Is Your Portfolio Ready for Energy Price Swings? Plus, Tackling Debt on a High Income

Summary

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NerdWallet’s Smart Money Podcast

Episode: Is Your Portfolio Ready for Energy Price Swings? Plus, Tackling Debt on a High Income

Date: April 16, 2026
Hosts: Sean Pyles, CFP®, and Elizabeth Ayoola
Guests: Ana Hillhosky (NerdWallet News), Sam Taub (NerdWallet Investing Writer), Listener Melis

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Episode Overview

This episode is split into two main segments:

• Segment 1: The NerdWallet team unpacks recent volatility in energy prices, the effects of Middle East tensions on the markets, and how listeners should approach their portfolios amidst ongoing geopolitical and economic uncertainty.
• Segment 2: A candid, in-depth coaching conversation with listener Melis, a neuroscience PhD who recently landed a six-figure job after years of low-income work but is struggling to pay off debt and form new money habits. The Nerds offer practical tips for tackling tax debt, building financial resilience, and breaking cycles of emotional spending.

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Segment 1: Navigating Market Volatility & Energy Price Swings

Timestamps: 03:18–14:43

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Geopolitical Events & Their Impact on Oil Prices

• Conflict and ceasefire developments in the Middle East are causing sharp—but often short-lived—swings in oil prices.
• Recent “good news” (like a ceasefire) may dip oil temporarily, but risks remain high due to persistent tension.

“When we get good news about this conflict, it seems to me that it’s very rarely durable... As long as this conflict is still going on... things are gonna keep happening that spike the price back up to the $100 level.”
— Sam Taub, [04:26]

2. Should Investors Make Reactive Portfolio Moves?

• Caution against knee-jerk reactions to volatile headlines.
• Long-term investors should “tune this out and just stay the course,” while short-term traders may need to brace for more turbulence.

“For long-term investors who have a time horizon in decades, this is just short-term volatility... just stay the course.”
— Sam Taub, [07:52]

3. Portfolio Construction for Prolonged High Oil

• If oil remains high, energy, materials, and defense stocks tend to benefit.
• “Boring” sectors like consumer staples and utilities show resilience.

“That scenario is good for energy stocks... companies in that industry are seeing prices stay high. Also would be good for defense contractors. It's bad for basically everything else...”
— Sam Taub, [09:36]

• Most non-energy sectors, especially those reliant on oil, could see pressure on margins and profits.

4. The Fed, Bonds, and Interest Rates

• Rising oil complicates the Federal Reserve’s plans; rate cuts are likely delayed.
• For bondholders: higher yields continue for now, but price appreciation might take longer.

“The interest rate cuts we were expecting this year are probably not going to happen anytime soon... lower interest rates are probably delayed for the time being.”
— Sam Taub, [10:44–12:57]

5. Inflation Hedges & Currency Strength

• Energy-driven inflation could give gold some near-term appeal.
• The U.S. dollar might remain strong, since pressures are global.

6. Geopolitical Risk as a Permanent Feature

• Geopolitical risk is “always there,” but for long-term investors it doesn’t require constant game-plan shifts.

“If you are investing for a long-term goal like retirement… it really doesn’t [change much]. Just stay the course.”
— Sam Taub, [14:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On headline-driven markets:
  "This week has been an example of this interesting kind of ratchet effect... big reactions to positive headlines, and very little reaction to negative ones."
  — Sam Taub, [07:52]

• Ana’s closing observation:
  “Running the long game.”
  — Ana Hillhosky, [14:40]

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Segment 2: Listener Q&A — Tackling Debt on a High Income

Timestamps: 18:35–49:39

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Melis’s Story: Income Jump & Financial Baggage

• Transitioned from subsistence-level academic stipends to a $170k self-employed role.

• Carries a mix of student loans, credit card debt, and significant tax debt stemming from grad school fellowship confusion and extended low-income periods.

  “Before I got this job, I was working as a caregiver for $14 an hour with my PhD... and now I’m definitely in the six figures range. I'm about 170.”
  — Melis, [22:25]

• Emotional history around money, shaped by growing up with scarcity:

  “I think when you have a little extra money... it feels good to give yourself that. But I think it is 100% emotional.”
  — Melis, [25:15]

2. Emotional Cycles & Mindset Shifts

• Melis’s “color” for her finances: “Purple—there’s possibility there... a little moody.”
  — Melis, [19:19]
• Navigating the sense of guilt/shame from past decisions, and working towards not “beating yourself up” for financial literacy gaps.

3. Practical Steps & Personalized Advice

• Debt Paydown Progress: Melis has cleared four credit cards and is on several payment plans, focusing on highest-interest debt (avalanche method).

  “You're actually doing a great job... paying down the highest interest debt first is a great strategy.”
  — Elizabeth Ayoola, [30:04]

• Discussion of Tools:

  • Debt consolidation (risk of “sketchy” programs; avoid settlement schemes that hurt credit or stall payments).
  • 0% APR balance transfer cards recommended if eligible (credit score 695).
  • High-Yield Savings Account for emergency fund and goal saving.
  • Sinking funds for travel dreams.

• Automating Finances: Essential for managing mental and administrative load, especially with neurodivergence.

  “Everything is an automatic payment plan. However, when I have extra, I just throw it at the, like, highest interest thing.”
  — Melis, [29:22]

• Handling Self-Employment & Taxes:

  • Must save for and make quarterly estimated tax payments to avoid new penalties.
  • CPA consultation recommended, though active follow-up is key.

  “There's also a risk there with underpayment penalties by the IRS... easiest thing is pay quarterly taxes.”
  — Elizabeth Ayoola, [43:10]

4. Building Habits & Setting Goals

• Melis struggles with long-term vision due to a life spent “just surviving.”

• Nerds encourage journaling, mindful walks, and visualizing a ten-year horizon.

  “You often need someone else's perspective to see just how much you've really done because you've come so far over the past few years.”
  — Sean Pyles, [34:30]

• Spending triggers and coping mechanisms: urge to splurge after years in survival mode.

  • Ideas: Block trigger shopping sites, create wishlist(s) as mandatory “pause,” and always reference goals before spending.

