Whole of Society Resilience Lessons from Russia-Ukraine

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Smart Women, Smart Power — Whole of Society Resilience: Lessons from Russia-Ukraine

Host: CSIS | Center for Strategic and International Studies
Episode Date: April 17, 2025
Guests:

• Scott Murphy (Visiting Military Fellow, CSIS)
• Kathleen McGinnis (Senior Fellow, Director of Smart Women, Smart Power)
• Irynia Newcovy (Ukrainian Member of Parliament; Founder & CEO of Armed Women Now)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how Ukraine's resilience in the face of Russia's invasion has emerged through "whole of society" efforts. Featuring Ukrainian Member of Parliament Irynia Newcovy, the discussion delves into the grassroots mobilization, the key role of women in defense, the adaptation of society and industry under war conditions, and the lessons these developments hold for international security and future defense planning, especially for NATO and Western allies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shock and Unity at the Outset of Full-Scale War

[02:54–04:30]

• Irynia Newcovy described February 24, 2022, as a moment of collective shock and immediate unity:

  "We all were shocked, of course, but we show to the whole world...a very high level of unity. So we unite all our efforts as civilians and defenders, as the whole civil society, volunteers, as politicians to fight against Russia."

• Ordinary citizens—men and women—queued at recruitment centers, while others improvised support roles (volunteering, logistics, supplies).

2. The Bottom-Up Nature of Ukrainian Resilience

[05:50–07:45 | 11:04–12:48]

• Resilience was citizen-driven, not just top-down:

  "It wasn't on behalf of government, it was on behalf of people...every Ukrainian put their own tasks how he can be involved in fighting against Russia." (I. Newcovy, [05:50])

• Scott Murphy highlighted how Western security communities often focus on state-driven (top-down) resilience, but Ukraine’s success was rooted in bottom-up, grassroots cohesion:

  "The resiliency that’s given Ukraine the ability to stand up to such a larger aggressor was based on a bottom up, population centric approach, not from the government." (S. Murphy, [11:04])

• Kathleen McGinnis noted “will to fight” as a vital result of this population-centric resilience.

3. The Role of Civil Society & Women’s Organizations

[08:20–10:46 | 16:10–19:46]

• Investments post-2014, often with Western and EU support, built up women’s organizations and broader civil society infrastructure, helping create the foundation for national endurance.
• Irynia Newcovy authored Strong Women of Strong Countries, documenting 30 stories of Ukrainian women who shifted from civilian to combat roles, motivating both herself and others:

  "I have a very single rule: do what you can with what you have, where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in my understandings." ([18:22])

4. The Contribution and Empowerment of Women in Defense

[21:59–32:47]

• Many friction points in utilizing the whole population—like ill-fitting men's uniforms for women—were quickly identified and addressed through grassroots innovation:

  "When I recognized as a civilian...that our women defenders have to wear men’s uniform, men’s boots, men’s body armor and even men’s underwear, I decided that I want to change the system..." (I. Newcovy, [22:08])

• Armed Women Now focused on equipping women with NATO-standard, female-specific body armor and uniforms.
• Staggering statistics:

  "Only in armed forces we have more than 70,000 women...maybe 50,000 who hold combat position. And...in February this year, the number increased five times. So right now, 25,000 women are at the front line." (I. Newcovy, [24:06–24:22])

Notable Quote

• "Women are as capable as men of taking up arms and fighting and show very high level of efficiency, from combat medic to intelligence, being a pilot of drones or...every combat position on equal ground with the man." (I. Newcovy, [25:21])

5. Embracing Human Factors & Technological Innovation

[28:19–33:30]

• Demonstrated necessity of human-centric equipment:

  "It’s not a gender issue. Human factors in combat engineering and harnessing efficiency is crucial." (S. Murphy, [29:12])

• Ukrainian manufacturers—often run by internally displaced women—produce high-quality military gear and body armor, supported and recognized by NATO allies:

  "This is like win-win story because internally displaced women...can support another woman who are serving in the army." (I. Newcovy, [33:30])

• War’s evolution (e.g., drone warfare) has driven rapid adaptation and more agile, innovative approaches.

