Humans in Low Orbit: A Conversation with Astronaut Dr. Peggy Whitson

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Smart Women, Smart Power

Episode: Humans in Low Orbit: A Conversation with Astronaut Dr. Peggy Whitson
Host: Emily Harding (CSIS)
Guest: Dr. Peggy Whitson, Astronaut and Director of Human Spaceflight at Axiom Space
Date: October 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid conversation between Emily Harding of CSIS and Dr. Peggy Whitson, America’s most experienced astronaut. They discuss Whitson’s most recent space mission, scientific advancements in low earth orbit (LEO), the evolution of space stations, team-building in extreme environments, mentorship, and the future of commercial space exploration. Whitson shares stories of leadership, international cooperation, and personal perseverance—illustrating the broadening accessibility and potential of human spaceflight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Axiom 4 Mission & International Collaboration

• Mission Overview:

  • The Axiom 4 mission was the fourth private astronaut mission by Axiom Space, notable for including astronauts from Hungary, Poland, and India—marking their countries' first spaceflight participation in 40+ years ([01:37]).
  • Quote:

    "One of the goals of Axiom Space is to open up access to more and more countries, to the ISS and to space flight in general." — Peggy Whitson [02:23]

• Scientific Accomplishments:

  • Record number of experiments performed during the 20-day mission.
  • Focus on team-building with a diverse, international crew.

2. Groundbreaking Research in Space

• Cancer Cell Growth Studies:

  • Cancer cells, specifically breast cancer and glioma brain tumors, replicate faster in microgravity, which allows for accelerated drug testing ([03:12]–[04:41]).
  • Promising results led to the drugs advancing to human trials.
  • Quote:

    "The new drug was extremely effective against the glioma cell growth. And so we were really excited about the cancer studies..." — Peggy Whitson [04:24]

• Enabling Diabetics for Spaceflight:

  • Tested a continuous glucose monitoring system that could safely enable people with diabetes to fly in space ([04:43]–[05:34]).

• Space as a Biological Accelerator:

  • Noted that microgravity increases the replication rate and virulence of some bacteria, opening avenues for new treatments and vaccines ([05:39]–[06:26]).

3. Evolving Space Station Design & Astronaut Life

• Axiom Station Upgrades:

  • Crew quarters are designed with Earth-facing windows for morale and psychological comfort ([06:57]).
  • Expanded cupola for immersive Earth views—"like doing a spacewalk without the suit" ([07:17]).
  • Quote:

    "It'll be like doing a spacewalk without having to get into a spacesuit." — Peggy Whitson [07:17]

• Nutrition & Morale:

  • Dehydrated foods and military-style rations (lower salt to reduce bone loss).
  • Growing fresh food onboard is both a morale booster and a future necessity ([07:59]–[09:51]).

4. Physical Challenges in Microgravity

• Bone Density & Exercise:

  • Without exercise, astronauts lose 1% of bone mass per month in space ([07:59]).
  • Heavy focus on resistive and cardiovascular exercise—over an hour and 45 minutes daily ([10:26]).
  • Quote:

    "You’re highly motivated to exercise to prevent that bone loss." — Peggy Whitson [08:17]

• Fitness Upon Return:

  • Adjusting to gravity post-return is physically jarring—"gravity sucks" ([10:01]).

5. Spacesuit Design and Human Factors

• Challenges in Suit Design:
  • Suits must fit a range of body types and allow access to controls, which is arduous in bulky gear ([11:46]–[12:53]).
  • Whitson helps design the new Axiom suits for lunar and orbital missions ([11:46]).
  • Quote:

    "Developing a space suit is actually not trivial at all...making sure everything works for everybody." — Peggy Whitson [12:42]

6. Leadership, Team-Building, and Preparation

• Extreme Preparation:

  • Astronauts rehearse every move, check every tool, and anticipate every scenario before spacewalks ([13:19]).
  • Emphasizes translating this thorough preparation to other high-stakes areas of life ([13:46]).
  • Quote:

    "Being overly prepared gives you an edge against the unexpected." — Emily Harding [13:19]

• Team Dynamics in Space:

  • Building trust and cohesion with international, first-time crew members was central to mission success ([01:37], [02:23]).