5. Permission to Dream & Find Joy

• Melis’s goal: a whale biology-themed trip (personal and potentially career-advancing).

• Advice: Instead of saying “I can't afford it and it's irresponsible,” reframe as “I can’t afford it yet, but it’s aspirational.”

• Consider grants/research funds; make travel a sinking fund goal.

• If/when moving home, use reduced rent to supercharge paydown or savings.

  “Life isn’t all about paying down debt and paying bills... create a sinking fund for this trip.”
  — Elizabeth Ayoola, [45:58]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On emotional recovery:
  “In my 30s, I get to, like, actually dream and, like, have bigger goals than what I previously let myself.”
  — Melis, [34:03]

• On learned resilience:
  "We just joke that like some people... have a kid or go on vacation. I'm just like, I'm building character."
  — Melis, [28:16]

• Encouragement:
  "You're in a really exciting place right now, turning a corner. We're proud of you."
  — Sean Pyles, [47:20]

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Concrete Takeaways (Listener “Homework”)

• Look into 0% APR balance transfer credit cards to minimize interest on remaining debt.
• Set up a high-yield savings account for emergency and/or travel savings (sinking fund).
• Explore grant opportunities for career-aligned travel.
• Ensure quarterly tax payments are made to avoid future penalties.
• Continue automating debt payments; set up even $25/month to savings to build habit.
• Build infrastructure (“guardrails”) to minimize triggers for overspending.

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Memorable Final Moment

• Favorite Perfume?
  Melis: “Vampire Wife” by Source (Charlotte, NC). “Blood orange wedding cake... It makes me feel powerful and exciting.” [49:41–50:22]
  (The Nerds joke about getting Melis a brand deal with the perfumery!)

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Useful Timestamps

• Latest money news, oil & markets: [03:18]–[14:43]
• Listener Melis joins, financial color metaphor: [18:35]–[19:19]
• Emotional money journey: [23:50]–[25:15]
• Debt breakdowns & payment strategies: [25:34]–[30:32]
• Balancing debt paydown with savings: [37:47]–[40:32]
• Self-employment tax management: [40:32]–[44:20]
• Advice on guilt-free travel planning: [45:21]–[47:20]
• Action items & perfume tangent: [48:05]–[50:22]

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Episode Summary

This packed episode blends actionable financial strategies for volatile markets with deeply personal advice on managing debt and rewiring your money mindset after an income jump. Listeners learn that while energy prices and geopolitics are unpredictable, long-term investing discipline—and developing self-compassion and new habits—remain your best allies. Melis’s journey resonates with anyone navigating success after scarcity and proves the emotional and practical value of “turning to the Nerds” for holistic advice.

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Transcript

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[B]

Sometimes it feels like you can never just get ahead of your finances. Maybe you're trying to overcome debt. Maybe you keep making more money, but then you spend it. Today, some tips and tricks for pushing yourself forward. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Pyles.

[A]

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. Later this episode, we're gonna be talking to a listener who's maybe making good money, but unfortunately she doesn't feel like she's saving enough.

[B]

But first, our weekly money news roundup, where we break down the latest in the world of finance to help you be smarter with your money. Last week, we spoke with our news colleague Ana Hillhosky about Warflation. This week, she's back to unpack what all the stock market turbulence means for investors. Hey, Ana.

[C]

Hey, Elizabeth. And Sean. That's right. The stock market's been on a bit of a roller coaster lately. It's up, it's down, it's up, it's down. And while some fluctuations are normal, the swings that we're seeing now reflect a broader moment of uncertainty. Between global conflicts, shifting economic policy, and ongoing questions about inflation and interest rates. There's a lot for investors to process. So to help make sense of what this volatile market means for your investment strategy, I'm joined by Sam Taub, Investing writer at NerdWallet. Welcome back, Sam.

[B]

Thanks.

[D]

Good to be here again.

[C]

So a lot is changing right now. We are in flux. But last week, the ceasefire dropped oil from more than $100 per barrel down to around $95 per barrel. As of this recording, it's $97 per barrel. Should this be considered a genuine buying opportunity or more of a short lived recovery?

[D]

Well, I think that the complete answer to that requires a level of understanding about this conflict that I don't necessarily have. But what I can say from my experience covering the stock market and covering how different news events affect it, is this when we get good news about this conflict? It seems to me that it's very rarely durable. It tends to be pretty short lived stuff. There have been times when oil has briefly dipped because there's a ceasefire or because there's a report that peace talks are progressing or whatever else it may be. But I think another important thing to keep in mind is that we get a lot of conflicting pieces of news day to day that make it feel like this conflict is not over yet. Whether that's Israeli strikes in Lebanon or this recent US Blockade of the Strait of Hormuz or whatever else it may be. And when those pieces of news come out, oil goes back up to $100. And again, I'm a little out of my wheelhouse here. I'm not a military guy, I'm not a specialized oil analyst. But my hunch is that as long as this conflict is still going on in some capacity, as long as there isn't like a peace treaty, things are gonna keep happening. Sometimes that spike the price back up to the $100 level, sometimes. Now, I don't know if I'd say that this is a buying opportunity for long term investors, because I think most of the players here do want this war to actually end. And we have to hope that it will in the not too distant future. And when it does, we can assume that that would probably push oil prices back down below $100. But is there going to be volatility and spikes until then? Probably.

[C]

All right, now, despite the terms of the ceasefire, Iran has made it clear that ships need permission to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. But now the US Is blockading the Strait. So there's still significant tension there, to say the least. What does that tell investors about how much the ceasefire actually changes market risk?

[D]

So there was a report over the weekend that the talks in Pakistan, which are trying to turn this ceasefire into a long term peace deal, aren't really moving forward. And there's a lot of stuff that is unresolved. The stuff Strait of Hormuz is just part of that. Iran, from what I understand, was demanding payment to let ships through the Strait of Hormuz as part of the ceasefire deal from the beginning. Now the US Is blocking the strait. It seems like the situation there is very fluid. There's also the whole issue of Lebanon. Israel claims that its conflict with Hezbollah in Lebanon is not part of the ceasefire deal. Iran disagrees. That's another point of contention here. What I'm getting at is that it doesn't seem wise to assume that this cease fire is going to hold and that all of this is definitely going to wrap up soon and that oil prices are going to go back down. I. From, from what little I understand of this news, it seems to me like this conflict is still kind of continuing despite the fact that there is this nominal ceasefire.

