← Smart Girl Dumb Questions
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- [00:00]
A
I'm not gonna do a long intro.
- [00:02]
B
I get uncomfortable with intros anyway. Which we can talk about.
- [00:05]
A
Smart Girl, dumb Questions. This is Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. I'm Naima Raza, and I'm not gonna give you a long introduction today because my guest has to run. Literally. Alexi Pappas is an amazing runner, an Olympian, a. I don't know how many times you were an NCAA running finalist. How many times?
- [00:24]
B
I actually only went to two. Ncaa. Well, no. Depends if you count the relay teams.
- [00:30]
A
Yeah, I think we count relay.
- [00:31]
B
Yeah. Several. Handful. Handful.
- [00:34]
A
Amazing runner. You're also an author, a filmmaker. You've written a beautiful book called Bravy, which I think is a very brave book to have written. Thank you. We're going to talk about all of that. But first of all, I want to start with this question that plagues me, which is, why does anyone run?
- [00:47]
B
Well, do you run? I was thinking about this, and I was like, I wanted to know what your experience was.
- [00:52]
A
Yes. I am not much of a runner. Running is something I do at airports when I'm about to miss my flight, and at a workout class when, you know, doing it at high intensity. But I'm not a person who goes and runs for X number of miles or hours or wait. We actually should give some background on how you and I met.
- [01:09]
B
Yes.
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A
Should we do that real quick?
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B
Yeah. We were in a snowy party in Park City.
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A
Yes.
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B
And a really kind person crutched to our tree. And it was you. And we have mutual friends, which I think is always a nice way to meet somebody.
- [01:24]
A
You make it sound so romantic. I feel like we were in a snow globe or something in our imagination. We were at the Sundance Film Festival. I made the smart decision to go. Go to the slopes when no one else was there. And I ended up tearing my ACL in a ski accident. And then afterwards, at the party, I hobbled towards Alexi. There is this thing of, like, right place, right time.
- [01:44]
B
Yeah.
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A
You just were such a friend to me throughout the recovery from my acl. And you were an athlete, and you introduced me also to other athletes who had gone through injury. And you told me to listen to my body. I mean, you were amazing.
- [01:57]
B
Well, I think I was talking to my friend about how we met, and I was like, you know, a lot of times you go to these film festivals, and people are. They need something. They have a goal. Like, they need to network or they need to. Like, there's some goal. Right. And I've been thinking a lot lately about how people, if you Go into an interaction, like, with a goal. There's only certain circumstances in life where you should have a goal. Right. Like, if you're trying to run a marathon, there's a goal. If you're trying to run eight miles, there's a goal. But when you're trying to meet people, the goal should be to just be present. And I remember that party in particular. I was like, with family, friends, and I was like, I'm just gonna, like, whatever this is. Like, have fun. And you had the same kind of presence where it didn't feel like you needed anything. I felt like you were actually present. Yeah.
- [02:44]
A
We were there to celebrate. That is a great way to put it. And actually, Esther Perel and I just had this conversation because I asked her this dumb question of why is it harder to fall in love as we get older? And it seems to get harder. And you're like, you have crushes all the times in your teens and your twent, then it's kind of more rare when you're in your 30s and 40s.
- [03:01]
B
I need to listen to the episode.
- [03:02]
A
But part of what she had to say was that something happens in your 30s. You're looking for something. And so the intentionality is fighting with the passion.
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B
Right. There's that lingering need that people have as they get older.
- [03:16]
A
Yeah. But then we decided it's great to date after, like, in your older ages, like, dating in your 80s. She was a super fan of. So.
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B
Oh, interesting.
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A
Yes. How do you feel about running in your 80s? Do a lot of people do that?
- [03:27]
B
People do. I feel like I've tried to move away from the sport in a few different instances in my life. One, because I thought that I had to eventually retire was this word that I think it was really a strong word, especially in the running world. Like in the 2016, the, like, Phelps era, people retired. And I was like, when am I. Am I going to retire? And then I realized running is not a sport that you need to retire from. And there's so many different ways to be a part of it. And even when I tried, I was like, I'll play tennis now. I was like, I just, like, keep wanting to run. And so when I think about running my 80s, I think I will not have. I'll have fewer and fewer goals or needs, but I'm sure I will be moving at some pace in my 80s because I love it so much, and it is the nicest way to explore the planet for me and socialize.
- [04:22]
A
Running is. So this is the question, so why do People run. I had Neil Degrasse Tyson on this show, and he talked about how he's never seen someone smiling while they're running.
