How Much Does Love Cost??! with Matchmaker Maria Avgitidis

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "How Much Does Love Cost??!"

Podcast: Smart Girl Dumb Questions
Host: Nayeema Raza
Guest: Matchmaker Maria Avgitidis
Date: November 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nayeema Raza invites fourth-generation matchmaker Maria Avgitidis (a.k.a. "Matchmaker Maria") to unravel the economics, psychology, and evolving traditions of matchmaking. They discuss the cost and culture of hiring a professional matchmaker, what intentional dating looks like, the complexities of power dynamics, and the sometimes surprising truths beneath modern romance. The conversation is peppered with humor, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and practical advice from Maria’s new book, "Ask a Matchmaker."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Maria’s 12-Date Rule and Modern Dating Practices

• Maria's "12-date rule" is less rigid than it sounds: it includes video calls, phone chats, and in-person meetings of at least 20 minutes and at most three hours ([02:14]).
  • Maria: "The purpose...is to actually show you, like, here's how you're going to be intentional in getting to know someone to see if you're emotionally compatible before you are physically compatible." ([02:14])
• Texting and audio messages do not count as dates—intentional, direct interaction is key ([03:44], [06:03]).
• She debunks the idea that 12 dates is a lot: most people don't make it to 12, and by then, you'll know if you want to keep going ([04:31]).
  • Maria: “Twelve-date rule method on average takes about two and a half weeks...I’ve gotten thousands of people engaged because of this method.” ([04:31])
• Why so many dates? To surface real emotional compatibility and counteract “perception bias”—the illusion of intimacy created by frequent but shallow texting ([03:22]).

2. The Business (and Price!) of Matchmaking

• High-end matchmaking is expensive: $25,000–$150,000, varying by level of customization, outreach, and client needs ([09:01]).
• Some contracts include a "success fee" if the match leads to a relationship lasting over six months ([08:09]).
• Constraints: The matchmaker’s time, the client's selectiveness, and the willingness of potential matches ([09:53]).
• Pricing too low can backfire: “If I was the cheapest, every single first date I set them up with had to be better than a trip to the Bahamas. And that's not possible. The expectations are too high.” — Maria ([11:06])

3. Handling Rejection and Client Preparation

• Maria rarely discloses all rejections back to clients, sparing them unnecessary discouragement ([09:08]).
• "Glow ups" are real: Maria’s team includes stylists who sometimes help clients spruce up their homes and wardrobes to improve overall appeal ([12:05]).
  • Anecdote: Even millionaire clients might be missing basics like a headboard or have flannel sheets—details that matter in building attraction ([12:26]).
• If a client is better served by therapy or advice than matchmaking, Maria is up-front about it ([15:11]).

4. Who is the Best Matchmaker?

• In an unconventional take, Maria claims a next-door neighbor is often a better matchmaker than a mom or best friend ([15:45]):
  • Maria: "They don't know you enough to reject really great people...Best friends tend to be the worst matchmakers..." ([15:45], [16:26])
• Friends’ and moms’ biases can narrow options to “single profiling,” a theme echoed in discussions about diversity, race, and cultural matchmaking expectations ([16:43], [16:58]).

5. What Makes a Relationship Work?

• The single most important trait for compatibility: conflict resolution skills ([17:18]).
  • Maria recommends introducing “friction” early on—a trip to IKEA or a Hibachi restaurant can reveal impulse control, communication styles, and adaptability ([17:29], [19:15]).
  • Maria: "Taking someone to IKEA can be a really great way to discover if you have complimentary conflict resolution styles." ([17:29])

6. Power Dynamics in Matchmaking

• Nayeema raises discomfort about being on the “product” side of matchmaking. Maria clarifies: the paying client doesn’t pay to meet a date; they pay to expand their network and increase opportunities ([21:25], [21:53]).
  • Maria: "My clients pay me to expand their social network so that I can introduce them to someone that they are compatible with that is enthusiastic to meet them." ([21:53])
• Discusses the import of inbound (attraction) versus outbound (aggressively recruiting) clients, drawing a contrast with pop culture depictions ([23:24]).

7. Matchmaking: Tradition, Technology, and Regulation

• Maria is a fourth-generation matchmaker, tracing her roots back to her Greek great-great-grandmother ("proxenitra") who built community and made introductions based on deep family knowledge ([25:40], [26:23]).
  • Cultural parallels with South Asian matchmaking—family and community are central ([27:33]).
• Today’s matchmaking is more technological, yet the philosophy is similar: community, context, and intentionality matter ([24:25]).
• Professional matchmaking is regulated by state (and province), with a code of ethics and industry conferences—yes, matchmakers have conventions and even a trade association ([33:10], [34:02], [34:30]).

8. Who Hires Matchmakers (and Why)?

• Maria’s firm (currently) only takes straight male clients, due to the complexity and emotional bandwidth demands of serving diverse markets; she refers female and LGBT clients to trusted colleagues ([28:08], [28:22], [29:09]).
• Women are increasingly paying for matchmaking, but tend to have more detailed or strict criteria than men—especially after waiting longer to make the investment ([30:10]).
  • There's a pattern: the longer someone waits and the more they pay, the higher their expectations ([30:10], [31:02]).

9. Ethics, Industry Codes, and Matchmaker Origin Stories

• Global Love Institute sets the profession’s code of ethics, which includes boundaries such as not dating clients ("don’t get high on your own supply"—a theme parodied in films like "Materialist") ([33:00], [33:10]).
• Some matchmakers started the job to meet a partner, but it’s generally discouraged ([32:19]), and onboarding clients with unreasonable standards is considered unethical ([35:22]).