6. Whole of Society Resilience & Deterrence for Future Conflicts

[34:00–40:47]

• Resilience is key not only in wartime survival but for deterrence strategies:

  "Whole of society resilience really does need to be a component of this broader suite of strategies necessary to convince...Russia to not cross the line. If you don’t have the line clear...that we are unified, that we’ve got the will to resist...those things have to come together as a coherent package to convince Moscow not to act." (K. McGinnis, [39:34])

• Security guarantees and military strength, along with resilience, are prerequisites for dealing with aggressive adversaries:

  "Unfortunately Putin understands only a language of power. So together with our very strong will, with our resilience, we need to have stronger security guarantees and to make stronger Ukrainian army because only if you are powerful at the battlefield, you can start any negotiation with him." (I. Newcovy, [41:49])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unity vs. Exhaustion:

  "Everybody tired and our defenders exhausting being at the front line more than three years...Anyway, this is the only chance how we can survive as a nation..." (I. Newcovy, [02:54])

• On Bottom-Up Resilience:

  "This war has taught us many lessons. But perhaps the most important is this: resilience is not built in institutions alone. It is built in people." (I. Newcovy, [07:30])

• On the Importance of Adapting Equipment:

  "If nations don’t take these factors into consideration, we are undermining ourselves before the war even starts." (K. McGinnis, [21:59])

• On Armed Women Now’s Mission:

  "Arm Women Now is a social project about equal opportunities, about respect and dignity of women who are serving right now in defense and security sector..." (I. Newcovy, [35:55])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Unity in the Face of Invasion: [02:54–05:50]
• Civil Society’s Role Pre- and During Full-scale War: [05:50–10:46]
• Women’s Involvement and Armed Women Now: [16:10–19:46]
• Human Factors & Body Armor Demo: [27:10–29:51]
• Industry, Innovation & Local Manufacturing: [33:30–35:12]
• Lessons for Deterrence and Future Security: [39:34–41:49]
• Final Thoughts on Power and Security Guarantees: [41:49–42:47]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Resilience is forged from the bottom up. Ukraine’s citizens—not just government leaders—mobilized to resist Russia’s aggression, forming the backbone of national resistance.
• Women’s participation is both practical and essential, not just symbolic. Their integration in meaningful combat and logistical roles amplified Ukraine’s endurance and operational readiness.
• Adapting to human needs and technological realities—for example, innovative, gender-specific military gear—can be the difference between mere participation and optimal effectiveness.
• Whole of society resilience is decisive not only for withstanding war but for deterring it: unity, preparedness, and adaptability send the strongest signals to adversaries.

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“Do what you can with what you have, where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in my understandings.”
— Irynia Newcovy ([18:22])

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Listen for these inspiring and practical lessons in resilience, gender integration, and the future of national defense—directly from those forging them under fire.

Transcript

[Scott Murphy]

Foreign.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Smart power listeners, we've been on a short break developing new interesting content for you guys. But in the meantime, today we're sharing a special episode from our CSIS Conflict in Focus series where I sat down with my colleague Scott Murphy and Ukrainian MP and founder of Armed Women Now, Irynia Newcovy, where we explored whole of society resilience in the Russia Ukraine crisis.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Stay tuned.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

We're going to be back with more stuff soon.

