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- [00:00]
A
This is Smart Girl, Dumb questions. I'm Naima Raza, and today my guest is a renowned psychotherapist. Thankfully not my own. We're sitting on chairs, not couches, here. Esther Perel, thank you so much for being here.
- [00:10]
B
Pleasure to be here.
- [00:11]
A
For those of you not familiar with Esther's work, she's written two international bestsellers. She's given TED talks that have been viewed over 50 million times. She's a keen observer of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our love lives, but at work, in all the ways that we relate to one another. I think you're really an expert on.
- [00:26]
B
Humans, on what humans do to each other, experience with each other. And long from each other.
- [00:33]
A
And long from each other. I want to know what you long for. We're going to get there. She also has an amazing podcast called Where Should We Begin? Which takes you into these very intimate conversations.
- [00:42]
B
Actually, the podcast is an exploration of what happens in the dynamics and the relationships between people.
- [00:50]
A
I have so many questions for you, including how those sessions and experience experiencing other people's relationship trauma or stories changes your story. I have questions for you about why is it harder to fall in love as time goes on? I can't tell if it's age or if it's this modern life or there's something about me. And I also want to start, though, with something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time we met, because we're also friends, Esther and I. I.
- [01:15]
B
Have an image of us walking out of a building on the street and. But what were we doing in that building?
- [01:21]
A
Was that the Spotify building?
- [01:23]
B
Yes, but what were we doing there?
- [01:25]
A
We were chatting and we were chatting off the record, and yet I wanted to play some tape from it today. Is that okay?
- [01:31]
B
Oh, wow. Of the record that you recorded me.
- [01:34]
A
Well, I remember I asked you for your permission, but it was for my own notes. It was for my own notes.
- [01:38]
B
Go ahead.
- [01:38]
A
And I kept it. And if it's okay, I'll play it for you.
- [01:41]
B
And if you don't like it, my curiosity is odd.
- [01:43]
A
I know that's. This is the whole point of the show. I have to say. Asier is also a dear friend who helped me start the show and gave me a lot of encouragement in this process. So I'm so grateful.
- [01:53]
B
As it should be.
- [01:54]
A
Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. Okay, so this is a excerpt of part of our conversation.
- [02:02]
B
We are wanting something that is at the opposite of where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation that has been moving. And so you are super rich and fascinating and fucked up because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist, but you are constantly translating between different value systems. Whereas your mother, she knew what was expected from her as a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter, and as a pious kid. The rules was clear. The rules weren't clear. The norms are clear, the expectations are clear. There's a lot of certainty here, very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom here and very little certainty. Because everything now has to be negotiated, right? Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.
- [03:00]
A
Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What do you think hearing that?
- [03:05]
B
I still think like that. I think that one of the most interesting shifts that has taken place in the realm of relationships is the shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation, by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by feelings rather than values and by personal authenticity rather than loyalty. And I think that the majority of the world is still living with the first model, but there are so many people on this planet, you are one of them who are constantly straddling both. And the reason I said to you all of this, it's all coming back.
- [03:50]
A
The reason you told me I'm fucked up.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah, I said. I mean, confused is probably better.
- [03:55]
A
No, it's great.
- [03:56]
B
It's rich. It's very layered. It's because that same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father. And I said, how much do you live between these two worlds? You know, the world where you had very little freedom like mom and very little personal expression, but a lot of clarity and certainty. And the world where you have a ton of freedom, but you are often ridden with self doubt and with uncertainty, as we are today here in the west, especially when it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know that one is better than the other. I think that one knows exactly where one is in relation, which is the system that guides me in response to a particular question.
- [04:45]
A
So I love that and I love that you still think this way because this was seven years ago in 2018, when we first met. And it was such a memorable experience for me. We left there and then we went on a subway and we started talking about a trip that you had upcoming. But I just really liked, I was like, here's Esther Perel. This, you know, you were really on up at that time as well. I think your career was like, you still Are. But that was like you were taking off in a way and not. It was the first year, yeah, first year of that takeoff. And I thought, I really appreciate. I was like, oh, she basically diagnosed me. But she also diagnosed a lot of our society because it isn't just about international and cultural. It's about the way in which the role of a woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us? Has this idea of this changing role of women in some way put us in this tension between what this old world and this new world and in this constant sense of negotiation and self doubt?
- [05:50]
B
I absolutely wouldn't say that it has fucked us up. I think that that's not the way I think. I think it's an extremely important movement in the history of people, of humankind for men and women and everybody included. But I do think that change happens in multiple phases. You can make a declaration, you can change the law, you can open doors. But what follows in terms of the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation. Every time I want to be critical of feminism, I only have to think about, about the places where women have zero voice or power or protection. I have to think about my own grandmother who, you know, the gap between where she was and where I am. I have to think even with my mother and how she was a full time working person. We lived above the store, so I saw her working morning and night. The store was open some days till 9 o'. Clock. She came upstairs, she cooked her two meals made from scratch. And there was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that, is there a different way? Is there a way that she didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she was carrying? And then came the next generation which began to say, if I do all these things, you partner, you should do those things too. And then came my generation, which is basically the designer generation. I get to design my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want. You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is not an easy thing to come by. And certainly not in your 20s, right? So when you say what's changed? You know, in the 60s, 80% of people in their 20s in the United States were married. Today in 20% of people in their 20s are married.
- [07:56]
A
I don't even think 80% of people in their 30s are married.
- [07:59]
B
But that means that, that, you know, our parents generation saw marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you and together we build the foundation of our life.
- [08:10]
A
Right?
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B
We have developed the capstone experience of marriage. Marriage or committed relationships, it doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed, I've already built myself, I'm already on a certain track. I have an idea of what I want, where I stand in the world. And you come as a confirmation of who I am. You come to help me preserve my hard won identity.
- [08:32]
A
Yeah. And so much of our culture is like self help, self love, self care.
- [08:36]
B
A bit too much self in front of every word, I would say.
- [08:38]
A
Yes. What word would you put there instead of self?
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B
Other.
- [08:42]
A
Other, Others.
- [08:43]
B
You know, I think that the over index, the overemphasis on the self, at a detriment of our ability to actually think about others is, is not necessarily helping us at this point.
- [08:58]
A
Right. I see this shift you're talking about from the other to herself. And I think about it a lot, especially because of my cultural roots. And as you said, I went to visit my father and after my father passed away, I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives, doesn't just take, it gives a lot. But I also think that there's this.