10. Rapid-Fire & Fun Segments

• "Fuck, Marry, Kill" segment: Maria would marry a match from a stranger on a plane, kill arranged marriages, and “fuck” dating apps ([35:58]).
• Maria would choose "philia" (deep friendship/brotherly love) as the second-best form of love after "agape" for long-term partnership ([38:38]).
  • Maria: "If we can have a good community in Philia, it changes everything of how we feel supported in the world. And I think that's what's missing in dating right now is that support." ([39:49])

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Memorable Quotes

• On the high cost of matchmaking:
  "If I was all they could afford...every single first date I set them up with had to be better than a trip to the Bahamas. And that's not possible." —Maria ([11:06])

• On the rules and intentions of dating:
  “The only way to [date intentionally] is to judge emotional compatibility first.” —Maria ([04:32])

• On self-improvement for clients:
  "[We make] sure that the house that they live in is the house of...a person who is just outsourcing this to a matchmaker...we have had clients who didn’t even have headboards." —Maria ([12:05])

• On matchmaking’s biggest constraint:
  "...the number of people the person who wants to be matched actually is interested to meet with, and the number of people who want to meet back with them." —Nayeema ([10:00])

• On bad best-friend matchmaking:
  “Best friends tend to be the worst matchmakers because...the only title that they're confused about is the single.” —Maria ([16:26])

• On conflict resolution as key to compatibility:
  "Taking someone to IKEA can be a really great way to discover if you have complimentary conflict resolution styles." —Maria ([17:29])

• On relationship success rates:
  "I have rarely had a client go on six dates through us and not marry that person." —Maria ([08:12])

• On the difference between modern and past matchmaking:
  "What she did...was build community out of nothing...then it’s about taking in the information that people are telling you when you build that community." —Maria ([26:23])

• On the power of community and support:
  "There's something really powerful in community. And Philia is part of that...if we can have a good community, it changes everything of how we feel supported in the world." —Maria ([39:49])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 12-Date Rule & Modern Dating Defined: 01:01–06:24
• Professional Matchmaking Costs & Client Experience: 07:41–11:35
• Handling Client Expectations, Glow Ups, & Rejection: 11:35–13:04
• Who Makes the Best Matchmaker? (Neighborhood vs. Mom): 15:23–16:43
• What Matters Most: Conflict Resolution: 17:18–19:29
• Power Dynamics & the Feeling of Being ‘the Product’: 21:25–24:14
• Matchmaking Across Cultures & Time: 25:40–28:08
• Codes of Ethics, Industry Standards, & Conferences: 33:00–34:30
• Rapid-fire: Fuck/Marry/Kill Relationship Types: 35:46–37:26
• Greek Types of Love & Final Takeaways: 37:45–40:14

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Notable and Fun Moments

• Maria reveals she fired her own mom from the family business after just two weeks:
  • “She was a terrible matchmaker…she just does not know how to hide her facial reactions. She was just kind of judging.” ([24:35])
• Insight into the matchmaker “union” – conferences (sometimes on cruise ships!) and a real code of ethics for professional standards ([33:36], [34:02]).
• Maria’s final “dumb question”: Is there a secret reserve tank in cars when the gas runs out? ([41:04])
• Lightning round on whether you can trust a single matchmaker or if you should "date your own supply"—industry insiders say that’s a no-go ([32:02], [32:19]).

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Summary Takeaway

If you’ve ever wondered “How much does love cost?” in the era of apps and swipe-fatigue, this episode lays it all out: intentional dating means slowing down, the best matches often come via community not algorithms, and true love (or at least a lasting relationship) might cost as much as a luxury vacation. But as Maria and Nayeema’s candid—and hilarious—conversation reveals, the real investment is in self-awareness, clear communication, and sometimes, in making sure you have a proper headboard.

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Transcript

[A]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[B]

Learn [e-mail] I'm Naeema Raza, this is smart girl Dumb questions. And I'm sitting here today with fourth generation matchmaker Maria Ovgotitis. And what the fuck, Maria? You didn't bring me a date, you.

[C]

Know, you didn't pay me.

[B]

Smart girl dumb questions. This is what I want to get into with you today. I mean, I'm so fascinated by matchmaking, the power dynamics involved, the money involved, the history of it and whether the world was a better place when our parents were setting us up. Which is part of what I gleaned from your book actually.

[C]

Is that the conclusion you got?

[B]

That is the conclusion. Maria's written a great book called Ask a Matchmaker where it's kind of structured around questions. So this will not be a new format for you. The smart girl dumb questions format. Here's where I want to start. Maria, one of the things you outline is a 12 date rule for bonking. Bonking I think is a acceptable.

[C]

That is, that is the technical term.

[B]

Yeah, the 12 date rule. Instead of a three date rule instead of a, you know, sex on the first date rule, which no one's ever had that rule.

[C]

I don't think, you know, some people actually do have that rule.

[B]

One date rule.

[C]

Yeah, I've seen it. Some dating influencers will be out there on TikTok and I don't know how much they believe it or if they're trying to just monetize off of confusion of saying if we don't have sex on a first date. I know she's not my girlfriend, but let's, let's go back to the 12 day rule.

[B]

Yeah. I want to say I don't think that 12 dates is necessarily like for an individual a lot but I think for all of society across society as an average seems higher than today's dating culture. Right. What is today's dating?

[C]

I actually don't think so. I. Their evidence is showing the trends, reports are showing even from singles in America study that came out a couple months ago that more people are willing to wait a few dates until they have sex.

[B]

Yeah, But a few, 12 is for.

[C]

Few, but see, 12 date rule method is not 12 physical dates. So there is this sort of matchmaker Maria math that I outline in the book. Yes, I believe that there are different definitions for dates. And you know, the purpose of it is to actually show you, like, here's how you're going to be intentional in getting to know someone to see if you're emotionally compatible before you are physically compatible.

[B]

So in your book you talk about FaceTime dates or video dates, or phone calls. Those count. You have two short meetings, can count as one date.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

So like two 20 minute meetings.

[C]

The minimum of a date which can either be a phone call, a video call or an in person date has to be 20 minutes maximum three hours, that's what counts as a date. And you can have up to two dates in one day. So let's say, you know, Naima, you go on a marathon date that's like brunch in the village and then you get a watch an independent film at the Angelica. Now you're seven hours in.

[B]

That's not Maria. That sounds like a great date.

[C]

It's a great date, but it's not three dates. It counts for two. And what that does is it actually shows people that the person that you think you're falling for, have you actually gotten to know them or is it all via text?

