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Smart Girl Dumb Questions
Is It Self-Care … or Capitalism? with Brooke DeVard
00:53:08
Is beauty in the eyes of the beholder, or in the eye of the Kardashian industrial complex? What is Instagram face? How do we all agree what’s in or out? And why oh why are thin brows back in?!
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- [00:00]
Naima Raza
Is Botox really preventative?
- [00:02]
Brooke Devard
I think that that is total bs. I'm like, so against this, like, myth. Everything's an industry, everything is run by capitalism. So it's like in your 20s, are you really going to start this, like, maintenance where you have to get Botox every, what, three months? Every six months?
- [00:16]
Naima Raza
Like, if you tell me you can't do it when you're pregnant or breastfeeding.
- [00:19]
Brooke Devard
Then you don't like to do it.
- [00:20]
Naima Raza
I'm a little bit afraid of what it means for my cells.
- [00:25]
Naeem Mahraza
Smart Girl Dumb. Welcome to Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naima Reza, and today my dumb questions are about beauty. How do we as a society decide what is and isn't beautiful and why does that standard keep shifting all the time? Also, how much of self care is just capitalism and taking care of the Kardashians, who, yes, need home renovations too. Now, there are not many worlds in which I can call myself a virgin, but when it comes to beauty treatments, you can call me Mary. And that's not some subtle flex. I definitely wear makeup. I care what I look like. I have a Dyson Airwrap. It's just that I'm just genuinely scared of penetrating my body with anything that sounds like it may harm me. And I'm talking about lasers and toxins and dye, and I'm so suspicious of things that sound like they're just ripping me off. And I'm talking about toners and serums and ingestible beauty. Like, why do I have to eat my beauty now? So I needed to ask my dumb questions to somebody who actually knows. And Brooke Devart is the perfect person for that. She was a Ford model back in high school, then she interned at Vogue. She went on to work at places like Ralph Lauren and Instagram, which is where I think we set our beauty standards these days. And she's the host of Naked Beauty, which just won iHeart's Best Beauty Podcast of the year. Here's my conversation with Brooke Devard.
- [01:49]
Naima Raza
Hi.
- [01:50]
Brooke Devard
Hi, Naima.
- [01:51]
Naima Raza
I need to know, in my prep for this, I need to know about salmon sperm.
- [01:55]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [01:55]
Naima Raza
But we're not gonna start there.
- [01:56]
Brooke Devard
Okay. Okay.
- [01:57]
Naima Raza
This is gonna be the cliffhanger salmon sperm. But I wanna start with this idea of Instagram face.
- [02:04]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [02:05]
Naima Raza
Do you want to explain what Instagram face is?
- [02:07]
Brooke Devard
Sure. I feel like Instagram face is poreless skin. Right. The skin is super smooth, like not a pore in sight. Kind of like a fox eye, like a cat, like a kind of upturned eye, full lips, very Sculpted, chiseled features. And then I think the important thing about it is also that it is, like, a little racially ambiguous. Like, the skin is fair usually, but there's, like, some racial ambiguity. It's like, oh, they could maybe be a little Asian, or their lips are so full, they could be mixed with something. So it's this kind of, like, racially ambiguous, very angular, lifted face.
- [02:42]
Naima Raza
Sculpted.
- [02:43]
Brooke Devard
Sculpted.
- [02:43]
Naima Raza
The term was coined by the celebrity makeup artist Colby Smith.
- [02:47]
Brooke Devard
Okay, I didn't even know that.
- [02:48]
Naima Raza
But it was popularized by Gia tolentino in this 2019 article for the New Yorker. And she says it looks at you coyly but blankly, as if its owner has taken half a Klonopin and is considering asking you for a private jet ride to Coachella and talks about that same idea of ethnically ambiguous. You said. And Cole. Colby Smith says it's Instagram face. Duh. It's an unrealistic sculpture. Volume on volume. A face that looks like it's made out of clay.
- [03:14]
Brooke Devard
Yes. I would say that that's accurate. And some of it is filters, some of it is makeup application. A lot of it is cosmetic surgery.
- [03:21]
Naima Raza
Yes.
- [03:22]
Brooke Devard
But I think we've seen over time, people all kind of go towards a similar aesthetic.
- [03:27]
Naima Raza
Yes.
- [03:28]
Brooke Devard
I was looking at something they were talking about, like, beauty in the 90s, and they were saying how different everyone looked. Like you would look at the top actresses and models, and they all were very different and distinct.
- [03:36]
Naima Raza
Right. And you think of that George Michael Freedom video with all the supermodels, and they all look so different. It's not one thing. Is it still our standard of beauty?
- [03:45]
Brooke Devard
You know, I do think it's changing a little bit. I was thinking about the popularity of Amy Lou Wood in the White Lotus, who has just these very beautiful, distinctive teeth, and how just everyone just kind of agreed, like, she's so beautiful, and part of her beauty is that she has these teeth that she hasn't conformed to the Hollywood norm of veneers. So I do think that there is. Lately, I'm seeing more appreciation for unique beauty.
- [04:09]
Naima Raza
Yes. That's historically been the case. I mean, Kate Moss. Beautiful teeth. That Welsh gap.
- [04:13]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [04:13]
Naima Raza
That's very standard in kind of Welsh society. Do you think that filters and Facetune is making beauty more accessible or making beauty more oppressive?
- [04:26]
Brooke Devard
Definitely more oppressive. I just did an episode of Naked Beauty where I had people write in questions, and I got a question from someone who said, when I put on my makeup, I see pores underneath, and, like, how do I get that Poreless look.
- [04:38]
Naima Raza
Yes.
- [04:39]
Brooke Devard
And I was like, it's not you or the makeup or the application. It's like everyone that you're seeing has a filter. When you go to film on TikTok, the filter's already there before you. I think you have to, like, opt out of it. Right. So I think filters are creating this very unrealistic beauty standard. And I think the Internet at large and social media has made way for us to appreciate different types of beauty. We don't only rely on magazines anymore or what we see on tv, but I think that it's really warping people's perception of what's normal.
- [05:10]
Naima Raza
I think I completely agree with you. It reminds me of when I was young. I remember I was in Pakistan and a cousin of mine, Fatima, we were watching MTV or something, and this is like the 90s. And she said, how come girls in.
- [05:23]
Naeem Mahraza
America have such shiny legs?
- [05:26]
Naima Raza
And I was like, you know, there's that concept of. It seems so. It seems like it's meant to be natural. Of course, now we know they all wear tights.
- [05:34]
Brooke Devard
Right.
- [05:35]
Naima Raza
Those are not their legs.
- [05:36]
Brooke Devard
Right.
- [05:36]
Naima Raza
But it was that sense that everybody should have this. That said, you know, NJI has article in the New Yorker. She said it was in 2019, something like $16 billion spent on cosmetic surgery in the United States.
- [05:48]
Brooke Devard
And that's only increased.
- [05:49]
Naima Raza
That's only. You think that's increased because of Instagram face and the fillers and the filters?
- [05:53]
Brooke Devard
Well, I just think in general, the obsession with. I think beauty has just grown as a category so much. I mean, skin care has grown exponentially.
- [06:00]
Naima Raza
When we're chasing this kind of beauty ideal. Women, you know, it said when women dress, they dress for women. Do you think when women, who are the predominant consumers of beauty.
- [06:11]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [06:12]
Naima Raza
Are chasing this beauty ideal, they're doing it for other women? Are they doing it for men or are they doing it for posterity? Like the images that are stuck in their Instagram forever?
- [06:21]
Brooke Devard
It's a really good question. I think they're doing it for themselves. I think, you know, one of the things that I've heard is that people want to look like themselves, but 10 years earlier, that that's like the ideal for beauty enhancements. I don't want to look different. I don't want to look like someone else. I just want to look like myself. Ten years ago.
- [06:40]
Naima Raza
Yeah.
