What It REALLY Means to Be Ramsey-ish

Summary

Smart Money Happy Hour with Rachel Cruze and George Kamel Episode Summary: "What It REALLY Means to Be Ramsey-ish" Release Date: March 6, 2025

Pull up a chair to the happy hour you wish your friends were having. Mix two money experts with some hot takes and a splash of nostalgia, and you get Rachel Cruze and George Kamel talking unfiltered about what’s going on in the world, pop culture, and how to afford a life you love.

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Introduction

In the episode titled "What It REALLY Means to Be Ramsey-ish," Rachel Cruze and George Kamel delve deep into the nuances of following Dave Ramsey's financial principles. They unpack common misconceptions, discuss practical applications, and address real-life challenges listeners face when adhering to Ramsey's advice. Throughout the conversation, the duo balances financial wisdom with relatable anecdotes, making complex topics accessible and engaging.

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Defining "Ramsey-ish"

Setting the Record Straight

[00:05] George Kamel: "We are setting the record straight on what it means to be Ramsey-ish."

Rachel and George kick off the discussion by exploring what it truly means to embody Ramsey's financial philosophy. They highlight that being "Ramsey-ish" often involves partially following Ramsey's steps while incorporating personal adjustments. This blend can sometimes lead to confusion and inconsistent financial progress.

[02:08] Rachel Cruze: "That's stuff I don't. Yeah. But a couple of things here and there. It's like, yeah, we're just gonna kind of change it up."

They compare being Ramsey-ish to a buffet approach—taking what resonates and leaving the rest. However, they caution that significant deviations, especially in major financial decisions, can undermine the effectiveness of Ramsey's strategies.

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Debt Repayment Strategies: Snowball vs. Avalanche

The Great Debate

A substantial portion of the episode centers on debt repayment methods. Rachel expresses skepticism towards the debt snowball method, preferring the debt avalanche approach, which prioritizes paying off debts with the highest interest rates first.

[04:40] Rachel Cruze: "I can't get on board with the debt snowball. Highest interest rate first all the way."

George counters by explaining why Dave Ramsey advocates for the debt snowball method despite the mathematical advantage of the avalanche method.

[04:45] George Kamel: "Math would say, well, the highest interest rate, you want to knock that out faster because it's costing you the most. Depending on the situation, which mathematically is correct."

However, he emphasizes that the debt snowball method tends to generate more psychological momentum, increasing the likelihood of debt elimination.

[05:16] Rachel Cruze: "Because it's less. I mean, a lot of this personal finance stuff, it's less knowing what to do in the math and trying to finagle, like, formulas around it. It's actually just doing it."

[05:27] George Kamel: "Then you get the momentum, the progress, the psychological win. We found that's what actually causes people to become debt free."

They conclude that while both methods may yield similar financial outcomes, the debt snowball's emphasis on quick wins makes it more effective for behavioral change.

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The Credit Card Conundrum

Balancing Convenience and Control

Rachel and George address the use of credit cards within Ramsey's framework, discussing the tension between convenience and financial discipline.

[05:58] George Kamel: "What's so bad about having a credit card? If I pay it off every month, I follow all the other rules."

[06:04] Rachel Cruze: "Oh, yeah. This is a very Ramsey-ish thing. The credit card, I think, is one of the hardest hurdles things to break in people's financial life for them to do something so different because you're Just so used to it, having a credit card."

They highlight that even responsible usage can lead to overspending due to the psychological distance credit cards create between the purchase and the payment.

[06:42] George Kamel: "Why not get the points if I'm gonna spend it anyways?"

[07:24] Rachel Cruze: "She had to cut up the credit card to see a decrease in spending, realizing that using others' money leads to more expenses."

Rachel shares a listener's experience where eliminating credit card use resulted in lower expenditures, reinforcing the idea that credit cards can inadvertently encourage higher spending.

[07:42] George Kamel: "If you're thinking, I'm gonna spend 12% more, that's like saying I get 12% cash back on my debit card. That's effectively what you're saving by not using a credit card."

They recommend experimenting with a credit card-free period to gauge its impact on personal spending habits.

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Balancing Emergency Funds and Debt Repayment

Prioritizing Financial Security

The conversation shifts to the tension between building an emergency fund and aggressively paying down debt.

[07:53] Rachel Cruze: "I know I need to get out of debt, but I'm scared to take my savings all the way down to $1,000. Can I just leave a little extra in my starter emergency fund?"

George explains Ramsey's first baby step: saving a $1,000 starter emergency fund before tackling debt.

[07:54] George Kamel: "Baby step one in the Ramsey plan is save $1,000."

[08:26] Rachel Cruze: "Yes. And it's really interesting when you think about it, because people want to keep money in savings. Cause they feel like, okay, there's like safety there..."

They address fears that even a modest emergency fund might be insufficient in today's economic climate but argue that an excessive focus on savings can impede debt repayment and overall financial progress.

[09:02] George Kamel: "That's my favorite part is people don't think about the psychological fuel you gain from a thousand bucks."

[09:21] Rachel Cruze: "That's right. And if you can't have the money to pay it, then it's gonna go into collections. You're gonna get late fees, like, do you know what I mean?"

[09:36] George Kamel: "Then you can work on your fully funded emergency fund."

They advocate for prioritizing debt reduction to minimize financial risk, allowing for a more robust emergency fund afterward.

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Investments and Pausing Investments During Debt Repayment

Strategic Financial Planning

Rachel raises concerns about pausing investments, questioning if it's wise to delay investing, especially when considering employer matches.

[10:11] George Kamel: "We say, hey, if you're getting out of debt, pause investing. Focus all of your efforts, every spare dollar you can throw at your debt."

George clarifies that pausing investments, particularly non-essential ones, can accelerate debt repayment, ultimately freeing up more funds for investing in the future.

[11:39] George Kamel: "Most people are not investing 15% into retirement. Instead, they're putting everything they have into crypto because they have all this FOMO."

[12:07] George Kamel: "How about pausing it? Focus on your debt first."

They emphasize that once debt is cleared, dedicating a portion of income to investing becomes more feasible and beneficial.

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Managing Higher Education Debt: Student Loans

Navigating Costly Education

George introduces the topic of student loans, particularly for high-cost professions like medicine and law.

[13:00] George Kamel: "I want to be a doctor, but I can't cash flow an eight-year long medical education. Is it always bad to take out student loans and pay them off later when I know I'm going to make really good money?"

Rachel offers a nuanced perspective, acknowledging that while student loans are often unavoidable, there are creative strategies and programs to mitigate debt burdens.

[13:33] Rachel Cruze: "There are programs out there that you can actually apply for... It's interesting because throughout the years it doesn't happen often. Usually we get the call of like $250,000 to be a dentist and like, we gotta pay it off."

They discuss potential pathways, such as working in certain sectors that offer loan forgiveness or scholarships, encouraging listeners to explore all available options before defaulting to substantial debt.

