Do DINKs Have More Fun (and Money)?

Summary

Smart Money Happy Hour: Do DINKs Have More Fun (and Money)?

Episode Release Date: November 21, 2024
Hosts: Rachel Cruze and George Kamel
Podcast: Smart Money Happy Hour with Rachel Cruze and George Kamel

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Smart Money Happy Hour, Rachel Cruze and George Kamel delve into the intriguing world of DINKs—Dual Income, No Kids couples. Hosted by the Ramsey Network, the podcast blends financial expertise with candid discussions on contemporary lifestyles, aiming to provide listeners with unfiltered insights into affording a life they love. This episode, aptly titled "Do DINKs Have More Fun (and Money)?", explores the multifaceted reasons behind the rising trend of couples choosing to remain child-free, the financial implications of such a decision, and personal anecdotes from the hosts' own parenting journeys.

Understanding DINKs

Rachel and George kick off the conversation by defining DINKs and setting the stage for their discussion. Rachel humorously remarks, “Like, freedom living right before kids—dual income, no kids” (00:31), highlighting the allure of financial and personal freedom that comes with this lifestyle choice. They acknowledge that while DINKs enjoy certain privileges, the decision to forego children is deeply personal and multifaceted.

Reasons for Choosing the DINK Lifestyle

The hosts explore several compelling reasons why couples opt to remain DINKs:

1. Infertility and Choice: Rachel cites a 2021 Pew Research Center study revealing that 44% of adults aged 18 to 49 without children do not plan to have any. She adds, “Not everyone chooses to have children; sometimes it’s not of their choosing” (01:58). The conversation acknowledges that infertility plays a significant role, with advancements in medicine allowing individuals to consider parenthood later in life or through adoption.

2. Career Focus: George emphasizes the challenges of balancing a demanding career with parenthood, stating, “It’s hard to be a parent and work 60 hours a week” (03:04). The DINK lifestyle often allows for greater career advancement and professional development without the added responsibilities of raising children.

3. Enhanced Travel Opportunities: Both hosts agree that the ability to travel freely is a significant perk for DINKs. Rachel notes, “The ability to travel is so much easier today... If you want to live in Costa Rica for half the year, that’s just tougher to do [with kids]” (03:47). This flexibility enables DINKs to explore different cultures and lifestyles without the logistical constraints that children impose.

4. Individualism and Self-Sufficiency: George points out, “As a society, we’ve become more self-sustaining and maybe self-centered” (04:08). The focus on personal fulfillment and self-care often takes precedence over traditional family structures, allowing individuals to craft a life aligned with their personal goals and interests.

5. Concerns About the World’s State: The chaotic state of the world is also a deterrent. Rachel shares, “I don’t want to bring my kids into this world” (04:53), reflecting a growing sentiment among many who are apprehensive about future uncertainties and environmental challenges.

6. Gender Equality and Autonomy: George highlights how increased opportunities for women have empowered many to prioritize education and careers over motherhood. “Women can earn money more independently. They can take a step back and think about what kind of life and career do I want” (05:20).

7. Avoiding Generational Trauma: Both hosts discuss the desire to break free from familial patterns of pain and trauma. Rachel says, “I don’t know if I want to bring kids into this generational mess of a family” (05:43), underscoring a commitment to creating healthier family dynamics or choosing alternatives like adoption.

Financial Implications of Raising Kids

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the cost of raising children, which both Rachel and George agree is a substantial factor influencing the decision to remain DINKs.

• Average Cost: Rachel introduces startling statistics, noting that raising a child to age 18 costs approximately $310,000 (09:13), equating to about $17,000 per year or $1,400 per month. This figure encompasses expenses like healthcare, education, childcare, and general upbringing.

• Breakdown of Expenses: George elaborates on the various costs, including daycare, diapers, baby gear, school tuition, and city-targeted extracurricular activities. Rachel adds, “Insurance premiums continue to go up... strollers, car seats, bigger cars” (10:08), emphasizing how children necessitate upgrades and additional expenditures in a family’s financial landscape.

• Cost Management Strategies:

  • Budgeting: Both hosts advocate for meticulous budgeting as a lifeline for parents. George mentions using the EveryDollar app, saying, “We always go back to Whitney and I always go, okay, what’s in the budget” (23:26). This ensures that all family expenses are accounted for and helps prevent financial surprises.
  • Cost-Saving Measures: Rachel suggests practical steps like opting for affordable diaper brands and avoiding unnecessary high-end purchases, while George discusses utilizing nanny shares or part-time parenting roles to reduce childcare costs.

Personal Experiences as Parents

Rachel and George share their personal journeys into parenthood, offering relatable anecdotes and reflecting on how their relationships and financial priorities have evolved since having children.

• Decision to Have Kids: Rachel recounts her initial reluctance to have children and how witnessing a friend’s childbirth sparked her desire to become a mother (13:01). George reflects on running out of other goals and embracing parenthood as the next exciting chapter in life (14:14).

• Relationship Dynamics:

  • Rachel observes, “When you try to talk to each other, it’s like, oh, yeah. People just screaming at you” (20:03), highlighting the challenges of maintaining intimate communication amidst the chaos of parenting.
  • George notes that parenting deepens their connection but also introduces a more transactional dynamic, emphasizing the need for intentional moments of levity and fun to keep their relationship strong (22:35).

• Financial Adjustments: Both hosts discuss the necessity of reallocating their financial resources towards their children’s needs. Rachel shares her experience of unexpected diaper expenses, while George mentions the financial impact of losing a spouse’s income due to staying home with the kids (15:32, 16:22).

Financial Advice for Parents and DINKs

Rachel and George offer valuable tips for managing finances whether one chooses to have children or remain a DINK:

• Budgeting Tools: Emphasizing the importance of budgeting, both hosts recommend tools like the EveryDollar app to track and plan expenses meticulously (23:26). This ensures that families can anticipate and manage costs effectively.

• Debt Management: When asked whether parents should be debt-free before having children, both agree that while financial readiness is beneficial, it shouldn’t be a prerequisite. Rachel states, “Don’t wait until you’re fully ready, because you’re never gonna be ready” (25:00), encouraging couples to embrace the journey while maintaining financial discipline.

