We Question Dr. Arthur Brooks on the Secret to Happiness

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Smart Money Happy Hour with Rachel Cruze and George Kamel

Episode: We Question Dr. Arthur Brooks on the Secret to Happiness
Date: March 26, 2026
Guest: Dr. Arthur Brooks (Harvard Professor, Author, Happiness Expert)

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Arthur Brooks, acclaimed Harvard professor and happiness researcher, as Rachel Cruze and George Kamel dive deep into the science behind happiness—especially as it relates to money, purpose, personal growth, and relationships. The conversation is lighthearted, playful, and transparent, weaving personal anecdotes, scientific research, and actionable advice around living a more meaningful and joyful life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Arthur Brooks' Unconventional Journey

• Background: Dr. Brooks shares his path from classical musician (French horn), to academia, to happiness researcher.
  • Left college early to play professionally and lived in Barcelona before returning to finish his degree via correspondence.
  • "They invited me to pursue my success elsewhere." (03:48, Brooks)
• Family: His parents were both college professors; eventually, he shifted from music to public policy analysis and then behavioral economics.
• Idea: "I was always interested in why people do weird stuff for their money." (08:08, Brooks)

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2. The Science of Giving and Happiness

• Charitable Giving Boosts Happiness:
  • "When people who give the most to charity, they're happiest, they're healthiest, they get the richest, and they're the best looking." (09:05, Brooks)
  • Study: Generosity makes you more attractive to your spouse – the more you give, the more your partner likes you. (09:38)
  • Financial ROI: For every $1 given, you make approximately $3.75 more in the long run due to increased confidence and self-efficacy. (10:01)
• Actionable Takeaway: Give more to become the person you want, and to boost your happiness, health, and wealth.

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3. Four Ways Money Can Buy (or Ruin) Happiness

• Positive Ways to Use Money:
  1. Give it away (charity/generosity)
  2. Buy experiences, especially with loved ones
  3. Buy time—spend it learning or loving (personal growth or connection)
  4. Save—especially for the future and for your family
     "Saving money is unbelievably good for happiness..." (11:12, Brooks)
• Negative:
  • Buying “stuff” (consumption) doesn’t create lasting happiness—especially if it leads to debt.
  • "Debt on consumption always brings misery. Always." (11:45, Brooks)

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4. Why Buying Stuff Doesn't Work: The Psychology of Happiness & Misery

• Arrival Fallacy & Hedonic Treadmill:
  • “If I have this stuff… I will have arrived.” This positive feeling doesn’t last; your brain craves new rewards instead of lasting satisfaction. (12:08–13:28)
  • "That’s why a billionaire, after earning their first billion, only thinks, ‘I need another billion.’" (13:14)
• Progress Principle:
  • True happiness comes from progress, not “arriving.” Setting and working toward meaningful goals brings satisfaction. (13:28)
• Life Requires Purpose:
  • “Purpose is part of meaning, and meaning is part of happiness.” (14:25, Brooks)

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5. Can Money Buy Happiness?

• Nuanced View:
  • "Money won’t buy happiness, but if you use it properly, it allows you to order your life so that happiness finds you." (15:21)
  • Having money can remove sources of unhappiness (basic needs, emergencies, etc.), particularly when you’re starting out. (15:49)
• Happiness vs. Unhappiness:
  • They operate in separate parts of the brain—having less unhappiness is different than having more happiness. (16:13)
• Warning: Chasing higher income for its own sake (hoping for more happiness) often backfires: "People chase, chase, chase that feeling for the rest of their lives... life gets more complicated because you got more junk in your life." (17:32)

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6. Building Hope and Meaning in Life

• Hope vs. Optimism:
  • Optimism: Passive (“It’ll be fine”).
  • Hope: Active, “It’s taking an active role in making things better.” (20:09)
  • "To feel more hopeful is to do more." (20:09)
  • Action is essential—don’t just wish, get to work.
• Faith, Hope, and Love: St. Paul’s virtues are practical: Be faithful by your actions, hopeful by changing the odds, and loving through deeds. (21:20)

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7. Dr. Brooks’ Neuroscience-Based Marriage Protocol

Four simple but powerful actions for couples:

1. Eye Contact: Stimulates oxytocin, key for bonding (25:04)
2. Touch: "Always be touching" – even non-sexual touch builds connection (26:02)
3. Fun Together: Prioritize fun experiences to ‘pour clean water’ into a relationship, rather than only focusing on problems. (28:22)
4. Pray/Meditate Together: "The most intimate thing that couples can do. ...When couples start praying together, their marriage becomes a channel to something greater." (29:16)
   • If not religious, shared meditation or reading together also works.

"Four steps: stare into her eyes, always be touching, have more fun, and say your prayers together tonight." (30:03, Brooks)
“Simple but not easy.” (30:12)

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8. Crisis of Meaning & The Right Brain

• Biggest Cultural Issue: Crisis of meaning, especially for those under 35. (32:26)
  • Social media, digital life, and virtual interactions replace authentic connection, causing an epidemic of meaninglessness, anxiety, and depression. (33:27)
• Solution: Detox from tech, re-engage with real-world relationships, purpose, and the “right brain” (creativity, spirituality, human connection). (34:00)
  • Brooks’ upcoming book, The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness, explores these themes.

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9. Redefining Prosperity for Young Adults

• Update the Scoreboard:
  • Young people may not match their parents in material milestones (e.g., home ownership), but may have greater freedom or opportunities. (35:08–36:27)
  • Prosperity is more than possessions. Recalibrate goals toward the person you want to be, not just what your parents achieved.
• Key Areas for Wellbeing: In Brooks’ surveys, students consistently list, in order:
  1. Family
  2. Faith/Philosophy
  3. Career
• "Be more businesslike about number one and two [family, faith], not just your career." (36:35)
• The Four Pillars of Happiness:
  • Faith
  • Family
  • Friendship
  • Work
    (38:54, Brooks)

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10. Personality & Happiness

• The OCEAN Personality Traits:

  • Openness
  • Conscientiousness
  • Extraversion
  • Agreeableness
  • Neuroticism
    (43:02)

• Genetic Origins: Personality traits are 40–80% genetic.

• Introverts vs. Extroverts:

  • Introverts: Fewer but deeper relationships.
  • Extroverts: More, but shallower connections.
  • “Happiness is positively correlated with openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and negatively with neuroticism.” (46:23)

• Rumination (Overthinking):

  • “Being in your head and overthinking is called rumination... It comes from the Latin ‘ruminare,’ to chew the cud.” (47:24)
  • Rumination helps with problem-solving, creativity, and even falling in love, but can contribute to depression or anxiety.

• Affect Profiles:

  • Mad Scientist: High positive & negative emotion (intense highs and lows)—many entrepreneurs and show hosts fall here.
  • Cheerleader: High positive, low negative emotion.
  • Judge: Low intensity for both.
  • Poet: High negative, low positive—most creative people.
  • “Most successful entrepreneurs and CEOs are mad scientists.” (51:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When people who give the most to charity, they're happiest, they're healthiest, they get the richest, and they're the best looking." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (09:05)
• "The more he gave to the homeless man, the hotter she finds him, the more attractive." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (09:38)
• "Debt on consumption always brings misery. Always." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (11:45)
• "If I have this stuff... I will have arrived. And the positive affect... is going to stick around." — Dr. Arthur Brooks on the arrival fallacy (12:08)
• "Purpose is part of meaning, and meaning is part of happiness." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (14:25)
• "Hope is to take an active role in making things better." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (20:09)
• "Eye contact, always be touching, fun together, and pray together—those are the secret to a happy marriage." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (30:03)
• "We're all living in a simulation right now. If your friends are on Instagram and your sense of achievement comes from gaming, you're living in the Matrix, man." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (33:27)
• "Redefine prosperity. Update your scoreboard for your own era." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (36:27)
• "The pillars of the happiest life are faith, family, friendship, and work." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (38:54)
• "Happiness is positively correlated with openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and negatively correlated with neuroticism." — Dr. Arthur Brooks (46:23)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:48 — Arthur on leaving college and chasing music in Barcelona
• 09:05 — The science of generosity and its unexpected benefits
• 11:26 — Four ways money can boost happiness; the warning on buying “stuff”
• 13:28 — Why buying stuff doesn’t work: Arrival fallacy and the progress principle
• 20:09 — Distinction between hope (action) and optimism (passivity)
• 25:04 — Neuroscience-based advice for stronger marriages (eye contact, touch, fun, prayer)
• 32:26 — The crisis of meaning for young people and its societal roots
• 34:00 — The “six months to meaning” plan from Brooks' upcoming book
• 36:35 — Family and faith over career: the new scoreboard for happiness
• 43:02 — Personality traits and their link to happiness (OCEAN)
• 47:24 — Rumination: the double-edged sword of creativity and worry
• 51:00 — “Mad scientist” affect profile—why emotional intensity may be a success marker

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Tone, Style, and Humor

• The episode blends Brooks' expertise and research with humor and playful banter from all three speakers.
• Memorable games and audience questions fuel lively, engaging, relatable conversation.
• "Reader Love poetry tonight in bed while you're holding hands..." (30:30)—captures the playful and approachable tone throughout.

