I guess they're sort of like.

[B]

It's like a curve.

[A]

Complementary. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

A U curve or something.

[A]

One of those U curves.

[B]

Yeah, whatever it's called.

[A]

Like if you, you can tweak something a little bit to get the sort of like unnecessary gestures away, like the Met, like the mess, the chaff. And then you find the sort of sweet spot. But then if you keep tweaking too much, then you start to lose the life. I think that's what the AI Lords did. I think they made a model that was really crude and then they trained it, or many models and then they trained them to be slightly better. Slightly better. Slightly better. And then it got really interesting and then they kept tweaking it and then it got less interesting.

[B]

Everything is like on the edge. This is a five string guitar. Dumb question. How many strings do guitars usually have?

[A]

Six strings.

[B]

Okay. Which string did you, which string did you not like?

[A]

Actually, it's not a dumb question.

[B]

Is it not actually.

[A]

I grew up playing a four string guitar. I never got on tour with a six string guitar.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I don't know. It just felt like the only way in was to learn all the shapes that everyone else learns. And for some reason I wasn't that inspired to like really get into it. So. But I went to a music shop in London once and I found this four string guitar called a tenor guitar. And it was tuned like this, like that. That was the tuning. To me. This is like. This is really open. So it wasn't, it wasn't like overly defined, but it was, it felt like interesting to me in a way that the six string didn't. It felt like simple. Yeah. And like I wanted to expand. So I found all this language on the four string guitar. But then the more I did it, I was like, I really. It would be so handy to have a fifth string because. Because then, then it could be symmetrical and I can demonstrate that. So these are the five strings. In fact, these are the five strings. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. How many fingers do you have on your hand?

[B]

Five.

[A]

Five. Exactly. So first of all, let's just, let's just take a moment to acknowledge how logical that is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And so, yeah, this string and the top and bottom string are the same. And then the two strings in those are the same as well. And then the middle one is its own thing. So it's actually a mirror. So like for you guitarists who are listening, any shape you play on the bottom half like that, for example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I flip it upside down, it's kind of the same. So I could do like. Or like you can kind of. You visually, it's. It's a beautiful language because every shape works upside down. Yeah, it's just one of these things that excites me.

[B]

So you're saying you're, you're over the six string guitar? You're never into it?

[A]

I'm completely over it. But really what I would fundamentally say is that the five string guitar is an. Is an augmentation of a four rather than a diminution of a six.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Okay, I love that. Okay, can we talk about instruments really quickly? Please do like a quick lightning round on that. Okay, so do different instruments give you different feelings in your body?

[A]

Yeah, the quick answer is yes, I suppose.

[B]

Tell me, like, where. Tell me three parts of your body that you feel. Different instruments.

[A]

I think. I don't necessarily feel like it's like, oh, it's my middle toe and it's my left patella and my, like my right wenus, you know? Do you know about the wisdom the wenus is.

[B]

This sounds dirty.

[A]

Yeah, I know it does. This is a weenus. It's this, like, nerveless part of the elbow.

[B]

What's the elbow? The elbow is the ugliest part of the human body.

[A]

That is so unkind.

[B]

Do you not think that? What is the ugliest part if not the elbow?

[A]

I don't know. I feel like weaknesses have their benefits.

[B]

I don't know. I just never thought someone had an attractive elbow.

[A]

What's the ugliest part of the. But it's definitely the asshole, isn't it?

[B]

I don't know. I mean, some people probably think that's beautiful.

[A]

Okay, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, it's True.

[B]

I just don't think you've ever sat. Like you'd be with the most beautiful person in the world. And then you look at their elbow and it's like. It's just a fucking elbow.

[A]

So me and my two little sisters, one of the ways we, like, irritate each other, which is what siblings are designed to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is this thing called weenus milking.

[B]

That sounds really dirty.

[A]

And you sort of like. You sort of like, like grab someone's wenness and like, start squeezing it and really. In a really annoying way.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so. And it's become this, like, form of affection, I think, for me too. But yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's a bit tortured. Okay.

[A]

How do you get into that? Oh, you just asked me where I put my leg in my body.

[B]

So you didn't say you feel it. You don't feel it in your wenis, but you feel it.

[A]

Okay. You literally feel it. Not to keep on going with this, but you literally feel nothing in your weakness at all.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Can you pass me your.

[B]

Are you gonna do the weenus?

[A]

No. Basically, if I squeeze, I'm squeeze this as hard as I possibly can. That's really hard. But you don't feel it at all because there's no nerves in there.

[B]

Is my weenus broken?

[A]

No, no, it's perfectly mended.