[B]

Yeah, and not even just during via text. I think one of the things is when you're dating you can have so much information about someone. You can think about them, you can fixate if you want to. Like, you can believe that you know a lot about a person, a lot more about a person than you actually do because you're thinking about them. You can believe that you spent a lot more time with a person than you actually did because you were thinking about them.

[C]

Yeah, and there's perception bias here too, right? Like, oh, he responded quickly, that means he's into me. Well, maybe he just had a, you know, moment. Like if someone takes four hours to get back to you during the workday, they might also be at their job. Okay, but in the 12 date rule method, texting counts for nothing. And so there are people that I know that I've met someone online and they just have this whole texting relationship for four days. They think that they're in love. And I'm like, you haven't been on a single date. Yeah, but because if this method, I just want to say, like, I know that there's a lot of people that might not agree with it and that's okay. What I can say is that 12 date rule method on average takes about two and a half weeks. A lot of people are not going to make the 12 dates because you will see that after the fourth, fifth, sixth date, they don't make it. And also, I've gotten thousands of people engaged because of this method.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I want people to date intentionally. The only way to do that is to judge emotional compatibility first. Yes. That's the.

[B]

On average, to me, was always surprising. Cause I think in New York, it's like dating coordination should be a job. Like there should be an AI for dating coordination.

[C]

There is now. Yeah.

[B]

There is really like a scheduler.

[C]

There's scheduler.

[B]

There's like a calendly for dating.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's terrible. Is calendly gonna be bought by Hinge or something? Is that our future?

[C]

I'm sure there's going to be an API.

[B]

Yes. Okay. That's very, very concerning because it takes. I mean, for me, I feel like two and a half weeks sounds fast, but 12 dates sounds long.

[C]

But even in online dating.

[B]

Right.

[C]

What? You just said it sounds fast. It should be fast. Right. If you take online dating as a tool that it's meant to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You shouldn't be messaging for more than a couple.

[B]

I don't mean. I just mean between the first date, I would only count from, like, first time. And I don't date online a lot, but like, from the first time I meet someone to going on 12 dates with them just because of my travel schedule, et cetera, it can be hard to.

[C]

Three of those 12 have to be in person. I know what that means is you have to have an honest conversation with that person that you're dating and say, hey, I have to go. I have to travel. I would really like to FaceTime with you every night. What do you think about that?

[B]

You're right. I think of dates as physical dates. And what your kind of method does, which I think is fundamentally very different and is Matchmaker Maria math. Mmm. Method is really think of every interaction that you're learning about someone as a date.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Except for texting. That doesn't count.

[C]

Texting just doesn't count. Neuter audio messages. I've had people ask me, like, okay, how about an audio. No, it doesn't count.

[B]

Voice notes.

[C]

No, because you need to. You need to measure their reactions to when you're sharing about your day.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And also when they're sharing about their day, what kind of language are they using? What kind of accountability did they have? Over how their day went. That is what you're judging here. And also the commitment. No relationship can ever flourish if we're not vulnerable with each other. And vulnerability is required for connection.

[B]

You've set up 5,000 first dates.

[C]

Over 5,000.

[B]

Over 5,000 first dates. And only half of those have been for me. I'm kidding.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

No. But 5,000 first dates is a lot. Across how many people?

[C]

As a professional matchmaker, myself and my company, we only take, you know, 25 to 30 clients a year and over 17 years. That's going to be a lot of dates.

[B]

On average, how many people. There's a 12 date rule for how many dates you should go on right before you're intimate with somebody. But how many dates do people go on an average before they meet the person that they're going to?

[C]

How many matches have I introduced them to before they meet that person?

[B]

Yeah. And what do you call that, like the successful match? The lucky match?

[C]

You know, their last match.

[B]

Their last match.

[C]

But that you. That really ranges. Usually though, it's about match 3, 4, 5, 6. So it's in the middle. Usually if you're in a contract with us for six months, you'll probably get anywhere between 10 and 15 matches. I have in 2019, I remember I had four clients marry their first match. On average, about their fourth, fifth or sixth match will most likely be the last match. I've had clients though marry their first match. I've had clients have to wait until the very last match with multiple sessions of recalibration to get to that right match.

[B]

Okay, let's talk money.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How much does this cost? And is it per year? Is it per marriage? What's the pricing strategy?

[C]

Wouldn't it be great if I could get paid on marriage too? Well, a lot.

[B]

I do know that some people that are matchmakers do charge a bonus when you get engaged or married. Or a six month bonus, an engagement bonus and a marriage bonus.

[C]

I need to add my contract. Mine's at a. We do sometimes have for certain clients a success fee.

[B]

A success.

[C]

But.

[B]

And successes counts as six months.

[C]

Six months in a relationship with someone.

[B]

Six months is a success.

[C]

I have rarely had a client go on six dates through us and not marry that person like most of my clients.

[B]

Why?

[C]

You may.

[B]

Why are you making them wait for 12 then?

[C]

Maria, you know my client, I asked them one time to give me, hey, you got married. Could you please give me a five star review? And he's like, no, because you made me wait until 10 matches in. And I'm like, what?

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

But in terms of cost, it can range from service to service. You know, I think really great matchmakers, they tend to range at 25,000, going up to 150,000. It really depends on the level of work you are requiring for us to recruit the kind of person that would match with you, that's also enthusiastic to meet you.

[B]

Yeah. And also there are a lot of rejection.

[C]

There is a lot of rejection. Yeah, tons.

[B]

And how do you handle that back to your clients?

[C]

I don't tell them.

[B]

You don't tell them?

[C]

I tell them a little bit like, you know, what you're looking for has a lot of obstacles. We're going to get a lot of women or men who don't want to meet someone like you, but we're going to find the person who has the criteria you're looking for. Has the criteria that I think you should be looking for. There's a balance there that also want to meet someone just like you. So it's our job to meet those people. Right. We have to meet a ton of people. I have to meet, on average, about 30 people for every person they go out with. So another part of that cost is also the access to the matchmaker you've chosen. I feel like certain matchmakers, myself included, we can only handle a certain amount of clients at a time. And that sort of bandwidth, that sort of management, you know, having those personal conversations with each client every week. Yeah, that's. That's a time commitment.