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Final Notes

Dr. Arthur Brooks leaves listeners with a message that happiness is not a destination, but a process driven by giving, deep human connection, meaningful goals, and mindful action. Money can serve to enable happiness—but only when used intentionally. Listeners are encouraged to consider their own "scoreboards" and take small, concrete steps toward a more meaningful life.

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For further learning, listeners are directed to check out Dr. Brooks’ new book, The Meaning of Your Life, and related free virtual events.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, guys, Rachel Cruze here. Listen, we need your help. We have a survey coming out around Smart Money Happy Hour and we wanna make this show even better in 2026. But it's up to you to help us.

[B]

So here's how you help us. Text the word smart to this number 33789 or go to ramseysolutions.com smart to take the survey. And no pressure, but we need to beat a world record here. So take it asap.

[A]

Help us out and you could win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.

[B]

Who knows if you want to help us out and get a chance to win an Amazon gift card while you're at it, go take it. The survey closes April 10. So time is of the essence. A Harvard professor, a bestselling author, and a happiness expert walk into a bar. Just kidding. It's all one person. We are joined today by the one and only Dr. Arthur Brooks.

[A]

I think it's kind of a scam.

[C]

What? Dentists. We are in the south, aren't we? Reader Love poetry tonight.

[B]

I don't know if I can Google that on a work computer. Love poetry to read at bedtime. What are the other ways that people can increase happiness in their lives?

[C]

How else do you buy happiness? Number one, it's really simple.

[A]

Hey, guys, I'm Rachel Cruze.

[B]

I'm George Camel.

[C]

And I'm Arthur Brooks.

[A]

And this is Smart Money Happy Hour. Cheers.

[C]

Cheers. Cheers.

[A]

We got a healthy mocktail for you.

[B]

It's so healthy. This is the most boring drink we've had on the show. Thank God.

[C]

Salty, salty, salty. I like it.

[A]

It's a little rim.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I'm feeling more energetic as we speak.

[A]

I'm so glad. Well, this is the show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events and money.

[B]

And today we are sipping on a very exciting electrolyte mocktail. Don't go running for the recipe, kids. We're gonna give you our rating and reveal the cost per glass at the end of the episode. So stick around for that.

[A]

All right, so today we obviously have a special guest on. Arthur Brooks is with us. Thanks for being here.

[C]

I love being here. Thank you.

[A]

I know you've, like, done the gamut of Ramsey stuff. I feel like you've been on our shows and everything and we thought if we can rope you into Smart Money Happy Hour, it's the most fun. It's the most fun you're gonna have today.

[C]

So I've heard.

[B]

Loosen up, man.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I'm just like. I'm super stressed out.

[B]

I've never seen you stressed. I'd like to see it.

[C]

To be honest, inside, I'm just tightly wounded.

[B]

Well, you teach on the science of happiness, how to cultivate it, how to sustain it, and this podcast just so happens to be called Smart Money Happy Hour.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

And I feel like we have not brought the happy as much as we should.

[C]

Okay, let's talk about this.

[B]

Feels serendipitous that you're here today.

[A]

Yeah, we're excited. Okay, so before we dive in to a lot of the stuff, we have a quick quiz that we want to know your money tendencies. Okay. And just rapid fire, right? Are you a spender or a saver?

[C]

Saver.

[A]

Nerd or free spirit?

[C]

Nerdish. Free spirit.

[A]

Okay. When you buy things, would you rather buy experiences or items?

[C]

Experiences.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I was gonna say quality or quantity?

[C]

Quality.

[A]

Safety or status?

[C]

Safety.

[A]

Abundance or scarcity? Mindset.

[C]

Abundance.

[A]

Okay. When you're giving, are you more of a spontaneous giver or a pre planned giver?

[C]

Preplanned.

[A]

All right.

[B]

He nailed it. He knows there's no right answers, and yet he got them. All right.

[C]

It's because I watch your show.

[B]

Gosh, keep watching our channel. You'll get there one day.

[A]

That's good. That's good. Arthur, you. You've done a lot in your career. Higher ed is your. I guess the. The first.

[C]

It's kind of my home. It's sort of my platform, although it's not how I started out. I started out as a classical musician. I Left College at 19 at the invitation of the college.

[A]

Okay, the invitation invited you to leave?

[C]

They invited me to pursue my success elsewhere. Yeah.

[A]

So why. What were you. What was the.

[C]

Not taking my required classes? I had stopped taking my required classes, and instead I was studying North Indian classical drumming and Indonesian dance. And it turns out that that's not the secret to success because you just,

[A]

like, were really interested in that.

[C]

Because I'm a nerd. Free spirit.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. You know, and so I was doing that. All I really wanted to do was to play the French horn professionally. And that's all I wanted to do since I was nine years old. I wanted to be the world's greatest French horn player. And. And college was just. It was just a complete distraction. And so your parents made you go?

[A]

Was it a parental.

[C]

That's what we did. My dad is a college professor. His dad was a college professor.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, we're. This is the family Business is what it was. And so that's what everybody did. It was weird. I mean, for the longest time, I wasn't just the first one who hadn't gone to college. I was the first one who didn't have a PhD for a long time.

[B]

I know, you rebellious French horn player, you.

[C]

Yeah, so I had a gap decade and I went on the road. A lot of it was in Barcelona playing in the symphony. And so it went really well. But. And. But by my late 20s, it was. I was married and starting.

[B]

Is that where you met your wife?

[C]

No, I actually went there chasing my wife. I met my wife on a concert tour in stocking region of France. I know today it would be like a restraining order to be a whole thing, Right? It would be on the Internet, it would be bad. But in 1988, it turns out that guys could get away with that. No, I met. We met at a music festival in France where she was studying as a student and I was on tour. And she didn't speak a word of English and I didn't speak a word of Spanish, no way. Or Catalan, which are her two languages. And we went out on a few dates and I went home, told my dad I'd met the woman I was going to marry, and he's like, great, let's meet her. And I said, I got some problems. She doesn't live in the United States, she doesn't speak English, she doesn't know we're going to get married. And so one thing led to another. I went and I visited and I got a job in Barcelona in the orchestra where she lived, and I moved there. So I sold everything I owned.

[A]

Are you fluent in Spanish now?

[C]

I am now, yeah. Because we've been married for 34 years and our language at home is this. Is this weird Spanglish mix. Yes, With a lot of Catalan thrown in. Catalan is another language. It's a completely different language. So I've had to learn both of those. And the result is that, you know, 34 years later, our communication has marginally improved.

[A]

It's happened. Okay, so you did all that and then decided to go back to school?

[C]

Yeah, when I was in my late 20s. Well, I did my bachelor's degree. I did my bachelor's degree first, and I didn't have any money because I was still a musician. It was a nice thing to do for a living, but it's not exactly lucrative. And I wasn't going into debt, no way, no how. So I went to correspondence school, which in those days was like A fax machine and textbooks.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

There was no online to speak of when I was doing that. And that was in 1989. 1990, mostly 1991 and 1992 was when I was doing all that stuff when I was 20. Actually 27, 28. I graduated a month before my 30th birthday. Graduation day. I got my diploma in the mail and I was living in Florida by that point. We had left Barcelona and I was teaching in a music conservatory in Florida. And it was graduation day and I got my diploma and I kind of padded out to the mailbox and it had the thing it said, do not fold, and it was folded. This is like sad diploma, college life.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

And then I went, got a master's degree in person at the local state university. And then I left music at 31 and started my PhD.