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B
All I know is that when I see people jogging, none of them are smiling, so. Whereas people in the gym, they smile.
- [04:40]
A
So why do you do it? When did you start doing it? I mean, we all did it as kids, I guess.
- [04:44]
B
Yeah. You chase boys on the playground. I literally did that. My dad put me in sports when my mom passed away when I was four. He put me in every sport because I think he saw it as the best way to teach me how to fall down and get back up without talking about it. And running was, like, the strength across these sports, like stealing bases in softball, running up and down the soccer field and basketball court. But I didn't love running until college, when I found people to enjoy it with. I find it fun fine to run alone, but I enjoy it with company. So even when I'm alone, I'm, like, listening to a podcast or audiobook or music. And so what I like about running personally is there's, like, a feeling that has nothing to do with my performance. Like, I literally have a feeling when I'm in shape that feels, like, abundant and amazing.
- [05:36]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then I like the social element. Like, I like exploring the woods with friends. And I do laugh and I do smile, but it's because I'm going a pace that's like talking pace most of the time.
- [05:47]
A
I mean, you also happen to be Greek. You were an Olympian. The history of the marathon is something fascinating. Do you know the history of the marathon? So can you tell the story of the first where the word marathon comes from?
- [05:59]
B
Oh, yeah, it's. Well, now I'm gonna mess up. Someone had to run from marathon to report about the war or something. It ended up being a marathon length and then died at the end. Exactly, which is why everyone's, like, painful. And he died. And so why are we doing this over and over again?
- [06:19]
A
That's the history.
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B
It's.
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A
In ancient Greece, some guy has to go report on a war. So he's, like, coming to say, oh, they're coming. So this guy runs 26.2 miles, gets there, and then collapses. That's the history of this term. And yet every November in New York and every month in other cities around the world, people are gathering to run these 26.2 miles.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah. I think there's so many reasons why people run. Wanting to see yourself do something that's hard but attainable. Right. Like you. If you've seen thousands of people run through New York. You think I could do that too, But I know it's harder than a 5K. I think that people need opportunities to see themselves go through a safe challenge. And I think people see the marathon as a safe, definitely, like relatively safe, definitely challenge.
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A
Even though it killed a man.
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B
Even though it killed a man.
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A
And it's also had other people have also been hurt there. But. Yeah, but they see it as a relatively safe. But part of it is that community, I guess.
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B
Yeah, I think there's probably a community element. I think when people run marathons, it feels like it's for them more than it is for a community. I think it inspires communities. But I think when someone decides I'm going to run a marathon, it's. It's usually a gift or a promise to themselves.
- [07:41]
A
It's actually, you know, for being such a running skeptic, the New York City Marathon is my absolute favorite day in New York City. I think the most beautiful thing about it for me is sure, that independent journey of all these people challenging themselves. And you see the diversity of people who are doing it. You see people who face disability, you see people who've come in from all over the world. But what I think is amazing about it is strangers cheering for strangers.
- [08:05]
B
Yeah.
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A
Which never happens really in New York. I mean, strangers cheer for sports celebrities. Dangerous for people like you, Olympians, athletes. But it's rare that there's so much compersion that people are cheering.
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B
Yeah.
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A
For absolute strangers.
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B
Well, let's talk about Earnesty then. Yeah. Because it feels like it is really adorable to. Yeah. Make that promise to yourself. I'm going to toe the line, but I'm gonna do it with these thousands of people and we all have our little plans and our gels and our. And then, yeah, we're gonna like, accept the community side of it because nobody runs a marathon thinking that they won't have that interaction with the world. Whether you're cheering or running, you're gonna collide with community. And it's a really beautiful thing to like accept that love from the world and also to give it and to be like, I'm just going to be here cheering and like give support. And I'm also, if I'm running, I'm going to accept support. That's like something we don't frequently get in our lives because you don't expect it anywhere else. Right. You're not walking down the streets in New York expecting someone to like, cheer for you getting on time.
- [09:16]
A
You do Alexi. But no one does it. So I have to run a marathon, apparently to get people to do that. No, I'm kidding. Has someone cheering ever made your run more possible?
- [09:29]
B
Yeah. Oh.
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A
Can you hear the cheer when you're running? Can you hear the cheering or are you just so zoned in?
- [09:35]
B
Yeah. Sometimes I wonder. Sometimes I can't believe that people are cheering because to me now it's expected that like, I can do this. And so I think I take for granted that there are people who are like, allowing it to still be amazing. Even though I have a high bar for myself. Like finishing a marathon is the minimum. Right?