[15:05] George Kamel: "And you could stair step it and go, all right, I'm going to become a nurse practitioner and then wait, save up, get some experience and then go for the MD."

The conversation underscores the importance of proactive financial planning in managing educational expenses.

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Generosity and Giving While in Debt

Balancing Selflessness and Financial Responsibility

Rachel addresses the dilemma of maintaining generosity, such as tithing, while struggling with debt.

[24:03] George Kamel: "Money is so tight. I cannot imagine giving up 10% of what little margin I have for tithing or generosity. Is it okay not to prioritize giving right now?"

[24:17] Rachel Cruze: "For me, I think it's one of these things we put into our lives as a rhythm that it is, like, this is just part of what we do."

They discuss the importance of integrating giving into financial plans without letting it hinder debt repayment. Rachel suggests a balanced approach where one gives what they can while focusing on eliminating debt.

[25:17] George Kamel: "Generosity is Joy—livelihood benefits from giving."

George references his book, "Breaking Free from Broke," highlighting both spiritual and scientific benefits of generosity, such as reduced stress and increased happiness.

[26:43] Rachel Cruze: "When you are giving, what you are doing is releasing a level of that control and opening your hands and just saying, yeah, this world in my life is not all about me."

The hosts affirm that generosity should remain a core component of financial well-being, even amidst debt, fostering a sense of purpose and community.

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Mortgage Choices: 15 vs. 30 Years

Evaluating Long-Term Financial Impact

The hosts tackle the topic of mortgage terms, particularly the choice between 15-year and 30-year mortgages.

[27:31] George Kamel: "Proud of owning my house at age 24, but my income isn't high enough to handle a 15-year mortgage payment. The 30-year is decent."

[28:14] George Kamel: "With a $300,000 loan, you could end up paying $430,000 in interest. So you ended up paying over double what the house is actually worth for the pleasure of the 30 year."

Rachel reinforces the financial drawbacks of longer mortgage terms, emphasizing the substantial interest costs over time.

[28:57] Rachel Cruze: "Yeah, I agree with that. And again, I think there's things... It's not a sin."

They discuss the psychological aspects of mortgage decisions, noting that longer terms might offer temporary relief but lead to greater financial strain in the long run.

[30:09] Rachel Cruze: "You'll think, well, I'm not looking great. And your trainer is like, well, I'm sorry."

[30:13] George Kamel: "Just don't complain to me when it doesn't go your way and you're not making the progress you want to make."

The takeaway is clear: shorter mortgage terms, while demanding, lead to greater financial freedom and reduced interest payments, aligning with Ramsey's emphasis on rapid debt elimination.

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Internet Safety and Financial Security

Protecting Your Financial Information

Rachel introduces the topic of online data privacy, advocating for the use of services like DeleteMe to safeguard personal information.

[17:42] George Kamel: "This is a plant, Rachel. You planted this one."

[18:08] Rachel Cruze: "These companies go and get your data, and then they take it together, and then they're like, hey, company. I'll sell you George and Rachel's data for money."

They discuss the risks of data breaches and the importance of proactive measures to protect financial information from cyber threats.

[18:33] George Kamel: "They're already super affordable. Go to joindeleteme.com smartmoney."

Rachel emphasizes that securing one's data is an essential aspect of overall financial health, urging listeners to take preventive steps against potential scams and identity theft.

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Conclusion: Embracing the Ramsey Plan with Flexibility

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

As the episode wraps up, Rachel and George reiterate the importance of adhering to the Ramsey plan while allowing for personal flexibility where necessary.

[30:16] George Kamel: "What if you don't follow it to a T... But we also know that if you do follow it to a T, you will find success."

[30:37] Rachel Cruze: "All of that."

They acknowledge that life circumstances may require tweaks to the plan but stress that deviating too far can hinder financial progress.

[31:13] Rachel Cruze: "You are building wealth... It just is a part of who you are."

[39:18] Rachel Cruze: "Subscribe to the channel so you don't miss an all new episode next Thursday of Smart Money Happy Hour."

The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to embrace Ramsey's principles wholeheartedly to achieve financial freedom, encouraging them to follow the structured steps for optimal results.

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Notable Quotes

• George Kamel [04:45]: "Math would say, well, the highest interest rate, you want to knock that out faster because it's costing you the most."

• Rachel Cruze [05:16]: "It's actually just doing it. And we found that doing it, you're more motivated to do it if you're getting these quick wins."

• George Kamel [07:42]: "If you're thinking, I'm gonna spend 12% more, that's like saying I get 12% cash back on my debit card."

• Rachel Cruze [25:17]: "Money is so much more than just the money. It is so much about the person."

• George Kamel [26:45]: "Generosity is Joy... it's more contagious."

• Rachel Cruze [30:37]: "We are here for you. We're not fuddy dates."

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Key Takeaways

1. Ramsey-ish Defined: Incorporating select Ramsey principles while allowing for personal financial strategies can lead to both adherence challenges and successes.

2. Debt Snowball vs. Avalanche: While the avalanche method is mathematically optimal, the snowball method fosters psychological momentum, increasing the likelihood of debt elimination.

3. Credit Card Caution: Even responsible credit card use can lead to overspending; eliminating or minimizing credit card use can enhance financial discipline.

4. Emergency Funds Priority: A modest emergency fund should precede aggressive debt repayment to balance financial security with debt elimination.

5. Investment Timing: Pausing non-essential investments during debt repayment can accelerate debt freedom, enabling more substantial investing later.

6. Student Loan Management: Exploring creative financing options and loan forgiveness programs is crucial for managing high-cost education debt.

7. Generosity Amidst Debt: Maintaining a rhythm of giving, even while repaying debt, fosters personal fulfillment and community support.

8. Mortgage Strategy: Opting for shorter mortgage terms reduces long-term interest costs and promotes quicker financial independence.

9. Data Security: Proactive measures to protect online financial information are essential components of comprehensive financial health.

10. Flexibility with Structure: Adhering to Ramsey's structured steps, while allowing for necessary personal adjustments, can optimize financial outcomes without rigidity.

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Final Thoughts

Rachel Cruze and George Kamel's candid discussion in "What It REALLY Means to Be Ramsey-ish" provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of Dave Ramsey's financial principles. By blending strict adherence with thoughtful flexibility, they offer practical guidance for those striving to achieve financial freedom. The episode serves as both an educational tool and a motivational boost, encouraging listeners to commit to smart financial practices while recognizing and addressing real-life obstacles.

Transcript

[Rachel Cruz]

Foreign.

[George Camel]

We are setting the record straight on what it means to be Ramsay ish.

[Rachel Cruz]

I can't get on board with the debt snowball. Highest interest rate first all the way.

[George Camel]

Oh, what's so bad about having a credit card? If I pay it off every month, I follow all the other rules.

[Rachel Cruz]

Hey, guys. I'm Rachel Cruz.

[George Camel]

I'm George Camel.