[A]

Okay, and you got your PhD in.

[C]

And public policy analysis with my fields were applied microeconomics and mathematical modeling. I took a complete.

[A]

So. So you go from there. But then now you are a. Yeah. I don't even know what you just said. Everyone's like laughing after.

[B]

After you just said, we don't have time to get into it. Just think Pythagorean theorem.

[C]

Yeah, sorry, Pythagorean. Technical stuff. Technical stuff.

[B]

And then. Yeah, you made a pivot into behavioral science. Social science.

[C]

In my PhD I was really a bit. I was a. Doing behavioral economics, meaning that I'm really interested in how people behave and why they do. That's super interesting to me. So the first thing I started doing research on after I finished my PhD, I took a teaching position at Georgia State and then after three years moved to Syracuse, which is a really great school in public policy. But I was doing the behavioral elements behind why people give to charity and why people do weird things with their money. I was always interested in why people do weird stuff for their money.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Like give it away for nothing. Why do they do that? I wanted to know why that is. And so I wrote about philanthropy and charity and love and generosity.

[A]

And so out of that, did you find the most happy people while you were studying that?

[C]

For sure. Not only that, I found that when people who give the most of charity, they're happiest, they're healthiest, they get the richest, and they're the best looking.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

I tell you, there's a study. This is a great study.

[A]

We're both givers.

[C]

I know. It's a wonderful study. Here's how they conducted the study, these behavioral scientists in England. They have the, you know, the couples they recruited, couples, some of them been dating for, you know, six months, some have been married for 50 years. And they would come in and they would meet the psychologists that were doing the study and they would say, very simple study. I'm going to, I'm going to give you a pocket full of change, sir. And the two of you need to walk down this little path to this other building. And my colleague is waiting for you there and he's going to ask you a couple of questions and you get to keep the money. And they're like simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It turns out it's more complicated than that. They just don't know. They're walking on this path and there's an alleyway where a homeless guy comes wandering out and stops the couple and he says, you got some change? He does. They know that it's part of the experiment. Turns out the homeless guy is a confederate to the experimenters. He's collaborating with them. And then they go to the other building and the psychologist waiting for them, he first asks the man, did you give the homeless guy money? How much? And then he turns to the wife and says, how much do you like him right now? And it turns out the more he gave to the homeless man, the hotter

[A]

she finds him, the more attractive.

[C]

Yeah. News you can use.

[A]

There you go. That's good dating advice.

[B]

You gotta find me a couple homeless

[C]

guys now and by the way, my

[B]

wife to find me more attractive.

[C]

But the ROI on charitable giving is unbelievable too. So as an economist, I took a big, big interest in the fact that you give a dollar on average, a year later you earn $3.75 more.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

It's an unbelievable investment. And the reason is because you build your self efficacy, you see yourself as a problem solver, you have more confidence, you become more effective in the way that you earn your living when you give money away.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so it's just an incredible strategy for becoming the person you want to be.

[A]

Is the general piece, give more.

[C]

Totally. And it's one of the ways that you can use your money and it's one of the ways you'll get happier too. So happiness, health, the whole deal. So that's what I was interested in.

[B]

What are the other ways that people can increase happiness in their lives as it connects to money?

[C]

As with money. Yeah. How else do you buy happiness? So I started off with this. Give your money away, you buying happiness. But there are three other ways to buy happiness. One is to buy experiences and spend the time with the people you love. Right. Not excessively. So you're going into debt. More on that in a second. The second is to buy time and spend the time in things where you're learning or loving. Learning and loving. Right. And that means working on yourself, having edifying experiences, spending time in prayer, connecting to God, or spending time with people that you love. It doesn't count if you hire somebody to cut your yard and you're inside scrolling Instagram. Yep, that's not a net positive. And the third way is to save your money. Saving money is unbelievably good for happiness because you're preparing for the future and you're creating intergenerational wealth. It's like a better life for you in the future, which is wonderful for happiness and a better life for your kids. And nothing feels better than that.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Now, the problem is there's one more way to use your money, which is buying stuff. And that doesn't bring happiness. And that's what everybody does. That's what everybody does. They want that so much that they'll actually go into debt to buy stuff. And that actually brings you negative happiness. Debt on consumption always brings misery. Always.

[A]

Okay, we say that a lot.

[B]

Obviously they don't listen to us, but they listen to our science show.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Our PhD friend over here. What is the science behind that? Because we know, I mean, and we've read the studies of stress goes up. We know even from a spiritual perspective that it usually has a negative effect on someone. But when you're looking at the actual

[C]

science of a person, why is it happening? Yeah, why is it happening? So it has everything to do with the fact that we make. Why do we make the mistake? And then why is it that the progress that we make through saving actually leads to happiness? The mistake that we always make is called the arrival fallacy. If I get to this point, if I have this stuff, if I experience these. These things, I will have arrived. And the positive affect, the positive mood that I get from that's going to stick around. Now, your brain is not made to give you a permanent positive mood. Your emotions exist to accommodate you to the situation at hand. Positive emotions say something good has happened. Do more negative emotions say there's a threat, avoid it. That's all emotions are for. That's all they're for. They're just signals about what's going on around you. And you can't keep an emotional state. If you did, you wouldn't be prepared for the next set of circumstances. You'd be like, oh, if something Good happened. I'm going to remain in this glow, and then a saber toothed tiger will sneak up behind you and you'll be his lunch. And that's, you know, that's all she wrote. And so that's not supposed to happen. But you fool yourself into thinking that mother nature doesn't want you to figure that out. So you'll keep striving because then you say, okay, if the next thing happens, and then you stay in the hunt for the next good thing. That's why a billionaire, the first thing they think is, I mean, that feeling didn't stick around as long as I thought, I guess I need another billion. That's called the hedonic treadmill. In my business, hedonic means feelings. And the treadmill is you never get there.

[A]

You never get there. Yet it's still stationary.

[C]

Now, what brings happiness is not the arrival fallacy. That's what brings unhappiness. What brings it is called the progress principle. And that means we're made for forward progress. We want to make progress in our lives. That's the reason that all diets work, but they never last. Because everybody thinks if the scale goes down, it'll be great. And when the scale gets to its ultimate number, it'll be bliss. And what happens is your reward for hitting your target weight is you never get to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life. Congratulations.

[A]

I enjoy it.

[B]

Awesome. Which is how people see the Ramsay plan. We go, hey, cut it out for now and one day you can live like no one else. And they go, well, Dave said I can't eat out ever again. No, we never said that. So it's a little different than dieting with the money stuff, but it's the same correlation.

[C]

It's the same basic behavioral set of principles. Progress is what brings happiness. By the way, with really strong diets, when people do hit their target weight, 30% develop an eating disorder because they want keep the progress going, they want

[A]

it to be there.

[C]

And so they go past their target weight and they become unhealthy as a result. It becomes a pathology, as a matter of fact. So that's a really important point. So the whole point is life requires goals and direction, and that's the essence of purpose. Purpose is part of meaning and meaning is part of happiness. So that's how we actually have to think about all these things in life. And the reason that we're, that we get this wrong with respect to our money is that because we don't realize that saving and Making a better life for ourselves and for our kids is the progress principle. And going and buying an expensive truck right now with $1,000 a month payment is the arrival fallacy. And that's what people actually get wrong

[A]

and they stay in the cycle. To your point about the consumerism, I

[C]

guess I needed more. I guess I needed a better truck, I guess I needed a better house. I guess I needed a more lavish vacation than I could afford.

[A]

Yeah. So what do you do with the phrase agree or disagree that money can buy happiness? Money can't buy happiness. How would you sum up the subject of money when it comes to money?

[C]

So money won't buy happiness, but what money will do if you use it properly, is it allow you to order your life in such a way that you actually, that happiness finds you, that you enjoy it. So it's a real complicated way of saying, yeah, money can buy happiness, but you have to do it right, you have to spend it, right.