[C]

So all as you Kind of alluded to. There's all kinds of information that's been coming out. It's coming out really rapidly. Are investors being reactive to headlines? And I guess what are some of the common concerns with knee jerk reactions?

[D]

This week has been an example of this interesting kind of ratchet effect that we've seen over the course of this conflict. Traders seem to have big reactions to positive headlines like this very fragile temporary ceasefire, and very little reaction to negative headlines like, for example, President Trump's threats to step up airstrikes on Iran. There is this optimism that this will all be over soon. Does that make sense? Again, I can't predict the future, but personally I'm not sure it does. I think that there is a possibility that in the next few days or weeks people realize that ending this conflict is not going to be so simple and oil goes back up and maybe stocks go back down. Now, when it comes to knee jerk reactions to news headlines in general, I think it's important to note that for long term investors who have a time horizon in decades, this is just short term volatility. And it still probably makes sense to try to kind of tune this out and just stay the course. But I do think that we could be in for more volatility, which does matter to people who are trying to do like short term trading. And again, it seems to me that there's a chance the market is being overly optimistic about what has happened over the last few days.

[C]

Sam, I'm going to give you a hypothetical, and I know that everybody loves hypotheticals, but bear with me. Let's say crude oil hovers around $100 per barrel through the next few months or even the foreseeable future, as some analysts have projected. And if that's the base case, how do you construct a portfolio around that?

[D]

Well, that scenario is good for energy stocks and also for materials stocks because companies in that industry are seeing the prices of their wares stay high in that scenario. That also would imply that the war is continuing, which would also be good for defense contractors. It's bad for basically everything else because more expensive oil means higher prices and also squeezed profit margins for companies. Really boring industries like consumer staples and utilities seem to be mostly unaffected by the events of the last couple weeks. But other than that, it wouldn't be good for a lot of other sectors.

[C]

So specifically, which sectors are proving to be the most resilient during this period of, quote, ceasefire volatility that investors should look to?

[D]

Again, boring things. Consumer staples, utilities, industrials.

[C]

Now, how should investors think about bonds right now, given that the Fed is in more of an uncertain and challenging situation.

[D]

That's a very good question because these events do affect the way that the Fed is making decisions and also the bond market. But it's a little bit of a hike to get from the Iran news to hear, so bear with me. For the last year or so, we have been talking about the Fed cutting interest rates. And this comes from a perception that inflation is more or less under control and that now the main concern is kind of freeing up capital and making sure that the economy stays strong. And when this war started and the price of oil, this really vital input to everything in our modern lives, when the price of that went up, that kind of threw a wrench in the Fed's plans to steadily decrease interest rates over the next year or so. What we've seen from Federal Reserve interest rate decision forecasting tools in the last few weeks is that the interest rate cuts that we were expecting this year are probably not going to happen anytime soon. Traders in futures markets have really stopped pricing in the possibility of interest rate cuts. And in fact, there was even a time a few weeks ago when people thought that the Fed might start increasing interest rates again in response to a potential return of inflation. That people seem to have calmed down about that possibility. But the point that I'm getting at here is that lower interest rates are probably delayed for the time being. Now, when it comes to the effects on bonds, that means that people who own bond funds and are using them as an income source are earning higher yields than expected. But the prices of bonds tend to move inversely to yields. And so people who are holding onto bonds in the hopes of reselling them for a higher price might have to wait longer to do that. Because of the macroeconomic effects of this conflict, interest rate cuts are probably going to take longer than expected.

[C]

Now, how should investors think about the inflationary pressures that we've talked about stemming from higher energy costs and the strength of the US Dollar? Are there hedges right now? That makes sense.

[D]

So there's definitely potential for inflationary pressure. As we've talked about, oil is in everything. The effect of this conflict on gas prices is something that has already hit American consumers pretty hard. And I know your team has been updating NerdWallet's articles on gas prices to reflect that. Now, the thing about the dollar is that it may not depreciate that much because these same things, the higher price of oil and the potential effect on consumer price levels that also applies to other countries as well, so it's hard to say whether this will hit the dollar harder than any other currency. There's definitely a potential for more inflation. There's definitely a possibility that over the next few months or so the amount of stuff that the dollar can buy is going to decrease. And in terms of a hedge there, gold could still be a possibility, but it's hard to say right now.

[C]

We've seen a lot of fluctuations over the last few months. Is geopolitical risk now a just a standing feature of portfolios and not just an episodic one? And how does that change an investing strategy?

[D]

I think that if you are investing for a long term goal like retirement that's decades away, it really doesn't. For short term traders it does. But I think most of the people listening here are investing for the long term. And as we talked about, it's best to just stay the course at times like this.

[C]

Right? Running the long game. All right, thanks Sam, so much. Appreciate it.

[B]

And thank you, Ana. Up next, we talk with the listener about how to get ahead when their salary is increasing, but they feel like they just aren't making progress on their financial goals.

[A]

But before we get into that, you know what we want. Yes, it is your money questions. Maybe you're stressed out with what's going on in the world right now and it's negatively impacting your finances and you want to chat with us about that. Or maybe you're trying an advanced investing strategy and you need help working through that. Whatever your money questions are, send them to us on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-63. 373. That's 901-730-N-E R D. We love emails. You can send them to [e-mail] you can also leave us a comment on Spotify or how about you find us on YouTube like and subscribe and leave a comment on there too.

[B]

More in a moment. Stay with us. The following is a paid sponsorship, not an endorsement by Nerdwall's editorial team. Today's episode is sponsored by Bilt.

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You've heard me talk about Bilt as the loyalty program that lets you earn points on rent wherever you live. And they just leveled up even more. As of 2026, renters and homeowners can also earn up to 1.25x points on their housing payments.

