More Mark Cuban: Can Billionaires (Still) Save Us?

Summary

Smart Girl Dumb Questions — Episode Summary

Episode: More Mark Cuban: Can Billionaires (Still) Save Us?
Host: Nayeema Raza
Guest: Mark Cuban
Date: December 23, 2025

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This extended interview episode revisits Nayeema Raza’s original conversation with billionaire entrepreneur Mark Cuban—best known for his rags-to-riches trajectory, ownership of the Dallas Mavericks, and recent efforts to “unfuck” the U.S. healthcare system. Raza probes the question: “Can billionaires save us?” in an age where their influence is growing alongside advances in AI, but also where there are rising critiques of extreme wealth and lack of systemic reforms.

The duo discuss the intersection of wealth, capitalism, and social good, with a focus on health care reform and the possibility of large-scale change from both markets and government. The conversation is candid, witty, and pragmatic in tone, challenging simplistic narratives about money, power, and philanthropy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Mark Cuban’s Rise: Broke to Billionaire

• Cuban details his early business journey, describing sleeping on floors, getting fired multiple times, and starting his first company out of necessity.
  • Quote: "The poorer you are, the better time it is to start a business… When you’re broke, you got nothing to lose.” (03:02)
• He recounts selling his first business for $6M, personally netting $2M—making his dad cry with pride—and acquiring his “ultimate tech bro” status after selling his next company for over $1B.
  • Quote: "I was the ultimate tech bro. Way before tech bros were tech bros.” (07:15)
• With each financial milestone, his perspective changed—from tunnel vision and spending motivation to focusing on impact and philanthropy.

Timestamps

• [02:52] – First big sale, origins
• [03:17] – Power (and necessity) of starting with nothing
• [04:23] – “Seven years, no vacation—then a $30M exit”
• [06:43] – How a $1M windfall shifted his lifestyle (acting classes, parties, meeting girls)
• [09:39] – Buying the Mavericks: “The fans own the team, not me”

---

Wealth & Generosity: Did Money Change Him?

• Cuban admits growing more generous with greater wealth: initially because he could, later because he saw the impact on other people (fans, employees, community).
  • Quote: “Once I got past that and bought the Mavs…that became more fun than just trying to make more money. That became more personally impactful to me.” (09:39)
• He emphasizes the value of time and freedom over possessions:
  • Quote: "Money buys…time. That’s what having a plane buys more than anything. I want all my time.” (36:23)
• Cautions against wealth as both motivator and trap, noting that for some, “it becomes handcuffs.”

---

Disrupting Healthcare: CostPlus Drugs & Market Failures

• Cuban’s current “mission” is to dismantle (or as he quips, “reverse f*** up”) the broken healthcare and prescription drug system via costplusdrugs.com—a radically transparent, low-markup pharmacy initiative.
  • Quote: “Well, it needs to be reverse fucked.” (12:37)
  • Quote: "The markups were insane...imatinib is $2,000 at CVS, $21 from us." (16:53)
• Explains that most health insurance is opaque, with hospitals and patients equally disempowered by administration, deductibles, and pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs).
• Details how self-insured employers can mimic what he's doing: bypassing insurance, negotiating directly with hospitals, publishing contracts, and saving 20-40% on costs.
  • Quote: "You cut out the middlemen...20 to 40%, depending on the week.” (22:58)

Timestamps

• [12:35] – Why the system needs to be “reverse f***ed up”
• [15:27] – Self-paying for care is often cheaper
• [16:25] – The Cost Plus Drugs model: radical price transparency

---

Can Capitalism Fix What It Broke?

• Raza presses: If capitalism broke healthcare, can capitalism fix it? Cuban says yes, but only with real transparency and efficient, fair market mechanisms.
  • Quote: “You can be compassionate and be a capitalist. They’re not mutually exclusive.” (18:14)
  • Cuban points out the “easiest industry to disrupt” is healthcare, given its inefficiencies and lack of transparency.
• Argues that single payer (“Bernie Sanders style”) only works if government has negotiating power—currently undermined by data opacity and middlemen.

---

The Limits (and Promise) of Billionaire Philanthropy

• Cuban is open about needing vast private capital, free from profit-maximizing investors, to tackle entrenched interests (i.e., why billionaire resources and “billboard” status help).
  • Quote: “Could you have changed it if you weren't a billionaire?” “It would be a lot harder…I didn’t use outside money, because I didn’t want to be obligated…” (23:19)
• Stresses that while billionaires can do good, true systemic change needs structural incentives.
  • Quote: “Doesn't mean billionaires can't do good things.” (46:21)
  • Finds more joy in disrupting entrenched systems than simply making money: “I get immense joy from fucking up the healthcare system." (46:39)

---

Systemic Change: Transparency, Parity, and the NBA Analogy

• Host raises the NBA's salary caps, parity rules, and collective bargaining as examples of imposing checks and fairness, even among billionaires.
  • Quote (Raza): “The NBA has managed to create this system…where you have fairness, real heart and passion...and the billionaires own the teams, but not the system.” (39:54)
• Cuban agrees the NBA’s design is a "socialist" system at its core, protecting owners (and competitive balance), but it’s inherently exclusionary.
  • Quote: "It's more to protect the owners…to create equilibrium between different size markets." (39:27)

Timestamps

• [38:01] – NBA as socialism/model for system design
• [41:11] – "It's the people who make this country go…not just the billionaires." (Cuban on entrepreneurship in America)
• [44:32] – On public higher education access as a fairness lever

---

Capitalism, Incentives, and Political Dysfunction

• Cuban critiques regulatory capture, campaign finance laws, and the perverse role of money in politics.
  • Suggests scrapping Citizens United, cutting middlemen in politics as in healthcare.
• Advocates focusing not on abstract ideologies, but real-world processes and solutions.

Timestamps

• [47:17] – On campaign money and misplaced focus
• [68:55] – "You don't talk about names, you talk about solutions."

---

Money, Luck, and the American Dream

• Cuban deconstructs meritocracy, citing luck as a significant factor for extraordinary wealth.
  • Quote: “Life is half random…You can control half, and half is out of your control.” (35:32)
• Expresses empathy for those born without advantages, and supports the idea of universal basic income (UBI) for caregivers.

Timestamps

• [34:44] – “How much money is too much?”
• [46:03] – On supporting UBI for caregivers

---

Culture, Identity, and Billionaire “Billboard” Status

• Reflects on how fame, wealth, and social platforms create outsized influence (“the bigger the billboard, the more power, the more intoxicating…”).
• Shares lighter moments: guest role in The Simpsons and Sharknado, acting with Mark Wahlberg, and being fined by the NBA for his personality (“I told the head of officials they couldn’t run a Dairy Queen” [49:02]).

Timestamps

• [59:01] – Simpsons cameo
• [60:06] – Sharknado story
• [49:02] – Dairy Queen anecdote

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On becoming a billionaire: “You gotta take that first step… The poorer you are, the better time it is to start a business.” (03:17)
• On wealth and meaning: “Money buys time. To me, that’s what money buys more than anything.” (36:23)
• On healthcare’s brokenness: “It needs to be reverse fucked.” (12:37)
• On disrupting pharma pricing: “Imatinib is $2,000 at CVS, $21 from us.” (16:53)
• On billionaires doing good: “Doesn't mean billionaires can't do good things.” (46:21)
• On joy and impact: “I get immense joy from fucking up the healthcare system.” (46:39)
• On capitalism: “You can be compassionate and be a capitalist. They’re not mutually exclusive.” (18:14)
• On luck and empathy: “Life is half random…You can control half, and half is out of your control.” (35:32)
• On politics: "You don’t talk about names, you talk about solutions." (68:48)
• On pet peeves: “Why do people chew with their mouths open?" (72:43)
• On the power of sports: “Where else can you go and just scream at the top of your lungs… hug and high five somebody… We need more of that shit.” (65:05)

---

Important Timestamps for Segments

• [03:02]–[04:23]: Mark's start: from broke to business owner and first millions
• [09:39]: What changed with the Mavericks and community giving
• [12:35]–[17:56]: Healthcare system: how it’s broken and how Mark wants to “reverse fuck it up”
• [22:56]: Cutting out insurance industry middlemen, achieving 20-40% cost savings
• [38:01]–[41:11]: The NBA as a model for fairness and system checks
• [47:17]: Billionaires, campaign spending, and political dysfunction
• [59:01]: Simpsons appearance
• [60:06]: Sharknado and being a “billboard billionaire”
• [72:43]: Dumb questions: “Why do people chew with their mouths open?” “Why are some people afraid of heights?"

---

Tone & Language

Both Raza and Cuban balance sharp, irreverent humor with candor and accessible explanations. Raza isn’t shy about pushing Cuban on uncomfortable systemic questions, while Cuban is self-deprecating yet practical about his power, privilege, and motivations. Cuban uses punchy, sometimes profane language to cut through jargon and “bullshit” (his words) in finance, healthcare, and government.

---

Key Takeaways

• Mark Cuban’s vision for reform—particularly in healthcare—relies on capitalist market mechanisms, if made radically transparent and efficient.
• True large-scale systemic disruption often requires a combination of capital, fame (“billboard”), risk-tolerance, and a willingness to subvert “max-profit” incentives.
• The American system (both business and government) could gain from NBA-style fairness checks, but meaningful change will be tied to process, not just personalities or billionaire largesse.
• Cuban’s stories and experiments are as much about joy, curiosity, and fighting bad systems as about altruism—he insists meaning and “selfish” satisfaction are intertwined in his version of good capitalism.
• While billionaires are neither villains nor saviors by default, real progress depends on broader structures, better incentives, and a cultural willingness to challenge ingrained inefficiencies at every level.

---

Final Thought

Mark Cuban closes the episode as a “billboard billionaire”—self-aware, pragmatic, and still asking dumb questions ("Why do people chew with their mouths open?"). He urges listeners (and society) to value process, transparency, and empathy—while never underestimating the role of chance, curiosity, and the joy of shaking things up.

---

For further questions or episode three with AI Pioneer Geoffrey Hinton, contact the show at 1-855-MYDUMBQ or on social media @smartgirldumbquestions.

Transcript

[A]

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sipping season and only for a limited time.

[B]

Sprite obey your thirst. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[A]

Listening to this podcast Smart move being.

[B]

Financially savv Smart move.

[A]

Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling.

[B]

Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor.

[A]

State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. You have, I think, really like big first guest energy. I do, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you have big curiosity, which is what this show is all about. I feel everybody's so sure, Mark. All around me.

[B]

So sure.

