Smart Women, Smart Power – "Putin's Next Soldiers: Ukrainian Children"

Date: May 29, 2025
Host: CSIS | Center for Strategic and International Studies
Featured Guest: Oleksandra Matviychuk, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, Head of the Center for Civil Liberties
Host: Dr. Kathleen McInnes

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the ongoing efforts to document and counter Russian war crimes in Ukraine, focusing on the widespread and systematic campaign against Ukrainian children. Nobel Peace Prize winner Oleksandra Matviychuk brings an urgent voice, sharing harrowing insights on forced deportations, the erasure of Ukrainian identity, the militarization of children, and the global stakes of the war. The conversation offers a deep look into the psychological warfare waged by Russia, the resilience of Ukrainians, and the broader significance for democracy and human rights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Oleksandra’s Path to Human Rights Advocacy

• Inspiration from Soviet Dissidents
  • As a schoolgirl, Oleksandra was inspired by meeting Soviet-era dissidents, especially Yevhen Sverstiuk, philosopher and former political prisoner.
  • Notable Quote: “People who say what they think and do what they say… stood up their voice again the entire totalitarian Soviet machine…so inspired by such example that I decided to study law and to continue this fight for freedom and for human dignity.” (03:32)

2. The Center for Civil Liberties: Origins & Mission

• Founded in 2007 Amid Democratic Transition
  • Created at the urging of heads from various Helsinki Committees, at a rare moment of Ukrainian democratic optimism after the Orange Revolution.
  • The group is renowned for massive grassroots involvement and documenting war crimes, particularly after the Crimean annexation and in the Donbas conflict.
  • Notable Quote: “While this war turns people into the numbers, what we are literally doing, we are returning people their names. We believe that people are not numbers and life of each person matters.” (06:13)

3. Winning the Nobel Peace Prize

• Oleksandra describes receiving the Nobel as a shock—she initially thought it was a joke when first contacted. (06:22)

4. Real-Time War Crime Documentation — New Standards for Justice

• Digital Tools Transforming Accountability
  • The organization leverages technology to collect evidence even from occupied territories and identify individual perpetrators, challenging the “normal” of impunity in wartime.
  • Notable Quote: “We have now digital tools which help us to restore what happened…we as a humankind, we are able to set new international standards for justice even during the war, and individually track every individual.” (07:43)

5. Russia’s Strategy of Cruelty and Psychological Warfare

• Inducing Learned Helplessness
  • Oleksandra likens Russia’s approach to a classic psychological experiment inducing learned helplessness, aiming to break the resistance and will of Ukrainians via systemic cruelty.
  • Notable Quote: “They deliberately provide enormous pain and suffering to civilians…so you can’t resist… the only way for you is just to follow the orders.” (09:12)

6. Everyday Life in Kyiv Under War

• Loss of Normalcy and Uncertainty
  • The structure of daily life destroyed; living with uncertainty, fear, and loss. Yet, Ukrainians continue to demonstrate extraordinary resilience—hospitals, banks, schools persisting even during blackouts.
  • Notable Quote: “You can’t plan your next several hours because you have no idea what will happen…But I think that Ukrainians express unbelievable resilience. We even much more resilient than we think about ourselves.” (11:43)
  • “The bank system in Ukraine working even during the first days and first weeks of large scale war…the hospitals are working. They just go to basement and start to do complicated surgeon operation in a basement to save people.” (12:13)

7. Russian Treatment of Ukrainian Children—Deportation and Reeducation

• Mass Kidnapping & Erasure of Identity

  • Over 20,000 Ukrainian children have been separated from families and forcibly sent to Russia for “re-education” as Russians.
  • The children’s names, birthdates, and identities are changed, making reunification nearly impossible.
  • Notable Quote: “So they put these children in Russian re education camps. They told they’re not Ukrainian children, they are Russian children…adopted by Russian families who will bring them up as Russians.” (13:35)
  • The International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova for these acts—the first indictment of a world leader as a “child kidnapper.” (15:07)

• Systematic Russification and Militarization

  • In occupied Ukrainian territories, 1.6 million children endure banned language and culture, daily propaganda, and forced singing of the Russian national anthem.
  • Children are enrolled in Russian “re-education” and “patriotic” camps (sometimes even in Chechnya). From a young age, they wear military uniforms and learn to use weapons.
  • Notable Quote: “Russian adoptive families…can change the name of birth, the name of a child, the date of birth, the place of birth…Even if their parents will be released and try to find the child, it will be impossible.” (14:36)
  • Notable Quote: “With this thing they preparing a new generation of Putin soldiers…In this Russian textbook, Ukraine does not exist in the state.” (16:13)