7. The “Overview Effect” and Perspective

• Earth as Spaceship:
  • Viewing Earth from space reshapes perspective—leads to a sense of shared destiny and responsibility ([16:10]–[17:01]).
  • Quote:

    "That perspective of our home makes me think of it as spaceship Earth." — Peggy Whitson [16:10]
    "When you leave the planet, the whole planet becomes home." — Peggy Whitson [17:01]

8. Commercial Space & What’s Next

• Axiom Station Development:
  • Modular station plans—with first modules attaching to ISS, and eventually supporting up to eight crew ([19:57]–[22:07]).
  • Ensuring seamless transition before ISS decommissioning to maintain continuous human presence in space.
  • Commercial stations will facilitate partnerships, research, and manufacturing beyond the constraints faced by intergovernmental organizations ([22:30]).
  • Quote:

    "I think commercial space is going to take us in new places and new ways." — Peggy Whitson [21:09]

9. Inspiration, Mentorship, and Perseverance

• Origins of a Dream:

  • Childhood inspiration from Star Trek and witnessing Apollo moon landing ([23:56]–[24:16]).
  • Father’s influence and first flight experience kept the dream alive ([24:17]).
  • Shift from aspiration to concrete goal after seeing NASA’s first female astronaut class ([24:28]).

• Perseverance & Lessons Learned:

  • Rejected by NASA multiple times over ten years; each rejection strengthened resolve and provided invaluable leadership experience ([25:30]–[27:24]).
  • Quote:

    "It was only in my wisdom nowadays that I can look back and say that those 10 years were probably the most important years of my life..." — Peggy Whitson [25:30]

• Mentors and Advice:

  • Female mentors were pivotal in opening doors and building confidence ([28:43]).
  • Importance of learning from both support and discouragement from others—“only you know what’s right for you” ([29:07], [30:40]).
  • Quote:

    "I wish I’d remembered his name and phone number. I could have called him from space." — Peggy Whitson, joking about advice to avoid NASA [30:25]

• Mentoring Others:

  • Guides new astronauts on what’s truly important to worry about; focus on prioritization ([30:55]).
  • Recommends: set your vision, be open, and let opportunities unfold ([32:25]).

• Signature Keepsake:

  • Whitson wears the necklace from her wedding day on all missions—"695 days in space with you the whole time" ([32:54]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On international crew inclusion:

  “It was the first time their countries had flown in space in more than 40 years. … Our goal was to project that space is for everyone.” — Peggy Whitson [02:12], [18:13]

• On leadership:

  “The training is what enables it. … when any situations where there’s a little more risk involved, I think it’s important to have that training, that practice, that knowledge.” — Peggy Whitson [13:46]

• On the view from space:

  “One of the assignments I give to my crewmates is … you’ve got to go spend 90 minutes and go around the world.” — Peggy Whitson [15:18]
  “I really love that perspective that it gives you.” — Peggy Whitson [16:32]

• On perseverance:

  “Every two years when they rejected me … I had a husband who was incredibly supportive... But it just felt like that's what I should do.” — Peggy Whitson [27:54]
  "Only you know what’s right to do." — Peggy Whitson [28:35]

• On paying it forward:

  “Being able to prioritize, this is something you should worry about. This one, you’ll be okay. … That is a gift that I try and give them.” — Peggy Whitson [32:18]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:37] — Axiom 4 mission overview and country participation
• [03:12] — Groundbreaking cancer cell research in orbit
• [04:43] — Advances to allow diabetics to fly in space
• [06:57] — Axiom Station design: Earth-facing windows and cupola
• [07:59] — The realities of astronaut food and morale
• [10:26] — Exercise routines and bone mass preservation
• [11:46] — Spacesuit design and challenges for smaller astronauts
• [13:19] — Extreme preparation for the unexpected in space
• [16:10] — The “Spaceship Earth” perspective
• [19:57] — Building Axiom Station and the future of commercial space
• [23:56] — Dr. Whitson’s childhood inspiration and career journey
• [25:30] — Perseverance through repeated NASA rejections
• [30:25] — Defying discouragement and following one’s own path
• [32:18] — Lessons in mentorship and prioritization
• [32:54] — Whitson’s wedding necklace and homecoming tradition

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Tone and Style

• Warm, personal, and candid throughout—with Whitson displaying both humility and humor.
• Technical details are balanced with accessible storytelling, making the episode engaging for all listeners.
• Interactions are friendly, with both interviewer and guest sharing laughter and deep insights.