[A]

Yes, yes. Because when you hear that money can buy happiness, money, I think in that phrase, especially in today's world, equates to stuff that if I just had more money.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A bigger house, a nicer car, I'll be happy. Right.

[C]

And that's quite wrong.

[A]

Yes, it's the complete opposite.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Right now, by the way, what money can do is it can eliminate tons of sources of unhappiness when you're at a very low level. And this is one of the reasons that we, that we make this error in our lives with money. Usually when people are very young that they have less, less, you know, financial success, so they have less material wealth. And often they're, they're facing certain sources of deprivation. You get out of college, you have a low paying job and you got 65, roommate in a crummy apartment and the whole thing. And the truth is that a little bit of money actually does eliminate sources of unhappiness. And your brain doesn't distinguish between less unhappy and more happy. Those are actually happening in different parts of the brain. Happiness and unhappiness are not opposites neurocognitively, they're distinct phenomena, as a matter of fact. But you can't net that out. So you're like, I feel better, I feel better. So therefore money makes me feel better. I remember that I didn't go to the dentist once between the ages of 19 and 25 because I didn't have any money and I needed to go to the dentist. And when I finally, at 25, had a job in the symphony in Barcelona. And I had benefits, and I went to the dentist, and he filled 12 cavities.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

And I felt better right now, to be honest. I don't think I went a day during that period without a cigarette, so. So that may have eaten the enamel. Don't worry. I don't smoke anymore, but, you know,

[A]

I don't go to the dentist.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it all evens out.

[A]

I really don't. I think it's kind of a scam.

[C]

What? Dentists. We are in the south, aren't we?

[A]

I went every year and they were like, looks. Good looks. I'm like, what are you really doing? Two years? Like, you look good. I think it's more hereditary.

[C]

Well, it's all. It's. Yeah. They're also making your. Your teeth feel smooth on your tongue. And you're going like, yeah, my teeth are healthy, though.

[B]

Got them soft teeth. So that's.

[C]

But that's the. That's. You know, the whole thing. You know, when. When. When you're young, you're eliminating sources of unhappiness, and you search for that feeling of feeling better with a little bit more money, even though you've got the point where that's not going to work anymore. And people chase, chase, chase, chase that feeling for the rest of their lives. So, wow, man. I went from $25,000 a year to $75,000 a year, and I felt a lot better. So therefore, if I go from $700,000 a year to $750,000 a year, it's going to be awesome. And it's indistinguishable, except your life gets more complicated because you got more junk in your life.

[A]

The more stuff you got to be managing.

[B]

It's that lifestyle crate.

[C]

I love this, by the way. I love this.

[A]

Delicious. With a little bit of that salt rim.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Yep. Here's the rest of our conversation with Arthur Brooks. Okay, so we went on Instagram, George and I did, and we're like, hey, Arthur Brooks is coming on. I got multiple DMs that people were so pumped you were coming on. They're like, what a great combo. I said, I know. Okay, so here are some questions they asked. Okay, question number one. What are practical steps I can take to feel more hopeful in life?

[C]

Yeah. So hope is. Hope is not the same thing as optimism. And that's a very important distinction. People use them as if they're synonyms. Optimism is just prediction. To be optimistic, it's like, everything's gonna be okay. It might not be. Hope is to take an active role in making things better. Hope is to say, something can be done and I can do it. To feel more hopeful is to do more.

[A]

It's action oriented.

[C]

To change the odds.

[A]

Where optimism's like, it'll be fine, and there's a little more positivity to it.

[C]

Get to work.

[B]

There's that old quote. The harder I work, the luckier I get.

[C]

It's weird. It's weird how that actually works. And so. And so the whole point is, you know, for example, you know, I don't. I went to the doctor and the doctor said, you know, your LDL cholesterol's through the roof and the whole thing, and things don't turn around. I mean, you're going to have. We've got some serious issues on our hands where the odds are much higher than they should be for heart attack and stroke, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now you can basically say, everything I think is going to be okay. I need somebody who's going to help me be optimistic about this. Or you can start doing things right, you can actually start eating better, you can start going to the gym, you can actually start paying more attention to the things that will turn that around. The hopeful strategy is the active strategy.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

This is the whole thing with your finances, for example, you can be optimistic that, you know, bad things won't happen to you despite the fact that you're incredibly financially precarious and making dumb decisions. And. And some people do get lucky in their businesses, right? Some people get really, really lucky. Don't worry, don't try to rely on luck. Actually do things differently. Hope is taking things into your own hands. That's why, by the way, it's a theological virtue.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So St. Paul talked about faith, hope and love, that these are the theological virtues that people are supposed to display and they'll have a better life and a happier life if they're faithful. I don't care how you feel. If you feel faith right now, man, that's what you're digesting or something, man. Be faithful.

[A]

But it's the action.

[C]

Be faithful to your spouse, be faithful to your God, be faithful to your business, be faithful to your family, Be hopeful. Take matters into your own hands to change the odds, if those odds can be changed. And of course, be loving notwithstanding how you feel. Because love isn't a feeling any more

[A]

than, you know, it's funny, I was with Dr. John Zaloni this weekend. We had a conference and there was a question that we got from the audience and my go to sometimes with some, especially the marital questions. I'm like, you need to go see a therapist. Like, you really gotta dig in. Like there's eight layers there that y' all really need to work on. And John said, and I'm sure he says this a lot, it just maybe caught me, but he, he said, I want you to start. It was about yelling. They would yell, the way their arguments, how they would escalate. And I went, inner child. I'm like, what was the six year old doing? You know what I mean? I do. I'm like, I went to like, how was your childhood? All of it. And I remember John saying like something along the lines of, you have to start practicing, like today, today you have to start actually doing the practice. Because when you actually start doing actions of change. And yes, the therapy route's great, like understanding you and all of it's great, but the simple actions, the small actions you take even chemically in your brain, you start to change when you you know what I mean? I guess it's creating new habits, like, whatever it is. But when he said that, I thought that's so. I'm like, duh, of course. But there's something so powerful that we have the ability to change. I think sometimes even as people of faith, it's like, I'll just pray about it. I'll just pray about it. I'm not gonna do anything else. I'm just gonna pray about it. And you're like, you have to participate in relationship.

[C]

That's not a hopeful thing to do if you're not participating.

[A]

Yes, you have to participate. It's just optimism and in your life. So even someone's like, how do I become more hopeful? I love your answer because I'm like, yeah, there's an action that has to be happening.

[C]

John is very solid on this. And actually I've been thinking, I mean, a lot of my work these days, because I've done ever since I've been back in academia. I left academia for 11 years to run a company. And since I came back, the world has changed. In the world of behavioral science, it's become way more biological. And so I've had to retrain in a lot of neuroscience over the past seven years, and it's really changed the nature of my work. So the result is I now have more biological protocols for solving a lot of the problems that we're talking about here. And so to the point that you're actually making, I have a four part protocol for changing your brain in a way that will fix your marriage. You want to hear it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Don't leave us hanging on the edge of our seats.

[C]

This is based on the best neuroscience about how couples can actually link to each other in a way that they used to and why they fell in love and they can remember it now. This is not a substitute for fixing things. This is not a substitute for getting rid of verbal abuse, et cetera, et cetera. But these things will go a super long way. Number one, it's really simple. When you're speaking, look at each other in the eyes. Now, the reason for this is because we have a neuropeptide in the brain called oxytocin that's stimulated with the people that we love through eye contact and touch. And that's what couples stop doing. So they bond to each other as kin. So when you marry somebody that's not somebody you're related to, ideally this is somebody who's not related to you, but you make them into kin. And the way that you do that is by bonding to that person neurochemically. It's the same way that you bond instantaneously with your baby when your first baby was born. And when a baby nurses, there's eye contact between the infant and the mother, and both get tons of oxytocin. And that's how they're bonding to each other. It's like Fourth of July.

[A]

Tell me this, is there science between of women actually have higher levels of oxytocin 3x through contact, eye contact. And then men is physical.