[B]

I understand that the constraint is the matchmaker, and then another constraint is the number of people who are willing to meet with you.

[C]

That's the biggest one.

[B]

And also the number. So there's three constraints. The time the matchmaker has, the number of people the person who wants to be matched actually is interested to meet with, and the number of people who want to meet back with them.

[C]

There is one more criteria that will surprise you, which is you cannot charge so much less that you become the most affordable. I remember when I had first started out, I didn't know how much to charge. There also weren't that many matchmakers out in the world doing it professionally. So I was charging, let's say, beyond market rate. What that did, though, was attract the kind of people who could only afford me. They didn't see it as an investment in another matchmaker. They just chose me because I was the cheapest.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What that resulted in, that was the worst experience in dating for both of us. Both me as a matchmaker and for them because essentially, if I was the cheapest, if I was all they could afford, if. If this is all they wanted to spend, they. They may have had to give up a trip to the Bahamas. Right, right. For the summer, to afford me. And then as a result, every single first date I set them up with had to be better than a trip to the Bahamas.

[B]

Every single one.

[C]

Every single one. And that's not possible. The expectations are too high. So there has to be. From an economic standpoint, if you were hiring a dating service, it's not for everyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There are other things you could invest in that are much more affordable. But if you are the kind of person who would outsource certain things in life and you would use that for a matchmaker, then you have to find the price point. That makes sense.

[B]

Okay, so you said that you don't tell people when they're rejected.

[C]

Not always. It depends on what the rejection is.

[B]

But do you ever give them like a Rachel Leigh Cook style glow up from. She's all that, you know.

[C]

And she does, like some clients.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you do.

[C]

Of course. I mean, like, you do.

[B]

At the point of ingesting, like, I'm talking about them, like, their data. Like, at the point of receiving a client, you say, I heard this from another person who is a matchmaker. And she said before we do this, like, maybe, maybe, like get Invisalign, do this, do that, she'll actually glow them up.

[C]

We usually just do a nice photo shoot. We do have a stylist on our team, and we actually have that stylist go over their house too. We wanna make sure that the house that they live in is the house of not a single pathetic bachelor, but also of a person who is just outsourcing this to a matchmaker. And what I mean by that is we have had clients who didn't even have headboards.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Flannel sheets.

[B]

Flannel sheets.

[C]

And I'm talking about millionaires, chiefs of major companies. And I'm like, what's happening here?

[B]

They're still in a college dorm room.

[C]

College dorm room. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Those guys, I mean, they got to get ready for.

[C]

So we have to go up sometimes their apartments.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because that's sometimes the missing link. Right. Like, they've been on great first and second and third dates, but they've never been able to in a relationship because there's a woman out there or a man out there who's like, I. I'm not here to be your mother.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I. Yeah. I mean, the quality of someone's home tells you a lot about them. Yeah. That's why even if you wait 12 dates, I feel like you should at least try to check out the pad on, like, an earlier date. After the fifth date is when you recommend it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. You don't want to.

[C]

If you met through. If you met online, I would want to wait five dates in after. If you met through friends, it could be the second or third date.

[B]

I don't care. Yeah. Sometimes guys, like, invite you to their apartment because they're like, they. They know they have a sick pad.

[C]

They can always try.

[B]

They're like, oh, do you want to just swing by on the way to lunch? And then you just know.

[C]

Oh, you know what the worst guys are in New York is the ones with the rooftops. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, come by. Let me show you the rooftop. And then it's like, oh, yeah, if I show her a little New York City skyline. Because it is a natural aphrodisiac, isn't it? The Empire state building.

[B]

Yeah. I think there's also, like, in the movie materialist, which we'll get to like the high lofted ceilings of soho. Sure is. Is also an aphrodisiac in a different way. Okay. Do people ever ask for a refund if the answer is yes? I can sometimes tell from an interview what the answer is by how long it takes someone to respond to a question, not the answer to question. So the answer is yes, they have. They have asked you for a refund.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And that doesn't mean they get one. Okay.

[C]

You know it dep. I have to. If we have to get to the conversation of refunds, something has gone deeply wrong. I should be able to sense way ahead of time, oh, something isn't working here. What is it, and what can we fix? If I've ever had a client ask for a refund, which has been very rare. Yeah, we have to. Something was missing. I've had clients, though, get into relationships and get married through me and then ask for a refund. But that's.

[B]

That's the ones I'm. I'm curious about somebody who, like, gets in a relationship, the relationship doesn't work out, and then they come back to you and say, hey, this relationship didn't work out. I'd like a refund.

[C]

It's very rare. That hasn't. That's happened maybe once or twice in 17 years. However, I've had a lot of clients renew their contracts. So they dated someone again. That six state threshold. Most of those clients have gotten married. But let's say they dated, they had better dating experiences, and their client, their contract might end. I might not get them in a relationship in those six months, and they'll do like, I want to do it again.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

By the way, typically the reason why I pause on the refund question is because sometimes I'm the one offering it. It's not asking. I'm like, you know what? I'm. You've made a. You don't need a matchmaker. You need a therapist.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

You don't need a matchmaker. You need your mom. You don't need a matchmaker. You need a best friend. Like, this is what. What I can do and what you want might not be aligned.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Speaking of moms.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We'll do some, some lighting around a lot of mom's phone questions. Okay. Who's a better matchmaker? Your mom, your next door neighbor, or your doorman?

[C]

Personal question.

[B]

No, no, not cause of your mom. Okay. Who's anyone's best matchmaker? Their mom, their best friend, their next door neighbor.

[C]

Their mom, their best friend, or their next door neighbor? Their next door neighbor.

[B]

Their next door neighbor.

[C]

Because they don't know you enough to reject really great people. I think your next door neighbor is going to have a perception of your lifestyle. They're going to have a perception of, you know, are you in a lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, upper society, like what sort of neighborhood you're in. And then they'll be able to target people that have more opportunity to be in a long term relationship than your best friend ever will.

