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- [00:04]
A
This is Smart Women, Smart Power, a podcast that features conversations with some of the world's most powerful women. We feature thought leaders at all career levels where we explore, among other things, the many contributions that women make to the fields of international business, national security, foreign policy and international development. Does having women in positions of power influence the outcomes of decisions in these fields? Why or why not? Join me, Dr. Kathleen McInnes, Director of the Smart Women's Smart Power Initiative at the center for Strategic and International Studies, for these incredible conversations. Iceland does not have a standing military. So how did our guests today, Brynja Hod Oskarsdruther and Icelandic civilian, end up working for NATO in Afghanistan? And how did her experiences there help shape the views of lawmakers across the NATO alliance on defense and security? Her story shows us that even without armed forces, Iceland plays a vital role in the Alliance. I'm Dr. Kathleen McInnis and this is Smart Women, Smart Power. So welcome to the podcast Bridje. As I mentioned in the introduction, you're coming to us from, from Iceland by way of Brussels at the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. I'd love to start our conversation, as we always do here, with your origin story. How did you get into this field?
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B
First of all, thank you for having me on. I'm very excited to be here today. So how did I get myself into working in defence and security? I began my career in national broadcasting as a journalist, really as a baby journalist, and as a correspondent in the area where I am from in Iceland, which is the west, through which are really closer to Greenland than to mainland Europe.
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A
What was your beat? Was it just sort of like local coverage or.
- [02:04]
B
Exactly. So in the beginning was all like local news. And then as I evolved, I got to do more current affairs. And I very quickly knew, and I think I even knew before I started that role, that I wanted to more like foreign affairs, security. I think like a lot of people in our kind of wider fields, like, oh, yes, one day I'll become a war correspondent, realized pretty quickly that that was not the path that I was going to go.
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A
What sort of taught you that? What was the sort of like, aha, like, ooh, moment?
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B
Well, I actually think that moment only came on, came like not that many years ago, maybe realizing that. I think I've always had this drive to really understand how decision making works and how kind of understand institutions and how processes happen, like how the decision making happens that ends up often negatively impacting people that are in conflict areas. And I think that drive was stronger than being on the reporting side. Of it and wanting to really go be on the inside of all these organizations. So I worked for, like, you. It's like, when I transitioned from journalism, I went and worked for UNICEF and then later for UN Women, which was obviously more on the NGO humanitarian side. But then I did my master's in security studies because I felt that I wanted to understand, like, okay, why do wars begin? How do we end them? And obviously through that education. Education learned that wars are easier to begin than to end. Fact and. Yeah.
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A
And wars can often start more work. Yeah, it's. It's a.
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B
Exactly. Exactly. And that kind of. Kind of started solid, solidifying my kind of understanding of security, foreign policy, etc, and then I was very fortunate that after finishing my masters in London, I got a job with Jane's Defense Intelligence.
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A
Really?
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B
Yeah. So there in 2016 and 17.
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A
Talk about, like, hardcore research.
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B
That's amazing. And at the time, actually, Jane's was Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center. So, I mean, my first few days in the job. So this is obviously during the height of Islamic terrorism, both in Europe, but also through the Levant. So my days were basically like. I spent my days analyzing horrific imagery, writing, like, smaller kind of captions of gruesome terrorism attacks, which was obviously quite difficult. But can I ask really quickly?
- [04:39]
A
Because I think, you know, this is something that. That needs to be sort of talked about more openly. But how did you ground yourself psychologically? Right. Because, like, there is something to secondhand trauma, seeing those things over and over again, that has a profound psychological effect.
- [04:55]
B
It truly does. I don't really know how I did that at the time. Well, I think a lot of, like, exercise and yoga, for sure, but also just having an honest conversation with my colleagues and my bosses. And I do remember. I do remember, like, very explicitly one Friday where I had been. I can't remember. I just remember there was Friday, and I remember that I was just, like, completely saturated of analyzing violence. And I think it was something around the Islamic State was doing horrific things to the Yazidi women and children. And I just remember that being a moment where I actually went to my boss and I was like, actually, like, I think. I think I need to, like, stop here. Like, and. And we just had, like, a very supportive conversation. And obviously he was aware that this is difficult. You know, it's. It's not. You know, humans don't, like, watching violence and trauma or shouldn't at least, and it sits with you, so. And he was very understanding of that. And I was like, sure, we can, like, also we can get you counseling. We can, you know, you can have a break, like go home and like, you know, cycle and, you know, do whatever gets you or head spinning into, like, other more kind of peaceful ways and. Yeah.