- [06:41]
Brooke Devard
And that's what a lot of people go. Some people even go into cosmetic surgeons with images of themselves ten years ago and just say, I'm losing volume here. So I think it is really for yourself. Men don't really notice things. Right. I don't think a man's going to notice if you have extra volume in your cheekbones. I do really think it's something that people do for themselves and that is also to be celebrated. You know, I think that we can all make our own choices. It's. I think it's a slippery slope.
- [07:07]
Naima Raza
Right.
- [07:08]
Brooke Devard
Because you can do it and do it and do it, and then you start to become used to your face with these enhancements, and then you don't feel beautiful without them. Right. But it's a choice.
- [07:17]
Naima Raza
I just imagine you would go into a. Like, if I were to go in and see a plastic surgeon, I'd go in with like, a picture of Emily Ratajkowski or something. But I never thought about the fact that you're going in with a picture of how you used to look. That kind of restorative beauty.
- [07:30]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [07:31]
Naima Raza
But I agree with you.
- [07:32]
Brooke Devard
It is.
- [07:33]
Naima Raza
I don't know if humans were supposed to look at themselves this much.
- [07:36]
Brooke Devard
I agree.
- [07:36]
Naima Raza
The advent of the mirror, really.
- [07:39]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Or those super, like, magnifying mirrors where you can see everything so close. And then you just have to realize no one's looking at your face that closely.
- [07:47]
Naima Raza
No one's looking at your face. That is the thing that your mom used to tell you when you were a teenager, and she's like, no one's looking at your face. No one knows you have a zit. Is so true about all things in life. By the way, I just was seeing this survey that I think it was like 13, 14 that you'd start putting on makeup 10 years ago. Does that seem. Well, you were a New York girl.
- [08:05]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. 13, 14. That sounds kind of right. Yeah.
- [08:08]
Naima Raza
Right. 10 years ago in 2014, Cosmo said it was age 11 is the new age. And recently I've been seeing surveys that say it's 8 to 9 years old or that a majority of children 8 to 9 are wearing some kind of. Or have some kind of skin care or beauty care regime.
- [08:25]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [08:27]
Naima Raza
What do you think of that?
- [08:29]
Brooke Devard
I think it's good and bad. I think it's good to learn to take care of your skin at a young age. But I also think it can't be good for your skin. Like when I see young girls using specifically actives retinols, exfoliants. Like retinols? Yes. There have been all of these stories about girls that are like, 12 and 13, like, going and buying drunk elephant retinol.
- [08:55]
Naima Raza
Oh, God, that, like, beautiful. The mask that they have.
- [08:57]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Like, they, they basically want to start. They basically, they're watching their favorite YouTuber who's older than them, and they just want to do the same thing. They want to do the same routine. And they're thinking never too, you know, early to start.
- [09:08]
Naima Raza
And that's what we kind of tell them in the marketing and et cetera.
- [09:11]
Brooke Devard
Right.
- [09:12]
Naima Raza
Is this why, like, millennials are looking better than Gen Z? First of all, do you believe millennials are looking better than Gen Z?
- [09:19]
Brooke Devard
I don't buy that fully. I don't buy that full. Well. I've heard that people think that. Yeah. That Gen Z looks older than millennials.
- [09:27]
Naima Raza
Yes.
- [09:28]
Brooke Devard
I don't necessarily buy that. This is what I think. I think that kids that are Gen Z have grown up with YouTube tutorials, they've grown up with Sephora. They know their angles, they know lighting. They're doing things that we didn't do until we were in our 20s, basically. Like, I didn't, I didn't know how to contour my face when I was 15.
- [09:47]
Naima Raza
No, I just like learned like three years ago.
- [09:49]
Brooke Devard
Exactly, exactly. And we didn't have access to all. So I think doing things like contour and that makes you look older. Right. Because it's something that older people do. Like when we were 15 and 16, we were just had like eyeliner on and lip gloss. Like, we didn't know what we were doing.
- [10:03]
Naima Raza
Yeah, not at all. And it was too much blush. Like, I was just like in the too much blush era.
- [10:08]
Brooke Devard
I mean, I love, I'm like, you can never have too much blush. But yeah, so I think that that does make you look older when you're doing these, like, advanced makeup techniques. Because you don't look like a kid, you don't look like a teenager the way we did.
- [10:19]
Naima Raza
Right. That's interesting. But you don't buy the Gen Z. I kind of believe it because.
- [10:24]
Brooke Devard
Really? Why do you believe it?
- [10:25]
Naima Raza
Well, I will meet women who are in their 20s and then they will think they were older than me. Just. I just see it. But I. But you're right, it's nothing to do with their underlying skin.
- [10:34]
Brooke Devard
Right. It's because they look, they look like adults.
- [10:37]
Naima Raza
It's a whole aesthetic. And they're also wearing like more of like that kind of like tube toppy, big leather. I mean, it's this kind of grown up aesthetic. I think you're beautiful.
- [10:47]
Brooke Devard
Thank you.
- [10:47]
Naima Raza
When did you know you were beautiful?
- [10:49]
Brooke Devard
Ooh, interesting. I think my mother affirmed it for me when I was very young. Both of my parents did. So when I was, like, a toddler, we would do this, like, call and response thing where she would say, like, what are you? And I would say, I'm special. So I think because my parents knew that they were raising a black girl in a predominantly white environment, they really went out of their way to tell me that I was beautiful, to tell me that I was smart, to tell me that I was special, because they knew that the world wouldn't necessarily agree with that. So I think from as. As early as I can remember, I always felt beautiful because my parents really affirmed that for me. And I also think, you know, I had black Barbie dolls, we had Essence magazine in the house. I was kind of surrounded by examples of black beauty. So that was really affirmed for me early on.
- [11:28]
Naima Raza
In Pakistani culture, there's a lot of reverence for fairness. And so kind of growing up, you know, my parents instilled a lot of confidence in me, and I loved swimming and being outdoors, and I grew up in Indonesia, and so that was just part of my life. But I really thought beauty meant fairness as a child, because that was kind of what I was programmed by aunts and grandmothers. Music really sticks with me from when I was young. Music or lyrics that I heard especially as, like, in my early elementary years of people loving women that didn't look like the ideal Tribe Called Quest. There was that fife says, I date girls, Brown, yellow, Puerto Rican and Haitian. You know that lyric when you look at it now, Instagram face is ethnically ambiguous.
- [12:15]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, it is.
- [12:16]
Naima Raza
It is. You know, often a white face that has all these features from all over the world. So it has that. The South Asian eye, the kind of the Middle Eastern or Native American cheekbones, the African American lip, but the very Caucasian nose. So do you think that's a good thing, this melding of. Of beauty or.
- [12:39]
Brooke Devard
So I think in general, the melding of beauty. I think we all remember it. Was it at that Time magazine cover where they talked about what people would look like. I think it was in, like, 2050. And it was just that, this idea. And I also have a mixed race, two children. I'm like, I'm a new mom. So I'm like, I have two kids now. Yes. I think that we all are becoming more and more mixed, and we're. I think that's just part of how we're evolving, which I think is a beautiful thing. But I do think it's important to celebrate features that are unique to certain cultures, like monoracial beauty. I think I personally Feel very. I get like the ick when people say, like, oh, like, my husband's Turkish. So they'll be like, oh, you guys must have beautiful kids. Because, like, oh, mixed race babies are so cute. And I'm like, that's actually so problematic to say for so many reasons. And it's because the assumption in that is that if we were both black, that the child wouldn't be beautiful or that if we were both of the same ethnicity, that that child wouldn't be beautiful. There's just like a lot of.
- [13:35]
Naima Raza
I've never thought about that. The mixed race compliment is a dig to either race.
- [13:40]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [13:41]
Naima Raza
On its own.
- [13:41]
Brooke Devard
Yes, I think so. And I also think the issue with. And I think we see this all the time in black culture. It's like black elements of black culture are appreciated on white women, but not on black women. So it's like nail art and long nails or laying down your edges or cornrows or lip liner or all of these things that when black women do it is seen as ghetto or it's seen as not. Certainly not high fashion. But then when white women do it, it's edgy and cool and it's chic. And this is the new trend.