• College Funding: The hosts discuss the controversial topic of whether parents should owe their children a college education. Rachel asserts, “Parents should not be forced to pay for their kids’ college” (26:16), advocating for viewing it as a gift rather than an entitlement and encouraging proactive planning to ensure children can pursue education debt-free.

• Protecting Online Privacy: Although briefly touched upon, the importance of safeguarding family information online is highlighted. Rachel advises using services like DeleteMe to remove personal data from the internet, stating, “Getting your data removed from the Internet is key” (17:37).

Final Considerations

As the episode wraps up, Rachel and George summarize their discussions with profound insights:

• Honesty and Self-Reflection: Rachel emphasizes the necessity of being honest about personal and financial desires, stating, “Be honest with yourself about what you want for your life and your money” (29:28).

• Inclusivity and Empathy: George encourages maintaining strong relationships with both single and parent friends, promoting empathy and avoiding judgment between different lifestyle choices (30:24).

• Embracing Financial Control: Both hosts conclude by reinforcing that financial control is essential in navigating family decisions, whether it involves having children or not. Rachel remarks, “When you are in that position... be smart about this and be wise in every aspect of life” (30:24).

Notable Quotes

• Rachel Cruze: “Don’t wait until you’re fully ready, because you’re never gonna be ready” (25:00).

• George Kamel: “Privacy is the new currency. We’re all like, please get me out of here” (18:28).

• Rachel Cruze: “Parents should not be forced to pay for their kids’ college” (26:16).

• George Kamel: “Our budget is the source of truth” (23:26).

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This episode of Smart Money Happy Hour provides a comprehensive exploration of the DINK lifestyle, thoughtfully balancing statistical insights with personal narratives. Rachel Cruze and George Kamel offer listeners nuanced perspectives on the financial and personal implications of choosing to remain child-free, making it a valuable listen for anyone contemplating this significant life decision.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hey, guys, I'm Rachel Cruz.

[B]

I'm George Camel.

[A]

And this is Smart Money Happy Hour. Cheers, George.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Very refreshing.

[B]

That's a delight.

[A]

I mean, not mad at all.

[B]

It'd be hard. It's hard to be mad at that.

[A]

I don't get mad a lot.

[B]

It's inoffensive.

[A]

That does not make me mad. All right, this is the show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events.

[B]

And today, we're talking about dinks. If you know, you know. And if you don't, we'll tell you. That's the point of this podcast.

[A]

Before we talk about dinks, shall we talk about drinks?

[B]

I did it in a question.

[A]

Did you see that? That was good up at the end. Should we talk about drinks?

[B]

We are sipping on and Isn't She Lovely? Which I believe is named after producer Kelly Davis. That's the etymology. It's where it came from. I don't make this up, Kelly. And it's a lovely drink so far. So stick around till the end of the episode. We're going to give you our rating. Reveal the cost per glass and, as always, the recipes in the show notes, if you want to skip ahead.

[A]

Yep. All right, George, have you seen the Internet trend dinks? But, like, I know that term has been around, which is. We'll just. Spoiler alert. Should we?

[B]

Sure. I was going to wait till the very end now.

[A]

I'm just kidding. Just tell them dual income, no kids. But there's like a trend on Instagram where they're like, we're dinks. Of course. We sleep eight hours a night on a tempur Pedic night mattress.

[B]

Of course, we take three week vacations to Europe.

[A]

Yeah, we're dinks. Right. So it's like this, like, freedom living Right. Before kids, dual income, no kids.

[B]

Hit me with some stuff.

[A]

Okay, so in 2021 from Pew Research center, they found that 44% of people from ages 18 to 49 who are currently without kids say that they are not likely to ever have children.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Isn't that interesting?

[B]

44%, that's a big range. 18 to 49, which is like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Adults who aren't retired. And half of them basically said, yeah, probably not going to happen.

[A]

Yeah. And 44%, that's high. It's close to half.

[B]

Wow. Well, even if you look back 100 years ago, having kids was more of a financial necessity than a choice. Like, you needed the village now that child labor laws Exist. You know, you can't pull your 14 kids out of grade school to have them be unpaid labor. The family farm for harvest.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Different times we live in.

[A]

Rachel, There are some legitimate reasons though. While people, you know, maybe don't want kids of their choosing and then sometimes it's not of their choosing. Right. The idea of having children, everyone's got.

[B]

Their reasons for sure.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean first and foremost, why people aren't. When you look, I mean infertility at.

[B]

This point we should call that out at the very top here because a lot of people want kids. They're unable to have children.

[A]

Yes. And that's growing at a rapid rate as well. Right. So that's a whole conversation going on. But that's one reason. Another is career. Some people just, you know, they want to dedicate their time and their energy towards their career and it's hard to.

[B]

Be a parent and work 60 hours a week and do all these, you know, grow your career or get further education. All that's just harder when you're a parent.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Increased access to travel. This one's interesting. The ability to travel has highlighted alternative cultures, ways of living that are communal but less nuclear, family focused. And travel's tougher with kids. So if you want to go, like I'm going to live in Costa Rica for half the year, that's just tougher to do. Pulling kids around and pulling them out of school and all that stuff for sure.

[A]

And I do think the ability to travel is so much easier today than it was you think back in like the 80s or the 70s. Right. I mean like you could, like there's apps and deals and like you can get to places, be informed so much faster. Right. So even that, the travel opportunity, I.

[B]

Feel like it's a two week trip. You're like, I got to find a sitter for two weeks. And if you don't have family that you trust or that's local, that's hard.

[A]

To do it for. Sure. And also with medicine, George, I mean all the advancements, you know, health wise people are able to have kids later in life and even space them out if they choose to. Right. So even the timeline on which you have children. Yep. There's going to be some planning there.

[B]

Another one that's interesting is just individualism. As a society, we've become more self sustaining and maybe self centered. I'm not saying that you're selfish if you don't have kids, but there's a piece of it where you don't have to reproduce, to have a life that feels full and social and entertaining. You can just pay for things maybe, but I would argue that have money. I feel like I have a purpose I didn't know existed. Now as a father, you know what I mean? It's not to say you don't have purpose if you don't have kids. I just feel like there's this wow. There's a responsibility of like I get to raise this human up to hopefully be a great adult.

