"RZA"

Summary

SmartLess Podcast Summary: Episode Featuring RZA

Episode Title: RZA
Release Date: June 16, 2025
Hosts: Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Will Arnett
Guest: RZA (Robert Fitzgerald Diggs)

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Introduction and Guest Reveal

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in their signature humorous banter, discussing everyday mishaps related to face recognition and memory lapses. Their light-hearted conversation sets a friendly and relaxed tone before the exciting reveal of the mystery guest.

Will Arnett: "He's a titan of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wu Tang Clan... it's the one and only RZA, you guys."
[Timestamp: 08:37]

RZA's Journey in Music and Film

RZA, a multifaceted artist known for his pivotal role in the Wu Tang Clan and his contributions to film scoring, delves into his expansive career. He discusses his transition from music production to scoring films, emphasizing his passion for storytelling through music.

RZA: "Scoring is the ultimate expression of art. You're trying to tell a story and complement a story with your music."
[Timestamp: 10:39]

He shares insights into his first experience scoring a film, "Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai," highlighting the collaborative process and the challenges of integrating music into cinematic narratives.

RZA: "I never scored a film before. I didn't know when you make a movie, you got to edit, you got to do all these things..."
[Timestamp: 11:34]

Formation and Philosophy of Wu Tang Clan

RZA elaborates on the origins of the Wu Tang Clan, drawing parallels between hip hop and Asian martial arts philosophies. He explains how the group's name and style were inspired by kung fu films and how they aimed to infuse their music with cinematic storytelling.

RZA: "If we take our tongue and make it our sword and the best sword style ever filmed was the Wu Tang style... we could go into the industry and chop everybody heads off."
[Timestamp: 16:07]

He underscores the entrepreneurial spirit of the group, detailing how Wu Tang Clan members pursued individual projects while maintaining a collective energy that propelled their collective success.

RZA: "We was entrepreneurs, you know, from opening up our clothing stores to video games... it was just part of it."
[Timestamp: 21:44]

Once Upon a Time in Shaolin: A Unique Musical Endeavor

One of the most intriguing segments of the episode revolves around RZA's ambitious project, "Once Upon a Time in Shaolin." He recounts the motivation behind creating an album with a single physical copy, aiming to restore value to music in the age of digital streaming.

RZA: "Let’s make an album that will make one single copy. Treat it like the Mona Lisa or an Egyptian scepter, something like that."
[Timestamp: 27:35]

RZA narrates the controversial sale of the album to Mike Scarelli, who later became infamous for price gouging a life-saving medication, leading to legal repercussions and the government's seizure of the album.

RZA: "He sold it and doubled down on his darkness... the government now gets to auction this album as a personal asset of his."
[Timestamp: 32:36]

He discusses the technical aspects of the album being the first NFT (Non-Fungible Token), ensuring its uniqueness and preventing unauthorized distribution.

RZA: "This particular album is on a macro level considered the first NFT... it's like a smart contract built in."
[Timestamp: 33:44]

Directorial Ventures and Future Projects

Transitioning to his work in film, RZA shares his experiences as a director, influenced by studying under Quentin Tarantino. He discusses his latest project, "One Spoon of Chocolate," detailing the creative process, challenges, and aspirations for the film's premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival.

RZA: "This is my fourth one... 'One Spoon of Chocolate'... it's going to premiere at the Tribeca film festival on June 8th."
[Timestamp: 35:09]

RZA emphasizes the importance of passion and perseverance in pursuing artistic endeavors, highlighting the support from his wife in financing his projects.

RZA: "The best way to do it is to do it... my wife was the producer of the film."
[Timestamp: 39:18]

Philosophy on Music Sampling and Industry Practices

A significant portion of the conversation delves into RZA's views on music sampling and the challenges posed by copyright laws. He critiques the existing framework, advocating for a more fair distribution of rights and compensation for sampled artists.

RZA: "If you sample a song, like a James Brown song... then the musicians never get compensated. It’s just the publishing company."
[Timestamp: 57:19]

He proposes a "floor and ceiling" model to regulate sampling rights, ensuring that original artists receive appropriate compensation based on the extent of their contribution.

RZA: "The floor could be set at even 20%... but you should never take more than half."
[Timestamp: 58:56]

Ballet Through Mud: Merging Hip Hop with Classical Arts

RZA introduces his classical album, "Ballet Through Mud," which reimagines his early lyrical work into a ballet performance. He describes the inspiration behind the project, drawing from his high school lyrics to create a narrative-driven ballet that explores themes of youth, experimentation, and tragedy.

RZA: "I found a notebook of old lyrics... I can't rap these. What should I do? I decided to compose it into, like, a ballet."
[Timestamp: 61:07]

He explains the creative process, from writing the story inspired by his lyrics to collaborating with the Colorado Symphony Orchestra, culminating in performances that blend hip hop narratives with classical choreography.

RZA: "We did perform it in LA. We did in Colorado... it was part of an artist in residence."
[Timestamp: 66:15]

Closing Thoughts and Inspirational Advice

As the conversation winds down, RZA offers motivational insights for listeners aspiring to excel in their creative pursuits. He emphasizes the importance of mastering one's passion and understanding the interconnectedness of various artistic disciplines.

RZA: "Mastery of something... If you master one thing and you mastered it, then you'll understand the relation of all things."
[Timestamp: 48:56]

He concludes by acknowledging the entrepreneurial spirit of the Wu Tang Clan and the significance of collective effort in achieving sustained success.

RZA: "Go back and look at Wu Tang's... the last lesson for me is... to combine that art together and then direct it as a brand."
[Timestamp: 22:28]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sean Hayes: "Maybe now you'll think twice before judging a book by its cover."
  [Timestamp: 00:01]

• RZA: "Music is art and it should be treated as such. It's not just a privilege."
  [Timestamp: 28:00]

• RZA: "My lyrics, the artist has to connect the energy to the vibrations that go through... it's about the Wu Tang way."
  [Timestamp: 55:22]

• RZA: "Artistry is a wavelength... the artist knows what to pass through his vessel."
  [Timestamp: 49:09]

Conclusion

This episode of SmartLess offers an in-depth look into RZA's extensive contributions to music, film, and beyond. From his foundational role in shaping hip hop with the Wu Tang Clan to his innovative ventures in film scoring and directing, RZA exemplifies artistic versatility and entrepreneurial spirit. The discussion not only highlights his creative processes and philosophies but also provides valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs of maintaining artistic integrity in a rapidly evolving industry.

Whether you're a long-time fan or new to RZA's work, this episode delivers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of one of hip hop's most influential figures.

Transcript

[Sean Hayes]

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[Jason Bateman]

All right, so guys, this is the start and we need a good solid cold open. Anybody have any interesting or Funny. Something to say get our. Get our listener excited to.

[Sean Hayes]

Or surprise them, like. Yeah, well, it was surprising that it rained a lot yesterday.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, good. No, it will. Anything. Can you help?

[Will Arnett]

No, we're still going to be digging ourselves out of a rain yesterday hole that Sean put us. But anyway, welcome to Smartless. Smart, smart, smart.

[Jason Bateman]

Less.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, hi.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, hi.

[Jason Bateman]

That's O.J.

[Sean Hayes]

I'M wearing a hat that says oh, hi. I told you guys last time I was in Ohio yesterday. I just got back last night for Kevin's birthday. My friend Kevin's birthday.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, man, what a story.

[Jason Bateman]

You were in Ohio?

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, do you like it there?