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A
Right.
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B
So it touches me even though I may not need a chair to finish the race.
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A
Right.
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B
It feels a little extra in a way, but it has, in instances, really helped. And it does make a difference. And that's why when races that have people's name on them, it's really cute. Cause someone will be like, go Bob and go Martha. And I think where it made the biggest difference for me was when you talked about smiling during running and how, yes, most people don't. So the first race that I did on a competitive start line, but non competitively was the New York city Marathon in 2022. And I had had a post Olympic, this really big depression after the Olympics and I tore my hamstring and I'd never had an injury. And I had to have a big surgery. And I didn't tell anyone I had it because it felt really frowned upon to have an injury or a big surgery. And I was supposed to race with the elite runners and I had a contract to do it. And I knew that I was healthy by then. It was like nine months after the surgery, but I couldn't race hard.
- [11:00]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I asked the race, should I still run the race? And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, should I run with the people? And they were like, no, no, no. Start with the girls in the front. But the elite pack starts 30 minutes early. So basically I would be running alone because I'm running slower.
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A
Right.
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B
And I was like, I don't know if I can do this. It's humiliating to be an Olympian, an elite athlete running the pace of non elite athlete. And basically what I did was I couldn't run fast. And so I ended up like connecting with the crowd and dancing and wearing glitter. And I had interactions with people where I was like blowing them kisses in earnest and then receiving this love back. And it was a real interaction with the crowd that you don't get when you're running an Olympic time.
- [11:43]
A
Yes.
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B
And it was the first time that I really connected with the people and it was really powerful. And it was different than the head down laser. I'm just gonna get to the finish line as fast as possible type running.
- [11:56]
A
Right. There's a lot of talk in running about personal records, PRs, and personal bests. Was your personal best race your best race?
- [12:05]
B
Yeah, it was at the Olympics.
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A
It was.
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B
Yeah. And it was awesome. Because I'm so grateful. I think this is the thing I'm most grateful for in running. My coach, I trusted him and so I did what I was told and he peaked me. It's called, like, when you're peaking is when you are. You're as sharp as you can be. If you imagine as an athlete, you're like a pencil and you. You can only sharpen a pencil so frequently or it's gonna break. Right. If you keep sharpening it, it'll just snap. Right. And so you want the timing to be perfect.
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A
It's like the optimal point on the curve right before it starts to go down.
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B
Right before it goes down. And it doesn't last so long. Like, you can't be peaked for. For nine months of the year. You can be peaked for like a week or.
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A
But can you be peaked every year or can you only be peaked in a certain age group or peak? Because women sometimes get faster when they. As they get older.
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B
Yeah, you can peak and peak again. And peak again. It's just there's like a seasonality to it. Right.
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A
So in every season you peak.
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B
Yes, that's the goal. And you want to peak at the right time.
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A
It's like ovulation or something. It's like every month you're going to ovulate.
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B
This is fun to talk about. Yeah, yeah. And you trust a coach to, like, help bring you there at the right time.
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A
Okay.
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B
And really, this is what a lot of, like, I think people don't understand is that you never replicate the race before race day. You get the pieces of it, so you build. You want range, so you build your really intense endurance and then your speed. And the, the idea is that on race day, you have no idea how it's going to all come together. But your time, your coach has timed it perfectly and it all does come together. And your body will do exactly what your mind wants it to do. And that happened to me in Rio. And it was such a cool feeling because you. You feel that there's no resistance and you feel your body is actually Carrying you. And it's a really, really special feeling. And that's what. That's what I felt.
- [13:55]
A
That's amazing. Do you think, like, your body. How do you. What's the best metaphor for a body for you? I love hearing you talk about that alignment. I totally know. As soon as you said it, I felt it in my body, like. Yeah. There are parts of my life where I just feel like my body is at my body's best. Do you think of the body as a machine? Do you think of the body as a instrument? Like, how do you think about the body?
- [14:18]
B
That's a great question. Because there's, like, a. There's, like, a harmony that also has to do with, like, where your head's at. So it can't just be a machine. Oh, I don't know. Because sometimes I think about it as, like, a castle. And I really, like, push people to build every brick. Like, quality, meaning, don't take shortcuts. But a castle doesn't really feel.
- [14:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
So it's not really.
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A
And it doesn't really move.
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B
Yeah. And it doesn't move.
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A
It does definitely not move.
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B
Yeah. It's. I mean, it's human. I'm like, of course you're human.