[B]

Okay, interesting.

[C]

Are you surprised by that answer?

[B]

No, I love that answer. I mean, I thought you were going to say something about, like, they, they see you in a different way. They see, they're like, they're. I don't know, they see things about you that other people don't see. But I guess your mom and your best friend kind of see those things too.

[C]

Yeah. I think best friends tend to be the worst matchmakers because. Because they just think of they know so many great things about you that the only title that they're confused about is the single. So what they do is they look for their single friends and they're like, okay, you two. And it's like, well, no, you. There's more to this.

[B]

It's like, it's like racial profiling. But it's not as serious as racial profiling. I don't want to get canceled for saying that, but it's like single profiling. I'M sorry. And by the way, racial profiling also happens in dating. I have a lot of friends who will be like, I also have a single brown friend. And let me introduce you guys.

[C]

I mean, I usually see this with gay matchmaking. You see friends who are like, oh, I have a gay friend. Oh, you're gay. You have to be my gay friend. There's like a thousand other things you should have thought about before the, like, yes, that's important, but it's not the. That's not what long term compatibility is based out of.

[B]

Okay, single most important thing for compatibility.

[C]

Your conflict resolution skills.

[B]

And how do you test that? By getting into a fight early. Dramatically.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you recommend actually having some kind of friction.

[C]

I think it's really important to have a little bit of friction in the beginning, I don't think. You know, you had Justin Garcia on a previous episode where he talked about how people feel more romantically inclined when they have a stressful. When they have some friction in the beginning. And it's very similar here. I think taking someone to IKEA can be a really great way to discover if you're. If you have complimentary conflict resolution styles.

[B]

Ah. Not just for the Swedish meatballs.

[C]

Not just for the Swedish peoples. Yeah.

[B]

Although I think I've been on a date on Ikea, actually, and it was a really fun date because if you go to IKEA on a date, you're not actually going there to, like, buy 18 pieces of furniture or like 17 plates or whatever it is.

[C]

But you can also learn a lot about people's impulse behaviors at ikea. Like, I remember this one story I heard about someone going to IKEA with their partner. They had just moved in together, and on their way out, they went to go get a desk.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But as they were leaving, he saw in the clearance a couch. And he's like, we should get this couch. And she's like, no, like, we're not here for the couch. No, we have to get this couch. And she's like, we don't need a couch. We have a couch. We can discuss this more. We. And I don't even want this color.

[B]

Everybody who's listening to this is like, I've had a fight like this. Maybe not about a couch, but yeah.

[C]

And that's a pretty serious decision because a couch is something that you tend to keep for years. And it's also going to be a backdrop on almost all family photos.

[B]

Right. And it's also like a financial reality. It's like, is this person going to be like, A kind of like impulse spender.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That's probably a major.

[C]

So you can learn a lot about someone in, in these sort of like high stress environments. Bed Bath and Beyond is also a perfect example of that. You don't have to go all the way to Red Hook to experience the IKEA date. You know, there's, there's a few places that you could go to. I also think Hibachi.

[B]

Hibachi?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I like Hibachi. The one where they throw the shrimp into your mouth. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You can learn a lot about someone who's eating with other people they don't know in that sort of table setting.

[B]

Yeah. Esther Perel, whose episode people can also check out in this podcast, has this rule as this idea that like your first date shouldn't be just you guys sitting oppositionally across each other from a table. Like you should bring people out to meet your friends. You should just do what you were going to do anyways and like bring someone along for that experience.

[C]

Fully agree. If your second date could be at a friend's birthday party, you are on the highway of a happy relationship.

[B]

But you said second date, not first date. You still think the one on one meet is important?

[C]

I think the first date, if you're online dating, it's a meetup. It's not necessarily this formal dinner date. I think it's more of like a walk and a gelato or a, maybe a glass of wine. And we really need to lower the temperature and expectations of a first date. If you're meeting online, if you're meeting through friends, that was your first date.

[B]

You're also like making sure that person is who they say they are or whatever. I mean, I feel like the online dating experience, you also need to know.

[C]

If you like the way they smell and if they make weird chewing sounds.

[B]

I want to talk about the power dynamics in matchmaking because I have had, I have had some matchmaking experiences, Maria, in my life. None with me, none with you. I never like as a paying client though. I want to talk to you about that, whether more women are paying. But I, you know, I'd been in relationships kind of from when I was 16 to 31. And when I broke up, there was this luxury matchmaking service and it was like this idea was like really high end or whatever. And I remember her reaching out to me and I was living in San Francisco at the time and like the first date the guy was like gonna send me a car and we're gonna have lunch at the Rosewood Hotel because he Was like flying in from somewhere and I just didn't like the sound of it at all. I felt like it's very Hollywood. Yeah, it's very Hollywood. But it wasn't about, I didn't think, oh, she was setting me up to be like, you know, Julia Roberts moment or something. Oh my God. No, I didn't think that. But I thought that there's gonna be this real power dynamic. Like if I have a relationship with this person who paid to meet me and like sent me a car and brought me to a place that's a, you know, I would say I'm more of a traditional girlfriend, but that is like probably too much for me.

[C]

It's interesting that that was your, the language you just used to describe that is very interesting. And I think that's at the fault of the matchmaker for not describing in more words of what their responsibility is. So you just said in your own words that he paid to meet you. That's not what any of my clients do. My clients pay me to expand their social network so that I can introduce them to someone that they are compatible with that is enthusiastic to meet them.

[B]

That is the truth of how the whole value chain works and what the service you're providing is. But I think it can feel like, right. It can feel that you're the product. It can feel like you're the product when you're the woman on the kind of like getting called up and, and being set up side.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And there's also a volume game, right. Like you at the end of the day are in some kind of volume game of. I've, you know, I am setting up this person, this person is looking to meet a lot of people. And therefore you're setting up many dates for the same person. Yes. It feels like a lot of dating feels like a transaction, but sometimes I feel like when I get a call from a matchmaker, it feels like I'm on the receiving end of a transaction, which I don't think it is. Like, I think actually the people who are using matchmakers are much more interested in having a long term relationship.

