Podcast Summary: Beyond the Spin: Truth, Media, and Democracy

Smart Women, Smart Power – CSIS
Date: December 11, 2024
Host: Dr. Kathleen McInnis
Guest: Nina Jankowicz, Founder of the American Sunlight Project

Overview

In this candid episode, Dr. Kathleen McInnis sits down with Nina Jankowicz to explore the realities of modern disinformation, its direct impact on democracy, and how gendered narratives are weaponized in online campaigns. Nina shares her trajectory from academic expert to government figurehead, the personal toll of public disinformation attacks, and how these experiences spurred her to found the American Sunlight Project, an initiative defending the truth and those who stand up for it.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Nina’s Path into Disinformation Research

(01:19–04:31)

• Nina describes her accidental path into the world of disinformation, rooted in her background as a Russian and East European studies scholar.
• She recounts her early work supporting democracy in Russia and Belarus and noticing how the internet was weaponized by Russia as early as 2012–2013.
• She discusses the West’s initial reluctance to engage directly with online falsehoods:

  "We were handing the narrative ground to the Russians when we and our partners were under attack." – Nina (02:08)

• Her time in Kyiv during the 2016 US election further highlighted the global nature of these threats and the West's need to learn from Central and Eastern European allies.

2. The Evolution from PR Problem to Strategic Threat

(04:31–06:13)

• Nina points out the moment she realized disinformation posed not just reputational damage but a fundamental strategic threat to democracies.
• She identifies 2013 as a turning point, emphasizing the West's overestimation of its own information literacy and institutional resilience.
• She frames the core issue as an "autocratic versus democratic struggle for the control of information." (05:40)

3. The Gendered Dimensions of Disinformation

(07:13–12:29)

• Nina details how Russia strategically targets women and marginalized groups with gendered disinformation, based on her research and conversations with women in Ukraine and Georgia.
• Tactics include "cheap fakes," sexualized smears, and manipulating societal biases against women.
• Russian state media dichotomizes women as either "saints" or "crazy," avoiding reporting on systemic abuses like domestic violence.
• She highlights pushback from other researchers but argues that "gender disinformation is a national security issue and should be understood through that lens." (11:27)
• Notable quote on resistance:

  "I literally got laughed at. Like, people did not understand it. Now I'm happy to say, four years later...gender and identity based dimensions of disinformation and information operations have been included in NATO's strategic priorities, which is a really exciting step." – Nina (11:46)

4. Russian Disinformation: Current State and Future Directions

(12:38–15:47)

• Nina assesses that Russia has largely achieved its objectives in the US, given current political dynamics favoring Russian interests.
• She predicts an increasing focus on undermining the EU, given its anticipated responsibility in supporting Ukraine.
• The success of Russian campaigns is reflected in their amplification by US politicians and media, showing the erosion of democratic resilience.

5. The American Sunlight Project: Origins and Purpose

(15:47–26:02)

• The idea for the American Sunlight Project was born from Nina’s personal ordeal during and after her brief tenure leading DHS’s Disinformation Governance Board in 2022.
• She describes the environment of harassment, media defamation (notably from Fox News), invasive threats, and lack of institutional support—while heavily pregnant.
• Notable Fox News attack:

  "Tucker Carlson said that I would have the power to send men with guns to the homes of Americans with whom I disagreed." (19:09)

• The personal impact included doxxing, the threat to her family, and feeling unsupported by the Biden administration.
• Nina’s resolve to enter the political and legal fight led her to sue Fox News for defamation and inspired the creation of the American Sunlight Project to defend other truth-tellers and researchers from coordinated disinformation and harassment.

6. The Human Side of Harassment and Fighting Back

(26:07–30:10)

• Nina underscores the importance of human connection for countering online abuse—sharing stories of reaching out empathetically even to her abusers, sometimes winning apologies.
• She credits her family and new motherhood as crucial to her perseverance:

  "I have a really great husband and a really good therapist. And, you know what, it's pretty flippant, but the other thing that got me through was having my baby." (26:43)

• The American Sunlight Project aims not only to track and expose bot networks and disinformation campaigns but also to foster direct, nonpartisan conversation and information literacy across American society.

7. Gender, Leadership, and the Cost of Courage

(30:10–33:52)

• Nina reflects on how her gender shaped both the intensity and nature of the attacks she faced, highlighting double standards (e.g., the outcry over her musical theater hobby or being pregnant).
• She laments how lack of institutional support sends a chilling message to other women and minorities considering public service.
• She remains driven to "hold [her] ground" for the next generation:

  "I want to make sure that I hold my ground for them so that it's easier for them in the future." (33:40)

8. Redefining Power and Women’s Leadership

(33:52–35:32)

• On power, Nina emphasizes empathy, responsibility, and nurture—qualities she believes are essential (and often feminized) for sustainable leadership.
• She draws parallels between leading a team and being a mother:

  "I want what's best for my team just as I want what's best for my son... It's seeing the whole earth." (34:35)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "We were handing the narrative ground to the Russians when we and our partners were under attack." – Nina (02:08)
• "At the heart of it, it's this autocratic versus democratic struggle for the control of information." – Nina (05:40)
• "There is a whole sector of disinformation that focuses specifically on marginalized communities...women especially.” – Nina (10:36)
• "Gender disinformation is a national security issue and should be understood through that lens. I literally got laughed at." – Nina (11:27)
• On Fox News' portrayal:
  "Tucker Carlson said that I would have the power to send men with guns to the homes of Americans with whom I disagreed." (19:09)
• “I just felt like somebody needed to stand up and say that when you are lying about people for profit and destroying their lives in the process, it is something that we should object to.” – Nina (23:55)
• "If I had been a white man...the backlash against me would have been extraordinarily different." – Nina (30:32)
• "Power is something that needs to be wielded very delicately. And delicate is such a feminine word, right?" – Nina (34:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment Description | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Nina’s entry into online disinformation | 01:19–04:31| | When disinformation became a strategic threat | 04:31–06:13| | Gendered disinformation and Russia’s playbook | 07:13–12:29| | Predictions on Russian disinfo post-2024 | 12:38–15:47| | Founding the American Sunlight Project | 15:47–26:02| | Surviving attacks & the importance of empathy | 26:07–30:10| | Gender and public backlash in leadership | 30:10–33:52| | Redefining power through women’s leadership | 33:52–35:32|

Conclusion

This episode offers a vivid, personal look at the cost of confronting disinformation in today’s political, media, and online environments—especially for women. Nina Jankowicz’s story is a testament to resilience, the necessity of institutional support, and the critical role of gender both in the deployment of disinformation and in leading the fight against it. The American Sunlight Project emerges as a beacon for those resisting coordinated abuse and for rebuilding the foundations of truth and democracy.