- [14:53]
A
Maybe you're so embodied. Like, I think we live in a world where people are often not embodied. People are not dancing as much. We're not in our bodies as much as kind of historical generations. I was at a retreat recently. Like, the guy said, you know, you're more. More like, what's out there than what's in here. And he was pointing out to, like, trees and life, like, living organism than you are to this phone.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah. And like a plant. Like, if we're just talking about the plant. I think a plant's a cool one because it doesn't grow everything at once. And I think, like, we evolve and develop, like, one branch, and then we grow another branch. Then we grow our flower, then we grow. Like, I don't think everything happens at the same time. And I think we have an impatience that everything should. Should blossom and bloom and grow and change.
- [15:42]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know what I think people are that I think about a lot is I think that we're more verbs than nouns. And maybe that's sort of where.
- [15:50]
A
Yeah. We're being.
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B
Yeah. And we're. And we're changing.
- [15:53]
A
Yeah.
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B
And we're either gonna change consciously if we're, like, driving that change, or we're gonna adapt subconsciously, no matter what. Because to be alive is to change. And so maybe we're running or athletics comes into play is those are people that are driving their own change and they're trying to drive it towards something. And where that's beautiful is you have a goal and you're moving towards something, but where it's dangerous is forcing. It is also problematic. And maybe what I'm trying to encourage people to do is in any sport or movement is to like, try to like be an agent, like drive your ship toward that change, but also listen to what. What feels true.
- [16:37]
A
When you got to each seasonal peak, did you know it was coming right before it came? So it's like an orgasm. You know, when it happens.
- [16:46]
B
I remember feeling one day that I was like, I feel ease. Like I feel ease in something that feels hard. And so it's not like an orgasm. Well, I can't take.
- [16:59]
A
Yeah. Compare them.
- [17:00]
B
Because in an orgasm there's like an anticipation. Yeah. I think it's not that dissimilar in a way. It's just that this is such a. This is so great because. Oh my God. I'm just realizing I'm so used to like talking only about athletic stuff and being in a certain like, headspace or talking about like non athletic stuff. And you're also my. My friend.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah.
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B
So I feel like we could. It's just so funn when those things interact because I'm. I'm feeling like in real time this thing of like I'm a wholesome athlete and then I'm like. But I'm also just Alexi and I can talk about or cousins and sports.
- [17:36]
A
Does that feel good or bad? How does the body feel?
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B
It makes me feel I have work to do on myself because I want it. No, no, no. It's not bad. It's because I want to. I'm just one person. And so to let everything like a conversation. Yeah, yeah. It's like I think I had a voice in my head that was like, you shouldn't talk about orgasms when you're talking about sports. Because the sports side of you is like, this is such a. Yeah, I think it's kind of like an orgasm to peak. Because yes, I think you're starting to feel things come together. But I will say that like when you're peaking, it shouldn't feel out of control. You actually feel like total ease control and like clarity and almost like you can watch it happening while it's happening. So it's almost like the opposite.
- [18:23]
A
Yeah.
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B
At the actual peak. I guess there's an inevitability about it that feels similar.
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A
Do you feel sorry? Sorry to take you there and yet not take you there, as the case may be? Is there a difference when you're running towards something or running away from something?
- [18:39]
B
Yes.
- [18:40]
A
What is that difference for you? A little cliffhanger. We'll be right back, guys. Today's sponsor, Dumb Question is from me. I'm going to take the next minute to tell you a little bit about smart girl dumb questions and to ask you for your help in continuing to make independent, fact based and curious journalism. No, I'm not going to ask you for money. Here's what I need. I would love you to tell 10 of your friends about the show or 100, I don't know, blast that reunion group that you muted. And definitely tell your mom and tell your mom to tell her friends too. Even if you don't like the show and you're just like, hate watching it or listening to it. Tell 10 of your friends to hate watch it too. Numbers are numbers, people. Is there a difference when you're running towards something or running away from something?
- [19:23]
B
Yes.
- [19:24]
A
What is that difference for you?
- [19:26]
B
I think when people are running away from something, they're running fueled by fear, which is a very powerful fuel. Like you can want to run away from your past, some experience, your body. People want to run out of their body and be skinnier, you know, and that will take you far. But it has its limits. And I think that running towards something, especially when you're running toward a feeling or a set of values or curiosity, it is so much more buoyant. And I think where the difference is is that if you're running towards something, it kind of feels like you have a crush on something and you. There's an expansive feeling and there is like a bounciness that I think makes you more durable. And I think when you're running away from something, you're tight and you're fragile and I think you're more vulnerable. And so you might get to the same result, but you might not.