[B]

This is thanks to Bilt's three new credit cards, the Palladium Card, Obsidian card, and Blue Card. All three can turn your housing payments rent or mortgage into flexible rewards so you can choose the card that fits your lifestyle without missing out on points and exclusive benefits.

[A]

Built points can be redeemed at top airlines and hotels, Amazon.com purchases, future rent payments, and so much more. Built points have also been ranked by top publications as the industry's most valuable point currency.

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Quint.com smartmoney. We're back. And answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode. We're coming to you live from our podcast studio in Scottsdale, Arizona. And we're joined by a listener, Melis, who's coming to us via the Internet. Hey, Melisse, how are you?

[E]

Hey.

[B]

Doing good.

[E]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Thanks for coming on and talking with us.

[E]

Yeah, I'm very excited to talk talk money with you both. I'm a big fan of the podcast.

[A]

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. We're excited to talk to you as well. We are going to start with the icebreaker. I love icebreakers, as we know. And my question for you, Melis, is if you had to describe your finances right now using a color, what color would you choose?

[E]

That's a great question. I don't want to be boring and say red, because that is just, you know, like, panicky. Yeah, it does. Maybe like, I don't know, maybe purple. You know, it's like, I think it's like a. It's getting to a better spot, which is exciting. There's possibility there. Purple feels like there's potential. It's a little moody. So there's a lot going on, but I think that I'm moving towards a place that feels like it's a little bit more expansive and free. So that's. That's exciting.

[B]

But you still have some warm hues as an undercurrent there that we're trying to work through. So talk with us about what you. What you wrote to us about what, what your situation is right now.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's a little bit messy, but, you know, I've been in this sort of higher education space for the last, like, 18 years. I did my bachelor's degree, worked a lot of very minimum wage jobs, which, you know, probably put me in a little bit of slight debt, especially student loan debt, and then went back and got my PhD, which I just finished in the last, you know, year and a half, which has been super. Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks.

[B]

What's your PhD in?

[E]

Neuroscience and behavior, so.

[B]

Oh, fascinating.

[E]

Yeah, it's. Oh, I absolutely love it. But that also was a path where you're getting paid, like, very minimum wage. If you ever have an emergency, you're definitely in the red. And that kind of. It just happens. Life, I think, happens as well as not decisions I could have possibly made. So I'm kind of in the space now where I'm taking accountability. I'm trying to move forward. I've Gotten an amazing job. And so it's like, how do you kind of reconcile like handling debt, making better choices, not beating yourself up for the choices that maybe you made with less information that you had. Right. And then also being someone who is very like neurodivergent and like I am like, you know, I have a perfume hyper fixation this month.

[A]

I feel you. I feel you.

[B]

Yeah. Three weeks ago you probably didn't even care about perfume, but now exactly like totally get that.

[E]

Now I'm going to be driving two hours on Saturday to go find a local perfume house and like, you know, it's just.

[A]

Are we the same person? This was me from like December to January. And I kid you not, I was in my local mall almost every day smelling perfumes and trying to decide which ones to buy. And I did buy quite a few. So you're not alone.

[E]

Yeah, I have a diabolical level of like 2 mill samplers, you know. Like.

[D]

Oh yes.

[E]

So it's like a little out of hand. So I'm trying to work through all of these things and like, you know, you want to enjoy life but not be like so nilly willy that you have no financial plan. So that's kind of where I'm at.

[B]

And from my understanding, you just had a huge increase in your salary. Talk with us about that.

[E]

Yeah, I mean truly the. I'm trying, I was trying to think about the highest salary I've had and we can, I can feel free to talk raw numbers, but like prior to getting my PhD and getting my first sort of like full time position, I think the most I had made was in the like 40 to 55k mark, which is not terrible, but sort of. Some of the places that I was living, it was very bare bones, like Seattle, San Francisco, Massachusetts. Like that is, I think, well, not

[B]

take you very far there.

[E]

Yeah, no, I mean my Ph.D. i made about $2,000 a month and the cost of living for a one bedroom was about 2,000. So that is like, you know. Yeah, it's, you're, you're, you know, people make it do with roommates and things like that, but it still is tight and now I'm definitely in the six figures range. I'm about 170. And so it does feel like potentially

[B]

over $100,000 increase in your salary. 120ish over the course of a single year.

[A]

Yes, a huge.

[B]

Yeah, congratulations again on that. Pretty miraculous. But it's a huge adjustment to how you're managing your finances on a daily basis and even long Term.

[E]

I mean, Even here's my 32nd lure. I had a postdoc, and that was amazing. My dream job would have loved it, but with the new 2025 administrative cuts, I actually lost out on that position and started coming back home and working for $14 an hour. So before I got this job, I was working as a caregiver for $14 an hour with my PhD.

[B]

So, I mean, it's been a roller coaster.

[E]

It's been a wild ride. Yeah.

[A]

Melisse, when you wrote us, you mentioned something, because I think sometimes we jump straight into, you know, fixing your financial issues or resolving very practical things, and we forget about the emotional and mental side of money. So you wrote to us and you said that you grew up in a household that was relatively low income and you think that might be impacting your finances. So can you talk to us about that?

[E]

For sure. I think that, like, my money trajectory has changed so much in my adult life, in my childhood life, too. Like, I think the first nine years of my life was very, like, it was extremely, like, very beyond Thai. And I think that we're just moving around a lot. And, like, you know, I remember, like, one of my favorite stories is my mom bought me, like, a pair of shoes for my birthday just because I needed them. And she told me, and at the time, as a kid, you're like, don't tell me those things. This is my birthday. But that was, like, all she could afford was, like, a pair of rain boots. You know what I mean? And then, like, I think from age 10 to 18, things were, like, a little bit better. Even though there was a lot of economy crashes and things like that, like, it was always, like, kind of tighter. And then college. My parents both lost their jobs when I went to school, so that was definitely, like, on me to do, like, Pell grants and student loans and working, you know, one to three jobs. So it's just been a ride. Like, I think my whole life has just been a roller coaster financially. And so I think that, like, that definitely informs the sort of emotional. Like, I think when you have a little bit of extra money or even if you don't, honestly, it's like, I just want this thing, you know, and it just. It feels good to give yourself that. But I think it is 100 emotional and not always, like, I'm not. I'm really having conversations. I guess in the past, I've rarely been like, oh, I don't need this, and I'm going to the red to get this. It would be like, no this is purely an emotional decision and I just want this and it's going to make me feel better, so I'm going to do it, you know.