[A]

There's a whole other part of, yeah. Life that opens up. Yes.

[B]

But some people just go, nah, I'm good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's fine.

[A]

They do. Also a chaotic world. You know, we see the news, we see what's happening.

[B]

I mean, it's just one I really have empathy for. I get it.

[A]

I mean, some people are like, I don't want to bring my kids in to. I don't want to bring kids into this world. And you know, for some people, like, it's going, it's getting worse and worse and worse. And why bring kids in? That's a reason.

[B]

It's a very sad, pessimistic outlook. But I get it. If you just look at headlines and go, listen, the world's going crazy and I don't want my kid in this environment and I'm going to have to deal with this and I'm responsible for what happens to them. So I get that. Another one is equal opportunity. The ability for women to have their own bank accounts and work the same jobs. That's only a few decades old. So I think that level of autonomy, you know, women can earn money more independently. They're able to take a step back and think about what kind of life and career do I want? And that doesn't always involve kids. Whereas back in the day it was more traditional roles and kids. You have kids, you take care of.

[A]

The family, that's what you do. Yep. For sure.

[B]

Times have changed.

[A]

Also the generational baggage, pack it up and there's a lot of it. Let's unpack it, if you will. You know what I mean? No, but really all this self help people have become more self aware, seeking therapy and all of this. And I think the more you realize, oh my gosh, I don't know if I want to bring kids into this generational mess of a family even.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's the world and then the family dynamic. But there's been a lot of pain and trauma and some people are like, I don't want to bring kids into that.

[B]

I don't Want to repeat the cycle. I don't want to pass on this DNA. And I think we believe that you can change your family tree.

[A]

Yes. Oh, and you don't have to. Just spiritually as well. Yeah, in every way, for sure. There's also adoption, so the need for adoption, foster care, all of that. I think, again, as we get more information into the world, even parts like this of life, you are exposed to and realize, oh, my gosh, real numbers, real data. Seeing and experiencing, you know, children that need a home. And so, yeah, I think people choose that avenue. Actually had a lady on my show, George, Marcy, and they chose her and her husband not to have kids of their own. She didn't even know if she could or not. She was like, regardless of what my body can do, we're choosing to foster, to adopt. It's like, what they went in.

[B]

That's.

[A]

So some people are doing that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And that's expensive. Which might mean we're going to wait later in life until we have our finance in order grow our clients.

[A]

Adopt, though, on average is $5,000. It's the cheapest avenue.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Out of domestic adoption and international. Yeah. W. Okay, we talked about that.

[B]

And last but not least, and the main thing we're talking about today, money. That is one of the biggest reasons it's expensive to have kids, whether natural IVF adoption, raising them to age 18. Which is why our dink friends out there are leaning into the season, and they're making the most of it. Making tik toks.

[A]

Yeah. While we're out here, would y'all say this is. I think infertility is a big one for sure. Why people aren't having kids, aren't able to. But money. I think money is, like, top three on the list. I feel like when I hear people say we don't want kids, it's because they're expensive. I feel like that's, like. It's a. That's a. That's a big one. So, yeah, I would see career infertility, money, I think just the ones that I hear my.

[B]

Like, the general responsibility, I think, is. Is not exciting for a lot of people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of another sacrifice.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

I mean, it takes a lot of physical, emotional, mental energy.

[A]

Yep, for sure.

[B]

Especially in those first few years. And then I don't know beyond that. But from what I've heard, it can get crazy.

[A]

Gets crazy.

[B]

You have. How old are your kids now?

[A]

Nine, seven, four.

[B]

And you feel like this is a great season for you. Guys.

[A]

Yes. This is the most fun we've had.

[B]

Is it less chaotic or just chaotic but fun?

[A]

Yeah, different chaos, but they're fun. They're like, you can talk to them and hang out and, you know, I'm.

[B]

Looking forward to that.

[A]

Not as much Charles, he's still 4. Like, he's still little. But Amelia, like, when they hit that.

[B]

Like, sweet age, Amelia feels like a tiny adult. She feels very mature.

[A]

She's an old soul.

[B]

I could just talk to her right now as an adult.

[A]

She's so sweet. I know. They all are so great. But that's a sweet age. Cause I still, like, she wants to. Like, she still, like, holds my hands when we're walking. Like, she still, like, wants to be with me, but yet she can, like, make scrambled eggs and get herself dressed. Like, she can, like, do things.

[B]

Wow, scrambled. That's more than most adults can do.

[A]

I taught my kids scrambled eggs and pancakes.

[B]

That's all you need. Honestly, I don't know what else you need. You're not gonna thrive in life, but you can survive pretty good.

[A]

You get protein and a little cup pancake.

[B]

Best of all, you don't have to do it.

[A]

That's right. That's. That's the goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Start to get lazier and lazier if you can.

[B]

So I recently did an episode on my YouTube channel about this very topic, and the overwhelming response from people was the financial margin that's required to have and raise a kid. And one stat we found was that on average, it takes $310,000 to raise a child to age 18. So over.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Divide that out and that breaks down to about 17,000 a year or $1,400 per month if. If you distribute evenly, which, as you know, some seasons are more expensive than others, certain ages. But yeah, I mean, in daycare, that could be 1400 bucks alone without food and clothes.

[A]

I mean, even from the beginning, when you find out that you're expecting, it's like, okay, doctors appointments and co pays and the ultrasound bill and hospital bills when you have the baby. And then you go into diapers, bottles, baby gear, formula. Insurance premiums continue to go up. The more, you know, kids you have, the more people on your plan. Then you talk about, yeah, daycare, you talk about school tuition. If you're doing a private school. I mean, all of that comes into play. And then strollers when you're traveling. Yeah, strollers.

[B]

The travel stroller.

[A]

You got a bigger car, the car seat. You got three kids. You gotta get. Gotta get a bigger car. Gotta get a minivan.