[Jason Bateman]

For whose birthday? Kevin Hart's.

[Sean Hayes]

Kevin. Kevin Neustat. It's a friend of.

[Will Arnett]

He doesn't pay attention. He doesn't remember. You mentioned Kevin and Carrie a million times. He has still no idea who they are.

[Sean Hayes]

That's right. You met them.

[Jason Bateman]

Well, why would I know who they are?

[Sean Hayes]

Because you sat and talked with Kevin for a few hours.

[Will Arnett]

You talked to him for a few hours, but he's not working at Netflix.

[Jason Bateman]

Do you know how many people you guys have sat and talked to for hours that you have no idea who they are? You can't remember them.

[Will Arnett]

Remember there used to be somebody years ago. I won't say the gender, but there were, because I don't want to give it away, but there was somebody who you kept introducing yourself to over years, and finally they got mad at you, and you were like, hey, f you.

[Jason Bateman]

Really?

[Will Arnett]

You think I fucking remember? Do you remember that?

[Jason Bateman]

No.

[Will Arnett]

And eventually you're like, I don't fucking know you.

[Jason Bateman]

Well, I can't.

[RZA]

I mean.

[Jason Bateman]

I'm certainly not unique to being, you know, bad at remembering names.

[Will Arnett]

No, no, no, no. You're not unique. Same.

[Jason Bateman]

Right.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, you're great.

[Jason Bateman]

You're incredible at dates.

[Will Arnett]

I'm good at dates. But the, the names and stuff. No, I, I. Yeah, dates is weird. It's. I don't know what that is.

[Jason Bateman]

And also, you know, and I have particular trouble, like, you know, guys don't typically change their look often present company excluded.

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[Jason Bateman]

But. So it's not difficult for me to remember a dude's face over the course of a few years. I've had, like, two hairdos my whole life.

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[Jason Bateman]

But, you know, women get to change the color of their hair all the time and the cut of their hair and they accessorize.

[Will Arnett]

You got a few hair don'ts too. I mean, let's be honest.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, yeah, they're all online. Enjoy.

[Sean Hayes]

It is one of the worst Things I ever did was years and years and years ago, we remodeled our house. And I walk out the front door, and there's this girl running. I may have said this already. There's this girl running down the sidewalk right towards me, jogging. And she goes, hey, Sean. And I'm like, hey. And she goes, you finished? Meaning to the house? And like, yeah. Yeah. How would. How did they even know I was remodeling? And she goes, I'd love to see it sometime. And I'm like, wait a minute.

[RZA]

What? What?

[Sean Hayes]

This just girl jogging randomly. And I'm like, do I know you? And she goes, it's Julia, your neighbor for the past 20 years.

[Jason Bateman]

How bad did you feel?

[Sean Hayes]

And I said. I said, jay. I go, the worst thing you could ever come back with, I said, which was. Did you change your hair? It was just terrible. It was horrible.

[Will Arnett]

Last week, when I was in New York and I was riding a bike through the Village, I'm riding along, this.

[Jason Bateman]

Girl goes, will, are you shooting additional photography for Flake?

[Will Arnett]

No. And I go, and I'm riding f you, bro. And I'm riding my bike through the Village, and this girl goes, will. And I look over, and she goes, hey. And so I turn over, like, I steer the bike over to her, and I go, hey, what's going on? I'm like, who? And then she goes. I get right up close to her, she goes, you don't know me.

[Jason Bateman]

And I go, love the show.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah. And so I go, okay, see you later. So then I go by, right? So then I go, and it's a city bike, and I park it in the thing, and I'm walking down a block later, I'm walking by, and there's this grown guy sitting outside this place, and she's wearing a baseball cap. She looks up at me and she goes. Kind of waves like, hi. And I go, hey. And I keep going. I get home, there's a text, and it's this friend of mine, Emily. And she goes, did you not know that was me? So I thought I recognized the person who was a stranger, and the person I knew, I blew off.

[Jason Bateman]

So is it just the worst?

[Sean Hayes]

It's face blindness. It's face blindness. I swear I have it.

[Jason Bateman]

Or are we just rude dicks? Or are we just getting old and we're losing our minds?

[Will Arnett]

I think I've always been.

[Sean Hayes]

I think it's all of it.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, I think it's all of it.

[Jason Bateman]

Wicked combination of all of it.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, but I'm terrible. I know.

[Will Arnett]

You're the worst what's the subject?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, can we fill in the blank?

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, can we.

[Jason Bateman]

Let me go first.

[Will Arnett]

Can I go blanket on that? You're just.

[Sean Hayes]

I kind of think everybody looks the same. I swear. I think I have a little bit of it. Like face blindness. I really do.

[Jason Bateman]

No, but that's a real thing. I know one person that, that, that's like that, right?

[Sean Hayes]

I think, I think we're talking.

[Jason Bateman]

We know the same person. Yeah, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, and I said, now I'm blanking on their face. Okay, listen, listen, listen, Wait, wait.

[Sean Hayes]

But I asked that guy really quick. I asked that guy, I was like, so if I walk out of the room and come back because he, he has like been diagnosed with space blindness.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

I go, if I walk out of the room and come back in, you won't know it's me. He's like, no. I'm like, really?

[Jason Bateman]

And this guy's making six figures a year.

[Sean Hayes]

I know.

[Will Arnett]

By the way, again, not to go too far, there is a documentary that came out in the 80s about this guy in England who had a memory of seven seconds. And so it's. Poor fellow, he had an injury, head injury and it's crazy. And his wife would like, she eventually lived on his own, had to be taken care of. But she would go out of the room, come in, she'd come in, she'd go. He'd go, hi. Oh my God. He'd hugger, hug, hugger. She'd go to make a cup of tea, she comes back, hello.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, the most annoying man to ever live with.

[Will Arnett]

She was the only person that he remembered. So it's. You can, it's on YouTube. It's crazy.

[Jason Bateman]

Could you imagine having face blindness and the 7 second memory?

[Will Arnett]

Dude, it's the craziest, craziest thing ever. Anyway, that's such a. Speaking about crazy, we have a crazy talented guest on the, on the show today. I've been looking forward to having this guest for so long. This person is a true. He's a visionary. He's done everything in music and film. He's ventured into horror core. He's produced solo albums, he's made a mark in film and tv. He's scored a lot of great films. He scored Ghost Dog, Way of the Samurai, he scored the both Kill Bill movies. He starred last year in a award winning comedy, Prabhelmista. He's just wrapped his own film, One Spoon of Chocolate. He's a published author. He released a classic classical album last year, a ballet through the Mud, which is unbelievable. Guys, he's A titan of everything, not just the industry. He's a founding member of the Wu Tang Clan, who not only shaped the genre with their groundbreaking debut album, Enter the Wu Tang, but he's also crafted a sound that's booming beats and chilling samples and influenced countless musicians. It's the one and only rza, you guys.

[Jason Bateman]

Wow. Whoa.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, Whoa.

[RZA]

I guess I can take off my camera head.

[Will Arnett]

There he is.

[Jason Bateman]

There it is. Oh, boy. John Heilman going to be thrilled.

[Sean Hayes]

This is so cool.

[Jason Bateman]

Hello, good morning.

[RZA]

Good morning, good afternoon. I'm actually in on the east coast, so it's. Good afternoon.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Good afternoon. Oh, man. Thank you for joining us today. What an absolute thrill to have you on the show today, man.

[RZA]

My pleasure. And I will start off by saying I have a great memory.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, we're the same age.