- [09:15]
B
Real nostalgia and I think that we need more people in that sense, like you. You know, it's very natural for you to write that piece, but in fact it's not a natural piece for others who you to read. And it puts them in front of another dimension. You know, obligation is not hot at this moment. It's not popular.
- [09:37]
A
Right.
- [09:38]
B
Authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more, you know, and we will forego our relationships at this moment in order to preserve this authenticity. And what you're saying is a relational model, which I think we could really use hearing a lot more about, because it directly connects to everything else people want to discuss about loneliness.
- [10:03]
A
Right.
- [10:04]
B
Except these things are connected.
- [10:06]
A
Except I think like you said, like you diagnosed the first time we met, it's extremely challenging because I have this other orientation. I want to be, you know, dutiful and I want to in many ways model parts of what my mother has done. But I also have this real tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized person in this world with a lot of freedom, a lot of choice. So that's why I asked the question, did feminism fuck us? I ask it partly rhetorically, in a way that women. But I also think there's this changing role of women that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and really dealt with as a society. For what you're saying it's going to be multigenerational for it to be absorbed.
- [10:51]
B
Correct. It needs to metabolize. But I think if you're asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles, you know, I mean, you. I came to hear you do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity.
- [11:09]
A
Yes. At the Comedy Center.
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B
You know, what was at. At a comedy seller. Right. And the interesting thing is that the person started to talk by talking about the women's revolution, and that that revolution actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it had actually changed the lives of men. And it gave birth to a very, very important development, which is the making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge. But we don't talk about that in terms of the revolution, you know, the men's movement. We just. We've decided that the women had a revolution and the men have not had it yet. But we do know.
- [11:46]
A
Do you think they've had it? Have men had a revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution, but for men?
- [11:50]
B
I think that women have had about 50, 60 years of examining their lives and their position in this world and. And their aspirations and rights and narratives. And I think that men have not had it in as systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not. And I think that in that sen. The restrictions are much stronger on the men.
- [12:14]
A
Does there need to be a masculinity revolution?
- [12:17]
B
I don't think of it as a revolution. I think that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities, set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives and roles. What's wrong? I mean, it's kind of an obvious thing. Why wouldn't we. And I think that it would change the lives of many. But that's a point of view, right?
- [12:46]
A
Right.
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B
Is status quo something that must be preserved, or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms?
- [12:55]
A
Well, right now it seems like we're in a moment of, like, reckoning with social norms, because, I mean, I'm sure you've read a lot about the tradwife revolution or the kind of interest in.
- [13:02]
B
It's not a revolution.
- [13:04]
A
Yes. Okay. The tradwife trend. Yes, the tradwife trend.
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B
Yes.
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A
The. The kind of women looking for a guy in finance, 6, 5, et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as, like, are these extremely nostalgic? Are they reactions to our time? How do you make sense of these gender role, like, reassertions every time you.
- [13:25]
B
Go to see an exhibit on degenerate art?
- [13:30]
A
Every. Every Tuesday? For me, yes.
- [13:33]
B
I mean, there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get a sense as to what was considered dege. And one of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender roles that become more fluid. And what was considered degenerate was a kind of a blurring between fiction and reality. And what was considered more fluid, you know, so the opposite of that is that you then look at what was the art that was actually revered. And it was a table of people around, you know, all impeccably dressed with the woman who is serving the whole clan of the family and who finds meaning in that subservience. There is order, there is clarity of roles, there is hierarchy of gender. And that is extremely comforting. So I don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism anywhere in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles. Because if you redefine the role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men.
- [14:41]
A
Right.
- [14:42]
B
They are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without a counterpart. She's always accompanied by.
- [14:49]
A
That makes it sound like it's something that's happening. But I think women are lusting for something. I think there's a sense of like, I kind of think they may participate.
- [14:56]
B
In this the same. You know, it's not that it is imposed on them, but it is related to a recreation of a certain social order that is broader than just gender. And it comes with authoritarianism. Autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality. I had a conversation with Yuval Harari and I will never forget the first question he asked me is why does every authoritarian regime come with an instant repression around sexuality? It's messy. And authoritarianism doesn't like messy. Blurred lines, blurred roles. And all of that trad wipes is very clear. You know, you've defined it to me, the way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's. She's.
- [15:41]
A
You can picture it with the wall.
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B
You know, the whole. And that art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at it historically because it brought a sense of structure, order.
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A
Right.
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B
Everyone knows their place.
- [15:56]
A
Isn't it also like a bit what you said? What is considered degenerate at the time is. Is like in opposition to whatever.
- [16:01]
B
But the dege is always considered the same thing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The blurring is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is degenerate. The blurring of hierarchy is degenerate.
- [16:10]
A
So it's not like this. Could it's not like trad wives are degenerate because they're pushing against the current generation. It's always generate.
- [16:15]
B
No, what is considered not okay is kids who think that they have too much importance rather than they are little ones that are very nicely obedient and dressed and stand by you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes their kids would stand like that, nicely next to them. Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for others to move them.
- [16:37]
A
Right. To control the system. So there's also this other narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you watch the, you watched the movie Materialists?
- [16:45]
B
Yes.
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A
Okay, what did you think of the Materialists as a concept? The, the relationship, not the film, but the idea for those.
- [16:53]
B
That it's all in the math.
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A
Yeah, it's all a transaction.
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B
It's all in the math, yes.
- [16:57]
A
You agree that that's how our culture looks at it?
- [17:00]
B
I think that there is something about that in our culture, yes. I think this is consumerism marrying romanticism, becoming romantic consumerism.
- [17:11]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [17:12]
B
It's, it's, you know, it's emotional capitalism.
- [17:15]
A
So the idea, I mean, the way the film, for people who haven't seen it came out. He's a 10, he's a 10, he's.
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B
A unicorn, she's a six.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah, exactly.
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B
I mean, it's just amazing.
- [17:25]
A
Everyone has a number. And then to promote the film, they put a stock price ticker literally at the, you know, the New York Stock Exchange that had men and their height and, and their salaries, and they were running them up and down as if it was a commodities exchange.
- [17:38]
B
It is terrible.
- [17:40]
A
Do you think, do you think that sex has become commoditized these days or not? Sex, the act of sex, but relationship has become commoditized, consumerized, you say? And then.
- [17:52]
B
Yes, I do.
- [17:52]
A
And who is the commodity these days? Is it people? Men? Is it more women? Everybody.