[B]

Hey, don't put that on me, Ricky Bobby.

[A]

Did y'all ever have a minivan?

[B]

We have one now.

[A]

We.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gosh, I knew I liked.

[B]

Eventually, we all succumb to the minivan, and then we all brag about the minivan.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is that a.

[A]

And then we'll get out of it.

[B]

All right, moving on. Let's talk about this.

[A]

It's just very expensive. So. So giving birth.

[B]

Let's talk about giving birth.

[A]

On average, costs $18,865 without health insurance, and that includes the pregnancy, delivery, postpartum care.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Daycare for one week. On average, $321.

[B]

That checks out.

[A]

16,000 a year. It's a lot, y'all. It's a lot.

[B]

So to be fair, when we're like, just have kids, it's gonna be easy and fun. There is a financial requirement. And here's the deal. We know that even if you're not financially ready, you figure it out, you make sacrifices, and you make it work.

[A]

Yeah. And let me just say this, too. There is. I mean, besides. Besides a couple of these things. But overall, there is a spectrum. Right. Even the stroller. We joke about it. They'll be fine in a plastic umbrella stroller. That's $30 from Walmart. Right. Like, they're gonna. Like. There's a spectrum on all this stuff of what you can purchase and buy. You can make it as expensive as you want, right? To a degree. Some of these categories don't change, but some of them we can. We can be okay, right?

[B]

Yeah. I think we have way more information than our parents did, and that's caused us to make very different decisions. So my wife is, I would say medium cr. Like, she gets the organic, like, goat toddler formula instead of the whatever. That's pretty crunchy, you know, so she's. She's up there. And so it costs more for all of the babies.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because she wants higher quality foods and items.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not a judgment call of like, well, everyone should do this. It's just what we do for our family, and we build it into the budget.

[A]

Yep. But to your point, it's more expensive, right?

[B]

It is very expensive.

[A]

All right. So we've been on both sides of the coin, so I thought it'd be fun to do a little pro and con list, you know, have a little challenge in here. You know, I love a good game.

[B]

She loves a competition.

[A]

Love a good challenge.

[B]

Only if she wins.

[A]

So it'll be good. I think it's going to.

[B]

Okay, so we're going to take turns going through some questions, talking about the cost and reality of having kids. Some are serious, some are fun, and all will be answered in full, transparent. See?

[A]

Well done.

[B]

After your drinks, dinks. Joke. I had to. I had to have one.

[A]

That was good.

[B]

That was good. All right, let's get to the questions. How did you and your spouse know you're ready to have kids? Was there a buzzfeed quiz you took? Why are you laughing? That's how we did it.

[A]

I did not want kids for a while. I was like, winston would have had them a year in the marriage.

[B]

Wow. He was just ready to be a dad.

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure. He was like, yeah, I'm great when you are. And I was the classic, this is so Rachel. But I didn't want him. I was like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And then one of our friends had a baby, and I went to the hospital.

[B]

Baby fever.

[A]

Nick and Dana island, never forget them. Went in, saw the baby and I last. We got into the elevator and I said, I think I want to have kids.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think I'm ready for a baby now.

[B]

Was it a cute. Must have been a cute baby to inspect.

[A]

I know. I don't know what it was. It was one of those classic. I had seen other babies up until that point.

[B]

I know you've done this. When you see a friend's baby and you can't say, oh, how cute. What do you say?

[A]

They're so precious.

[B]

They're precious in God's eyes.

[A]

No, you can't say that.

[B]

That is a little bit too far.

[A]

That's too far.

[B]

Very specific.

[A]

Actually, I say precious a lot. So just because if I call your baby precious, that doesn't mean I think they're ugly.

[B]

But when you saw my baby, Mia was super cute.

[A]

Super cute. I know.

[B]

Gorgeous. Beautiful.

[A]

I know. Yeah. Beautiful, Beautiful baby. Yes. That was us. It was me. It was just literally a flip of the switch. I was ready. Five years later, I'm ready. How about you?

[B]

I think we just ran out of other things to do, like goals. You know what I mean? It's like, all right, got a dog, got another dog, got a house. All right, now what? You know what I mean?

[A]

What's the next step?

[B]

So I think once you just run out of entertainment, you go, all right, let's let the baby entertainment.

[A]

Have some kids.

[B]

So I think that's what happened. But also, Whitney's age, she was starting to go, hey, listen, I'm in my early 30s, you know, I don't want to wait too much longer to start because what if I want three kids and we want to space them out? So there is a bit of kind of family planning you got to do there, for sure. And so it felt like game on.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

After dealing with two French bulldogs and wiping their butts, it's like, what's another? But what is one more?

[A]

But I still can. I just can't believe I'll do that. I can't. I just can't.

[B]

Would you not do it for your daughter?

[A]

My baby? Yes. I meant your dog.

[B]

There's not much difference with a dog. My daughter doesn't sleep in the bed with us. My dogs do. That's a level of intimacy that very few know.

[A]

That is. That is true.

[B]

Sometimes I hold her paw at night. It's very comforting.

[A]

I can't believe.

[B]

Where's John Deloney? When you need to be psychoanalyzed, Just.

[A]

Like the holding the dog paw is.

[B]

That's real life. Okay, next question.

[A]

What's one surprising cost of having kids that you didn't expect?

[B]

Oh, that's a good one. I will say the formula. I didn't realize, especially the type that we get, how expensive it is and how much they go through.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As far as cost goes, because my wife stays home now, so we don't have daycare, but we also lost her income.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

So that's a. That's a cost here and here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Totally worth it. How about you?

[A]

I would say, baby wise, it was the diapers. I remember Winston going out to get diapers, like, I don't know, the first week or something. I was like, just get that little pack and then we'll go out this weekend and get more. You go through a pack in like a day?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's crazy. So I remember thinking, wait, what? Oh, my gosh. And you gotta buy a big box, and that's expensive. I mean, they're expensive, so. And I didn't get, like, the crap. I mean, I just got Pampers, so it wasn't even, like, nicer.

[B]

I thought that was the good name brand.