[B]

What's the instrument that you feel like, makes you feel like most like a genius. And what's the instrument you feel. Makes you feel like most like a novice?

[A]

Oh, well, I wouldn't. I can't honestly say. I walk around the world feeling like a genius. That's not something I. I do.

[B]

You don't walk around. You don't walk around it feeling like genius. But I think.

[A]

I think when I play the piano, I feel the most capacious. Maybe I would say that, like, there's the most that's possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, sometimes I'll play something on the piano that feels really descriptive or large and that feels good to me. That feels like, oh, okay, this is good. But there are plenty of instruments. Like, for example, when I was in Brazil last month, I was jamming. They have these beautiful musical gatherings. They call it shoro. And you go and you play these songs and you. There's percussionists and instrumentalists and whatever, and. And there were these sort of offshoots of these gatherings that just like little rooftop jams. It's really, really special. You have to go and triangulate over there.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna become a world famous or Brazil. Famous triangulator.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But yeah, I was, I was. I ended up on someone's rooftop, this master accordion player.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we were playing and we were jam. Playing songs, whatever. So he handed me his accordion and he was like, play us something. And, and that. I certainly felt like a novice at that moment. I tried to figure something out in the accordion. They're amazing instruments, but they're so different from other.

[B]

Yeah, you only play human accordions.

[A]

I do play human accordions. The thing with the coins is like there's buttons on one side and keys on the other. So that's already just like a bit, A bit mind blowing.

[B]

That was very humble what you said about you walk around the world. Like, not you, you don't walk around the world feeling like a genius, but you know, when you're a master at something. Like, you know, when you played it, played it perfectly or.

[A]

I know, I know I'm comfortable in a, in a. In a form, for sure. I know, I know when I have control over something enough and I usually. The more, the more control I have, the less I have to try. But I think that genius as a form is like, it's maybe unhelpful. I can't think of a way in which that would improve my sense of myself. I'm a genius.

[B]

Yeah. You don't want to go around being like, I'm the Gen Z Mozart.

[A]

No, not really. My good friend Brian Eno, he has this term, Scenius, which I really love, which is the idea of like the kind of like the genius of the collective, which really is any, any singular brilliant person. Genius, whatever is a, is, is the, the culmination of the people who inspired them, showed them things, taught them things, and then their own circuitry and their willingness to sort of merge those worlds and, and, and tenacity to, to deepen their craft.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that seniors, to me feels more interesting than genius. And, and the audience choir is a very clear example of that. The idea of kind of like we're, we're way more interesting musically than we are as a group than when we're totally. Everything's in, in isolation. And I, I've. I've worked in both of those spaces and I think that, I think that they both have their benefits. But yeah, to me, I don't feel like a, like someone who focuses on feeling like that sort of isolation of being like, I'm, I'm an island.

[B]

You said you're not an isolationist. You're. You're definitely not like you were so open about your craft. And I feel like sometimes, like, musicians are like magicians. They don't really tell you how they. The thing is made.

[A]

I'm totally a non smokescreener.

[B]

Yeah, you give everything. You're like. You're shooting videos of how you make the thing, you know? Cam was describing our great sound engineer mixer that's here today had gone to Hideaway and been at your retreat, but he was just describing how open you are with that process. Do you think that comes from the fact that music was always communal to you, like it was in your family, it was in your relationship with your.

[A]

Mom, or maybe So I think music was very solitary for me for many years. It was never like something I did by myself only. But I definitely spent a lot of solitary time studying and deepening and recording and all of that stuff. But I think that. I think I was brought up by. Well, my mom. She's a very gifted teacher. So I would see students come into the house and she'd be explaining things to them, and I'd. I'd. I understood through watching her explain stuff, how the best explanations make really complicated things feel really simple.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I just really like the challenge of that. I love the challenge of. Of taking this crazy multi threaded sort of language and rendering it in a way that's just like, this is. This is how it works. And I think. I think it's how my brain works. I think it's. I love understanding something in a way that. That feels like there's a sort of like a granularization of ideas where it starts with the simple, then it becomes more and more complex, and there's like these layers. I think my. My brain's happy in that scenario, but also I've just recognized that the more you give away, the more you get back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's no reason for me. I don't have the time in my life to. To activate on all the things I know about and I'm curious about. I would. The more I can give to other people, like, please go and do this idea. Because I figured out, because I'm only one person, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it makes me excited to think that the more I just share about this with other people, it's like, great. That means if you could get to explore it, great.

[B]

You know, it also makes you more masterful at your craft. I'm sure by putting words on it, you're getting better and better at the thing that you do because you have to think about your process all the.