[RZA]

Exactly.

[Jason Bateman]

Will you remember for me right now what it was like to score both Kill Bills? I mean, that's like. Was it the old. Was it. Is that the only film that you. The films that you've scored?

[RZA]

No, that was. No, I went on to score maybe a dozen after that in some TV shows, etc.

[Jason Bateman]

Do you love that?

[RZA]

Yeah, scoring is. Scoring is the ultimate. The ult. One of the ultimate expressions of art. Right. You're trying to tell a story and complement a story with your music. Yes, I love it.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. But I. But they sometimes accused have to only, like, be 10, 20, 30 seconds or, like. Do you feel you're, like, boxed in with that?

[RZA]

No, I think, to be quite frank, it's. You know, you may have a cue that's just a cymbal. That's the cue, right?

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah.

[RZA]

But you may have one that's like, you know, that's a whole Nutcracker suite. You know what I mean? A whole big sequence. So, I mean, that's the beauty of music you think about. I mean, one of our great composers, John Williams, he was. And it's just a few notes.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

So was Ghost Dog, Way of the Samurai. Was that your first one that you did?

[RZA]

Yeah. So Jun, John, Moose brought me in to score that film. I never scored a film before. I was pretty. I didn't know what it was, to be honest with you. I didn't know when you make a movie, you got to edit, you got to do all these things, right. And Jim used to want the music, and he'd be like, you know, come to the editing room. Which is basically the editing is a 9 to 5 job. Maybe a 9 to 8.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah.

[RZA]

I'd be coming like, Midnight, you know what I mean? Everybody be gone. But at those days, we had the music on a dat. So I would just have it on the DAT player, pull up to the place and give him the dats. And he'd be like, you know, it's midnight. I'm like, well, you know, here it is.

[Jason Bateman]

And why is that? Why is it historically, you know, music, studio sessions, late, late in the night. What is that? I don't understand.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, musicians. Yeah, yeah. You guys have like a different clock.

[RZA]

Yeah, I mean, my musician clock was ridiculous. I mean, it was embarrassing. To be quite frank. I remember as I'm scoring movies, I started sampling some music from one of John Woo's movie. The Killer was one of my favorite. The Killer, Hard Boiled. Great. Yeah, great movies, great titles by the great director John Woo.

[Will Arnett]

And.

[RZA]

And we became friends and he came to New York and he's like, you know, I wanna have. Let's have dinner. And I said, cool, let's have dinner. I said, all right, you know, meet you at the restaurant, you know, 6:30 in Manhattan. And at the time I was in the studio, that was like an hour away. And I just got caught up in the studio. And then it's like nine o' clock. They're like, wait, you supposed to be at dinner with John?

[Sean Hayes]

And I'm like, okay, yeah, you kind of get sucked into it. And it's like this, like. Yeah. My husband Scotty, he also composes scores and stuff for stuff. And he'll back there in like eight hours, fly by. You don't even know if you know it.

[RZA]

But John was such a gentleman, Sean, that I got there around 11 and he, he held the restaurant open and no way. Sat down and had a great meal.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, that's amazing.

[RZA]

And he gave me some wisdom about time.

[Will Arnett]

Well, I was gonna say some wisdom about time. I like that.

[Sean Hayes]

About time. Which is so funny because all, all music is in time. And we're all.

[Will Arnett]

Exactly.

[Sean Hayes]

We're all late.

[Will Arnett]

So. So it's funny, you know, Riza, when I. When I think about it, because I was, I was asking about the first film that you scored, which was Ghost Dog. And I was gonna say, how did you get into it? But it makes sense. Cause you mentioned like John Woo's films being a huge influence. I mean, there is a cinematic influence in the Wu Tang music, right? I mean, that's part of your origin story. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[RZA]

Yeah, I mean, my aspirations at the time of making music was trying to make a movie. Trying to make my Album play like a movie.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, wow.

[RZA]

You know, in New York, a lot of us kind of would drive to, like, D.C. to the Howard homecoming or to Morgan State College, you know what I mean? Or go off to Connecticut. It was like, that's the weekend thing to do, right? That's where the chicks are at. My idea was to make people who are driving that journey to listen to my music and get a movie in their head and pick up some game, pick up some slang, pick up some visions. So I was always trying to make movies. And my first five albums, if you listen to them, you know, they always start with a beginning. There's a theme. Like, there's an album we did called Cuban Links, which is really a mafia movie. It starts off with three guys. One for you, one for me. One guy cheating them, right? He's like, you know, the old thing. One for you, one for me, two for you. One, two for me. Three.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, Right, right, right, right.

[RZA]

And. And it goes on. And the way the album plays out, it's like, these guys are gonna. Gonna pull a heist. Somebody's gonna die. Like, Once Upon a Time in America. The other two guys gonna go grab the rest of the crew, the Woo Gambinos, bring them back, and then pull a bigger heist for 2 million, and everybody gonna ride off into the sunset. And that album was so influential that hip hop began to change their names. Like every. Like, we was the first ones to change their names, like the. From Wu Tang to the Wu Gambinos. And every artist started following that trend.

[Will Arnett]

Wow, wow, wow.

[Sean Hayes]

That's so cool.

[Will Arnett]

I mean, so you guys. So I mentioned in the. In the Intro that in 93, you guys released Enter the Wu Tang, and that kind of changed. That kind of changed the game, certainly. It must have changed your life in a big way. It was. You had already been making music for years, right, with those guys. Yeah, but that. But that was the first big release that went kind of crazy. Must have. What was that experience like?

[RZA]

Yeah, it was. I tried to enter the industry before just as a solo artist. Prince Rakim, you know, sold it about 10,000 records. Got a couple of, you know, a couple of shows and a couple of groupies. Right? That was at that age. 19 years old. That's all you need. Bad start, but yeah. Right. Couldn't pay my rent, though. But I went back to my crew and I was just like, you know, we had this thing that in the neighborhood called the Wu Tang slang, and we was all big kung fu movie lovers. And I Just caught an inspiration that we should take. What's our childhood love. Take the concept of Asian cinema from Hong Kong or from Japan. And since our lyrics are, you know, from your mouth and your mouth is like a sword, right? It says that in the book of Revelations. It says out of the mouth comes the double edged sword. So I was like, if, if we take our tongue and make it our sword and the best sword style ever filmed was the Wu Tang style and we become the Wu Tang Clan, we could go into the industry and chop everybody heads off. You know, my brothers was like, sounds good to me.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, well that was, that was my, that was my, my question because I'm, I'm, I'm a dumb, a dumb soft white guy from Los Angeles and I, I, I, I, I not know about soft. Well, you know, I know that's very true.

[Will Arnett]

That's a really description of you.

[Jason Bateman]

I'm not, I'm not, as the kids say, I'm not down, I'm not hip to it all. And so I'm, I'm not clear on Asian cinema, on, on kung Fu, on, on the genesis of the title of the band and stuff. So I was, I was going to ask you about that. How, how, so how did your love of kung fu and, and Asian films and how does that, how does that. Cause you wouldn't necessarily put hip hop with Asian cinema in the same group, right?