[Scott Murphy]

For over three years, Ukraine, a nation of less than 35 million people, has blunted and resisted the aggression of Russia, a nation with a population of over 145 million, though engaged in a struggle for its very survival by leveraging the strength and talent of the entire Ukrainian population, Ukraine. Ukraine has not only been able to fight a significantly larger aggressor, but has improved its industrial base, grown its economy and become a leader in the evolution of military technology. Today we examine the importance of leveraging whole of society actions to create resiliency both prior to and during war. For our series Conflict in Lessons from the Russia Ukraine War. Thank you for being here. My name is Scott Murphy and I'm a visiting military fellow here for the center for Strategic and International Studies. Today I have the pleasure of being joined with Kathleen McGinnis, Senior Fellow and Director of the Smart Women Smart Power program, and Irene Nikoliak, Minister of Parliament in Ukraine and CEO and President of Arm Women Now, a nonprofit dedicated to bringing NATO standard equipment and uniforms to women serving in the Ukrainian military. Thank you for joining us.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Thank you for having me.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Thank you for invitation. It's a big honor for me to be today with you.

[Scott Murphy]

Thank you, Irina. Thank you, Kathleen. Since 2014, the Ukrainian government, military and civil society have worked in concert with each other to ensure the requirements of fighting Russia, a significantly larger foe, didn't result in either economic or civil collapse within the state of Ukraine. I'd like to start by asking you, Irina, who is both within your capacity as a Minister of parliament and a member of civil society, to provide an overview of the challenges faced by Ukraine at the start of this conflict in 2022 and through today, specifically with a focus on how manpower and the requirements of fielding people to the front line have affected Ukraine. So kind of from both a government and societal perspective, what were the impacts of these requirements and how does Ukraine view its situation at the start and now?

[Irynia Newcovy]

I would say that starting from the full scale invasion, we all were shocked, of course, but we show to the whole world and to ourselves very high level of unity. So we unite all our efforts as civilians and defenders, as the whole civil society volunteers as politicians to fight against Russia. And if we are talking, for example, what is happening right now in Ukraine and what people feel every day being under attack of Russian rockets and drones, of course I can say that everybody tired and our defenders exhausting being at the front line more than three years, because I visited Donbass area and different cities and villages very close to zero line. And I see how complicated is to hold the line. And anyway, this is the only chance how we can survive as a nation, as a people who is fighting for their dignity, for their freedom and for independence of our country, because we believe for future independent Ukraine for our children and without Russia on Ukrainian territories.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Could I drill down a little bit into a comment you made at the beginning, which was that you were able. Ukraine was able to be unified after the full scale invasion. But building unity of effort across a government, across society is easy to talk about, but exceptionally difficult to pull off in practice. Could you walk us through what the Ukrainian government, what civil society did prior to the 2022 invasion and to facilitate that sort of commonality, that unity, and then maybe spend a little bit of time walking. How has the government maintained that unity? Because on the one hand there is this overwhelming aggressor, for sure, that is a catalyst for unity, but it's also, I think it requires more than that. It requires more than an overwhelming aggressor. It requires intention to bring everybody together. So be interested in your thoughts before the war and during the war. How have you gotten to that unity of effort?

[Irynia Newcovy]

I would say that it wasn't on behalf of government, it was on behalf of people. Because I was in Kiev when full invasion was started and I got up at 5am because of very loud explosions near the window of my bedroom. And 24th of February 2022, like thousands of Ukrainians were staying in very long line to recruitment centers. It was both men and women. If we are talking about civilians who for example, didn't join the armed forces as defenders on volunteer basis, even without mobilization process, they were trying to support those who are fighting in other ways as volunteers, as social responsible business, who support army with ammunition protection, ammunition with drones, with food, with clothes, with everything. So I have to say that every Ukrainian put their own tasks how he can be involved in fighting against Russia. So it's not because our government, it's about resilience of Ukrainian people. And this, this war has taught us many lessons. But perhaps the most important is this resilience is not Built in institutions alone. It is built in people.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Right.

[Irynia Newcovy]

I would say is the main message. And it's still. It was in the beginning of full scale invasion, and we can see it right now on the 4th year of full scale invasion and on 11 or even 12, 11 year of Russian Ukrainian war, because of course it started in 2014.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Well, what you're speaking to in sort of military strategy terms is will to fight, will to participate, will to fight.