[A]

Time it's another one of these accordions. It's like you can over explain something to yourself and then it dies. And you can also under explain something and not fully understand it. So to me, I've always benefited from, from putting something into words up to the point where I confuse the words with the thing. Because again, music is a, is a verb, not a noun. And if you start to think too much about it, then it can become this thing that exists in the mind and not in the body. So it's something to be aware of, I guess.

[B]

But music for you has never, I guess it feels like from knowing you a little bit and knowing your story more is like. It didn't feel like music is an escape for you.

[A]

I wouldn't say so.

[B]

And I think for many musicians it.

[A]

Can play the role. But to me it's like it's more about like include. It's like I get to find out how I'm feeling by making music. It's like, how am I doing? Move the microphone a little, play another note. You play another note, whatever. And then, and then you, you learn like, you start to learn how, how you're feeling. So yeah, I think, I think iterating on your imagination helps. I. I do know the feeling of, of making something that is like the world. I would prefer like, I know that feeling. It's like that's a form of escapism. Like I'm going to make a world that feels like this. And that's the thing. But I don't feel like I'm running away from how I'm really feeling. I feel like I'm running towards how I'm really feeling. But sometimes you could say like, it's the same thing I was saying before. It's like sometimes you need to not necessarily escape, but you need to sort of like trap door out of reality in order to process and actually come closer to how you're feeling and understand how you're feeling and let it ripen and let it shine in order to return with more equipment for your life. And so I think escapism is underrated, you could say as a form of processing.

[B]

Do you ever just like do bedrot?

[A]

What's bedrot? Or maybe that's answered the question.

[B]

When you like sit in bed and just like look at your phone and don't do anything all day. You're so prolific. Like, do you ever see nothing?

[A]

You say, no, I totally, I totally bedrot. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

You know it's bedrock. No.

[B]

Yeah, like go just see A film.

[A]

Oh, I want. That's me. I want to do more.

[B]

Go see movie. When's the last time you saw a movie?

[A]

I watched half of the Nightmare Before Christmas last week, which I'd never seen.

[B]

Is it scary? Did you get scared?

[A]

Have you ever seen it?

[B]

I've not seen it.

[A]

I enjoyed it. It wasn't like terrifyingly scary, but it was delightfully odd.

[B]

I'm gonna watch half of it and then the next time we hang, we.

[A]

Can conclude you watched the second half and I'll watch the first half and then between us, we will have watched the film.

[B]

Okay, I wanna do a very quick thing where I asked. This is gonna be called like, Smart Guy Smart Questions, which is not a sexist trip on my show, but I asked a bunch of musicians to send me questions.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Okay. And some of them maybe you'll know, some of them you don't.

[A]

Oh, exciting.

[B]

Okay. Do you know Ali Sethi, who did the song Pasuri? He sent you this. Hi, Jacob.

[A]

I'm so impressed with your virtuosity. The way you play so many different instruments and play around with so many different styles and sounds and bring them all together. My question to you is, is there a work or a piece or an instrument of non western music that you have encountered recently and that has intrigued and inspired you or made you think about music in a different way? Well, that's a great question. Oh, gosh, so many. I mean, the one that comes to. One that came to my mind straight away was. Is an instrument called the automaton, which is a Japanese kind of toy instrument. Those things are really, really silly. But it's like a. Like a little face.

[B]

Like a Tamagotchi machine.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of like a little like. Like a little rubbery face. And it has like a really tall kind of. It's hard to explain, like a sort of like hair.

[B]

Like a rat tail.

[A]

If you touch. Yeah, kind of like that. And if you touch it at different points, you're going to go like this, which is bizarre, but. But so fun to try and like, make it sound good, make sense out of it. So that's. That's one that comes to mind recently.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

But I mean, just working with Anushka Shankar. With the sitar.

[B]

With the sitar.

[A]

It was an insane experience for me.

[B]

I would like you and Ali to collaborate. He's one of the best Pakistani musicians.

[A]

I would be so down.

[B]

That sounds wonderful and just fantastic. Ghazal, like all the history of Pakistani music. Okay. And then here's One from Jonathan, who's half of the band Archai, which is an electroacoustic band.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

They play violin and cello together.

[A]

Oh, cool. Cool. Hey, Jacob. I'm so blown away by your creativity and how you personify joy through your music. There seems to be an ease with who you are and everything that you bring to the stage that almost defies reality. And so I'm just curious, like, what do you struggle with?

[B]

What do you struggle with besides cooking?