[A]

Yeah. I'm surrounded by sure people. I'm surrounded. And I feel like, am I a moron? Because like, I'm not sure what the answer is.

[B]

A lot of times that's probably true.

[A]

But I'm a moron. I have to change the name of the show, right? Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naeem Raza. This is Smart Girl Dumb Questions. And today I'm playing you an extended cut of my very first episode with billionaire entrepreneur Mark Cuban. And I'm doing this for two reasons. First, we've had a lot of new followers and viewers on the show, which is awesome, thanks to being named a Spotify wrapped Best new show of 2025. And really thanks to all of you who have listened and tuned into the show. So I wanted to give you something that you haven't heard and also give an introduction to everyone who's joining us for the very first time on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. And two, I think that the conversation I have with Mark, which really gets this idea of what role billionaires play in our society, is a good interregnum to this Godfather of AI trilogy we've been doing with Geoffrey Hinton, who's this Nobel Prize winning Godfather of AI. And episode three of this trilogy really looks at what kind of society we should build. Do we need things like Universal Basic Income? What does it mean that billionaires like Sam Altman, Mark Zuckerberg, et cetera, will have an outsized impact in this new world of artificial intelligence? What could that look like? Could billionaires save us? These are all topics I Talked to Mark about. And by the way, as you listen to it, I want to know your Questions for episode three with Geoffrey Hinton. So you can call us at 1-855-MYDUMBQ, leave us a voicemail. It could be played on the show or post a video and tag martgirldumbquestions on Instagram, TikTok or YouTube and maybe you'll be in the show. That's it from me. We'll see you in 2026 with more. Smart girl, dumb questions, and yes, with more of the Godfather. Okay, so here's a dumb question. How does your life change from like, from the first check you got? How much was that when you sold your first Microsoft?

[B]

We made $6 million. Came in 2 million. I paid a bunch million to employees, 2 million to another investor, and 2 million to me.

[A]

2 million to you. And you, I mean, you didn't grow up rich.

[B]

No, no, no. My dad did upholstery on cars. I think where people screw up is they think because they don't have money, it's the bad time to start a business. Yeah, when you're broke, like Daymond John and Shark Tank calls it the power of broke. When you're broke, you got nothing to lose.

[A]

But.

[B]

Right, the poorer you are, the better time it is to start a business. My first real business, like, I got fired, okay, I was living in the Village up the street, six guys in a three bedroom apartment, and I was sleeping on the floor and had been for like nine months. And it was like, well, shit, I'm a lousy employee. That's not the first time I've been fired. And, you know, I don't want to just get in the grind again, so I might as well go for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, I just started knocking on doors, you know, figuratively, and found somebody that I could do the technology for this company not far from here. Architectural, lighting. And I'm like, look, I'm broke. I know that from our conversations. You need this software. If you put up the 500 bucks, it's all was 500 bucks to buy the software. I'll make it work. If it doesn't work, I'll wash your car, feed your pets, whatever it is. And that led to, hey, this is working for us. Can you refer me to somebody else? To somebody else. And then seven years later, with no vacation. I didn't say I didn't have fun, but no vacation. It was just like all of a sudden I had a 30 plus million dollar business that I sold.

[A]

So the secret to getting rich. Is getting poor starting not being afraid when you're born.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But having nothing to lose.

[B]

You gotta take that first step. Your podcast. You gotta take that first step.

[A]

Okay, so I wanna know, how does your life change when you get your first million, your first hundred million and your first billion?

[B]

That's actually a really good question. Because, you know, I was putting money in the bank, and I remember one time I sat with my dad and I told him I had $100,000 in the bank and he started crying.

[A]

He was so proud.

[B]

Yeah. And then when we sold and I got up past a million after taxes and everything, oh, I was just thinking, I'm just a badass. Right. I would go into clubs around Dallas thinking, I'm richer than you. I'm richer than you. Right. Just being an idiot. You know, Just.

[A]

Do you still think that? Because you're going to think that like.

[B]

No.

[A]

You're going to have no time for other thoughts if you.

[B]

No, it's just like, you know.

[A]

But you had that in your head.

[B]

Yeah, it was just like. Because it was like, this is an accomplishment, you know? Like I said, seven years without a vacation. That was a lot. And so I was like, okay, now I'm gonna have fun. I bought a lifetime pass on American Airlines.

[A]

Like, a lifetime. And you still have that?

[B]

I gave it to my dad. My dad passed and I gave it to a friend.

[A]

I'm sorry about your dad.

[B]

Yeah, it's been a few. But literally, it was a lifetime pass in American Airlines and it cost me $125,000. And me and anybody I wanted to take could fly anywhere. American flew for the rest of my life.

[A]

First class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What? Flagship first.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know what they call it.

[A]

You don't even know. You haven't been at a commercial play for.

[B]

It's been a year. I started investing in stocks. I was killing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, just destroying it. So my net worth kept on going up and so I moved to la, took acting classes just to meet girls. Lived on Manhattan beach with, like, two flight attendants.

[A]

You lived in Manhattan beach with two flight attendants?

[B]

Yes, I did.

[A]

Which one did you choose to fly with on your class? I guess the other one flies free anyway.

[B]

Well, yeah, they flew. Yeah. You could probably bring a third girl for Delta.

[A]

You could bring a third girl on the plane because they fly for free. Flight attendants.

[B]

I like the way you think.

[A]

Yeah. I'm just trying to maximize life here, Mark. Okay.

[B]

So living in la, Manhattan, took acting classes. Nothing really came of It. But it was fun. And then I came back to Dallas for a girl and I was doing well. We ended up breaking up. But that was right when I had lunch with Todd Wagner and we started working on Audionet, which turned into streaming.

[A]

So 1 million you start.

[B]

I'm just having fun, having fun, just partying. And then I was under 100 million and then we sold Broadcast.com and that's when I got to the billion and that's when I bought the Mavs.

[A]

So you never experienced 100 million?

[B]

Never really?

[A]

You just made the leap?

[B]

Yeah. Hopefully you buy a sports team 100 million again. Right.

[A]

So first hundred thousand, you make your dad cry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

First million you have fun and think about how much richer you are than everyone else.

[B]

I was 20 years old and it was like I was the ultimate tech bro. Way before tech bros were tech bros.

[A]

And then the billion, you buy a sports team and then like at 5 billion, you sell part of it for like more billions or more billions than you bought it for. Okay, we're gonna get to all that. And then do you think it made you more generous as you got richer?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Simply because I got to see other people more than myself.

[A]

Say more. What do you mean by that?

[B]

Because, you know, when I'm building a company, it's just tunnel vision. It's not so much that you want. It wasn't like there was a goal to, you know, have this, this and this. Cause it wasn't about stuff. But I was just into the business, trying to make it work. Cause and, you know, the fact that it was a streaming industry, and I had no doubt in my mind that it was going to change everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I remember sitting in front of a meeting in our first office and we had maybe 20 people, and I remember telling the first 20 some employees and we all took a picture. Either this is going to fail miserably or this is going to be worth more than $5 billion. And we're going to change, change the world. We're going to change how people communicate. We're going to change how people consume content. When that's going on, it's exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that's the mission. And once I got past that and bought the Mavs, then like with the Mavs, I own the team, but the fans really owned the team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I was in control of decisions and finances, but just the impact that it would have on people just shocked me. You know, sports is not like any other industry. Nobody is going to anybody at Google or OpenAI or wherever, saying, hey, you know, can I get a Google T shirt to bury my son who was a huge fan, you know, and died of cancer. But that happens every day in sports. Just seeing that, and just seeing how kids in particular, how their eyes lit up when they'd come to a game and have fun, and how no matter how screwed up your life may be, if you come to a Mavs game, in this case, that ball's in the air and the game is tied. Everybody's screaming and yelling. Everybody holds their collective breath. And that only happens with sports. And just being able to see the impact and then going out into the community and just seeing. And so back to your question. That became more fun than just trying to make more money. That became more personally impactful to me.

[A]

Seeing the impact you had.

[B]

Yeah, it was cool. Yeah. And then when the Mavs won a championship, I mean, how many other businesses do they throw a parade?

[A]

So cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were in your 40s at this point when you bought the Mavs?

[B]

When I bought the team, I was 41, I think.

[A]

Yeah. It's pretty fucking cool to own a sports team.

[B]

Two years ago.

[A]

That's pretty awesome. So the hustle comes from having nothing to lose. Now you have, like, I guess, nothing to lose because you kind of have a lot. Did you ever think that you would still be working at this point?

[B]

I bought a book, actually. It was called how to Retire by the age of 35.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And the whole idea was that you save up enough money and live like a student, which was cool, right? I was going to. So after I sold my ramen noodles. Yeah. And that was. Yeah. Yeah. Basically it. Right. And I don't. Because obviously, you see the way I dress. I drive a Kia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I do have a plane.

[A]

I drive a Kia. I do have a plane.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I don't want. All of a sudden, people say, well, you got a plane, so don't. You know, I wanted to retire and just party like a madman. But that was so retiring then, because to me, like, the mission, you know, trying to make money was more about trying to capture as much of my own time as I could, because, like, my dad used to say, you know, you can't. You know, you. You don't own your own time. You can't get it back. And. And so that's all I wanted to do, was being able to do what I wanted. But now it's just like, I only do what I like, you know? And so it's not. I If I don't like it, it's not really work.

[A]

How many times have you been fired?

[B]

Four.

[A]

Okay. I feel like I have like two or three. Jason Kyler told me I was insubordinate and not meant to be an employee, probably meant to be a creative.

[B]

So the company I got fired from, before I started my business, I was sleeping on the floor and everything. And I had a customer where I was going to make a fifteen hundred dollar commission, which was going to give me the chance to move out of the shithole I lived in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And get off the floor and. But my boss, because one of my responsibilities, it was a retail store, was to open up the store. I made the executive insubordinate decision to go pick up the check, even though my boss said, no, don't do it. I need you here in the store. So I made that executive decision.

[A]

And you got that $1,500.

[B]

No, I got fired. I picked up the check, brought it to me. He fired me. Maybe because I fired me.

[A]

Fired you. And you moved in with him.

[B]

And the best part though, I literally, three weeks ago, got a letter from him.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Michael Yumeki sent me a letter. He's living in Colorado. And he said, all he said was, I'm sorry I fired you.

[A]

I'm like, imagine that's all it said. Did you write back?

[B]

No, I didn't write him back.

[A]

Are you still. You're holding a grudge?

[B]

No, I didn't care, but it wasn't worth the time. It was just comical.