- [20:27]
A
When in your life have you been kind of running toward or running away from? Can you share that?
- [20:33]
B
Yeah, I think in retrospect I was running away from to get to the Olympics because, you know, I lost my mom young and she took her own life. So it was like I did not want to be unhappy. And I thought that to be an Olympian was to like forever be okay because it's the. It is, you can't take it away from someone. And I wanted something that could not be taken away. And I had a great time like training for it. But I think there was a bit of, like, need and fear.
- [21:07]
A
Yeah.
- [21:08]
B
And then after the Olympics, when I realized it's not gonna memorialize your eternal happiness, I crashed.
- [21:18]
A
Yeah.
- [21:19]
B
And now I feel like I'm running toward growth and abundance and I don't know where that's gonna lead.
- [21:25]
A
I wanna get to where you're running toward because you've been doing so many amazing projects and like, and really fascinating work. And I wanna hear what it's like to have that kind of beginner's. Because when we met, you had a new project in mind and including the podcast Mentor Buffet, your great podcast. And you were really excited. You were kind of electric about all of your ideas and business and beyond. But before that, I just want to do a little bit on running because can you just give us the two minute rundown on perfect running form? I do go to Mile High Run Club.
- [21:56]
B
Oh, fun.
- [21:56]
A
You know that club. And they're always like, lean forward, shoulders back, and lean forward when you run. Is this correct?
- [22:04]
B
Which.
- [22:04]
A
What is the body formulation?
- [22:06]
B
Yeah, sometimes leaning forward works. But I would say if I were to give anyone like the simplest cues to running, we're so, we're actually so forward in our lives, right. With like our screens and everything, that I would try to cue someone to, even though it might feel a little odd to. To keep their chin, to just try to tuck your chin a bit. Meaning almost you're trying to give yourself a double chin. And it doesn't mean you will. It means that you're just trying to cue yourself to not have your neck be so forward because it will help, like, align you. So I think if I were to give people two cues, it would be just occasionally check that your chin isn't completely jutting out.
- [22:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then I would just give people the cue of having their. Their chin, their toes up, actually, because.
- [22:55]
A
A lot of people, I run on my toes.
- [22:58]
B
It's fine to run on your toes. And I'm saying, like, people run on their toes, they run on their heels, they run like it's. I'm more saying like every step, give yourself a mental cue of lifting your.
- [23:08]
A
Toes to be in the air.
- [23:10]
B
To be in the air. And it's. Some of these things are not so, so literal as much as, like, this is what to keep in mind. And it will prevent you from like, over striding, which. Which hurts. Injures a lot of people.
- [23:23]
A
Yeah.
- [23:24]
B
So I think keeping your toes up. Yeah. I think those are two good cues.
- [23:27]
A
So over striding is over Striding is.
- [23:31]
B
Like reaching too far for your rest of your body's ability to keep up, and it just ends up. It's like your body trying to take a shortcut to get somewhere, but the shortcut will cause something in the rest of your body.
- [23:47]
A
And is there such a thing as under striding?
- [23:49]
B
Honestly, no. You just might not go as fast if you're taking the tiny little steps. You'll just be a really cute runner if you understride.
- [23:58]
A
It'd be like a little like. Like a child when they're, like, running.
- [24:01]
B
On their little tippy dust.
- [24:02]
A
That's sweet. Okay.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah, it's really sweet.
- [24:03]
A
I feel maybe I'm an under strider. Cute runner.
- [24:06]
B
What do you. The under strider should be the name of your run club.
- [24:09]
A
So I was gonna ask you about this. Like, this. Run clubs are the new dating app.
- [24:13]
B
That's what I've heard. Yeah.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. What do you think of that? Do you think running is a good way to meet people romantically?
- [24:20]
B
I think it probably is, but I would feel so weird if I went to a running club and I was just hoping to, like, have camaraderie and a workout and then I.
- [24:30]
A
And somebody else was. You were trying to peak in your running and the other person was trying to peak.
- [24:35]
B
Trying to peak in your orgasm.
- [24:36]
A
Yeah, exactly. That would not be good. So earlier you talked about how kind of the beauty of meeting people when you are not looking for anything, like joining a run club to date, is potentially dangerous to the run club and the person looking to date.