[Rachel Cruz]

And this is Smart Smart money happy hour. Well, this is a show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events, and money.

[George Camel]

We are setting the record straight on what it means to be Ramsay is. And I have feelings, Rachel.

[Rachel Cruz]

All right, George, before we dive into that and judge everyone, what are we. What are we sipping on?

[George Camel]

We are sipping on a cranberry fizz mocktail. That is. It's really dolled up.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

I think if you like a mocktail, this one's gonna impress. So stick around till the end. We're gonna give you our rating and reveal the cost per glass at the end of the episode.

[Rachel Cruz]

So. Great. Okay. So, George, when I say this line, what do you think of. Oh, yeah, I follow Ramsay, and I am debt free.

[George Camel]

Love it.

[Rachel Cruz]

But I do have a car loan.

[George Camel]

Okay. Very confusing. And I've heard that just too often as we take calls on the Ramsey show.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And they go, okay, so I'm out of debt. And I'm like, okay, well. And they go, well, I have a car loan. I'm like, well, did you not think that the word loan is in it? Maybe it's debt.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

So there's a lot of Ramsey ish behavior. How do you sum up what it means to be Ramsey ish? Or if you're old school, Dave ish?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, I'm going to follow the Ramsey principles and do money the way Ramsey teaches and talks about. But I'm gonna have, like, on the side, my own caveats. So, like, I'm gonna do it all, but I'm still gonna, you know, keep a credit card, or I'm gonna do it all, but I'm still gonna, like, get some crazy mortgage to make it work for me to be able to get in a house. Right. Like, I mean, like, you kind of do it all, but they think of.

[George Camel]

It like a buffet. It's like, I'm gonna take what I want.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. That's stuff I don't. Yeah. But a couple of things here and there. It's like, yeah, we're just gonna kind of change it up. If you Will and I would say Ramsay ish would be big things, not small. Small things. I don't know. Like, yeah, I feel like there's like, small things you can do that wouldn't necessarily quote, unquote be Ramsey.

[George Camel]

But it's.

[Rachel Cruz]

It is what it is. But then there's kind of the big stuff. Like debt would be one of those big ones, like that kind of thing.

[George Camel]

We'll get into it. I'm curious to see how many of our viewers and listeners would consider themselves Ramsay ish after listening to this episode. So tune along at home and see. Oh, my gosh, that's me.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, there's other areas of life that we do this right. You think about someone at like, does CrossFit, but then they smoke and drink or something and you're like, wait, what.

[George Camel]

Does it cross each other out?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. What is that?

[George Camel]

How does that work?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep.

[George Camel]

Or maybe if you're a big quote reader, but you only listen to podcasts and go on Reddit, but then you still say, hey, I was reading this article the other day. Just say, you saw a Reddit thread.

[Rachel Cruz]

Totally. Or saw an Instagram reel.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

In 30 seconds. Yeah. So there's a lot of these areas of our life, George, that people kind of like. Yeah, they like claim something, but then they kind of like, to their own devices, do their own thing.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Which is very human.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

You know, Nobody can be 100% all the time. But when we say, are you doing the Ramsey plan? There is an order to do it in. There's a way to do it that we know will cause success.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. Okay. So all of this has been drilled into me since birth, since I was in the womb.

[George Camel]

If you like, since your mutual fund parties you had as a young child.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. That's right. But for you, you kind of got on board as an adult. So what were areas of your life that you were kind of Ramsey is that you had to change.

[George Camel]

Ooh. So I started at Ramsey in 2013 as an intern. I was just a knucklehead 20 something year old with a bunch of student loan debt, some credit card debt. My most Ramsey is thing was that I bought a house before it was time in the steps.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, yeah.

[George Camel]

So then I was like, oh, gosh, there's a time and place for that baby. Step 3B to save up for a home down payment. And so if I could go back in time, I would have done it differently.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Knowing what I know now, that's good.

[Rachel Cruz]

I love it. I Love it. Well, there's a lot of different scenarios on this topic, George, that we put in that people say, well, I'm doing it, but here's my own way. And I think we should talk about.

[George Camel]

Here'S my thing that makes me unique and special. Okay, let's hear it. Rachel.

[Rachel Cruz]

George.

[George Camel]

That's how it sounds in my head, personally.

[Rachel Cruz]

Be nice.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

All right, you ready for this one? First topic. I'm so nervous I can't get on board with the debt snowball. Highest interest rate first, all the way.

[George Camel]

Oh. So this is debt avalanche method versus what we recommend, which is the debt snowball method.

[Rachel Cruz]

When you're paying off debt.

[George Camel]

So you want to focus on the smallest balance instead of the highest interest rate.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

And math would say, well, the highest interest rate, you want to knock that out faster because it's costing you the most. Depending on the situation, which mathematically is correct. Yes. If you're going to do it. Here's the funny thing. If you do both methods, it's usually about a wash. There's not a huge cost savings to doing it. The avalanche method. But what we found is if you do it the snowball method, there's a much higher chance you'll actually complete it.

[Rachel Cruz]

And get through it. Yes. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Because you're knocking out a payment faster, you're attacking the smallest balance. Free up that payment, apply it to the next smallest debt, and you get the momentum, the progress, the psychological win. We found that's what actually causes people to become debt free.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. Yeah. Because it's less. I mean, a lot of this personal finance stuff, it's less knowing what to do in the math and trying to finagle, like, formulas around it. It's actually just doing it. And we found that doing it, you're more motivated to do it if you're getting these quick wins.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Where was this inner mathematician when you went 25% APR on this credit card.

[Rachel Cruz]

Into the credit card debt? Yep, I know.

[George Camel]

So there's a time and place for math. It's not when you're trying to justify doing it a different way. It's that snowball. All the way.

[Rachel Cruz]

All the way.

[George Camel]

All right. I'm so nervous.

[Rachel Cruz]

Get nervous about this.

[George Camel]

What's so bad about having a credit card? If I pay it off every month, I follow all the other rules.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, yeah. This is a very Ramsey is thing. The credit card, I think, is one of the hardest hurdles things to break in people's financial life for them to do something so different because you're Just so used to it, having a credit card.

[George Camel]

Well, you're conditioned to think, well, I need a credit card to live my life. It's gonna be so much more difficult to live my life without a credit card.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

That's. Once I cut up my card, I was like, oh, this is not that difficult. Where are people getting this from? It's a lot of. It's just in their minds.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. And you feel like you're playing a game and winning some kind of, you know, industry standard sense that, like, oh, yeah, I'm getting the airline miles, I'm getting the cash flow.

[George Camel]

Why not get the points if I'm gonna spend it anyways?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, that's right.

[George Camel]

And every study shows that you spend more when you use someone else's money.