[A]

No, I think there's like, the organic, the honest brand. I mean, there's like, oh, yeah. Something like the organic diapers, which we didn't do.

[B]

It's disposable underwear, guys. Let's remember that. That's what we're talking about.

[A]

Did you do. Did you want to do. Did she want to do cloth diapers at All.

[B]

No, I wouldn't have let that. Now I get it, like some people.

[A]

Are because that's a money saver. I bet there's some people out there.

[B]

I don't think I could. I don't have the stomach for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, we had a snake in our garage the other day and I couldn't even look at it in the face. I couldn't look at it. I said, everyone else deal with it. I'm going to go in. I'll be ready to hit 911 when the time is right.

[A]

So clean in a diaper, Weak stomach.

[B]

Not going to be cleaning out.

[A]

Has anything happened so far with Mia that's made you, like, be sick?

[B]

Oh, like throw up, blowouts, all that stuff?

[A]

Weak stomach.

[B]

No. I feel like I've held strong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I did it for Whitney, you know, she needs strength. And I think I exude strength in our marriage.

[A]

You think strength.

[B]

But sometimes I will walk in that nursery and go, nope, let's turn on a fan. I'll be back in three. It's so aggressive.

[A]

Sometimes it's a lot. Sometimes it's a lot. Okay, George, so what do you think the best way to protect your family from online scammers is?

[B]

Is this a trick question?

[A]

Maybe delete me. Yes, you got it right. So delete me is a great service. You all that you sign up and they go and they take all of your info off of the Internet. Data broker. Websites will go and buy your data because sites that you've put your data on that you didn't even know sold your data. I mean, what is happening with the world? This is the world we don't want to bring kids into, let's be honest. So the scammers, the spammers, they are out there. So getting your data removed from the Internet is so key. And delete me helps you with that.

[B]

They do it all for you. And so I've saved 44 hours, according to their report of time. It saved me from finding and removing all of that myself. And they even have family plans that you can add spouses and kids and all their info to so they can be scrubbed off the Internet. Because I think privacy is the new. It's like the new currency. We're all like, in a data driven world, we're all just like, please get me out of here.

[A]

Yeah, don't. Yeah, don't be selling my phone number people, my home address. Like, it's just crazy. And delete me. They're so thorough that when you do your profile that it Pulls like your in laws are. They're like, is this your in laws?

[B]

Do you live here? I'm like, yes, yes.

[A]

I mean, like, it's wild. What is out there? So again, delete me is such a great service.

[B]

Very affordable. Check it out. Just go to joindeleteme.com smartmoney and you'll get 20% off for being a valued listener and viewer.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

Okay, click the link in the description. We'll put it down there.

[A]

George, here's a little quiz for you. Name three ways to save on child care off the top of your head.

[B]

Oh, gosh. Have amazing family that watch your kids for you.

[A]

That would be nice.

[B]

That's a life hack.

[A]

That would be nice.

[B]

Does this count? Like daycare and babysitting?

[A]

Yeah, all the.

[B]

I've heard of this. The barter system. So it's like, Rachel, I'll watch your kids for night. You guys go out on a date night next time you watch our kids?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that way you sort of can avoid the high cost of babysitting.

[A]

And I know some moms that work part time.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Like even setting up your schedules, which takes some planning for sure. But man, so much cheaper. A nanny share is great too. We have some at the office. Yes. That uses this where there's like three or four kids in it and you split the cost and it's so much more affordable. Also, the stay at home parent, just like what Whitney did. And a lot of people are doing that because of how expensive childcare is. A lot of people are reexamining. Okay, is it even worth me working right after taxes and everything is done? You're like, okay, how much are we actually gaining per month?

[B]

How did your relationship with your spouse change when you became parents? Ooh, that's deep.

[A]

I mean, I naturally, I feel like you have less time together, but Winston and I are early bedtime. Like the kids, like, it's like 7:00 still. Like, our kids are kind of. I know, that's impressive. We get them going if it's. It's a big deal if they're up till 8. So we do, we will try to like in the evenings have time together. But it's just, it is harder. I'm like, when you try to talk to each other, it's like, oh, yeah. People just screaming at you and wanting to talk to you and stuff. You know what I mean? Like uninterrupt, uninterrupted conversation is. It's hard. So I would say, yeah, there's A level there that changes, but then on the other end, like, you see your spouse be a parent, and it's beautiful.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

You always laugh. Winston's more nurturing than I am. Like, he knows what to do more in, like, situations that they go to Dad a lot more likely to Google it.

[B]

And he's just like, oh, Winston knows.

[A]

He's like, oh, yeah. He knows the words. That is, like, not Tylenol and Advil. It's the other big words behind those.

[B]

Acetaminophen.

[A]

Like that. I'm like, well, this is that. And you can do it every four hours or we can rotate with this. Cause of that. And I'm like, how do you. Dr. Winston, how do you know all this? So, like, he knows a lot. Very basic.

[B]

All right. He knows the generic name for some medication. That's what I've gathered is what's required for Rachel to be like, you're basically a doctor if you know the generic name for the top three medications in the world, y'all.

[A]

I am.

[B]

You're a genius.

[A]

I am terrible, though. Charles broke his leg, y'all, two summers ago. And I was like, he's like, after it all happened, the incident. EVs like, he's fine. And Winston's like, no, he's not. I'm like, babe, I think he's fine. He's like, he's not walking, Rachel. I was like, okay, maybe we should take him in. Broken leg. Then another time, Amelia hit her head on a coffee table, and I was like, it's fine. Like, you're okay. You're okay. It's fine. And Winston came home from work, and he looked. He was like, babe, that is really deep. I'm like, how do you know what's deep? I don't know. She had to get staples. So, like, obviously, medically, not very inclined.

[B]

Oh, my goodness, no.

[A]

But it kind of stopped bleeding. I was like, I think you're fine.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I don't know. So the medically inclined. It's not my go to. So to see your. To see him step into this role. And, like, he really does. He, like, cares for them. He's really good at stuff. Like, he knows what to do. And all of it. We're all just, like, knows what to do.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's what I would say. How about you?