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This episode offers not only a window into the cutting edge of commercial spaceflight, but conveys the enduring value of perseverance, preparation, and widening the circle of those who reach for the stars. Dr. Whitson’s experiences and perspective make "Humans in Low Orbit" a must-listen for anyone passionate about innovation, leadership, or the future of humanity in space.

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Transcript

[A]

Sa.

[B]

695 days in space. Imagine spending nearly two full years in a vacuum where a bad day could be life threatening and a really bad day likely means an international tragedy. Our guest today has been there, lived there, led teams there. She's joining us today to talk about the future of spaceflight, leadership on the edge of survival, and why she just keeps heading for the stars. I'm Emily Harding, the Vice president of the Defense and Security Department here at csis. I'm your guest host. I have also led teams through intense moments in tiny metal boxes. But those were skiffs, not the space station. Looking forward to living that life through your eyes today. Dr. Peggy Whitson is America's most experienced astronaut. She holds the record for the longest cumulative time in space by an American astronaut and any woman astronaut in the world. She now works with Axiom Space, an American company leading the frontier of commercial space exploration. And her most recent mission was this past summer. So welcome home. Thanks so much for being here.

[A]

Oh, it's great to be here.

[B]

So welcome back. What was this last tour around the Earth about? What was the mission?

[A]

Oh, we were. It was the Axiom 4 mission. It was the fourth private astronaut mission. And I'm really proud of Axiom Space. We're the only company that's done four missions in four years to the iss. So missions that involve doing a lot of scientific research. But the thing that was exciting on mine, I had three different countries, Hungary, Poland, India with me represented on the mission. And it was the first time their countries had flown in space in more than 40 years. Wow. And so it was a long time since anyone had gone to space, but this was their first time being on the iss. The international relationships on the ISS were created many, many years ago, and so it has limited somewhat. New partnerships coming in. And one of the goals of Axiom Space is to open up access to more and more countries, to the ISS and to space flight in general. And so we were very excited about that mission. We got the record number of experiments done in a 20 day mission. Oh my gosh. And so we were very happy and pleased with the results. And I had a great team. The team was amazing and I like building teams, so. So it was really fun for me to see that. I. I'll pat myself on the back on that one. That, you know, I made them into an amazing group of guys, I'm sure.

[B]

And you're an old hand to this, right? You've done this so many times. I'm sure they felt very confident with you at the helm, Any of your experiments really stand out, that you were like, oh, I can't believe we accomplished that?

[A]

Oh, well, I got two that were pretty special to me. One was we were looking at breast cancer cell growth. It replicates much faster in orbit. Really? Yes. And so it's a great test bed for drugs because you can test a new drug in a very short period of time until whether it's effective at stopping cancer replication. And so on the Axiom 2 mission, which I also commanded, we had done one of the initial projects on that. And this was using real test tissue from a patient on the ground and testing two different drugs. One that we had tested and found very effective in Axime 2, but a new spinoff drug from that. Both were very effective at stopping the cancer growth. And we also had a glioma brain tumor sample that we were growing. And those are very hard to stop replicating. If somebody gets a glioma, typically they're going to pass away within a year to 18 months. And so those. And the second, the new drug was extremely effective against the glioma cell growth. And so we were really excited about the cancer studies that we did and looking forward to the fact that they're putting the drugs into human trials and part of the space data and the research has promoted getting them into human trials sooner.

[B]

That is so cool. And your background is in biology too.

[A]

So this is biochemists, biochemistry. So it's totally up my wheelhouse. So I really like it. Another really cool one that we're doing, Axiom is looking to open up space to more and more people. One of the disqualifying characteristics, if you have diabetes, you aren't allowed to fly in space because we don't know how the. The physiology changes in your body dramatically. And so I was testing out hardware that to send, you know, your. Your actual blood glucose measurements to your cell phone to so you could get the data that was also sent to another crew member's cell phone so they could get the data. If it alarmed and went off scale, somebody else on board would have the data. And it also went to the ground, to the surgeon on the ground.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So we were testing the full loop to make sure that it would be safe to fly somebody with diabetes in space. And so. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That's weird.

[A]

Yeah. So I was very excited about both of those investigations.