- [14:10]
Naima Raza
Right. I love wearing colors and patterns, like really, like, you know, over the top outfits. And people will sometimes say to me, oh, no, no, that looks too ethnic. But I think if a blonde woman were to wear that same outfit, it would not. It would look like style. But if I do it, it looks.
- [14:26]
Naeem Mahraza
Like on the nose somehow.
- [14:28]
Naima Raza
But there's. There are a lot of kind of implicit biases and, you know, in beauty. But I also think there's this desire to think the other thing is beautiful. I mean, when I moved from Asia to the US I was surprised by how many people thought, like, I was beautiful because I was dark, because I was naturally tan. I also think that, you know, as you grow up, you like, you lose people. Like, I lost my dad, and I'm so glad that I haven't like, changed any part of my face because I, like, look like my dad. And when I see. I look at myself in the mirror, I like sometimes. Sometimes see my dad.
- [15:02]
Brooke Devard
And that's beautiful.
- [15:03]
Naima Raza
You know?
- [15:04]
Brooke Devard
That's beautiful.
- [15:05]
Naima Raza
You worked at Instagram for a while? Yes.
- [15:07]
Brooke Devard
A long time. Almost five years.
- [15:08]
Naima Raza
And you intern at Vogue?
- [15:09]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [15:10]
Naima Raza
So is Instagram the new Vogue? Like, is it the arbiter of beauty?
- [15:15]
Brooke Devard
You know, it's so interesting. Instagram is so different depending on what you're into. Like, I look at my husband's Instagram or even my friend. And I'm like, what is your algorithm? Like, it's totally different.
- [15:23]
Naeem Mahraza
You know, what is your husband's Instagram?
- [15:25]
Brooke Devard
It's all pizza, sushi. It's a lot of, like, food. He loves to cook and a lot of DJ sets and a lot of, like, construction and, like, gardening. It's just. It's all of his interests. Right. Like, he's never seeing anything that I'm seeing, and I'm never seeing what he's seeing, which is by design. Right. Like, the algorithm pulls you closer and closer to your interests. But, yes, I think that the power that magazines used to hold and that traditional media used to hold is kind of moot now because of Instagram, because there are people, there's so many creators and so many influencers that have way more reach than Vogue, you know, way more reach than MTV had even in its peak, you know, so the rules are definitely being rewritten.
- [16:06]
Naima Raza
I am amazed by how we as a society are able to just agree on trends. It used to be in traditional fashion and you know this much more than I do. But, you know, there be these seasonal fashion shows, and we are agreeing on the style and not just fashion style being set there, but what hair should look like, how we, you know, whether what eyebrows should look like. Everything was set in the kind of fashion ecosystem. I'm curious, like, one, can you just explain how things used to be set? And then how do we all agree now that, like, you know, skinny jeans are out, why jeans are in? Or now they're, you know, now they're reverse or what kind of brow is it? The wildest version of this is that there are beauty standards for, like, women's grooming down there.
- [16:51]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [16:51]
Naima Raza
Where, like, Brazilians are in bush is in whatever it is.
- [16:54]
Brooke Devard
Right. And it's just gonna keep going back and forth.
- [16:56]
Naima Raza
And how do we as a society concur on Instagram face or anything else?
- [17:01]
Brooke Devard
So I have two answers to that, I think. One, the. And I'll speak about it from a beauty perspective. There are people that still set trends in beauty from the Runway that trickle down into drugstores. So I think about someone like Pat McGrath, who does the makeup for a lot of the, like, biggest shows on the Paris Fashion Week calendar and also a little bit in Milan. But when she does something, when she does, like, a blush placement that's a little bit different, everyone in the beauty world pays attention. All of the makeup artists pay attention. And then you're gonna see it on. I don't Know, Kylie Jenner at. On. On a red carpet. And then girls are going to be redoing that tutorial at home. So there is. I think there are still some makeup artists that have the power to create a trend and have it, like, trickle down.
- [17:41]
Naima Raza
Yeah, it's like the Ronald Reagan economics equivalent of beauty.
- [17:45]
Brooke Devard
Exactly.
- [17:46]
Naima Raza
Trickle down.
- [17:46]
Brooke Devard
Trickle down.
- [17:47]
Naima Raza
Like, trickle down. Blush placement.
- [17:48]
Brooke Devard
Blush placement, yes. And I think a lot of people remember that scene from Devil Wears Prada where, you know, she goes through the whole thing about this is cerulean blue. So I think. Yes, I think. I think runways, because a lot of people in fashion and in beauty pay attention to the runways. I certainly pay attention to it. I think that does trickle down in what we see in every day. But I agree, the power structure has been totally reversed. And I think a lot of times people that are doing makeup for runways are actually looking on Instagram. They're seeing what the girls are doing on Instagram. I think about Donnie Davey. I interviewed her back in 2020 when she had just wrapped the first season of Euphoria, and she. You remember Euphoria? Makeup was, like, such a big deal. She was a make artist for Euphoria, and she talked about.
- [18:30]
Naima Raza
How would you describe Euphoria makeup for people who haven't seen it?
- [18:33]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Bright colors on the eye, lots of kind of graphic liner. But it would be like, you know, blue eyeliner or, like, yellow eyeliner or, like, adding sparkles, like, under your eyes or just really going for it.
- [18:44]
Naima Raza
Yeah.
- [18:44]
Brooke Devard
But she talked about her process for creating that makeup was looking at, like, young girls on Instagram and seeing what they were doing with their makeup and seeing what girls in high school were doing. And then she brought that to, you know, the HBO screen.
- [18:56]
Naima Raza
Right.
- [18:56]
Brooke Devard
So there is this kind of, like, loop that's happening. But back to your earlier question about how do we all collectively agree on these things? Because I had a part two to that pendulum swinging. Like a pendulum swings one way and then another way. So it's like baggy jeans, skinny jeans, Brazilian waxes, full bush. Like, there are these, like, pendulum. We see it in politics. Right. Conservatism, liberal.
- [19:18]
Naima Raza
Yeah.
- [19:19]
Brooke Devard
So I think that's a lot of what we're seeing in terms of, like, beauty. So. Right. Like, I think there was this whole, like, bbl curvy era where everyone wanted to be super curvy and women were getting lots of surgery to be more curvy. And now we've seen the pendulum swing completely the other way to Ozempic, super skinny, double, double zerofish. Right. Which we saw in the 90s. So I think that a lot of it is like pendulum swinging. So it's like if thick eyebrows are in now, then thin eyebrows are gonna be in next. Like, it just keeps going back and forth.
- [19:50]
Naima Raza
That is like what's out is suddenly in. Yes, that is a. And is that commerce? Is that the desire to sell us stuff which is like, oh, no, we need to sell them a new run of jeans. So now gotta bring them back.
- [20:01]
Brooke Devard
All capitalism. And it's like skinny jeans are back, but they're not the skinny jeans that you used to have. Those aren't we, you know, we've changed the pockets a little bit and, like, this is the new skinny jean that you need to have.
- [20:11]
Naima Raza
And how should we consume in this environment?
- [20:13]
Brooke Devard
I mean, I don't even believe. I don't believe in participating in trends. Like, I try to do what I like completely independent of what's happening in the trend cycle. I think that it's kind of like just a rat race if you're just always. And I think the people that have the best style, there's like a consistency, there's like a uniqueness. You know, they're not like falling victim to whatever the algorithm says they should be wearing.
- [20:36]
Naima Raza
Totally. Like, I feel like no matter what's in, I'll always be like, mob wife aesthetic.
- [20:39]
Brooke Devard
Yes. See, that's great.
- [20:41]
Naima Raza
That's the vibe, right?
- [20:42]
Brooke Devard
And it's like you were mob wife aesthetic before it even had a name.