[C]

Yeah. So men get more vasopressin, which is a little. Anticipating the second part. But women have three times as much oxytocin, meaning that one of the biggest mistakes that guys make is not realizing that they're starving their wives when they're not looking at them in the eyes. And sometimes it'll be like nine years since they've actually looked at them in the eyes when they talk. So guys will be doing all kinds of stuff, and they're like. And so the first thing I'll say is just stare at her. Not like a psychopath, but if you have to like a psychopath when you're talking to her and she's weirdly going to start feeling better about your marriage. Promise you guaranteed, right? She will be like, I feel like I'm falling back in line.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Second is touch. The role is abt. Always be touching. Always be touching. Couples stop touching. And guys need this anymore.

[A]

You can't just make out, Arthur. When you're married.

[C]

It's if you're women, wives. When you're walking out with your husband's. Link your arm inside his, and he'll be like seven feet tall. Why? Because he's actually this vasopressin in his brain, the neuropep.

[B]

I would take six feet, just to be honest. Just saying, like, seven feet.

[C]

I'm shrinking to six feet.

[A]

That is so funny, because for a lot of men, they'll even say, like, the love language, whatever they say, physical touch, but it's not sex. Like, that's what Winston. He's like, it's not that. He's like, I just. And he'll say it to me, Arthur, sometimes. Can I just have a hug? He does. He just is like, I just want to be. And I'm like, yeah. So it's.

[C]

So hold his hand when you're in church, hold his hand when you're sitting, when you're watching tv, hold his hand. That's right. Just touch, touch, touch. And some guys, you know, they're more or less. But men, they want their soulmates to be touching them, and they want it to be initiated by her touch, touch, touch, touch, touch. And a lot of women are like, yeah, she just wants sex all the time.

[A]

But if they don't, that's the thing.

[C]

I mean, of course they do, but that's not the same thing.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

Okay. That's actually not part of it. Sex is not one of the four steps, believe it or not.

[B]

So we got eye contact.

[C]

Eye contact, and abt. Okay, number three is fun. Now, when you're going for couples therapy, one of the problems with couples therapy is that you rehearse grievance. That's what you're talking about. It's like. And so if you have a glass of water, which is your marriage, and then you have got a teaspoonful of dirt, which is your problems when you go to the therapist, like. And then it's like you're not getting the dirt out of there when it's actually all stirred up in there again and again and again and again and again. Fun is like pouring a pitcher of water on top of that glass. And the first thing that's actually going to come out. The physics of this is really interesting. The dirt will come out and you'll have clean water. Fun is way, way, way more important than a lot of grievances. So there's grievances when you're first together, but you're still in love. But it's like the tide is in and you can't see all the junk on the beach, and then the tide goes out, and then all you can see is the junk on the beach bring the tide back in. And the way that you do that is by doing things that you both really enjoy that elicit a lot of positive affect, a lot of interest, and a lot of joy and a lot of surprise, as opposed to focusing on fear, anger, disgust, and sadness and those little irritations. So you gotta fix problems, but more important, you gotta have more fun, more positive, as opposed to simply getting rid of the negative.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Last but not least is praying together. This is the most intimate thing that couples can do, and they usually don't. I know couples, old Catholic couples have been together for 50 years, and they don't pray in front of each other because it's too intimate. It's, like, too embarrassing. It's like, you guys are, like 19 kids. You've done lots of intimate things, Right? But you don't pray. You don't talk to the Lord together. What's the dealio? And the answer is, because it's like looking into the sun, you know, it's just so intimate to talk about, to talk to the Lord together. And that's really the essence of what it means to have three, to be married, you know? And the most intimate marriages are those which the couples, they see their marriage as an antenna to God. And that's what they realize when couples start praying together. And again, secular people are watching us, too. And there's data that show that meditation or even reading to each other does a lot of this.

[A]

But something higher than you, something higher

[C]

than you that you're connecting to. And what you realize is that when you don't love your wife, you're denying her God's love. Because your love is a channel through which God expresses his love to her. And that's why you're married. That's what it means to be three, to get married. That's just a. It's a. It's a Rubicon that you cross in your marriage. And when you can actually say to each other, you're not number one, you're not number one. The reason I can still love you and the reason I love you so much is because you're not number one. Because God's number one. And you're not going to find that when you're not praying together. You're not going to find that when you're not. The two keys that turn on the antenna to the divine. That's a real game changer.

[B]

So I'm writing this down. I got to stare into her eyes, hold her hands while praying to her,

[C]

and then give, honey, stare into her eyes. She has to hold your hand.

[B]

Okay, got it.

[C]

More fun together. And say your prayers together tonight.

[B]

That's impressive. And it's simple. Those are simple things. I thought you were gonna give us some real hard homework here.

[C]

No, no, but simple but not easy. Yeah, because of the thing. It's real easy to neglect these things. It's like, ah, we're watching TV and we're a little too tired. And, you know, there's all kinds of adjectives to this, too. I mean, it's like, read or love poetry tonight in bed while you're holding hands before you go to sleep and staring at you.

[B]

I don't know if I can Google that on a work computer. Love poetry to read at bedtime.

[C]

Yeah, I know. And by the way, don't look at the screen while you're doing it.

[B]

That's the problem, too. To print it out. Old School. I love it. That's good.

[A]

So good. All right, I know you're loving our conversation with Arthur. So are we. And we're about to get back to it. But first, we want to talk about partnering with a bank that is actually for you. And that is where Fairwinds Credit Union comes in.

[B]

Yeah. We always talk about giving every dollar a job. And Fairwinds makes it easy, especially on the saving side. We talk about sinking funds and saving up for the vacation or the car or the maintenance for the house. And you can do all of that with Fairwinds by making up to 10 savings accounts all within the same portal?

[A]

Yes, right there. And you guys, their online portal, like the. The experience with their online baking, is unmatched. It is incredible. And their customer service is even better. If you have any questions or concerns, you can call them because they are right there, just a phone call away if you need them. And the fact that they have the heart to support you financially, meaning that they are cheering you on. They are for you. Where a lot of banks are literally just selling you tons of products for them to make more money off of you. But Fairwinds is different. They are for you. So open up your Smart bundle today because you will get a checking account with the Fairwinds debt as normal Beweir debit card, which we love.

[B]

So good.

[A]

So good. And then of course, your high yield savings account and then other accounts that you can add, just like you were saying, up to 10 accounts you can have with them.

[B]

It's super simple. And again, the customer service is unmatched. They called me after I made an account. I was confused. I was like, is there fraud in my account? They're like, no, just checking in. I was like, oh, my gosh, yes.

[A]

There's.

[B]

This is the friend I didn't know I needed. So go check it out. Get that smart bundle for free. Go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey to sign up today or click the link in the description. All right, back to our conversation.

[A]

Okay, question number two. What's one thing in culture that we should be talking about and paying more attention to in 2026?

[C]

Yeah, it's the meaning of life. And that's really what I've been wr writing about for the past five years. So the big book that I've got coming out in March is called the Meaning of youf Life. Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. And that's a big change. You know, if this were 25 years ago, I wouldn't be writing a book about the Meaning of life. Because there wasn't a change in the perception of life's meaning. But suddenly, Quite suddenly, after 2008, there was an explosion of this crisis of meaninglessness. So people ask all the time what lies behind the increases in depression and anxiety and loneliness and self harm and addiction? For people under 35, the number one predictor is saying that my life feels meaningless. And the reason for this, by the way, is because increasingly we're all living in a simulation. It's not real life. I mean, look, if you roll out of bed and the first thing you do is you look at your phone, that's a simulation for actual contact with human beings. And then you go to work on Zoom and your friends are on Instagram and you're dating on an app and your sense of achievement is coming through gaming. You're living in the Matrix, man.

[A]

So interesting.

[C]

Yeah. And there's one thing you can't simulate, which is the meaning of your. This book talks an awful lot about how we use our brains wrong. Meaning is ascertained in the right hemisphere of the brain. Technology and analytics and the grind of work and the modern, and most of modern life is on the left side of the brain. And if you're spending your whole life, hours and hours a day on the left side of your brain, you literally are in the wrong part of your brain to even ask the questions of meaning.

[A]

And so that creates the anxiety, depression,

[C]

all of that creates meaninglessness.

[A]

We're the right side. What helps heal that?