[B]

Well, now you're in a place where you can leverage your new amazing salary and begin to establish the life that you want for yourself as an adult and longer term. But you have a few things that you need to work through, specifically some debt. So talk with us about the main areas of concern that you have and we can talk through maybe how your salary can help you resolve them.

[E]

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that the debt is fairly high, but not insurmountable. So I have paid off about four credit cards since I started this job, which is awesome. Incredible.

[C]

Thank you.

[E]

Yeah, I have been, like, trying to be aggressive about it. I still have one more that's about $6,000, I think, honestly, half of that is just interest, which is crazy. And then I have three private loans through. One of them actually just paid off as well. So one is Sallie Mae and a credit union from grad school and then student loans. We're looking at about 66,000 there. And then I made a mistake. And I'm happy to be transparent because I think. I'm sure people have been in a similar space where I just did not know that, like, if you did not fight, like, I got these external fellowships in grad school and they told us this very nebulous, like, it might be tax deductible, it might not hire someone to figure it out. And I'm like, there is babes. There is no hiring someone to figure this out.

[B]

Yeah, when money is tight like that, you're making $50,000 a year, yet you're not hiring.

[E]

Right. I think I was making 27 in some of these years and then 30 on the best year. So, I mean, like, if I have a doctor's appointment, I'm in the red, right? Like, there's no. So anyways, I just didn't file. I was just like, cool. I asked some people, they said, oh, we're not filing. And so I was like, cool. I'm just not going to file. Well, lo and behold, that's like the worst thing you could possibly do because now my penalties for some of these taxes and, like, I think I only owed about $2,000 state taxes, it's now about $7,000. So I'm so sorry.

[B]

Yeah, failure to file penalty is really aggressive and it just adds up over time. And there's not a great way to pay back except just giving your money

[E]

straight to the IRS, I mean, 100%. So it's like, you know, a lesson. I think I'm having to make peace with the fact that some of these lessons you learn are expensive, but it's not also the end of the world for me and I feel extremely lucky and privileged to be in that specific space. But same for the state, federal taxes. It's like I have been paying unknowingly interest and fees daily for the last several years, so that is also about 20k. So I think that that is my biggest concern is like, I'm trying to juggle all of the different interests for all these different things and like, see, like, which one I should be paying off aggressively first and then also building the infrastructure that I never have to make these sort of mistakes again. You know, I told my parents who were like, we just didn't. Nobody taught us these things, you know, like we didn't know. And we just joke that like some people, you know, have a kid or like go on vacation. I'm just like, I'm building character.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm paying for. So with your tax debt, talk with me about what kind of payment plan you're on. And I'm also wondering whether you've looked into something called an offer and compromise to basically settle this debt.

[E]

Yeah, I haven't looked. I. So I hired an attorney and that has also been like a huge expense this year. I'm on a payment plan for both, so I've been. I'm happy.

[A]

Are you on a short term or long? I'm guessing you're on a long term payment plan or are you on a short term?

[E]

I am, but the goal is to kind of like pay off the highest interest things first and then I'm going to tackle that as soon as this credit card is done. So hopefully in the next few months I can be more aggressive and not pay just the minimum, but the minimum on both is about like $400. So that is kind of like, I mean, it's a little embarrassing to share, but I think just in the spirit of transparency and making people feel less alone, I'm on about nine different payment plans right now. So it's like, I think that kind of weight feels like pretty heavy. Even though I have this salary and I'm like getting them down, it's just still like you just feel like you're

[B]

being the administrative and mental load of all of that can be really exhausting. How are you keeping track of all of these payment plans?

[E]

I mean, I'm automating a lot of them now, which has been awesome, I think. Or it was just like, you know, I think the financial strategy that I had, especially during grad school, was just like, survive, right? In undergrad, it was just survive. Even as a, you know, teenager, it was like, just get the paycheck and throw it at the problem. And so I think now my thing is, like, everything is an automatic payment plan. However, when I have extra, I just throw it at the, like, highest interesting. Which has been the credit cards, right? Getting those out of the way and then moving on to the next big ticket item, which I think that. I mean, that's where I'm hoping I can ask you guys about your strategy, because right. Right now, I don't know if that's, like, the best method. Well, I'm not sure.

[A]

Maybe I want to say, first of all, that you're actually doing a great job. So even just you mentioning paying down the highest interest debt first is a great strategy, and that can labeled as what we call an avalanche debt payment strategy. So you pay the highest interest debt first, and then you keep going like that in order to save on how much you're paying overall in your debt. So that sounds like a very clever strategy to start with. I'm also wondering if you've considered debt consolidation at all.

[E]

I did, but I think that, like, I tried one and it just felt so kind of sketchy, for lack of better word. Like, I think maybe the type of debt consolidation matters a lot too, because they were like, yes, we're gonna, like, buy all your debt, but then you're gonna, like, not make payments and your credit score is gonna hurt for a little bit.

[B]

And then that sounds like debt settlement program, which is very risky and can leave you open to lawsuits. So I think you really dodged a bullet there. I'm glad you didn't go that route. What's your credit score, Melis?

[E]

I think it is 6:95. I think that might be the most recent estimate.

[B]

So you may be able to qualify for a 0 APR credit card, and you could potentially transfer some or all of your balance to this card. That would just give you so much more breathing room. We have roundups on the Nerdwall website that you can take a look at after our conversation and just see whether one might be a good fit for you. But my main thing with anyone who has debt is that I would love them to get out of it as quickly as possible with paying as little in interest as possible possible. And 0 APR cards are a great route for that.