[Irynia Newcovy]

The will to fight, yes.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

And when I was in Ukraine in like a couple of years ago, I've only been there once, but one of the things that I heard during some of these conversations that I had was that there was intentional work after 2014 to really work on building civil society and women's groups as part of that, which helped in turn lead to national resilience. There was something. There was something there to have a will to fight. Would you agree with that assessment or how that played out? Or disagree?

[Irynia Newcovy]

If we are talking about. You mean the women who joined the army as volunteers.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

No, I mean more after 2014.

[Scott Murphy]

International.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Groups, investments were made by different groups to build Ukrainian civil society of which women were part, which helps create a foundation for Ukraine to stand against Russia. Would you agree with that?

[Irynia Newcovy]

Mostly, yes. And we of course put a lot of efforts to build this civil society together with our partners from European countries, together with United States of America and other countries. But if we are talking about this level of resilience, I would say before full scale invasion, we didn't feel the consequences of war because the war was very far from us, from Kyiv, from big cities. It was in the east part of Ukraine. But after full scale invasion, when everybody felt on themselves that the war is doing like knock, knock to your door, to your home, to your cities, to your family, of course we mobilized all our forces, all our efforts to be at the same line with our armed forces, with our civil society, and of course with government, with parliament, with politicians.

[Scott Murphy]

Irina, thank you so much. And Kathleen, what a great question to ask. I'd like to go back and just touch on kind of the main point of what you just said, which was the resiliency that's given Ukraine. The ability to stand up to such a larger aggressor was based on a bottom up, population centric approach, not from the government.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Yeah.

[Scott Murphy]

And kind of looking at it from the aspect of military strategy like you touched on, Kathleen, I think that's a massive lesson learned for those of us that deal in this national security community, because we tend to view things from a top down focus where we have authorities from government or the military. Talk about resiliency, but it's really that grassroots population centric inculcation against stress, violence and hardship that really gave Ukraine the ability to do what it has done. I think when we look at it from, you know, not just the United States, but other nations across the world, that key takeaway is how do we get our populations ready to be resistant and resilient in a bottom up approach. Vice that standard top down kind of authority dictated manner.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

I think that's right. I mean it was. Sorry to dork out about strategy stuff.

[Irynia Newcovy]

But.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

If you don't have that, that bottom up perspective, when you think about that, it is what created will to fight, right? Forgive me, Irina. There was so just to go back to the analysis just after the full scale invasion and what so many people were predicting was that given Russian overwhelming superiority that Ukraine would fall right there was just how could they stand? They stood because of a bottom up approach. They stood because there was will. It's decisive, but it's a secret sauce that we tend not to pay much attention to because we're thinking about widgets and we're thinking about tech and all.

[Scott Murphy]

The things that kind of touched on the question I'd like to ask you, Irina. So in the military we talk about the skill to fight, which is kind of your basic tactics, techniques and procedures. Very much the widget and how to use the widget approach. We've also started to incorporate will training because we've always kind of implicitly known that the will to fight was the most important component. Military theorists from Napoleon man the state in war, all of these things touch on it, but it's become more codified in recent history. But for a population it's much different. We can't run people through stress inoculations and things like that. How did kind of the Ukrainian population harness this will? Like what is the key to that secret sauce that made you such a resilient people?

[Irynia Newcovy]

Very interesting question.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Besides women like you.

[Scott Murphy]

Besides that.

[Irynia Newcovy]

If we're talking about me, I just frankly speaking, I wasn't ready for full scale invasion and I didn't believe that Russian troops will be near Kiev. And Kiev was almost in a circle. So we could use only one road to go out of the city. And I didn't believe in this even for a lot of messages from our partners, from intelligence agencies, majority of Ukrainians, they didn't believe in this. So I think that this total mobilization of all our resources, human capital, our ability to fight, to Prepare very fast because we weren't ready, to be honest, I'm telling you, even right now on the first year of full scale invasion. But I think that our armed forces, to whom we trust like 100%, if you will walk in Kiev or in little communities across Ukraine and will ask people whom you trust most of all, they will answer armed forces. So I believe that this mobilization of professional defenders and those who join the armed forces on volunteer basis, this is the only reason why we didn't fall in three days.