[A]

Michael Hubecki, if you're listening to this.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

That's funny as hell.

[A]

So you know, you're not a billionaire who's moved to a private island. Like, you've not cut yourself off. Instead, you have found a new mission to fuck up healthcare. Yeah, fuck up healthcare. But Mark, healthcare is already so fucked up.

[B]

Well, it needs to be reverse fucked.

[A]

Oh, you're gonna reverse. I don't think I know that position, but yes. Okay, Got it. So you're gonna un. Fuck it up. Fuck it up.

[B]

Un Fuck it up.

[A]

Yeah, reverse fuck it up.

[B]

The way it is right now needs to be fucked up.

[A]

Which is exciting because every interview you go to, people ask you if you're gonna be president. Are you gonna be president? You wanna run for president?

[B]

I wanna run for president.

[A]

Got it out of the way. But I feel like if you can un. Fuck up healthcare, reverse fuck healthcare, you can be king.

[B]

Nobody likes healthcare the way it is right now. Everybody appreciates Their doctor, everybody appreciates the care that they can get, but in particular the economics of it are just a mess.

[A]

It's insane. My parents were older when I was born, so my dad was in his 50s, my mom was in her 40s. And so I spent a lot of my time in the healthcare system and like, with that, you know, for them. Really?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Advocating for them. Yeah. And fighting with insurers. Like, my mom just had a shoulder surgery and she was supposed to go to acute rehab and the insurance, her private insurance, denied the, you know, kind of shoulder surgery. Plates and screws. It's terrible. Like, I had an ACL surgery this year, but I was crying. My mom had this like much harder surgery and she was totally tough. Cause she's had a kid, so she's like. She was like, if you have a kid, then you'll know the pain really is. Yeah, exactly. My mom uses every opportunity to like manipulate me to have a child. I'm like, okay, thanks mom. But so. But you're gonna reverse. Fuck healthcare. So, healthcare. So I was just at the doctor the other day and I was thinking, this is wild because I kind of know what I'm paying for this. I kind of know through my copay, my deductible, my max. And the doctor has no idea if she's gonna get paid for this or what she's gonna get paid for this. And I thought like, if as a shark tank, you know, put your shark tank hat on, I know you're retired from that, but like, you would not wanna be in her, in the doctor's business.

[B]

I mean, I'd rather the doctors at least are going to get paid unless they just take a walk in, in. But, but I mean, think about this. You have a deductible. If you don't pay your deductible, who loses?

[A]

The insurer? The doctor. The doctor.

[B]

The hospital or the doctor. Right, the provider.

[A]

Oh, because they will say, oh, it's billed this much. And then they become like a debt collector. Basically.

[B]

Basically. And that's part of the fucked up edness of the healthcare system. Because the plan from your former employer set up the deductible. Right. But if something happens and you can't pay your deductible if it's a hospital, the hospital takes that risk and they're the ones that are screwed.

[A]

Not the insurer, not the insurance company.

[B]

They love high deductible plans because it's not their risk at all. And then on the flip side, the insurance companies that are supposed to pay the hospitals. Right. They do contracts. You would think an insurance company can negotiate a fee to pay the hospital that would be less because of their scale than just you or I walking into the hospital to get a broken arm set or get an AC for your next surgery if you don't have insurance.

[A]

I hope not to have one, but yeah, yeah.

[B]

Next time you wipe out skiing.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

It's cheaper if you just walk in and ask cash pay first.

[A]

Do you have health insurance?

[B]

I do, but I'm creating ourselves. It's a completely different program. It's not through an insurance company, but.

[A]

You have insurance because you're an employee of Mark Cuban companies.

[B]

Right. But starting January 1st, we created our own program.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Basically what I said was it's cheaper for me. Like if one of my kids, my daughter, broke her hand and to take her to the emergency room. I didn't tell them my insurance company. I just said I want the cash price and it was less than my deductible.

[A]

Did you know what the insurance price was gonna be?

[B]

No, because I already knew that this was gonna be cheaper.

[A]

Cause it's just cheaper. It's always cheaper to self pay. So I know some rich people who don't have health insurance for this reason. Yeah, but that's a very high risk.

[B]

Very few people. Right?

[A]

Very few people. Very few people. Okay, so let's back up. So the way that you have chosen to unfuck or reverse.

[B]

Starting spot.

[A]

Start the starting spot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. Costplusdrugs.com so the idea is basically you don't know.

[B]

You know, when you get a prescription from your doctor, they say, here's your prescription, you need what? Yada yada, yada. And the next question they ask you isn't, can you afford it? This is what it's going to cost. It's what pharmacy do you use? That's it. And then if you go to the pharmacy, you may or may not know what your deductible is or your co pay or your coinsurance. And for a lot of people, they go and realize they can't afford it. And when you look at the actual cost of the drugs, before we got into the business, the markups were insane. Just insane.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Like thousands of percent.

[A]

Thousands.

[B]

Like there's a drug called imatinib.

[A]

Imatinib.

[B]

Matinib is for people with chronic migraine, whatever. CML. If you just walked into a CVS as an example, you know, we started three years ago, it'd probably be about $2,000 for self pay for self pay $2,000. Okay, buy from us. Now. Our price is probably $21.

[A]

And at CVS right now, how much.

[B]

Is it right now is probably $300.

[A]

Are you guys driving down the prices?

[B]

Oh, yeah, for sure. We've served millions of people, and it's like, let's check cost plus drugs first. So what we do is you go to costplusdrugs.com and we don't carry every drug. We carry about 2,500. And you put in the name of the medication imatinib. And what comes up first is our actual cost. And then we mark it up 15%, because I wanted everybody to see that this is a fair markup. This is how we pay our bills. Right. It's not exorbitant, but whatever that price comes out to.

[A]

But this is not a nonprofit. The 15%.

[B]

No, we're trying to make money. Yeah. Because I want to keep on growing.

[A]

You are, to me, like the uber capitalist. You know, you made billions of dollars. Your rags to riches story, which America loves. You proselytize this on Shark Tank. You know, everybody can do this. So you are, to me, just like such a capitalist, but you're also a good guy.

[B]

You could be compassionate and be a capitalist. They're not mutually exclusive.

[A]

Yeah, but the definition of capitalism is like, two things, right? Like private actors own the means of production, and you're driven by profit motive. This is driven by profit motive, but not to the max.

[B]

Yeah, well, exactly. Right. You know, you can make more money by accomplishing more and helping people more. That's why people buy from you. You know, if you're fair and you're honest and you make it affordable, you have a whole lot more customers, and.

[A]

You think that's the way to unfuck the system. Because a lot of people like Bernie Sanders would say, go to a single payer system, but let's talk about that.

[B]

Right? So the question isn't single payer or not. The question is, how do you get there and what are the potential downsides? If the government comes walking in to your doctor and Bernie Sanders says, this is all we're paying you, that doctor might say, yeah, no, I'm not gonna get involved. If they go to a hospital and say the same thing, they might say, okay, I'll negotiate with you. And the reason it's not a fair negotiation and it benefits the hospitals, the providers is because there's no transparency. And it's not even transparency in terms of pricing, but more transparency and costs. Like, I've talked to Hospital after hospital after hospital, including, you know, just the other day. And I said, do you know what your costs are for any particular procedure? Seizure?

[A]

The hospital doesn't know what it's costing.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

How does a hospital not know?

[B]

They know what their total costs are and what the revenues have to get to. And that's part of the problem. If you believe like I do that healthcare is a right, then the question isn't should we have single payer? The question is how do we get there in a way that works for all the, all the interested parties, the patient, the providers and the payers. Right. The government.

[A]

And so it has to be a market based system.

[B]

It has to be an efficient market based system. Right now healthcare is a market based system, but there's no efficiency and there's no transparency.

[A]

It's completely opaque and it's like all these middlemen. It's like cost plus. The way you guys are doing is you're cutting out these pharmacy benefit managers.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So explain what a PBM is without boring people.

[B]

Yeah. Pharmacy benefit manager is they work with insurance companies or either own or are owned by insurance companies and they go to manufacturers, the pharmaceutical manufacturers and negotiate pricing. And back in the day they used to just pass through whatever benefits they got. Now they don't just pass through all the costs. And in addition, in addition to that they create all these other incremental fees that they charge to everybody. So that just distorts everything. But more importantly, they're not the least bit transparent.

[A]

They take kickbacks. Basically they're like rebates.

[B]

Whatever it is, they're always going to find a way to get paid and you don't know what those numbers are. So what we're saying is let's be completely transparent.

[A]

So if capitalism broke health care, can capitalism fix health care?

[B]

Yeah. And that's a great question, right? And the answer is yes. It's not all that hard. This has been the easiest industry to disrupt I've ever been involved with. Really, it's not even close. Now going back to my company, I said this system's fucked up. Right? There's no purpose for me to use a pharmacy benefit manager. You know, if just to process our claims, I'll use something called a tpa.

[A]

This is you as an employer, me.

[B]

As an employer for hundreds of whatever people and their families. So you've got a thing called a TPA that processes the claims. Okay, we just hired a tpa. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I self insured, so I didn't need an insurance company, I needed A reinsurance company.

[A]

Explain what self insured is.

[B]

Just like you said, rich people that don't buy health insurance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rather a self insured company, rather than working with an insurance company to take on the financial risk if, you know, if your total cost for care gets too high, takes on that risk themselves.

[A]

So like. So like a big company, like Hasbro or something?

[B]

I don't even know.

[A]

Is this a big company?

[B]

Google, yeah, Google, Apple, Every big company. Self insurers.

[A]

So they basically. So when they're contracting with like Cigna, Cigna isn't taking the risk for all of those claims. The company is saying, I'll take all that. But then what is? Cigna processes them.

[B]

All Cigna is doing is basically putting together a network of hospitals and doctors.

[A]

And giving people a card. And then the company actually pays that.

[B]

Yeah. So I said, if I'm paying it anyways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do I need you? I'm going to go right to the hospitals and I'm going to contract directly.

[A]

So you're cutting out the middlemen.

[B]

Cutting out the middlemen. But like we published our price list for Cost Plus Drugs and that changed all the pricing of pharmaceuticals. On the health care side, we're doing something called direct contracting where we're contracting with the hospitals, but we're going to publish the contracts.

[A]

But this is hyperlocal, Right. Like, you couldn't do this if you had national. But you would do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you would just. But it takes so much. It's like, I hate admin. Mark, you're telling me that you would call, you would hire somebody who loves admin to like go negotiate this with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every Hopkins, that's exactly what we're doing, etc.