[C]

I, I believe so too.

[B]

They're putting their money where their mouth is.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But I'm just, I'm talking about a feeling that I had.

[C]

But I think what you are highlighting though is what you just how the question started, which is the power imbalance. Right? And there is a power imbalance. Someone has an, an invested interest to meet someone that they believe they would have a great relationship with. How much does that match have Say in who that is as well. Is this client someone I would want to meet?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You do have, and you do have a say on that. You can decline the date. You can. They'll keep you in mind for other dates. Like that is always the case.

[C]

This is why I don't believe. I think inbound marketing when it comes to modern day matchmaking is the only way. And that is where, you know, you mentioned before the movie materialist, you see the outbound approach, right. Where she chases someone down the street, she goes to weddings and gives her cards out. This is an outbound approach. Right. There's no real trust being established. It's just, well, call me if you want to be set up.

[B]

It's single profiling.

[C]

It is, it's single profiling. Whereas my company and you know, myself with, I've always tried to take the inbound approach. Let me make really good content. Let me write a book. Let me tell you where I come from and how I build community. These are my superpowers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And if you like it, you can always come to my website on your own and join my database. And that's how I can consider you.

[B]

Yeah. This is all so technological and it makes me think of the fact that you are a fourth generation matchmaker, the first to have founded a matchmaking company and commercialize and capitalize it in that way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But you often say you're a fourth generation matchmaker because. And skip your mom's generation when you say that. Right.

[C]

Even though she worked for me for like two weeks. Had to fire her.

[B]

Why?

[C]

She's terrible at it. She was a terrible matchmaker. She's like, she was. I remember she had, we talked to a client and she, you know, he's, you know, some clients, they, some potential clients, they'll talk in delusion. There's no other word to put it. And my mom just does not know how to hide her facial reactions. She was just kind of judging. And I'm like, don't judge it.

[B]

Guys. Today's sponsor, Dumb Question is from me. I'm going to take the next minute to tell you a little bit about Smart girl Dumb questions and to ask you for your help in continuing to make independent, fact based and curious journalism. No, I'm not going to ask you for money. Here's what I need. I would love you to tell 10 of your friends about the show or 100, I don't know, blast that reunion group that you muted and definitely tell your mom and tell your mom to tell her friends too. Even if you don't like the show and you're just like, hate watching it or listening to it, tell 10 of your friends to hate watch it too. Numbers are numbers, people. So five generations, excluding your mom. So that means your great great, great.

[C]

My grandmother's grandmother.

[B]

So, yeah, your great great grandmother.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Your great great grandmother was the first yenta in the mix.

[C]

Yes. And proxenitra, because.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good word. I know. I saw the. I saw the word in the book, and I was like, I'm gonna let you pronounce that. Say it again.

[C]

Proxenitra.

[B]

Proxenitra.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Sounds like so, like Russian dominatrix to me.

[C]

Could have some similarities.

[B]

Yeah. Really?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, Greek grandma. Pushiness.

[B]

Do you think dominatrixes would make good matchmakers?

[C]

I don't know. I think they make great therapists.

[B]

I don't think I want to meet their clients necessarily, but that's laughing shame.

[C]

Come on.

[B]

But okay, so how was your great great grandmother playing a role in setting up? How do you look at, like, what you do and what she did differently, besides the technology of it?

[C]

I think time and opportunity is the context of, like, how you have to look at what she did. So my great grandma. My great great grandmother lived in what is Asia Minor, modern day Turkey. They were uprooted from their homes after the Lausanne treaty was signed. I don't think it's that uncommon to know that there's a matchmaker in every neighborhood, in every community in Greece. That is how we met people up until 1980. And I think what she did and what her daughter and her granddaughter did really well was build community out of nothing. And my mother's really good at this too. She's exceptional at it. But then it's about taking in the information that people are telling you when you build that community. Like, for instance, you hear about someone's son who's got the travel bug, you know, he wants to get a ship and sail the agn. Or you hear about someone's daughter who's, like a rule follower. And you have to store that in the back of your head so that when the time for matchmaking happens, who is the appropriate match for these individuals, but also for these families? You know, I know that you are South Asian.

[B]

Yeah. Pakistani.

[C]

And I know that that's a very similar approach in matchmaking. Right. They'll look at the family and the community and the religion. Like, it starts to go. It goes outward. Right. And it's. It's very similar. I think in Greek matchmaking, right. You look at the, the social status, then you look at the environment or the community or the neighborhood. You know, religion's pretty much the same. It's the involvement of that religion, I suppose. But you know, it's the same. It's the outward looking into that person.

[B]

Are women paying more for matchmaking nowadays? Like you have more. I know you take exclusively male clients, right?

[C]

Yeah. Right. At this moment we currently take straight males as clients because we used to take straight women, gay men and lesbians. At some point I had a mental.

[B]

Breakdown because it was too much.

[C]

It's a lot of. You have to code switch between each different type of single when you're searching. And it was really hard to go from Talking to a 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have kids to then talk to a gay man who, you know, who wants to definitely date a top in New York City.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And it's like all this different vocabulary that's coming out and I feel like.

[B]

As the world has like moved towards like more diverse, you're like, no, like we gotta streamline to make a surgical process.

[C]

Yeah. And I found partners. So I have a partner who does, you know, female straight matchmaking. I found a partner who does gay matchmaking. I found a partner who does lesbian matchmaking. And that made it easier for us then to start recruiting people because I get to spend my whole day talking to wonderful straight women or bi women who want to meet a straight man.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Right. If there was a time when I had to do all. So it was just a more of allocation of my own and my team's emotional bandwidth. But yes, there is an increase in, in women seeking matchmakers to pay. We actually offer that as a service, I suppose. I don't know if it's a service, but women contact us all the time to hire us. We do take a couple of women each year, just case by case basis. If I can handle, you know, what.

[B]

They'Re looking for because you got the other side of the supply. I think you should be in both of these businesses. Kind of strange. Like, I feel like.

[C]

I know, but there's sometimes the paying woman isn't looking for the paying man and the paying man is not looking for the paying woman.