[Scott Murphy]

That's an incredible story on the story thread. I've always found, and I think, Kathleen, you would agree that personal anecdotes and personal stories are some of the best way to convey incredibly important points, both on the strategic level and just kind of general lessons learned for any situation, both from your perspective as an MP and kind of being a a leader in the civil society space. I'd really be honored if you'd share one or two personal stories with us about how the resiliency of the whole of the Ukrainian population and the contributions from across the spectrum of females in both the military and the economy have really allowed you to be this resilient pillar of stability in an otherwise very, very difficult situation.

[Irynia Newcovy]

It's complicated to give you one or two personal stories, but I just want to show you this book which was published and it was written by me and published in the end of previous year, looks like this. I called it Strong Women of Strong Countries because when I started to implement gender oriented reforms in defence and security sector in the beginning of 2022, I wanted to feel on me how it is to be a woman defender at the front line. So I visited the east part of Ukraine and I interviewed at the battlefield a lot of women defenders who hold different combat positions. And based on this interview I wrote this book and unite 30 unique stories of heroines of 21st very turbulent and unfair century. I remember one of such stories about Olena Kuznetsova before full scale invasion. She was a teacher of junior classes in Irpin school. She survived after occupation and in the middle of 2022 she joined one of the Isolde Brigade. She took participation during counteroffensive operations with armed forces in Zaporizhzhia region. And when I interviewed her, it's very young woman, she's 26 years old. When I heard a lot of stories and her experience, her pains and challenges she meet every, every day serving in the army, I was shocked. But at the same time I was motivated because all these women with their stories in this book, and not only in this book, they motivate me every day to move, to do my work. And I have very single rule, do what you can with what you have, where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in, in my understandings, but every day I meet incredible leaders, men and women in the army and outside the army. And I understand that we don't have any other option to stop and say, oh my God, we taught it. We exhausting. I can't do anymore, anything. We don't have such chance. And we can't be unfortunately pessimistic because even now, as in the beginning of 2022, we are fighting for our survival as a nation. So no other option.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Thank you for that. That was an incredibly powerful reminder of the stakes and the mindset one has to have to be facing the situation. I want to turn to another military strategery point which is, you know, if you're, if you're in war, you want to minimize fog and fog and friction. It's all, you know, plans. Plans go crazy. Everything's chaos. You don't really know how things are like you're going to shake out. It's all nuts. And we call it the fog of war. And minimizing the fog of war and the frictions, like actually being able to get from point A to point B, getting your stuff to these different places, places, that's another. Minimize the friction, minimize the fog. Your work with these women in the Ukrainian armed forces is really interesting because it points out a friction point that could easily be managed before the crisis, which is things like women's body armor. Making sure that women are actually able to, if they're going to be, if their nation requires them to be trigger pullers and they are ready to go there because that's their calling to do. So let's make sure that they've got body armor that doesn't put them at risk, helps them get the job done. I'd love your thoughts on those lessons, those idea things that, that you think, other capitals. I mean, because frankly, if we look at the Russian threat and we look at NATO and deterrence and all these things, if NATO planners, if alliance players, if US planners don't take these factors into consideration, we are undermining ourselves before the war even starts. So I'd love your thoughts, your ideas on how, what lessons you've learned in terms of preparing a whole of society, defense plan and defensive operations.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Yeah, thank you so much for these questions. Not only body armor. Let's start from underwear in the army.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Yeah.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Because when I recognized as a civilian, in the beginning of full scale invasion that our women defenders have to wear men's uniform, men's boot, men's heavy body armor and even men's underwear, I decided that I want to change the system of provision in defence and security sector. So I started to develop a special uniform according to women's body shapes, underwear, winter uniform and everything that they need to be efficient as a soldier or officer being at the front line, operating combat mission. So of course right now we were capable and we continue to do this. We implement this gender oriented reform during very active war. And we are trying to change the system. Because when I started to do this, I saw very strong wall of sexism in in the army. And we realize that it's a popular not only in Ukrainian army, but in other armies. Anyway, right now, for Ukrainian society and for Ukrainian defense and security sector, women in the army is not an exception, is a normal.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Yeah.