[RZA]

Typically, I mean, you kind of have to. If you think about it, right, if you go back into hip hop according to hip hop history, it says it started in 1973 in that summer. But in that same summer Bruce Lee Enter the dragon hits 42nd Street. And that same summer Fred Williamson Black Caesar hits and also the Godfather is in the theaters. Mean streets, right. So the art of the cinema is still cohesive with the art of the music. There's actually a thread because most of us are in those theaters. And then when we go back to our neighborhoods, the things that we are gaining from cinema is finding its way into our art. If you look at some of the early breakdance moves, you'll see that some of those moves were seen in a martial art film and then of course took it to another level.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, that's amazing. I didn't think of that. That's so true.

[Will Arnett]

Of course you didn't think of it.

[Jason Bateman]

People think about a lot.

[Will Arnett]

No, dude, you don't know anything. Just listen to rhythm and learn.

[Jason Bateman]

Okay, that is true. Breakdancing is. Yeah. You could duck a lot of punch. Yeah. Down there on the floor.

[Will Arnett]

So Then, so then, so, so that makes sense. And so then you guys do you. You produce and you form Wu Tang and you. And you release some records and just a huge, like massively influential. But also what's interesting to me is and. And tell these guys and educate all of us a little bit about not only were you guys doing Wu Tang, but then as you're doing, I mean, you're doing all sorts of solo projects under a bunch of different names. Right. And you me mentioned Prince Rain, which was your. That you released before, but also some stuff after. Right, and also, but also other guys from Wu Tang, you produce their stuff. Like oftentimes people leave a band and go and do something on their own. On their own, on their own. But you were still producing everybody's music, is that true?

[RZA]

Yeah, I was with. So since the martial art world or the Shaolin philosophy was so embedded in us, we took it and applied it to our lives. So for instance, Staten island, my hometown, we renamed it Shaolin. You know what I mean? That's why you see, Pete Davidson has a Shaolin tattoo, of course. Oh wow, he's from Staten Island. But we renamed it Shaolin. So Shaolin is considered the temple, the. Well, they would say, from which all martial art springs from. It's the strongest philosophy place that even before Zen made it to Japan, it was developed in Shaolin. And so. So in Shaolin they had the monks, but the lead of the monks was called the abbot. And so my Wu Tang brothers called me the Abbot. You know what I mean? So as the Abbot, it's my job to make the best decisions, the best direction of which way we go. And as the producer, I went on to produce of course, the first album, 36 Chambers. It went platinum. So going platinum, of course is a bong bong. Right. So then after that, of course, I became a sort out the producer. But what I did was keep my energy contained within my crew. So I went on to produce Method man, first album, double platinum, Faquan platinum, Old Dirty, Basset platinum, JZA platinum. Gold, space platinum. So that's unbelievable. Yeah, so I might have did about seven platinum albums back to back. I don't think too many people probably did that, so that's a blessing. But it was us. It was a contained energy, you know what I mean?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

I remember talking to Seth Rogen when they had their breakout, he made a joke because him and his crew, who were listeners of the Wu Tang Clan, they called themselves the Joo Tang Clan. He said. He said they all lived together and him and Evan and everybody, they actually took that concept and did the same thing and continue hit after hitting. And I think that's a great thing for any group of artists, is if you could combine that art together and then direct it as a brand. You will increase your fan base, of course, but also give each one of you a chance to go through the same tunnel.

[Will Arnett]

That's so cool. I love that there's a sort of like. Sort of like a. You harness the power of the collective a little bit and you don't let it dissipate. You kind of keep it and you all kind of move and then all boats rise. Right. You know what I mean?

[Jason Bateman]

And what would we call our little clan here? Or like the Chin Chin Clan?

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Sean Hayes]

By the way, you mentioned, I really like Chin Chin.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, well, Chin Chin went out of business. Did you see that?

[Jason Bateman]

Well, no, they just shut down the.

[Will Arnett]

Shut down the one they did.

[Sean Hayes]

They shut down the one in Beverly Hills.

[Will Arnett]

Get through the interview, get your sodium somewhere else. Don't worry about that.

[Jason Bateman]

And we will be right back.

[Sean Hayes]

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[Will Arnett]

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[Sean Hayes]

And now back to the show.

[Will Arnett]

So you talk about Shaolin. I didn't know any of that. That is such a cool concept, dude. I. I'm. I'm so blown away by it. I'm like riveted. In. In. You guys recorded your seventh album was Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, right? And you made one copy?

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Do you guys know about this story? Sean and Jason, do you know about this?

[Sean Hayes]

No, no, no, no.

[Will Arnett]

Can you. Can you tell these guys a little bit about. Because it's one of the coolest stor music.

[Jason Bateman]

And then that guy with a controversial purchase of it.

[Sean Hayes]

Correct. I don't know this. I don't know this.

[RZA]

Yes, a very controversial purchase.

[Sean Hayes]

Please, please tell.

[Will Arnett]

Will you tell these guys what happened, what that album is about and why you did it all?

[RZA]

Okay. First, you know, once streaming took over music, you know, music went from being worth 2 cent a record spend on your radio to being worth.000, 0.4.

[Sean Hayes]

Okay, sure.

[RZA]

So it was totally devalued. And a lot of artists were suffering because of that devaluation at this time. And for me, Napster. Pardon? If you think about Napster, that was the foundation of.

[Jason Bateman]

He'll bark out moments of knowledge.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, you're like my grandmother in the other room.

[Jason Bateman]

Wait, I know that.

[Sean Hayes]

First one. Yeah.

[RZA]

After everything got devalued, we tried to figure out a way to bring value back to music. And the idea was music is art and it should be treated as such. And it's not something that. It's not just a privilege. Right. Because the creation of it is such a process. Like for a Wu Tang album to make it, you gotta get nine to 20 people together, the engineers. And it's an endeavor like a film, right. It costs a lot of money, right. To make it. And then the goal is to sell it so you could continue to make it again. You know what I mean? So anyway, it got so devalued that we was like, well, let's make an album that will make one single copy. Treat it like a Simonea Lisa or an Egyptian scepter, something like that. It belonged in a museum. And the only way that you can now get it, you have to go to it. You have to go. See?

[Sean Hayes]

This is amazing.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, that's cool.

[RZA]

And. And we auctioned it. The funny thing is, when we auctioned it, we auctioned it to a guy named Mike Scarelli.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[RZA]

Now, Scarelli, at the time when he bought the album, I gotta confess this because I don't talk about this a lot at the time I shook his hand, he wasn't known yet like I met him. It was a few different. So you know, billionaires that was gonna buy this album from this Sotheby's Padaway auction type of thing. And he was probably the poorest amongst them. He only worth about 200 million at the time. But he was into it, right? And he told me, he said, I'm gonna buy the last Enigma machine, I'm gonna buy the churning papers and I'm gonna buy your single album all in one week. And I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna create something that's gonna. For him. He's gonna become like a new super villain or something. He didn't say villain though, but he was like, he's gonna take these, these elements and he's going to create something crazy. And he went and formed this company, the Turning company, et cetera, et cetera. And I shook hands on him in that same company. A few months later, before we announced the purchase and everything, because we had a scheduled date of closing, shall we call it? A few months later, this guy shows up on the news as the evilest man in the world. He took the part price of a medicine that was maybe $15 a pill.

[Sean Hayes]

That guy, that guy.

[RZA]

And he turned it to 2000, $4000 pill. And the saddest thing about it was that this pill was for our citizens who have hiv, right? I remember that it was a dire need for this pill for them. And so, so basically he was burning down a village. I mean, you could put it to that analogy that he's burning down villages by this price gouging. But he had already purchased the album. So now. Yeah, so now, so now he sells it. And then I did say this to him though. I said, listen, I saw his name was Martin Scrutiny. I said, listen, Martin, you do a lot of bad things, but bro, the Wu Tang is good, okay? If I was you, I would take this album and do something good with it. Meaning he could give it to the people. It can't be sold because we made an 88 year non commercialization law for it. So he can't sell it, right? He can't like make mass produce.