[B]

So does this come back to dominatrix is what you're, what you're talking about or is that some part of it?

[C]

No, I think it's just the criteria. It becomes very lopsided of what. When someone's paying what they're looking for and I feel like when women pay, they tend to be a little bit more strict than when a man is paying.

[B]

Okay, like more Karen's.

[C]

No, not in that way.

[B]

Okay. Just like they have higher bars.

[C]

There's a higher bar. Like if I had, you know, think about the woman who might pay us, right? She might be in her mid-30s or mid-40s. She's ready to make this investment. I think that's amazing. I would love to send you to the right matchmaker that fits the profile you're looking for. Yeah. And we're always open to having that conversation with any woman that comes through our doors. But sometimes, you know, they've waited this long that they're like, okay, now if I'm going to pay you, Maria, he better have a full head of hair. And if I'm paying you, Maria, he better be making seven figures. And if I'm paying you, Maria, you know, he better live in the island of Manhattan. I'm not willing to get on the PATH train to Jersey City. And I understand that. I appreciate the investment. But what's interesting is how many women I've met where that. None of that criteria came out in the initial interview. And I think it's because women talk to other women.

[B]

I was going to say, I think that women, a lot of women in New York have those expectations even if they're not paying a matchmaker.

[C]

I don't think so.

[B]

Really?

[C]

I think it's way. It's. It's architect articulated at a way less weight.

[B]

I feel like women have high standard and a lot of women in New York are like kicking ass at what they do.

[C]

And the difference is your friends. Right. So if you had those qualities and you talked to your friends and you didn't pay for it, you just had those qualities from online dating. Your friend would be like, naima, it's okay if he doesn't have hair. Relax. Stanley Tucci is sexy. This guy is sexy.

[B]

Stanley Tucci is very sexy.

[C]

Yeah, but if you hired a matchmaker, you tell someone, oh, I hired a matchmaker, she better. So your friends will be your advocate and then you're gonna relay that back to me.

[B]

You got a real problem with the best friend. Best friend is bad matchmaker. Best friend is interesting. Okay, so I wanna do a quick lightning round of different dating and matchmaking realities. So one, should you trust a matchmaker less if they are single?

[C]

No. Because I don't think your relationship status is going to impact how you. Your methodology to recruit great matches for your client.

[B]

If you're Single force. If you pretend you're single and you know a lot of people, should you become a matchmaker to meet somebody? Should you date your own supply?

[C]

You know, there's a lot of matchmakers in our industry who. That's their origin story.

[B]

100%. I've heard of this story.

[C]

Yeah, that's. I don't think it works. No.

[B]

Are they. Are those matchmakers who got into the business to meet a man or woman still single?

[C]

No, not necessarily. Some of them did, but they met through a friend. Because the truth is, if someone is signing up on your form, on your website to have an initial call with you, if they liked you, they would have found a way to meet you and not pay you for your time and not doing that.

[B]

Well, there's also. That's a real power dynamic because someone's paying you for a product. In that case.

[C]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You're the product.

[B]

By the way, in the movie Materialist, that does happen. She gets high on her own supply, not wanting to, but she does do it. I've not an ethical violation.

[C]

That's an insane. Like, that's actually against our code of ethics as matchmakers. We do have a code of ethics globally.

[B]

Matchmakers globally have a code of ethics?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is there, like, a matchmaking union?

[C]

There's. There's a trade association and a certifying body. So the Global Love Institute creates our code of ethics, and that's our certifying body. And then the Matchmakers alliance is the trade association that professional matchmakers belong to, to collaborate with each other in a safe place.

[B]

And you guys, like, meet. You go to, like, Florida for a convention.

[C]

Yes. So usually this year it's actually out of. On a cruise ship out of Miami.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

How many matchmakers will be on the cruise ship?

[C]

So that's the Matchmakers Alliance Conference. That'll be about 80 matchmakers. Okay. Which is. That makes more sense to us because it's the alliance, so it's the trade association. It's the more professional matchmakers.

[B]

And is there some kind of, like, mega database of all the single people in the. There's a database like all the single people in America that are done through.

[C]

No, but there's a. There's a. There's like three CRMs that have all the singles in America that are using matchmakers.

[B]

Wait, Maria, you got to give me access to that CRM. That is. That's probably against the code of.

[C]

Funny, though. In Japan, they actually made it a quasi public company, their matchmaking services, and.

[B]

They forced all government run.

[C]

Yes. So they forced all professional matchmakers to be in this one database. So now if you are Japanese, single, and you're hiring a matchmaker, you're actually just hiring the matchmaker for how good of a matchmaker she is versus how many people she can attract into her database.

[B]

That's so interesting. Or his database, because they are so concerned about fertility and, like, the replacement race.

[C]

Yeah. And their success metric is, like, way different. It's something like if you met. If you meet each other's parents, or if you go on a trip together, that's a success.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

This is a very interesting. Every country has its own things, but, yeah, the. The. We're very organized.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And we're. We're good. Some of us are very good friends with each other. Like, some, you know, we don't see each other as necessarily competition. We're more colleagues.

[B]

And is matchmaking regulated? I think a business. And who regulates it? Who's by state?

[C]

By state and in Canada, by province.

[B]

Okay. In New York City or New York State.

[C]

It's New York State. Yeah.

[B]

Is there, like a Hippocratic oath? Like, I feel like matchmakers should be like, I will do no harm.

[C]

We have a code of ethics. So that's what it is.

[B]

Is one of them like, I will do no harm?

[C]

Yeah. I think it's like one of the first ones on the code of ethics, and that.

[B]

That's really hard to guarantee in dating, you know, you.

[C]

I think I believe in one of our. In the code of ethics. One of the things is, like, we should only taking on a client that you feel like you can actually help. And listen, there are lots of clients who have even hired me that I believe I can help them. Some clients don't want to be helped. That's a really frustrating position to be in because they'll put certain metrics as you keep going that are just so high. I'm like, okay, now I have no one to set you up with.