[B]

And I'm going out talking to all the hospitals and it's cheaper.

[A]

Have you saved money?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What do you do with your save?

[B]

How much money you say 20 to 40% depending on the week.

[A]

Why you're so rich? Because you keep finding ways to save money and the rest. Yeah.

[B]

Just ask why. Always ask why. That's the curiosity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like people like when we started Cost Plus Drugs. Mark, you're a moron. Right? Everybody's tried to change it. You can't change it. People in the industry, you can't change it.

[A]

Could you have changed it if you weren't a billionaire?

[B]

It would be a lot harder.

[A]

How much money you have to put into the thing?

[B]

A lot. A lot. I'm not going to tell you.

[A]

You're not going to tell me.

[B]

I'm not going to Tell you, like.

[A]

Because like, was it like a lot party money or was it like buy a plane money?

[B]

Yeah, more.

[A]

Oh fuck.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So a lot of money.

[B]

Oh fuck money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I always think like, can billionaires save us? It's like in certain industries they kind of have to. Certain industries, like not even that they have to.

[B]

Right. It's just who has the time and is willing to put in the focus and the capital and the capital you can raise capital. But I didn't use outside money because I didn't want to be obligated to somebody to have to make money for them.

[A]

Right, because your mission in this is.

[B]

Yeah, it was different not to make as much money as possible.

[A]

Wasn't a purely capitalist mission.

[B]

Because I want this to be so fucking big, right? That then I can just walk in and say, okay, we're going single payer.

[A]

Because you can scale the thing and then you can.

[B]

So. Because all that's missing is transparency. Single payer won't work today because it's not a fair fight in negotiating between the government and the providers. And they're always used to using middlemen. Insurance companies like Medicare uses PBMs and insurance companies. Medicare Advantage uses PBMs and insurance companies. Right, which makes no sense whatsoever.

[A]

Right?

[B]

The people who are the bad guys, you're, you know, you're using them and it's costing Americans more money.

[A]

Especially because the PBMs are actually, if I'm not incorrect, owned by the insurers or vice versa. Yeah, because for example, like United, which we'll talk about in a second because I want to talk about Luigi, but United owns like Optum, the physician networks. They keep expanding their physician networks more.

[B]

And more and more. Yeah, more and more.

[A]

So it's all scale and then they own also pbm. Right.

[B]

And so the whole point is, can you compete with them through transparency? And the answer is yes, because I can go to all these self insured companies and I can go to their CEOs and I can say to the CEO, you have 100,000 lives that you're responsible for.

[A]

Why in America is our health insurance through our employer? Like that's like a World War II word, right? Like I don't know the story, but I don't know. Weird, right?

[B]

It is. And it isn't. Right. When there's price controls and stuff and you wanted to try to give people more, then healthcare makes perfect sense because that's the scariest thing for a family. So on that end it makes sense. And then if you're competing for employees, you know, because the flip side is you have to go out and negotiate your own, you know, your own care.

[A]

Yeah, but. Or it used to be much easier, right? Like, you go see a doctor, and it was.

[B]

And they would just work it out.

[A]

X dollars. Yeah.

[B]

Right. And so in doing what we're doing for my companies, it's like, I want to make it like 1955.

[A]

You want to make it like 1955?

[B]

Right. Why? Because that was the year for Back to the Future.

[A]

Oh, is it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in any event. Yeah, that's why I just picked that. But in any event, what happens? Right? What is health care all about? You know, your mom, me, whoever. You go to the doctor. The doctor says, oh, you need to go to the hospital for this surgery. Great. All right. How much does it cost in 1955? That's what would happen, Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You say, doc, how much it costs for my checkup? Doc, how much is it gonna cost for my knee surgery? It would tell you. So then the next question is, how would you pay for it? Yeah, back then they would say, we'll finance it for you.

[A]

The doctor would. And they'd give you a loan, basically. They were always, like, kind of in the business of providing credit to patients back then.

[B]

Right. But it was direct to the. No intermediary figuring out a plan for you. And so that's the way it should be. So what I do is we go to a hospital and we say, right now you're losing money in your contract with the insurance company because they're not paying their bills. They're doing denials. Right. They're doing all the. Playing all these games, sitting high deductibles, and you guys lose money as a result. Instead of all that mishigas. Right. What I'm going to do is I'm going to pay you cash and I'm going to pay you right up front. There'll be no denials.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No prias at all. We're going to trust the doctor until you give us a reason not to. There'll be no employee deductibles, so I'll be responsible for paying 100% of it. And in exchange, I want pricing at about 120% of Medicare.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is fair for me and should allow them to make money.

[A]

Is this your new business? Are you going to get into the insurance market?

[B]

No, I just. I don't even want to make it. I want insurance to go away.

[A]

You want to incentivize all the other Capitalists, all the other employers to move into a dialogue.

[B]

I want the employers to stop using. Using insurance companies when they don't need insurance. Right. Because they self insure. Self insured employers are already in a position to dictate pricing. If they're educated enough on how to dictate pricing for pharmaceutical. Pharmaceuticals and for healthcare. They just haven't done it, you know, and they're.

[A]

Isn't it huge? Are they wasting money right now?

[B]

Yes, they're wasting a boatload of money.

[A]

You know, make sure they heard that. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so that's. But they haven't been educated on it because, you know, you're CEO of your company and you know, you know. Right. Yeah. So, you know, podcast industry. You're living and learning a podcast industry. And if once you get up to 100 employees, whatever. Right.

[A]

Soon.

[B]

Yeah, hopefully tomorrow. Right. But you're not gonna immediately.

[A]

Mark.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And your investment and your big cost. Plus drugs.com advertisement on my podcast.

[B]

Always. Always. Fortunately, we haven't had to spend a nickel on advertising.

[A]

I mean, you're a billboard board, Mark.

[B]

I am a walking board.

[A]

So I feel.

[B]

But anyway, so once you get to that size, you still need to be educated on the healthcare side.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's where we come in. The goal is if I can work with these companies and make them demand transparency, publish contracts and do direct contracting so everybody knows the pricing and then act as the financial backstop, all this becomes public and other companies can make wiser decisions themselves. Now all of a sudden, instead of us looking at health care being as this horrific system, now Bernie can come in and say, oh, now we know what it all costs. And we know that you make money, you know, at this, this and this. So here's what we can afford to pay.

[A]

So basically, employers, a bunch of employers, are self insuring. So they're basically paying people. They're paying Cigna and Aetna and United to just administer stuff as opposed to like providing any kind of real insurance.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. So that's happening. These companies are also big enough that they're spending tons of money that's keeping Cigna and Aetna.

[B]

And they're overpaying for.

[A]

They're overpaying and they don't know how much they're paying because there's no transparency.

[B]

They don't think they're overpaying because they have consultants who told them they got a great deal.

[A]

So you're saying if they fire those consultants and actually like did the work, the hard work probably of getting that Information from the insurers, then they would look at it and they would then fire the insurer.

[B]

What the hell is going on here?

[A]

And go directly. So this is a way to basically bully the insurers out of business.

[B]

I wouldn't say bully it. Just put them out of business in.

[A]

A legal nice way. Yeah, no, I mean just put them out of business. Compete them out of business.

[B]

Give them eliminate the reason why big companies to start do business with them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then those same insurance companies create the Medicare Advantage plans when that happens.

[A]

Well, if they just screw the small businesses, that's what they will do.

[B]

No, because hopefully there'll be other. We'll teach them how to direct contract. And that's why we're publishing all of our contracts. So the small businesses can do just. What.

[A]

Where are you publishing them?

[B]

We'll publish it on a website that as of now is called costplus wellness.com. but it's not up. They're not up yet because we're still finalizing a bunch of them.

[A]

So insurance, is insurance a good business.

[B]

For people in it? You have to know it. Yeah, you've got to know it. Yeah, obviously people are still in it. So they think there is. Warren Buffett's in it. So I'm sure he thinks it is.

[A]

He's generally pretty good when you look at, you know, it's also the most, I guess hated business in a lot of ways. And we.

[B]

It is now. Yeah, it is now for health and healthcare insurance.

[A]

Yeah. Because I think everyone had a personal. Everyone's had a personal experience.

[B]

Experience. Everyone.

[A]

Have you. Did you have a personal experience with like dealing with your parents health care?

[B]

No, no. I mean, well, that's not true. But it didn't lead to starting.

[A]

It didn't.

[B]

Right. So my mom had lung cancer and died two years, three years ago next month. We got her to the hospital and. You have lung cancer, Mom. And she already, you know, kind of thought she did and she needed a PET scan. And so she had been in the hospital for a few days. And I'm at the hospital, doctor says she needs a PET scan. And I'm like, well, we're here at the hospital, let's just get her the PET scan. No, she has to check out of the hospital, go home for three days at least and then come back. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

[A]

Requirement for the insurance approval either insurance.

[B]

Approval and Medicare approval and all this gamesmanship that's being played.

[A]

Then you took out your credit card.

[B]

No, I said, fuck you. We're leaving. You know, because I couldn't get. I tried to get another. I called and thinking, okay, hey, I'm Mark Cuban.

[A]

No, I said three days.

[B]

This is the hospital, right. Where I grew up, literally. I used to play baseball in the St Clair Hospital. I used to play baseball in the basketball.

[A]

Name and shame him.

[B]

Yeah, name them and shame them. Right. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? This is insane. But. And if I can't get it changed, you know, other people are suffering far, far, far worse. But that. It's not necessarily just the insurance companies. It's the fact that the interests of the patient, the people who provide the care and the way it's paid for do not align.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not even a little bit.

[A]

No. It's total, like principal agent.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So everybody's trying to, you know, do their own thing, to try to maximize, and it conflicts. And when you do that in an industry that's opaque, like healthcare and pharmaceuticals, everybody loses except for the people with the most power.

[A]

You're absolutely right. And the thing I've noticed about the healthcare system is there's another resource which isn't just money. It's not. It's not insurance or coverage. It's advocacy. Like, you know, when you see people in the hospital have no one there with them, they're a million Americans with no next of kin. You have to be on top of it when you have a parent or.

[B]

Somebody and there's patient management programs and stuff that they do. But. And look, hospitals want to do the right thing. You know, you've got. Hospitals are just trying to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's what kind of distorts a lot of things.

[A]

Isn't that the capitalism?

[B]

Well, yeah, but it's. Oh, for sure. But then socialism doesn't change that.

[A]

I'm not saying go to social.

[B]

No, but even. But let's look at that though, right? So if. If we're in a socialistic society and you run a hospital and you get paid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't get paid the same as somebody, you know, mopping the floors.

