Playing Devil’s Advocate Against Our Own Money Advice

Summary

Podcast Summary: Smart Money Happy Hour with Rachel Cruze and George Kamel

Episode: Playing Devil’s Advocate Against Our Own Money Advice
Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Ramsey Network

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Rachel Cruze and George Kamel take their usual personal finance advice and turn it on its head by playing devil’s advocate. The two friends and money experts challenge each other to debate controversial topics—like prenups, car loans, credit cards, and tithing—by arguing against their own (Ramsey-endorsed) principles. The show is playful, full of sharp banter, memorable quotes, and honest reflections on where their advice meets real life.

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Key Discussion Points and Notable Quotes

1. Setting the Stage: Devil’s Advocate in Personal Finance

[01:47–04:26]

• Rachel and George introduce the premise: debating "dicey" money topics by defending the opposite of their usual advice.
• Rachel shares her love of a good debate and explains the history of the term "devil's advocate."
  • Rachel [02:25]: "It's going back to church history… The Catholic Church… established… advocates diaboli."
• They note that healthy debate means understanding opposing viewpoints and being open to deeper discussion.
  • George [03:57]: "Healthy people have no problem having a healthy debate… playing the devil's advocate without losing their mind."

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2. Prenups: Necessary Protection or Sign of Distrust?

[04:54–09:27]

• Ramsey Stance: Prenups aren’t necessary for most couples unless there's a big wealth disparity or family business.
• Devil's Advocate (Rachel): Supports prenups as asset protection due to high divorce rates and potential vulnerability, especially for stay-at-home spouses.
  • Rachel [05:23]: "You have a 1 in 2 chance of it ending, so might as well protect yourself..."
• George counters: A prenup may undermine team unity and spirit in marriage.
  • George [07:43]: "There's a spirit about that that says, I'm all in."
• Debate continues: Is it better to risk losing trust, or losing a lifetime’s assets?

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3. Car Loans: Smart Leverage or Financial Trap?

[09:28–14:09]

• Ramsey Stance: Car loans are one of the worst financial decisions; they drain wealth through interest on depreciating assets.
  • Rachel [09:45]: "You’re basically trading your future for a car… that is going to be worth maybe $5,000 when you sell it."
• Devil's Advocate (George): Argues that with high car prices, loans or leases are reasonable and offer convenience, reliability, and new car experiences.
  • George [10:36]: "It is totally unreasonable to tell someone to pay for a car in cash."
• Memorable moment: The friends joke about dream cars and the lure of luxury ("G Wagon", Tesla).
  • George [12:08]: "It feels good to be on the wrong side of history… I make good money, I can afford the payment. Who cares?"

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4. Credit Cards: Rewards Game or Debt Disaster?

[15:40–21:44]

• Ramsey Stance: Avoid credit cards entirely; rewards are not worth the risk of debt.
  • George [15:49]: "Debt is a slippery slope… the credit card company will always be happy to give you a bigger line of credit at 27% APR."
• Devil's Advocate (Rachel): Justifies cards for rewards, perks, and flexibility—if you pay off in full.
  • Rachel [16:26]: "We travel all the time… went to all the lounges… you make up [the annual fee] with your like three glasses of champagne."
• George challenges: Are the rewards really valuable compared to potential overspending?
  • George [18:24]: "Will you just use your own money for one year and see if you spend less?"
• Sharp insight: Using credit cards is subsidized by people who carry debt.
  • George [19:01]: "Where are these rewards coming from, Rachel? Someone's paying for them."

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5. Shared vs. Separate Bank Accounts After Marriage

[21:47–28:46]

• Ramsey Stance: Married couples should fully combine finances for unity and transparency.
  • Rachel [21:48]: "When you get married, you are one in every aspect of your life, including your money."
• Devil's Advocate (George): Defends separate bank accounts to maintain independence and autonomy within a relationship.
  • George [24:18]: "Not everything has to be ours. I can still be a person and spend my money how I want to spend it."
• Rachel rebuts: Separate accounts can lead to secrecy, financial infidelity, and a lack of real team effort.
  • Rachel [25:48]: "Not only can financial infidelity start to creep in… it does creep into your marriage."
• Fun analogy: George quips, "You should have to sleep in separate twin beds until you have a joint account." [28:40]

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6. Tithing: Priority or Privilege?

[31:23–36:28]

• Ramsey Stance: Faith-based giving (10% tithe) should be prioritized, but it's personal conviction.
  • George [31:33]: "Prioritizing generosity changes you from the inside out… puts giving first."
• Devil's Advocate (Rachel): In hardship, giving feels impossible; debt payoff and family needs come first.
  • Rachel [32:16]: "We're not in a space to do that right now… our hope is that someday we will."
• Discussion: The complexity of tithing, skepticism toward church finances, and the value of generosity—even in small amounts.
  • Rachel [34:58]: "This is not one of these… I think we kind of have a hard and fast rule… and your own personal situation and conviction."

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7. Should You Pay Down Low-Interest Debt?

[36:37–39:18]

• Ramsey Stance: All debt—even low-interest—should be paid off, as debt-free living brings freedom and reduced stress.
  • Rachel [36:55]: "There's power in having no debt, even if the interest on the debt is small."
• Devil's Advocate (George): Mathematically, investing elsewhere can be more profitable (arbitrage), so why rush to pay it off?
  • George [37:35]: "I could pay it off, but I'm making 4% in my high yield savings account… why would I pay that off?"
• Rachel’s reply: Financial freedom isn't always a math problem; it’s a lifestyle choice.

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8. Reflections: Why Stick to Unpopular, Uncomfortable Advice?

[40:59–42:50]

• Rachel and George reflect on why “going against the grain” with money is hard but necessary for long-term peace.
  • George [41:29]: "Reality is most people are broke, anxious, stressed. And if you can remove that by living debt-free, going against the grain… why wouldn’t you?"
  • Rachel [42:18]: "If you're not happy with where you are financially… do something totally different… that’s usually what Ramsey principles are these days."

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9. Lighthearted Segment: “Guilty as Charged”

[45:49–51:24]

• Rachel and George share stories about accidentally breaking the law and financial consequences.
  • Rachel [46:15]: "That happened to me this summer… we were at my parents’ lake house… never knew you can’t tow tubes through a no-wake zone."
  • George [50:01]: "We got ambushed by police… skateboarding in Charlestown… they took our skateboards!"
• Ends with playful banter on cops, quotas, and youthful mischief.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:47] – Why debate personal finance? The value of playing devil’s advocate
• [04:54] – Prenup debate
• [09:28] – Car loans: pro and con
• [15:40] – Credit card arguments (rewards vs. debt traps)
• [21:47] – Joint vs. separate bank accounts in marriage
• [31:23] – The challenge of tithing (and church skepticism)
• [36:37] – Should you pay off low-interest debt?
• [40:59] – Reflections on comfort, discomfort, and changing your financial life
• [45:49] – “Guilty as Charged”: funny stories of accidental law-breaking

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Rachel on prenups [05:23]: "You have a 1 in 2 chance of it ending, so might as well protect yourself and your assets."
• George on joint bank accounts [28:40]: "I think you should have to sleep in separate twin beds until you have a joint account."
• George on car loans [12:08]: "It feels good to be on the wrong side of history."
• On credit card rewards [19:01]: "Where are these rewards coming from, Rachel? Someone's paying for them."
• Rachel on tithing [34:58]: "This is not one of these… hard and fast rule… your own personal situation and conviction."
• Rachel [42:18]: "If you're not happy… do something totally different… that’s what Ramsey principles are."

