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Smart Women, Smart Power
Putin's Next Soldiers: Ukrainian Children
00:23:25
Host Kathleen McInnis speaks with Nobel Laureate Oleksandra Matviichuk on Russian war crimes against Ukrainian children.
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- [00:04]
A
This is Smart Women, Smart Power, a podcast that features conversations with some of the world's most powerful women. We feature thought leaders at all career levels where we explore, among other things, the many contributions that women make to the fields of international business, national security, foreign policy, and international development. Does having women in positions of power influence the outcomes of decisions in these fields? Why or why not? Join me, Dr. Kathleen McInnes, Director of the Smart Women's Smart Power Initiative at the center for Strategic and International Studies. For these incredible conversations.
- [00:45]
B
Today, I'm joined by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Oleksandra Matvetchuk, who is a leading Ukrainian human rights defender and the head of the center for Civil Liberties. Her organization, which promotes democracy and civil society in Ukraine, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022 for its work documenting Russian war crimes. Alexandra, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
- [01:10]
C
Thank you for invitation.
- [01:11]
B
So, to kick us off, we'd love to know how you got into the field of international human rights lawyer. What inspired you to become a human rights lawyer?
- [01:22]
C
When I was a child and studying in school, I got acquaintance with Soviet dissidents.
- [01:28]
B
What age were you at that point?
- [01:30]
C
I was in ninth class.
- [01:31]
B
Ninth class. So ninth grade.
- [01:32]
C
Okay. And suddenly I appeared in the circle of fantastic people. People who say what they think and do what they say. People who had a bravery stood up their voice again. The entire totalitarian Soviet machine. People who have no other instruments how to influence the situation, only their own words and their own position. Dissident movements were severely persecuted in Soviet Union. Part of people were killed, part of people were jailed. Part of people were subjected to the forced psychological treatment. But they didn't give up. Their families were separated, their careers were ruined, but they continued their fight for freedom and for human dignity. And being a child in a school, I was so inspired by such example that I decided to study law and to continue this fight for freedom and for human dignity.
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B
And how did you become introduced? Was there a person that brought you into that community?
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C
Was.
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B
Was it a group that came to your school who personally reached out to you and brought you into that?
- [02:49]
C
The main person for me in the circle, and one of the main person in my whole life was Yevgen Sverstiuk, the famous Ukrainian philosopher, writer and former political prisoner, Soviet Hulak. We got acquaintance when I was in school. He was invited to school and I don't know why he decided to become my mentor. Really? Really. And so.
- [03:17]
B
So you just speaking with him regularly over the days, months and years and.
- [03:23]
C
Yes, and he invited Me to his home where the Soviet dissidents have a gathering. And it was very interesting for me, being a small girl, I just sitting and listening. Yeah. And I remember that these people were so noble and so modest and they always treat me very equally.
- [03:47]
B
Wow. Well, that brings us to what we're discussing today on this podcast. You're leading an effort that documents the horrific war crimes that Russia has inflicted on the people, the children. Can you tell us a bit about the organization that you run and what are its priorities?
- [04:14]
C
I founded this organization 2007 immediately when I finished law faculty of Kyiv National Draschevchenko University. The idea of creation of such organization wasn't mine. It was the idea of the heads of Helsinki committees in O region. Because in 2007 Ukraine was the exception of the general trends which is going on in post Soviet Union space. Because it was right after Orange revolution. And while in other countries, especially in Russia, the space for freedom was shrinking to the size of the prison cell. Ukraine opposite demonstrates success in democratic development. And so I created this organization based on these decisions of heads of Helsinki committees. And from the beginning of our work, we know that we have to work not just on national level, but on international level. And now we observe that everything which we face in Ukraine is just a reflection of the negative global trends which is going on in the world. So I return to the work of the organization. We are famous in Ukraine for our ability to massively involve ordinary people into human rights work. During the revolution of dignity, I launched civil initiative Yevremaidanis Os and we brought up thousands of people to provide legal assistance to all prosecuted protesters. We were the first human rights organizations who sent mobile groups to Crimea and to eastern regions in Ukraine when Russia invaded. And still this time we continued documentation of war crimes. And while this war turns people into the numbers, what we are literally doing, we are returning people their names. We believe that people are not numbers and life of each person matters.
- [06:13]
B
What was the day like when you found out that your organization won the Nobel Prize? Were you expecting it?
- [06:22]
A
Was it just.
- [06:23]
C
It was a huge surprise. When I got the call, I told, okay, it's a joke. That's funny. It's even not funny. And. But then in several minutes I understand that it's not joke because my telephone became red. I was in Warsaw. I was on my way from New York to Kyiv because we have no functioning airport. That is why I have to fly to Warsaw and to take train. So I'm going to the train with luggage. At that moment I got information that we received a Nobel Peace Prize. So it was really unexpectedly.
- [07:06]
B
Dragon Luggage.
- [07:08]
C
Yeah.