[Irynia Newcovy]

And even now I see how the number of women who joined the army on volunteer basis increasing every month. I can provide you with some very interesting numbers that would be fascinating to.

[Scott Murphy]

Get a hold of.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Ukraine has the biggest number of women who hold combat position in the world.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Wow.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Wow. Only in armed forces we have more than 70,000 women totally in defense and security sector, 130,000 women.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

So 70,000 women in combat formations.

[Irynia Newcovy]

70,000 in armed forces. In armed forces in combat, maybe 50,000 who hold combat position. 50,000. And from this number in 2024, 5,000 women were operating at the same time combat mission at the battlefield. In the beginning of February this year, the number increased in five times. So right now 25,000 women are at the front line. And what I see from this full scale invasion, my main message that women are as capable as men of taking up arms and fighting and show very high level of efficiency from combat medic to intelligence, being a pilot of drones or being. I'm sorry, I have problem with my phone. Sorry. So holding every combat position on equal ground with the man. Of course it's not like ideal system, which is realizing right now in Ukraine, but we are putting a lot of efforts. I believe that in some very near future we will congratulate women who will hold, who will be a commander of battalion or brigade. And of course we will see women with the ranks of general. But anyway, if we are talking about their capability, I would say that after Second World War, Ukraine unfortunately is the only country with such high number of women who involved in combat mission. In operating combat mission. It's very complicated experience, but I believe that it will make our. Our country stronger and women in armed forces will be very important part of defense capability in long term.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

So if I could just tease out one point that you made, because unless you think about these things on a daily basis, it's sort of. I don't know. I didn't appreciate it until I started looking at the more closely. But it's not that women aren't strong enough to wear the men's body armor. Right.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Not only women. Men as well. Yeah. I just want to tell you that it's very complicated for both for men and women to use a very heavy body armor. But if we're talking about women.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Right.

[Irynia Newcovy]

In Ukraine starting from 2000. Yeah. We have another body shape.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Exactly.

[Irynia Newcovy]

And obvious. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

And it's this whole thing of it's not the weight, it's not that women aren't strong enough. It's that literally it's designed in a way that can create pelvic fractures. If it's not because of the way of its design, it can create all sorts of back injuries, those sorts of things. It's literally due to body shape. And there's gaps in men's body armor at the front because of our anatomy.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Can I show you the sample? I have it.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Yeah.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Here? Yeah. Okay. I will do it right now.

[Scott Murphy]

Why not?

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Well, we can, but so it's so bullets, shrapnel can fly in. Right. If you. Yeah.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Look, from here you can see the special. Special damper inside which is minimize pressure in chest area. And here, special part which can protect another part of your body. This is very. Not heavy, but the armor. Five, five kilos, you see.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Wow.

[Scott Murphy]

Wow. I think that's an incredible point. And not even from just the aspect of creating personal protective equipment for females due to the difference in anatomy between males and females. I think this is an important kind of catalyst point because human factors and human engineering and combat equipment is massive across the whole of the force.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Right.

[Scott Murphy]

Like how many times is an individual, throughout the course of the last 20 years of America's conflict, put on a piece of PPE and been like, I can't fight, I can't move. This does not work well for its intended function because it hasn't been properly human engineered. And so I think this is, you know, it's an incredible point arena. And what, what you're doing is at the, you know, the tip of development and human factors in combat and trying to maximize protection and Efficiency and it's. And it's across the whole processing. It's not a gender issue. Correct. Is the human factors in combat engineering and harnessing efficiency.