- [20:44]
Naima Raza
So your theory of this is that, okay, there's a bit of top down, trickle down, there's increasingly more bottom up, where, you know, people at the top are paying attention to what the kids are doing, what the influencers are doing, and then putting it back into the cycle. And then the main shift is this kind of like pendulum. Pendulum left, right, left, right of whatever it is. So what's in right now? What is trendy right now? I know you don't participate, but, well.
- [21:12]
Brooke Devard
The latest beauty trend that everyone's talking about, at least in, like, makeup artists and beauty circles, is no lash. Looks so full, glam, but without any mascara or added lashes.
- [21:22]
Naima Raza
But you still keep your lashes. No one's taking the lashes off.
- [21:25]
Brooke Devard
You still keep your lashes, but you don't enhance them. So it's like. It's like this full makeup look. And I think for so long, everyone had false lashes, big lashes, big fluffy lashes. Now the trend is no lash, which I personally don't agree with.
- [21:41]
Naima Raza
Yeah, I was very worried that, like, we're supposed to remove our lashes. I'm like, do not remove your lashes if you're listening to this or watching this. Yeah, I don't love that either. I love lashes. Okay, so no lash. Anything else that's in. Thin brows are supposedly coming back.
- [21:55]
Brooke Devard
Thin brows are definitely coming back. I do think that, I mean, lip liner has been. I mean, for black and brown communities, lip liner has always been a thing. But I think we see, like, more and more, like, lip liner, lip combos. I think the days of just, like, putting on just like the gloss are slowly fading away. Okay.
- [22:14]
Naima Raza
So the no makeup makeup aesthetic is going away a little bit or that.
- [22:17]
Brooke Devard
You know, it's so interesting. Like, the pendulum again with that has swung so much. Like, I remember early, like, glossier days. Yes. That was like, that was it. Like, you know, you wanted to just be like, no makeup, makeup. And then I think it went the other way where people really wanted full glam. Especially after the pandemic, people really wanted to, like, do makeup. But then I do see, like, we're kind of going back to the more, like, minimal. Clean girl aesthetic is the new name they've given it, you know, popularized by Hailey Bieber. So, I mean, I love a clean girl aesthetic because it focuses on skin, and I think skin is always just so beautiful and we don't need to, like, put so much to cover it up. So I think that's always like. I don't know if that's like, a trend. Right, right. That's like a forever beautiful thing.
- [22:56]
Naima Raza
That is a forever beautiful thing. But then there's the, like, Eva Mendes, forever mob wife, which I kind of love that.
- [23:01]
Brooke Devard
No, I love that too.
- [23:02]
Naima Raza
What's the next beauty shift, you think? So clean girl aesthetic is the thing right now.
- [23:07]
Brooke Devard
I think that people are going to pare down their skincare routines. I think we've. I think we've pushed it as far as we can push it in terms of people just doing the absolute most having, like, 10 steps. I think people really want to go back to simplicity. They just want a few things. I know you said your dermatologist is always telling you, like, cut it back.
- [23:23]
Naima Raza
Yeah.
- [23:23]
Brooke Devard
And all dermatologists will agree, like, people are just doing entirely too much.
- [23:27]
Naima Raza
Yeah. Less is more.
- [23:28]
Brooke Devard
So I think we're going to see a lot more like multi use products. Right. Like a moisturizer that also has some properties that you'd want in a serum that maybe you can even use under your eyes. Like, I think people are going to want to have less products and do less steps.
- [23:42]
Naima Raza
Okay. I have so many dumb questions like what is the difference between a serum and a moisturizer? We're going to get to that. There are some things that I just think are scammy. Like one is parabens. Like I, I think parabens were created as a way to tell me something doesn't have parabens. Because when I go, I have gone to Target and like looked at all the shampoos.
- [23:58]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [23:58]
Naima Raza
And very few of them have parabens at all.
- [24:00]
Brooke Devard
Right? Yes, absolutely. I think that there, there was like that clean skincare movement that like or clean beauty movement that basically fear mongered and like made everyone think that everything we used was like killing us. And most things are paraben free. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:15]
Naima Raza
That's just a marketing. A little bit of a bamboozle.
- [24:18]
Brooke Devard
A little bit. A little bit. I mean and then some. But also I have to say because there's so much nuance in all of this. Some parabens are good and they help products be shelf stable. So there was also an instance where like a lot of these like super clean like indie beauty brands that were like using like no parabens, no preservatives, nothing. People were breaking out horribly because the products weren't shelf stable. And you know, you could, once you open them, you had like, I don't know, six weeks to use it or three months to use it.
- [24:42]
Naima Raza
Yeah, that's like a double commercial boom. Because they're like, they're selling it too because it has no parabens. Then you have to replenish it in six weeks. Like capitalism is screwing us every minute.
- [24:49]
Brooke Devard
I think for shampoo it's good to look for sulfate free.
- [24:51]
Naima Raza
Okay, I want to do a quick round of what I think is it. I want to do basically do we splurge, substitute or skip. Okay, packaged hair oils is a splurge. Coconut oil is a substitute or do you just skip it altogether?
- [25:05]
Brooke Devard
I think you can do your own hair oil mask. I don't know if coconut oil is the best. Like I think neem oil is really great for your hair. Alma oil, a lot of things that they use in like ayurvedic beauty. But yeah, I mean most of these like fancy like oils are. You can just buy them. So duplicate substitute.
- [25:23]
Naima Raza
Okay, great. Lymphatic drainage versus rubbing yourself with a loofah versus doing nothing at all.
- [25:28]
Brooke Devard
I love lymphatic drainage. I do think you can do like dry brushing at home. I'm like, I don't feel confident that I know where like the lymph spots are like. I've, like, watched tutorials to, like, drain the lymph. So when I go to get it done, it feels so good, and it's so relaxing. So, like, I'm like, okay, leave that to the professionals.
- [25:45]
Naima Raza
Okay. Splurge. Got it. Ingestible collagen versus drinking broth versus just eating what you eat.
- [25:52]
Brooke Devard
I don't do any of that. But ingestible collagen has been proven to work. There's even ingestible retinol, which I've learned about recently. Yeah. Which has been proven to work. But I think whenever you can get something from a direct food source, that's always better than. So I think, like, broth. If you can get, like, good animal broth in, then that's great for collagen.
- [26:10]
Naima Raza
Okay, so just eating healthy.
- [26:12]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [26:13]
Naima Raza
Okay. Botox versus face yoga. No talks.
- [26:16]
Brooke Devard
Okay. I love face yoga, and I've been doing it recently, and it really does help to strengthen the muscles in your face. Like, okay, you don't realize how many muscles you have in your face. So, yes, you can strengthen the muscles in your face. And that kind of, like, helps with the scaffolding, but it's not a Botox substitute.
- [26:31]
Naima Raza
Can you show us your best face yoga move?
- [26:34]
Brooke Devard
Ooh. Okay. I like doing this one because it kind of, like, helps to, like. Yeah, it, like, basically helps to lift the face and, like, strengthen the cheekbones.
- [26:43]
Naima Raza
Okay. This is like the downward dog of face yoga.
- [26:46]
Brooke Devard
There's also, like, this where you, like, kiss you basically. I'm like, I hope people are watching the YouTube. You basically, like, like, almost, like, blow out and kiss. And that helps to strengthen.
- [26:57]
Naima Raza
Okay.
- [26:58]
Brooke Devard
Because you kind of get these, like, wrinkles. Not wrinkles, but, like, bands in your neck.
- [27:01]
Naima Raza
Yes.
- [27:02]
Brooke Devard
So that helps with that.
- [27:03]
Naima Raza
So the first one we were doing for people listening is that you're basically starting at your jawline, your chin, and rubbing up along to your ears.
- [27:11]
Naeem Mahraza
Yes, that's the first.
- [27:12]
Naima Raza
That's a downward dog move. And then the second move was you're lifting up. We're lifting up our neck so chin.
- [27:17]
Brooke Devard
Into the air and then, like, blowing out.