- [07:09]
B
Okay, well, and then going back to what you were saying earlier about the. The way that your organization has been tracking and helping people prosecute war crimes. It's revolutionary, right? Because you can start to act on these things in real time, in ways that didn't exist, if I understand correctly, prior to now, at least in such scope.
- [07:44]
C
Because what we are doing together, we're trying to challenge one normal which ingrained in the minds of people in different countries, that if you have wars or huge human rights crisis, because of the enormous amount of victims, the majority of people have no chance for justice and the majority of perpetrators will avoid responsibility because it's difficult to identify them. But we can challenge this normal because we have now digital tools which help us to restore what happened, to collect evidence, to communicate with people, even being in occupied territories, and to identify perpet traitors which we can't even dream just 13 years ago during the Balkans war. Which means that now we as a humankind, we are able to set a new international standards for justice even during the war, and individually track every individual.
- [08:48]
B
Stories and for our listeners. So we've been here, you know, with a couple of meetings over the past couple of days, talking about these issues. And one of the things, the questions that keeps coming up is why would they do this? Why would Russia do this? And your thought, I mean, to me it's almost like cruelty is the point. It's the Russian way of warfare.
- [09:13]
C
Now let me explain this with one famous ecological experiment, which is also very cruel, but it's experiment of the past century. The scientists, they beat animal, as I remember, it was dog with electricity. Every time when this animal tried to eat. And it leads to situation that this poor dog refused to eat and decided to die in hunger pain, but didn't do any attempt to survive and to eat, just to avoid this pain. And scientists call this state the Lord helplessness. Yes. So Russians, they try to to make such horrible experiment in the frame of the whole nation. They deliberately provide enormous pain and suffering to civilians, such pain that you can't even breathe, which means that you can't resist to it, that the only way for you is just to follow the orders and everything which aggressors want from you to do. And that is why this is a message of the war, Russian war crimes. It's not accidents, it's policy.
- [10:25]
B
Could you give our listeners a sense of what is everyday life like in Kyiv?
- [10:31]
C
Oh, there is no term as everyday life because first which is ruined. In the large scale war. It's everything which you call normal life. It means that your life lost structure. You have lost a lot of simple things which were your daily routine, like to go to the work, to meet with your friend in cafe, to hug your beloved ones, to have family dinners. Everything disappeared and crushed. Because to live during the large scale war means that you live in total uncertainty. You can't plan not just your day, you can't plan your next several hours because you have no idea what will happen. To live during the large scale war means that you live in constant fear for your beloved ones. Because even if your family are not in army, there is no safe place in Ukraine where you can hide from Russian rockets. So it's very difficult life to live. But I think that Ukrainians express unbelievable resilience. We even much more resilient than we think about ourselves. Let me tell you one funny story. When I was in Paris and my friend drive me from press conference to the hotel and she told me look how bad the drivers behave on the roads, it's because of rain. And I asked her and what will happen? It will be snow. And she told everything will stop. And they start laughing because it was January of 2023 and Ukraine we have no heat, no water, no electricity. And I told you are not preparing for blackout. You are not preparing for blackout. The bank system in Ukraine working even during the first days and first weeks of large scale war. The university is working even without electricity. The hospitals are working. They just go to basement and start to do complicated surgeon operation in a basement to save people. Ukrainians express unbelievable resilience in this war.
- [12:33]
B
One issue that many Americans care about is the treatment of children and trafficking of children. And so if it's okay, I'd like to. Could you share with our audience what you've seen on that front from the Russians?
- [12:51]
C
It's a very painful question for Ukrainians because children saw the future. And that's why Russia tried to erase identity of children in the occupied territories and even forcibly deported them to Russia. So. So it's a clear intent to steal up a future. Because for any nation, for any countries, their children and their future. So what Russia is doing. Ukrainian officials identified more than 20,000 Ukrainian children who were separated with their families.
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B
To our listeners, 20,000 children separated from their families and taken out of Ukraine. 20,000 trafficked children.
- [13:36]
C
So they put these children in Russian re education camps. They told they're not Ukrainian children, they are Russian children. Their families, their parents refuse from them and they will be adopted by Russian families who will bring them up as Russians. And the problem is that among these children, there are children from orphanages or children whose parents were killed by Russians, but they still have families who want to return their home, at least relatives. And also there are children whose parents were arrested by Russians and they also supposed to be adopted, which is a huge problem, because Russian adoptive families, they can change the name of birth, the name of a child, the date of birth, the place of birth. So if the child is more like two or three years old, it means even if their parents will be released and try to find the child, it will be impossible for them to do and child will lose their identity and don't remember who they are. But plus to this I must admit that we have another problem. Because it's just only one group of children. We call them deported children. And that is why International Criminal Court issued arrest warrant against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova Belova and made officially Vladimir Putin the biggest child kidnapper in the world. And this is not just metafora. It's a legal verdict, it's a legal accusation.
- [15:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, which I don't think a lot of people know, or enough people know that fact that he has been indicted.