- [17:57]
B
Everybody. People are the commodity. I mean, you know, the concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover. Right. Because what happens is that on the one hand, you have all these psychological terms that have entered the business world. And we talk about psychological safety and we talk about authenticity and we talk about vulnerability. But on the other hand, you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love. You know, and we're going to hedge our bets and we're going to negotiate the best deals and we. And it's. And in the midst of that, we're going to somehow find love. But we are bringing in an enormously transactional what will satisfy me? What is on my list? What am I looking for? And when I don't like it, I dump. I ghost, I follow. I go on to the next and I swipe. And these disembodied experiences make you forget that there's actually a human being on the other side.
- [18:52]
A
And soon maybe there won't be a human being. People are having romantic relationships with their AIs now. They may, yes. Would you, all things equal, rather date in 1985 or 2025?
- [19:03]
B
Oh, 85.
- [19:05]
A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
Why?
- [19:07]
A
Yeah, tell me why. I'm like, why? I didn't expect you necessarily to say that.
- [19:11]
B
Because I think that in 85 we were less. We were not yet socially atrophied. We still did not live with a stranger danger. We still were willing to talk to people in queue, on the street, on a plane. We were not enclosed in a cubicle with a screen in front of us. So God forbid we would meet someone and have an interesting chat for six hours that flew by like that. We were still more available to serendipity and to mystery and the unknown and exploration. And we were maybe less helped by platforms that give us access to a number of people that we would otherwise not have met. But our imagination was a lot more active.
- [19:57]
A
Okay, what about 1955 and 2025? Now, you, of course, were not around in 1955, but you are, you know, you were a student of all things history when it comes to relationships. So, you know.
- [20:07]
B
No, I'll tell you why. Well, you said 85, so I'll tell you.
- [20:13]
A
No, I'll say 50.
- [20:13]
B
I know, but before that you said 85.
- [20:15]
A
I know, but I want you to answer.
- [20:18]
B
I will go to 55. But the reason 85 was special. And it's not 85, it's actually slightly before 85. It goes kind of till AIDS. There was a generation which is really my generation that lived with the pill and before AIDS. And that was a period of 10 years, 15 years where we had a level of freedom and carelessness and not carelessness, carefreeness that I don't think existed ever afterwards or before. So 55 is pre contraception. That is a whole different story. 55 is pre. No fool divorce. That's a whole other thing. 55 women are still pretty much not able to have their own bank account and go to the bank without having to accompany having their husband accompanied them. That's a whole other thing. So, no, I don't want to date in 55.
- [21:10]
A
Okay, so you're going to take 85, then 25.
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B
68 to 82.
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A
68 to 82. Well, you were right in the sweet spot. That's when you were dating and you got married. You're now celebrating 40 years.
- [21:22]
B
I just did. Yeah.
- [21:22]
A
Marriage, yes. And yet every time someone congratulates you on the length of your marriage, I see you say, don't. That's, that's not, that's not a marker, that's not a hallmark of success.
- [21:31]
B
That's correct. Because I think that, I mean, it's nice, but I do think that people really do equate success with longevity. And man, for most of history, people had longevity. That did not necessarily mean success. They just didn't have an option. You know, marriage was a one time enterprise with no exit. You didn't like it. You could kind of, as I like to say, hope for an early death of your partner. That was the way out. So I think it's nice that things last. But that doesn't tell you anything on the quality of the experience, on the actual lived experience of the people. And we live twice as long.
- [22:09]
A
Yes. I want to talk about this. This is, I think, very interesting and different ground for you and me to talk about this idea of longevity and relationships. There's a lot of talk about longevity in our culture.
- [22:20]
B
Yeah, but it means something else than the length of a relationship. It means lifespan.
- [22:24]
A
Lifespan.
- [22:24]
B
Yeah.
- [22:25]
A
But what's interesting is, did you see that Harvard, you know that Harvard study, that famous Harvard study of men, over 80 years of data and they showed they took everything, they took saliva samples, they took blood tests, they took brain MRIs, they visited these men in their homes and they found over time that one of the leading indicators of healthiness and happiness, the prime indicator, the primary.
- [22:45]
B
Indicator, is the quality of their relationships.
- [22:48]
A
Of their relationships.
- [22:49]
B
Yes. Which is, you know, I mean, everything I've done is based on the sentence that the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life. I, I think it's great to have all the research and the data to support this. I kind of think we know it and we have known it and cultures have known it. That collective resilience and drawing on the connection that we have with others is our prime life force.
- [23:16]
A
So it makes like having a relationship seem even more important.
- [23:19]
B
But not just romantic relationships.
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A
I know. And I have a lot of relationships in my life and I. And you always remind me of that. I remember I was in a long distance relationship and you're like, well, this is good for you. You have such a rich life. Maybe this Is better. It's like. But I think that as we think about longevity, it's often a selfish exercise. How long can I live? Sometimes it's for other people and you want to be present for your children and grandchildren, which is a beautiful thing. But there's a lot of like my body and how am I going to make my body.
- [23:44]
B
This is kind of lifespan and health span.
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A
Health span.
- [23:47]
B
But it is often an individualistic focus. Right. It's I'm going to hack, I'm going to measure, I'm going to optimize, I'm going to maximize, you know, and I'm going to fight mortality.
- [23:56]
A
And how fun that like the thing that actually drives it is this communal experience that the opposite of this individualistic trend?
- [24:03]
B
I believe so, yes. And so does the Harvard study, which is groundbreaking. It's one of the only one of its kind.
- [24:11]
A
And yet. And as you pointed out, sometimes longevity, like, you know, sometimes bad relationship can be actually really bad for your health, really bad for your. As they found in the study, bad relationships are not good for your correct health and your life.
- [24:24]
B
Stress, caretaking duties, economic pressures have a direct impact not just on your mental health, but on your physical health. Absolutely.
- [24:34]
A
Do you think there's also something related to age and our ability to fall in love? Because I think about this a lot. When I was in my teens, I would have a crush probably every month, at least, if not every week. I mean, I remember being in middle school and like master locking my belt loop to Luke McLean Hudson's because we were like, you know, I always like, loved him. And we were watching some something on television and we decided that we would do this. It was like an insane thing to do when you're a child. I would go on trains and meet somebody and say, that was my best friend. And as you grow up in your 20s, I still think you have a lot of crushes. Now I think you enter your 30s, it's very hard to feel that.
- [25:14]
B
So what do you think changes?
- [25:15]
A
I'm asking. Yeah, I have no idea. I have ideas, but I don't know.
- [25:20]
B
I don't know that I could say. I know. I could say that we are more connected to the imaginary world when we are children. We play differently. We can imagine being different characters, but that same freedom of imagination enables us to have crushes.