[B]

Yeah. I want to ask you a Fuck Mary kill question.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[B]

Yes. First, Fuck Mary kill. Dating apps, arrange marriages. Oh, you didn't see that coming, right?

[C]

No.

[B]

Or blind dates from a person you met on a plane.

[C]

Okay. I would kill arranged marriages. I would fuck the dating apps, and I would marry being set up by a stranger. Really? That you met on an airplane? Yeah. Because I think someone sitting next to you on an airplane can learn a lot about you in those two hours. And they would make a great matchmaker if they know someone.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The truth Is that if you met someone right now, serendipitous, and you invested just a few hours with them, the chances when you seeing them again with their friends, the chance of you meeting someone and actually starting a relationship with them is exponentially high. Mm.

[B]

Okay. So serendipitous dating is more common than non serendipitous circumstances.

[C]

Yeah. Your friendship circle has already exhausted the possibilities of you meeting someone through them. Because if they had someone, you've already met them.

[B]

So it's the new supply that you're experiencing. It's the new supply. Okay, Interesting. All right, now fuck Mary kill about relationships. Sex on the first date, long distance relationships or ultimatums?

[C]

I would kill ultimatums. I would fuck sex on a first date and I would marry long distance relationships from a person from the. Which is actually accurate because I did marry my long distance relationship.

[B]

Interesting. Okay.

[C]

I think if there's really solid communication, there's a really great people that you're in the wrong cities.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and sometimes, and I think opening up your parameters just a little bit. I talk about this a lot in the book too. It changes everything. Yeah.

[B]

So new supply broadening is kind of a key message in your book. Okay, last question before I get to your question for me. Greeks have several words for love.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You have named your company, one of them agape, which means unconditional charitable love. Right.

[C]

It's actually. That's actually the evangelical Christian definition.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

The definition for agape to Greeks is the soul's recognition of another soul.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But it's the ultimate love.

[B]

That's the ultimate. That's the Aristotelian kind of love. Okay. There are other ones. I want to rattle through them real quick. And then I'm going to ask you which is the one beyond besides agape, that you would settle for a second best. Okay. So first, eros, passionate sexual love Ludos, which is like a playful flirtatious love pragma, which is the enduring love of, say, grandparents. Felucia, which is self love, very apt term. Or philia, which is a deep friendship or brotherly love. So if you can't have agape in your romantic relationship, what's the second best?

[C]

Philia.

[B]

Philia?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Really? The deep friendship or brotherly love?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. I wasn't expecting that.

[C]

You were expecting self love?

[B]

No. I mean, I didn't think you were going to be that woke about it or whatever, but whatever is the dating term for that. I thought you would say, like ludo.

[C]

So as humans, we have this instinct to connect and what we've done and what's actually kind of killed modern dating is that we're all participating in dating by ourselves on the couch, swiping, swiping, swiping, when the reality is that for the history of our species, we had our friends, our parents, our cousins, our aunties, our uncles, meddling in who we met, who we interacted with. And there is something really powerful in community. And Philia is part of that. Right? So I feel like if I'm going to go to, like, it would be amazing for anyone to experience Agape. And sometimes we only get it for a few years. You know, circumstances can certainly change, but if we can have a good community in Philia, it changes everything of how we feel supported in the world. And I think that's what's missing in dating right now is that support.

[B]

It's too individualized. I get it.

[C]

Right. And, but that's also like, I think what some of your listeners might be thinking, like, oh, my God, who would ever pay this woman 50 for, you know, 10 dates to show up with.

[B]

Some brotherly love, Right?

[C]

But the thing is, like, I think that there is this sort of thirst for people to connect with people and there is this sort of shortcut, like, well, listen, I can work with Maria, become friends with her essentially, and. And do this too.

[B]

Okay, last question I ask every guest on Smart Girl Dime questions is, what is a question that you have that you have wanted to ask that you've just like, been burning? Yeah, a dumb question.

[C]

I have one.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And this recently happened and I'm embarrassed because it's never happened to me before. I thought I ran out of gas.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And because it said in my Mazda CX5.0 miles. So I pulled to the shoulder, right, Waiting for triple A to come and give me a gallon. I left the car running because I needed air conditioning so I wouldn't die and never turned off for an hour. And then when he put the gallon of gas in, it was still zero. So is gas even real? Like, what. What kind of reserve tank is in my car that I'm not aware of that the gauge doesn't pick up?

[B]

This is a dangerous dumb question because you could really dumbly be keeping on driving and then find out the hard way that your car is just run out of gas.

[C]

So what happens in your car? So let me rework this. My dumb question is, is there a hidden reserve tank in your car that your gauge isn't reading? So if you run out of gas, you still can make it to the next Exit.

[B]

Yeah, it's like telling your watch it's like two minutes later than it is, so you always get there. Interesting. All right, we're going to find that out. Thank you so much, Maria, for doing this with us. We so appreciate it.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

You can find Matchmaker Maria at Matchmaker Maria on the Internet, everywhere. On social, TikTok, Instagram, you can find her book, ask a Matchmaker. And if you have $25,000 or so lying around, you can also go agape match. Maybe that's not the price.

[C]

It's a little higher.

[B]

Oh, fuck. Okay, bye. I'm gonna have to stop taking trips to the Bahamas if I'm gonna afford Matchmaker Maria's services. But I so appreciated her insight into the industry and her transparency about how this works, what it costs when people demand refunds, what they're looking for. And I think I really took away from that the. The desire to decelerate are thinking what we know and to put people more in tune with what we actually know when we're dating somebody. My other favorite part was that she's going to go on a cruise ship with 80 other matchmakers. And I just had never thought about the industry of matchmaking and how this all works. And I definitely have to get a hold of that CRM. Of all the single people in America, I definitely need that database. That sounds a lot more exciting than LinkedIn. And I know that the US government has just taken a 10% stake in intel, but I hope that they do not take a 10% stake in whatever dating databases that might exist in the United States. That's it for this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm your host, Naeema Raza. Today's show was produced with Analisa Cochrans and Wonder Studios. You should follow Smart Girl dumb questions on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'll see you next week.

[C]

Sam Ra.