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A
Wow.
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B
Because it's stuff that sits with you. And I mean, we all know, like, with social media today and the imagery that you see online, like, of course it has a traumatizing effect on all of us. And even more so when you're younger and unhardened as an analyst or a policy specialist, I think.
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A
Well, and I think we do, in our field, in our community, I feel like we do a really good job with compartmentalization almost to the point of being unhealthy. Yes, we're probably just trying to be unhealthy because, you know, just sort of shutting off that side and then focusing on everything else. You know, there's just this. There is this burden of what we are doing and the things that we.
- [07:00]
B
Are.
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A
You know, a part of this ecosystem of decisions that shape the world.
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B
Yeah, I do agree with that. But then at the same time, the way, like, if you don't kind of compartmentalize it, you can't do the job, you know.
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A
Right.
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B
And I at least, like, in my kind of, I often think, like, if I wouldn't be doing this job, who would be doing it instead? And would that person come in with the same values and the same ideas about human rights or the same ideas about gender and all of these things? And like. Well, I think in this situation, I'm the best person to do this job, you know, or like, I should, or like, I have a responsibility to use my knowledge and my understanding and my background to work on these topics because, you know, maybe somebody else who wouldn't share my kind of, I don't know, like humanitarian values or something would do it completely differently or put a different focus.
- [07:57]
A
So you're at genes, you're doing this intense work. So how did you. How did you decide to. This leads to the decision that you're bringing to us today. How did you decide to stay in this field?
- [08:09]
B
So I was asked. So as you mentioned in the introduction, Iceland doesn't have a standing army, even though obviously we had a big US military base there, which left about 20 years ago. So we don't have a standing army, but obviously we have responsibilities as members of NATO. So we deploy civilian experts like myself into NATO missions and like, to NATO hq, et cetera. I had very early on learned about this thing called the Icelandic Crisis Response Unit, which has a Completely different name now. Can't remember what it's called. But through that list that's kind of held or, like, centralized at the Icelandic Ministry for Foreign affairs, you could kind of apply to be on that list. You've got to have, like, certain qualifications. You do some training, like hostile environment awareness training, and then you get, like, to be on this. And so this is in 2018, I guess, and I get a request if I would be willing to go to Afghanistan to work as a strategic communications officer. And I remember, like, I pretended like I was, like, thinking about it, but I. But I immediately knew. I was like, yes, absolutely, I definitely want to do this. And so, yeah, in the summer of 2018, I went to Afghanistan, funnily enough, into an of four billet, which. Which is, in retrospect. So for those that don't know the billeting system of NATO, it's the equivalent of Lutheran colonel, which is what, 20, 25 years of military experience. And then I show up, like, 29, 30 years old, a female civilian from a country that has no cultural or no. I mean, that was my first time ever being around people in uniform.
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A
Wow. Wow. That is quite like. Talk about being dropped into the cold water.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Or the hot water or something.
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B
Exact. Funny. Like, now, when I look at my, like, my journals from that time, like, one of the first entry as I arrive in Kabul to be at Resolute Support is I write, like, everybody keeps saying ma' am to me, like, what is this place? Because I was obviously, like, working with so many people from the US Armed forces, and we don't have this culture in Iceland of, like, mamming people here, there, and everywhere. But, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a true opportunity. And. Yeah, and that's kind of how I, yeah, entered the world of NATO.
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A
Okay, so tell me what your days were like when you're on the ground. Were you in headquarters? Were you at one of the compounds outside other parts of the Green Zone? What would your days be like in the detail? What were you eating? What did it smell like? What was your day like? Walk us through what it was like in. See your shoes.
- [11:07]
B
Yeah. So first when I arrived, I remember the smell of, like, dry. Just. It's so dry. So I arrived. I think I landed in country August 1st or, like, so, like, basically at the very beginning of. Of August, and it's so dry in Kabul. It's 40 degrees Celsius. It's sunny all the time. Yeah. Yes. It's so hot. And I'd been traveling, obviously, for, like, 48 hours, and I arrive in this compound. So I was based at Resolute Support Headquarters, and everybody's saying, good morning, ma'. Am. How are you, ma'? Am? And, you know. And I'm like, okay, this is a bit. This is interesting. And all these people in uniform. But my days, actually a funny story that is just so. It's so cute. So I have to tell it. So I'd been in Afghanistan, like, for two weeks, and I was staying in this dorm. Like, a female dorm, of course, because everybody was living in these dorms. And I'm, like, desperately trying to make some female friends on the base. And I'm broke. Brushing my teeth in, like, this shared bathroom in my dormitory. And then this. There's this British officer from the Royal Air Force, and she's also brushing her teeth. And I'm like, she looks like she could be my friend. And then I go, hey, I. I like your costume. And she's like. And she just, like, spits out her toothbrushing, like, stuff. And she's like, it's the uniform, love. And I just go like, ah, okay, then.