[Irynia Newcovy]

And I want to say that this special female body armor with very light flights from Israel with three plus class of protection and very like often even men asked me to provide them with this very light flights. And sometimes they can also use female body armor because it's very comfortable for them. But we already started this very long negotiation and communication process with the Ministry of Defense to put some changes in their internal decrees because we need to have like few different models of the body armor which you can use as a Lego, you know, with different part which protect your neck, your back and other parts of your body. And you can use them. And it depends on what concrete combat mission you do at the front line. Because for combat medic units, one type of body armor, when you are in assault brigade, you need another type of body armor and class of protection. And right now we can see that the type of war is different from that war that was in the beginning of full scale invasion. Right now Ukrainians and Russian troops as well, they use new military technologies. It's a war of drones, different type of drones. And our system is working in such way that Ministry of Defense provide our defenders with body armors with weight like 12 kilos and six class of protection. Which means that for example, if you are very close to your enemy, you need to be protected from the bullet of sniper. But right now we don't have such kind of operations because 96% of wounded soldiers are from shrapnels, not from bullets. That's why we need to change, because the war became very technological and of course we need to protect our defenders, men and women as well, in extremely another way.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Yeah, talk about lessons learned. Like having this conversation about body armor driving conversations in other capitals about what body armor needs to look like across the force. I think we would be remiss to not pay attention to that.

[Scott Murphy]

No, absolutely. It just shows that lessons are lessons regardless of who is the instigator for learning that key point. Right. Fighting a war is fighting a war. And we have whole of enterprise lessons learned. And it's important to have catalysts across the spectrum force those new conversations, new fielding and new introduction of human factors in engineering. And so I think that's an incredible thing that's being learned across the world right now.

[Irynia Newcovy]

You know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for interruption, but in Ukraine we have a lot of local manufacturers who Produce and stew different starting from military, from uniforms, boots and including body armors. And they develop all these innovations starting from 2019. And when we show all these kits of uniforms, boots, protection, body armor, etc in European countries, especially in headquarters NATO in Brussels, they are really surprised of equality. Very high quality of everything that was produced in Ukraine. And last time when I was in Brussels in headquarter NATO, 15 ministers of defense and 25ambassadors of EU countries, they asked me if it really was produced in Ukraine. And I answer yes. We have a lot of very professional manufacturers who do it. And it's our main rule. We want to produce everything easy in Ukraine because on these manufacturers are working another women who are internally displaced people and we can provide them with work. This is like win win story because internally displaced women who lost their homes, their jobs and everything they had before full service scale base right now can support another woman who are serving in the army.

[Scott Murphy]

That's an incredible point. It touches back to the whole of society building of resiliency. So your efforts and efforts across the Ukrainian spectrum of government, military and society are ensuring that there isn't a collapse of the enterprise. And in fact industry is increasing. You're producing high quality military grade equipment organically within the confines of Ukraine during a full scale invasion. And so that just touches again on this importance of resilience and whole of society resiliency. Kathleen, if it's all right with you, I'd like to ask one quick question. Sure. I noticed an incredibly cool patch on the plate carrier that you showed that said Arm Women Now. Can you just briefly kind of provide an overview of what that is.

[Irynia Newcovy]

To be? Very short. Arm Women now is a social problem project about equal opportunities, about respect and dignity of women who are serving right now in defense and security sector. And of course one of very important part of Armed Women now activity is advocation of their interest at national and international level as well. My strong belief and I put my efforts to make the voice of Ukrainian women defenders very loud not only in Ukraine, but also the international area during international events. That's why I'm trying to provide our partners and those who support us with additional information about very vital role of women in achieving peace. And Book is one of such instruments how I can do this as well as our YouTube channel. And we continue to support our women defenders because in the way of collecting donations and all the time fundraising campaigns, we provided for free more than 12,000 women defenders at the frontline. So we support women at the battlefield and we support our Ministry of Defense because all we realize that it's very complicated bureaucratic mechanism and system that cannot adapt very fast. But we, as representative of civil society, we can. That's why we do it. And I believe that every woman who is fighting right now with weapons or saving lives as combat medic, she deserve. She deserved this.