[Sean Hayes]

I know, it's so cool. That is amazing.

[RZA]

But he didn't decide to do nothing good. He doubled down on his darkness and he got into a big fight with Ghostface Killer and, and all the other Wu Tang brothers. And then he you know, he took Hillary's hair and whatever. He just went all the way down until he went to jail. And then the government seized the album.

[Jason Bateman]

Good.

[RZA]

And they kept it.

[Jason Bateman]

What?

[RZA]

And then. So he paid 2 million for the album. So at the time it was the most expensive album in history.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, for sure.

[RZA]

But when he went to jail, the government now needed to pay all of his, you know, his liens or default judgments, whatever he had on him. And so the government now gets to auction this album as a personal asset of his.

[Sean Hayes]

Okay. All right.

[RZA]

And they auction it and someone buys it for $4 million.

[Jason Bateman]

Wow.

[RZA]

No way.

[Sean Hayes]

Okay, okay.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

What do you know?

[Jason Bateman]

So who's got it and where is it?

[RZA]

It was a, it was a group of people called the Pleaser Dao. Okay. So they have it now and they're just, you know, hopefully they will take the advice of showing it to the people, putting it in museums and that.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah. Didn't they do an exhibit or something? They took it to somewhere like Tasmania or something. Is that true?

[RZA]

Yeah, they took it to Tasmania and exhibited. You're right. Yeah. And people flew in for that.

[Jason Bateman]

So has the public been able to.

[RZA]

Hear it so far? Maybe about 600 people have heard it.

[Sean Hayes]

Dude, that's amazing. Like, how do you, how do you. That's an incredible story. How do you, how do you protect the person who owns it from copying it and kind of, I don't know, it just got leaked or, you know, they, and then they act, you know.

[RZA]

But there's a contract, there's a. This particular album is on a macro level considered the first nft.

[Sean Hayes]

Ah, very good. I understand.

[RZA]

So if you understand. Yeah, so that's the situation with it. And so it's like a smart contract built in, you know what I mean?

[Sean Hayes]

And this was your idea. I mean it's such an incredible forward thinking idea. It's like, I know, it's brilliant.

[RZA]

Me and my. And my student silver rings. I won't take all the credit. It was a combination of ideas that led to it. So.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. Would you ever do it again?

[RZA]

I don't know.

[Jason Bateman]

What about, what about, what about. What about what radio had. Didn't Radio Radiohead did something was where they made an album and they put it up on the Internet for free. Basically said, pay whatever you want. And that kind of freedom made me, I think, I think I ended up paying like 50 bucks for it or something like that. Like, just like if you tell me I don't have to do anything, that.

[Will Arnett]

Was the perfect thing. You're the perfect sucker man.

[Jason Bateman]

Exactly.

[Will Arnett]

You know, that's why your nickname is. Is DJ Sucker Ding Bad. Hey. I mean, God, that is such a. You're right, Sean. Like you said, it's so forward thinking. And you've. I mean, you constantly have looked different ways to express yourself as an artist and kind of do things outside the box you've acted in. I was looking it up. I mean, I don't know, 50 things, 60 things. As an actor. You just tell us a little bit about your film that's coming out that you directed.

[RZA]

Thank you. First, let me say this to y' all gentlemen. First of all, Jason, I'm a big fan of yours.

[Jason Bateman]

Come on.

[RZA]

Your timing, your style. I just love your style. I watch seen almost everything you do. And so just want to let you know that you got a fan on the side, this side of the microphone.

[Jason Bateman]

Thank you, pal.

[RZA]

And for myself, you know, I got a chance to study underneath Quentin Tarantino for about six years, and I caught the directing bug and understood what it could be. And I did my first film, of course, in 2011, came out 2012, called the man with the Iron Fist. And I realized that directing movies is actually the epitome of expression art because you have to be lyrical in the words, colorful, in the production design and costume design. Music is a part of it, the storytelling element, the energy of getting other people to portray an idea that's written and describe it. It's like the total use of my brain for me. And so I became in love with it. And now this is my fourth directorial film. It's called One Spoon of Chocolate.

[Will Arnett]

Wait. Oh, this is your fourth film?

[RZA]

This is my fourth one, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Wow.

[RZA]

Yeah. And this one, probably my boldest one. Pretty bold to kind of take a chance like this. And it took 13 years to get to this point. Like, once I finished man with the Iron Fist, I wanna, like. So, you know, Universal gave me the money to make the movie. And there was like, you know, when it came out the first week, I think Hurricane Sandy hit. And so to me. So the east coast was kind of fucked up for me.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

And so. So I didn't hit the numbers we wanted to hit. I think we probably ended up around 30 million total in box office on Sorry to Talk Numbers. That's what's going to kind of give. We ended up about 30 million total in box office on a movie that cost about 17 million. Right?

[Will Arnett]

Pretty good.

[RZA]

Not. Well, okay. Not for Universal. For Universal. I paid the lights that. That day.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, but exactly.

[RZA]

I waited Till it recouped. Before I went back and sat down with the executive who was in charge of. Gave me the green light, which is Mr. Adam Fogerson. And I sat down, and he said, okay, you know, you broke. You did cool. Okay. Nobody's over here. You know, we're not jumping up and down. No. Are we sad? Right? I said, okay, I got it. Now I'd like to try another one. And so he said, okay, let me hear some ideas. And I pitched the ideas, and one of them was one spoon of chocolate. The other ones didn't really gravitate, but he said, that one seems like something you could chase. And then I started writing it, and I got writer's block at page 40, and it took almost, you know, this'll be 13 years from the day of me starting it to it now being available. And it just kept taking time and time and time, and it didn't fully materialize until two summers ago. I'm on a tour bus with Nas, and we're doing a New York State of Mind. We're traveling across America. And I'm just. And my pen just started flowing. And so I wrote the whole movie. My wife was right beside me, just sitting right there. And we got home, and I said, okay, I got a movie written, and we had a chance to. We had some good economics blessings in our lives. And so I said, well. Well, she was looking at another house. She likes to get nice houses, and that's kind of her thing. And so I said, well, I wrote the movie. You want to get another house or you want to make a movie?

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[RZA]

She said, well, what do you want to do? I said, to be honest, I really want to make. Make a movie, like, with no inter. With no interruptions, like, just go ahead and do it. And she said, okay. She gave me the green light. She's the producer of the film, so.

[Jason Bateman]

Me and my wife, she's financed.

[RZA]

Yeah. So she's. Yeah. Self finance from, you know, leveraging some assets. And we did it, and we shot in Atlanta. We finished it, and it's going to premiere at the Tribeca film festival on June 8th. I'm super excited about it.

[Jason Bateman]

Awesome. And so are you going to be looking for distribution at that festival, or have you already sold it?

[RZA]

Yeah, Looking for. Yes. It's going to be like the first time we show it, and we're looking for distribution, so. So, you know, I hate to use the word hopefully, but hopefully.

[Jason Bateman]

What's it about? What was the pitch you gave to Adam and did it remain the same Once you got past the page 40, or did it morph into something else?

[RZA]

You know what? It actually. I guess without giving a spoiler, it morphed into 200 pages.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, wow. For the listener, usually a movie script is about 110.