[B]

Yeah. That's tremendous. Wow. Do you have any idea why cancer cells would replicate faster in space? It's strange.

[A]

We've seen some types of bacteria also replicate faster which actually one of the studies we did in the ISS timeframe was looking at botulism, the E. Coli that causes botulism, and it replicates much faster and it's much more virulent, so it's actually more hazardous, so it's easier to make antibodies against it. And so that also went into human trials many years ago. But potentially you could come up with a vaccine to prevent botulism.

[B]

Wow. I mean, listeners, if you could see my face, I'm making all kinds of what faces right now. It's amazing. So health very important for astronauts, period. Now that you're saying these things, I'm worried about health in an extra sense. Right. If these things could be much more virulent in space. You've worked on building the International Space Station. Now, what I understand is that Axiom is building a commercial space station. I have to ask the, the very, you know, basic human question. Are you adding anything to the Axiom Station that you were like, I really wish we had this on the iss and I'm going to make this one better.

[A]

The coolest thing is we're putting windows in the crew sleep station area. So that'll be sweet. And they all face the Earth, so you'll be able to look down at the Earth from your sleep station.

[B]

Oh, that's.

[A]

So that room with a view, right? Yes, absolutely. So that'll be special.

[B]

Any other, like, creature comforts or morale boosters you're building in?

[A]

Oh, the cupola itself is probably three times the size of the one that's on the International Space Station. You'll actually be able to go all the way in. It'll be like doing a spacewalk without having to get into a spacesuit. You're going to be out in space, going through space. It's going to be an amazing view. It's huge.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, I can't wait to see the pictures. I have heard that submarines have the best food in the Navy because food is such a morale issue when you're stuck in a metal can under the sea. I'm assuming that the same is true for work in space, but it's harder to get food up there. So, like, what kinds of things do you do to keep morale high to have the good food on hand that you're really going to want?

[A]

Yeah, it's actually really challenging to get because a lot of it's dehydrated. So about half of it, it's add water and. Which works great for macaroni and cheese or, you know, rice. Cheese. Yeah. No, no. Yeah, there's things it works well for vegetables, not so much. But there are also. We have the MREs, the kind of like military rations, except they're specially designed at NASA with lower salt because higher salt causes you to lose more bone mass even more quickly. And in space we lose bone mass at a very high rate. An osteopenic woman here on the ground would lose about 1% a year in space, if we didn't exercise, we would lose 1% a month. So you're highly motivated to exercise to prevent that bone loss. But we also have to try and minimize the effects of high salt in the food. And so we've taken a lot of the salt out, which means it's all about the sauce because you have to have good sauce or it gets boring. But food is important because it's one of the few things you have a choice about. You know, you have a very highly scheduled timeline day and you have to. You're racing with the red line to try and keep up and get all your tasks done in the day. And food is the one thing you have a choice on. So it is very important. I think one of the coolest things, experiments. Being a farm kid, I liked plants and so I being able to grow the lettuce or some other items, you know, that we could actually eat on orbit. Usually you had to harvest once for the science and then they let you harvest for eating and then they harvest again for the snack.

[B]

Don't eat the experiments, not until they.

[A]

Tell you you can. So but I mean being able to have fresh food like that and options like that in the future I think is going to be really important.

[B]

Yeah, I could just picture the look on somebody's face. I brought this all the way to space and then you ate it. It's. That's not what was supposed to happen. The osteoporosis thing is interesting. You said in one of your posts on X that when you come back down from a long time, you don't think about all the tiny little muscles in your ankles and your knees until you're suddenly back in gravity. I think you actually said gravity sucks. So how do you stay fit in space? How do you prepare for that re entry?

[A]

So for long duration missions as a NASA astronaut, I exercised about an hour 45 minutes a day on cardiovascular cycle ergometer or a treadmill. Treadmill is just an exercise in pain from, from my opinion, but I mean same. I agree. But I enjoyed the resistive exercise device. It's a very fancy system that's isolated from the station structure so you don't screw up all those experiments that we're doing that, you know, you're not causing vibrations throughout the station that would disturb those experiments. And it really feels like you're lifting weights and you can do deadlifts and squats and bench press, and so your big muscles are strong come back, but you don't have. Have to balance while you're doing those squats and deadlifts and everything. And then you get home and it's like, ugh, everything's wobbly.