[E]

Okay, that sounds amazing. I think that I'll look into that and see if I can qualify.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, you are at a point now, like, we've established where you have this great salary. You are beginning to sort of iron out some of the bumps that you've had in the past, and you're beginning to look long term. So let's talk about some of your longer term goals. What do you want from your finances, from your life? And how will paying off this debt be able to enable that for you?

[E]

Gosh, that's such a good question. I mean, I think that I've been in this space too, where, like, I. I don't know if many people can relate to just not feeling like you have had, like, I don't. I didn't grow up being like, I'm gonna be a PhD. Like, that was like, winging it, you know, something that came after many years of working, after undergrad. I never even thought that I would be in this position ever. You know, like, it feels like kind of a surreal in some ways. So I think that, like, my. I think long term planning is very difficult for me too, because I'm always just like, I always kind of resolved, like, I would never have a house. I would never have any of these things. So I think, like, now I'm like, I don't. I guess. I guess part of it that I don't know exactly. And some of my, like, short term planning are like, I want to have a company one day. I want to, like, travel and do, like, cool things, you know? So it's like, I think some of the. That might tie more to the emotional piece of it. If it's like, you're just in a space where you finally get to, like, think about those dreams.

[B]

I think it's worth taking some extra time and journaling or going for a really good walk or. I'm. I'm a runner. I do some of my best thinking on my runs and just begin to map out and envision what you might want to be doing 10 years down the road, 15 years down the road, with all that you've built so far, it will just continue to compound. Um, yeah. And yeah, thank you for being so open and honest with us. Cause I know it can be a really emotionally fraught experience to realize, okay, I'm in this place now where I am not just gasping for air. I can begin to make more room for myself and live.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you for your vulnerability, Melis. I know it's not easy to come on a Show like this especially and be so open about your finances. And I know financial stress can take a toll on you emotionally. And you've done such an incredible job of, you know, going out and getting that PhD and building your career and, you know, kind of overcoming the background that you came from and getting to where you are now. And you should be so proud of yourself.

[E]

Thank you. I think. Yeah. I mean, I'm a. I'm a cancer rising. I'm a cry about everything, you know.

[A]

I was just gonna ask, what's bringing on those tears for you in this moment?

[E]

Oh, I think just that I. Sometimes it is like that emotional weight. Like, I don't think that I have stopped to, like, think about how much that has impacted me, like, through so much. And I think that it's just so exciting to be like. Like, this is the part of my life, like, in my 30s, where I get to, like, actually dream and, like, have bigger goals than what I previously let for myself. But I didn't. I didn't, like, really. I should have unpacked that before the show.

[D]

No, that's what.

[B]

We're here to talk with you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's so hard sometimes to have moments to just sit and reflect, and you often need someone else's perspective to help you see just how much you've really done because you've come so far over the past few years, over the past two years. It's really something to be proud of. So I hope that you can take some time to think about that. And sometimes I think with spending habits, when it comes to having a much higher salary and making these big adjustments, I found myself in the past overspending because I was almost so giddy about being out of that space where I was just in survival mode. And I think this. All these things that you're talking to us about about, like, maybe overspending on perfume and like, not knowing what you want and having this amazing salary and getting all these really traumatic debt situations, they're all connected in a way. And the more that you can see that, the more you can understand that these, like, hyper fixations aren't just aberrations. It's actually kind of a defense mechanism to help you cope through all of these changes that you have going on.

[A]

Yeah. And it sounds like you're very self aware as well in what you're saying and what you've written to us. So you're aware of how your upbringing is impacting your finances. You're aware of what your triggers are when it comes to impulse. Spending. And some things that you can do is just put guardrails in place, since you are already an aware person, to help you kind of control your spending in those moments. So, for example, our loyal listeners know that I'm a Zara lover. I have a brick, which is a device that helps to restrict certain websites and things on your phone and apps. And I have bricked Zara, and that has dramatically reduced my spending on Zara. So we all know what our triggers are and where we're vulnerable. And it's just about putting things in place to help, you know, minimize the recurrence of those things happening. And I hope you're not beating yourself up. Nobody, including us, is perfect with their finances. We all kind of have ebbs and flows. That's very, very normal.

[E]

Yeah, I love that. Thanks for the tip. That sounds incredible. And I'm definitely going to break every perfumery.

[A]

So there you go.

[B]

Block it on your Google Maps app so you can't drive two hours in a Saturday to go check it out.

[A]

And another hack. I have a wish list in my notes app and before I buy, I write everything I really want to buy in my wish list. And it's just a pause. You may have heard this before. Literally pause. And that has helped me to reduce spending too, because I go back the next day or the next week and I'm like, actually, I don't really need that. Especially when that's compounded with me looking at what my goals are for the month or the year. I'm like, okay, well, if I make this expense, then it's going to take me further away from building my emergency fund or putting more in my brokerage account or whatever the goal is.

[E]

Yeah, I love that. I think, like, you identified maybe making the goals at all instead of just being like, ah, I'm just here, you know, Like, I think making some goals to work towards that can make you have a choose, right? Because if you have no goals and it's just like, oh, this thing in front of me immediately is the goal, you know? But if you're like, oh, I want to save for this awesome trip, it makes you have to choose, like, awesome trip or immediate satisfaction. So I'll think about that. And yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

[B]

Yeah, I'd love to talk about some specific goals that, that you might be able to establish for yourself. You mentioned to us when you wrote to us that you would love to go on a vacation with some whales, which sounds beautiful and romantic and spiritual all at the same time. And so That's a great kind of medium to short term goal. I'd like to hear about other savings goals. Do you have an emergency fund?

[E]

So very small. I think that again, like with so much interest being kind of paid every single month, my thought process was like, why save when you're like, it doesn't make sense to build up this cash savings when you're spending an equal or more amount in interest every single month. And so I resolved to like, okay, like have a couple thousand dollars set aside for basically an emergency, like if my pet needs a surgery or like a vet bill or something. But otherwise like I'm just trying to put everything towards the debts right now. And that's also something like I'm wondering if that's the best strategy. You know, I guess I would love to have like an emergency savings. I'd love to have like a cushion if I, you know, got laid off. Like in the sciences, a lot of people have been getting laid off recently. So I'd love to have like a three to six month emergency fund and then maybe like. Yeah, I guess I've never really thought about home ownership, but I guess for something like that, or property or a car or something like that, maybe some sort of like save high interest or high yield saving account where I can just kind of let that money work for me instead of just putting it in my bank account on like a debit card, you know, account would be really nice too.