[RZA]

Yeah, it morphed about 200 pages. And I think I got about 110 pages that we'll see when we look at this thing. Yeah, that's amazing.

[Jason Bateman]

And now Kill Bill was famously, what, 200 and something. And so he had to split it up into two parts. Yeah, right.

[RZA]

Yeah. I actually read the 220 page. Kill Bill.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

Which, like I said, so Tarantino is my. My professor. I call him the God, my godfather of film.

[Jason Bateman]

He's incredible. Love to have you on the show. Quentin, if you're listening.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, he's incredible.

[RZA]

He gotta come. He gotta come to us.

[Jason Bateman]

He's got it.

[Sean Hayes]

But now I'm always amazed when people like us, meaning in that artists are in the entertainment business or whatever that create the stuff like your films and music and everything else, and us, TV shows, films, whatever we do, and that at some point in your life, you became aware of the business side of it. And what was that point? And who or who was that person? Were you like. Because when I was on the set of Will and Grace, it's a TV show I did a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

[Will Arnett]

Hey.

[RZA]

A masterpiece. A masterpiece.

[Sean Hayes]

We. After. It took about five, six seasons for me to kind of look. For me to look around, and I was kind of like, wait a minute. I was really young, and I was like, how did this all happen? Cause I was just an actor who memorized my lines and showed up and went home. And then I was like, wait, how did this come together? Like, whose idea? And then the phone call. Then I got really interested. I was really young. I got interested in the business side of how to produce something and make something. So what was that moment for you? Or was there a person you were like, wait a minute, how did they do that? And then it kind of snowballed for me.

[RZA]

Yeah. I think it was a couple of points for me, you know, first in music, of course. Right. As a producer. No, you could. You could control, let's just say, like I said, making an album. Maybe it's 20 people. Right. But when I was composing films, the thing with Kill Bill is that I wasn't. No, I wasn't going to be the composer. Let me just be clear. Me and Quentin just used to watch movies together, and he gave me that script and When I read the script of Kill Bill, it was just such an amazing script. I just said, yo, anything you may need from me, I'm here. I said, also, I would love to see how you're gonna bring this to life. Right. At the time, we were just buddies, film buddies. And he was like, yeah, sure. You know, if you show up on set, you know, you go be the guy, the eyes and ears behind me.

[Sean Hayes]

Wow.

[RZA]

And now they were shooting in China, in Beijing, but I showed up.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. Yeah, great.

[RZA]

And then I'm watching him. I'm watching Rob Robert do the dp, and I'm the guy who's there with no job.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[RZA]

So I got to study every job. I'm just chilling, hanging, watching, and studying. And I realized that this was.

[Sean Hayes]

And how old were you then?

[RZA]

Oh, normal man. Yeah. This is to kill bill. I'm 32 at least. Right? 30.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

So I'm a man.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

But I mean, I'm not a kid. Meaning. But, you know, I was. I was evolved as a. I guess you can say this too, Sean.

[Will Arnett]

Right.

[RZA]

That you said after five or six years. Right, right. You're not economically thinking about those problems no more.

[Sean Hayes]

That's. That's right.

[RZA]

Okay. Love is good in life, most likely. Right, right. And so. And the art is starting to really fill. Fulfilling, like a different type of fulfillment, almost a calling. Right. And so that's what. That's what's happening to me. My love life is good. My economics is good. And my art is insatiable, though. It wants more. It wants more. And so that's what led me down that path. And then, of course, as a businessman, I think, you know, if you look. Go back and look at Wu Tanga's is. You know, from the beginning, we was entrepreneurs, you know, from opening up our clothing stores to video games, like, all those things was just part of it. And then the last lesson for me, and I'll just share this with your audience. Why that you would say, why the heck would you self finance a film? Which is probably. Everybody says, don't do that. That's like. There's a book on that.

[Sean Hayes]

Right, right. It's the first chapter.

[RZA]

Yeah, exactly.

[Will Arnett]

Right.

[RZA]

But, yeah, I got the chance from the year of 2018 to 2023 to be the showrunner of my own TV show. Right.

[Jason Bateman]

Which one?

[RZA]

It's Wu Tang of the American Saga on Hulu.

[Jason Bateman]

Okay.

[RZA]

So doing that show, it's just like, okay, the best way to do it is to do it. You know what I mean?

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, Right, right, right.

[RZA]

The best way to do it is to do it. And so, so I'm in that philosophy because me spending a dollar may take somebody else $10 to spend that dollar because they don't know how to spend a dollar.

[Sean Hayes]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Jason Bateman]

Gang. There's something about a beautiful outdoor space. It's so satisfying. Am I right? I'm right. I mean, it's like your little oasis. It's right in your own backyard. But what do you need out there? You need a little something to sit on. On. Because while the grass is great, a nice little chair is even better. Or an outdoor sofa or love seat or a little chaise lounge you get your tan on. Now, Wayfair is a place that can set you up perfectly for this. Wayfair's got everything you need to level up your outdoor space. Patio sets, lounge chairs, outdoor bars, hot tubs, fire pits, gazebos, and of course, string lights. Everybody needs a string light. It's easy to have a one stop shop where you can make over your entire space all with everyday value. That means you can have the resort feel without the resort price tag. Like for me, I'm a sucker for an Adirondack chair, you know, and they got me covered, you know, they can check that box for me. Don't wait. Make your outdoor space your dream oasis today with Wayfair and enjoy it all summer long. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop a huge outdoor selection. That's W a Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

[Sean Hayes]

This episode is supported by FX's the Bear. The Emmy award winning series returns following Carmi, Sidney and Richie as they push forward, determined not only to survive, but also to take the Bear to the next level. This season, the pursuit of excellence isn't just about getting better. It's about deciding what's going on worth holding onto. FX's the Bear. All episodes streaming June 25th on Hulu. This podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues. It's that time of the year the flowers are blooming and birds are chirping. And also that time when allergies can test you and show up when you least expect. But with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues, you can be ready to face them. Whether it's sneezes or watery eyes. You don't want to be caught without a tissue on hand to help. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are gentle on eyes and noses. They're for all the moments at home and on the go that allergies can disrupt this allergy season. Be better prepared with Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues, which is allergist approved so you can go on with your day. Life and allergies can both be unpredictable, but you can be prepared for that time of year by making sure you've always got Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues ready for whatever happens next. Next, grab Kleenex and back to the show.

[Jason Bateman]

You know, people who are as accomplished as you in as many. In as many different skill sets, it takes an enormous amount of not only ambition, but. But concentration and focus and discipline where. What would you say to the listeners who are, you know, trying to get their feet under themselves and really find that gear that it's going to take to hit the passing lane and get past the folks that they're competing with? What is. What is that special sauce from you, for you? And from whom did you learn it from or what happened that. That gave you that. That spark that. That you tap into that has, you know, f much incredible, accomplished work.

[RZA]

I will show anybody the first thing is mastery of something, okay? If you master one thing and you mastered it, then you'll understand the relation of all things.

[Jason Bateman]

Okay?

[RZA]

Right. Because that makes sense. And for me, you know, of course, the first thing is gonna be my lyrics, right? And I've been writing lyrics since the age of nine, so by the time. And you know, I'm the guy that finishes schoolwork first, so I could write another lyric. So mastery of your passion, I guess, would. To go together. Master your passion.

[Jason Bateman]

That's great.