- [25:40]
A
Maybe it's that word you said, also the carefree that you used in that experience of that time, a very different context.
- [25:46]
B
The world of imagination is carefree. It's carefree.
- [25:49]
A
Exactly.
- [25:50]
B
So when you are Older, you are more grounded in reality, and in effect, you have a harder time lifting yourself into, you know, and projecting yourself just like that, because your other side of your brain, your prefrontal cortex, brings you right back, you know, and reminds you of reality. There.
- [26:10]
A
There have been studies of people looking at, you know, love as a brain evolution or is. There's parts of our. There's parts of our development, and you will know this better than I do. When is the. When is your mind fully developed? It's like in your late.
- [26:24]
B
The fontanelle closes it. They say around 25.
- [26:27]
A
Yeah.
- [26:27]
B
Especially for boys. It's later than for girls.
- [26:30]
A
So I wonder if this is part of it, like, if, like, actually your mind limits itself.
- [26:34]
B
But you can. There is definitely a connection between your brain, your hormones, your oxytocin, your testosterone, your vasopressins, all the things that are connected neurologically with passion. But. But people have passions. People can have. Because falling in love is passion, right? Right. It's not the same as loving.
- [26:56]
A
No. Yeah. Falling in love.
- [26:58]
B
Falling in love.
- [26:58]
A
Crushing.
- [26:59]
B
Okay, so crushing is a kind of a surrender, right? It's a letting go. It's a propelling oneself into a plot, into a story, lifting yourself from the mundane, from the ordinary life, the reality that you are in. And. And there is less of that when you are young, and there is still more of the malleability of being shaped by others. When you are in your 30s, you kind of sit in front of the person, and part of you is fantasizing, and the other part of you is rationalizing. And these two are in conversations with each other on the spot, and they get.
- [27:37]
A
So in your 30s, it's very hard to have a crush. And part of it is this. You're on a date between your rationality in your dream.
- [27:44]
B
Because when you are in your 30s, you're not just looking for a crush. You're wanting a crush for a partner with whom you want to have a life. And so you're not having the crush, because if you just had the crush, then you wouldn't be thinking about a life story. You would just be thinking about a love story.
- [28:02]
A
I think about this all the time. It's so hard to cross.
- [28:05]
B
But you're sitting there and you're saying, you know, is this a person I could build a life with? While you're having that rational thinking, the crush doesn't concern itself with the life story. The crush is just a love story. You are assessing the life story while you are hoping at the same time to feel the Butterflies in your stomach. And that I think is what makes us actually more reasonable and less willing to just kind of, you know, drop everything and move around the world to meet somebody else who we met 24 hours, etc. Etc. On the other end, it makes us then often experience much less crushes.
- [28:44]
A
Yeah. Why are crushes so hard? Did you have a crush on your husband when you guys first met or did he have a crush on you?
- [28:50]
B
Actually, no, we didn't start with a crush. We started. We had. We were very, very close friends for two years, which was the first time that I went the other way around. I had had many boyfriends who became very good friends and are still today. I never had a good friend who became a boyfriend.
- [29:08]
A
I remember one time I had a crush on a friend and you gave me a tip of what to say.
- [29:12]
B
What did I say?
- [29:13]
A
You said you should ask him. Have you ever been curious about us exploring more than a friendship?
- [29:17]
B
Uh huh. That's right. That's right. And he wasn't.
- [29:20]
A
And he was. And we did. And it didn't work out. But curiosity killed the cat.
- [29:27]
B
Curiosity takes you in both directions. But this thing, a crush is a love story, or not even love story, but it's a plot of a certain kind.
- [29:35]
A
Right.
- [29:36]
B
You know, a crush is a fantasy. A crush doesn't ground you in reality. It doesn't demand any accountability. It just demands being lifted up in a great story. You will have less crushes because you're looking for something else.
- [29:50]
A
And the challenge of the crush is not just a challenge of your 30s. It's hard to have crushes in your 40s and your 50s. But then I think it becomes easier for people. I used to volunteer at a nursing home and I used to see people in their 60s and 70s have crushes on each other like teenagers. So this is also another part of our mystery to solve. Like why is it harder to fall in love as you get older? I think there's almost a kind of inverted V shape.
- [30:16]
B
A crush is a mini plot.
- [30:18]
A
And so does that happen again in your 60s, 70s, 80s, when you're free again? Yeah, when you're free again, you're free again.
- [30:23]
B
You're not busy. That project of family making with the intense years of in between for those who want to. That it's not for everyone that wants it is. Takes you on a different track.
- [30:37]
A
Yes.
- [30:38]
B
And that's why you have less crushes.
- [30:41]
A
We talked about dating in the 80s. What do you think about dating in your 80s? Do you have any thoughts on that?
- [30:47]
B
I think it's a wonderful thing. I mean, for so long in history, the trajectory was fairly linear. And if at 25 or 22 or 18, whatever the culture you were in, you did not marry, you were in the category of spinster or bachelor, you know, maybe when there was a widow, you could be inserted into the trajectory that you hadn't been on. What we have today because of longevity, because of divorce, because many of us will have two or three marriages or adult committed relationships in our lives. You can start for the first time at 60, you can start having. Maybe you didn't have your own children, but you have grandchildren, children. Maybe you didn't. I mean, this has provided a level of generativity.
- [31:38]
A
Right.
- [31:39]
B
That I think is really new in the history and quite special.
- [31:44]
A
Yeah. And there's Viagra.
- [31:46]
B
So what?
- [31:46]
A
Which is also an option, also continues your sexual. Sexual life at that age.
- [31:52]
B
Yes. That's. If you define sexuality by whatever happens to your penis. Yes, but there's more to sex than that. Especially in your 80s. Yes. Or 60s, for that matter.
- [32:03]
A
Hang tight for a second. We'll be right back. Your parents are Holocaust survivors.
- [32:08]
B
Yeah.
- [32:09]
A
And you talk a lot about aliveness in your work. This idea of eroticism, you don't just see as sex and what happens to a penis or whatever it is. You see it as aliveness, the opposite of death. And you talk about how people really fell into two groups around this time of the Holocaust. There are those who didn't die and those who came back to life.
- [32:31]
B
But I think it's true that I first observed that in the community that I grew up, which was a community of only survivors of the Holocaust. And my parents were the only two people of their entire family that survived. But I think that this applies to many communities. This applies to many different types of trauma, this being the distinction between not being dead and being alive. For whom does adversity become a source of a drive, of an erotic charge, of a quest for aliveness and vibrancy and vitality? And for whom does it actually shut them down? That's the mystery question.