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A
Yes.
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B
Can we be friends? And, like, wish then became. And she was like, obviously, like, a great, great company throughout that mission.
- [12:41]
A
That's hilarious.
- [12:43]
B
But, yeah. So what were my days like? So in the role of Strategic communications, so I was working directly under the director for Strategic communications, a fantastic US Colonel who was very understanding of the fact that I was new in the environment. Did not. Kind of took me, obviously, a little while to understand what STRATCOM is about, because it's so much about aligning and shaping the information space to match with what is happening on the ground and operationally. So my days would be about, you know, drafting, messaging, and doing a lot of, like, diplomacy behind the scenes, both getting people at NATO, like, at Resolute Support, to agree what is our desired end state? Like, what are we working towards? Obviously, I was supporting my colonel, who was also working directly under General Miller, another fantastic US Military leader that I really enjoyed working for. So they had to feed, like, playback. Yeah. So it's like aligning messaging not only for NATO, but also with the international missions that are on the ground, making sure that we're all speaking towards the same goal, like, the same end state, which at that time was a. The end. It was Taliban reconciliation. So this is in August 2018. Khalil Saad is about to arrive, and there's a lot of movement happening. A lot of talk about peace settlement or negotiations is starting to build up. And, yeah, so not only aligning messaging and narrative of NATO, the diplomatic, like other diplomatic missions, but also with the Afghan local community, because there was a need to build societal and diplomatic pressure. And you. I think at that, that time there was a big shift happening, which is in many ways led by my youth colonel who was pushing, like, we need to get everybody on board, and we need to engage more with the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Interior, because we all need to be singing the same song. So my days were spent on crafting messaging, speaking with the people at the mot, the moi, and a lot of Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Interior.
- [15:04]
A
I mean, but just to illustrate, to jump in here, there was a lot of people, there was a lot of groups, there's a lot of actors, there's a lot of countries. I mean, like, ordering a cup of coffee in that group is incredibly challenging, much less synchronizing the messages to inform reconciliation strategies in Afghanistan. So it's just to highlight that was a lot.
- [15:32]
B
There was a lot going on. And, yeah, so I worked with this US colonel, Colonel McNorton, and had some of his staff that obviously they were all, like, super experienced, like the people that have been working on strategic communications and information operations for, like, 20, 30 years. And at the time, there was also elections that were about to happen. So we worked a lot with the Independent Election Commission. And yeah, it was just a lot about, like, shaping the information environment and getting everybody to run towards this same end state, which was a negotiated settlement with the Taliban and Taliban reconciliation. And I remember, like, at the time, like Khalil said was arriving in September, I think, 2018, and I remember being like, wow, we're going to have peace. Like, it's around the door. Like, wow, like, what a. How privileged am I to be here during this point in time when this is, you know, happening and witnessing history from the inside of this mission. And then obviously, we all know how. What the situation is in Afghanistan today and how kind of how difficult and dire the situation is, especially for Afghan women.
- [16:45]
A
I think that is a point worth emphasizing. There was so many, myself included, when I worked on the Afghanistan file. We were all incredibly optimistic. And the Afghans are great people. They wanted more. And so just the heartbreak about how it actually, you know, shook out in the end and is. Is playing out now. It's hard to overstate how hard it is for some of us and how I think there's some who take a more cynical view. You know, we were just there to, you know, for. For our own reasons. But when it came to those of us actually working the account, we really did believe.