[RZA]

And if you master your passion, I think that when it's time for other disciplines to come amongst you, you're going to have a foundation because you'll be able to apply it. And I think we all can agree us here, all of us artists right here, that we could say that it is the artists. Artist has. I use this word. Artistry is a wavelength, right? It's like if you got a. So let's take a trumpet, right? And it's called a trumpet. The artist, whatever plays through that trumpet, though, it could be jazz, soul, rock, pop, doesn't matter. It's going to come through that trumpet to turn into music. But when the artist knows the wavelength, he knows what to pass through his. His. His vessel. You know what I mean? Can we. Could you see that?

[Sean Hayes]

Jeez, man.

[Will Arnett]

I know.

[Sean Hayes]

That's. That's really cool.

[Will Arnett]

I know. It's.

[Sean Hayes]

That's kind of amazing. Yeah, that's really cool. What if it's a piano? Just kidding.

[Will Arnett]

Sean's an accomplished pianist. I don't know if you knew that. He is. He really is.

[Sean Hayes]

Okay.

[RZA]

My favorite instrument, Sean.

[Sean Hayes]

Okay. There you go.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, we'll jam.

[Jason Bateman]

How many. How many. How many can you play? How many different instruments? Instruments?

[RZA]

Yeah, I mean, I play. You know, I'm not gonna. You know, I'm a producer, so producer is a lot technology. But no, I play guitar. Drums, of course, the guitar list. Bass is no problem. I could blow some notes on. On. On my. On my trumpet. And I spend a lot of time on the piano, too, but I'm very shy on the piano. Meaning mostly my wife gets to hear me.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[RZA]

You know, I gotta be nice to play in front of an audience.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Sean's very coy on a piano. He's very coy. You know, it's funny, you. You do. You mentioned, like, different instruments and stuff. You've done so many different. And you've done a lot of collabs and different genres. I remember you did that. I love that record you put out with Paul Banks from. From Interpol. Banks and Steel, dude. That was so rad that. That record. Talk a little bit about that experience and how you guys got together.

[RZA]

Let's shout out Paul Banks first and the whole Interpol family.

[Jason Bateman]

I put an Interpol song in. Black Rabbit coming out.

[Will Arnett]

Well, congrats, man.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[RZA]

And Paul's getting married this summer, so.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[RZA]

Yeah. I mean, this one of the coolest bachelors. I was married while we was making that album. He wasn't. You know what I mean? And all the people always scream for him. He's a cool dude, man.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, I mean, I don't know him, but I'm such a fan. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that experience.

[RZA]

Well, we met because he. I guess he had. He listened to some of my music and he was making it. He used. I guess one of his articles, he. He used me as a reference to something he was striving to do as an artist. And I think my manager read it and was like, oh, my manager's a fan of Paul. He's like, oh, Paul is a fan of yours? And he kind of quoted something about you. You guys are both New Yorkers, you know, hook up. I mean, he's not a native New Yorker, but he's, you know, he was living in New York at the time. He said, maybe you guys could hook up and chop it up. And we hooked up and. And we both were chess players, and so we would just play chess at the Time he did drink tequila. We met at a tequila bar. That's tequila in chess. And that built a friendship. And maybe a couple of years later, I think Warner Brothers approached us and was like, would you guys be interested in kind of collaborating on something together? We just think you guys are just too cool. Too cool, motherfuckers. Just to be quite frank, was the slang they used.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[RZA]

And we was like, yeah, whatever. Yo, we hang anyway. Like, you want us to do music, too cool.

[Jason Bateman]

You want to pass, hang up.

[Will Arnett]

I use that. I used that single, actually, as a temp track in my show. Jason, you mentioned quite drolly Flake the other day, but we couldn't afford it. But we used it as. We used it as a temp in. In the show. So I was. I was a big fan.

[RZA]

Anytime you can't afford something to my hit me up, I got.

[Will Arnett]

From now on.

[RZA]

I discount so many things and $1 go out. If it gets to my desk, it gets easy. If it don't get to my desk.

[Jason Bateman]

I'm going to take you up on that. I'm coming. Hey, did you score. Did you score your four films that you directed?

[RZA]

No, I scored two. I scored the first one with my buddy Howard Drossen. The second one, Richard Gibbs. Me and him collaborated on the second one. One. The third one I passed over to Danny Harrison, good friend George Harrison's son. Him and his crew did it. And on the fourth one, I actually combined with Tyler Bates, which is. I think Tyler is incredible. Incredible composer. Just bold and brave in his sound selection. So the fourth film is me and Tyler together. Wow.

[Jason Bateman]

I see that.

[Will Arnett]

I know. Me too. Yeah, go ahead, Jason, you had a.

[Jason Bateman]

Well, it was unrelated, but one thing I keep forgetting to ask. What?

[Will Arnett]

Sorry. This is our new segment we're doing called Unrelated. Go ahead.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, what about. What about martial arts for you? Are you. Are you an accomplished martial artist? Or. Or is there any crossover there?

[RZA]

That's a big word, accomplished. Look, no, I wouldn't say that. I don't know. Right. Of course I. I practice martial art.

[Jason Bateman]

You do?

[RZA]

Okay, yeah. But my philosophy is mental martial art, cultural, artistic, martial arts. You know what I mean? It's, you know, just to give you a little bit about the Wu Tang philosophy in the martial world. So the Shaolin philosophy is known to be external, right? You train your body to be hard as iron. Right? In the Wu Tang, you train your body to be soft as cotton. The Shaolin martial artists would throw a thousand punches to death. The Wu Tang martial artist would sit.

[Will Arnett]

Still.

[RZA]

And contemplate the thousand punches in his mind. So exercising the mind is known as. Because it's kind of Taoist. So it's known as. That's the Wu Tang way. But exercising the body is Zen or Buddhist way. So being the Wu Tang Abbott, I'm going here. And so that's why, you know, my lyrics or my art heart is always formulating now. Somebody was a step to me now.

[Jason Bateman]

Okay, it's a mistake.

[RZA]

Yeah, yeah. So Charlotte gonna jump up out of.

[Will Arnett]

Me, you know, Dude.

[RZA]

Yeah, right. Dude.

[Will Arnett]

I am so. I'm entranced. I am. This is like, unbelievable. This is so.

[Jason Bateman]

I'm going into a Wu Tang cave when this interview's over.

[Will Arnett]

I've been in a Wu Tang. We were supposed to record a little while ago. I've been in a Wu Tang just absolute cave for months now. Hey, when. Speaking of Wu Tang. So when you. And just your music in general, do you see, you guys have been so, like I said, you're so influential on other musicians for the last over 30 years. Do you. Can you see. Can you, like, catch glimpses of your influence in music now when you listen to hip hop?

[RZA]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's a blessing, right, to be able to inspire anything or anybody right, after getting inspiration from life yourself. But, yeah, that's, you know, constantly. You know, some of our greatest artists, they are not shy to, you know, give us a name drop, you know, I mean, Drake named the song Wu Tang Forever, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, one of Kendrick Lamar's first samples, you know, was a RZA sample, which I cleared for free.

[Sean Hayes]

You're welcome, man.

[Will Arnett]

You guys did so much. You did so much sampling over the years. I mean, you guys were like the masters of it. Was there ever a sample that you couldn't clear that you. That you wish you could have gotten, you were not able to get?