[B]

I would say, number one, it was deeper because of this shared experience.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then it also became transactional at first because of the, like, partnership of just like, hey, what do I need to do? What do you need to do? What do I need to do? It sort of became like a to do list of, all right, you do this, I'll do this. And there's still teamwork there, but it's not the same as it was before. I'm like, what did we even talk about before we had kids? It just sort of consumes a lot of your life. Not in a bad way, but just in a. All the other stuff was just less important that we talked about before. And so we just have to be more intentional once the baby goes down, like, how you doing? What are you thinking about? What's going on? And just also have fun. So I try to always have moments of levity at the house, make her laugh. That's sort of my way of becoming a person again.

[A]

Yes. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. The levity and the laughter is very important, for sure. Okay, George, what's your number one lifesaver when it comes to affording kids?

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Well, the budget is, I think, the thing. We always go back to Whitney and I always go, okay, what's in the budget? What are we planning for this month? What's happening? There's this birthday party. We gotta get, the decor, the toys she needs, new clothes, all of that. And so that becomes the source of truth to where it's not floating around in our head, and it's not a Wait, you spent what on what? I didn't know. Everything is talked about, and the budget is key, and for that, we use every dollar, and it makes it super easy. We're both logged in, and it's a free app. You can go download right now in the App Store. How about you guys?

[A]

Yeah, I would say that that's a big one because I think it dictates and shows, hey, what are we able to spend this month? Right. On the kids and knowing ahead of time, too. I like it because it also helps with, like, the schedules, which sounds silly, but you're like, oh, yeah, soccer signups are there. Okay, so that starts in August, and we gotta plug it into the calendar. Like, it kind of helps with the rhythm of life, too.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, the EveryDollar app. I would say that.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, and they can go to everydollar.com smartmoney to get started. And we'll drop a link in the.

[A]

Show notes and then have a line item for each kid in the budget. We do that, too.

[B]

Very helpful.

[A]

And so that's helpful, too, to see. Okay. Yeah. How much have we spent this month on this kid or that kid?

[B]

And planning for Babysitting. If we know we're going to have two date nights, and you plan for two nights of babysitting. And it's in the budget, so it's not a big social surprise or big, oh, gosh, we got to pay for this.

[A]

That's right. So, all right, George, the number one question I always get around kids and money. Should we be out of debt before we have kids? Ooh.

[B]

The hot take is you don't have to be wherever you are in your financial journey. Again, you will figure it out. You'll make sacrifices. Now, is it going to be less stressful if you're in a better place financially? Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't like this idea of, well, when we get to this place financially, then we're going to be ready. Cause the truth is, you're never gonna be ready, whether it's emotionally, physically, financially, whatever. So go ahead, have the kid, but also be doing a budget. See how it will affect your life. See where you're gonna need to cut back. So it's not a giant surprise. But if it slows down your debt payoff, that's totally okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Big life moments, you know, getting married, having a kid, all of that. Enjoy life like you live once. Right. So there is a point of, like, these things are important too. So if that's what you wanna do is start a family, start a family. But to your point, it's like, yeah, money as a tool in life. And when you have more control over it and even more of it, you know, you have margin, it's not going out the payments. There's going to be places that is going to be less stressful. But don't wait until that point by any means.

[B]

Well, another piece of it that's real is some people wait and then they realize, oh, it's taking us way longer than we thought to have a kid or to get pregnant. And that can be a scary thing. And you look back with regret about waiting so long. And so I just feel like when you're emotionally ready, like, you're excited, you have that moment of like, all right, we're gonna do this. You just figure it out. Here's the last one that's controversial. Do parents owe it to their kids to pay for college? Whose responsibility is it?

[A]

Not the parents. I think it's a gift. If you're able to do that, it's a blessing, but it's not an entitlement. So, no, parents should not be forced to pay for their kids college. Now, again, it's part of the Ramsey baby step. So, again, it's a huge benefit if you can, and it should be a goal right. When you get to that point, because it just. It just helps your kids out to start on a level, you know, foundation financially. But there are ways to go to school debt free. I mean, school choice is always huge. Going to a community college, like, there's ways to do it.

[B]

Schools. Yeah.

[A]

And a lot of people are doing gap years even. Like, there's other things to do around that subject. So as a parent, do not feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm this terrible parent because I can't provide this for my kids. They're going to be okay. They're going to be okay.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, I agree. I think you need. It's your obligation to have the conversation with your kid and student and figure out a plan to go to college debt free. But as far as who's taken what, you know, I'm. My plan is to be able to. I think it's a beautiful thing, and even for, like, the grandkids, I think it's a cool life goal to just say, hey, got the grandkids. College fund it. I'm gonna do a lump sum when the kid's born and go, oh, that's nice. Grandpa George got you taken care of. Yeah.

[A]

What are they gonna call you? What's your grandpa name?

[B]

You know, there's an Arabic name for grandpa that I love. I don't know that.

[A]

Papi.

[B]

Are you just guessing? Boppy?

[A]

Poppy.

[B]

Oh, Poppy. No, it's not Poppy.

[A]

Okay, what is it?

[B]

It's Giddo. Wow.

[A]

Oh, no. Say it again.

[B]

So Jiddo is like the Syrian Lebanese dialect is soft G and a hard G for the Egyptian side. My dad's side, that's Giddo. So that's what I hope that my daughter calls.

[A]

I like Giddo better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I had to pick.

[B]

And then grandma is Teta, so Whitney would become Teta.

[A]

Teta.

[B]

Isn't that cute? Yeah. I like that.

[A]

So good.

[B]

I like it better than, like, Meemaw. I don't know. There's something. I don't know. I'm not Southern enough to go there.

[A]

I know I had a mama.

[B]

You had a mama?

[A]

Well, she's passed. Oh, so sorry.

[B]

Mama, for some reason, feels more authentic.

[A]

Mama.

[B]

Meemaw sounds more like Mama.

[A]

That's very Southern. That's very. Yeah, that's if you have a mama or a Meemaw. That's a. That's a.

[B]

But Whitney's parents, they're they're going to be called Gigi and Poppy. To your credit.

[A]

Poppy in the spirit. That's what it was.