[A]

I already mentioned the cooking thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, I think. I feel like I struggle with infinity, which is a weird thing to say, but I think. I think I need ways of rendering the infinity into affinity. And if I don't have those, then my mind starts to feel like a weird place to be, like. Like a strange, unsafe place to be. And also just balance. I think, like any artist would tell you it's like a weird thing to. To travel constantly and to be meeting people and to be giving energy out and all this stuff. And it's like not a trivial thing to. To lead a balanced life within that in that way. So I think that. Yeah, in a sense, like, that's like. Those are. Those are. Those are simple things, but I think that they're the building blocks of who you are as a person. So I think that those. Those are things I think about all the time.

[B]

That is. It's. The balance is such a.

[A]

It's. It's really. It's.

[B]

It's always elusive and then when it's there, you can never appreciate it. You just never.

[A]

Yeah, like, it will change. It will change its form constantly. So. Yeah, I'm curious to hear you speak with that a little bit. If we had more time. But. Yeah, but I feel like that's such a. That's such an elusive thing for all of us to find right now.

[B]

Okay. Cam, you have a question? Yeah. So I went to Hideaway and it was one of the best experiences I've ever had.

[A]

That week was amazing.

[B]

And I still gig with a ton of people that I met from there. And it's kind of just the gift that keeps on giving. And I was wondering what that experience was like for you of being now, having reflected on it now being a couple months away from it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Maybe explain what Hideaway is.

[A]

Yeah, I'll start by doing that. So. So this summer I did my first ever retreat of sorts. So it was. It was like a four day window of time where we went to. Well, this year it was Tarrytown in New York, which is a quaint place. And we had about 300 people or so come. And I curated this kind of super group of people who I wanted to have around to help help with the process of teaching, explaining, workshopping, exploring, and playing shows. So. So every day we'd play a little show in the evening, but that followed a whole day of doing a bunch of different types of classes. Whether it's. Yeah. Something musical or something more imaginatory, it's. I've never experienced anything like it. It was crazy. It makes me emotional to think about Hideaway because it's. It was this combination of all the things I feel like I've kind of been working towards but without realizing it. Like, I think. I think it's easy to feel isolated as an artist anyway, but to realize how much community was there and existed there and was also made there gave me a lot of hope in the future. And that as a format. And yeah, I learned so much from doing it. It was like a sort of this process of me realizing all the different ways there are of connecting with people these days. And a lot of it does take proximity and time. These aren't things you can just do over a quick message. It's like spending four days with a group of people like that. The energy just got more and more charged and by the end it was just this ecstatic feeling.

[B]

It's kind of funny how quickly people can fall in love in those kinds of settings or create something.

[A]

Yeah, I think if the conditions are right, then you can create really lasting relationships really fast. And yeah, I just want to do more of them, really. It feels like something I. I really enjoyed a huge amount.

[B]

Last question from my friend John Keaton, who happens to be in the studio.

[A]

Jacob, you're known for your collaborations both with other artists and with your whole audiences. What are one or two or maybe three dream collaborations that you haven't done, but who you would would be amazing that you would want to aspirationally. Oh, that's a great question. Rosalia. I have so much time for her. She's. She's up there with the best. We've been in touch, but we've never like, met and made music yet. So hopefully that will be one thing. Gosh, who else? I mean, I'm yet to write a song with Stevie Wonder, so I do want to keep on putting that into the universe. And I'll give you one more. Trying to think of like a wild card. Kendrick. I mean, Kendrick is. Is an absolute no brainer.

[B]

We can send this to Kendrick's people.

[A]

Great, great. Yeah, Kendrick I've. I've adored since he was just a wee lad and I was just a wee lad.

[B]

So you choose Kendrick in the Kendrick DRAKE Drama?

[A]

Oh, 100%. That's not even a question.

[B]

Actually, while we're here, can I just ask you. You've collaborated with Chris Martin. What was going through your head when the whole Coldplay thing was going on in the world?

[A]

I mean, it was a really interesting moment. It was like this unexpected social explosion. I think I know him enough to know how good his intentions were.

[B]

Yeah. How earnest his people.

[A]

His intentions were so good there. It was just. Maybe it was just kind of bound to happen. Like it was a sort of perfect storm of media stuff. But, yeah, it's been fun. I've been to a show since, and he really leans in to the fact that that happened. It's a really fun.

[B]

You should start outing people from your human accordion.

[A]

It feels like a non audience choir adjacent type thing.

[B]

Exactly. But maybe so you'll end up with a smaller and smaller choir over time. Okay. I end every episode of Smart Girl Jam question asking my guests what they're dumb about. Like, what's a question you have that you would love us to go and find someone to answer for you?

[A]

Oh, that's such a good. That's a very non dumb question of you to ask me.