[B]

Yeah. Not the time to hike up a mountain. You were just at extreme altitude, but not the time to start walking on a rocky back. Oh, that's so fascinating. You also had a post about spacesuits and testing everything to be sure that you can reach the controls when you're wearing a spacesuit. I can imagine that it would be so hard with the gloves that you have on to do any kind of fine motor movement. So, like, what are the special challenges? Invol mat.

[A]

Yeah, so it's the. Developing a space soup is actually not trivial at all. You know, the being able to fit multiple people inside a suit and being able to size a suit to fit you. Exactly. Is very challenging. And that's why I enjoyed working with the Axiom engineers who are building the station, the suit that will be used on our future station, but also on the lunar surface for the Artemis mission. It's exciting to be a part of that. So that post was about a study. We were looking at the lander out at SpaceX and figuring out, can the crew reach these interfaces that were expected to reach inside this chamber? That would be the airlock, and then in the elevator that would go down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that would suck.

[B]

Be in the elevator and be like, wait a minute, I can't.

[A]

I can't reach the button.

[B]

Well, it was very unsafe.

[A]

Yeah, it was a lot of, like, some of the interfaces the crew had to reach were too high for a short person like me.

[B]

So you can't get your arm up over your head, I'm guessing.

[A]

Yeah, not very easily. It takes a huge amount of energy. And to try and manipulate something while you're doing that at the same time is very challenging. So, you know, we made recommendations about how to change things to make it work for, you know, we had a tall person and myself, and so we kind of made that work for both of us. And that's part of making sure everything works for everybody.

[B]

And that actually fits with another thing that you said, which Was that astronauts spent hours upon hours rehearsing every move, checking every tool, exploring every possible scenario of a spacewalk. Because microgravity has a knack for rewriting the rules. Being overly prepared gives you an edge against the unexpected. So I'm curious, you know, that that makes all the sense in the world. If you're in an environment that is so unforgiving, do you apply that in other aspects of your life as well?

[A]

Well, I think the, the thing about, you know, people talk about going to space and how challenging that is. The training is what enables it. And, and I think of that in, in my real life, you know, where is it that I might need to practice something or do something more than once to be well prepared to, to do a certain activity? Of course, you know, a lot of stuff I do, I just like, oh, I'm winging it. You know, I'm. Because I, I'm here on Earth, I'm safe, you know, winging. But when any situations where there's a little more risk involved, I think it's important to have that training, that practice, that knowledge, I think makes you more confident, but also more capable as well.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Wing it on Earth, not in space. That's the takeaway line here. So you've been up to space many times, and I'm assuming that this last tour you're not thinking is going to be your last, but is there something that you do as you're thinking about reentry where you take one last look out a window or you think to yourself, like, this is my routine that I'm going to do before I come back to Earth, just to remember what this is like?

[A]

Well, I think on my last NASA mission, I assumed it was my last mission. And I spent that nine and a half months onboard the space station really just trying to absorb every second of. Was important to me to feel like I could take in as much as possible.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure. Do you ever get sick of the view?

[A]

Never. No. No, I do not. And one of the assignments I give to my crewmates is, you know, you've got to go spend 90 minutes and go around the world.

[B]

Oh, that's true. You could just sit there and look out the window and watch the whole world go by in 90 minutes.

[A]

Yes. Wow.

[B]

I mean, people talk about that, the, the little blue dot, right? And like, it seems so small when you're up above it.

[A]

We're still close enough where it's actually pretty much fills a lot of your view. But it, it is a very special Perspective that you gain from being in space. You know, you. You look down at this planet, and it's. We're trying to replicate up everything up there in space, you know, trying to replicate the life support systems, the stabilization, the protection against radiation. All that stuff is provided on that place below our. Our home. And that perspective of our home makes me think of it as spaceship Earth.

[B]

Spaceship.

[A]

That's right, because we're all sharing the same atmosphere, we're all sharing the same radiation protection. And I think it gives you that perspective that, you know, we ought to get along a little bit better because we're all on the same ship together.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Just like building a team in space. It's a slightly bigger team on Earth, but that's okay. Yeah, we got to take care of it.