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Episode Tone & Language

The episode is friendly, candid, and full of playful teasing. Both hosts use light sarcasm, humor, and a down-to-earth, relatable approach to counterbalance the serious nature of personal finance. Quotations, “scene changes,” and real-life stories (including Rachel’s accidental boating ticket) keep things casual and engaging.

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Conclusion

This episode provides an honest, entertaining look at the real-world pushback against expert financial advice. By arguing the other side—including scenarios many listeners face—Rachel and George underscore the reasoning behind Ramsey principles, while acknowledging that life isn’t black-and-white. The balance of “hot takes” and personal connection makes this a must-listen for anyone navigating practical money dilemmas—or just needing a laugh with their financial wisdom.

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For further resources and exclusive discounts, see the episode show notes!

Transcript

[A]

Today, we're flirting with the dark side of personal finance. Let's play devil's advocate with some controversial money topics. I'm out here defending Rachel.

[B]

I want to win one of these.

[A]

I feel like you're a. I'm a trial lawyer. I'm trying to think of a time you would break the law but then not know you broke the law.

[B]

That was me.

Hey, guys, I'm rachel cruze.

[A]

I'm george camel, and this is smart.

[B]

Smart money happy hour.

Cheers, George.

[A]

Cheers to milk. Oh, may she live forever.

[B]

It always be part of our story.

[A]

Shout out to Big Dairy.

[B]

You know, I'm not mad at it. Okay, this is the show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events and money.

[A]

But first, let's talk about milk. We're sipping on milk. Technically, it's a bourbon milk punch. Okay, that makes it sound any better?

[B]

It does. A little eggnog. It's like a little bit of a. It's a holiday. I think there's the nutmegs on top, Right?

[A]

Yellow nutmeg shape.

[B]

Yeah. It's a very holiday. I'm not mad at it. This by a fire with, like, a cozy earth blanket, you know, you're just, like, hanging.

[A]

Okay. You really painted a picture.

[B]

I think it's great. With a good book, a little.

[A]

You lost me at the book.

[B]

Crackle Pop.

[A]

A good Hallmark movie. Why we gotta read? It's the holidays. Let me enjoy my life. Hey, stick around till the end. We're gonna give you our rating and reveal the cost per glass at the end of the episode. All right, Rachel. We spend a lot of our time explaining, maybe defending our stance on personal finance and building wealth.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, I love a good debate, George. More than anyone, I love stirring the pot. I had one upstairs earlier this afternoon. I mean, like, I guess earlier this morning with some of our team. And it was great. Just a hot button topic. And we were all like.

[A]

You just kind of dropped a little conversation grenade in there just to see. How'd it go?

[B]

Oh, it was great. So fun.

[A]

I love it. Well, today we thought it would be fun to take turns playing devil's advocate and debate each other on some dicey money topics. So be sure to drop your take in the comments and play along with us.

[B]

Hey, so before we get started, do you want to know where Devil's Advocate comes from?

[A]

I would say I'm mildly intrigued. Tell me more.

[B]

Well, I like it because it's going Back to church history. And you know my fascination these days about church history. The Third Ecumenical Council. No, we're not. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, jk. I was gonna go back to church history, but I won't. So don't do it.

[A]

Don't get her started.

[B]

In the 16th century. You ready for this? The Catholic church, in precisely 1587, the Pope established.

It's Latin for devil's advocate. Can you do it? This makes me nervous.

[A]

Advocates diaboli.

[B]

Good, George.

[A]

I don't know if that was right. It felt more. It leaned more Harry Potter than it did Catholic Church, I'll say that.

[B]

Well, that is. Basically. They were saying they don't want anyone to enter sainthood without basically, some criticism, pushback. Like, if you have any counter arguments against this person who's going to enter sainthood, you get to be devil's advocate. So that's, like, where it came from.

[A]

So, like, they're trying to raise up all the doubts, the flaws, the inconsistencies, to make sure they are ripe for sainthood.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That'd be scary.

[B]

So I think. Oh, my gosh. Terrible. Yeah.

[A]

Especially whatever dungeon they were doing this in back in the day, all the.

[B]

Chiseled stone, I guess they were writing in the 50s.

[A]

Wow. That makes sense.

[B]

We're not going all the way back to.

Moses getting stone tablets.

[A]

That's. Oh, that's where you went.

[B]

I'm kidding. You know I'm terrible at timelines. Who is the artist that, like, just died?

[A]

Like Picasso. Yes. You were, like, 1800s. It was like, 1960s.

[B]

Blew my mind. It's crazy.

[A]

Well, this makes sense. Sometimes when you have a firm belief or a stance, people assume you're completely uninformed about the other side. And I think healthy people have no problem having a healthy debate, healthy discussion, playing the devil's advocate without losing their mind.

[B]

Yes. That's what I love. Because I think you can have your stance of, like. Okay, yes. I lean this way in life about a subject, but also be genuinely interested in. Okay, where are you coming from if it's opposite. Because there's a reason. You have your opinion, too, and I want to hear from it. So we're gonna do the unthinkable, George.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

We're gonna do devil's advocate with Ramsey financial advice.

[A]

So one of us has to go against Ramsey advice as a game.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What kind of sick, twisted game is this?

[B]

Are you so excited, Dave?

[A]

Just know I didn't want to be a part of this at all. I Said I would do it.

[B]

Wanted group. He wanted to opt out, but always sucker. Jen.

[A]

Okay, don't clip this out of context, guys. All right?

[B]

This is going to be fun. Okay, I'll play devil's advocate first.

[A]

All right, first category.

[B]

We're going to go prenups.

[A]

Juicy. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you give the Ramsey take, and then I'll go devil advocate.

[A]

All right, Ramsey take on prenups in general. You don't need one, you shouldn't want one. It usually points to some deeper trust issues. And unless you have extreme variance in wealth, like one person you know is coming in with a seven figure net worth, the other person is broke. Okay, maybe a prenup could make sense if there's a family business involved on one side, but for the average American, you don't need a prenup.

[B]

Okay, I would say. Yes, you do, George, to be devil's advocate. What? Protect yourself. That majority of. I say majority of marriages in divorce, I don't think it's majority. Maybe 50% or whatever that stat is. He's. You have a. You have a 1 in 2 chance of it ending, so might as well protect yourself and your assets going in. Why would you not? That's crazy, George.

[A]

Well, speak to this from the female's perspective. A lot of women out there are worried because what if, you know, they end up staying at home and they don't have an income and now they're left in a lurch? 100%. The marriage ends.

[B]

Yeah. You sound like you're on my side now.

[A]

I'm just trying to. I'm trying to help you out as the devil.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So you want to protect yourself and make sure that you have assets and if you ever have to leave the.

[A]

Marriage, I mean, there's a legal process of getting divorced.

[B]

Oh, do you know how much money that takes to get lawyers involved and everything? No hassle. No.

[A]

Get a mediator.

[B]

It'll be all right. No, stop. No. Just give me a document.

[A]

A document?

[B]

That's right there.

[A]

This mines.

[B]

This is mine.

[A]

No takey from me.

[B]

This is mine.

[A]

What if you're the person coming into it with nothing and you want to build wealth with this person? That feels unfair.

[B]

No, because I started. I got us up on the. On the ledge to go forward, and you're. I'm dragging you behind me.