- [27:18]
Naima Raza
Blowing and kissing.
- [27:19]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [27:20]
Naima Raza
Okay. Okay, good. And that gets rid of these lines?
- [27:24]
Brooke Devard
Yes, it basically helps to strengthen those lines.
- [27:26]
Naima Raza
They should just add 10 minutes of face yoga to the end of every yoga class, I think.
- [27:29]
Brooke Devard
Oh, that would be a really fab idea. That may be a franchise.
- [27:32]
Naima Raza
Should we start this? Yeah, we have to stop recording and do that.
- [27:38]
Naeem Mahraza
Do skincare and beauty products actually expire? The answer is yes, but the timer really Starts ticking when you open the bottle. I'm Naeem Mahraza, host of Smart Girl Dumb Questions, and this is a sponsored Dumb Question brought to you by Hi bb. So I get all this swag and samples in my life, and I hoard those products for a rainy day. Yeah, it turns out they don't last forever. Ingredients break down and air, light, bacteria all accelerate that process. So as a disclaimer, you should check your own dates on your specific products. But as a general rule of thumb, mascara lasts about three to six months.
- [28:10]
Naima Raza
Once you open it.
- [28:12]
Naeem Mahraza
Anything after that and you might be flirting with an eye infection. When it comes to foundation, that's more like six to 12 months. And if it starts to separate or smell weird, it's time to say bye, baby. Lipstick, meanwhile, is more like a year. And if it starts to drag or smell like a crayon, you should draw it a tombstone. And sunscreen. This one is really important. It has an expiry date and you should check it because expired SPF is not going to protect you. But the bigger issue isn't about when products expire. It's about why we buy so much stuff and have so much stuff that we do not need.
- [28:42]
Brooke Devard
Need.
- [28:43]
Naeem Mahraza
That's why I like what Hibbi is doing. They make it easy to filter through the process and identify just those products that you actually need. Go to hibb.com today and take the quiz to find out what products you want to splurge on, substitute, or skip.
- [29:00]
Naima Raza
So I want to do a little bit of a lightning round to ask all my dumb questions to you because I really don't know enough. I don't know enough. Okay, fuck Mary. Kill.
- [29:08]
Brooke Devard
Okay. Ooh.
- [29:10]
Naima Raza
Skincare, body care, makeup.
- [29:14]
Brooke Devard
Well, you have to kill makeup.
- [29:16]
Naima Raza
You have to kill makeup.
- [29:17]
Brooke Devard
But skincare and body care aren't those kind of one and the same, Taking care of the skin on your body.
- [29:21]
Naima Raza
Okay, fine. Skin, body care, makeup, and hair care.
- [29:25]
Brooke Devard
Okay, kill. Makeup still. Okay, I guess. Fuck hair care. And Mary. Skincare.
- [29:33]
Naima Raza
Mary.
- [29:34]
Brooke Devard
Skincare. I think skincare. Like, I gave birth and did my full skincare routine. Like, I need to do skincare right after giving birth. Like, in the hospital. Had, like, my. Like my moisturizer that makes me feel good. Like my facial mist. Like, I think skincare just. I think it's just so important. Yeah, I couldn't imagine participating in beauty without skincare.
- [29:53]
Naima Raza
So for me, it might be hair care. I was 10 minutes late to my ACL surgery because I was like. I was like Dyson in my hair air Wrapping my hair. But I had the next surgeon, so I'm like, you never know who you're.
- [30:03]
Brooke Devard
Going to meet in that waiting room.
- [30:04]
Naeem Mahraza
Never know.
- [30:05]
Brooke Devard
You never know.
- [30:05]
Naima Raza
I love that you had a baby and then. And put on skincare.
- [30:08]
Brooke Devard
Yes, absolutely.
- [30:09]
Naima Raza
Do you put skincare on the baby as well?
- [30:11]
Brooke Devard
No, babies can't really do anything fun. I mean, petroleum jelly. That's it.
- [30:15]
Naeem Mahraza
That's it.
- [30:15]
Naima Raza
A little Vaseline? Yes, that's beauty care. Okay, what is the right order of skincare? Well, you said 10 steps. Is 10 steps the right number? Steps?
- [30:24]
Brooke Devard
No. So I think let's do it for daytime cleanser, which is optional in the morning. Like, I don't cleanse my face in the morning because I find it to be too drying. But in general, you want to cleanse your skin at least once a day. I do. I do double cleansing at night, but cleanser first. And that just, like, primes the canvas. Right? That's like, you have to just get dirt, debris, sunscreen, oils, everything off. Then toner. Now toner, I think.
- [30:54]
Naima Raza
What is toner? What is toner? Toner seems like a scam.
- [30:57]
Brooke Devard
The toners of the past were like astringents. Like, they were like, they would kind of strip your skin. They were like, to, like, clean your skin again. Now new toners are more like essences. So it's like kind of like a sip of water for your skin. They're like hydrating liquids that kind of like, prime your skin to receive serum and moisturizer.
- [31:15]
Naima Raza
Okay. Do they retire all the old astringent toners? Are they still out there?
- [31:20]
Brooke Devard
I think they're still out there. Like, I think you can find, like, Stridex wipes if you're, like, looking for them.
- [31:24]
Naima Raza
So if we're looking, like, on a bottle, how do we know if it's good? New toner versus old toner.
- [31:28]
Brooke Devard
So the older toner will have, like, alcohol as, like, pretty high up in the ingredient list. And more of the new toners, you'll see, like, aloe. Aloe vera. Like, hydrating. Okay. They're rice water toners now.
- [31:38]
Naima Raza
Like, oh, that's very Asian. Like, I lived in Vietnam for a while, and they. A lot of rice water.
- [31:42]
Brooke Devard
Yes, yes, yes. Essences are, like, directly. We just took that from Asian beauty culture.
- [31:47]
Naima Raza
Okay.
- [31:48]
Brooke Devard
So, yeah, most toners are more kind of like essences now.
- [31:50]
Naima Raza
Okay. So cleanse, tone.
- [31:52]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Exfoliate. I'd say two to three times a week. So that can be a chemical exfoliant or a physical exfoliant. I like a chemical Exfoliant. So that's like an aha Or BHA like, the Paula's Choice BHA exfoliant, I think is, like, brilliant and, like, it makes everyone's skin look so good. And then you're going to go in with a serum. So that can be like hyaluronic acid niacinamide. The serum is usually used to treat something. So, like, if you have dark spots, then your. Your serum, you need a serum that targets dark spots. If you have. If your skin's really dry, you're going to use, like, a hyaluronic serum that's going to, like, put moisture back into the skin. And then you seal everything with a moisturizer.
- [32:27]
Naima Raza
Yeah. Okay. And then the final.
- [32:30]
Brooke Devard
And then. Yes, and then, of course, sunscreen and sunscreen.
- [32:33]
Naima Raza
Always sunscreen. So you. So you did cleanse, tone, sometimes exfoliate.
- [32:38]
Brooke Devard
Yes, and I kind of, like, mixed up daytime and nighttime. I do exfoliation at nighttime because that can make your skin more sensitive to the sun.
- [32:44]
Naima Raza
Okay, so daytime is cleanse, tone, serum, moisturizer, sunscreen.
- [32:49]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [32:49]
Naima Raza
Okay, great. And now give us the nighttime. You take it off.
- [32:52]
Brooke Devard
I do double cleansing. So I do an oil cleanser because I have to get my makeup off. And then I go in with a foam cleanser. Then I do the exfoliant. So the liquid exfoliant and then a serum. So it could be a vitamin C serum. It could be a serum with, like, transexamic acid in it, which is good for, like, hyperpigmentation. Transamic acid.
- [33:12]
Naima Raza
Okay.
- [33:13]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Or like licorice root or a bakuchi oil. Or if you're using retinol, you would do your retinol then. And then you do the moisturizer.
- [33:20]
Naima Raza
Okay, this is very helpful. Essence serum creams, et cetera. Like, what is the difference? Is it in the formulation of the product? Is it a vibe?