[A]

But I really love that perspective that it gives you. I think, you know, growing up in rural Iowa, my home was, you know, just my house, my family. And then, you know, you go to school, and it becomes a little bit bigger world. And then, you know, go to college in a different state, you know, and it comes even bigger. Leave the country, and the whole country becomes home. And when you leave the planet, the whole planet, it becomes home.

[B]

The whole planet becomes home. Yes. That's so wonderful. Well, not to take us out of this wonderful tour, but I want to talk a little bit about what you're working on right now, because it is so cool. We're doing a new segment on smart women, smart power, called what's on youn Desk? So, for example, right now, I have on my desk a stack of business cards from a conference I just attended in Austin, a copy of our new report on the future of cyber war, and a Captain America bobblehead doll, which was a gift during our last Secret Santa. And I just love it. It makes me happy every time I.

[A]

Tap its little head.

[B]

The biggest pressing issue on my desk is a project we're calling no Front Lines about how companies are increasingly finding themselves in the middle of conflict. So that's my desk. You are doing a very cool thing with commercial space right now. So what's on your desk? What are your pressing issues right now?

[A]

Well, I recently just moved, so my desk, relatively clean.

[B]

Isn't that nice? We need a clean space. Be like, oh, yeah, someone messy, yet.

[A]

There'S still a lot of things in boxes. But one of the things that's on my desk. Oh, look at this, is the patch from the Axiom 4 mission. This was the three crew members I mentioned before from Hungary, India, and Poland. And Myself and the tagline for the mission was realizing the return. But our, our goal was to project the spaces for everyone. That's why we had the Earth there in. In a shape of a gem. Yeah, right inside that shape of a gem.

[B]

So for our listeners who can't see the patch, it's got space station and then it's got most of the world shown with the space. It's the shape of a gem, as you're saying. Because it's our gem. Yeah. And I'm not going to attempt to pronounce your team members names, but if you will, that will be amazing.

[A]

Shubanshu Shukla from India, Tibor Kapu from Hungary and Slavosz Uznanski from Poland.

[B]

That's amazing. Anybody have any fun nicknames?

[A]

Yeah, they have Shooks instead of Shukla. Tiborg was Tibby. That's a short name for Tibor. And Suave is the nickname for Suave.

[B]

Yeah, we're spending a lot of time together. You know, you're gonna get pretty close and come up with some nicknames. That's so great. Okay, well, thank you. So as far as what Axiom is working on right now, tell me a little bit about that.

[A]

That. Yeah, so it's the. In the move. I have a lot of other things that I've been working on, but I really love working on the spacesuit. Helping them design and develop this lunar suit that's going to go be. You know, our NASA astronauts are going to wear that when they step back on the surface of the moon. So I'm really excited about that. So exciting. And you know, participated in doing some test runs for the Artemis eva. So, you know, putting the flag up and everything.

[B]

So it's the images of you at the bottom of the pool in the spacesuit. At the bottom of the pool.

[A]

I didn't do that one in the bottom of the pool. I was doing it in the load alleviated laboratory. Oh yeah. So to offload to make it like approximately 1 6G. Yeah. Since it's pretty heavy otherwise. Right. But the other thing is I work with the engineers on Axiom Station. So Axiom Station, the first module will go up and attach to the issuance and be there from, you know, six months. Ish. We haven't determined exactly how long it'll be there, but then the second module will go up and we'll unbirth from the space station and docs 2 this the second module. And from that point on we will be capable of permanent human presence for a four person crew. And then we're adding on additional habs. So eventually it'll be eight person crew. So I'm really excited about Axiom Station. I was drawn to Axiom Space because I'd spent 22 years being a NASA astronaut and I really was excited about the idea of transitioning to manufacturing. I think commercial space is going to take us in new places and new ways. And we've seen that already with different avenues that you can see so many new companies coming up in commercial space. And I think that's so important because we, we need to help build that infrastructure in space. And I think Axiom Space is going to play a really critical role because of that continuous human presence. So basically we will be, before ISS is decommissioned, we will have capability continue that human presence in space, which I think is so important for us as a country to be leaders in the technology, to be leaders in bringing in these international relationships like we've built through the private astronaut missions and our other cooperations with even more countries who are sending up scientific experiments or commercial industry in the future to do manufacturing. So I'm super excited about the change and the capabilities that Axiom Station will provide to us.