- [17:30]
B
Yeah, I think there was a lot of optimism and a lot of hope, and I think anybody who was in that mission at some point felt like a part of ownership or a part of, you know, part of this mission, which then came to that catastrophic end in August 2021. And I do think that all of us that were at some point involved in any kind of support evacuation, you know, like, every August, I'm okay, it's August. Like, okay, now it's three years, it's four years, et cetera. Because it's heartbreaking seeing your Afghan friends and colleagues that have supported the mission that we had in country, having to see them go through what they all went through in August 2021. You know, it's not an easy piece to swallow that. Yeah. That you were part of something that in the end, ended in the way that it did. And people that you worked so closely with, like, I still. I often say, oh, I can't believe we made our friends and allies go through that, because it was so. You know, it was so just catastrophic. Catastrophic. Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. One thing I think that's also interesting and kind of like tying back to our opening, like, being a female civilian working in that military space, is that you come in with a completely different idea because you're working with the armed forces. You're working with, like, the U.S. the U.K. the Danish army, et cetera, and then with the Afghan Ministry of Defense, and all of these actors that haven't have a hard security approach. And this is the first time that I was exposed to the idea of lethality, which, for an Icelander is, like, wild. Like, we have this innate national psyche of being like, no, we are, like, neutral. We are pacifists, and we don't like talking about killing people. But somehow I do think that that's actually something that was, like, touched me profoundly or changed the way that I approach these matters, because it's like, wow, like, in war, people die and the decisions lead to that, but it's like, it's part of this military campaign. So, yeah, it was definitely, like, a first for me as well, first of all, as a civilian from Iceland coming into that environment, but massively educative. And obviously, like, since we're talking about the evacuations, very. I think it's very. How can I phrase this? Like, flying into a country. Like, I was, you know, you. It's. It's so weird to think about that, like, what changed my career so drastically was that I had the privilege of deploying from the Icelandic MFA to Afghanistan, learn so much and feel that I was contributing to a larger mission and contributing towards this end state of Taliban reconciliation, learning about all of these different pressures that you can apply during such a campaign, like diplomacy, military, societal pressure, et cetera. And then at the end of it, I could take my beautiful bright blue Icelandic passport and leave, which obviously my fellow Afghan females or my Afghan colleagues couldn't. And I think that's also like something that's shaped me, especially leading up to the evacuations in 2021 and that end state, which was not our desired end state for sure.
- [21:13]
A
Damn. Well, I'm going to switch gears a bit. What brings you to the United States?
- [21:20]
B
So I now work as a committee director at the NATO Parliamentary assembly where I direct one committee, which is the Science and Technology Committee, which has everything to do with like, you know, security science and like deep tech and like AI hybrid threat, cyber critical entity infrastructure, et cetera. And then I have the Mediterranean and Middle East Special Group. So we gather our members, which are about 280 MPs or legislators from across the NATO alliance. We gather them all together twice a year, year. And this year we were all meeting up in Dayton, Ohio to mark the 30 years from the Dayton Peace Accords, where. So it's an opportunity to bring everybody together to kind of align across countries. And this year the US Was hosting, obviously because the, the Peace Accords were signed in Dayton and they felt that it was like a, appropriate to be there marking the occasion.
- [22:23]
A
I had the opportunity to attend as a speaker and I was really impressed by the assembly and the members and the conversations that were held over the course of the weekend. And it did feel like the timing couldn't be better in terms of, of helping members from around NATO see America outside of New York and Washington and Calvary, like getting into what we would call real America.
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, and thank you for coming and speaking on my committee. Yeah, I do think that it was a good timing. And also with the current shift in the alliance in terms of burden sharing, leadership and all of these things, I do think there's no, like, there's no time as important as bringing the legislators from across the alliance together. So these legislators, they sit in their own like their respective national assemblies, Senates, Congressmen, et cetera. And then. Yeah, and then they come together to kind of seek and receive information and get to engage with speakers like yourself on topics that are affecting the alliance. And it's really, it's like Truly important to. Yeah, to sync them together and for them to know one another across the alliance.
- [23:53]
A
Well, and that is something that, you know, it was certainly when I worked in executive branch in those spaces, I didn't really appreciate how important it is for members to take time with each other outside of capitals. Right. That so much learning, so much bipartisanship that we are all yearning for, across partisanship that we're yearning for. The foundations of that happen in environments like the NATO Parliamentary assembly where everybody's away from their desks, they're away from their constituents, they're with their peers and they can share lessons, they can have a beer, they can do whatever.
- [24:34]
B
Exactly. I couldn't agree more. And that's actually one of the things that of course one of our, my role as a director is to kind of shuffle information towards the parliamentarians, but also to take them on fact finding missions. So we do three active, like my committee does, three activities a year where we visit countries to learn about their defense and security policies and their priorities and challenges. And in those trips, also similarly to now in Dayton, it's, it's, you're really making friendships across countries and across the, the Atlantic as well, which is going to be fundamental if and when we find ourselves in a conflict or a increasingly challenging environment. Because in the end, these legislators are going to be the ones passing legislation on defense budget, on allocation of troops, on declaring a state of emergency. And they need to have the context with their peers in France or in the UK or in America. And that's kind of one of the main missions of the NATO Parliamentary assembly is to establish those relationship and, you know, make the platform for those connections to be built?