- [33:30]
Brooke Devard
You want to layer your products from, like, thinnest to thickest. I think that's really helpful.
- [33:34]
Naima Raza
That's super helpful.
- [33:35]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Thinnest to thickest. I did skip eye cream because I don't want people to think you need eye cream. I personally love an eye cream.
- [33:42]
Naima Raza
You don't need eye cream.
- [33:43]
Brooke Devard
You don't. It's not essential.
- [33:44]
Naima Raza
Is eye cream. I mean, it's so funny that it's like a different cream for your eyes. It just seems like capitalism gone rogue. But I'm also like, is eye cream real or is this $120 of hope in a J?
- [33:54]
Brooke Devard
It's definitely hope in a jar. But the skin around your eyes is more sensitive. So a lot of products that you have for your face, you really can't use around your eyes or it's gonna cause irritation. And I just, I love like a good like hydrating eye cream. I think also eye cream with caffeine in it is really great if you have like bags or like puffiness. So a lot of people will see like huge differences in the puffiness under their eyes when they use an eye cream with caffeine in it.
- [34:18]
Naima Raza
How much of what we put on the face you said start from than it's to thickest. How much of what we put on the face actually penetrates the skin and how much of it is just like sitting on top? Sitting on top making us feel fancy.
- [34:31]
Brooke Devard
So ideally all of your skincare is penetrating the skin. I don't have the exact scientific answer, but the essences that I mentioned, a lot of people will do like a spray on essence or toner too. The idea is that damp skin receives products better. So like when you get out of the shower, when you put on moisturizer or lotion out of the shower, that's going to to like keep your skin hydrated for so much longer than if you put it on dry skin.
- [34:54]
Naima Raza
Okay.
- [34:55]
Brooke Devard
So even when doing skincare, like if I like waste too much time in between skincare steps, I re spritz with like a water to like make my skin damp to receive the skincare exfoliation.
- [35:05]
Naima Raza
I wanted to ask about, are we like snakes with so much skin to shed? Like, what is happening with exfoliation? Because I do think that like, especially if you're using retinol, et cetera, which I, I use tretinoin three times a week.
- [35:19]
Brooke Devard
Okay, great.
- [35:20]
Naima Raza
Skin that's exfoliating. So then I don't need to exfoliate, Correct?
- [35:24]
Brooke Devard
No, no, no. Your tretinoin has exfoliants in it. So you. I'm, because I'm breastfeeding now, I can't use retinol, so I've got to exfoliate other ways. But I think the rate at which your skin's cells regenerate slows as you age. That's why like kids don't need to use retinol or like exfoliate.
- [35:43]
Naima Raza
Although you said 8 year olds are using it, but now unfortunately.
- [35:47]
Brooke Devard
But yes, as we get older that process, you just like need to like speed up the cell turnover.
- [35:52]
Naima Raza
Okay, how is acid good for your face? This is like wild to me.
- [35:55]
Brooke Devard
I mean, it sounds so scary, right? Like lactic acid, glycolic acid.
- [36:00]
Naima Raza
I don't put anything that has acid on it, on my face, except for retinol because a doctor told me to do it.
- [36:05]
Brooke Devard
Chemicals are a part of life. Yeah, acid, I agree it's a scary name, but it just. It just means that it's kind of helping to take away dead skin.
- [36:15]
Naima Raza
Okay. Okay. Still scary.
- [36:18]
Brooke Devard
Yeah. Well, you know what? I love that you're so close with your dermatologist. One of the things that I always do and I always tell people to do, when you go to your dermatologist, bring the skincare you're using, like, show them, like, I'm using this at night, I'm using this in the morning. And they'll tell you, yeah, you can stop wasting your time with this. Doing this and this together is too much. Right. I think that even if you don't have good insurance, like, how much is like a well visit for like a dermatologist? Like a hundred something dollars.
- [36:41]
Naima Raza
Amanda Doyle, my dermatologist in New York, she's fantastic. And the first time I in to see her and I was using like, skince cuticles, C Ferelic and you know, three different, like a serum and some kind of like.
- [36:53]
Naeem Mahraza
Yeah.
- [36:53]
Naima Raza
Drunk elephant mask. And she's like, can you just put all of this away? Just use a sulfur face wash. Love that. And just use retinol a few times a week and azelaic acid a few times a week.
- [37:05]
Brooke Devard
Okay. Azelaic acid. Okay.
- [37:06]
Naima Raza
So those, that would help with dark spots is azelaic acid. And then retinol is for exfoliation and keeping it young.
- [37:11]
Brooke Devard
And you use a moisturizer, I'm assuming.
- [37:13]
Naima Raza
And then she was like, cerave moisturizer is fine.
- [37:15]
Brooke Devard
Dermatologist loves CeraVe. And for sunscreen, they love that too.
- [37:20]
Naima Raza
That's it. That was it. So she basically saved me a ton of money.
- [37:23]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, absolutely.
- [37:24]
Naima Raza
Thank you, Amanda Doyle. Okay. Is Botox really preventative?
- [37:28]
Brooke Devard
I think that that is total bs. I'm like, so against this, like, myth that you can, like, the earlier you start doing Botox, the less wrinkles you're gonna have. I mean, everything's an industry. Everything is run by capitalism. So it's like in your 20s, are you really going to start this, like, maintenance where you have to get. Get Botox every, what, three months? Every six months?
- [37:50]
Naima Raza
Like, that's just like too late for that.
- [37:51]
Brooke Devard
But it's just like a crazy thing, I think, to integrate into your routine, I think. But, and, and for me, it hasn't made sense yet. Yeah. But I do think that when I see like, wrinkles at rest. Like, when my face is like, we.
- [38:06]
Naima Raza
Both touched our face in that moment.
- [38:09]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Then I think I will explore it. I'm not against it, but I'm also. I just don't. Yeah. I don't buy into this. And the thinking is that once you paralyze the muscle, then you don't allow it to, like, crease and then create wrinkles.
- [38:28]
Naima Raza
Right. A lot of people now. I was just talking to a friend of mine, and she's like, no, I'm working on not moving my face. And so I FaceTimed her and was trying to tell her, like, crazy stories to see if she would move her face. But she was very good at holding her face.
- [38:41]
Brooke Devard
I think that's. I mean, props to your friend. Do your thing. I don't know. It just kind of makes me sad that people are, like, restricting their smiles and facial movements so that they don't have, like, laugh lines. Like, laugh lines are beautiful. I also just want my face to convey emotion. Like, I don't want to be frozen.
- [38:59]
Naima Raza
And also to like, to show a bit of your, like, wisdom and what you've lived. But in general, because I started off as a documentary filmmaker, I love seeing people that are expressive and even what we do.
- [39:10]
Naeem Mahraza
Right.
- [39:10]
Naima Raza
Hosting shows, you need to be expressive. That carries through in a voice that definitely carries through on a screen. And when someone tells you they're so excited, but their eyebrows are just, like, on level, you're like, are you really excited? Are you lying to me? And that is not a judgment on Botox at all. In fact, I've recently become really interested in the idea of Botox down here to, like, snatch your jawline because it, like. Yes. That is supposed to paralyze your.
- [39:35]
Brooke Devard
Yes. A lot of people are doing that.
- [39:36]
Naima Raza
But that scares me. It's like, they say a word like acid or paralyzed, and I'm like, I will not be doing this, Dr. Doyle.
- [39:42]
Brooke Devard
Right. Or the fact that both Botox is, like, called neurotoxin, Right?
- [39:45]
Naima Raza
Yeah. Also, I think if you can't do it when you're pregnant, it's kind of weird that we do it all the time. I'm like, it can't be good for our DNA. So generally in life, like, I don't really drink a lot. I don't do. So I'm generally like, if you tell me you can't do it when you're.
- [39:56]
Brooke Devard
Pregnant or breastfeeding, then you don't like to do it.
- [39:58]
Naima Raza
I'm a little bit afraid of what it means for my Cells.