- [33:18]
A
And that I think is also related to. I mean, I'm not drawing an analogy here, but I do think that the. I wondered if you think. I think that the same is true of love, where some people stop risking falling in love, being in love, and some people are continuously willing to put themselves back, bring themselves back into that sense of aliveness. Because the older you get, the more relationship experience you have, the more hurt you have also. Perhaps.
- [33:44]
B
Yes. But I think As a whole, love is vulnerable, sex is vulnerable. We live in an era where we may have had more safety than many generations before, but we are obsessed with safety and we are not taking money and we are constantly calibrating our risk taking. We also have, you know, a ton of predictive technologies that are helping us being less and less risky because they give us many answers. So we are less practiced in the risks of connection, of conflict, of disagreement. You know, that's different from the. So there's two parts. There is not dead versus alive. There is. What does it mean to create aliveness, to have an antidote to death or to deadness in relationships? And what do we learn through trauma from many, many communities that helps us and informs us in terms of how people. Everybody knows how people cope. Everybody knows the difference between a relationship that isn't dead and a relationship that is alive. That's concrete when I say that sentence, people instantly can catalog the relationships they grew up with or have around them. The second part is risk versus safety. And are we more fearful today of relationships? Are we more fearful to take the risks of throwing ourselves into something, of making the changes? And there seems to be an answer that says yes. Even the question of the trad wife thing comes right back to this. There is so much change and so much movement around us that people are grasping for more certainty, more security, more security, more predictability, more.
- [35:34]
A
Does that mean we're all anxiously attached?
- [35:37]
B
No, I don't think it is.
- [35:38]
A
I know you don't love that, but.
- [35:39]
B
I also don't think it has to do with anxious attachment. I think it has to do with. But how do people cope with the uncertainty of society? Especially when the institutions that used to help us deal with uncertainty, of which religion and community were the primary places where we went to deal with that, have weakened so much. So the burdens of the self have never been heavier. It's all on me to figure this thing out. I don't go on a regular basis and hear someone impart to me, what shall I do with the ununderstandable and the unintelligible? What shall I do with why bad things happen to good people? And what shall I do with the question of evil?
- [36:25]
A
Right. I feel like I want to put a bit of a wrapper on this unsolvable question of why is it harder to fall in love as you get older? Because I think I'm learning it's partly biological.
- [36:35]
B
Maybe it's not biological, it's existential.
- [36:38]
A
Yeah, it's partly.
- [36:39]
B
If you are looking for A partner.
- [36:41]
A
Yes.
- [36:42]
B
You are scanning for different things than when you are looking to be transported.
- [36:47]
A
Right.
- [36:47]
B
And it's partly crush is a transport.
- [36:50]
A
Yes. And falling in love and passion. It's all a transport. And partly. So it's partly like. Yeah, a search filter. That is a different reality. It's partly an openness, a carefreeness liberation that you're talking about and part. And I think there might be something uniquely terrible about being in your 30s in the 2000 and 20s compared to.
- [37:10]
B
And also the biological club is crucial. I just did an episode on the podcast that just really went viral and it was, you know, I waited for you to be ready. Now I'm 40 and childless. She's got the embryos frozen. She's got the eggs frozen. But he doesn't want to use them anymore. They separate and here she is. And what does she think? I gave my 30s to this man whose name I may not even remember one day, but who will have left consequences on my life that I cannot begin to fathom.
- [37:44]
A
I know. And you have said to me that if you really want to be a mother, you should have a child by yourself or not by yourself. You've always said it's not by yourself because you have community.
- [37:53]
B
Correct. Either with community or with a person who wants to have a child but doesn't necessarily want to be platonic co parenting. I think I don't know which is the answer. But I do know that to just sit and say this is my only track. This is the way that a woman can have a child. She needs to find a partner. These steps that we need to be a little bit more creative. And I don't think they are perfect solutions. But the rest is imperfect too. Do you want to give that much power to someone who isn't even there for not having had children? When children is what you want is that it's like it's a giving or it's a surrender of a sense of agency that I think is. Is so sad for the women who want the children. I don't think it's a must, but I. I don't. I wouldn't give that over to anybody. That's the. The. It comes from a place of. It's a really emancipatory statement when I say this.
- [38:55]
A
Yes, it is. I mean the whole order of operations. The linear way in which we think about things. Yeah. Keeps you hostage potentially if you don't want to take.
- [39:04]
B
And that connects to part of your question about is it harder to fall in love? I think One of the things that happens in your 30s, if you look at you, you know, you developed your career, you developed yourself financially, you developed your community, you've built a whole life. You are looking for a capstone, right? And this is not a bad word, you know, when I say capstone is for a recognition for someone who appreciates who you are and all these things.
- [39:33]
A
I don't know if I'm actually looking for that. I think I've dated that. I think what I'm looking for is someone to be with in a dynamic life for an extended amount of time, but who doesn't.
- [39:48]
B
But that would not require doing away with some of these very important things that are part of who you are today.
- [39:56]
A
I kind of think. But sometimes I think, like, oh, are.
- [39:58]
B
You ready to trash it all?
- [40:00]
A
Not trash it all, but I think that there's a million ways, like, you know, it's. I'm in my third career at this point. Like, I came. I was, you know, I was a consultant. I went to documentary journal, documentary filmmaking. I'm doing journalism, podcasting. I feel like there's a lot of self reinvention that we can do as people, as women in particular. I feel like we're extremely capable, extremely flexible, and we're kind of put through the world in a way that makes us. That doesn't mean that I want to give it all up, but I think that I have a.
- [40:28]
B
You're malleable.
- [40:29]
A
I'm malleable. And I think that what's really interesting is I think that I'm malleable, but because of how I appear, it's hard for people to read me as malleable. And that has been a classic challenge in my dating life where I would.
- [40:44]
B
Not, you know, because you appear as.
- [40:46]
A
Appear as someone who is. Has a lot going on. Yeah. Has set. Exactly. And. And therefore, are you flexible. And the reality is, I might tell myself I'm more flexible than I am. That's what the Canadian ex boyfriend who you met had said to me. I think you think you're more flexible than you are.
- [41:01]
B
So that's part of why one falls less in love as well. Or not. Finds less love.
- [41:08]
A
Finds love less frequently.
