Podcast Summary: Smart Women, Smart Power — Whole of Society Resilience: Lessons from Russia-Ukraine

Host: CSIS | Center for Strategic and International Studies
Episode Date: April 17, 2025
Guests:

• Scott Murphy (Visiting Military Fellow, CSIS)
• Kathleen McGinnis (Senior Fellow, Director of Smart Women, Smart Power)
• Irynia Newcovy (Ukrainian Member of Parliament; Founder & CEO of Armed Women Now)

Episode Overview

This episode explores how Ukraine's resilience in the face of Russia's invasion has emerged through "whole of society" efforts. Featuring Ukrainian Member of Parliament Irynia Newcovy, the discussion delves into the grassroots mobilization, the key role of women in defense, the adaptation of society and industry under war conditions, and the lessons these developments hold for international security and future defense planning, especially for NATO and Western allies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shock and Unity at the Outset of Full-Scale War

[02:54–04:30]

• Irynia Newcovy described February 24, 2022, as a moment of collective shock and immediate unity:

  "We all were shocked, of course, but we show to the whole world...a very high level of unity. So we unite all our efforts as civilians and defenders, as the whole civil society, volunteers, as politicians to fight against Russia."

• Ordinary citizens—men and women—queued at recruitment centers, while others improvised support roles (volunteering, logistics, supplies).

2. The Bottom-Up Nature of Ukrainian Resilience

[05:50–07:45 | 11:04–12:48]

• Resilience was citizen-driven, not just top-down:

  "It wasn't on behalf of government, it was on behalf of people...every Ukrainian put their own tasks how he can be involved in fighting against Russia." (I. Newcovy, [05:50])

• Scott Murphy highlighted how Western security communities often focus on state-driven (top-down) resilience, but Ukraine’s success was rooted in bottom-up, grassroots cohesion:

  "The resiliency that’s given Ukraine the ability to stand up to such a larger aggressor was based on a bottom up, population centric approach, not from the government." (S. Murphy, [11:04])

• Kathleen McGinnis noted “will to fight” as a vital result of this population-centric resilience.

3. The Role of Civil Society & Women’s Organizations

[08:20–10:46 | 16:10–19:46]

• Investments post-2014, often with Western and EU support, built up women’s organizations and broader civil society infrastructure, helping create the foundation for national endurance.
• Irynia Newcovy authored Strong Women of Strong Countries, documenting 30 stories of Ukrainian women who shifted from civilian to combat roles, motivating both herself and others:

  "I have a very single rule: do what you can with what you have, where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in my understandings." ([18:22])

4. The Contribution and Empowerment of Women in Defense

[21:59–32:47]

• Many friction points in utilizing the whole population—like ill-fitting men's uniforms for women—were quickly identified and addressed through grassroots innovation:

  "When I recognized as a civilian...that our women defenders have to wear men’s uniform, men’s boots, men’s body armor and even men’s underwear, I decided that I want to change the system..." (I. Newcovy, [22:08])

• Armed Women Now focused on equipping women with NATO-standard, female-specific body armor and uniforms.
• Staggering statistics:

  "Only in armed forces we have more than 70,000 women...maybe 50,000 who hold combat position. And...in February this year, the number increased five times. So right now, 25,000 women are at the front line." (I. Newcovy, [24:06–24:22])

Notable Quote

• "Women are as capable as men of taking up arms and fighting and show very high level of efficiency, from combat medic to intelligence, being a pilot of drones or...every combat position on equal ground with the man." (I. Newcovy, [25:21])

5. Embracing Human Factors & Technological Innovation

[28:19–33:30]

• Demonstrated necessity of human-centric equipment:

  "It’s not a gender issue. Human factors in combat engineering and harnessing efficiency is crucial." (S. Murphy, [29:12])

• Ukrainian manufacturers—often run by internally displaced women—produce high-quality military gear and body armor, supported and recognized by NATO allies:

  "This is like win-win story because internally displaced women...can support another woman who are serving in the army." (I. Newcovy, [33:30])

• War’s evolution (e.g., drone warfare) has driven rapid adaptation and more agile, innovative approaches.

6. Whole of Society Resilience & Deterrence for Future Conflicts

[34:00–40:47]

• Resilience is key not only in wartime survival but for deterrence strategies:

  "Whole of society resilience really does need to be a component of this broader suite of strategies necessary to convince...Russia to not cross the line. If you don’t have the line clear...that we are unified, that we’ve got the will to resist...those things have to come together as a coherent package to convince Moscow not to act." (K. McGinnis, [39:34])

• Security guarantees and military strength, along with resilience, are prerequisites for dealing with aggressive adversaries:

  "Unfortunately Putin understands only a language of power. So together with our very strong will, with our resilience, we need to have stronger security guarantees and to make stronger Ukrainian army because only if you are powerful at the battlefield, you can start any negotiation with him." (I. Newcovy, [41:49])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unity vs. Exhaustion:

  "Everybody tired and our defenders exhausting being at the front line more than three years...Anyway, this is the only chance how we can survive as a nation..." (I. Newcovy, [02:54])

• On Bottom-Up Resilience:

  "This war has taught us many lessons. But perhaps the most important is this: resilience is not built in institutions alone. It is built in people." (I. Newcovy, [07:30])

• On the Importance of Adapting Equipment:

  "If nations don’t take these factors into consideration, we are undermining ourselves before the war even starts." (K. McGinnis, [21:59])

• On Armed Women Now’s Mission:

  "Arm Women Now is a social project about equal opportunities, about respect and dignity of women who are serving right now in defense and security sector..." (I. Newcovy, [35:55])

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Unity in the Face of Invasion: [02:54–05:50]
• Civil Society’s Role Pre- and During Full-scale War: [05:50–10:46]
• Women’s Involvement and Armed Women Now: [16:10–19:46]
• Human Factors & Body Armor Demo: [27:10–29:51]
• Industry, Innovation & Local Manufacturing: [33:30–35:12]
• Lessons for Deterrence and Future Security: [39:34–41:49]
• Final Thoughts on Power and Security Guarantees: [41:49–42:47]

Takeaways for Listeners

• Resilience is forged from the bottom up. Ukraine’s citizens—not just government leaders—mobilized to resist Russia’s aggression, forming the backbone of national resistance.
• Women’s participation is both practical and essential, not just symbolic. Their integration in meaningful combat and logistical roles amplified Ukraine’s endurance and operational readiness.
• Adapting to human needs and technological realities—for example, innovative, gender-specific military gear—can be the difference between mere participation and optimal effectiveness.
• Whole of society resilience is decisive not only for withstanding war but for deterring it: unity, preparedness, and adaptability send the strongest signals to adversaries.

“Do what you can with what you have, where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in my understandings.”
— Irynia Newcovy ([18:22])

Listen for these inspiring and practical lessons in resilience, gender integration, and the future of national defense—directly from those forging them under fire.