[Rachel Cruz]

12 to 18% more. Some studies are showing, I mean, like, it's a pretty significant. And we've had people do their debt free. Scream. And I remember one lady was saying that they did everything but they kept the credit card. And then halfway through their debt snowball, she's like, Cause they just used it for, like, their utilities. Like, what was they were gonna pay anyways? And she said, when we cut it up, I realized, oh, my gosh, we did actually use it for a little bit more. And then those things were like, oh, yeah. There's just like, not this emotional attachment to your money when you're using someone else's money. She's like, we did end up spending more. Like, we did. She was like, it's great. We literally saved more the month we cut up the credit card to when we went to debit. So.

[George Camel]

So here's the experiment. Don't use your credit card for 30 days and then track how much you spent between the months on a normal given month. And you'll be shocked. So. Cause if you're thinking, I'm gonna spend 12% more, that's like saying I get 12% cash back on my debit card. That's effectively what you're saving by not using a credit card.

[Rachel Cruz]

Not doing that. Yep, it's good. All right, next. I know I need to get out of debt, but I'm scared to take my savings all the way down to $1,000. Can I just leave a little extra in my starter emergency fund?

[George Camel]

This is a tough one.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And this is real.

[George Camel]

So baby step one in the Ramsey plan is save $1,000. Once you have that, anything beyond that, any savings, any, you know, non retirement funds you can sell to get out of debt, do it. And that scares people. Cause if they have 10 grand, we would say use 9,000 of that to attack debt. Keep a thousand in the bank. That's scary for people. And they go, rachel, it's not enough in today's world. And the retort is, it was never enough. It wasn't enough in 1992 when Dave came up with these steps. It was just enough to cover the ankle biter emergencies causing people to fall off the wagon.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. And it's really interesting when you think about it, because people want to keep money in savings. Cause they feel like, okay, there's like safety there, but yet I'm gonna have all this other debt over here. And if something were to happen to your job, that savings probably won't last you very long anyways, where you're gonna have three or four debts that you could have paid off sitting there waiting for a payment. And if you can't have the money to pay it, then it's gonna go into collections. You're gonna get late fees, like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's risk either side of the coin. And so might as well use that motivation to get out of debt quickly to then bump up that starter emergency fund. The three to six months of expenses.

[George Camel]

That's my favorite part is people don't think about the psychological fuel you gain from a thousand bucks. And you go, oh, my gosh, I need to get out of debt now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

You get too comfortable when you have 10, 20 grand sitting in there.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. And we know, you know, if there's life things happening, you know, if you're about to have a baby, if you're moving and you need money for moving expenses, like there's a time a big.

[George Camel]

Emergency really does pop up.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Deposit at snowball. Fix the thing, do the thing, and then go back to it. It's great, right? So, like, there is. There's caveats around that, but overall, yeah.

[George Camel]

And this is not forever. This is 18 to 24 months on average is what it takes people to do the debt snowball.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right.

[George Camel]

Then you can work on your fully funded emergency fund. That's the goal is three to six months of expenses as you're never going to debt again. Insurance plan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Love it.

[George Camel]

So I hear you, I see you. I understand. But 4 in 10 people have nothing in savings. So to try to get someone to save up $5,000 as a starter emergency.

[Rachel Cruz]

Fund takes them forever to do it.

[George Camel]

They would never do it.

[Rachel Cruz]

And in that process of saving up that much money, you could be paying off debt but you're paying more in interest and still debt payments. Right? So, like, just. Yep. Get a quick emergency fund and start paying off that debt.

[George Camel]

Move on.

[Rachel Cruz]

Move on.

[George Camel]

Is it okay to buy nice things? Sometimes I feel guilty since I've worked the baby steps so long. Oh, what do you think about that?

[Rachel Cruz]

I think it is great.

[George Camel]

When is the time to buy nice things?

[Rachel Cruz]

I mean, if you have the money for it, if you're intentional and knowing, like, yeah, I. I have saved for this, or it's in the budget. It's within the boundaries that I've set for myself, you can definitely enjoy things. And one thing that I love to buy and enjoy is Cozy Earth.

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

So nice. It is like, good quality products, you guys. And it's like the sheets. I got a robe.

[George Camel]

Oh, yeah, I need to get the robe.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know the robe. I have a blanket. I have. Winston has the socks. I have joggers.

[George Camel]

PJ Set pjs.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. I've gotten so much stuff from them because seriously, their products are amazing. And I love specifically the bamboo. Anything. Bamboo.

[George Camel]

I didn't know where. Where have we been in society where we didn't know we could make clothing from bamboo? That's an amazing invention.

[Rachel Cruz]

Amazing. And they're giving us an amazing discount, too.

[George Camel]

Yeah. Up to 40 off for our Smart Money happy hour listeners. If you go to cozyearth.com smart money or use the promo code Smart Money at checkout. And again, this is one of those things where you go, I'm out of debt. I have the emergency fund. It's okay to buy nice things because you're doing it with cash, with intentionality.

[Rachel Cruz]

Love it. All right, next, George. I invest about 10% through my company Match, but I have about 5% going to crypto. It's fine to have a balance. Right.

[George Camel]

So here's. Here's the take that might be controversial. People don't. May not. They think, I hate crypto. I'm not a crypto hater. There's a time and place for it. Most people are not investing 15% into retirement. Instead, they're putting everything they have into crypto because they have all this FOMO.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

And so if you're investing 15% into retirement and you want to use some of your fun money to gamble on crypto or whatever else. A single stock, and it's not a big part of your net worth or your investment portfolio. Go for it.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right.

[George Camel]

Just know it's more volatile.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. You.

[George Camel]

Yeah, it could go up a thousand percent.

[Rachel Cruz]

It's not an Investment like you're investing in a currency.

[George Camel]

You're trading currency.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're trading currency is basically the US Dollar for crypto.

[George Camel]

A crypto.

[Rachel Cruz]

And then you. Yeah.

[George Camel]

In the hope, a store of value, as they call it. Rachel, There you go on the blockchain.

[Rachel Cruz]

The blockchain and everything. Yeah. So listen, if you're going to put your hard earned money away for savings for me at least, I'm like, I want to know that it's going to work. And, and when you invest in the market, you're going to get anywhere, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12% return, sometimes higher.

[George Camel]

In 2024, the S&P 500 returned 24%.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, I know some of our, some of our funds, when we pulled our stuff, I was like, oh my gosh, it was a great year, amazing year. So do that 15%. And then. Yeah, if there's other things you want to do outside of that, then go and do it. Just make sure you have the money for it.

[George Camel]

Good word there. I think we settled that. That's good.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, yes.

[George Camel]

I want to be a doctor, but I can't cash flow an eight year long medical education. Is it always bad to take out student loans and pay them off later when I know I'm going to make really good money?

[Rachel Cruz]

I know this is a hard one. Medical and law is tough. Law school, medical school.