- [40:01]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [40:01]
Naima Raza
Just because I haven't yet had a baby.
- [40:03]
Brooke Devard
Not drinking puts you so ahead of the game in terms of skin care. I mean, every single doctor, dermatologist, everyone will tell you that drinking is just black and white, categorically bad for us.
- [40:13]
Naima Raza
So how young is too young for Botox in your estimation?
- [40:16]
Brooke Devard
Oh, gosh. I mean, that's so. It's so personal, you know, it's like I'm. I'm 35 and I'm saying that, oh, I. I'm not gonna do it because I don't have wrinkles at rest. But there are 35 year olds that do have wrinkles at rest.
- [40:26]
Naima Raza
And like, so wrinkles at rest is.
- [40:28]
Brooke Devard
The test for me. Yeah, for me. Some people just do it because they, like, want that, like, super snatched. Like, they like the expressionless. Like, they like that aesthetically. And like, if that's you, then, then go for it. It's just not for me.
- [40:41]
Naima Raza
Yeah, that's the Gio Tolentino Klonopin Jack set to Coachella. Look. Okay, expensive products. Do they actually use better science, or am I just paying for a brand? A glass bottle and a Kardashians paycheck.
- [40:54]
Brooke Devard
You're definitely paying for a brand. The glass bottle. You're helping to pay the rent at their flagship store. Right. Like, all of that goes into paying a brand. That being said, a lot of luxury brands do proprietary research and have, like, proprietary ingredients. Like, if you're looking at like, La Mer or Shiseido, I think I love Shiseido skincare. I got to go to see where they make all of the skincare one. They'll be working on like a pat. Like an actual.
- [41:19]
Naima Raza
In Japan.
- [41:19]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, in Japan. It was like an influencer trip, but they basically brought us to see where the skincare is made. And like, these are real scientists that wake up every single day figuring out how do we, like, get this, like, emulsification down for the moisturizer? Like, how do we harvest this, like, green algae that grows in this pond that, like, Shiseido owns and, like, get it into our eye cream. When big, big companies have money for R and D. Right. So research and development.
- [41:46]
Naima Raza
Yeah, they're like pharmaceutical companies kind of.
- [41:48]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, they're. They're huge. So that is like, very real. Like R and D. Like, whenever you see something that's patented, like to get a patent or to have clinical results, meaning, like something that's been clinically tested, it's totally controlled, third party. Like, they're not doing the research, they're having Someone use the skin care and then after 21 days, 45 days, 90 days, whatever the claim is, they're actually, actually able to see visible results in the skin.
- [42:12]
Naima Raza
So that means something clinically tested, dermatologically tested or dermatologically approved?
- [42:17]
Brooke Devard
Dermatologist approved doesn't mean anything. Well, it just means you got a dermatologist to look at it and say like, okay, that's okay.
- [42:21]
Naima Raza
So clinically tested. Yes, is what you're looking for. And is that regulated by like the FDA or.
- [42:26]
Brooke Devard
It's. I don't know what the like governing body is, but it's, it's always has to be third party independent. But what a lot of skincare brands do is they'll say ingredients are clinically proven. So like they'll, you, they'll use vitamin C in something and they'll say clinically proven. But that's because vitamin C has been clinically proven, not necessarily their, their product. Product.
- [42:44]
Naima Raza
So how do we know you.
- [42:46]
Brooke Devard
You would really have to like, look into the fine print. And actually even on Sephora, a lot of websites, you can see like, there's a little asterisk next to clinically proven. And you can like go and like see what the clinical trial was to.
- [42:56]
Naima Raza
Be like an investigative journalist.
- [42:57]
Brooke Devard
Unfortunately, unfortunately, there is a great resource that Paula's Choice has. It's called the ingredient dictionary.
- [43:02]
Naima Raza
Okay.
- [43:03]
Brooke Devard
And you can basically go, it's like on the Paula's Choice website, if you just Google like Polish choice ingredient dictionary and you can look up basically like any skincare, it doesn't have to be Paula Choice. Put it in and it'll break down what the ingredients are. And if they're good for you, bad for you, you can like look up individual ingredients. So you can be like, oh, my skin really likes niacinamide. And then you can like learn what niacinamide does. So I'm always like, you kind of do have to be a little bit of an investigative journalist.
- [43:26]
Naima Raza
That's true. Everything seems like it's better if it's European. Like I buy my, I like to buy my sunscreen, except for the Ulta that's made here, I think. But sunscreen Europe or Asia or Asia, Japan and Korea. Better everything.
- [43:39]
Brooke Devard
Pretty much better everything Better everything.
- [43:41]
Naima Raza
How come they have better everything?
- [43:42]
Brooke Devard
I feel like they're really living in the future. And I feel like the thing that's so impressive about Korean skincare is that it's super effective and it doesn't have to be super expensive. I think that there's so much Innovation and research happening in Korea around skincare that basically like the jig is up. Like it doesn't have to be in $100 cream to drive results. So they've like really figured out whether it's like snail mucin or they've really figured out how to use these specific, specific ingredients to get that perfect glass skin that all the K pop stars have.
- [44:08]
Naima Raza
What is the best glass? I need a glass skin mask. I have not been able to find one. Will you recommend one?
- [44:13]
Brooke Devard
Ooh, I like the biologique Recherche Vivant mask. It smells terrible, but it makes your skin look really good.
- [44:19]
Naima Raza
I like the poreless. I do the hanicure. You know the one that makes you look like an 85 year old before you take it off.
- [44:24]
Brooke Devard
I kind of love it online.
- [44:25]
Naima Raza
Okay, what are the newest things that you are interested in? I've heard peptides and I've heard salmon sperm DNA. We need to now answer for the people who want salmon sperm DNA.
- [44:33]
Brooke Devard
I actually just got of course from Korea. The company's called Medicube. I just my first salmon sperm moisturizer. I haven't tried it yet, but apparently it's like very rich in different like Omega 3s, like the same way. Salmon's good for us to eat.
- [44:46]
Naima Raza
Do you think they get the sperm from the salmon?
- [44:48]
Brooke Devard
Oh, gosh, I do not know.
- [44:49]
Naima Raza
There's like an IVF salmon facility.
- [44:51]
Brooke Devard
I do not know.
- [44:52]
Naima Raza
So you put the salmon sperm on?
- [44:55]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, it's like in these like little capsules that are like in the moisturizer. I'll report back.
- [44:59]
Naima Raza
Okay, please do. Salmon sperm.
- [45:01]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Follow me to see when I do that review you.
- [45:05]
Naima Raza
On the subject of capitalism. It is amazing that like it's always like the people who need at least who get the freest. Like I can't over the course of time, like it's like as I've gotten more successful, I'm being sent more free stuff.
- [45:17]
Brooke Devard
Right. Well, and that's not on accident, right. Because essentially they're using you for marketing.
- [45:23]
Naima Raza
Yeah. So trickle down.
- [45:25]
Brooke Devard
Yes. So like I'm like so flattered. Like, oh, like La Mer sent me all of the skincare, but it's really that they want me to post it and share it with my followers. And I think, I think that also the nature of like advertising and targeting has changed so much that it's like really hard to know, like to reach like true skincare enthusiasts. Like, right. They know if people are following me at Brooke Devard or following me at Naked Beauty Planet, that they are interested in skincare, so it's a better shortcut for brands to send it to me so that I talk about it versus trying to target those people.
- [45:52]
Naima Raza
I want to ask you, like, two last questions. One is you are someone who's kind of come up and seen this whole world of beauty from every vantage point, which I think is fantastic. You're obviously extremely intelligent, like, very well educated, informed, investigative in how you approach this stuff. And now you're a mom.
- [46:08]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [46:08]
Naima Raza
Of a baby girl.
- [46:10]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [46:11]
Naima Raza
What's her name? How old is she?
- [46:12]
Brooke Devard
Her name is Jade, and she's four months old.