[A]

No.

[B]

You're going to get paid more because you need more expertise. And the bigger the hospital you run, the more you're going to get paid. Even in the most communistic or socialistic society, there is still self interest involved.

[A]

Yeah. And there's corruption.

[B]

And there's corruption, all those things.

[A]

I'm not advocating for that.

[B]

No. And I get that. Right. But the point is there's no absolute. You Know, like they say, what is it? Capitalism isn't the best system, but find me one that's better. Look, there's people, wealthy people with more money than me that are like, they just want more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much money do you motherfucking need? How is it going to change your life at all? How is it going to change your kid's life at all? Their kids life, Their kids, their kids you can go for. You've got enough money for multiple generations, you know, presuming you don't have a moron in your family. And you know how much more money.

[A]

Morons can make it big too, right?

[B]

Yeah, we know. But how much do you need?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, there's just going to be people like that always.

[A]

How much money is too much money?

[B]

It's not so much that it's too much, it's how much it's. What do you do when you get. How do you get where you got? And what are you doing to try to get more?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wherever you are, what's the optimal.

[A]

Well, like, what do you think? Like after a certain point doesn't matter anymore.

[B]

No. I don't know. I mean, because if you want to buy a football team, it's going to be $10 billion, you know, and so, yeah, like, most people need luck to get to the level I'm at. Just like, I was born at the right time so that I started an Internet company when the Internet stock market took off. If I would have been born five years earlier, five years later, who knows?

[A]

A friend of mine, Pam Pen Wong, always says, like, if you don't believe in luck, you can't have compassion. And there's a certain amount of ethos here of like the, the American dream and meritocracy, of like, if you made it, then you deserve to have made it. If you don't make it, then you didn't deserve to make it. And I think that's something in the healthcare employment thing. It's like, if you have a job, you deserve to be insured. If you don't have a job, you don't deserve to be insured. That's.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Yeah, that's not cool.

[B]

No. I mean, I'm a big believer. Life is half random. Yeah, you can control half of your life, but there's shit that's outside of your control. There's nothing you can do about it. You know, it could be genetic. It could be any thousand. You walk across the street at the wrong time. Yeah. You know, shit can go wrong. People have Shit fall in their head. A tree falls.

[A]

Yeah. Diagnosis, whatever, whatever it may be.

[B]

Right. Life is half random. And I just think to get to, you know, how much money is too much. It's not a gradual build.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's never a gradual build. Where, okay, today I made a few dollars more. Today I made a few dollars more. Oh, my goodness. I can stop now. It's more, you know, step, step, step, step, step, giant leap for, you know, wallet kind.

[A]

Right. You know, well, it's like that book that you bought, right. And Live like a Student. But maybe when you have a couple million dollars, you don't want to live like a student anymore.

[B]

I just wanted my time. Right. But you wanted freedom. Yeah, I wanted freedom. To me, that's what money buys more than anything. That's what having a plane buys more than anything. I watch all my time.

[A]

Well, there are certain types of money. I have seen that people that actually becomes handcuffs on people or people become used to a certain way of living and so they become trapped by that way.

[B]

You have to keep on making more. Yeah. If you're not willing to give something out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're always going to be in that trap.

[A]

Yeah. Hang tight for a second. We'll be right back. Will being popular make me healthier? It turns out it's less about popularity than it is about having a social support system. I'm Naeema Raza, the host of Smart Girl Dumb Questions and this is a sponsored dumb question brought to you by Noom. So 40% of physicians say that health advocacy actually improves patient outcomes, which is why it's great to be in someone's corner or to have someone in your corner, whether it's to take notes, ask questions, or just encourage good health habits. And that's true of life's big health care moments, like when our parents are in the hospital, and of life's smaller ones. Which is why I love Noom, the behavioral change based weight loss app that helps you set your goals. Noom is there checking in on me even when everybody else is sleeping. Calm down, Noom. It's 6am Sometimes the app even throws me a party. To set your weight loss goals, expand your health support system and throw yourself a party. Visit Noom because progress deserves to be celebrated. You can go to noom.com, that's N-O-O-M.com today I think you said to me, was it like capitalism is broken? Show me a bit, system.

[B]

Show me something. I forget the exact quote, but yeah, effectively, yeah. Kaplan isn't the best system, but show me one that's better.

[A]

So I think there's one that's better, which is the mba.

[B]

The MBA system, huh?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's definitely socialism.

[A]

You would say that as the most fine owner in the NBA.

[B]

James Dolan talked about it all the time in our meetings. It is.

[A]

Right. So I was at the time. So we ran this story. Binya Applebaum. There was a story in the New York Times that was called, is it the NBA or Is it Socialism? A video. Have you seen this? But basically, the NBA has salary caps. What I really like. The worst team gets the best pick. The best team gets the worst pick. Like the drafts rounds. They have all these mechanisms to kind of keep it fair. And I don't think anyone's looking at the NBA and saying they're not playing their hearts out and they're not playing really hard. It seems like it is a capitalist system where it's like.

[B]

Well, it's more to protect the owners from themselves. Because if you look at baseball, baseball, you have teams that spend all the money. The Dodgers, the Mets, now the Yankees. And you have. I'm from Pittsburgh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And every day I get an email from some fan in Pittsburgh saying, will you buy the Pirates?

[A]

See, I didn't even know what the team was.

[B]

They don't spend the money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so there is a bifurcation. It's not, you know, there's not parity or even close to parity.

[A]

And you can pay more in the NBA, you just have to get fined if you pay more.

[B]

Well, yeah, there's luxury taxes and everything, and there's restrictions. But that makes it work because it's not fair that fans in Milwaukee, as an example, or fans in Memphis don't have as good a chance. That's the way it is. It's really to create an equilibrium between different size markets. So isn't that good an equilibrium?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I don't complain about that.

[A]

You like it. So someone else.

[B]

Yeah, Jim Golan.

[A]

Jim Gol Dolan.

[B]

He owns the Knicks.

[A]

The Knicks. Oh, okay.

[B]

And I'm not saying he's complaining about it. Yeah. But he makes the point that we are a socialist organization.

[A]

So the NBA has managed to create this system, like, if you look at health care. And part of the reason it screwed up that we haven't even talked about is the fact that, like, all of these companies, these big companies are, you know, putting in campaign donations for their congressmen and, like, putting in money to lobby for the regulations that behoove Them.

[B]

Get rid of Citizens United. I'm all for it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. The huge regulatory capture that's happening in the healthcare industry. And then you have this other system which I think is better than capitalism, the MBA system, where you have fair play, unfettered, kind of like, you know, like real heart and passion and money flying around. A lot of money flying around, but some limitations to the system. And the billionaires that are there own the teams, but they do not own the system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So how can the U.S. government. This is like a total dumb question or it's a genius question. I don't know. But like, how can the US Government learn from the NBA or how can systems learn from that?

[B]

I mean, the other side of the NBA is very much exclusionary. You know, not everybody can get in. There's not an unlimited number of franchises. And part of the value proposition for how the NBA runs is increasing the value of the franchises. And so you couldn't to have the government do that. Okay, Pittsburgh, sorry, there's not enough here for us. Dallas, you're in Pittsburgh. You don't have a franchise, so you.

[A]

Don'T get any given federalism.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It's like opt in. But. But at some point, like the value of system is the American economy. And in that case, like the American economy grows.

[B]

No, I would tell you the value of the system is the American people. I just had this conversation with a politician yesterday. You see our current president taking credit for everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our last president, Bidenomics. I did this. I did. You. You didn't do. I'm not saying all his programs are bad. Right. But it wasn't him implementing them and making them work.

[A]

Of course, it's the people.

[B]

It's the people who do it. It's entrepreneurs who start. When I was going around campaigning for comma, one of the things I used to say all the time, because the Democrats can't sell. We're shit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I was the only one who could try. And I'm not even a Democrat. But.

[A]

But you're a billboard.

[B]

I'm a billboard, yes. And I would say that there are 33 million businesses in this country and 99% of them, give or take, are run by individuals who make $400,000 or less.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's who makes this country go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, 65% of new jobs come from small businesses. Innovation comes from those people. What makes our country different. And I would say this all the time. This be my closing billboards. I would say you can go to any country in the world. And there's not the Chinese dream or the German dream, there's the American dream. Because this is the one country where everybody has that idea, like you talked about earlier, getting that feeling in your stomach going to Google to check it out. Everybody in this country has had that happen to them at some point. And there are 33 million people who have said, yes, I'm starting this business. And of those 33 million, it could be a 12, 50 or 100-year-old person. Those are the people. That's what's important. That's what makes this economy. Because we all have that opportunity now. It's not equal opportunity for everybody. Not everybody is put in that position to create those companies. But there is that opportunity there.

[A]

I think. I mean, having grown up outside of the U.S. i see that, like, I mean, you see more entrepreneurialism and you haven't seen like Apple or these trillion dollar companies come out of a lot of places that don't already have an immense natural resource in the form of, you know, oil or whatever. But you do. Like, I do feel that entrepreneurial spirit in other places. I'm Pakistani, but in India, for example.

[B]

Well, you got 1.4 billion people. Shit's gonna happen.

[A]

Shit's gonna happen. Like. But then people feel like this unfairness of, well, I'm supposed to be able to do that. And I haven't done that. For whatever reason, I haven't done it. And therefore I'm supposed to have this shittier lot in life. Like that is part of what the system is telling us. And I think it's not about what would you do? So I don't know. I want to make it more like the NBA, but you're saying it's too exclusive. Everyone has to shoot hoops to be able to play. But I do want to. I think that it's about leveling the playing field a little bit right between the team. I mean, part of it is like, I mean, trying to provide some services, like provide universal healthcare, not do student loan forgiveness, which I personally think is kind of dumb because I think a bunch of really bad universities.

[B]

Well, it's because we give so much. We give so much money. Loan so much money. It's really easy for schools to raise the price.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

As it turns out, the price of tuition has been coming down over the last 10 years because fewer and fewer people are going to college now.

[A]

But the sticker price goes up. And they do the same thing with like the PBMs where they stick the rebates.

[B]

Right. You're exactly right.

[A]

And they like charge you less.

[B]

We gave you a deal. Such a deal.

[A]

Yeah. Or. But I think like, you make, you know, community colleges and state universities really, really good and incentivize people to go to them in a big way.

[B]

Community college is free. You pick one public university per dma, each market area.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like one in the Dallas area. And you negotiate. You give all the public universities a chance to compete. You say, we're going to pick one and for the next 10 years you're going to be free. But that way everybody's got to compete with free. And it's still capitalistic. But it's. Yeah, but.