[George Camel]

Because nobody, unless you come from a lot of money, has the cash, $300,000 sitting around to cover the cost of education for a lot of these schools.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

So what do you tell someone, as they call the Ramsey show, and they go, rachel, I want to go to med school. Don't have 300 grand sitting around.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, I have found and talked to people that there are programs out there that you can actually apply for, you can get. And again, it's going to be school specific. So you may not be the school, the medical school you want to go to, but there are programs out there that you can, you know, you can work, you can do. It's like, I don't want to say internship because it's medical school, but there's this level that they will actually pay your way through. And there are some places that it's like, yeah, if you go and work for a certain place, they will help as well. So it's been interesting because throughout the years it doesn't happen often. Usually we get the call of like $250,000 to be a dentist and like, we gotta pay it off. Right? I mean, that's usually the call we get. Is on the back end. But we have talked to people that have done these like creative ways to get through higher ed and even medical school and law school that it's like, oh my gosh, it's incredible. And they actually look. And I think that's the thing is actually be curious about it and go in and research and talk to people because there are other options out there. Again, they're slim. I'm not saying it's like everywhere available all the time, but just go and get creative about it and be curious about it because you will find other options. I just don't like the idea of there's no option. This is it. This is all you gotta do and that's what it's gonna be. Yeah. And it's tough. And life happens. And we hear those calls too, George, where someone's in the middle of medical school or you might not graduate their family. Yes. And then they have to drop out and then they have.

[George Camel]

Just because you didn't finish, you still have to pay back every cent.

[Rachel Cruz]

Still a level of risk even though, yes, you probably will make great money at the end as you're starting to work and everything. But.

[George Camel]

And you could stair step it and go, all right, I'm going to become a nurse practitioner and then wait, save up, get some experience and then go for the md. So there's other ways to do it. There's a lot of options out there. But just saying, no, whatever. Just going to go 400 grand debt and hope for the best. Not a great plan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

And I have some family that's in the health field and that's kind of how it's viewed. It's just sort of like they can't even look at the number. They just go, well, I guess I'll just die with it. Or I'll just make amazing money hopefully and pay it off quick.

[Rachel Cruz]

And just like, you know, a traditional four year degree. Every school is different. And most people don't care where you went to medical school. Right. I mean, I guess if it's like, oh, I went to Harvard Medical, that's like pretty amazing, right? I mean like, yeah. So there's certain ones that you like actually know and hear about.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

But overall, I don't know where my OB GYN went to medical school. I really don't like, I don't know where doctors go to school.

[George Camel]

And if he told you or she told you, you would be like, oh, I never heard of that and be okay, that's great.

[Rachel Cruz]

Like, I don't know, it's just. It doesn't matter. So. So the price is going to change, too, depending on the school. So look into that, too.

[George Camel]

It's a good word.

[Rachel Cruz]

Love it. Oh, my turn.

[George Camel]

Your turn. Sorry, I don't want to steal.

[Rachel Cruz]

Sorry. Why pause investing for any reason? It is free money.

[George Camel]

Oh, they're talking about the employer match. So we say, hey, if you're getting out of debt, pause investing. Focus all of your efforts, every spare dollar you can throw at your debt. And that means bringing investing down to zero for a short time. Again, 18 to 24 months on average.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And again, people are like, well, it's free money. But what we've realized is the faster you can get out, then you actually have the margin to go and invest 15% of your income, which is baby.

[George Camel]

Step four instead of 3%.

[Rachel Cruz]

3, 4%. Yeah. Most people aren't really investing like a. Like a ton, if they are even investing. There's a lot of people that aren't even in a position to invest. So the idea is to get yourself. Yeah. Focus, get out of debt, and then suddenly all this is freed up. Like, you think about the average car payment for a new car is $737. You think about that. You think about, you know, who knows what, like credit, a credit card bill, student loan payment, a 400, 500. Like you. You add up all this debt, and when all of that's freed up, it gives you a lot of margin to do things. So.

[George Camel]

And most people would tell you, well, I can't invest 15%. And I would dig into their finances, find out, well, they have a bunch of debt payments. Of course they can't.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right.

[George Camel]

And so getting out of debt is so important. And pausing investing, again, puts a fuel. It kind of lights a fire under your butt to go, I want to get out of that even faster so I can get back to investing. If you're really that excited about it, you would want to free up that payment to throw into the market.

[Rachel Cruz]

It's good. Love it.

[George Camel]

I have so many.

[Rachel Cruz]

You got two.

[George Camel]

Is Internet safety actually something I should care about? This is a plant, Rachel. You planted this one.

[Rachel Cruz]

I love Delete me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just wanted to talk about delete me because it is true, George, regardless of where you are financially, we have to be thinking about this because our data is out there, y'all. I mean, think about all the forms you fill out online. I mean, there is so much that we do online, and our information is there, and it's what makes me Mad. George, can I just tell you what makes me mad?

[George Camel]

Please.

[Rachel Cruz]

That these companies go and get your data, and then they take it together, and then they're like, hey, company, over here. I'll sell you George and Rachel's data for money. They're making money off of us, these data brokers.

[George Camel]

Give me a cut at least.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, give us something. Send us a check in the mail using our data. Making money. So delete me goes in and removes your information from those websites. And it's a beautiful thing because we want to be protective of our data these days.

[George Camel]

Yes. Because you're playing offense when it comes to the baby steps, but you also got to play defense. And that comes into play with your insurance and products like this that protect you online from the risks of online scams. And so if you want to check it out, they're giving our listeners a great discount. 20% off any of their plans. They're already super affordable. Go to joindeleteme.com smartmoney I just got my parents on this.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, you did? Yeah, Mr. And Mrs. Camel.

[George Camel]

They're stoked on it because their information was all over. I was like, mom, dad, this is not okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Yep. Get that out of there.

[George Camel]

Get your info out of there. And they'll send you a report showing you exactly what they've done and how much time they've saved you. I'm. I'm at 66 hours. Don't like to brag, but I'm beating you. I'm beating you.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, you are. That's amazing. Well, so great.

[George Camel]

Yeah, we'll drop a link in the description as well.

[Rachel Cruz]

Check out delete me. All right. Since you got another one. Yeah, keep going.

[George Camel]

I have a bonus question. Is it so bad, Rachel, to dip into my emergency fund savings for a summer vacation?

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, is it just so bad for.

[George Camel]

The blank that I feel like is an emergency? Because I want it really bad.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know. So. And this is always funny to me, because to me, the emergency fund, I'm like, I don't want to touch it. Like, I don't want.

[George Camel]

I'm like, it is a truly breaking case of emergency.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Yes. So, yeah, I mean, the emergency fund is there for an emergency, and that's when things come up that are unexpected, they're urgent, and they are necessary. It's like pop quiz. And so it's just there as your safety net. So saving beyond that for things that you want is so key. George, are we so legalistic. Is this episode. Are we nitpicking?

[George Camel]

No one's Having.

[Rachel Cruz]

Are we just taking a hair and we're just splitting it? Just. I don't know.

[George Camel]

Here's the thing. I'm not legalistic at all. I just feel like the people who say these things are also the ones who aren't making progress, but then want to complain that the plan doesn't work because they're not doing it. Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's good, George.