- [46:14]
Naima Raza
Okay. And you did this Instagram detox recently?
- [46:17]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Oh, my gosh, that was so good. I did it when I gave birth because I think a lot of times, times for moms that are listening to this, like, the. The midnight scroll, like, the breastfeeding doom scroll is, like, so real. And I had it with my first. Like, that's just when you're breastfeeding in the middle of the night from, like, 2:00am, 5:00am like, all you're gonna do is just, like, be on your phone. And I was like, I don't want that. I want to read a book or just maybe do nothing and just, like, be in silence and be present with myself. I realized how much clutter I had in my mind. Like, just all of these apps, it's like you're just being fed and served other people's opinions and buy this, and you should think this way, and if you're doing this, you're doing it wrong. And it's like, it's a lot.
- [46:58]
Naima Raza
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Brooke Devard
And so I just kind of, like, shut it all down, deleted all of my social apps, and just enjoyed easing into motherhood for those first six weeks.
- [47:06]
Naima Raza
But now you're back in the retox of Instagram.
- [47:08]
Brooke Devard
Yes, I'm back.
- [47:08]
Naima Raza
The retox. But how did that period, giving birth, putting on your skincare, putting away your Instagram, make you come back to naked beauty and your work in a different way?
- [47:19]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, I mean, I think, again, it was this, like, quieting of my mind, and I think it was also understanding. Like, you can get so disconnected from your own tastes and your own opinions because you're ingesting so many other people's opinions and tastes. And it was kind of just like remembering. Like, I know what I want to do. I know the kind of content that I want to see. I don't need any, like, proxy or, like, I don't need to see what someone else did to save it as like, inspiration for me to do my own thing. Like, I kind of know what I want to do. And when it came to Naked Beauty, I really, really. In that time that I didn't have social media, podcasts really were my lifeline. There's just this intimacy to podcasts that I really felt in the absence of everything else.
- [48:00]
Naima Raza
I love that. And now Naked Beauty, you know, it's a podcast, a huge enterprise. You've left your work to pursue this full time. You're now more than a year into.
- [48:08]
Brooke Devard
Yes, more than a year. And I launched a fragrance.
- [48:10]
Naima Raza
You have a fragrance?
- [48:11]
Brooke Devard
The Naked Beauty fragrance, which is Bergam neroli, orange blossom, green tea, sandalwood. I loved the experience of making a fragrance. It's like this very fresh citrus, but also has, like, woody vibes. It was inspired actually by moving to la. I was having a matcha in our outdoor area, sitting under an orange blossom tree, and I was like, I want to bottle this feeling of, like, calmness.
- [48:33]
Naeem Mahraza
You know, that was such an LA vibe.
- [48:35]
Brooke Devard
But I was like, this is my new life.
- [48:36]
Naima Raza
A New York girly who.
- [48:38]
Brooke Devard
I'm a New York girl.
- [48:39]
Naima Raza
It's very. It's very light, very fresh. And I always wonder because, like, you know, I was just interviewing Kenji Lopez all. And this idea that food tastes different to everybody based on your experience. I'm like, I smelled it. And I was like, I wonder if it smells to me like it smells to Brooke, or we'll never know or it definitely won't smell the same on us.
- [48:55]
Brooke Devard
Yes, yes. I have ISO E super in it, which is a. Basically, it's like a synthetic fragrance compound that smells different on everyone, depending on their body chemistry for people to enjoy.
- [49:05]
Naima Raza
Naked Beauty, the Fragrance by Brooke D'Avar. Okay. All the things you were so clever about, so wise about. What are you dumb about? This is my last question for every guest.
- [49:13]
Brooke Devard
Ooh, what am I dumb about?
- [49:15]
Naima Raza
What's a dumb question you have that we could go and help answer?
- [49:19]
Brooke Devard
Ooh, I'd say a lot of, like, architecture and, like, home type things. Like, my husband is so in. We've. You know, we moved to la. We did this whole renovation, and sometimes I'll, like, ask him things, and he's like, that's like, not how.
- [49:35]
Naima Raza
Like, what. What do you. What if you ask?
- [49:37]
Brooke Devard
I don't know, I'd be like, oh, can we, like, you know, build a balcony off of. And he's like, no, because you need to have the structure to support. Like, he understands it all, and I don't. So I. I Feel like I find myself asking less and less about it because I'm like, I just don't even know.
- [49:51]
Naima Raza
Like, I will find out. We'll get Neil Degrasse Tyson asked a question about construction.
- [49:55]
Brooke Devard
Okay.
- [49:55]
Naima Raza
So I went and asked a construction worker, Brandon Hernandez, who I found like on the streets in New York. And we'll answer this astrophysicist question and like it had tons of physics in the answer. So I'm gonna find out because.
- [50:04]
Brooke Devard
Yeah.
- [50:04]
Naima Raza
Why can you. Sometimes it's like, sometimes you can take out a wall, sometimes you can't.
- [50:08]
Brooke Devard
Exactly.
- [50:08]
Naima Raza
How do they know?
- [50:09]
Brooke Devard
Exactly, exactly. I'm like, oh, can we do a skylight here? And it's like, no, because the roof. And I'm like, I don't get it.
- [50:14]
Naima Raza
You know what, Brooke? This is a safe space for your. We will notice your eyelashes and we will help you answer what you can build in your balconies. Thank you so much for doing this.
- [50:22]
Brooke Devard
This was so fun.
- [50:32]
Naeem Mahraza
So is it self care or is it capitalism? I want to know what you think and you can tell me in the comments or reviews below. I for one was left with the impression that it is largely capitalism. Especially as Brooke was describing that pendulum shift between skinny jeans and wide jeans and skinny brows and big brows, all to sell us not just price products, but this sense of insecurity that we're somehow behind or need to catch up or keep up. Sometimes I think the only way out of this cycle is just full on Marxism. Like if we were to all unionize and decide that we're not going to do any of it so we can get back to some real natural, universal standard of what beauty should be. But of course that's totally Pollyannish. We are never going to get that collective bargaining agreement. And even if we did, there would definitely be cheaters on the margin and.
- [51:17]
Naima Raza
I can't say that I would not.
- [51:18]
Naeem Mahraza
Be wanting of them. But it is wild that we live in a world where 12 year old girls are putting retinol onto their faces or 21 year olds are playing around with botox. But of course the world we live in matters a lot. If you think about in Greek mythology, that narcissist would go visit the river to see his own reflection. Imagine what that man would do with a mirror or a selfie stick or a TikTok filter. And then imagine that we all live with this river all around us all of the time, presenting us with our own reflection. All of that makes me want to do the social media detox. Brooke Devar just did and makes me grateful for the tips she just gave us. Like, we do not necessarily need eye cream or ingestible collagen or fancy oils or toner, which it sounded like was kind of just like water or Botox. Unless you have wrinkles at rest. And even if you have wrinkles at rest, I think you can rest with those wrinkles. Now. None of this is to shame anyone who wants to splurge on any of this. I definitely splurge on lymphatic massages and hair care and other stuff. And everything I've learned from my dermatologist, Amanda Doyle, is that less is more when it comes to beauty. Anyways, if you want more of Brooke Devard, and I certainly do, you should check out her podcast Naked Beauty, wherever you get your shows and you can find her on Instagram. Brooke Devard that's it for this week of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll be back Friday with a fresh episode. Today's show was produced with Claire Lichtenstein, Diana DaCosta Healy Cruz, with additional editorial from Dana Boulou and Holly Thiel. A very special thanks to my dermatologist, Amanda Doyle, who has saved me so much money, and to Brooke Devard, who saved me money too.
- [52:46]
Naima Raza
Now our theme music is by David.
- [52:48]
Naeem Mahraza
Khan and I'm your host, Naima Raza. If you like the show, please hit, follow or subscribe. And please tell 10 friends about it. That is how these things grow. If you have comments, reviews, suggestions or dumb questions, send me an email naimaraza101mail.com or leave them in the comments or reviews below. I'll see you next week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.