[A]

And I think part of it is like also designing more around the individual than around the entity. Like even. You're talking about 33 million companies. Well, what about like 330 million? I don't know. People. Yeah. How do you think about.

[B]

So the question is, when do you give up on people? That's the problem. The problem is kids are born into situations and we give up on them before they get started.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't pick your parents and you get the wrong parent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and you're fucked. And how do you deal with that? And there is an answer. The question is, what is the answer and how do you do it in a way that can get passed? You know, when you look at money out of pocket from taxpayers, which should be the priority, you know, spending money on a kid the minute it's born and making sure that it's got care, it's got food, it's got education. And that to me should be a primary concern because I think that's a good investment. We don't do that.

[A]

No. We instead put a bunch of money into their health care at the end of their lives.

[B]

At the end of their lives. Or we just say it, you're on your own. You know, And I'm not talking about ubi. I mean, even though I'm not opposed to UBI for caregivers.

[A]

Yeah. Universal basic income. Yeah.

[B]

You know, if, you know, for, for.

[A]

Anyone who's taking care of their parent.

[B]

Or even the child, because it's a good investment.

[A]

Like, the big question for me is like, can billionaires save us? And I came in with some sense that like they can't or at least we shouldn't expect them to. But your system is. Costplusdrugs.com is a way.

[B]

Doesn't mean billionaires can't do good things.

[A]

Yeah, but you're limiting yourself. Like you are self regulating. You're saying, I'm not gonna charge a 25% markup or 35%. And you probably could have charged.

[B]

That's selfish. You know, Ayn Rand, who's. I'm a fan of, like, the virtue of selfishness. I get immense joy from fucking up the healthcare system.

[A]

Yeah, that's worth more than to you than the money.

[B]

Yeah, that's worth more to me than the money. It's just like. Yeah, it's like winning the championship for the Mavs.

[A]

How do you get people. How do you create incentives for people to create a company like yours versus a company that charges?

[B]

There's plenty of people who do it. You know, it's just. They're not the billboard. Yeah, that's the harder part. You know, there are solutions there, but it always goes back to, where are the incentives? We can talk about billionaires, but you also have to talk about politicians. I mean, the dumb shit the politicians do just to get reelected. And the amount of money that we spend on political campaigns to get somebody elected or reelected, it's ridiculous.

[A]

Especially when most people can't name their congressperson, and that's where all that money goes.

[B]

Royce West, I don't know if he's mine anymore, but that state.

[A]

But that's like capitalism in our politics, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you spend time in a system like health care and think capitalism is still like, laissez faire? Capitalism is still the best way forward?

[B]

So this gets to another question, right? So how do you approach solving problems? And I get on this, on blue sky all the time with people. You know, burn it down, you know, socialize everything. Well, what problem are you solving? You know, because it's one thing to say, do this, and this is the solution. It's a whole nother thing to go through the process and say, okay, I can get from where we are today to solving the problem. And you may hate billionaires trying to get up, but that's why. That's how some of us think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, how do you. It's not just what's the end goal, but it's what's the process to get to the end goal. And not all, like, there's bad. Good, whatever, but. But I don't think politicians do that at all. They think, what am I gonna do to get me reelected? And I might have the best interest of people at heart. It's aligned with me getting reelected versus.

[A]

Like, in your case, like, you have good interest for the people, but you also have the interest in, like, of fucking with the bad. Guys, Hell yes. Which is a really good motivator.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's a great motivator.

[A]

It's a great motivator in life. I also think like, okay, on the NBA point, like there's a way that they found to find. And you paid a lot of. How much did you pay?

[B]

I don't even know. Millions.

[A]

Millions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My God. Must be nice, Mark. It is nice to yell at somebody.

[B]

By the way, I lost money in the NBA until I sold on a year to year basis. I made money out of 24 years I owned the team. Two years maybe.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My favorite of your fines was like you told somebody you couldn't work at.

[B]

Like a Dairy Queen.

[A]

A Dairy Queen.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was right when I bought the team and I told the head of officials, they I wouldn't hire him to run a Dairy Queen. They find me half a million dollars. But then the guy who owned a Dairy Queen north of Dallas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Called me up and says, why don't you come and work Dairy Queen for a year?

[A]

He was insulted.

[B]

No, because he saw. He saw an opportunity. Yeah. So he called every media outlet in all of Dallas, Nashville, Katie Couric on the Today show. And I'm in there trying to learn how to make a Dairy Queen cone. It's 9117 to get the curl.

[A]

11 7. You still remember that?

[B]

Yeah. And I'm getting there at six in the morning to learn how to make Dairy Queen cones and blizzards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean a mean blizzard. My cones were for shit. But. But there was literally, I got there at 7 in the morning, give or take. There was a line 2 miles long of people. Like if you ever, if you Google Mark Cuban Dairy Queen and look at the pictures, it is insane. There were helicopters. Like really? Oh my God. But that's when I was billboard and well, that's why I learned how to be a billboard. That's why I learned it was going to be different. My life was going to be different.

[A]

So when you saw Donald Trump at the McDonald's, did you know like that what looked like a Norman Rockwell painting?

[B]

Yeah, he did it. It was smart. It was a billboard.

[A]

It was a billboard.

[B]

He knows how to sell.

[A]

Okay, here's a dumb question, but like why can't we. I know you hate taxes on unrealized gains. You're happy to pay your tax.

[B]

You can't do it. Yeah.

[A]

You can't do it because it's patriotic to pay your taxes. You pay your taxes in full, but you can't Tax people on unrealized gains. Explain why.

[B]

Because let's just say that you get an offer for your podcast and the threshold was $100 million, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's just say you've just built this into the most amazing, amazing, amazing podcast.

[A]

Keep going, Mark.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, I like that.

[B]

And you know, Joe Rogan begged to work for you, and you build it up. You know, Theo Vaughn now works for you.

[A]

You can come. Joe and Theo, right? Come be curious.

[B]

You can use our offer. You get offered a billion dollars. So now it's worth a billion dollars.

[A]

In a stock or equity, whatever.

[B]

In stock.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Let's say you went public and it's worth a billionaire.

[A]

Paper billionaire.

[B]

You're a paper billionairess.

[A]

So nice. Yeah.

[B]

And so if all of a sudden there's a 40% tax on unrealized gains or even 20% on unrealized gains, you've got $26,000 in the bank and you.

[A]

Have a tax bill of $200 million.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See, people always say that, like, oh, if you make it so high, it'll become prohibitive. But the last time, like, Bill Gates did something really innovative.

[B]

I've had two experiences with Bill Gates, and actually, I admire all the things he's done for society and the world. When I sold Broadcast.com right afterwards, I got asked to do a speech. And I wasn't gonna do any more speeches. Cause I sold and I was in the Mavs now, but Bill Gates was on before me. And I gave this speech just so I could walk up there and say I always wanted to have Bill Gates as my opening act.

[A]

Bill Gates was your fluffer. I said it, not you. You don't have to say it in.

[B]

Anyway, so the first time, though, I experienced Bill Gates was I had my first company. I was at this show called comdex, which was the world's largest computer show event convention. And so I'm there. I'm 26 maybe, and I'm thinking, I'm living life, right? My company just started to build and I'm buying drinks. I'd met these girls and everything, and a couple of really pretty girls. And I'm like. They told me they're going to the bathroom. I'm like, okay. And I'm waiting there with my drinks and everything. They don't come back. And then I see one of them. And next day, or whatever, oh, we ran into Bill Gates. He had a lot more money than you do. And so every time Bill Gates stole my girls.

[A]

For every man in a club, saying, I'm richer than you. I'm richer than you. I'm richer than you.

[B]

There's one that's richer than me. Yeah.

[A]

Or every man or woman in this case in the world sitting there. Cause Oprah could be in the club that.

[B]

I don't care if you've got more money than me. More power to you.

[A]

So Bill Gates, but the last, like, you know, he made Microsoft when the tax rate was like, what, 70%?

[B]

Oh, no, no. The rules were a lot.

[A]

But people made companies when they were. When taxes were much.

[B]

But there were so many deductions. There were so many ways. Even when it was 90%, there were so many different deductions and exceptions that you could get that it was rare.

[A]

Okay. There's no way to like, think about unrealized gains taxes.

[B]

Unrealized gains. It's just, just doesn't work because now. So when they were proposing all this. And so it was. And actually it was never really proposed. It was part of the Joe Biden budget.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. And you only use that to try to balance.

[A]

And it was part of the Elizabeth Warren.

[B]

Well, she wanted. Yeah, yeah. She wanted to. But when they were going through all of this and trying to explain what they didn't even address. Yeah. So let's just say you make an investment and investment. You put in $100,000 and you lose $100,000.

[A]

I love how rich I am. And your imagination, Mark, is fucking great.

[B]

So, okay, you put in $6,000 and it goes out of business. Unless you have $6,000 of capital gains in that year, you can only deduct 3.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

$3,000. Doesn't matter if you invest $6,000. Doesn't matter if you invest a million dollars. Doesn't matter if you invest $200 million. A billion dollars. You can take $3,000 as a deduction. If you don't have offsetting capital gains.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And so how. You know.

[A]

Yeah, it's hard to tax. But then at the same time, like a lot of people, like, how much do you pay yourself from your company? You pay yourself a dollar.

[B]

Nothing. Yeah.

[A]

Or something. Right. Like a lot of. A lot of people pay themselves a dollar. Make all their money in equity. And then, I mean, you saw that reporting. Then they borrow against loans. Borrow against that. Which is different way to capture some value in this.

[B]

And there's an argument to be made that you treat that as income.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know. And do it.

[A]

Those loans as income.

[B]

Yeah. Treat those loans as income. But you've always got to look like Shark Tank. When I sat down there and they were trying to tell me about, you know, we're going to increase the capital gains tax to 40%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I sat down there with the Harris people and I said, hypothetical, not even hypothetical. Specific examples in Shark Tank, over the course of a season, I might invest in, in 18 companies. And of those companies, typically it's one that is a winner.

[A]

One out of 18 is a pretty good ratio for investment.

[B]

And, you know, of 18 and 10 of them just are, you know, doggy paddling. Right. They're just holding on and then 10 and one. So seven companies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go belly up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The one that's going to make me all the money isn't going to pay me the same time the companies go belly up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's going to be 10 years later, it's going to be 15 years later, it may be forever before I get any cash back. So I've lost all that money that I've put in to create 18 companies. And you're not considering that whatsoever. So why am I going to invest in as many companies, particularly small companies, particularly people of color, because they need more support. Women too. Women actually are better entrepreneurs, but they need more support because they may not have all the background, which means I'm taking a greater risk. And so you're not recognizing the risk. You're only trying to hit me on the reward.