[C]

Exactly right. So this book is a six part plan. Six months to find the meaning of your life. And it talks. It starts by getting clean, by detoxing from the technological addictions that are afflicting us and then actually living in a kind of a new, old fashioned way, looking at the parts of life that will illuminate the right side of your brain. That's the big question people should be asking.

[B]

I've seen a lot of, I'm going to call it financial nihilism of just, there's no point, the rich people bought Park Place, we lost the Monopoly game, let's just flip the board. There's a lot of that happening, a lot of cynicism toward the financial world. You know, people are going, I'll never get ahead, I'll never own a house, you'll never own anything.

[C]

Let's go be socialist now or something.

[B]

So, yeah, how do you approach that person? If you're talking to me, I'm that 24 year old who thinks that way. How do you get out of that?

[C]

Yeah. Well, part of the reason is because we have a. It's like, it's funny. You know, economists always talk about the consumer price index. Right. And the problem with the consumer price index, it's the way that they calculate it. It's a bundle of goods that people actually used in the old days. Yes, Right. And so how much for a toaster or something? And some of the stuff is relevant, I guess. Toasters are relevant and TVs are relevant.

[B]

How often are people buying toasters?

[C]

Not that often because they're like cheap and reliable is the whole point. The problem with the CPI is it's not great for measuring inflation because it's an old basket of goods. And the truth is that the way that we understand our own prosperity is by looking at an old basket of goods. And you say, okay, how do I know I'm prosperous? I can buy the same stuff that my parents did and more. Well, the truth is that things change in life. And I get it. I mean, it's like it's great to be able to buy a house, I suppose, but that's not a deal breaker. It isn't a deal breaker. Plus, if your parents actually got a big run up in their house value and they were wealthier as a result of that, you were probably brought up under circumstances where you think being poor actually isn't poor at all. And so you hold yourself to ridiculous standards under the circumstances. We need to update our understanding what a prosperous life is all about. What a successful life is actually all about. Young people today have way more freedom. Freedom of movement, freedom of choice, freedom of all kinds of things that their parents didn't have, as a matter of fact. And that's a form of wealth. That's a way that they're actually richer than their parents are. They need to update their views on what it means to be a person who's fully alive and really prosperous, as opposed to I can't buy the house I grew up in. Okay, well, that's an element, that's an artifact of the fact that, that cultures and economies change.

[B]

So how. What is the healthier scoreboard for people versus just money? Or how are my parents doing? Or the guy on Instagram?

[C]

And to be sure, some people are not going to be as wealthy as their parents, but other people are going to be wealthier than their parents and be unable to do all kinds of things their parents couldn't do, like go see things, like going to Bali. Your parents didn't go to Bali. And you're going to Be able to go to Bali, right? And your parents are like kids these days. They're so lucky. And you're like, like parents these days. They owned a house. I mean, everybody's resentful of everybody else is the way to think about it. The way to think about this is to set appropriate goals for the person that you actually want to be. You know, to think about yourself in five years. And I have this exercise I have with my students. So my students are MBA students at Harvard. They're going to do super well. The average salary coming out of MBA program at Harvard I think is $210,000 a year. It's good money, not too shabby. And it's going to go up and it's not like $210,000 a year and going down. No, I mean, that's the base. That's the base. And then it goes up from there. And that has all kinds of good things about it, but all sorts of bad things. Because they can become success addicted and workaholic and all sorts of things. That's what I work on with them. But I say, look, if you want to be a really successful person, think about yourself five years from now and imagine yourself with 25% higher level of well being. And you know what that feels like. You know what that means? Okay, we don't have to get into the numbers. You're significantly happier. Put in order 1, 2 and 3. The changes from now that are responsible for that increase in your wellbeing. Every single one of them talks about family is number one. And they all say the same thing. I want to be married and have kids. I want to be married and have kids. Okay, what's number two? A lot of them say, I really want to have my faith and spiritual life worked out. I want to have a philosophy of life that really makes sense to me. I want to reconnect with my faith. I want to find faith for the first time. A lot of them put that as number two. And their career is always number three. And I'm like, okay, what are you spending all your time on? They're like, number three. Aha. Be more businesslike about number one and two. Start actually working on number one and two. And then we'll put together protocols so that number one actually can be number one. And real science based protocols for number two as well. And that's what my class. I teach a class called Leadership and Happiness, which is about how to treat your life like an enterprise and not just your business. That's how to be prosperous Are those

[B]

the main areas you should focus on outside of just, you know, money goals? Yeah, you got family, family, faith, obviously your career, friendship. That has meaning as well.

[C]

And friendship, faith, family, friendship and work are the four big pillars of the happiest life. Those are the practices. And the reason is because those are the things that prop up what happiness is. Macronutrients. Happiness is kind of like food. It has macronutrients and micronutrients. The macronutrients are enjoyment, satisfaction and meaning. Those are the things to be paying attention to. And the micronutrients are all kinds of things like your family life and your marriage and your financial health and all these kinds of things that actually feed into it. And you have to be paying attention to both just like you do with your own health. Am I getting, you know, enough D3 with K2 in my diet, but at the same time am I getting enough protein and micro, macro, etc. Etc. And that's what I'm kind of working with, you know?

[B]

You know, George, you lost me.

[A]

Macros and mic 2.

[B]

No, I get my protein.

[A]

Okay. I haven't been in College. It's been 15 years. But do they still sign up online for their classes?

[C]

I don't know. I'm not.

[A]

I imagine because this is what I went through last week to get my girls in this one camp that I'm obsessed with here locally. And it's so hard to get into because it's really small. So you gotta be up at 6:30 and you gotta be refreshing your browser. I had my computer and my phone to do both to get them both signed up. And I only got one signed up because it filled up so fast. Is that how your classes are? They like sitting there waiting for registration. Me and Arthur, they're like, get in Dr. Brooks's class.

[C]

I usually have about 400 in the waiting list for the happiness class.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[C]

Two sections of 90.

[A]

You all get this for free? This content for free?

[C]

Yeah, no, it's, it's. And my students are awesome and so I have a lot of visitors. So I take visit a reservation system

[B]

for visitors so I can like audit your class.

[C]

Well, I. They have to be related to my students.

[A]

You have to be an enrolled student.

[C]

At one point there was an illegal zoom link they thought I was not aware of. And it was the COVID link.

[A]

Oh no.

[C]

For the kids on Covid, you're not supposed to come to class when you got Covid for the obvious reason. Reasons.

[A]

So people were giving out the Link.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, there's like 135 people on the COVID link. I'm like that. Those are friends, those people in Europe. You know, what's kind of what's going on with the COVID link.

[B]

Just give them black markets. They want it that bad, let them have.

[C]

That's why I'm here. My real apostolate is public education for this stuff.

[A]

So our conversation with Arthur Brooks, it just makes me feel so good. I just. I love him. And what also makes me feel good, George, is, is all the luxurious products of Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth has everything from bedding to loungewear. I mean, it is unmatched what they have because their quality of products as well is just. It's unbelievable.

[B]

I can't help stock up. Cause I realized once I ran out of my Cozy Earth socks, I was like, now I have to go back to my peasant socks. I want my Cozy Earth socks. So now I need one for every day of the week. Their men's everywhere pant is fantastic. The sleep sets for the ladies. I've got the clogs. I was Cozy Earthed out this weekend and I looked down and didn't even realize it.

[A]

And you had all Cozy Earth on.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm telling you, it is so good. In fact, I had to give a gift recently. Where did I go? Cozyearth.com because I thought I'm gonna bless these people with the amazing products that I love from Cozy Earth. So make sure to check it out again. It is quality products. Everything from their bedding to their clothes, all of it is fantastic. So go to cozyearth.com smartmoney get 20% off and use code smart money in checkout. And enjoy the great discount too, because you are not going to regret anything you buy from Cozy Earth.

[B]

The only thing I love more than luxurious goods is a discount on luxurious goods.

[A]

That's it. It's even better. Even better. All right, back to our conversation with Arthur. All right, this question was interesting. How do I relate to or show interest in others if I'm extremely shy? Personality question.

[C]

Yeah, no, I. That and I do a lot of work on the personality correlates of happiness. So personality, human personality. There's been a lot of work on this. So introversion, extroversion, actually, that was a concept that was introduced largely by Carl Jung, you know, the great Swiss psychiatrist and colleague and disciple of Sigmund Freud. But much better, much greater, much greater. Because today we still study a lot of Jung.