[A]

I raise you one devil's advocate. Let's say Winston came into this marriage with two properties and they have mortgages on them. Well, now you're married. You're building wealth together, and some of your money is going towards fixing up that property, paying down the mortgage of that property, and your name isn't on it. But the prenup says, hey, this is Winston's. You don't get to touch that. If the marriage ends, then we're gonna.

[B]

Continue to not put money towards his properties.

[A]

It just feels like there's some marital descent now.

[B]

It starts to dwindle, but do you.

[A]

See where it becomes.

[B]

Yes, I know.

[A]

Okay, here's what I don't like.

[B]

Scene. Now we're back to regular Rachel and George snapped out of it.

No, but for real, I get why some people are fearful going into marriage if they do have money and assets. Right. Cause you're just like, oh, my gosh. But I think that's the thing, is I think that I do have to believe, which we did not get a prenup, Winston. And I didn't. So I can't speak to this. But I think there is a level of, like, going into it automatically being like, we're not on the full same team. Does that make sense? Like, I like the idea of not a prenup personally. There's something about that.

[A]

There's a spirit about that that says, I'm all in.

[B]

Yes. And that as we're building life together, we're building it together fully, and there's not this, like, peace that is always going to be yours. I don't know. But again, if it's. If it's crazy difference, I agree with our advice. Usually, like, then, yes, I think that's fair. But it's this, like, it's not that big. It's not that much of a difference. I think it already.

[A]

I'll play devil's advocate to yours.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I saw a divorce lawyer talking about this, and he said something to the effect of when you are getting married and in that prenup process, you. You like each other the most, that you're going to like each other, essentially. So, like, do it when you have that spirit, and you'll go into it making good decisions with the prenup versus it being, well, this is mine. That's your. You know, you're in a good spot also, too.

[B]

I mean, a lot of times the state is your. I mean, a lot of times it gets split 50, 50.

[A]

They'll decide what's fair.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's where I'm like, the question is, do you trust the system? The system to decide what's fair? Right.

[B]

And how good is your lawyer and how much can you afford? Yeah.

[A]

And Who's. Whose side are they going to lean on, Dep? Depending on what happened in the situation.

[B]

Super crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Yikes. But, yeah, we get calls where it's like, well, I'm making 60 and she makes 40, and I feel like I need a prenup.

[B]

That was one call I got. He was making 85, she was making 60. And he's like, we need a prenup. I was like, dude, stop that. That is so. No. I'm like, get off your high horse, dude.

[A]

Get off the high horse. You got roasted for that. That was fun.

[B]

I did. Well, because they. The team clipped me in the middle of my rants.

[A]

Well, they made it sound like you make 85. Shut up. And you were not saying that's a bad income. No. You were saying comparatively to her income, it's not that. Wildly different.

[B]

No, no. If it was 385. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what we're talking about. It's like, yes.

[A]

I'm out here defending Rachel.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

Okay, what does this come to?

[B]

Next up, car loans, George.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Okay, you get to be devil's advocate. See, the prenup one was tough because you. You could get a lot of different ways. You can kind of.

[A]

Yeah. This one, I have to defend the car.

[B]

You get to defend the car.

[A]

Lo smart to take out a car loan.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, what's the Ramsey take?

[B]

Okay, so majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and, I mean, it's over half. And the average new car payment is over $700. And if you had invested that money versus paying that amount, maybe even with interest on top of it, all the things in an asset that's going down in value, what you would have is literally millions of dollars. So you're basically trading your future for a car that is going to be worth maybe 5,000 when you sell it to trade it out for something else. And then if you don't have money saved and you're in the car loan loop, you're going to go right back into that car loan into another one, and then that's money leaving every single month. I think it's probably one of the worst financial decisions to make. Wow.

[A]

Okay. Insert devil's advocate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go, Rachel. Have you seen the prices of cars these days? It is totally unreasonable to tell someone to pay for a car in cash.

[B]

I know. It may not be a great car, and it may be a car you only drive for, like, six, eight months, and you end up selling it. Well, that's a whole process saving money and then getting a new one.

[A]

And who's going to pay for the repairs and maintenance on this crappy used car that I bought?

[B]

Well, as you're going to, hopefully it's not a ton if you're not having it for a long period of time. And so you want me to just.

[A]

Step in and out of cars every six months? That feels crazy.

[B]

Eight. Yeah. And then if as you keep going up and you can find reliable cars, it is very doable.

[A]

But then I have to like, if I'm gonna save up 600 bucks a month to go get this car, why not just take on a $600 a month payment? What's the difference?

[B]

Because when you actually have it, you own the car full out and then.

[A]

It'S a depreciating asset. I don't care to own something that's going down in value.

[B]

Well you're. So you're gonna pay extra on something that's going down in value.

[A]

It's a little bit of interest. I can get a good rate with my credit score.

[B]

Man, you're really good at this, George. So that it's terrible. I feel.

[A]

I'll lease it. I'll lease it. It's even cheaper. It's basically a cheap rental car.

[B]

No, that's actually the most expensive way to finance a vehicle is leasing. I'd rather you take out a car payment because at least at the end you own it. At least at the end of the car payment you own the car.

[A]

The insurance is built in. I never have to do maintenance.

[B]

But the amount of interest that's baked into it is extremely high. Usually higher on average than a car payment.

[A]

That's a fee. I'm willing to pay for the convenience and reliability.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And driving a new car all the time.

[B]

Don't complain that life is expensive then.

[A]

So I'll delete the tweets.

[B]

That's good, George.

[A]

That was really. You know what, man? It feels good to be on the wrong side of history. That felt really good to be like to justify why I needed a super luxuries fifty thousand dollar lease car. I make good money. I can afford the payment. Who cares?

[B]

Who cares?

[A]

It's not your life.

[B]

Let me live my life.

[A]

Let me live my life. I want to live in a nice drive my land.

[B]

What would be, what would be the crazy car you would get?

[A]

If I was gonna lease a car?

[B]

Yeah. What would you do?

[A]

I guess there's no luxury.

[B]

Oh for sure.

[A]

Like I'm not gonna lease a Nissan, you know What?

[B]

I kind of wanna drive. I would never buy one.

[A]

A Range Rover G Wagon.

[B]

G Wagon? How'd you know? Oh my gosh. Very like Christopher.

[A]

How did I know? Every white woman in America is dreaming about driving a G Wagon.

[B]

I do think they're. I think.

[A]

Is it because of the Kardashians? Did they popularize it?

[B]

I think they did like years and years and years ago. I think they were the first ones I ever saw drive one on Keeping up with the Kardashians. But now they've made their way to Nashville. I just think they're cool looking. I like them.

[A]

I will say they're very unique and I'm sure it's a wonderful vehicle.

[B]

Y.

[A]

Is it worth hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't think so.

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

But would you buy a used one if you could find like a decent used one?

[B]

Well, I have three kid. I can't. It's not.

[A]

Not a fan. It's a. Kids are out of the house.

[B]

Yes, yes. If I had one kid, maybe.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I probably too late for that game in another planet. I'd probably be like leasing a Tesla or something because I'm just like, I like that. It's like leasing an iPhone.

[B]

You would pick a Tesla though. That would be it.

[A]

You're saying it with judgment.

[B]

No, I mean I like Teslas, but.

[A]

I'm saying like I just feel like a luxury car. It's got too many bells and whistles for me. It's stressful. I can't even figure out my wife's suv. There's so many buttons everywhere and I just want it to have an iPad. Yeah, does it all for me.

[B]

You know, the new brand new cars have the like screen that goes all the way across. Have you seen that?

[A]

Oh yeah, that's fancy.