[A]

Okay. What about salary caps and salary minimums for CEOs?

[B]

Okay, so that's a different question.

[A]

Do you like that?

[B]

I'm not opposed to it. And so I wrote a blog post way back when where basically, so when you see all these salaries for CEOs, 2550, you know, $100 million, $15 million, most of that's in stock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so there's still risk associated with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And you know, because stock market, you could be, you know, have a bunch of your stock in Nvidia and yesterday it was down 16%.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So now if you got your stock at the wrong time, now you're shit out of luck. Right. You don't know if it's coming back at all or like from, what was it from 2000, the NASDAQ stock index was at 5000 and it took until five years ago before it got back to that level.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So if all your stock now, they'll reprice, play games, but still you have a chance of losing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, but what I've said was make companies pay in cash.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then give your CEOs enough cash go out and buy options and go buy whatever you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then whenever you give stock to employees, whatever the ratio to salary that you do for the CEO, you have to do for every full time employee.

[A]

See, and that's great because then you could tax them too.

[B]

Well, on the cash.

[A]

On the cash.

[B]

And they'll still, you know, they'll buy long term options. They come leaps. Right. And those will appreciate and the government won't get any of that while that appreciates. But there's risk that it doesn't appreciate.

[A]

And the government has to spend the money better. Do you think they're going to do that with Doge? Are you actually hopeful about it?

[B]

I don't think Elon's necessarily the right person to do it, but I think it's the right concept for sure.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, but he's another example of a billionaire who's trying to save us by taking us to Mars. What do you think of that?

[B]

Nothing wrong with it.

[A]

Yeah, there's something about like those kinds of missions that require that kind of what we were talking about in healthcare, like the kind of capital and scale.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's why you're guessing. That's why I want. Well, Elon's different, you know, particularly. And it's not even so much the money as the billboard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The bigger the billboard, the more the power. The more the power, the more intoxicating. The more intoxicating the. The more you don't want to lose it and the more it changes who you are. The same happens with politicians, same happens with CEOs.

[A]

How can we keep billionaires good? Do you have like WhatsApp groups? Like good billionaire, WhatsApp, bad billionaire.

[B]

I am in this one. But they're not all billionaires. But there's a lot of WhatsApp group. It's a signal group.

[A]

Yeah, it's a signal group.

[B]

And I'm like, I can't tell you who's in it.

[A]

You can't tell me who's in it?

[B]

No, I have to. Nope. I have to cut off your tongue.

[A]

Okay. That's a good pilot. I like it. But there is groups and this is a good billionaires group.

[B]

I was on a Simpsons episode where it was like the billionaire heritage and some guy's net worth went from, you know, 990 of 1 billion and a little bit to 999 million and I had to kick him out.

[A]

What was your line?

[B]

The only line I remember from it, it was season eight is they made me say I'm out of my mind. It was the coolest thing ever. Right. They put me in this audio sound box.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, with the microphone and everything. And there was this thing because they had. Part of it was related to the Mavs. And The Mavs and Mr. Smithers wanted to buy a sports. And he was like, who's that Mark Cuban guy? Right. And they just showed me jumping from the top of the arena screaming, I'm out of my mind. I'm out of my mind. But the best part was in this little soundproof booth, I would scream it and they'd be like, no, it's gotta be louder.

[A]

Oh. And they're like, the director.

[B]

Yeah, he's in my ear. It's gotta be louder. And so when you see me on the Simpsons, Season eight, was that more.

[A]

Rewarding screen appearance for you than Sharknado or.

[B]

No, Sharknado was a blast.

[A]

Are you gonna. What are they on, like, the 9th or 10th sharknado, or is it keep? They keep.

[B]

I don't think stopped. Yeah.

[A]

You didn't get a call back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would have gotten a call back. You think, if they had more.

[B]

No, they did ask me to do another one. And they would do it. Yeah. I wouldn't do it, but it was so much fun. So much.

[A]

Really.

[B]

I can't even begin to describe how much fun shooting that was because I got to shoot fake guns. I got to shoot at sharks. You know, I got to run and slide and, you know, be the president and, like, have the sharks coming at the White House, shooting these rifles at the fake sharks, going, not my house. And then the better part was that when I. Because I made a deal, I said, I can't get eaten no matter what. I can be bitten, but not.

[A]

You wanted to be in a sequel.

[B]

I wanted to be in a sequel. I wanted to survive.

[A]

That was your writer?

[B]

Oh, yeah, basically. But the funniest part was I had, like, Lou Ferrigno, the guy who played the Hulk back in the day. Right. Rick Fox, 6, 8, basketball player. All these other people, they were getting killed. They're like the security guards and everything. And they're getting eaten by sharks that aren't there yet. So they had to make them lay on the ground and do all these convulsions. And I'm watching these enormous guys, you know, just convulsing. It was great. And then there's this other scene where the sharks are coming through and we're running. Oh, my God. It was so much fun.

[A]

Why aren't you doing more Acting. You loved it.

[B]

Oh, I love doing the acting. So whenever I get asked, like, I've got a movie coming up with Mark Wahlberg where I don't. All I do is get shot and killed by Mark Wahlberg.

[A]

Do you get to at least play yourself in the cadaver?

[B]

Well, no. Yeah. And then the guy. The line is, you just shot Mark Cuban.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

Now, whether or not it makes it in the movie, I don't know, but I love that.

[A]

Oh, I don't want you to be left on the cutting room floor.

[B]

Oh, but it's fun because they put all the squibs in me and every. You know, and one time I had to do the head back, you know, the other time, the head down. Yeah, it was. It's cool. I love this. That stuff.

[A]

I think that's why. I think that's why you're, like, one of the billionaires that people like. It's like, you just have fun.

[B]

Yeah. How can I not? I'm the luckiest on the planet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, not everything goes right, but. Oh, my God. I mean, you don't want. I don't want to be 95 years old and say, oh, why didn't I do, you know, the podcast and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, why didn't I do this? Why didn't I do that? Why? You know, the. You know, here's my attitude on all that. Like, if you're poor and you still have a good attitude and you're, you know, you enjoy your family, you enjoy your friends, and you find something positive, then when you're rich.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, shit. You're gonna love every minute of it. If you're one of the people that is just always, you know, bad at it, you know, negative on everything and just can't find anything positive ever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't care how much money you get, you're gonna have. You're gonna be that same person. You are who you are.

[A]

Was it hard for you to sell the Mavs because you were having so much fun? Or did you think, like, even with 27, it's 27% that you own now?

[B]

Yeah, no, it was hard, but I just felt like, you know, as much as there was the positive of owning a sports team in this multimedia day and age and social media day and age, the hate is through the roof now. Maybe, you know, it's funny, like, if.

[A]

They lose or if you.

[B]

If you player everything, everything. But it's funny if Blue sky would been around. Cause it's not. Not nearly the Same. Yeah, I might.

[A]

It's that liberal fun festival is.

[B]

And it's not as much. It's a little bit less liberal every day. But unfortunately, it's good for ideas. Different ideas.

[A]

You want to hear people that disagree with you.

[B]

Exactly. But, yeah, but it's because of the hateful attitudes a lot in sports. I don't want my kids to be positioned in that. And I, you know, and there were other little things. And, you know, in order to compete in that socialistic environment, you know, I had to. You had to generate revenue. I was losing money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the way to do that was real estate. That's what all the teams are doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I suck at real estate. I don't want to say, okay, let me go borrow money and put in a billion dollars and build something and build stadium with shit I don't know how to do. And everybody said, well, just hire somebody. What if you hire the wrong person and you get all these costs over and yada, yada.

[A]

Sure, you can hire someone to hire someone.

[B]

Yeah. But you know what I'm saying, you.

[A]

Don'T want to be in that business.

[B]

Right. Because I talked to you about going down the rabbit hole. Right. And. And, you know, having Cost plus over here versus, Okay, I can still go to the games.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, it's just instead of losing money every year, now I put money in my pocket.

[A]

Yeah, well, but. And you sold it to the Adelsons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who are like, completely opposed to you. And politically, I think.

[B]

I wouldn't say opposed, but they support.

[A]

You're independent, you're not a Democrat.

[B]

I'm not a Democrat. Yeah.

[A]

Democratic candidate.

[B]

And so they're fans of Trump's because of his support of Israel. That's it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that's fine.

[A]

Yeah. And that's not hard for you. What do you think it is about sports that transcends politics that we can learn from?

[B]

Like, I think, you know, there used to be, like, back when I was, you know, in Broadcast.com and owning theaters and everything, used to talk about that the definition of TV is the best alternative to boredom because we need diversions. And sports is one of those. Best alternative to boredom. Like we talked before being in that arena. Where else can you go and just scream at the top of your lungs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where else are you gonna hug and high five somebody that if you knew what they were about, you wouldn't even talk to them?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's just we need more of that shit. We do need more of it. And. And you know When United States is an underdog in the Olympics, the country comes together.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Like this summer. Yeah. It was Ray Gun and the US Sports Team.

[B]

Right, The Ray Gun. Yeah, the US Sports Teams.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the two together. But that's. That's special.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it also takes a lot of emotional commitment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because when you're, you know, the. Running it for all Mavs fans everywhere, that's an emotional drain. I mean, if you ever saw me at games, now it's a lot less stress for me because it's not all my decisions, it's not all my money. You know, there's not so much at stake.

[A]

The able men's, who I'm staying, my friends who I'm staying with here, they told me they saw you before a game, and you were so friendly in chat because I guess they were near you or something. You're so friendly. And then the Mavs lost, and at the end, you were just, like, fucking angry. I couldn't wait to get out of there. Like, no recognition, nothing.

[B]

I just put my head down because I don't want to say something I'll regret.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But we do need more of that. Okay. Every interview with you ends being asked if you want to be in politics. You've already said no.

[B]

No. Okay. There's two sides. I don't want to be president. Yeah. I think I can have influence. The billboard.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and because I don't have a team, I think I can just do what I believe is right.

[A]

So the billboard swings both ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. You were a fluffer. I swing both ways, you know.

[A]

Yes, that's true. Who would make a better candidate than you in 2028?