[B]

I mean, I already did the Coldplay question. That was my dumbest.

[A]

Yeah. What's a silly question? I feel like I'm full of.

[B]

It could be about the weaness. It could be about.

[A]

Well, I guess the question is, like, why? Well, first of all, why is the we so underrated? And second of all, why no nerves? Like, why the disrespect?

[B]

Yeah. And has that, like, always been the case? Or, like, did, like, some ancestor of ours have nerve endings in their way?

[A]

I'm asking the questions. I don't know.

[B]

Well, I just like to riff. Ridiculous.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's an interesting commodity, I think.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I need answers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One thing actually, before you leave. What is, like, one piece of advice you'd give to everybody who. You have a parent with whom you have a really good relationship. Your mom.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you have a parent who is absent.

[A]

Absent? Yeah.

[B]

Your father. What is, like, one piece of advice you give to people in thinking about parental relationships? And not that you're a genius at it, but just what have you learned from your own experience, particularly with, I think, so many people who struggle with that?

[A]

I mean, I think the sooner you recognize that everyone is just a flawed Human, the better. Me included. Like, there's. I don't think, I don't think you can have good relationships from the perspective of, of feeling or expecting sort of like perfection. Like it's, it's not, it's not the reality. Like. Like my. My mum is an extraordinary human being who is capable of, in my mind, like re. Actual real life magic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm just like, how is this possible? And also she's just a human being and I know her so well, obviously. And you know, there are challenges for any child, parent relationship as you grow and as you figure out where you end and another person begins and where those lines are and what matters to you and to me. I think, you know, it's just hard with how much I travel to make that quality time really like to really show up in that. In those moments. Because I go home and I'm just exhausted from my general excursions of energy. But I think, you know, I think just recognizing the specialness of somebody, if you're lucky enough to someone in your life who loves you unconditionally, that's the biggest gift. And I think that there's an amazing sense that that relationship can just ripen and deepen over time as long as you really make space for the other person. You know, it takes a lot of, A lot of trial and error and honest, honest communication about like where someone's space ends and the others begins and, you know, this sort of thing. But the thing that's cool in the, in the creative space is we're kind of telepathic in some ways. So like she will know if I say, oh, it just needs to be more. Like I should be like, I know, I know what you mean. And then she'll, you know, like those.

[B]

Is she the easiest person to have harmony with for you?

[A]

Depends what kind of harmony, I guess. I think in that way, like I can't think of anyone else who would be able to like read my mind in terms of like interpretation of music. It's a cool thing.

[B]

Can I tell you a secret?

[A]

Please.

[B]

As someone who. I was very close to my father and like I feel like a lot of my career and everything is like connected to my father and he passed away a few years ago.

[A]

Did he?

[B]

And I thought this was like gonna end, this proximity with my father when you know. Cause he was older dad. But I have to say, like, after he's passed, I still feel these moments of like, great connection. And I never knew how much you could connect with someone who isn't there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of what you said. The quality of the time we created together with what you had.

[A]

Yeah. And I think. I mean, that's. That's beautiful to hear you say that. I think that the. Yeah. The quality of relationship you have with someone who you're that close with is.

[B]

That's infinity.

[A]

Eternal. It is.

[B]

That is actually how you feel.

[A]

That's a really healthy form of infinity. Yeah.

[B]

All right. So lovely to have you. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

What a wiggly little conversation. I loved that whole discussion with Jacob. I could have kept him here for the 50 hours that he said that. He could just have talked about melody. And I'm grateful that he made me smarter. Not just about music and all the words that I say and don't really know the meanings of before, like bars and notes and melody and harmony and all that stuff, but also made me smarter about human anatomy. Like, what is a wienis? Who knew that it is rhymes with the other thing with a P, but much more picture. Anyways, that's it for this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. If you want to follow Jacob further and. And you certainly should, you can find him on socials. Jacob Collier. You could check out his new album, Light for Days, which he. I wonder if he's gonna win an eighth grammy for his sixth album. That would be pretty incredible. That's it for this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm your host, Naeema Raza. Today's show was produced with Desta Wonderad of Wonder Studios and Cam Schenken, whose voice you heard and the questions there, special thanks to Healy Cruise. Our theme music is by David Kahn, though it was interesting to hear how Jacob heard Smart Girl Dumb Questions too. It was edited by Darlena Chiem and our mixing is by Johnny Simon. See you next week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. By the way, if you like the show, please review it. Please leave a comment, and please definitely share it with your friends. And if you're watching or listening and you haven't hit, follow or subscribe, I'm offended. Please hit, follow or subscribe and tell your friends about it. Bye.