[B]

So my colleagues, Carrie Bingen and Clayton Swoke. Clayton's of course, interviewing you later today at an event. They've been doing a lot of really great work on the shift to commercial space and what you can, can do in commercial space now that you never would have thought of before. I mean, once upon a time this was a game only for governments and not just any government, but big governments who were willing to put a lot of money into it. And now companies like yours are revolutionizing the game.

[A]

Well, and I think it's going to take that. I mean, you know, as a government entity, they can't make money, so they can't really get delve too much into that research and manufacturing aspect of actually using space as a tool. It's a great investigation tool that, you know, I had the pleasure of doing some amazing experiments on board the International Space Station. But I'm excited about this new transition going, changing and making it a little bit more commercial. You know, we'll still have the opportunities to fly astronauts from all different countries and experiments and investigations from universities from all over the world. So it's really going to open up space in a way that even the International Space Station didn't do because it was limited by some of the early agreements and the MoUs between different governments made 40 years ago, 30 years ago, you know, so it was constrained by Some of those early agreements, and we have an opportunity to really open that up.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it's so exciting. So one of the things that we take on as a mission here with smart women, smart power, is mentorship. So bringing along the next generation. You grew up on a farm in Iowa, as you mentioned, and you've said before that you became an astronaut or you wanted to become an astronaut after you watched the first moon landing on television as a child. What was that moment like for you?

[A]

You know, I was a bit of a Trekkie before that. Yeah, you know, I, I liked Star Trek and I thought, you know, hey, in an ideal world I'd be, you know, part Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I thought that'd be like the perfect, you know, astronaut. But when I saw him walk on the moon, it was like, hey, this is real.

[B]

This is real.

[A]

Yeah, this is real life. This isn't a fictional show. And so it, you know, really inspired me. And even as a nine year old, I felt like it was significant, you know, this, you know, this moment of exploration. So I thought, cool job. Cool, yes, very cool job. I would like to be an astronaut. So that was my dream, to become an astronaut. The following year, my father got his private pilot's license and I got to get in a Cessna 150 and take my first flight above the planet. And, you know, I think that kept the dream alive for me a bit. But it wasn't until I graduated from high school that NASA picked the first female astronauts. And all I'd had to go on before that was, you know, Encyclopedia Britannica because we didn't have, you know, the Internet, so I had limited knowledge on how to ever become an astronaut. But I think that year that I graduated high school, it became a goal of mine. Yeah, I'm like. And one of them, Shannon Lucid, was a biochemist and I was interested in biology and chemistry. And I was like, maybe I really can do this. And so from that point on, it became a goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it did take, you know, NASA wasn't as quick to agree with me that I should be an astronaut. I worked at NASA for 10 years and applied multiple times over those 10 years before I was finally accepted to be an astronaut. It was only in my wisdom nowadays that I can look back and say that those 10 years were probably the most important years of my life in terms of, you know, going through all those rejections wasn't fun, but the things I was learning were critical. I was doing international negotiations with the Russians on a joint science program that we were trying to do together. I was developing teams in Russia to set up science laboratories and bring in investigators to do baseline data collection on the crew members there and in the US So we'd have consistent data sets.

[B]

What year was that that you were doing all this diplomacy with the Russians?

[A]

Started when it was the USSR, right? Yeah, 1989.

[B]

Yeah. So such an important moment for international collaboration too. I mean, I'm sure for you, you ran it for the science, but for the rest of us, we were looking for this as a way to maintain peace.

[A]

Yes. And so. And during that time frame, I learned a lot about leadership, I learned a lot about international partnerships, all of which turned out to be pretty critical for my job. And I think it enabled me so much more as an astronaut. If I had been selected when I wanted to be selected, you know, I would have not had the qualifications to become the first female commander on the ISS or be selected as the first female chief of the Astronaut office. Those just wouldn't have been options because I wouldn't have had the correct leadership experience and then NASA experience.

[B]

Isn't that funny how that worked out? I mean, so many things that I thought I wanted later on, it turned out like, no, this was exactly the right path. There, there was a plan here that I just didn't understand. It's absolutely fine. Yeah. So on the note of those setbacks, we won't call them failures, we'll call them setbacks. We learn from failures. We learn from setbacks. Your tagline on X is do your best, be positive and dream big. Did you hit those moments where you thought that this dream was never going to happen and it was just impossible? And how did you push that?