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A
Yeah, well. And so were there any particular outcomes or themes or ideas that happened at Dayton that caught your eye that you think are noteworthy?
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B
So of course, like there was a lot of interesting conversation that happened at committee level, but then we have a plenary at the end of the session where we finalize an adoption resolutions. And Marco, the Secretary General of NATO comes and engages with the parliamentarians. I think what is if I make two points out of all the, you know, the important policy or like the, you know, the, the pressure that's building up, it's continued support to Ukraine that is so important. And I know people are like, oh, it's always about Ukraine, but it is because it's always about Ukraine. It is about Ukraine and that we need to support Ukraine. We need to, you know, have lessons lear from what's happening in Ukraine. And yeah, we need to really, really continue supplying and supporting Ukraine. And then the shift in burden sharing. And this spring session comes just ahead of a month before the Hague summit where everybody is waiting to see what will be the new benchmark in terms of defense spending, of allies. You know, we, we're all familiar with the famous 2%, but are we pushing for 3? Are we pushing for 4? And that was a huge part of the conversation that was taking place in Dayton, Ohio this year.
- [27:28]
A
So with all of this in mind, do you think that your gender as a woman has had an impact on how you've approached the decisions that you take? And if so, why?
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B
If not one, not. First of all, I think, yes, I do think my gender makes a difference or it changes the way that I evaluate in the way I see the world. Because gender is such a defying, defining part of who we are. And I will have, if we would take exactly myself as a man, I just have different lived experiences because I'm a female working in a male dominated environment. And I, I do believe that all of our lived experiences, be it education, be it the places we live in and the people that we engage with, it does shape the way that we see the world, the way we evaluate things, the values that kind of come with us. So, yeah, absolutely, I think it does make a difference. I was trying to think of an example, but I couldn't find a concrete yes, that was an aha example. But I do think, yeah, because everything we do, it impacts our next step. And for me, being a girl from Iceland, it does, it does impact the way I see the world. And also, like, I've been talking so much to fellow females working in this space that are my age. Like, for example, the previous former minister of Iceland, she was the foreign minister and the defense minister. She's two weeks younger than me. Yeah, I know, I'm like, oh God, some, some people achieve and some say the background and, and then the thing is, like, our generation is becoming decision makers, we're becoming ministers, we're becoming policy people at high level. But we grew up in a world in the peace dividend, let's say, which was in my mind. Nobody will ever press or like, you know, you know, the, the age that, the era that I grew up in, nobody will ever press the red nuclear button. It's just out of this world. Like, why would you do something that, that brings mutual assured destruction? Nobody would ever in their right mind would invade another country. Nobody would like threaten sovereignty, et cetera. But now with the world that we live in, we See that actually, it's hardcore realism and strategic competition. And I think it's interesting that we now have a generation of policymakers and decision makers coming into the realm of foreign policy and security and defense that grew up in the peace dividend, even though obviously a side note there was the war, the Balkan wars. If we think about it in the European context, wars happened, the war on terror, et cetera.
- [30:15]
A
But it wasn't the Cold War. Again, as you said, mutually sure, destruction, nuclear deterrence. I mean, remember, the dominant discussion about nuclear weapons in the 90s was how we were going to get rid of them and nuclear threat reduction. And then in the 2000s, it became nuclear territory. Right.
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B
Everybody wants them.
- [30:36]
A
Right. And it's. We are in a fundamentally different geopolitical environment. And I think you're right. I mean, our generation has been trying to figure out what lessons we can learn from the past.
- [30:51]
B
Exactly.
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A
And because a lot of the things that our, our forebears grapple with, I mean, they, they grapple with it. Right. And the things that we are grappling with now, so trying to learn that, but bring new insights and bring our own perspectives to this game. Like, for example, having women at the table.
- [31:10]
B
Exactly. Exactly where we should all be.
- [31:12]
A
Right, well, so to close this out, what's your definition of power?
- [31:17]
B
That's a great question. For me, power is influencing or having the ability to influence decision making processes or outcomes. And I think that power comes through understanding the environment that you're working in, understanding the people that work in that environment. And that power comes with immense responsibility. And I do wonder if gender plays a role there because I see that as that power comes with the responsibility to do right and to do good.
- [31:54]
A
Brynja, thank you so much for joining us. It's been terrific to have this conversation with you.
- [31:59]
B
Thank you for having me on.
- [32:03]
A
Subscribe to the Smart Women, Smart Power podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to great content. Be sure to follow us on Twitter smartwomen or you can follow me on Twitter J.McInnes1 thanks for listening and join us next time.