• Psychological ‘Software’ of Obedience

  • Children are conditioned for total obedience — “authoritarian software” instilled from kindergarten, making later resistance or independent thought difficult.
  • At age 14, they receive Russian citizenship; at 18, they face conscription into the Russian army.
  • Notable Quote: “All Ukrainian children in occupied territories, they raised by Russians in a system of unquestionable obedience. Yes, like a slaver…from the kindergarten, they try to ingrain their mind this authoritarian software.” (16:44)
  • This is not only about Ukraine; it’s about creating future “soldiers” for Russia’s imperial ambitions elsewhere.

8. Global Stakes: Russia as Empire

• Without Ukraine, Putin would have a new population to weaponize. Oleksandra echoes the warning that “Empires are hungry, hungry hippos. They just keep going.”
• Russian captors have told Ukrainian prisoners the plan is: “First we’ll occupy Ukraine and then together with you, we will go to conquer other countries.” (19:12)

9. Gender, Authoritarianism, and Freedom

• Impact of Gender on Human Rights Struggle
  • Authoritarian regimes reliably suppress women, and the struggle in Ukraine is also one for its daughters’ and women’s full rights.
  • Notable Quote: “Every dictator is afraid of freedom…And that is why in this war with Russia, we Ukrainian women, we are fighting for our daughters. We want our daughters not to be in situation when you have to prove someone that you are also human beings.” (21:04)
  • Examples cited: Iranian, Afghan, Russian governments’ abuses of women’s rights — a barometer of broader repression.

10. Closing Reflections on Power

• Defining Power
  • Notable Quote: “I think power is ability to make things done when you have no other instruments, only your own words and your own position.” (22:32)

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “People are not numbers and life of each person matters.” – Oleksandra Matviychuk (06:13)
• “We as a humankind, we are able to set a new international standards for justice even during the war.” (07:43)
• “They deliberately provide enormous pain…and that is why this is a message of the war, Russian war crimes. It's not accidents, it's policy.” (09:12)
• “Ukrainians express unbelievable resilience in this war.” (12:13)
• “20,000 trafficked children…Russian families who will bring them up as Russians.” (13:35)
• “They preparing a new generation of Putin soldiers.” (16:44)
• “Empires are hungry, hungry hippos. They just keep going.” (18:35)
• “Every dictator is afraid of freedom…It’s all about proving our daughters’ humanity.” (21:04)
• “Power is ability to make things done when you have no other instruments, only your own words and your own position.” (22:32)

Segment Timestamps

• [00:45–04:13] Oleksandra’s inspiration & formative years
• [04:13–06:13] Foundation and mission of the Center for Civil Liberties
• [06:13–07:06] Winning the Nobel Peace Prize
• [07:08–08:48] Digital technology, documentation, and challenges to impunity
• [09:12–10:24] Russia’s methods—learned helplessness and psychological warfare
• [10:31–12:33] The destruction of normal life in wartime Kyiv
• [12:33–15:07] Russia’s deportation, trafficking, and re-education of Ukrainian children
• [15:07–18:35] Systemic efforts at russification, militarization, and future implications
• [18:35–20:00] Empires, mobilization, and global security stakes
• [20:00–22:30] Gendered dimensions of authoritarian repression and activism
• [22:30–22:47] Defining “power” – closing reflections

Summary

This urgent conversation spotlights the scale and deliberate nature of Russian war crimes, with a focus on the abducted and reprogrammed Ukrainian children—who represent, as Matviychuk repeatedly stresses, the future not just of Ukraine but of democracy everywhere. The stories, data, and analysis offered—rooted in both law and lived experience—make clear the war’s stakes: identity, humanity, and the fate of free societies. Ukrainian resilience, especially among women, persists in the face of shocking brutality; yet the loss, risk, and trauma are immense. The episode offers both a warning and a call to collective responsibility.

For more:

• Listen to the full episode for the depth of Matviychuk’s observations and personal voice.
• Follow CSIS's Smart Women, Smart Power for future insights on women in global affairs.