[B]

Well, if you don't have a high yield savings account, we are such broken records about these on the, on smart money because they are just earning you more interest than any old bank accounts going to get you. So check out our roundups, be sure to just look into it because it's just a smart, easy thing that you can do. I like to hear that you have a few thousand dollars set aside for emergencies. Often that can cover something that will pop up and help you avoid going into debt once something does happen. If you aren't regularly saving an emergency fund, I know money's tight and you're putting everything towards your debts right now. But just for sake of building habits, it can be really helpful to put away even $25 a month just so you have that regularity and you know that you're saving on an ongoing basis. And then once your debts are lower, you can begin to up that amount. But at least you have sort of the administrative infrastructure going in the background, much like your debt payment plans that you're on where you can just continue to automate your finances and that alleviates a lot of the administrative burden that people who are neurodiverse or have ADHD can experience. And that can just kind of shut you down from making any progress on these goals.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to add as well that you don't have to just choose one goal. Right. Again, depending on your. How much expenses that you have, sorry, income you have left after you've paid all your core expenses and your debts, you may have extra money that you can put towards emergency savings as well. So it doesn't have to be, you know, pay down debt first and then do the emergency savings and then invest. You can do all simultaneously. But that does bring me to a question about your income. You wrote us your income, but you also told us that you get paid in batches. So are you not a W2 employee? Are you a contractor? Are you self employed? What is your situation there?

[E]

Yeah, great question. So I am technically self employed. I'm a contractor. So that is sort of like you're responsible for paying your own health insurance and stuff. And they do just kind of give you a lump sum, which is like, why, you know. But it does mean that like I do, I have hired, in addition to my attorney/CPA to hire the back taxes. I do have another person who's helping me with this year is like self employment. I think I will have to pay like self employment taxes, county taxes, state taxes and federal taxes, which is roughly half the paycheck, you know, So I think that is like another thing that's a little bit of a stressor because it's like on one hand when you have that lump sum, it's like, awesome. I'm just gonna put this towards the debt right away. But you also need to be saving roughly half your paycheck for the next year's taxes. So it's like that has been like the hardest part of like, what do I do? How do I. Like there are so many expenses coming with this in this bump. But yeah, that's been like a hard thing to tackle.

[A]

That is hard. And I. When I think in my first year of being self employed and registering my business, I loved seeing a lump sum that wasn't taxed in my account every month. And I was not putting aside estimated taxes. I don't know if you're aware about estimated taxes. And then tax time came and it was like, oops, I have this huge tax bill to pay. So what is your situation in terms of saving for the tax bill at the moment? Because I know when you wrote us you Also said you're concerned about your 2027 tax bill, and it may be. How much did you say it may be? A couple of thousand dollars.

[E]

The. For 2027?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Like, 70,000. Probably at least. Yeah. Of taxes. So, yeah, right now, I mean, honestly, my sort of. So my sort of, like, neurotic plan is like, just paid if I can get some of these. Because right now, the eight or nine payment plans is just taking so much in addition to, like, quite expensive rent. And so my thinking was, like, if I can just dump all this money towards the payment plans and then be reduced to just, like, my federal student loans and federal taxes, that would just be two payment plans. Right. That would be amazing. And then I can use all that excess money that was typically, like, thousands going to these different sources and then combine that and just rigorously save for the next year's taxes. So I was kind of like, okay, if I can just pay off the credit card and all the private loans five to six months from now, then I can just take all of the rest of that income and just be like, live, like, you know, extremely tight and then just use that money to sort of, like, aggressively save for the next year's taxes. But again, it's not like. It's not a maybe ideal strategy.

[A]

There's also a risk there with underpayment penalties by the IRS if you don't pay quarterly taxes. Have you experienced that this is your first year, right, as a contractor?

[E]

This is. Yeah, I've been here since September.

[A]

Yeah, I've had to pay underpayment penalties before. They're not fun. So the easiest thing to do, honestly, is to pay quarterly taxes, and you are required to do that or you're going to be hit with more penalties and fees. And we don't want any more penalties and fees for you. How it usually works is you pay them quarterly, as it says you estimate. So you would take that 70,000 and break it down into four quarters, and that's how much you would ideally be paying the IRS every quarter to try to avoid those underpayment taxes.

[B]

And, Melissa, you said you're working with a tax professional currently. Is that correct?

[E]

I am. I do have a cpa. She's great, but she's also quite busy, so I think that I just need to check in with her. I try to get an estimate of what she thinks I owe for last year so we can update that IRS payment plan and then, yeah, kind of just be able to, like, so, yeah, kind of paying that off at the Same time as saving for the next year's taxes. It's amazing that you could be making this much money and be like, right, wow. It's gonna be some years before we're out of the hole for sure.

[B]

So, Melis, we've talked through a few different areas of your finances. I'm wondering if there's any other key spots that you'd like us to explore with you.

[E]

I mean, I guess the one like, you know, you kind of already mentioned this, but, like, I have been dying to do this, like, travel trip that it's just been like, every single year. It's like, you can't afford it and it's irresponsible. You can't afford it and it's irresponsible. And I'm trying to get that point where like. Like, it has just been killing me to, like, every year pass it up. And I know that it's probably, like, irresponsible, but I just wonder if it's. If you see any potential, like, how would you approach that if you were in my situation where it's like. Like, it's kind of like, for fun, but it's also like, I really do envision starting a company based off of whale biology. And so it's like, how do I sort of advance this personal and professional goal that I think would just be like the trip of my life, you know, like. But when did you factor that into, like, oh, this is something that I could actually pursue versus let's take care and get to a better place financially first.