[B]

And Gigi, she liked it. My mother in law likes it. Gigi feels a little younger. Gigi, you know, we're like Graham, Graham or something, you know.

[A]

Yeah, Gigi's cute. What are your parents? Did they go Arabic?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Mia can't speak yet, so I think.

[A]

Wait, is it what you just said to me? What? Mia's gonna go. Oh, I'm sorry. What are you gonna adopt the same? I meant your.

[B]

I would like to.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. That's good.

[B]

Like Mia's kids, what they call me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I would like that. Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I can't. My gramps, I don't know. I don't feel like a grandpa.

[A]

Gramps, Grandpa.

[B]

I'm grandfather. My goal is to be like Jeff Goldblum when I'm older. Like still be kind of like whimsical and you don't know what I'm gonna do. Still young. I feel like it all comes down to like if you're a grandpa and you have like cool glasses and you style your hair and your fashion isn't terrible. You're like, you can pull 25 years younger.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. That's totally fair. I love that.

[B]

But I'm excited to wear suspenders too. Always wanted to try that out. Feels like a big part of being a grandpa.

[A]

Coming soon. Coming soon, George. Coming soon.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Okay, so. Well, here's the spark notes. If you're at a fork in the road, I would say be honest with yourself about what you want for your life and your money and what your spouse wants and look in the financial mirror and then take the steps to get there. What is the gap? What must be true for us to take this next step and then also realize you'll never fully be ready. So if you have some giant checklist of all these things must happen, you'll never have a kid.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think it's also fair to say that there's, you know, people today that may be of that age and that longing and want it. Right. And it's just not happening right now in life for them. Right. Whether maybe they're still single or maybe they can't have kids like we were talking about. So it is the whole like kid conversation. I think it does carry a lot. Right. It's a lot of emotion around this topic. But the more again, when you are in that position to say, okay, yeah, financially, how can we be smart about this and be wise in every aspect of life? I think is. I think is key.

[B]

Yeah. And another piece of this is don't alienate yourself. Don't alienate your single friends. Like, bring them into your life. I think a lot of times, or single people feel like, well, they're married now, so. Or they have kids now. So. Yeah, I don't really feel like I'm a part of that. So you have to be really intentional on all sides. Single people, married people, and then don't judge each other. Like, the Dinks are like, haha, you have kids and the kids are like. People with kids are like, we have a better life than you. I don't like this whole, like, you know, name calling. And other than the fun acronym of dink, I just feel like let's all be kind to each other and realize we're all just doing our best.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We're all living our life.

[A]

George, you sound like me.

[B]

What is happening to you?

[A]

How did that feel? Oh, dear.

[B]

All right. Well, Rachel, we are officially in cozy season. I love fall. We're heading into the holidays, and I think we could be a little cozier on smart money happy hour. You ready? Yeah, that's better.

[A]

Whoa, George. Oh, my gracious.

[B]

If you're listening at home, what you're not seeing is a mammoth sized, oversized throw blanket from our friends at Cozier.

[A]

This is literally like a weighted blanket, but it is like the softest thing I've ever felt.

[B]

It might be made of real mammoth. We don't know.

[A]

This is amazing. Thank you, fall. Thank you, fall. Golly.

[B]

So, Rachel, we're heading into the holidays and a lot of people are going to get some. Some chewy gifts, as they say. Yeah, you know, it's played out. You got the socks, you got with the gift card, the candle. We can do better this year.

[A]

We can. And you know what? Our friends at Cozy Earth have the most incredible products. I actually have their sheets.

[B]

Yes. And they're using them too.

[A]

It's like silk. My kids were like, what? What is this? What is this? When we got them. Because it's you. It's. It's unbelievable.

[B]

My dogs did the same thing without actually talking, but they love it.

[A]

They love it. And then I got a pair of joggers, which I love. And then this blanket. I mean, talk. Think about a fire, think about a Christmas movie on. I mean, all of it in this.

[B]

It's.

[A]

That's a better That's a better life. Let's be honest.

[B]

You know how there was like the hot girl summer. I think Cozy Boy fall is. That's more my speed.

[A]

Yeah. So, guys, make sure to check out Cozy Earth because honestly, their products, the quality is unmatched. It is so, so good. And we actually have a discount code for our listeners. A great one.

[B]

Up to 40% off. When you use the code smart money, all one word, smart money. You'll get an exclusive discount for being a Smart Money happy hour listener and Viewer. Go to cozyearth.com smart money and use the code smart money over there and you'll get that discount. So be sure to check them out. Here's what's really incredible. They have a 10 year warranty on their bedding. I've never seen that in my life.

[A]

That's incredible. Absolutely.

[B]

I've never kept anything for 10 years. So the fact that I can just get more sheets if something goes wrong.

[A]

Because he has taken.

[B]

It's amazing. And by the way, my wife Whitney has been sleeping in. Their little pajama situation changed her life.

[A]

Just wonderful.

[B]

To be fair, she was sleeping in like, old, like Ramsay T shirts. And I was like, upgraded. She's upgraded big time. So thank you, Cozy Earth. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure you told them you heard it on this podcast.

[A]

I love it. All right, George, should we snap it out?

[B]

Snap it away. Okay, here we go. Ready to get uncozy?

[A]

Yep. Man, sorry, I'm, like, all cold now.

[B]

It's about 62 degrees in here.

[A]

It's true. It is true. Well, George, it's almost the end of the episode, and we close out every episode with guilty as charged. And this is where our producer, Kelly gives us a new guilty charge question every week. And if we're guilty, we take a sip. Kelly.

[C]

All right, what's one frivolous expense that you're guilty of splurging on before you had kids?

[B]

Oh, something we no longer did correct once kids entered the picture. Right. Vacations. That feels like an accurate one. I feel like most things that were for me, like, if you look at our Amazon target purchase histories, very few things are for me at this point. Most of it is for the baby. And so I think you just shift your spending away from personal things. But I don't feel like I'm missing out either. Yeah, it just felt like when you have disposable income and no kids, you're.