[A]

Every two years when they rejected me, luckily I had a husband who was incred, incredibly supportive, made me, you know, confident to keep trying and believing in myself. I think that was, you know, important to have that nice stability. But it was, it, you know, it just felt like that's what I should be, that's what I should do. And so, and I always tell young people that, you know, only you know what's right to do. Lots of people might tell you what to do, but only you'll know what's right for you. And I think making that, that decision based on what your heart says is right is important.

[B]

Oh, yes. So have you had a mentor who significantly impacted the way that you approach obstacles like that?

[A]

I've had been lucky to have a lot of mentors, female mentors in maybe some Areas where you wouldn't necessarily have expected it. I had two female mentors when I first got to NASA, that really helped open doors for me and sent me to Russia. And I'm like, I'm from Iowa. I don't know anything about negotiation.

[B]

Similarities.

[A]

Like, you know, I had no idea I could do this job. And they opened up doors that I would have never dreamed of even trying to open up. And so it's. It's great to have had those people along the way. And it's. It was really important, I think, to, you know, have people tell me I was doing the wrong thing, because it made me sure in what my choices. You know, I had Dr. James Van Allen tell me, you know, he was. Before the shuttle program started. And I met. Had the opportunity to meet him, you know, Van Allen of the Van Allen radiation belts. And I told him I wanted to be an astronaut. He's like, oh, that whole astronaut thing's a flash in the pan. You should do something else. Be an engineer, astronomer, you know, do something else. And I later, I was trying to get a postdoctoral fellowship after I got my PhD and a very prestigious investigator at the Salk Institute told me after I rejected him to take a postdoctoral fellowship at NASA Johnson Space Center. He said, you're making the biggest mistake of your life.

[B]

Am I, though? Am I?

[A]

Yeah. I wish I'd remembered his name and phone number. I could have called him from space.

[B]

You told him?

[A]

Not so much.

[B]

That is phenomenal. Yes. Oh. See, even very smart people can be very, very wrong sometimes, especially when it's telling you what you're supposed to do.

[A]

That's why I was like, you have to decide what's right for you.

[B]

And I'm sure you have. I'm sure you're paying that forward. You know, you've got mentees, too. They come to you and ask you, I'm sure, tons of questions. What's the common question that your mentees always come to you and ask? Ask.

[A]

Well, I think I worked a lot with one particular class of astronauts, the eight Balls. They were one class that I helped select. And then I was in a position to be their mentor after they came into the office. And I think that group of people came to me a lot. In particular, there were four women in that group. And some of them a little bit on the smaller side in order to be successful in the spacesuit, they wanted all my advice. So sometimes they would ask me questions, and I'm like, I'd have to go get in the suit the next time and figure out, okay, this is what I've been doing for the last 15 years. I don't remember how I did it, but I managed to do it. But more recently with Axiom Space, I'm training rookies to go into space. And the fun part for me is, you know, being able to share with them what's important to worry about. Because on my first flight, you know, you want to worry about everything. You want to know everything perfectly, and there's just too much you can't. And so you don't know how to prioritize. And so being able to prioritize, this is something you should worry about. This one, you'll be okay. This one, what you know is fine, but, you know, to help prioritize where to worry and where to focus their efforts, I think has really been something that is a gift that I try and give them.

[B]

Yeah, actually, I mean, my mentees asked me very similar questions. Not about what to worry about in space, but what should I worry about when I'm doing my job search? And the. The best advice that I give most people is that, look, just let it happen. Go with the flow. Be open to new opportunities. Have a vision for where you want to go, but be flexible about the way that you get there. Absolutely.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

You know, life. Life is long. Embrace it. Speaking of which, is this the necklace that you got on your wedding day and that you always wear to space? Oh, it's so cool.

[A]

600, 695 days in space with you the whole time.

[B]

It's so beautiful. Well, thank you so much for taking an extra hour to come and hang out with us here on Smart Women, Smart Power. I know. You know, I walk away from this conversation inspired. There's something about space, isn't there? There's something about space.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[A]

Well, thank you very much.

[B]

Thanks for listening to smart Women, Smart Power. Please subscribe wherever you listen. For more information, head to www.csis.org until next time.