- [41:10]
B
Less frequently. Because I do think when you're young, you're more malleable. We are more malleable. We are more willing to be shaped by the people that we are meeting. We're much more impressionable. We're not yet that formed. At your end of the 30s, you are quite formed.
- [41:26]
A
Yeah. And it's also about this caretaker. It's about vulnerability. I think the question you said love is vulnerable, sex is vulnerable. And you are vulnerable as a young person and you are vulnerable as an old person. But in your middle ages, you're not actually that vulnerable. Even though you feel deadly vulnerable inside, you're constantly in self doubt. Right. I think that there's no more time that you're like, you're coming across this professional existentialism. You have to achieve something in your relationship life. Your parents maybe are aging and getting sick or you have to have a biological imperative to have a kid. You feel so vulnerable. But as a society, we don't treat that as a vulnerable class.
- [42:10]
B
That is correct.
- [42:10]
A
If there's something true in that.
- [42:11]
B
That is correct.
- [42:12]
A
Yeah. And part of being in love is.
- [42:14]
B
Letting someone take care, especially if you are financially independent as well. Because that was one of the most reliable ways that women knew why to turn to men for.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah, well, maybe there's a bit more of that coming back. Hang tight for a second. We'll be right back. I want to switch gears a bit to this whole idea of therapy. So I asked this question to Ellen Vorin. I'll ask it to you. If I'm paying my therapist for 10 years, is the therapy not working?
- [42:41]
B
No, not necessarily. But it's not the same therapy as you had when it was one year or five years. It's, you know, it's. We use one word to describe a.
- [42:51]
A
Lot of different things is what if it's couples therapy? If I'm paying a, if we're paying a couple's therapist for 10 years, is the, is the therapy not working?
- [43:00]
B
I would put it like this. If you're paying the couples therapist, if you're paying the same couples therapist for 10 years, then maybe you should consider another one or the therapist should consider recommending you someone else. I think that what happens with long term therapy, it becomes a very different therapy. Just to be really clear, you may arrive because you're in crisis, because there's a, you're stuck, there's a. And then you continue and it becomes a little bit more coaching, a little bit more, you know, accompanying you to the life and to the life stages. And it becomes a place where you go to think, to reflect, to, you know, to, to, to make decisions and things like that. I do think that when you work with the therapist, as especially a couple therapists for a long time, that they, they have a certain view of you.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah.
- [43:51]
B
And I often will recommend to the couples I see long before 10 years, for that matter to go and talk to someone else.
- [43:59]
A
It's kind of like what we're saying about love. You have a set view. It's you. You're not malleable. You don't have the malleability.
- [44:03]
B
I need you to get the perspective of someone else, and I need you to get someone el your story differently from me because I'm only one person doing a certain things, and I find that very, very energizing.
- [44:18]
A
I love that, like liberating the couple to go pursue that other thing and liberating yourself from that narrative of their marriage. And you're always probably curious to find out what they learn. I'm sure you're like, come back and tell me. Or no.
- [44:27]
B
Yes. Yes. I mean, I have had couples on the podcast who ask for the transcript and bring the transcript of their session to their therapist. I love that I have many times therapists who accompany the couple to come to me for a consultation. And sometimes I accompany them for a consultation. I bring in colleagues. I think Zoom has facilitated that tremendously. That you can say you've worked with this issue more than me. Would you be willing to do a session or two with me with this couple?
- [45:01]
A
Remarkable.
- [45:01]
B
Great.
- [45:02]
A
So you recently did an episode of your podcast where you said, esther says run. You gave this woman advice to be. Was seemed it was a pretty terrible relationship. Everyone was listening to it, kind of knew the guy was married. There was a lot going on. But I. I just want to get a kind of quicker answer from you on, should therapists do more of that? Should therapists give their opinion more often?
- [45:26]
B
It's a question people ask. All therapists give their opinions all the time, whether directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly. Let's be clear. I don't think neutrality. Is adding neutrality sometimes overrated? Let's put it like that. We do have opinions. We do have our own lenses. The question that is more typical is, is it the role of a therapist to tell you when the relationship should end? And I. I think it's a very careful calibration.
- [45:59]
A
Okay.
- [46:00]
B
I think that you can't be glib about this because you never live with the consequences of the decision. Only the patient does on the other end. Sometimes you say things and then the patient reacts against what you said, and then they. You know where they're going. So if they are in a chronic state of ambivalence to tell them and to take one stance, then they will. They will have to respond to you. In this case, I didn't see, in effect, run, but I did tell her. Did you see what's. This is what's going on here? Do you get it? I just named the pieces.
- [46:36]
A
Yeah, but there was 20 minutes. Yeah. There wasn't too much neutrality in that.
- [46:40]
B
I don't know if she liked it or not. I don't know if she found it helpful or not. You know, so there is. What measures it? Is it the therapist's own sense of integrity, or is it the effect that it actually has on the person or on the couple? By what do you measure the validity of this intervention?
- [46:58]
A
Right. So I want to do a lightning round with you about all things. So we'll do a bunch of quick questions. You've said couples fight about three things. They are.
- [47:07]
B
I think that I often say it's not what you fight about, it's what you're fighting for.
- [47:12]
A
Right.
- [47:13]
B
And what most couples will fight for is power and control. Whose priorities matter most, who makes the decision? Who follows who? Then they fight over care and closeness. This is based on the work of Howard Markman. It's not my original thinking. And caring closeness is, do you have my back? Can I trust you? Will you stand by me? Can I rely on you? And the third one is respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? And underneath many of the arguments, when you ask yourself, what are they really fighting for? There are six of them, but these are the three main ones.
- [47:54]
A
If there was a fourth one, do you want me? Desire. And that's where sex comes into play.
- [48:01]
B
And that's where sex. Yes. Erotic intimacy and all of that. Yeah, I would. I would. Because I think that people. Because people can be deeply loved.
- [48:11]
A
Right.
- [48:12]
B
And, you know, and sexually famished.
- [48:15]
A
Do you think there is a fight that you have more often in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s?
- [48:20]
B
Most couples have a favorite fight, and it pretty much gets determined on their second date.
- [48:26]
A
Okay, that's great.
- [48:28]
B
It's an old story. It's very quick.
- [48:30]
A
If you had an Amazon Echo Esther button, I think this would be your absolute nightmare. But you could listen for three words that come up in people's homes or relationships and then press a buzzer to force them out of it. What would the three words be that you listen for?
- [48:47]
B
What the hell's wrong with you? Okay, that's a sentence. You suck.
- [48:53]
A
You.