[B]

Fancy schmancy.

[A]

Why do I need a screen that goes all the way across? I don't know.

[B]

We don't know.

[A]

What am I doing looking way over there.

[B]

But that is. That's what the. That's what's happening now in technology. So fun. All right, I need.

[A]

I need a Pepto Bismol after that.

[B]

Do you.

[A]

It's getting stressful.

[B]

You need that and a glass of milk in your cozy Earth blanket.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like we talked about earlier. Cuz coz Earth their products. Oh my gosh. Could you imagine.

[A]

Pairs very well with a cocktail.

[B]

Anything from cozy and with a G.

[A]

Wagon, you know, cozy, bougie, beautiful cover.

[B]

But honestly, cozy Earth products, the quality is as good as a G Wagon, let's be honest. But it is amazing. Like all the fit from all the clothes spot on their bedding, their sheets, all of it incredible. The blankets, by far the best to die for. Oh my gosh.

[A]

And it makes soft gift. There's a lot of people I love in my life and it's hard to shop for them. But then I go, bet they don't have a Cozy Earth PJ set in.

[B]

Navy and in that color periwinkle. Uh huh. No, it's great though. The products are incredible and they're giving our listeners an incredible discount.

[A]

Up to 40% off when you go to cozyearth.com smartmoney and use the promo code smartmoney at checkout. I think people will only love you more if you give them the gift of everyday luxury.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So enjoy your athleisure, enjoy your bedding and enjoy it all at Cozy Earth.

[A]

Oh and by the way, you got to place the order by December 12 to get the deal for guaranteed Christmas delivery. Don't be that person where it shows up on the 27th. They've already forgotten about you. Okay. Make sure it arrives on time. Order by the 12th. Up to 40% off cozyearth.com smartmoney or use the link in the show notes.

[B]

All right, next up, George, credit cards.

[A]

Oh boy. I'm going to let you take this one.

[B]

I'll play devil's advocate for this one.

[A]

This is a fun one.

[B]

Okay, so what's Ramsey's take with credit cards?

[A]

The take is that debt is a slippery slope and it's virtually impossible to go into debt when you use your own money because that money won out. But the credit card company will always be happy to give you a bigger line of credit at 27% APR. Something ridiculous. We're now, you know, well over a trillion dollars in credit card debt as a nation. And I think that's a bad habit and you get coaxed into it with all these rewards and miles and points and I can build my credit score and fraud protection, blah blah blah. I don't think it's worth it. I think you do way better to build wealth with your own money than borrowing someone else's. End scene.

[B]

No, but seriously, we travel all the time and getting the airline miles and the points and to get to go to all the lounges in the airports. It is the best. You literally what you pay in a fee to have that credit card you make up with with your like three glasses of champagne in the lounge when you travel and you're Done.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So it is. But it is worth it because I'm gonna be spending the money anyways, and I only use it on bills, like things like electricity, water, things. We're already gonna buy gas for our cars, so it's already gonna be going out of our house and of our account, so might as well get a reward for it and use the rewards. So I'm actually beating the credit card company because I pay it off every month and so I don't pay interest.

[A]

You're finessing the system, as they would say.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How much have you spent on that credit card in a given year?

[B]

A year?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to think household, but I mean, let's go like, I don't know, $24,000.

[A]

24,000. Okay. So two grand a month is what's going on these days.

[B]

Probably food, gas, everything. Yeah.

[A]

And what's the total amount of cash value and rewards you've gotten in that year?

[B]

You know, George, I haven't really looked it up. I just know we got.

[A]

So you assume that you.

[B]

Four free flights. Okay, four free flights. 16 free flights.

[A]

16 flights on 24 grand a year.

[B]

39 flights. I don't know how many. I don't know how many. I don't know how many lights.

[A]

Now, the question is, and this is hypothetical, how much would you have spent if it was your own money and.

[B]

I get cash back?

[A]

Okay, so you get your 2% cash back.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

Which on $24,000 gets you, you know, some Christmas money, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Christmas was actually brought to you by MasterCard.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And my cash, I'm guessing you put.

[A]

That on the card as well.

[B]

I did, actually. So I'm double dipping, as they say.

[A]

The old double dipper.

[B]

It's a little. Yeah, right here. Okay.

[A]

Will you do an experiment for me?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Will you just use your own money for one year and see if you spend less than that 24,000.

[B]

Oh, cause you think subconsciously I'm spending more because I'm spending other people's money and getting rewards for it? Is that what you're saying?

[A]

Let's say you spend 20 instead of 24. Well, that's a $4,000 reward you gave yourself by being more conscious.

[B]

But I didn't get those four flights.

[A]

What if you just saved up and paid for your flights like a normal adult?

[B]

Because we're going to be traveling anyways.

[A]

But then you might be stuck to a certain airline or a certain time. You don't have the flexibility to actually do your research and get the best Deal. You're beholden to whatever the credit card companies will give you.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

And where are these rewards coming from, Rachel? Someone's paying for them. The credit card companies, where are they getting that money?

[B]

They make a lot of money off.

[A]

Of people who are not paying their bills. Struggling paycheck to paycheck. You would say, wow, that's got to feel icky inside.

[B]

It's kind of like this milk.

[A]

And you said you're paying bills with that card. You know, they add an extra 3% on top of the bill amount for a credit card.

[B]

Yeah, but our. It's so nice when we get to fly not to pay for those flights, George.

[A]

I'm just saying we got to account for all the fees you are paying on top of the annual fee, which is $795 if you have the card. I'm thinking of you, pro.

[B]

I probably do have that card because it's a very nice card. We spend a lot of money on it.

[A]

And is it made of titanium? Are you impressed by the card?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Every time you pull it out, do you feel like, I've made it?

[B]

I think, wow, she must have a lot of money.

[A]

I'm glad that's the image you're trying to put forward. It's exhausting.

[B]

I want to win one of these. I feel like you're.

[A]

I'm a trial lawyer.

[B]

I was gonna say it's pretty good.

[A]

That is good. Scene. But here's the thing.

[B]

Scene.

[A]

Yes. Thank you for playing devil's advocate.

[B]

I don't know. How many flights can you get if you spent $24,000 on a credit card?

[A]

Unlimited? If you ask most people, there's like, oh, I never pay for a flight.

[B]

But granted. How many trips are people really going on? Realistically, a year?

[A]

Two.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They went to Boise. They're bragging about it. No, but I get it. There is a truth to this, that if you play the credit card game perfectly, are there rewards to be had? Sure. But what is it really costing you? The mental gymnastics of, I met someone who has 16 cards.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And they just spent, like, half of their day trying to figure out what card would maximize the reward based on where they were at.

[B]

It's the brain calories for me. Not worth it.

[A]

So there's that.

[B]

Can I tell you, too? I think one of the biggest benefits is besides not going deep in credit card debt, which everyone's like, I pay mine off every month. And then we talk to people on the show all the time. And in sad situations like People aren't wanting to rack up credit cards. Right. I mean, like, it is a lot of situations where they.

[A]

Nobody opens it thinking, I'll carry a balance month to month.

[B]

Yes. Not Right. Right. But I like the idea of not getting a bill. I like paying for something. Like, we went to a nice dinner last night with some friends, and I'm done. And I think we were the only ones. Maybe they'll probably use the debit card. I don't know. But I'm like. I just like that. I'm like, I want to work.

[A]

Everyone else said, put it on my tab. And you went, no, I don't want a tab. No, thank you.