[B]

It's not called the Jung Slip. It's called the Freudian slip.

[C]

I know, the Jungian slip. We got some other good Jungian stuff out there. But the whole concept of extroversion is Jungian, actually. This was then accompanied by four other personality characteristics. So the five elements of personality and the way that you can remember this is with the acronym ocean Openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. So Those are the five elements, and they're. They're. All of them are between 40 and 80% genetic, which means there's no way. Yeah, yeah. Between 40 and 80% genetic, meaning that they're only between 2 and 60% environmental. And. And there's disagreement in the literature about how much it is, but everybody knows it's super genetic. So if you have two introverted parents, the likelihood is you're gonna be introverted is the way that it actually works.

[A]

We have friends like that. You can tell a family, crazy, chaotic family, because the parents are just wild. And it's just like it is. And then you go to a home and everything's silent. And they're very like, calm people.

[C]

And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So in. In my family of five, two of our. So me and my wife, actually, now it's a family of 11 because two of my kids are married and. And the two married kids have two kids each. And so in three and a half years, we went from five to 11. Wow. It's like a population explosion. Oh, it's the best. And we live together in the same house, two of the families, actually, which is really good. So we have two biological sons and one adopted daughter. So that's how it's set up. And in a way, my adopted daughter, she's 22 now. She's a chip off the old block. She studied neuroscience and psychology in college. She's phenomenal. She's the second lieutenant in the Marine Corps now. She's. She's awesome, but she's an introvert, and she's the only introvert. So it's like four dogs and a cat growing up. And so this is an interesting thing. And so for her, it was always this question. The question that you're asking is, how do you connect to people? And one of the reasons she studied psychology was to really understand this question. And because that's what she and I talk about all day long, is the behavioral science behind these types of things. And the answer is that it's not as natural or easy, but metacognitively you can actually do this. In other words, don't let your limbic system, your emotional console manage you understand the emotions that you're actually having that are driving you toward a particular type of behavior and then decide how you want to react. And that's really important to be metacognitive about it now to be sure to connect other people with introverts. They're going to do so on a smaller scale, but on a deeper scale. Introverts, they tend to have fewer friends but better friendships. Extroverts are always looking for fresh meat. And it's like, who's new and exciting? Who's new?

[B]

It's like an mlm, just like, let's add them to the pipeline.

[C]

No, I'm like at the 96th percentile in extroversion. And you know, it's unbearable. This is not a flex. But what I've found is that my daughter will have a few friends that she really cares about. She really cares about deeply but metacognitively. She's had to get out of her comfort zone because she's commanding marines. And so what she has to do is she's taking care of people and people's lives in her hands. And so the result of it is that she has learned how to be a successful, happy introvert and when she needs to, how to act like an extrovert when she has to have that strength.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

So do you find that extroverts are happier in general versus introverts having a harder time?

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna ask the ocean, is it the more open you are, the more conscious, like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that mean you have a. Yeah.

[C]

Happier life? Yeah, for sure. So happiness is the way that it's, it's. So happiness is positively correlated with openness, positively with conscientiousness, with extroversion, with agreeableness and negatively correlated with neuroticism.

[B]

I was going to ask. I got a lot of neuroticism and I was like, I guess I'm super happy. This is great. And you just.

[C]

No, no, sorry. So it's like and, and when neuroticism is. I mean that's just an old idea. A neurotic, according to Fred, is what we would call today somebody who's got a non trivial amount of depression, anxiety. And so somebody who's really, really neurotic would have clinical depression and generalized anxiety is kind of how that works. And if not. Or you could actually be somebody who bounces around a lot, which is clinically, that would be bipolar disorder or subclinically it's called hypomania. A lot of really successful people, most successful people are hypomanic.

[B]

See, Rachel.

[C]

Yeah,

[A]

George, that's. George, that's good.

[B]

That's.

[C]

So you can be really successful and not as happy because you're highly hepomanic.

[B]

Is there a lot of. Just like you're in your head overthinking, you know?

[C]

Well, that's. That's a. That's a classic. So being in your head and overthinking is called rumination. Rumination is. It comes from the Latin ruminare, which means to chew the cud. That's a rumination. And so what's actually happening in the brain is that rumination. Most neuroscientists believe it's an activation of a thing in your little organ in your brain suborgan called the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex as part of your limbic system. It's your onboard hardware for ruminating regret. Regret. I'm so stupid. I can't believe I said that. But the reason for that, the reason that that has actually been evolved is so you can learn, so you can ruminate on something because you're figuring it out. The reason that people are probably the best explanation for why people are still depressed, it seemed like that would be, like, weeded out over the last 250,000 years of sexual selection or something like that, is because the brain is like something bad happened. You need to figure it out. And the way you're gonna figure it out is by doing the work. And the way you do the work is by activating the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex to make it so you can't stop thinking about it. Now, this can really obstruct your quality of life, which means that there's certain things that we can do that will lower the activity in the ventralateral prefrontal cortex. Like keeping more serotonin in the synapse with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, AKA Prozac. So one of the things that it does is it lowers the levels of rumination. But here's the interesting thing. Rumination is also what we do when we're being doing something super creative, like creating a business plan or writing a book.

[A]

So it takes that down.

[C]

It's also what you're doing when you're falling in love. So the third neurochemical step in falling in love is this big dip in serotonin. And that's when you're ruminating on the other person, like can't stop thinking about her. Can't stop thinking about her. She sent me a text, but I don't know if the wording was just right. And I don't know. And I'm feeling so insecure, and so I act. What an idiot. I just sent 10 voicemails. I'm seeing something so needy. And that's the reason you're bonding to the other person by ruminating on the other person. Which is why people who are depressive, melancholic, they also tend to be creative and romantic.

[A]

Yes, it is. It's like the Enneagram Fours that just, like, live in their life.

[C]

That's why. And it's also why some people report, and this is contested, that when they're taking serotonin drugs that will keep more serotonin in the synapse, that they feel less. They're less ruminative in their sadness, but they feel less creative and they feel less romantic. Love.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

She's got a master class.

[C]

Yeah. And that doesn't mean, by the way, take your meds, folks. Take your meds. I'm not saying that if you want to fall in love, you got to go off your meds. It just means you got to know what's going on and understand why this is happening, why you're feeling the way that you do.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Some of these episodes I'm going to replay myself.

[B]

Yeah, I was surprised you weren't writing that down.

[A]

Take notes. Take notes. It's so good.

[C]

Are you a melancholic Rachel?

[A]

No.

[C]

No. You're not melancholic.

[A]

I'm pretty happy.

[B]

She avoids.

[C]

No, no. But that doesn't mean you're not happy.

[A]

I avoid sadness.

[B]

I would guess the sadness avoider.

[C]

I have a test on my. I have a test on my website called the happiness scale that everybody can take. And one of the things that will show you is your affect profile to see the intensity of your positive and negative emotionality.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And a quarter of the population is above average in positive emotion, but also above average in negative emotion. That's called the mad scientist profile.

[B]

It extremes on both sides.

[C]

I would bet that's you. I would bet that you feel things really deeply. My guess is that you feel.

[A]

If I let myself, but you feel

[C]

intense happiness and intense sadness is my guess.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So that would be the mad scientist. And by the way, most successful entrepreneurs and CEOs are mad scientists.

[B]

Point for Rachel.

[C]

Which one are you? So there's. There's three others. One is the cheerleader, which is intense happiness and low intensity negativity. One is the judge, which is a low affect person. Sober, unflappable. That's low intensity, positive.

[B]

I think I'm pretty flappable. Easily flapped.

[C]

You got some flaps over there.

[B]

Yeah. Irritable.

[C]

And last but not least is the poet. Poet, which is the person who's real melancholic. High negative intensity, but low positive intensity.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

These tend to be the most creative people.

[A]

What are you?

[B]

I guess I'm probably more mad scientists. Out of all of us.

[C]

I bet you are, too. I bet that, you know, professional radio show hosts tend to be mad scientists because you got to be into it, man. You got to be into it. Yeah. You got to react emotionally, because if you don't, you're a psychopath. Well, not only well, I mean, actually, if you can turn it on like a switch and look into a camera like I'm doing right now. Pretending you're talking to an actual person. Believe it or not, the ability to communicate with an inanimate object is a characteristic of sociopathy.