[George Camel]

It's like if I was your personal trainer and I was like, rachel, follow this workout plan and this diet plan. And he said, well, I just. I tweaked it a little bit.

[Rachel Cruz]

And then I get mad that I'm like, where's my results? Where's my results?

[George Camel]

I went to Sonic twice this week. Does that matter?

[Rachel Cruz]

The mozzarella sticks, they're so good. They're just so good. Yeah, but then you're like, but I'm not looking great. And your trainer is like, well, I'm sorry.

[George Camel]

That's the thing. If you want results, follow the plan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Because I'm like, we're being nitpicky on some of this stuff, but also we have to be nitpicky on it because it's things that have come up that we've realized people get screwed on. So the emergency fund, someone uses it for their vacation, and then what happens? Like, something happens with their car. You know, they lose a job, and then they're like, oh, no, what do I do? So, like, there's a reason that all of these things have come up and why we have those answers. So we love you. There's grace and life.

[George Camel]

We want to see you.

[Rachel Cruz]

Things are going to happen, but we do. And this is, like, the most effective painless way to live. Painless?

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Painless, yeah. It's hard, though.

[George Camel]

Well, there's sacrifice involved.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. But it's a little bit of pain there.

[George Camel]

Do you want, like, pain for the next 25 years of being stressed and broke and not getting ahead, or do you want to sacrifice for 18 months, sell some crap, work a little harder, get out of the debt so that you can have the next 25 years of freedom?

[Rachel Cruz]

Freeze it up.

[George Camel]

Flexibility.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's what we want for you. So it's the fastest way to go from point A to point B. And we are here for you.

[George Camel]

We're not fuddy dates.

[Rachel Cruz]

I just felt like. I know. I just felt like we were just, like, being a little bit pecky.

[George Camel]

There's a reason why Rachel doesn't like conflict. She wants everyone to have a good time.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, I like conflict. I like a good Debate can me and debate me.

[George Camel]

Fine, we'll debate on this next one.

[Rachel Cruz]

Those were my fists.

[George Camel]

I'll play devil's advocate on the next one. How about that?

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, that's fine. Let's do that.

[George Camel]

Is it okay to do the baby steps? A little out of order. We already have a college fund saved for my eighth grader, and I don't want to give that up now to pay off debt.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, I would say yeah. I mean, I would not take money out of the college fund to pay off debt. So just pause it. Keep it there.

[George Camel]

But, Rachel, you always talk about the power of compound growth and how important it is to invest early and often and consistently.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, but all of that money that's sitting in that fund is getting compound. Interesting. You're making your money.

[George Camel]

Have you seen the cost of education, Rachel? It's out of control.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know. Well, then do you have to choose a different school if you don't. If your students doesn't have the money.

[George Camel]

If they don't go to my alma mater, what's the point of anything? They got to go to my sorority that I went to.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm gonna say they don't rush, live.

[George Camel]

In the same dorm, and I'm willing to pay 10 times the price I paid for the privilege, man.

[Rachel Cruz]

How much do you think that kind of parenting, and parenting in general, so much the parents issue, not the kids.

[George Camel]

It's almost 100% the parents, and I don't get that. And the parents train the entitlement into the kids.

[Rachel Cruz]

I love the University of Tennessee. Like, I. I am. I cheer for them, love them. But I don't understand this whole college of, like, oh, my God, you have to go to the school I went to. I don't get that. Who loves college that much?

[George Camel]

I think it. You know, the truth is the parents, it was like their heyday. It was the last time they had freedom. They were cool, they were carefree.

[Rachel Cruz]

Do you think that's it?

[George Camel]

And now they're fuddy daddy parents, and they want to relive the glory days vicariously through their kid.

[Rachel Cruz]

But, see, I think it's less. I think it's less of, like. Oh, the fun of it. I think it's like this ego of pride. Yeah, I think it's more pride than, like, fun because they could go have fun anywhere.

[George Camel]

That's why I didn't go to, like, a cool college. I wanted to go to a college so not cool that I never was like, you gotta go to my college. It was so cool. You know what I mean, you chose.

[Rachel Cruz]

It purposely for that reason.

[George Camel]

I purposely chose. I chose a small, private Christian school that had, like, a thousand kids.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know you did, but you did that just to give the middle finger to, like, this, like.

[George Camel]

No, I did it. I did it because I liked the. I'm stressed out by groups of people. I think I was like, I don't want to be 20,000 people. People is too much.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, I know. Yeah.

[George Camel]

So I don't know.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So no real reason.

[Rachel Cruz]

So I would say to that question, yes, then you may have to change schools, meaning go in state, community college.

[George Camel]

I'm having fun. But the truth is, you've got to put your own mask on first. And that means getting out of debt. Junior will figure out college.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Between what you've saved and scholarships and working part time, they'll figure it out. But you need to, like, retire someday.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. You're going to retire.

[George Camel]

So don't live with debt forever. That's my take.

[Rachel Cruz]

So good, George. All right. Money is so tight. I cannot imagine giving up 10% of what little margin I have for tithing or generosity. Is it okay not to prioritize giving right now? Ooh, this is a good one.

[George Camel]

This is a tough one because a lot of people go, well, Rachel, you're telling me to be so intentional and throw every dollar at the debt. Why would I give 10% to my church or this charity when I could be using it to get out of debt faster.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. Yeah. So when it comes to giving, for me, I think it's one of these things we put into our lives as a rhythm that it is, like, this is just part of what we do. And there is something about. Again, I don't wanna be legalistic with it, especially with giving. That's really sad to be legalistic about something you have to give. Yeah. Yeah. So again, give a little until you can give a lot. Like whatever we recommend, 10%, it's just kind of this baseline. And as. And as Christians. Right. Like, that's in Scripture.

[George Camel]

You're a person of faith.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. There's a level of that. Okay. That's a good baseline. Because money is so much more than just the money. Like, it is so much about the person. And when you are giving, what you are doing is releasing a level of that control and opening your hands and just saying, yeah, this is world in my life is not all about me. Like, there's a level of selflessness that starts to happen when you open your hands and you give a little. And when you do that over time. And as you start to build wealth, it just is a part of who you are. You are a giver. Because let me tell you, if you build wealth, I think sometimes the more money you get, the harder it is to give. Because you see a dollar amount and you're just like, oh my gosh, that's a lot of that 10% of that income. And if you're not in the rhythm of it, it can be harder to finagle and be like, eh, it's not that big of a deal. You know, you can kind of talk yourself out of it too. And so when it does, when your income grows as you're building wealth and all the things and giving is a part of your life that continues to magnify who you are. And that's what we want for you. Like, money is not going to make you happy. It's not like it's not. And we live in a world where the center of so much of what we do is to be successful and to like, make a lot of money and earn a lot of money. And it's just like money, money, money, money, money. But you're missing the point if that's it. The point of building wealth is to, yes, change your family tree. Enjoy it. Yeah. But it's also to help people and to give. Like, use it as a great tool in life. And I just think you miss that opportunity regardless of where you are in the baby steps.