[B]

No, I just. I don't know. I like the idea that it's done. It's not coming back to me at all.

[A]

Out of sight, out of mind.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's in the past.

[B]

Yes. Because it's already done. The food's eaten. Experience is done, and we need to pay for something later.

[A]

That is weird because, like, your body digested that, and then it's exited out of your body, and you're still paying for it.

[B]

That's it. It's true, George. It's true.

[A]

Hate to be gross.

[B]

To be that person.

[A]

All right. That was a fun one.

[B]

Okay, should we do another one?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, Ready? Shared bank accounts after marriage. Okay, so Ramsey's take on this is that when you get married, you are one in every aspect of your life, including your money. So together, you are working together, banking together. Everything is together. And so when you both make an income or one of you makes an income, it goes to the household to be shared and to be used, not just to that individual person who made that specific money. So that's our take. And it creates a lot of intimacy and much of a healthier relationship and unity in marriage that, I think, spills over to other areas. That's Ramsey's take. Devil.

[A]

I'm playing devil's advocate, so I have to pretend to be a big proponent of separate bank accounts.

[B]

Yes. Go.

[A]

Hi, Rachel.

[B]

Hello, sir.

[A]

My wife and I, in this wild example, we. We don't have a joint bank account. I mean, we pay bills out of an account, you know, but, like, my paycheck goes to my account, her paycheck goes to her account, and then we just split bills. What's the big deal?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Our marriage is great.

[B]

Do you feel like thriving? Is it weird you venmo each other.

[A]

Occasionally just to settle up, but who cares?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, do you honestly, though, feel like. Oh, yeah, we are in this all together as a team, the unity is there because I think what's happening. And you don't even probably realize it subconsciously that there is a level of that separation, because money does create something in us, and it's probably a level of vulnerability for sure, to, like, say, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna share my life with you and my money. But in that unity and functioning that together, you're not only gonna build wealth faster, but also. I mean, studies show that marriages actually have higher levels of happiness and joy when they are united financially.

[A]

Wow. That's a lot to think about. I would say, though, I am vulnerable in my marriage. Like, just the other night, I cried while we watched Dancing with the Stars at Daniel Fisher's performance. I would say we have a lot of intimacy, vulnerability. We're shared in our. In our goals. We both love Dancing with the Stars, and we're doing fine financially. All the bills are getting paid. Like, we're investing. We're doing all the right things, but we just have our independence still. I'm not codependent where I need each other, have a joint account.

[B]

Oh, and that's codependency for you? Yeah.

[A]

I just feel like we don't. You know, not everything has to be ours. I can still be a person and spend my money how I want to spend it.

[B]

She has spend with hers. And you can do the same if you have a joint account and you guys are spending out of the same account, because what if one day she. What if she's not making a lot and you're making more? Who picks up dinner? Do you split it 50. 50.

[A]

She'll get an allowance. And if she chooses to use that on dinner, she can do that.

That's. I think that's fair. You know what I mean?

[B]

Just like, you're just, like, equalizing everything.

[A]

Yeah. She's still bringing something to this marriage. It just may not be.

[B]

But she does. So does she pay, like, a percentage of the bills that she brings in?

[A]

Yeah, we just. All right, I make 100, you make 50. So I'll. I'll cover 75. You cover 25. You know, we just switch up the percentages.

[B]

Okay. Financially, your goals. What are y' all doing? Are you guys working? Are you.

[A]

We're going on vacations.

[B]

Who pays for those?

[A]

We'll kind of split it. We'll kind of put it on the card and just make payments and.

[B]

And just go 50. 50 on it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And you're good with it?

[A]

It's worked out so far.

[B]

Okay, see, this is. What's hard to debate is, like, apathy.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

All right. Well, if that's.

[A]

I'm representing the average American here, we're doing fine. Here's your assumption, Rachel, that our marriage is suffering because we don't have a joint account.

[B]

Yeah. And I say that. And that's the thing, is that it's not, on the surface, a level of, oh, right here. But what it does create is this avenue where you're living basically two different lives, financially speaking. And then not only can financial infidelity start to creep in, where you're spending money and you don't have to tell.

[A]

Her, I did some sports betting the other day.

[B]

Yeah. There is, like, that level of secrecy. Right. You start to do this, and then you look up and you're like, oh, my gosh. If we had joined everything, not only from an investing standpoint, could we have been so much further along financially, but also, it does creep in to your marriage. It does. And to be able to say, okay, that we are truly living two separate lives in this area, that is so important, that could be so uniting. And so it is hard when you're not one team in marriage. Even though you decided to marry and give your life to this other person, you get to keep yours on one side. So. How selfish of you. It's great.

[A]

Wow. You just convinced me to get a joint account. End scene.

[B]

Name calling you. That's what I did at the end.

[A]

Man, that was stressful.

[B]

You're good, George. You should.

[A]

Maniacal. No, that is. That is one of the toughest ones. Cause it's. You can't convince someone that their marriage would be better if they did this a different way. And it's. It goes beyond just the money, because there is this level of, like, you can put a line item in your budget for Rachel's fun money and Winston's fun money. Why do you need this other account?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you dig down. It's a level of distrust. A level. Maybe there's some selfishness. Maybe there's something you're hiding.

[B]

Well, and there's like, an autonomy thing, too, I think, that people feel when they get married, of like, oh, I don't wanna lose who I am, and my money is a level of my worth and my income.

[A]

And I work hard.

[B]

Yeah. And if you take that from me. And so, again, what that does, over time, I do think it erodes what the purity of marriage is supposed to be. And when you go all in with someone. And again, from a financial perspective, I'm like, there's something just to be said of, like, I'm laying everything out, and I trust you fully. You trust me, and we're the same team. Instead of, like, kind of battling against each other and keeping it separate, it's just that it's a. Yeah.

[A]

That transparency and accountability, I think, creates a better marriage long term. Now, there are couples who go, we've been married for 24 years, and we've always had our separate accounts, and it's fine. Maybe it is. And I'm glad you guys are still together, but you don't know what could have been and what would be if you fully combined everything.

[B]

Well. And I have found, at least in our marriage, it's the subjects that you're like, oh, if we can get a quick fix and not have to fight about this, you just do that, and I'll just do this. You actually put, like, a terrible little band aid over an issue that actually could have caused you guys to go deeper, to know each other more, to have that level of connection. And you don't get that opportunity at all when you just avoid the hard subjects. And I think a lot of people do that with money. They're like, we fight about it, so just go separate, and we just won't worry about it. And that's a. Yeah. You're choosing not to live in a certain vulnerability when you do that in any issue in marriage, including money. But Hot Topic.

[A]

That's fair. That's fair. I think. Here's my hot take. I think you should have to sleep in separate twin beds until you have a joint account.

What's the difference? I want my independence on the mattress. All right.

[B]

Give me my own space.

[A]

No little spoon for you, bud.

[B]

Give me no little spoon. What does that mean?

[A]

Do you. You've never heard of spooning?

[B]

Oh, spooning, yes.

[A]

Yeah, but. Little spoon, little spoon, big spoon.

[B]

If you're a.

[A]

Little spoon's on the outside, little spoons on the inside.

[B]

I hear you.

[A]

It's like Winston prefers to be a little spoon, famously.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

Winston's never gonna hear this.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Fun visual.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That was Winston being cradled by me.

That's great. That was a fun one. How fun?

[B]

Yeah. I'm just impressed. I can't. I can't break it, George. I just. You're not to be rattled.

[A]

I have an unbreakable spirit.

[B]

You are not to be rattled.