[A]

Just like, I know I bought a pair of shoes. One pair of shoes. It's like this brands that I wanted the selfishness. And I was like. And now I'm like, I would never. I never wear them and I would never. And again, I think it was that before kids, the dink life that you're like, oh, yeah, I don't know, that sounds fun. And I. Yeah, that's like the one purchase that I think back on, I'm like, that was so stupid.

[B]

Do you still have the shoes?

[A]

I do. Uh huh.

[B]

You still wear them?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

What are they doing? Let's.

[A]

They're a moment of time.

[B]

You know what we should do? I think we do a whole episode where Rachel just sells her old clothes to smart money happy hour viewers and listeners.

[A]

No, these were like, not. These were like. They had red bottoms, George. Oh, they were very.

[B]

I've heard that means something.

[A]

Yes. They were like fancy designer shoes, which I had never bought before I got them actually, after I wrote my first book. That was like one of the first things I did. I know. I mean, I'm gonna get like a designer purchase and then never again.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I know. But I blame the kids for not.

[B]

I also blame, well, you gotta afford Charles King bed. So I get it. Sacrifices must be made. I think we're both guilty, but they're all things that I don't miss. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

How about you, Kelly?

[C]

I used to go to this isn't one splurge, but I used to go to Starbucks every morning.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

And then so my kids are adopted. And when we started the adoption process and my husband slid a piece of paper over and he said, this is what your Starbucks daily is costing. And I was like, oh, oh. And how much that went towards. Yeah, you know, because adoption's expensive.

[B]

So what did he sacrifice and cut out?

[C]

He's not a spender.

[B]

Must be nice.

[C]

So easy for him to say, he's not a spender. But it's a treat now, not an everyday thing because it was thousands, I imagine.

[A]

Are you a Keurig girl? Huh? No.

[C]

No. Because now my husband drinks coffee, I drink coffee, my kids drink coffee. Keurig would be too expensive.

[A]

So, okay, it's a pot of coffee in the morning.

[B]

Pot of coffee, I imagine for the ladies. Does self care kind of take a back seat when you become a mom? Like, you know, getting the nails done. Like, you know, massages. Although Whitney's back in massage mode. Can I say that because of momhood, it has messed up her back to where she has to go to physical therapy.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

So I'm like, girl, let's get you that massage.

[A]

Yes. For sure. At that point. So see, those were things that, like, kept me alive. Not massages, but like my nails, my hair.

[B]

You still felt like a couple of things.

[A]

You're like, I'm a person. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

You know, Whitney just got that she loves now as a mom is a nice set of PJs. Truthfully, she was wearing, like, old, like, you know, she worked at Ramsey for nine years. We have a lot of T shirts. Every event. I see some around the room. There's a new T shirt.

[A]

Totally. Yes.

[B]

So she would get big, baggy Ramsey T shirts from events and then wear those every night.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And she has, like, matching PJ sets now, and she feels like a whole new person.

[A]

That's a grown up set for sure. When you get the matching PJ sets, that's big.

[B]

So you switch out your old frivolous stuff for new, fancy, adult stuff.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's just like, age too. Not necessarily motherhood. I think that's like. It's an adult. It's an adult thing. As a woman.

[B]

Put on your Restoration Hardware bathrobe. I got her that for a great birthday one year.

[A]

So good.

[B]

It was a good one.

[A]

So good.

[B]

That's fun.

[A]

Well, if you guys have any fun guilty as charge questions, make sure to DM us on social because we check home and you give us some good ones. You guys make sure to do that. And George, who's. Who's finishing first?

[B]

I think I'm a little closer. Just barely. Yeah, just instant.

[A]

It was great. It's melting quickly.

[B]

This was a. Isn't she lovely? Again, named after producer Kelly. I'm gonna rate this. I'm gonna give it a seven out of ten.

[A]

Okay, I'm going. I'm going eight out of ten.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I really have no bad words for it. I just wish it was a little bit punchier.

[A]

It's very simple.

[B]

It's very light, refreshing. I almost want a little more flavor, but I think this is a. A lovely drink. The cost per glass, $2.98 a glass. And here's what's in it. It's got vodka, fresh grapefruit juice, lemon juice, elderflower liqueur, blanc, vermouth, simple syrup, and club soda. So there's a lot in there, but it all just kind of like, melds together in this light, airy. Effervescent is the only word for it.

[A]

You know, I always think, like, what I ordered at a restaurant, I would not order this for dinner. Like this wouldn't be like a cocktail of like, oh, before dinner, but if I'm at a beach or a pool.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or what about side at like 3:00.

[B]

What's the fancy hotel that you've gone to and you felt out of place? The Burgdorf or something?

[A]

That was for lunch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Bergdorf's for lunch in New York City.

[B]

This is a drink you could get at Bergdorfs. It'd be very like classy.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And they're sipping that out of a martini.

[B]

They'll just charge you. My guess is 10 times the cost.

[A]

What is it too?

[B]

It was 2.98.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

After tax and tip, 30 bucks.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

There you go. Recipes in the show notes. Give it a try this weekend.

[A]

So great. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out our episode on why people are having fewer children coming up next. Yeah, make sure to subscribe, you guys. We appreciate you watching and listening and we'll see you next Thursday on an all new episode of Smart Money Happy Hour.

[B]

What's up, guys? George Camel here. I know there's lots of influencers on social media telling you which cryptocurrency to invest in for your star sign or which tech startup is definitely maybe going to be the next Microsoft. But seriously, investing can feel confusing and stressful and it doesn't have to be that way. That's why I'm pumped to be hosting Investing Essentials with the man himself, Dave Ramsey. This is a two night virtual event where we're going to deep dive into investing. We're going to talk about how to get the most out of your 401k and mutual funds and share strategies for staying confident in your investments. Plus, we'll give you the inside scoop on popular investment trends to follow and the ones you need to avoid. It's also the only event where you're going to hear Dave Ramsey unpack his personal playbook for how he made millions in real estate investing. Now, I know what you're thinking. How could this possibly get better? Well, it's virtual, so you don't even have to leave your house to watch. Join us live on March 4th and 5th to start investing with confidence. Tickets start at 199 bucks. Get [e-mail] events.