[George Camel]

So much tact, so much wisdom.

[Rachel Cruz]

Wow. Preach it well.

[George Camel]

The only thing I'll add to that I wrote in my book Breaking Free from Broke, I have a whole chapter called Generosity is Joy where I break down not just like the spiritual aspects of the benefits there, but also the scientific benefits of giving. Like you live longer, you have less stress, you're a more attractive person, it's more contagious. And I do think there's a piece of it where you have a flat tire in life. If you're so good at saving and investing but you're terrible at giving.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Or if you're so you're a great spender but you can't save, you want to have a well rounded tire there to keep it inflated. And that means being able to give, being able to spend, being able to save. Those are the healthiest people I found.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Again, it's that well roundedness. I love that. All right, George, let's do our last one. We went through the whole fishbowl.

[George Camel]

I'm impressed. Let's end on a doozy. I'm Proud of owning my house at age 24, but my income isn't high enough to handle a 15 year mortgage payment. The 30 year is decent. Right. So here's the way I hear it. This is what I get a lot. Why wouldn't I do the 30 year mortgage and give myself wiggle room? The obsession with wiggle room is fascinating, but it's always about wiggle room. They're like, well, Rachel, I can pay it off like a 15 if I want to wiggle room. Let me have a lower payment. I'm like, why don't we think that way with all types of debt? Well, give me the car payment that's lower and extend the terms by double. You'd be like, no, no, no, no. I'm getting ripped off. But with mortgages, all of a sudden, we go, this is the smart thing to do. And we know how to do math.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

The math says you will spend over double in interest.

[Rachel Cruz]

I mean, so much in interest, because.

[George Camel]

The time is double. But also the interest rate is usually slightly higher on a 30 year.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. Yep.

[George Camel]

And now with interest rates where they're at, you could be paying hundreds of thousands. I did the math on this. You have a $300,000 loan. You could end up paying $430,000 in interest. So you ended up paying over double what the house is actually worth for the pleasure of the 30 year.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

And everyone has great intentions, but the fall of humanity has already happened long ago. I don't think if you get a 30 year, you're going to pay it off in seven years.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep, yep.

[George Camel]

But I think if you get a 15, the chances of you paying it off in 10 or 7, much higher.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I agree with that. And again, I think that there's. There's things and even some of these questions in today's episode. You know, in the. In the grand scheme of life, can I just be a little gray here? It's like, you're not off the rails. Right. It's like, that's one that.

[George Camel]

It's like, it's not a sin.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like, oh, my gosh, you're like, you know, you've left the Ramsey plan. Right. But our whole point of this is like, what's the fastest way? What's the most effective way to get you from point A, from where you.

[George Camel]

Are the most probable way.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. To be debt free, build wealth, invest, be smart, be wise, have peace with this part of your life. Like, all of that. Right. We want to do that. As quickly as possible. And we have found, yeah, the 15 year getting out, putting yourself in a system that's going to get you out of debt, and half the time, even if you followed it 15 years. But we also find that people are paying off their houses in, like, 10, 11, nine years. Like, we're kind of getting all over the map in those years that people are doing the baby steps. So again, it just kind of puts you in the system. Kind of a forced payoff plan. And it works. Yeah, and it works.

[George Camel]

And here's the deal. When you have the wiggle room, you'll take it. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Cruz]

You'll go, well, your lifestyle creeps slowly.

[George Camel]

Yeah, we could spend that money on this instead. And how many people are really investing the difference? Close to zero.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right? That's exactly.

[George Camel]

Not buying it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Not buying it.

[George Camel]

Here. Soapbox over.

[Rachel Cruz]

All right, George, what do you think? We really. We really.

[George Camel]

What is the end? I mean, this was a real bummer of an episode. But here's the thing. I wanted to address it because I think people think. Well, they're not gonna. They don't ever talk about this. And I'm the exception. We're not saying that you can't be successful, that you can't be wealthy if you don't follow the Ramsey plan to a T. But I also know that if you do follow it to a T, you will find success.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

So it like, it ain't broken.

[Rachel Cruz]

You don't need to fix it. That's right.

[George Camel]

And so is it harder? Yes. What you're really saying is I don't want to sacrifice more. I don't want to work harder. I don't want to save up a bigger down payment or have to go further out of town to find that house. I don't want to. To figure out how to use a debit card to rent a car, even though I know it's possible. It's all these hoops that are in our minds, and really we just want convenience because it's a tough time to be alive. So I have a lot of empathy for everyone out there that says I'm going to do it my way. That's fine. Just don't complain to me when it doesn't go your way and you're not making the progress you want to make.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep. There you go. Coach George.

[George Camel]

Yeah, Coach George says. Coach George. Like wearing whatever this old woman jacket is.

[Rachel Cruz]

What would you be a coach of? Chess. Is there a chess coach?

[George Camel]

Come on.

[Rachel Cruz]

What would be your sport that you'd.

[George Camel]

Coach Is chess considered a sport? No.

[Rachel Cruz]

I don't know. I just thought.

[George Camel]

I think it is amongst chess professionals.

[Rachel Cruz]

How about a pu. Have you seen the puzzle competitions? What if you're like a ref? For a puzzle competition?

[George Camel]

I'm gonna go Little league. Badminton. It's just bougie enough. Yeah. If your child is playing badminton, you're living pretty good.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're living okay. I don't think you need.

[George Camel]

I don't think I can yell at the kids. I don't need to yell at the kids.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[George Camel]

You know what I mean? We're there to have a good time.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'd be a swim coach. Not because I'm a great swimmer. I just like the. Like, I just feel like it's intense. Go, go, go, go.

[George Camel]

I think the smell of chlorine would be enough to steer me away from that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, that's true.

[George Camel]

And the sound of indoor pools with a noise.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's fair.

[George Camel]

It's a trigger for me, but good for you. What are you, a big swimmer growing up?

[Rachel Cruz]

Nope. Nope. Never done it in my life.

[George Camel]

Can you swim?

[Rachel Cruz]

Just felt like. Can I swim, like, professionally, like. Like the strokes or, like, survival?

[George Camel]

How long could you last?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. In a lake, I could float for a long time. I just kick my feet back and wait for that rescue to happen.

[George Camel]

You think it would just happen for you? Like, I'm Rachel Cruz. I think they'd find me. Do you have a chip to where they could find you? Like a dog?

[Rachel Cruz]

No.

[George Camel]

I could.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm a good swimmer. Are you a good swimmer?

[George Camel]

No. Terrible. Never learned. Growing up, wasn't a big swimming family. Yeah. I could stay afloat. I'm not saying, like, you throw me in a pool, I'm like. But not trying to hang out in water where I can't touch the ground. Not enjoyable for me. You know what I mean? I'm there for a good time. Not to impress you.