- [48:55]
B
That's kind of the contempt, right? Is you're worthless. You're worthless. That's a better. That's a good one.
- [49:01]
A
What do people actually say in their homes?
- [49:03]
B
They say, you're worthless.
- [49:05]
A
They say that.
- [49:06]
B
They say you're worthless. They say you suck. They say all kinds of very mean things. You would be surprised.
- [49:12]
A
I feel very grateful for my former relationships now because I would be surprised.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah, you're asking me about negative things. So I'm giving you not just run of the mill, you know, lukewarm. I'm giving you really hot things that they say you're worthless. They say you're, you know, you're ugly. They say you're a fat slob. They say you're a disgrace. They say you should be embarrassed of yourself. Contempt is the. The final killer of them all. It kind of everything gets subsumed. You can be angry without contempt, but contempt is really an attempt to just. Just pierce through the other person.
- [49:53]
A
Do you think that talking about relationships makes relationships better?
- [49:57]
B
That's a very cultural question. First of all, there are plenty of cultures that don't advocate wearing your feelings on your sleeves and don't think that talking about stuff necessarily helps. We live in a society that believes in that.
- [50:11]
A
Okay.
- [50:11]
B
You know, do I think everything must be said in a relationship? No, not necessarily.
- [50:16]
A
What about talking about the idea of a relationship? Like, not even talking about the relationship, but just talking about the idea of relationship. All over our society right now, there's never been more work.
- [50:24]
B
And the reason we talk about relationships as much as we do at this moment, and we do it in a very, you know, we live in a psychologized world. We've got therapy, speak of the wazoo. But partly it's because we don't have the, you know, we talk about relationships because we don't talk about God, we talk about relationships. We talk because we don't talk about our community. So our relationships, be it at work or at home, have become the bastion where we go for our deepest emotional and existential needs. So of course we're obsessed with relationships and we don't have enough of them.
- [51:00]
A
Okay.
- [51:00]
B
We don't have enough of them. You know, we don't have enough friendship. We don't have enough people we meet at work on a daily basis.
- [51:08]
A
We're lonely. We're lonely, we're isolated.
- [51:10]
B
Not just lonely, we're also isolated.
- [51:12]
A
Okay. Does talking about sex make the sex better?
- [51:15]
B
Yes.
- [51:15]
A
Okay.
- [51:16]
B
And that's how you talk about it. When should you talk about, this is terrible, then, no, I don't want to talk. But if you say this would feel so wonderful, then maybe I do want to talk.
- [51:24]
A
Is it better to talk post coital, pre coital, or nowhere near the act of sex?
- [51:29]
B
All of the above. It's good. Depending on how you talk. If you're going to give instructions and be critical, don't do it in the middle.
- [51:37]
A
Yeah.
- [51:37]
B
And. And don't do it where you just had bad sex. Okay, wait, but if it's. But if you're wanting to communicate something that pleases you, that you. A partner who is eager to know, then don't wait till tomorrow when you're in the middle of it. It this. Don't have absolute answers.
- [51:54]
A
No, I know. That's why lightning rounds are so terrible. That's why I left it for the end, Esther, Because I knew it would piss you off.
- [52:00]
B
I want to give you nuance, and you're giving me do. It depends what you say.
- [52:05]
A
Yes, it depends what you say.
- [52:07]
B
It's like if I do an exercise with somebody and. And I say, take the hand of the partner and just.
- [52:12]
A
I.
- [52:12]
B
And not like this. Okay, then don't talk ever. Neither before, during, or after. But if you talk and you just say that feels really nice. You can tell it anytime.
- [52:21]
A
You know what I would love.
- [52:22]
B
It depends what you're saying.
- [52:23]
A
Yeah, exactly. And there is a way to say that. There's a way to say that it would be lovely if I fantasized about whatever it is now.
- [52:33]
B
There are plenty of people who will tell you I've tried to speak this way and my partner can't hear it. My partner thinks that they know what they're doing. My partner instantly feels criticized. So it's not just how you say and what you say. It's also, is there someone who can actually hear it? And it takes all these pieces for something to work. To work.
- [52:55]
A
Sex takes more than one piece or two, or the case may be. Okay. Fuck, marry, kill. Dating apps. Dating in the workplace or arranged marriages is. You know the game Fuck, marry, kill.
- [53:07]
B
No, I don't.
- [53:07]
A
You don't?
- [53:08]
B
No. You?
- [53:08]
A
No, no, no.
- [53:09]
B
Game.
- [53:09]
A
Fuck, marry, kill. See, Fuck. So marry means you'd like to keep it around forever. Fuck means you'd like to flirt with it sometimes. And kill means you wish. Like you, it doesn't happen anymore. So dating apps, dating in the workplace, arranged marriages.
- [53:25]
B
Arranged marriages. Depends on where I am in the world. But I certainly would want to make sure that they don't involve child brides. So that's a very conditional one. Dating apps, they need to change. They really need to help people get off the app. If they switch themselves off, we have a chance. And dating at work, yes. That is normally a place where you're likely to meet somebody as well.
- [53:53]
A
So now that you're marrying. Dating at work.
- [53:55]
B
Yes.
- [53:56]
A
Give me the answer. Marrying dating at work. You're fucking with dating apps and you're killing.
- [54:02]
B
If I have to put them in.
- [54:03]
A
Those categories, can you give it to me or you don't want to?
- [54:05]
B
Yes. No, I won't, because I don't. Because I think that arranged marriages, you know, what you think the dating app does? What do you think the algorithm does?
- [54:15]
A
It's arranging you. It's your grandparents. It's going to be even more. What do you think AI is going to do to date.
- [54:20]
B
Exactly. So this idea that this is an arranged marriage and this is not. No, I don't want to do that.
- [54:25]
A
Okay. What surprises you more? People. How many people cheat or how many people don't?
- [54:29]
B
What surprises me more is who ends up cheating, who was convinced that they never would.
- [54:35]
A
Do you think it surprises them?
- [54:36]
B
Yes.
- [54:37]
A
Yeah, definitely. Surprises their partner?
- [54:40]
B
Yes, for sure. But it also surprises them. And cheat is not necessarily the word I would put in there, but I think that that's. That the vast majority of people that we see in affairs have often been exclusive and faithful for decades, and they one day cross a line that they themselves never thought they would cross. We think of the repeat offenders and the chronic philanderers, but that's not the majority.
- [55:03]
A
Do you think all breakups are mutual?
- [55:05]
B
No.
- [55:06]
A
Really?
- [55:06]
B
Oh, no. Because people get rejected, people get dumped.