[A]

Honestly. Terrible at debates. No.

[B]

Are you kidding? I feel like you did fantastic.

[A]

Thank you. I think you're doing A great job. I'm really. I'm throwing some curveballs at you here.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

Yeah. It's a sports reference.

[B]

Thank you. And a scammer reference. Yeah. But you know what you can avoid for scammers and spammers? Delete me.

[A]

No curve balls there. I avoid the curve balls of the Internet.

[B]

You know exactly what you're getting. The pitch is right down the line with delete me. Because you know they are going to remove your data from data broker websites that actually end up selling your data, and that puts you at risk for robocalls and text, spam and all of it. Right. They remove it. And that's what we love.

[A]

They hit it out of the park. They have data privacy experts that work behind the scenes all year long to find this information online and then remove it. And they'll send you a report showing you what they've done, what they removed, how much time it saved you. And it gives me great joy and peace of mind whenever I see that new report come in. And in my heart, not out loud, I say, thanks, Delete me.

[B]

Thanks, DeleteMe. Yeah. They will never strike you out of a game because the game of life is expensive. And we have to hold our data closely because our names and addresses and kids names and all of it is out there. And when it is gone and erased, we say, safe.

Wow.

[A]

That was actually. You landed the plane beautifully on that analogy.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And for that, I think they should all go to joindeleteme.com smartmoney because they'll get 20% off their annual plans. So check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes as well. That's joindeleteme.com/smart money. Play ball.

No one's listening.

[B]

We got like six baseball references.

[A]

They're either angry at that or impressed. There's no in between.

[B]

I know. I hope they love it.

[A]

Is no in between.

[B]

I hope they love it. We will see.

[A]

All right.

[B]

All right, George. Next up, we got tithing.

[A]

This is controversial. Wow. Wow. Okay.

[B]

Yes. And I'm. And I'm going to be playing devil's advocate over here.

[A]

Here's the Ramsey take on tithing. If you are a person of faith, those are the people. That's why we call it the tithe. That's biblical. And we say that's 10% of your income. Now, gross or net, you can decide. We think you're gonna get into heaven either way, but we think that prioritizing generosity changes you from the inside out. It'll make money Feel less stressful. It'll make money more joyful. When you live life with an open hand, when you put giving first. And my friend Rachel Cruz has this great quote, give a little until you can give a lot. So just be generous with what you have. And when you have more, you. You'll give even more. And if you're not religious, you can still use your money to do good in the world by giving to organizations, to specific people in need. It's just a beautiful thing to be generous. What do you have against generosity, Rachel?

[B]

Devil's advocate. Well, I'm paying off debt and trying to get myself in a place where I can actually not have to live paycheck to paycheck, because, I mean, we barely. And we get maybe $120 extra per month in margin, and then my husband works two extra jobs, and we are trying to get out of debt as quickly as possible. And so the fact that we have to take some of that money and give it away, like, we just. We're not in a space to do that right now.

[A]

That's tough to argue with, Rachel, I would say.

[B]

And I have three kids at home. Three kids, Very hard.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. How old's the youngest?

[B]

Eight days old.

[A]

Eight days. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Well, hey, you know, what can I. Do you have a meal train link? I'd love to bring you guys a meal just out of generosity.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

It's very nice. I think I should go first and be generous.

[B]

Very nice. But, yeah, Yeah, I just. We don't have any room to give right now, but our hope is that someday we will.

[A]

Do you think that, you know, God would. Would bless your generosity if you just gave what you could? Because it's a matter of the heart.

[B]

I don't do prosperity. It's not a bad prosperity. No. Whoa, whoa.

[A]

Oh. You're not gonna get more money.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Slow that down.

[A]

Here's what I'm saying. Do you think it would change your spirit if you were just able to.

[B]

Give as much as you felt able to? Stress and anxiety.

[A]

Wow.

That'S tough. Can I pray for you guys?

[B]

That was pretty good.

[A]

Yeah. This. Well, this is one of the tougher ones.

[B]

That's a hard one.

[A]

It's especially hard. Here's the other thing. If you're not a religious person, you think that tithe is some sort of, like, culty scam?

[B]

Sure. Well, especially giving to a church. Yes.

[A]

What are they doing with it? You know, there's a lot of cynicism towards how the church handles money.

[B]

And people of faith should have levels of question of what their church is doing with money too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's just not non religious people.

[A]

That's a whole nother thing of your tithing. Where is the money going?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is it going to pay off debts that you wish they didn't take on?

[B]

That is hard.

[A]

That's a hot take.

[B]

That's hard. If your church has debt and it's like going to bank of America to build another. Build their own build. You know what I'm saying? You're like, oh, man, that feels. That feels off.

[A]

That is a tough one.

[B]

Yep. I will say this is one topic I don't like to be legalistic on.

[A]

Yeah. It felt weird for me to be like, well, Rachel, you should do it anyways because it's the law.

[B]

I know. I know the law. And so I think, yeah, there's a reality to life. And this is not one of these. You know, I think we kind of have a hard and fast rule for it at Ramsey. And I kind of like that. I kind of like having a stance and then your own personal situation and conviction. You can decide what you want to do with this topic.

[A]

I've never judged someone for not doing it.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

No, no, no, no. But I think there is something to be said overall when you live life with an open hand, that it does change you and it changes you over time. And I think it just makes you. When you want to win with money and you want to do well with money, it just doesn't become all about you because that starts to be empty really fast. So I don't know. There is something. It's great about it. And again, wherever you want to give, I think is great too. So you get to decide. But yes, if you are a. I would say, yes, a Christian and you're in church, I think helping your local church is a beautiful thing, but also the least of these. You know, I mean, I think it's a big deal what we're called to. And I think that's a great part of humanity when you're giving. That's why our. I think we. And we go to the same church, they actually give a portion of the tithe to the community. Like they tithe on the tithe kind of thing.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And they have like 10 different organizations around Nashville that they give to, which I love. I'm like, that's. I think that's amazing.

[A]

Is something I do look into. Like what is the church's. I like when they're transparent about what they're doing, why they're doing it. And our church had a whole thing where they, they wanted to become debt free and pay off the mortgage aggressively, and they did it in a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I, I like knowing that, like, the money now is just going to fund the new stuff, not to pay for the old stuff.

[B]

Yes, totally. Y.

[A]

That's not a. That's not a. You know, if your church has debt, I'm not saying leave. We did get that question before. The church was about to take on debt.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And he was like, should I stay? I was like, if it's going to affect. If it's going to eat you alive, I don't think you should stay.

[B]

Yes. Right, right. If. Yeah, if any issue of the church happens and you're like, I can't keep.

[A]

Doing this, then if you don't trust the leadership, get out of there. But I don't think they're evil either for. For doing that. All right, next up.

Paying down low interest debt.

[B]

Ooh. Okay, so you want to be devil's advocate on this one?

[A]

I guess so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I have to defend why I'm not going to pay down my low interest debt.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I'm gonna hang on to the debt.

[B]

Hang on to the debt.

[A]

Okay, what is the Ramsey stance on this?

[B]

Yeah, so we would say for sure, getting out of all debt is necessary, regardless of the interest rate. And as you're paying off debt, you actually want to pay off the lowest amount of debt versus the lowest interest rate. And so when you are completely debt free and there are no payments, you get to use your whole income for you and your family and to give and to save and do everything we're talking about. So, yeah, there's power in having no debt, even if the interest on the debt is small.