- [24:49]
B
I think if you happen to fall in love at a run club, that's awesome. But to go hoping to find someone and to have a goal like that I think is not the best energy to have. And the reason is because. And I've said this before, but I learned this term from J. Duplass, which is parallel play. And he says that people have the best interactions when they're, like, playing together. So, like, running is a form of playing. Walking down the street is playing all this stuff. And I think that run clubs are an opportunity to parallel play with people. So you're doing a workout, you're with them, and it's. It fosters the best conversations. If the conversation leads to a date, that's what it's leading to. But to start with, like, I'm here to find a person, feels like you're looking again for a goal over just. Just finding it.
- [25:41]
A
Okay. At what speed can you talk while running? And at what speed should you stop talking while running?
- [25:47]
B
Yeah, it's personal for everyone. But I'll give people a way to think about their running that might help them rather than think about paces. If you're going for an easy run, try to go chitchat pace. This is what my Olympic coach, who was an Olympian, used to say, which means full conversation. Like we could have this conversation while running. Okay, that's most of your runs.
- [26:09]
A
Let's give our numbers for that because for me that's probably five to six. What is it for you or five per K? Oh, you're in K. No, I'm in, I'm in miles. Oh, like I feel like for us to chitch. Like to be having this whole conversation while running. Six.
- [26:23]
B
Wait, but you're talking about how many miles?
- [26:25]
A
No, six miles per hour.
- [26:26]
B
Oh, you're talking about a treadmill pace.
- [26:29]
A
I'm talking about pace, but I don't.
- [26:30]
B
Know what miles per hour I run.
- [26:32]
A
We don't know what miles per hour you run.
- [26:34]
B
No. Wait, how do you know that?
- [26:36]
A
Because I only run on treadmills basically. Oh, well, especially after the ACL tear. Okay, okay, so you don't. So chit chat pace. Go, go back to your thing. I'm fucking.
- [26:45]
B
So maybe like eight. I don't know. I run on a treadmill so rarely.
- [26:51]
A
It's funny, I think about running as miles per hour and you think of it as how many hours it took you to run 26.2 miles.
- [26:59]
B
I think about how many minutes per mile, which is what most people will think about it.
- [27:04]
A
Oh, so for me it's a 10 minute mile. I guess I would say.
- [27:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. I'm only as your friend. Nobody has to know about this. I'm just telling you, if you ever say that again, people know that you're just a treadmill runner, which is amazing, but they won't, they might not invite you to their run club.
- [27:19]
A
And then I won't meet anyone. And then you won't meet anyone. Forever single.
- [27:22]
B
Yes. So you really, you didn't need to have that conversation earlier. This is really the root of what's going on with you is that you're just introducing yourself wrong. Okay, so chit chat pace is full conversation pace.
- [27:33]
A
Okay, Say how many minutes for you. What minute mile for you.
- [27:36]
B
It would be like between 7 and 8:30 pace for me. Really? Like feels pretty good. Can have full conversations.
- [27:44]
A
Okay, so that's like 10ish for me.
- [27:45]
B
Okay, perfect, perfect, perfect.
- [27:47]
A
10 to 12. Yeah.
- [27:48]
B
And then chat pace is like, you can get in words like I could be like, what do you want for lunch. And you'd be like, I don't know, like pizza. What about you? But you wouldn't be like, oh, I went to this restaurant last week. Like that's chit chatting. Right? Okay, so chat pace, less conversation.
- [28:04]
A
Yes.
- [28:04]
B
And for me that's like maybe 6:30 to 7.
- [28:08]
A
And for me that's probably like an 8 minute pace. I'm doing it reverse math. Maybe a 9 minute pace. I don't know.
- [28:14]
B
That's great.
- [28:14]
A
Okay. I feel like whatever I said you're gonna be like, it's great. If I were like a 23 minute pace, you'd be like, that's excellent, Naima, that's.
- [28:20]
B
Cause that's where you are.
- [28:21]
A
I know I'm gonna always meet you where you are. I know you're the best.
- [28:25]
B
And I think those are the two. I mean you can go slower, you can go faster, but that's like for people doing most of their running, they don't. That's the range they're going to be in. And I'm trying to share this because the numbers will change, but the feeling should be something that you're familiar with. So as you get in better shape, your chit chat pace is going to get faster.
- [28:48]
A
We talked about this right before because we talked about peeing when you run. It happens to people. Happens to women, especially after they've had kids. They talk about this happening more. What's going on?
- [28:59]
B
My friends who have had kids have a lot of problems, I think with that because their pelvic floor is so weak. Right, right. And like everything has to like rebuild. I pee in my pants during races because it doesn't make any sense to hold it in. And I'm drinking a lot of water and it just like flies off and evaporates.