[A]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

There you go, guys. I'm learning a lot about myself. Didn't expect to be psychoanalyzed on smart money. Happy. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Okay, before we spill the tea on our guiltiest charge segments, we are gonna rate our drink. George and Arthur, what do you give it?

[C]

I give this a solid seven and a half. I like it a lot.

[B]

Nice. Okay, this is the electrolyte mocktail. Arthur's I think, is San orange juice. Is that correct? Let me tell you what's in it, Rachel, because you're probably wondering. It's got coconut water, fresh orange juice, lime juice, agave, and a pinch of salt. It's always gotta be a pinch.

[A]

I'm going nine. I. I love a salt. I love a salt. Rum. Yeah. For a mocktail, this is really nice.

[B]

I want to be in like.

[A]

And the fact that Mykonos right now and the fact that it has electrolytes in it.

[B]

Yeah, it's healthy. I would prefer to spike it, but, you know, it's early in the day,

[C]

so I'm going here. I don't know.

[B]

9 out of 10 on a mocktail is pretty good for me.

[A]

Yes. Mocktails are nine.

[B]

Okay. We have extremes in the mocktails. It's either a negative four.

[A]

It's usually pretty good, or they're just.

[C]

They're awful. Horrible. Do you like the bitter mocktails?

[B]

I like it, yeah.

[A]

He likes a bitter. I don't like a bitter, and I don't like a Ginger. Don't give me a ginger beer.

[C]

You don't like it? It burns you.

[A]

Yeah, I don't like it.

[B]

Yeah, feel the burn.

[A]

Not good.

[B]

The cost is $1.85 per drink. If you want to make this at home. Not bad. The recipe's in the show notes, so click there and give it a try. This weekend, the kids are invited on this one.

[A]

Yes, the kids can drink it. They can drink it. All right, now it's time for guilty as charged. This is where we ask each other a guilty as charged question every week. And if we're guilty, we take a sip.

[B]

All right, you're gonna be a part of this, Arthur.

[A]

Okay, Arthur and George, you ready?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Have you ever hopped on a trendy bandwagon and then totally bailed with. That's a. A bandwagon you've jumped on? And then you said, never mind.

[B]

I did. Well, I tried a new thing, and it didn't work for me. And so I got these ads because I like Huberman. I, you know, watch a lot of his content. And I got this ad from AG1 for their new sleep powder called AGZ.

[A]

AGZ.

[B]

And I tried it out. I was like, I'm gonna get on this band. Huberman's pushing it. It's gotta be amazing. And so I tried. It did not work for me.

[A]

And then I. George is a terrible

[B]

student, but here's what happened. He's not a good student. The next box box showed up because it's a subscription, and I didn't know how to cancel it.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

So it charged me, like, $90 for it. No, I got the box. So I got the product to go with it, but. And I'll keep sticking with it.

[C]

What's the ingredient list?

[B]

It's long, it's lengthy, a lot of trademark proprietary ingredients.

[C]

Proprietary ingredients?

[B]

Yeah, but it seems to help seem like clean ingredients. Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Melatonin, theanine, ashwagandha. I don't know what else. You can look at the ingredient list and tell me.

[C]

Yeah, I would look at the ingredient list. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

But it didn't work for you.

[C]

The key one for you is going to be magnesium glycerin glycinate, which I take every night. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Shout out to magnesium glycinate. Not a lot of love for that on the show.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Okay, so that's mine. I hopped on the bandwagon. No, no shade to Huberman.

[A]

It's a great product, too. I. I was on the cold plunge bandwagon for about seven months consistently. I mean, I. And I hate being cold. And I think I did it more as a challenge to myself just to be like, I can do this. But we bought a whole one. I mean, the whole thing, y'. All. And I just, just. I'm done. Actually, I read something that for women, it ages you faster.

[C]

Well, because it spikes your cortisol and that's not what you want.

[A]

Yeah, no, I don't. Don't lower my.

[B]

What's your take on the cold plunges? Are we out?

[C]

I think that the science isn't there. I think the science isn't there to support it. I think saunas are absolutely, absolutely beneficial.

[A]

Tell me this. Okay, I do. We got an infrared sauna. And I. And my husband, I will give him credit, he doesn't spend a lot of money, but when he buys something, he buys, like the nice thing.

[C]

Thing, right?

[A]

Like, so he bought an infrared. Like a light sunlightened infrared sauna. And I was like, oh, that's a lot. You know, whatever. But he did it probably two years ago. And I. And I use it. I use it this probably 5 times a week for 25ish minutes.

[C]

Fantastic.

[A]

And I have, knock on wood, I don't get sick anymore. Like, I've not been sick in a. In a while. Is that related?

[C]

Probably. It's probably related because the infrared.

[A]

Right. That it, like your body mimics.

[C]

Probably related. And that the research actually isn't there on that. But a lot of people report that, but many, many other benefits. It's super well studied. Song is great for you.

[B]

All right, it's your turn. Arthur.

[C]

Yeah. What about.

[B]

What's your bandwagon that you regret?

[C]

You know, I can think back to all kinds of bandwagons over the years, I have to say. But I remember, you know, being a musician, there were a lot of musical bandwagons that I would actually try to get on over the years.

[A]

Oh, like the type of music or something?

[C]

Yeah, the type of music. And it would. It would actually never stick. But I. I can actually look back on, you know, the. On the music collection I would have in the past, and it would be, you know, really, actually mortifying. And especially because I started, like, the people that were making that particular music. So if you look back in those particular years, it looks like I'm. Who's the French horn player who thinks he's in Duran Duran or something like that? And that's what I'm, you know.

[B]

Would you call Indonesian dance a bandwagon?

[C]

Not so much. Well, I Mean it. It certainly was a fad that was flying around that the hippie community that I was trying to study in, it didn't last in.

[A]

In his.

[C]

I'm not still doing it.

[A]

Bring it back in his groups.

[B]

Yes, you can start a bandwagon.

[C]

I didn't have a good bandwagon, but I try not to actually fall into a lot of the health bandwagon stuff, because what I. The first thing it'll actually do is do the research.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, we need to. Any. Any new thing. I'm going to just text our.

[C]

Just text me and I'll say, I'll look it up. On. Should have done that about ColdPlunch Consensus AI, which is every researcher's research assistant using. This is what we all use AI. We all use.

[B]

Oh, see, that's what I thought. I think doctors now are just using AI. And I'm like, well, I can do

[C]

this at home now. For academic researchers, it's amazing.

[A]

You get all of it if you

[B]

know what you're doing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, you guys. Well, if you have a guilty charge question for us, make sure to DM us at Rachel Cruz or at George Camel. We get them. We appreciate them. Thank you. Thank you. Ours Earth. It's been so fun.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Very excited about your new book, the meaning of your life. You guys can check it out. The meaning of your life.com part for you March 31st.

[C]

March for the 1st on the 27th.

[A]

So depending on when you're watching this

[C]

or listening to this, we'll be having a big virtual event, worldwide virtual event with a whole bunch of cool people. Oprah's part of it. And Hoda Kotb is gonna be there with me and Maria Shriver and Dan Buettner and Rain Wilson. Rainn Wilson will be with me. I pal around with Rain Wilson a lot.

[B]

Oh, Dwight.

[C]

And it's fantastic. And then we'll have podcasts. Yeah, it's great. And we'll have, you know, a few hundred thousand of our closest friends talking about the meaning of life.

[B]

And it's free.

[C]

Completely free.

[B]

I like free.

[C]

I'll be there Friday, March 27th.

[A]

Okay, guys, make sure to check out. And everything that Arthur's doing is. It's just as you. As you know, if you've stayed this

[B]

long, if you don't love him at this point, what are you doing here?

[A]

It's incredible. Absolutely incredible. Yep. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out our episode questioning life choices with Ken Coleman. That is coming up next. Make sure to like and subscribe. And we'll see you guys next Thursday on an all new episode of Smart Money Happy Hour.

[C]

Cheers, Arthur. Cheers.

[A]

Cheers.