[Scott Murphy]

Yeah. I mean, I think that's an inalienable point. Right. Like, if you are willing to sacrifice and make the ultimate sacrifice for your country, you deserve nothing but the best because you sacrifice.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Exactly.

[Scott Murphy]

And you're fighting for all of us. Exactly. Fighting for everyone. And I think, you know, male, female, and our military working dogs, it doesn't matter if you're out there serving on the front line, you have earned the best.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Absolutely.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Can you, can you imagine? I know a lot of like thousands of different women and girls, and we have very young, even in the age of 18, 19, these girls join the army on volunteer basis. I know women who is 45 and they have four or even five children, and they join the army on volunteer basis. So different unique stories with, with extremely different life with children or without children. But anyway, they take very complicated decision and sacrificing, I would say, with everything they have.

[Scott Murphy]

Yeah, it's just an incredible testament to those women and the Ukrainian character as a nation. Just unbelievable. Thank you for thinking that.

[Irynia Newcovy]

Thank you for supporting us.

[Kathleen McGinnis]

Thank you. One of the things that. Obviously there needs to be a lot of work done to help Ukraine win this fight for us. But as we look to the future, the purpose of this series is about helping us understand the lessons from Ukraine for the future of war. And it just strikes me when we've talked about deterring Russia, we talk about porcupining strategies, we talk about mutually assured destruction, we talk about these sorts of whole of society, resilience really does need to be a component of this broader suite of strategies necessary to convince one Russia to not cross the line. And if we don't take that full suite of activities or strategies into account, we will actually be undermining our deterrent. Recall that deterrence is a psychological calculation. We're trying to convince Putin not to cross the line. If you don't have all of these things in order, if you do not have a convincing edifice, right. If you don't have the line clear and that we are unified, that we've got the will to resist, that we will make it hurt, and that we can resort to overwhelming force if necessary, those things have to come together as a coherent package to convince Moscow not to act. And so I commend you, Irina. I commend you, Scott, for thinking about how these different pieces of whole society resilience can come into play and thinking about what this means for deterring and defending our societies.

[Scott Murphy]

Kathleen, I think despite my inclinations as an officer to add something on the back of every statement made by someone before me, we'll just let that stand. That's an incredible way to wrap this up. And what a great insight. Marina, would you like to just add anything else before we kind of say goodbye and thank you for your time?

[Irynia Newcovy]

I just want to add that unfortunately Putin understands only a language of power. So together with our very strong will, with our resilience, we need to have more strong security guarantees and to make stronger Ukrainian army because only if you are powerful at the battlefield, you can start any negotiation with him in another way. It's impossible. That's why he uses and he will cross red lines in the future, not only with Ukraine, but maybe with other European country if we will let him do this. Because right now Ukraine is a wall of security to all European countries in the European Union.

[Scott Murphy]

No, it's a very powerful message. Marina, thank you so much for joining us today. We know how important your time is.

[Irynia Newcovy]

And you know, thank you for invitation. Thank you so much.

[Scott Murphy]

Just a hearing your words represents the best of what we all aspire to be, which is noble service and sacrifice in a higher cause. And that's what you've shown us today and that's what all of the Ukrainian people are doing. And you've given us key insights on what we can learn from developing ground up resiliency, which is the key to that deterrence factor like you touched on. Kathleen. And Kathleen, thank you so much. It's just been wonderful to sit here with you, always hear your expertise and your thoughts and I think there's a lot for us to think about as we kind of move forward into the more complex environment. The 21st century is giving us truth. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for joining this edition of Conflict and Focus. More information is available on the CSIS website. And thank you for joining us.