- [29:21]
A
Do you wear special underwear for that or no?
- [29:24]
B
No.
- [29:24]
A
Yeah. This is like sweat wicket.
- [29:26]
B
I mean. Yeah, it just like falls off. It doesn't bother me at all. And I don't want to waste energy holding pee in or like think about it. If I'm racing, if I'm running on a trail, I'll pee in the woods.
- [29:38]
A
I love this. This is what comes back to my sense of you as somebody who's extremely embodied and just like lives naturally according to what's happening, what you're feeling. And yeah. I think of you as like just having this very clear compass.
- [29:53]
B
Yeah. And it's like. And there's like no shame in having to pee and then just navigating. Like what's the like most reasonable thing I can do here that isn't illegal.
- [30:06]
A
So you have a couple of other projects that you're working on these days. I mean, you've had an amazing book called Bravy. Do you want to just quickly talk about what inspired you to write?
- [30:17]
B
Yeah. Bravy is a memoir in essays, and it's a lot about mental health and seeing the body and the mind kind of in one place. But it was. It was like my journey to the Olympics and then navigating all this mental health like, you know, shrapnel from my childhood, but finding what it is to. To be in the world as a. As a creature like me and just, like, chase big dreams. And I think befriending pain, and I think pain is a big one that I talk about. And that book has a foreword by Maya Rudolph, and I had a ton of fun writing it. And then now I'm writing another book with the same team, and it's about change.
- [31:07]
A
I love that. I can't wait to read it. I think I said, I think Bravy is a very brave book to write because you took the pain of something that happened to you experience. You had very young of losing your mother. As you said, she took her own life, and you put that forward as a gift to other people to help. I mean, I think it really helps people navigate their pain. Do you have a sense of, like, how proud your mother would be of you?
- [31:34]
B
Yeah, I think what she would appreciate is that I'm still mischievous. Like, I'm still human. I'm gonna fall down. But I think just to put words to something that is so hard to understand, I think she would be really proud because I don't think she got the proper help. Like, I really don't think she had to die. I think some people say, you know, someone is so sad that they have to go. But I think there's always a way to try to navigate and help. And I think a lot of it comes from being able to understand it better. And so if I. If the book gives her. If she's read it, like, a better understanding of herself so that she could feel kind to herself, because I'm sure she's really mad, that's a really. That would be an awesome, like, connection to have with her.
- [32:25]
A
That's beautiful. I feel like there's. That's where we should end that. I mean, there's a bit of an odd pivot.
- [32:30]
B
Okay, I have to ask my question.
- [32:32]
A
Yeah. So there's a bit of an argument, which is.
- [32:34]
B
No, I love this.
- [32:35]
A
From peeing to the pride of your mother, who I also hope is reading your book and finding a balm in it, as so many people do. Like, this whole show is about curiosity. We're running towards something, I guess, which is curiosity here on the show. And I end every episode of Smart Girl dumb questions. Asking my guests, what are they talking about? What's a question that you have that you haven't yet found the answer to? That maybe we can help.
- [32:58]
B
Yeah. I was hoping you could help me with a question about why I love the mossy woods, particularly in Oregon so much. So my specific question is, are human? Because, you know, people feel drawn to certain types of nature. Like, I. Some people love the desert. You love water. And what I'm wondering is, what's, like, the science behind it? Is it a part nature, part nurture? Why do I, like, love the mossy woods so much? And where does that come from? Can I control it? And. Yeah, I just want to understand that.
- [33:36]
A
I love that. Why are some people beach people and some people mossy?
- [33:40]
B
Yeah.
- [33:40]
A
Woods people. And were you that from the moment you were born?
- [33:44]
B
Yeah. Is it genetics?
- [33:45]
A
Is it biology? Or is it.
- [33:46]
B
Yeah. I'm so curious because I think this question affects a lot of people about, like, where they feel comfortable living.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah.
- [33:53]
B
Who they connect with and, like, what they long for when they, like, want to go somewhere.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah.
- [33:59]
B
And so I'm wondering, like. Yeah. How much of it is, like, conditioned? How much can evolve and where it comes from?
- [34:06]
A
I love it. All right. We're gonna find that out. And I have found out like, that maybe I should try to run more. And we can chit chat. When running.
- [34:13]
B
I think the barrier feels so big. It's like, just go chit chat pace, and don't go faster than that so that you actually can enjoy the periphery. Just try it this other way. And then let's talk.