[A]

Okay, now here's the situation. I have student loans and I have a really low interest rate. It's 3.2%.

And I have the money, I could pay it off, but I'm making 4% in my high yield savings account right now. So why would I pay that off?

[B]

Yeah. So that's a debate, a mathematical debate. We hear a lot, and not usually even about low interest debt, but sometimes mortgages and even recent mortgages, you know, 8%. But what's interesting is when you actually factor in when you are debt free mathematically, how much faster you start to build wealth, and then also the other effects of debt that are not in a spreadsheet, but your stress, your anxiety when you Owe someone something, it changes your decisions in life. And so even though you don't feel like it's a big deal and you. And you even have the money to pay it off.

[A]

Yeah, I could pay it off. I'm doing fine.

[B]

Yep. So I would tell you, just pay it off. And if you hate being debt free, you can go get a low interest personal loan if you want.

[A]

Well, I mean, I'm not going to be 3%. That's a pretty crazy good low rate.

[B]

It is low, but over time, I think it's not about the math. I think it's about the position of what you're choosing to live with. Your money. If you're choosing to live in debt, the borrower is slave to the lender. And over time, when you owe someone money, paycheck after paycheck, there is something to be said about. Yeah. Those payments going out.

[A]

You clearly don't understand arbitrage, Rachel.

[B]

And it shows arbitrage.

[A]

I'm finessing the system. I'm making a spread.

[B]

You're making a spread and everything's fine.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I did a parlay and won.

[B]

Until you on Fanduel. Oh, gosh.

[A]

Against the Rams.

[B]

Going all the way.

[A]

I don't know what any of that meant, but it sounded right.

[B]

And the sports betting. He's winning. He can you.

[A]

Is that what I. Did I say it correctly? Okay, I got a thumbs up. He got it from a sports guy back there.

[B]

Yeah. That was hard. That was hard. And you know when you talk about debt, usually you're talking about banks that have debt available. So to bank with a financial institution that actually is for you, not against you, would be magic.

[A]

Those exist?

[B]

Yes. And it's called Fair Winds Credit Union. They are the most incredible credit union because not only do they encourage you through the Ramsey baby steps, and they want you to be financially free, like a bank wants you to do that. Isn't that crazy? But they also have a great bundle for Ramsey listeners, the Smart Checking and Savings bundle. So you get a checking account, a high Yield savings account, and your own debit card.

[A]

I've loved using the debit card.

[B]

Rams debit card.

[A]

I flaunt it. I'm kind of like, read it.

[B]

Here it is.

[A]

What does it say?

[B]

Be weird.

[A]

Debt is normal. Be weird.

[B]

I love it. I know. But the be weird is big. So everyone's like, wait, what? What?

[A]

And they know. They know this is not a credit card at that point.

[B]

Yes. And it's great. I mean, we. We have shifted a lot of our Money into our Fairwinds checking. And so. And I've been using it all the time and I love it. It's so great.

[A]

And they, because they watched my YouTube video, they went, you know what? We're going to get rid of international fees on our debit cards.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We don't need those. Get rid of those. Let's do what's right for the people. And they just did it. That's how much they want to see you guys win. They're changing the way they do business to help our fans out. And we love them for it. They're amazing people, an amazing credit union. Go check them out. Go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey today to get that bundle. You're going to get low fees, great rates, great high yield savings account, all that good stuff when you go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey or use the link in the description.

[B]

We love it. Oh, man, what an episode. George.

[A]

This was a sweaty one. It just made me uncomfortable.

[B]

This was like. Yeah, it was much tougher.

[A]

It was like going against your values and principles, even as a game is weirdly difficult.

[B]

Yes. But you were a great debater. I found it hard to like, even though I debate with people or not debate, but we talk about. We talk to people all the time on the Ramsey show.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So I'm used to talking to another person.

[A]

That's what was in my head.

[B]

I think what was weird is if it's you talking, I'm always like, wait, George is evil George.

[A]

What is he doing?

[B]

Evil devil daddy. Well, I channel.

[A]

What I did was channel all of the YouTube comments I've ever seen.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And into one, he just doesn't understand. I'm like, dude, I understand reality. And the reality is most people are broke, anxious, stressed. And if you can remove that by living debt free, going against the grain, living counterculturally, why wouldn't you?

[B]

See, that's the key. That's what I think is a big deal, is if you are not happy with where you are financially. Like, if you are, if you're just sitting there and you're like, I feel stressed. I feel like I'm making no progress. I don't like money. I don't like where I. If it's just a negative subject in your life, then do something different. Like you have to do a complete 180, do something totally different. And that's usually what Ramsey principles are these days. It's kind of this common sense approach to money of live on less than you make, don't take on debt. Save up and pay for things. Have an emergency fund. Like, again, it's like pretty common sense principles, but most people can't.

[A]

Won't.

[B]

Whatever you want to say, do it. So that's what I would encourage you. If you're not happy with where you are financially, do something totally different.

[A]

This does feel like a little bit of that comfort crisis, kind of Michael Easter vibe of just. We're comfortable with the payments. We're comfortable with the low interest. We're comfortable having our own bank account. Everything's about us and our comfort. And I think having a little bit of discomfort for a season to get to a place where you're set financially, you're not stressed, you have a better marriage.

[B]

We're truly safe financially. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Owe people money. You got money in the bank.

[B]

You have no risks. Yes. You have your own money there if you need it. So it's an amazing thing, you guys. Amazing thing.

[A]

And if you need a place to start. The reason I was so good at debate club is because I wrote a book about this called Breaking Free from Broke, where I go through every objection I've heard. I break down this whole debt system.

[B]

It's a great book, y'.

[A]

All. A lot of stats. I just hit you where I know. I'm reading your mail in this book, so I hope it'll help you overcome some of the objections you might have when it comes to the Ramsey Principle. So you can check it out. It's called Breaking Free from Broken. There's also an audiobook that's really fun as well. Yeah.

[B]

And also check out EveryDollar. It's Ramsey's app that looks over your entire financial picture. So not just your monthly budget, which is so great at doing that, but also your whole financial roadmap. It's like, where you are with everything, and it's walking you through the Ramsey way of doing money. And so it is so helpful. We'll put a link down below to make sure to check it out as well.

[A]

A lot of goodies in the description.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. George who?

[A]

All right. I need a drink.

[B]

We need a drink. I know. What is. What's the milk again? The bourbon milk. What's it called?

[A]

This is a bourbon milk punch, And I gotta say, it's the best bourbon milk punch I've had.

[B]

I think it's good.

[A]

It is reminiscent of eggnog without the viscosity, the thickness. Wow.

[B]

Yes. What a word.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, sometimes eggnog, you're like, that was.

[B]

I know. I wanna like eggnog.

[A]

It can be. If it's made fresh, it hits.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

When I'm like a bottle, it's.

[B]

Or a carton.

[A]

A carton.

[B]

Ooh. That's what I've done. That's my. Or a jug.

[A]

We were juggy.

[B]

Eggnog.

[A]

Yeah, jug. Anything that's in mass. Quantity worries.

[B]

No, that's what I.

[A]

That's what I needed to be artisanal.

[B]

Where do you get fresh eggnog?

[A]

You make it. Wow. It has to be fresh.

[B]

How's. How's that?

[A]

I've never done it, but I. I like friends who would make it fresh.

[B]

Yeah. That is very nice.

[A]

Like Michael. Michael Reddish.

[B]

He made.

[A]

Makes a great eggnog cocktail.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, really delicious, man. We may need that next.