- [15:16]
C
Yes. So the persecution started and he's not comfortable with it. This is always demand from Russia to stop this persecution of Vladimir Putin, but return to the other children. We have in occupied territories 1,000,600 children. And their life is very difficult because Russia prohibited their native language, Ukrainian language, their culture. They have to study only on Russian textbook in a school. And in this Russian textbook, Ukraine does not exist in the state. They have to start every morning with singing Russian national ASM obligatory. So it's a huge force to erode their identity. Parallel to this, Russia started militarization of these children from the kindergarten particularly. And a part of this militarization is creation of the network of so called ports and re education camps in occupied territories and also in different regions of Russia, like Chechnya, for example. And Ukrainian parents were forced to send their children to these camps. In these camps, children used military uniform, they march, they use weapons.
- [16:41]
B
These are little children, These are different.
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C
Different age, different age. There are specialization of different camps. Some work with small children, some with teenagers. And you know, it's very attractive for child to take guns to marsh to demonstrate their force, to be cool. So unfortunately it works. And with this thing they preparing a new generation of Putin soldiers. And third, what I started to understand only when I spoke with my colleagues who provide rehabilitation for children who return from occupied territories, that all Ukrainian children in occupied territories they raised by Russians in a system of unquestionable obedience. Yes, like a slaver that they from the kindergarten, they try to ingrain their mind this authoritarian software that your will have no meaning, you just have to fulfill the orders. And then it's very difficult to change in the more elder period because it's just a way how to you look to the world that you will have no meaning and you have just to fulfill someone's orders. So returning to this conclusion that Russia is repairing from this 1 million 600 children the new generation of Putin soldiers. At the age of 14, these children will receive Russian citizenship. In the age of 18, these children will be forcibly conscripted to Russian army, which means that they will go and die in every country which Russia sent them. Because it's very naive to think that Russia is preparing this new generation of Putin soldiers just to do war with Ukraine.
- [18:36]
B
Well, and this is a fundamental strategic point. If we lose Ukraine, then Putin has access to and can mobilize an enormous, an enormously talented population to achieve his own war aims. And there's very few observers who think that Putin will stop at Ukraine. Empires are hungry, hungry hippos. They just keep going. So it's only a matter of time before those forces could be turned against us.
- [19:12]
C
Unfortunately, it's true. And I see it even in my human rights work. I interviewed hundreds of people who survived Russian captivity, men and women, mostly civilians. And they told me how Russians see their future. They see the future like this. First we'll occupy Ukraine and then together with you, we will go to conquer in other countries. And the process of forcible mobilization of Ukrainians to Russian army all these years is going on in occupied territories because Russia is empire. And as you rightly mentioned, empire has a center but has no borders. Empire always tries to expand. This is a nature of empire. When empire can't expand, they just wait to get more energy and to go.
- [20:01]
B
Further, to start wrapping up our conversation. Do you think your gender as a woman has had an impact on how you've approached your work, your life? If so, why not?
- [20:14]
C
Why not? Yes, I think it has a huge influence because just 11 years ago we live under authoritarian per Russian government, which collapsed after revolution of dignity. And this collapse opened a way for Ukrainians to democratic transition. And that is why Russia started this war. Not because Putin is afraid of NATO, but because Putin is afraid of the idea of freedom which came closer to Russian borders.
- [20:44]
B
Putin is Afraid of freedom?
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C
Yes, no doubt. Every dictator is afraid of freedom because just existence of free world always provides a threat for them to build their power. So also veteran regimes, they have very common feature. They treat women badly.
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B
Yes, they do.
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C
It's a basis for solitarian regiment. They pointed a concrete role for women in family and society. Why it's a basis for authoritarian regime? Because how people treat each other in society, it's always impact and reflect the society idea what government can do towards its own people. And that is why in Iran you can be arrested and raped if you don't wear appropriate clothes. In Afghanistan, women are prohibited to study in in schools and universities and now they even prohibited to speak in the front of men. In Russia, the domestic violence is decriminalized and Russian men did horrible things with Russian women and children without any punishment. Because once again, it's always just a reflection what government do towards its own people. And that is why in this war with Russia, we Ukrainian women, we are fighting for our daughters. We want our daughters not to be in situation. When you have to prove someone that you are also human beings, that you also have all rights and freedoms as every person has. This is a huge impact to close us out.
- [22:30]
B
How do you define power?
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C
I think power is ability to make things done when you have no other instruments, only your own words and your own position.
- [22:47]
B
Alexandra, thank you for fighting for our daughters. Because it's not just Ukraine's daughters, it's all of our daughters that you're fighting for. And for all of us, thank you for everything you are doing for us.
- [23:00]
C
Thank you very much. I'm very grateful for your support and solidarity.
- [23:06]
A
Subscribe to the Smart Women Smart Power podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to great content. Be sure to follow us on Twitter martwomen or you can follow me on Twitter jmcinnis1. Thanks for listening and join us next time.