- [34:25]
A
Okay.
- [34:25]
B
And then hopefully we'll go on a run together someday.
- [34:28]
A
I hope so. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. If you're listening or watching, you should find Alexi Alexipas online. You can get her book Bravy. Get her second book, which is coming out about change. And you can check out her awesome podcast. It's called Mentor Buffet. And maybe I'll see you there. Sorry this was so quick, but you had to run. I love this outfit, by the way.
- [34:47]
B
Thank you. It's my Merrell. It's my Merrell custom New York Fashion Week outfit.
- [34:52]
A
I love it. Are you gonna wear it while running?
- [34:55]
B
Yeah, I'm gonna run. Well, there's A.
- [34:57]
A
Is it aerodynamic?
- [34:58]
B
There's. The skirt comes off, and then it's just a leotard.
- [35:02]
A
Can you show us when we get up?
- [35:03]
B
Very. Yes.
- [35:04]
A
Okay.
- [35:04]
B
So the skirt.
- [35:05]
A
Yes.
- [35:05]
B
Is hooked by boa. And then you unhook it, and then you're ready to run.
- [35:10]
A
That's it. Oh, my God, I love it right off camera. All right. And then you can take the skirt. I can. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really love that conversation with Alexi. Not just because we talked about orgasms, which I know something about, and running, which I don't, but also because I find her so vulnerable, so honest and so thoughtful about our bodies, our minds, how that all connects and how we live, and just such a joyous person to be around. I honestly think Alexi Pappas is like a fairy. She wears glitter. She wears this awesome skirt thing. She runs around the world, and she makes everything a little bit better. You can keep spending time with her on her podcast Mentor Buffet, by reading her book Bravy, and her new book that's about to come out, and by following her on Social Lexipapas. And by the way, a couple episodes ago, Diplo and I also talked about Alexi and about run clubs.
- [36:03]
C
It's towards the end of the year, I have to do all these run clubs and promo and stuff, so.
- [36:06]
A
And then you got super into health. You started this run club, like, a couple years back, or.
- [36:10]
C
I started it. The run club I started last year was the first one we did where we publicly, like, said, hey, I'm on a DJ party. You want to buy a bib? You want to come run with me? And we did two cities to San Francisco and Seattle, and it was a huge success.
- [36:24]
B
Yeah.
- [36:24]
C
And this year, we're doing eight.
- [36:26]
A
And you ran the 2023 LA Marathon with our mutual friend Alexi Pappas.
- [36:30]
C
Yeah, I love her. She actually gave me some good running advice. I think I'm just naturally. I've kind of. If you kind of figure out running, like, your technique as it just your body does kind of does it normal because you have to do such a long time. But Alexi talks a lot when she runs.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah, it's like crazy.
- [36:45]
C
I had my headphones in the first marathon. I was like, oh, that's gonna run me. I was like, put the headphones in. Listen to some vibes. She's like, so, what's up with your dad?
- [36:50]
B
How's he doing?
- [36:51]
C
And I was like, you know, he's cool. Put him back in. She's like, oh, that's really cool. You know what's the favorite?
- [36:56]
A
I was like, so you ran that with zero preparation. And she was very curious. I mean you probably talked about this, but how your experience is an endurance musician.
- [37:05]
C
Yeah.
- [37:06]
A
Makes you an endurance athlete if it does.
- [37:09]
C
I mean some DJ sets, they're usually like three to four hours but sometimes they go 12. Some people do 24 hour sets. So that is hardcore that there are drugs involved in those sets. I've never done, I've done like 10 or 12 hours like twice. And the hardest thing is just not to pee on yourself. And but you do like leave after a while, put a long song on.
- [37:30]
A
If that piqued your interest. And yes, the pun is intended. Check out the full conversation with Diplo. He's a prolific Grammy Award winning musical artist and DJ turned runner. Or you can check out the conversations with Esther Perel or Neil Degrasse Tyson. That's it for this week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. Today's show was produced with Annalisa Cochran and Desta Wonderad at Wonder Studios. It was edited by Darlena Chiem and engineered and mixed by Johnny Simon. Our theme music is by David Khan and I'm your host Naima Raza. Be sure to hit follow or subscribe so you can tune in next time for more Smart Girl Dumb Questions. If you like the show, review us. If you don't like the show, I guess you can also review us. But that's kind of mean. So why don't you instead share it with someone who will like the show. Also, if you don't like the show and you made it this far, I like really applaud you.
- [38:15]
D
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- [38:43]
E
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