- [55:11]
A
I think sometimes all breakups are mutual because you feel like. I often feel even when I break up with someone, it's because I maybe voice communicated. Didn't communicate. Communicate, but had a desire that wasn't fulfilled and that person's not fulfilling that and that not working. They kind of told me what they thought, too.
- [55:31]
B
I don't think all breakups are mutual. I think that in many breakups you find a collusion of two people who kind of colluded together in making something impossible to continue. But the end itself, I don't think is mutual. I've seen people truly left and bereft and in the gutter, and it wasn't what they wanted.
- [55:57]
A
If you had one tip, I know you always get asked this, like one thing, orientation, a question, or one question you could ask your partner that would change or reframe a conversation.
- [56:09]
B
Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. If people could not instantly react and just ask to continue. Tell me more. Let me hear this thing. Let me actually enter your universe. I think that you never know fully where the other person is going to go. You think you do, but you don't Tell me more, Tell me more.
- [56:34]
A
I'm asking you, tell me more. Last one. Who's a couple that you really admire? I really admire you and Jack, by the way. I have to say, knowing a little bit, and not just for the longevity of your marriage, but for the evolution maybe that you've described of it and the way that you host together, the way that you bring people together, the values you share and how that's reflected in your family and children.
- [56:56]
B
Thank you.
- [56:56]
A
Is that something that. Is there a couple that you look at that you really admire?
- [57:00]
B
I have a number of couples that I think just have a good thing going.
- [57:04]
A
Give me one. You don't have to name them even. You can just describe.
- [57:08]
B
It's people who actually have a lot of compassion for each other. They really appreciate the good thing that's happening to the other person. They rejoice for them even when that has nothing to do with them.
- [57:20]
A
That's what conversion means, celebration of this.
- [57:23]
B
I think they have tremendous respect for the individuality and the freedom of the other person. That's thing that I notice the word you used is actually really good. They admire their partner. They're not just respect, because admiration involves an idealization. You look up to people you admire. When people admires their partner after 10, 15, 30 years, they have a good thing going.
- [57:48]
A
You don't want to give me one like Michelle and Barack or something?
- [57:51]
B
No, I would be one couple of friends. You know, I tried to write a paper about this because we talk about solid couples, lasting couples, but we rarely talk about creative couples like the couple that have that thing, that spark. And I wanted to understand what is that spark? And the interesting part of your question, and we can end with that, is that the majority of people that I interviewed, I interviewed about 80 people for this, could sometimes think of one couple, maybe two, mostly none. Everybody could give me authors, artists, politicians, philosophers that they put sports, people that they admired and inspired them. But they couldn't come up with a couple, a romantic couple that inspired them. And. And I thought that was quite an answer.
- [58:39]
A
I have so many, and yet I'm still single. The last question, and this is where we'll end, I end every episode asking my guests, what are they curious about? What's a question that you've had that you haven't asked out loud, that you have in the back of your head that we might be able to answer for you?
- [58:53]
B
On a simple level, A question that I often have is why is it that when I come out of my building, I don't know, where is the north and where is the south? And what is the brain of people who never get lost?
- [59:04]
A
Yeah.
- [59:04]
B
Yes.
- [59:04]
A
I'm also terrible. We're always lost. And I have no sense of navigation.
- [59:08]
B
What makes someone always know where they are?
- [59:12]
A
It's something. It's interesting. Cause I have a theory that people are better in bed. Men are better in bed when they have a good sense of navigation.
- [59:19]
B
Oh, that's an interesting thing.
- [59:21]
A
And they're good drivers, especially. You know, I really can judge by a man's parallel parking ability. You know, that's what I'm looking for.
- [59:29]
B
On a deeper level.
- [59:31]
A
Yes.
- [59:31]
B
The one that.
- [59:33]
A
Yeah.
- [59:34]
B
Baffles me, that leaves me constantly intrigued is the one we discussed before, which is, why is it that the same circumstances become the bolstering and the drive and the strength of one person and become the thing that breaks the next one? And sometimes in the same family, I find that an endlessly unanswerable question. I mean, everybody has aunts, but, like, what? Why is it that the same circumstances make one and undermine the other?
- [60:07]
A
We're the variable, I guess.
- [60:08]
B
Yes. What's the thing that made. You know?
- [60:11]
A
I love that. All right, Esther, I would ask you to tell me more, but you got to get out of here. Thank you so much more off camera. We'll talk off camera, then maybe you'll tell me which one you would fuck Mary Kill.
- [60:22]
B
I don't know that game. I have to kind of figure this one out.
- [60:25]
A
It's a very fun game. Esther, thank you so much for doing this. For people watching or listening, you can find Esther, Esther Perel official on Instagram. You can find her all over social media. You can listen to her great podcast. Where should we begin? You can play her card game. Where should we begin? And you can also read her books. Mating in Captivity is my personal favorite.
- [60:46]
B
Thank you so much.
- [60:47]
A
Thank you for doing this and also thank you for being such a good friend. You really, really encouraged me to do this. And I'm so happy that you're here. It's a full circle moment for me.
- [60:54]
B
I like the fact that you're saying it, because often we don't know what is the relationship between hosts and their guests. And because I think sometimes we don't necessarily hear enough how people support each other in their work and especially how women support each other in their work. So I like it very much.
- [61:18]
A
You know, I know Esther Perel would not play Fuck Mary Kill, but I would marry Mary. Mary Esther Perel. I just love speaking to her. I learn something every time. And this conversation, it's funny, Esther is someone who doesn't want to be pinned down, so I knew I couldn't ask her my like kind of signature lightning round dumb questions, but I thought we had a really thoughtful conversation about that inverted V shape of like the difficulty of falling in love or I guess the V shape of the ease of falling in love and how that changes over time. I loved what she said said about being carefree and also the kind of historic context of post pill pre aids which I had never thought about as a moment in time. And I think the other thing I left thinking is like it's okay if it's hard to date after your twenties because like it's going to be great again in your 80s. So like I just can't wait till the year 2060 something so I can experience that. That's it for this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. By the way, I want to hear your questions. So email me at naimaraza101gmail.com or leave us a comment or review below. And be sure to share this show with your dad, your next door neighbor, your 10 closest friends, that kid from middle school who really likes podcasts. They can find Smart Girl dumb questions on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you and they hang out. Today's show was produced with Greg Ott and Annalisa Cochran alongside an awesome team at Rapid Grin Productions and Wonder Studios. Our theme music music is by David Khan and I'm your host Naima Reza. See you next week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.