[Rachel Cruz]

If I push. Okay. If you're over. If you and Whitney are hanging out at our house and one of my kids pushes you in our pool in the deep end, how are you getting to the side? Give me, like, a motion.

[George Camel]

I will say this. It won't be pretty. It will look masculine in the way I flail my muscles. But it won't be like, wow, that was so artful, the way he crossed. It's gonna be like, you know, I do like floaties. I think floaties are underrated. Just gonna put it out there.

[Rachel Cruz]

So good. All right. So glad. Okay. Well, before we spill the tea on our guilty as charged. Let's give our drink a rating, shall we?

[George Camel]

Yeah. This is a cranberry fizz mocktail. Let me get one more to make sure before I land my rating.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm going nine out of ten.

[George Camel]

Wow.

[Rachel Cruz]

I liked it.

[George Camel]

I'm gonna go seven out of ten.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[George Camel]

I wanted it to be a little sweeter, a little more sour, a little more tart. Just a little more of everything that it wanted to be.

[Rachel Cruz]

It tried.

[George Camel]

You know what I mean? But it was a very good drink. And I'll say aesthetically, 10 out of.

[Rachel Cruz]

10, it's kind of like a mocktail. Ish.

[George Camel]

Yeah. You know, I always underestimate how sugar on a rim will just get on everything and make it stinky. So I'm still. I'm still not sure about sugar rims, but it was great. Here's what's in it. It's got rosemary thyme syrup, which includes rosemary thyme, maple syrup, and water. It's got cranberry juice, cranberry sparkling water, and the garnish that was adorned this maple syrup or honey. And then you use coarse sugar around the rim with whole cranberries and rosemary inside the drink.

[Rachel Cruz]

Wow, that's a lot of effort.

[George Camel]

And this is not a cheap mocktail. $3.82 per glass.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, that's a. Yeah, that's a pricey one.

[George Camel]

So this is one you want to pull out with the fine china if you want to impress the in laws. Yeah, that's where I'm going to categorize this. So get the recipe in the show notes. Give it a try this weekend. Get the kids involved. It's a mocktail. Have some fun with it.

[Rachel Cruz]

I love it. All right, George, now it's time for guilty as charged. And this is where our producer, Kelly gives us a new guilty as charged question every week. And if we're guilty, we take a sip.

[George Camel]

All right, if you were not a Ramsey personality and you didn't know anything about our principles, which Ramsey thing would you be most likely to slip on?

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, great question.

[George Camel]

So I meant you were men and blacked. Your memory is gone. You don't know who you are.

[Rachel Cruz]

Credit cards.

[George Camel]

That was way too easy. How long have you been dreaming of this?

[Rachel Cruz]

For sure.

[George Camel]

Okay. Why credit cards? For you.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm a spender, so it's going to be something in the spending. It probably wouldn't be in, like, the investment saving side. It would be in the spending side. And I would totally play the game. The airline miles, the. Yeah, all that stuff. I would totally play into that because.

[George Camel]

You would go, are you judging me? I spend enough that I'll get the rewards. And you do like to travel and.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I would, I would finagle all of that.

[George Camel]

Would you have like 16 cards or whatever like, you think you'd be really.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's a good question.

[George Camel]

Maximizing. Or would you have like, oh, here's my three cars. I have one for travel. I have one.

[Rachel Cruz]

You know, I think I would probably just do like a travel. Have a card. But all the points go to travel because I love to travel and I like bougie travel. So if I get like the lounge, right?

[George Camel]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Or upgrade to first class with miles, like, you kind of get perks, Right? That's. That's part of their selling point. So I don't need perks to, like, Amazon. I don't need perks for, like a specific store credit card, like a Target. I don't think I'd want. I think I'd want perks for travel. So for me, knowing that I'm not gonna have credit cards, because I think I would massively overspend to play into that whole, like, purchase while telling yourself.

[George Camel]

I would spend exactly the same on a debit card.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, that would be me. I mean, seriously. But a debit card, it keeps me in check. And there's something about spending in the present, in the moment. Like, literally when I know I'm buying something, it's going right out of my account. There's no delay. Yes. It's an instant feeling knowing that this is happening. It's not a delayed response for later on. And it gives you a level of control. And I like the idea too, of at the end of the month, there's not a bill. Literally, you just pay your way through life and it's great. Right. We have bills for, like, electricity and cable or, you know, those.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

But just to know that our life, from our out to eat grocery, like, everything that we're doing, it's done.

[George Camel]

Yeah. You're living in the now and you're building for the future.

[Rachel Cruz]

It does. And it keeps me. Yes. There's no risk in that because it forces you into a system of living within your means when you're living with debit. And that's genuinely a better place to be. I'd much rather have peace than to have this, like, extra airline miles. Right. Because I can save up with the money I wasn't spending on a credit card and still, like, travel. Well, that's what we do. That's what I do. It's great.

[George Camel]

And here's the thing. We are $0 in debit card debt as a nation. We are $1.2 trillion in credit card debt as a nation. So don't tell me that they're the same and that you use it like, if that was the case, we'd all be doing great. But here we are, record levels of debt. It's only going up and up and up. And for those reasons, I can't go into debt using a debit card.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right.

[George Camel]

It's impossible. So I like that level.

[Rachel Cruz]

I would rather chase peace.

[George Camel]

Having some discipline.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's good.

[George Camel]

All right.

[Rachel Cruz]

How about you? Georgia would be like, investments.

[George Camel]

I feel like, oh, that's true. I might if I was Ramsay ish did no Ramsay. I would go like, I'm going to invest up to the match and I'll take on a 30 year mortgage. Those would be my two things I would probably do if I had no idea I was just going in blind. I'd probably be living that life.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And I think the 30 year mortgage I could justify because I go, well, I could invest the difference. I could probably make more in the market. If I'm going to be a mathematical nerd.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Instead of chasing freedom, I'd be chasing a spread on some investment and probably get burned on it eventually and probably still be in debt.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Camel]

But be like, well, it's okay. You know, I've talked to some friends who are like, well, I still have my student loans, even though I could pay it off because it's a low interest. That would be me.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. You'd play the math game a lot.

[George Camel]

I could see that I would be bragging about my low interest on my mortgage instead of bragging that I don't have a mortgage and that I have a 0% rate. So happy to be on the other side.

[Rachel Cruz]

Good, George. Good for you.

[George Camel]

I'm glad to be. I'm glad to know what I know. You know, ignorance was bliss until you were just like, oh, there's a different, better way. Yeah, let's try that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So that's my encouragement to all of you. Just try the Ramsey plan. As is not a la carte and just see what happens and see if you don't make more progress than you ever thought.

[Rachel Cruz]

So good, George. Well, this was a fun, fun episode. I took a sip. It was fun. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to leave us a review and check out our other episode on our most hated advice. And that episode is after this and make sure to subscribe to the channel so you don't miss an all new episode next Thursday of Smart Money Happy Hour.