[B]

I think you could reframe that a little bit because you can say right now you're saying, I can't afford it and it's irresponsible. You could be telling yourself a different story that you can't afford it and it's aspirational because that's something that you want to do with your money over the long term. It's probably not going to happen this year. And you could also, if this is tied to your profession and your academic studies, there may be grants available that could help you fund this. So look into that. I mean, yes, we've seen a lot of money dry up in the sciences over the past year or so, but doesn't mean there's nothing available. I would love to see you get some money that's not your own to fund it. This trip. That would be pretty cool.

[A]

And if you can't, may lease something that could keep you motivated because you do deserve to go on this trip. And life isn't all about paying down debt and, you know, paying bills. You could create Sean's favorite thing, and it's slowly becoming mine as well. A sinking fund for this trip. And even if you're only putting $100 in there a month, it gives you some motivation, right? You know, that you're working towards that goal, and it makes it feel tangible versus this thing that may happen one day. And you know that you're building a separate fund to put towards those travel expenses. And as you said, you're aggressively paying down your debt when your income frees up a little bit. You wrote to us and said that you may move back home, so you may have even more income that's freed up. You said around $3,000. Maybe you can increase the amount that you're putting into that travel fund.

[E]

I love that. I think that's, like, a big goal for sure, and I'm lucky. I wish everyone had the opportunity to do these things. But, like, yeah, like, I think moving back home and we'll be able to save, like, the rent and then I can kind of.

[A]

That'll.

[E]

I think that would be kind of the biggest way to help not only tackle the debt, but then also free up some time to. To think about maybe these sort of, like, travel dreams. So I think that's. That's a. A big piece towards, like, the financial freedom is, like, trying to reduce the bills as much as possible so that you can, you know, afford the debts for sure. And fun things, too.

[B]

Well, you're in a really exciting place right now where you're turning a corner. You're beginning to map out what you're going to be doing with your finances over the long term. I'm sure right now it probably feels tough being bogged down by all these debts, but you are absolutely doing the right thing on a number of different areas. We're really proud of you. I know that. So please be proud of yourself and just keep working away at it. It's not going to happen overnight, but you're doing everything right.

[E]

Thank you so much. You both are phenomenal. Thank you for helping me and so many other people feel like we can talk about this freely and, you know, reduce some of that shame that's associated with it and just get to a life that we're excited about. So I think every single person on earth deserves that. So thank you.

[B]

Well, thank you. We really appreciate your honesty and your candidness in this conversation. Please keep us posted because we love hearing from our listeners and how everything goes for you.

[A]

And before you go Melisse, you have to tell us, out of our whole conversation, what is maybe one or two things that you plan to do or maybe in terms of the questions you asked us, what are some answers that you got that you plan to implement?

[E]

Amazing question. I thought you're about to ask me about my favorite perfume, and I was

[A]

like, oh, oh, oh, oh, you got it. You got it. Okay, I want to know that, too.

[E]

Okay. Okay. First, the lessons. Definitely going to. I love the idea, first of all, of, like, looking like there are so many funding opportunities available out there. So for this sort of dream, these dreams that we have, like, there are, like, small business grants, there are research grants. Like, look at, like, help people pay you to do the things that you want to do. I love that.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Definitely going to look at high yield accounts and a sinking fund for trips like that if I can't find funding. And then I think, yeah, one of the biggest things is just, like, making sure that my team, you know, is available to help. So, like, talking with my CPA and making sure that I have, like, a plan that I can build for the next year. I'm. I'm really excited about that and looking at the roundup because I think I need to look at some of the resources that you already have shared, too.

[B]

Yes. I'll add one last piece of homework. Is that 0 APR credit card, balance transfer card to see if that might be an option for you.

[E]

Yes. Okay. I have that listed right here too.

[B]

We love giving homework to our listeners.

[A]

We love homework.

[E]

Like, there's nothing.

[B]

I want more.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Please update us. We love updates. So please update us. Let us know where you getting what you do, and we're wishing you all the best. And if you do take that vacation, please send us some pictures.

[E]

I will. I will let you know. Absolutely. Thank you so much for your help.

[B]

Yeah, Melis, thank you so much for talking with us.

[E]

All right, thank you so much.

[B]

Again, before we go, what is your favorite perfume?

[E]

Right now, I'm really hyper fixated on this small perfume house in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is like, I'm from North Carolina called Source, and it's, like, very witchy. Like, it's just the coolest combinations of scents. Very gourmand, but also aromatic. And there's this one called Vampire Wife, which is like, blood orange wedding cake. Like, it is just the coolest combination of scents. And I just feel like it makes me just feel powerful and exciting. Like, I can't. I'll go to the grocery store and be like, you know, like, I live in it.

[A]

Even if I'm channeling.

[B]

You are selling it. We need to get you a brand deal at this company.

[E]

I love the small businesses.

[B]

So that's, that's the list. Well, thank you so much, Melies. Let's be in touch.

[E]

Okay, sounds great. Thank you all. Bye.

[B]

That's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So please send them to us via the Nerd Hotline. You can call us or text us at 901-730-6373. It's 901-730-NERD. You can also shoot us an email like melies [e-mail] or leave us a comment at Spotify or YouTube. Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment or perfume advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

[A]

Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that includes Apple podcasts, Spotify and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. You can also follow us like and subscribe on YouTube if you want to see our wonderful faces. This episode was produced by Tess Figland, Hilary Georgie, help with editing and a huge thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all of their help.

[B]

And with that said, until next time,

[E]

turn to the nerds.

[B]

Hey Smart Money listeners. We have a brand new email newsletter and it's completely worth signing up for, especially since it's free.

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Every issue has clips from recent episodes, links to stories you might have missed, and also behind the scenes commentary from me, Sean and our producer.

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Some of it is stuff that doesn't make it into the episodes, the context, the moments, the takes we didn't plan on sharing.

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You can think of it as the group chat for Smart Money fans. I'm going to be sharing inside details about parenting and money. Yes, I'll be sharing all the juicy

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stuff and I'll have loads of tips about what I'm doing in my garden. So if you want to putz around your garden like I do, sign up for the newsletter. And also, you know, we have money, tips and all that kind of stuff. So head to NerdWallet.com podcast to sign up. Again, it's free.

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That's NerdWallet.com podcast. We'll see you in your inbox.

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