[A]

So shout out to Michael Reddish. By the way, this is his 100th cocktail he has made for us on Smart Money Happy hour, so.

[B]

I can't believe it.

[A]

Thank you, Michael, for a lot of great drinks. A few bad ones in there, but mostly amazing cocktails made with love. We appreciate you, Michael.

[B]

We appreciate you so much. So good. Okay, so what's in it? Or no. Yeah, rate it. I'm going nine out of 10.

[A]

Yeah, I'm going nine out of 10. I could not improve on it. Now, I'm not a huge fan of dairy in my drinks, but this, this is the best one I've had. It's got bourbon, whole milk, simple syrup, vanilla extract and nutmeg. Freshly grated, I might add. Cause Michael goes the extra mile.

[B]

He did a little.

[A]

He's back there doing that.

[B]

Just a little. At his little bar, that eggnog.

[A]

The total cost, $3.18.

[B]

Oh, it's a little pricey.

[A]

Well, you know, that's what class will cost you these days, Rachel.

[B]

I'll debate that.

[A]

No, it's a good one. Get the recipe in the show notes. Give it a try this weekend. If you're of age. It's a great seasonal drink to make.

[B]

All right, George, now it's time for Guilty as charged. And this is where we ask each other a guilty as charged question every week. And if we're guilty, we take a sip. All right, George, question. Have you ever unintentionally broken the law and were there financial consequences?

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Unintentionally broken the law.

[A]

I'm trying to think of a time you would break the law but then not know you broke the law.

[B]

You know what? That happened. That was me. That happened to me this summer.

[A]

What'd you do.

[B]

Unintentionally. We were at my parents lake house and we took the boat out to go tubing. And so we have like four tubes in the back with all the kids.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I've been on that thing. That's risky. Yes.

[B]

You've been to the lake?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so we have a no wake zone, which means there's like a loading dock where people put boats in and out. So they put buoys around it so people don't fly through and create wake and waves. And it gets hard for people to look around.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. So there's always a no wake zone, which means you gotta just like.

[A]

It's like a school zone.

[B]

Yeah. Great way of putting it. Great way of putting it. And if we have tubes, the kids are on the tubes through the no wake zone. But we just slowly go slow through.

[A]

The wake zone with the tubes.

[B]

So we see a boat going with lights.

[A]

Siren on top.

[B]

Yeah, a little light. And the. The sheriff, the lake sheriff. Sheriff of the county. I don't know, whatever. The came. Yes. Pulled us over.

[A]

How do you get pulled over in a boat?

[B]

I mean, they just come up kind of like anchor to you. And they were like, yeah, you're gonna be fine. Because you can't have. You can't have objects or people outside the boat during. Through a no wick zone. So like, you can't have the tubes out. You have to pull the tubes in. And I'm like, what we have, That's a law. Never. My mom and dad bought the lake house they'd been there for in 2001. It was right before September 11, 2001, when they bought the lake house. Which is crazy to remember. So y', all, it's been over. Yeah, 24 years. For 24 years, never have we ever pulled in things from the back of the boat.

[A]

I didn't even know.

[B]

I genuinely didn't even know that was a law or a rule. And I was like, is that a new. And they were like, no. I was like, oh, my gosh. We've been breaking the law for 24 years.

[A]

Can they retroactively find you? I don't know.

[B]

That'd be a lot. So anyways, then they asked for the title of the boat. Well, the tags were expired on the boat. So then we had to call dad and be like, oh, what do we do? Oh my gosh. And so he's like on speakerphone, he's like, well, just pay the bill. Pay it, pay the ticket, you know. Well, none of us have a license. Oh, no, except for my sister in law who wasn't even driving. And she ended up paying the. Paying the ticket for us. So I think we're supposed to all venmo her back. I'm not sure if we did, Allison. I'm not sure if we did.

[A]

Sorry, Allison.

[B]

Sorry, Allison. Daniel, how much was it?

[A]

What's a boat fine cost, maybe.

[B]

Maybe like 200 bucks. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I know the water popo. Who would have known?

[B]

And then the funniest thing is when we got off the phone with dad, one of the sheriff guys was like, is this gonna be on the show tomorrow? And I was like, do you know who we are?

[A]

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

He wouldn't wave it as a one time like you would expect.

[B]

You kind of thought it'd be a little like, I'm debt free, Dave is. Thank you. You know, and like, help us out.

[A]

Just like, hey, don't let it happen again. Stay safe out here. Be a cool sheriff on the water.

[B]

I don't one of those. But no, they were ready to give a ticket.

[A]

You guys weren't hunting game illegally, like, just be cool, man.

[B]

Yeah, we were just taking some tubes through a no wig zone.

[A]

That guy had to make his quota that day.

[B]

Hashtag. You know, I think that all the time when I get a ticket where I'm like, they totally could have just let me off because it wasn't that big of a deal. Do they have quotas to me cops?

[A]

I think that's a real thing.

[B]

Tell us in the comments if you're a cop.

[A]

If you're a cop, you have to legally tell us if you're a cop in the comments.

[B]

But I do mine.

[A]

Yeah, we did get. We got ambushed by police. We were skateboarding in Charlestown outside of Boston at these great ledges they had.

[B]

How old were you?

[A]

Famous ledges? Well, it's probably 15.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they came out of the bushes like a SWAT team.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

And they started just chasing us around. And if you're a skateboarder, you just start running, you know. And so I ran like the dickens and they ended up catching us all.

[B]

Did they like tackle you to the ground? Like, how do you catch.

[A]

No, I mean, they. I think that it maybe was some grabbing because, you know, we're.

[B]

George, That's a great story.

[A]

So they ended up. They didn't arrest us. What they did was they took our skateboards away and they said, you can come to this precinct in the most dangerous part of Boston. And Pick it up after 10pm What? That was our punishment.

[B]

Okay. Why is it illegal to skateboard?

[A]

You know, like no trespassing, no ski. They have like some no skateboarding signs.

[B]

Wow. I guess technically it was skateboarding.

[A]

There's trespassing, maybe destruction of property because you're, you know, jumping up onto ledges and grinding on them and you know.

[B]

Oh, no. Okay, sure.

[A]

You know, we were kids skateboarding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We weren't doing drugs.

[B]

But you ran from the cops, George.

[A]

Yeah. Not the first time when you're skateboarding in Boston. No, it happened. It happened pretty often in Boston. Security guards, you know, you're on private property, you're skateboarding. You see a security guard, you run. That's how it goes.

[B]

So.

[A]

And usually you can outrun them because no offense, they weren't in as good a shape as a 15 year old skateboarder.

[B]

Totally. You just, you know, run a little hard out.

[A]

It's like Paul Mall Cop and you're running away.

[B]

Run, George, run.

[A]

So yeah, that's probably unintentional. I'm not trying to break the law. We're just kids having.

[B]

You're just skateboarding and then it happens. That's fair. That's fair.

[A]

So don't do anything illegal, guys.

[B]

No financial consequences though.

[A]

I guess you did. You had to pay a bill.

[B]

I still owe owe my sister in law some money for that ticket.

[A]

Allison, we have it on good record. Rachel's getting you a really nice Christmas gift this year.

[B]

I promise I will make up, make it up to you. Well, if you have a guilty as charged question, make sure to DM us at Rachel Cruz and at George Camel because we love your guilty as charged questions and if you enjoyed this episode, you're going to love our episode. We dedicated an entire episode to respond to the haters. Some more dicey conversations coming up next. And make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an all new episode of Smart Money Happy Hour.