[B]

You know, I've been asked that, and I have no idea. I don't pay that close attention to, you know, but I just think it's. If somebody can demonstrate leadership through accomplishment. Not with the financial scoreboard necessarily, but if you go and you change something, if you come up with an idea and you implement it and show people that. That you can lead and solve problems, because that's what we don't have. You know, we had Joe Biden. You know, I like what happened with the CHIPS act. There's a lot of things. His heart was in the right place, but he couldn't. He couldn't sell dollar bills for 50 cents.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you can't do that, then it's hard to let people know what's happening. It's hard to be a leader, you have to be able to align selling When I say selling it doesn't mean, you know, convincing people to do something they otherwise wouldn't do. It's about, you know, showing people you're gonna help them, then helping them and then aligning your interests. Hey, work with me. Because all of our interests are aligned for these reasons. Having somebody who can demonstrate that, that's the type of person we need.

[A]

Okay, two questions out of that one. I read something, I think it was in New York mag the other day. I actually didn't read the piece, just a headline. It said, kamala Harris has not ruled out a run in 2028.

[B]

Fine.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

You know, she did reasonably well considering she only had four months. I think, I think she will have learned the lesson that political handlers are your worst enemies.

[A]

Middlemen. It's always middleman.

[B]

Chop out the middleman.

[A]

Okay, interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think, you know, I like her. She's, she's a good person, she's straightforward, she's smart, but she's not a salesperson. And that's going to be the challenge.

[A]

Comes back to the NBA for me, which is fair fight. Like I'd like to see a fair fight. I was like one of the people in fall of 2023 who thought Biden, you know, was old and had said he was going to, had indicated he was going to be a one term president and then change his mind. Yeah, yeah. And then in the coronation. So I'm like, I'm of the mind that like, let's not even talk about 2028. Let's see some names.

[B]

No, you know what?

[A]

Like, let's have a beauty contest.

[B]

So, you know, I'm of the orientation that you don't talk about names, you talk about solutions.

[A]

Yeah. Billionaires are coming forth a lot in electoral politics. I mean, they always have to some extent. Like Bloomberg, you know, I think there are a lot of people in New York City where I live, where people are nostalgic for Bloomberg. The straws there in San Francisco, who's just come in, obviously Donald Trump inherited maybe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. Is he?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know the math. I don't know the math, but I believe advertising. So, like, do you think that's a good thing, Billionaires running for office?

[B]

I think it's irrelevant.

[A]

You think it's irrelevant? Do you think billionaires get a bad rap?

[B]

Yes. You don't know me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if I value, you know, if I judge somebody by their bank account, it goes both ways. If it's wrong to judge somebody because you know they're poor. Just as wrong to judge them in my mind, because they're wealthy. Nobody was saying to me, mark, you're sleeping on the floor. You have zero money. Literally. You know, I've told the story before. I was 27 years old and went to the ATM and I had 00, 0 at that moment because I put all my money into my business and zero in my bank account.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And nobody was saying, mark, your. Your opinion matters more now. Understand and respect the person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just unless someone gives you a reason not to respect them, the default should be to respect them. Whether they're, you know, immigrants, legal, illegal, you know, business people, you know, junkies. I don't care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until you show me otherwise.

[A]

It's not like a exclusive. Like, you're like, you can hate some billionaires, but just don't hate billionaires as a class.

[B]

Well, no, group.

[A]

They're not all the same. And don't hate them on the table.

[B]

Yeah. Just look to see who they are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wouldn't you treat anybody else that way? And so, you know when someone says, eat the rich, I don't care. You know when someone says, you know, every billionaire is a political failure. Okay, I understand, and I can understand.

[A]

That sentiment, but that's like, hate the game, don't hate the player.

[B]

Yeah. It just is what it is, right?

[A]

Is that what you say? Hate the player.

[B]

Hate the player. Hate the game, not the player.

[A]

So in the midst of Louis Jean news, Kathy Hochul, governor of New York, had a meeting, and there was some reporting around this from CNN that New York was, quote, considering setting up a hotline for CEOs so they can call to report security concerns or threats. And it was reported the same week as, like, a woman was lit on fire in the mta. And you can imagine this, you know, made people right.

[B]

Why do they get special? Yeah.

[A]

What do you think about that? Like, do you think we need protection? Like, do we live in an era right now where people are so mad at wealth that the wealthy need more?

[B]

No. I mean, I have security. I can afford my own security.

[A]

You got henchmen?

[B]

I got henchmen.

[A]

How many?

[B]

76 of them.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I was, well, henched. Yeah. And it's more for my kids than anything else, you know, and family, so.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then billionaires, we care about what they think about everything. We ask them for their opinion. Like, I'm here. I'm asking you for your opinion. What do you think of that? Is that kind of insane?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yes. But at the same time, you know, we listen to actors, we listen to athletes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it goes back to what Charles Barkley said long time ago. I am not a role model.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but we live in a content society where everybody's got to fill up as much content. Every podcast needs a guest.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Like here. I'm like, I'm gonna cut two podcasts out of this shit.

[B]

Okay, all right. We keep on talking. Right?

[A]

But if you.

[B]

You know, why do we listen to billionaires? Because every podcast needs a guest.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. Okay, look at this. I mean, now I feel like I have to get billionaires for all the other episodes, and that's not gonna work for, like, what do you do if you see a.

[B]

But you get my point, right?

[A]

Can I do the. What do you do if you see a bear episode? I'm not gonna ask a billionaire. No billionaire is gonna know what to do.

[B]

I fucking wouldn't know what to do.

[A]

It depends on the color of the bear. Does anyone know this?

[B]

Let me just say. Yeah. If any shadows.

[A]

So every episode on the show. Not every episode is gonna have a billionaire, but every episode in the show is gonna end with, like, what is the guest dumb about? What's a dumb question you have that you don't know the answer to?

[B]

Oh, my God. There's unlimited number. What's a question I have that I don't know the answer to? Yeah.

[A]

What is Mark Cuban dumb about?

[B]

Why do people chew with their mouths open?

[A]

Just show us what it would look like chewing with your mouth. No.

[B]

That is my ultimate pet peeve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why are some people afraid of heights and others are not? What is it?

[A]

Yeah, you know, mission accepted, Mark. I'm going to find these answers for you. I'm going to find the answers to these questions.

[B]

I don't know why, but I do know from a thing I got from.

[A]

Wait, are you going to tell me you know about the thing you're dumb about?

[B]

No, no, no, no. I can have one smidgen of information, right? I can have a data point. I have a data point.

[A]

Okay, what's a data point?

[B]

Data point is that 17% of people are annoyed by people eating with their mouths open.

[A]

I am in the Super 17.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I'm like, that's like a no second date situation for me.

[B]

One of my best friends. I will not go out to dinner with him. I'll go drinking. I'll do whatever.

[A]

So you want to know why do some people chew with their mouth open?

[B]

Yeah. Why is it like.

[A]

Is there like a natural. You want. I know why some people are chewing biological reality.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Right. I know why. I know why people don't like it like us. Because it's genetic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't know why they do it. Yeah. I don't. Why would you do this? Knowing that 17% of the population is just annoyed as fuck.

[A]

Wow. I feel like the next business you're gonna start is like mouthclosed dot com, Shoot with your mouth closed dot com. No.

[B]

But I did invest in the shark tank company for hiccups.

[A]

Oh, really? Called Hickaway Hicaway.

[B]

It is the coolest thing ever.

[A]

It's working.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

Worse. Better than slapping someone if they hiccup.

[B]

Unless you enjoy the slapping part. Right. No doubt about that. None.

[A]

Questions? We're gonna find out for you. The mouth open thing, right? And number two, heights. That's a really good. That is question. That is a good question. Why are some.

[B]

Why are you afraid of heights?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have no idea. I found out when I was 5 years old.

[A]

Are you afraid?

[B]

Oh, I'm terrified.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, my God. My dad told me the story. He took me to my first baseball game and the only tickets we could afford were at the very top. And he said by the time I got to the second ramp where we're up in the air, I started shaking, screaming, and crying.

[A]

Oh, he's poor little five year old non billionaire Mark Cuban.

[B]

And it didn't change for the rest of my life.

[A]

Still.

[B]

Oh, my God. So in Pittsburgh, right? The stall in Pittsburgh to go to a Pittsburgh Pirates game, you have to walk across a bridge. And it's one of those greats on the sidewalks where you can see down. Literally. My friends would laugh their asses off at me. I would like squeeze the rails to be able to like one leg at a time, walk across. And then like roller coasters.

[A]

No, but private planes, you're fine.

[B]

Yeah. Because it feels stable. Any plane. Like when I flew for the very first time, I was really scared that I was gonna have a problem. And so. Yeah.

[A]

All right. We're gonna find out the answers. Thank you so much, Mark.

[B]

This was fun.

[A]

You're so generous.

[B]

It was fun. Yeah. You're good.

[A]

You have good first guest energy. So Mark Cuban is a pretty good billboard as a advertised and I think a lot of fun. And my mind was pretty blown by his vision for health care. And at the same time I left with these kind of two lingering thoughts, one of which is why is our health care tied to our employment? It still doesn't make sense to me. And just as someone who's an independent creative like makes me think of all the people who are shackled to jobs that they don't want because of health insurance, or all the people who don't have health insurance because they're not employed but they're trying to do something really productive and good for society. And two, while I think this idea of employers being the ones that will get us to a single payer system or better health care is like a fine and noble vision, I also wonder, like why government doesn't have that negotiating power and if the very system of capitalism is the reason why our government is so neutered and so unable to do things. Because ultimately the people we voted into office are owned by the donors and the billionaires and the capitalists who, you know, push money into the system. That's why I'm still really interested in this NBA model. Like here's some real competition, some stellar play, and they're able to keep billionaires in line and in check and level the playing field and have a lot more fairness. Maybe I need to have Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, on to talk to me about that. We can learn from him about keeping billionaires in check. Maybe he'll run for president. Maybe he knows what to do if he sees a bear. Thanks for listening to this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. By the way, if you have smart ideas on Dumb Questions, I want to know them, so put them in the comments below. Leave us a review if you like the show, hit, subscribe or follow wherever you get your content or drop me an email. I'm naimaraza101mail.com thanks for listening to this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I want to give a huge thanks to Jesse Creel, Maya, Mark's mutual friend who made this episode happen, as well as to my friend Theresa Chow who named the show Show. A very special thanks. Also to my brand partners like Noom, who made it possible for me to create a podcast that Mark Cuban thinks is going to make me as rich as him. Unlikely.

[B]

And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Be Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us.

[A]

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual com.

[B]

Liberty. Liberty.

[A]

Liberty. Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.

[B]

Excludes Massachusetts.