[RZA]

Well, no, the worst. No, I wouldn't say that. I. Let me see. Yeah, there was a couple. Because some people would, like, become born again Christians, and they don't. They. They wasn't letting hip hop go. But my biggest. One of my biggest glitches was this. And I don't mind sharing this with your audience is that there's no floor or ceiling when it comes to sampling and the interpolation rights. And I totally disagree with that. Right. The reason why I disagree is because if you sample a song, say you sample a James Brown song, right? And you got, you know, Bootsy on bass, but you got all these different people playing Maceo, right? They all Playing the publisher will come and could potentially take 100% of that song away from you, right? And say that because you're copyright infringing. And even though your song could be almost unrecognizable from their song. And then the musicians, who. You're probably more into the musicians than the song itself. Like if I sampled a little bass part from here, a little horn from this guy, a little snare from this guy. And me, I'm the type of guy that had Peter Pan records, so I may get a string section from that. You know what I mean? And make a track. So it's like, what about those musicians? They never get compensated. It's just the publishing company. And then I said this last to me, in my opinion, that it should be a floor and a ceiling. The ceiling should be 50%. That should be the ceiling. You should never take more than half because you got the lyrics, you got the talent, you got everything else that the other person. Person is building to make the song. Right? And then the floor should be then prorated by how much you took, you know, versus what the song is. But with a ceiling. So the floor could be. I'll put the floor at even 20% to be merciful. 20% floor, no matter what. If you, if you put my record on, you take something, give me 20% for that inspiration, right? But most I could take from you is 50%. And we'll measure how to get to 50%. I got a situation where I did sample Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell's All I Need and it was a double platinum selling song. Wanda Grammy Met the Man and Mary J. Blige was the Coca Cola commercial of the summer. And all we received is 10% of the song.

[Jason Bateman]

Wow. Yeah.

[RZA]

And that, I mean that song made.

[Will Arnett]

Made. Yeah.

[RZA]

Every time I made a dollar, they only gave us a dime. No way. And look. And one. I could argue back. They, you know, they. It was. They said it was ours, you took it. And. But also. I could then argue back, but no, we didn't know. We didn't know that that was a law or. Because hip hop started from a guy with a turntable and he's scratching beats back and forth. We rapping over it. And then he made a sampler. A sampler. Said sampling instrument. Okay. That's my new instrument. And now I'm sampling sounds and records for my collection and I'm making my own thing. We didn't know that it was going to be a law or some type of thing that was going to stop Us. And eventually hip hop got slowed down because of sampling and interpolation laws.

[Will Arnett]

Because of lawyers.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

And then all those fees were assessed retroactively into all of those songs that were created with some samples and stuff. Once the law went into effect, then they reached back, charged. Oh, wow.

[RZA]

You got some songs now? I got some. I got a song of mine that is totally wrong. Two, two or three of my songs. Because they. They thought that it was it and it wasn't it. Right.

[Will Arnett]

Wow.

[RZA]

And it's like, hold on, that's not Roger Troutman. What is. I didn't even. I wasn't. I wasn't a Roger Troutman fan. Right. I was a Thelonious Monk fan, but I wasn't the one to tell.

[Will Arnett]

I love that. I love your. I love your floor and ceiling idea. I think that that's something that should. That should take root, hopefully. I. I think that that makes a lot of sense and seems really fair. Really, really fair. So I hope that works out. All right. Before I let you go, I want to talk a little bit about a ballet through Mud. Because you released a classical album last year.

[Sean Hayes]

I. I can't. I did not know this. I want to hear this.

[Will Arnett]

It's unbelievable. Like, every time there's, like, something else that you did, talk a little bit about how that came about and your.

[Sean Hayes]

Ambition with that and where we can see it. Will it ever be done again or.

[RZA]

Well, the ballet was performed a few times already, and so we don't know if it's going to. If I'm going to do it, like, perform it again. But we did perform it in la. We did in Colorado, which I wrote it for. Colorado. I was part of this artist in residence where for three years I would create something to take to the Colorado Symphony Orchestra and perform. So it was during the pandemic, of course, that I found this notebook of old lyrics. And then inside these lyrics, these are like my high school lyrics. So this book is so old, my buddy Raekwon made a joke, said, that book is growing hair, man. It's that old, right? But in it is all of the ideas from 9th grade up until graduation. So you could see the first blunt, the first weed. You could hear the early sexual ideas and everything. And you could also hear the imagination growing. And so when I found the book, I said, I can't rap these. What should I do? And then I eventually decided, talking to my wife about it, of course, that what if I kind of composed it into, like, a ballet or something? And so she thought it was A great idea as well. And I kind of went into it. The funny thing is that. Let me share one of the lyrics that led to it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So one of the lyrics was about these six teenagers who are exploring life, right? So sue was this girl who was really quite fly. And Brad was real cool, he was her guy. Lisa was freaky, she loved to have sex. Her brother name was Dexter but they called him Dex his girlfriend name was Monica, she was a verge. And Joe, he was their friend and he was a nerd. Brad bought the beer, sue bought the smoke. Lisa had sheets, Dexter had coke Joe was the type who didn't get high nor did Monica, but she was willing to try. So Brad lit a blunt and passed it to Joe, saying, come on, man, smoke it. And Joe said no. What's wrong? Are you scared? Was asked by Sue. Oh, you were just a nerd. Joe said, that's not true. Monica said, come on, Joe, just have a taste. And she puffed on the joint and blew smoke in his face. Now on Monica, Joe had a crush. He didn't want to do it but felt that he must like many we know Love made him a fool so he smoked the joint to prove he was cool. Then Lisa was like, yo, forget about Joe. Then say, hey, Dex, where the heck is the blow? Pulled out 2 grams. Said, it's all that I bought. Well, it's more than enough. And they proceeded to snort. Now, at this time, Jo had finished two beers and Brad was like, here, have another, you queer. And Joe said no while holding his stomach. And while facing Monica, he suddenly vomit. She screamed, oh, my God. Shit, how I've served. And everyone laughed and said, joe is a nerd. Joe is a nerd. Joe is a nerd. Joe felt embarrassed, so he did the bird. They chased him, he ran, they screamed, and they laughed into this abandoned house. And with the sound of this crashing glass. And it was dark in there, so Brad had to get a light to check to see if Joe was all right. But when they found him, he was laying on his back with quartz of red blood spurting from his head. And Monica said, oh, my God, Joey is dead. And they started to run and they never mentioned this incident again to anyone, so. Wow.

[Jason Bateman]

That's beautiful.

[Sean Hayes]

That is amazing.

[RZA]

I turned that to a ballet.

[Sean Hayes]

That's unbelievable.

[Jason Bateman]

I've gotta see that.

[Sean Hayes]

How in the world do you remember?

[Will Arnett]

I know.

[Sean Hayes]

Not only remember that, but remember everything that you make. I mean, it's incredible.

[Will Arnett]

It's so good. Oh, God, man, we could talk for hours. We've taken up way too much of your time. What an absolute. Like I said at the beginning, what an absolute honor to have you, man. I'm such a fan.

[Jason Bateman]

It really has been.

[Will Arnett]

You're such a creative juggernaut, dude, in every way. So just, you know, continued success.

[Sean Hayes]

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[RZA]

And I say all respect. And I just say now I'm a fan of all you guys work as well. Thank you for what you contributed to my life. It's just, you know, I've watched you. I've watched as a fan, you know, the things you guys create, whether in the theater or in front of my TV set. And got my laughs, got my inspiration. And part of. Probably took some from your tree here and there come. I'm hip hop, so I sampled.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[RZA]

Okay.

[Sean Hayes]

You sampled us. You sampled us?

[RZA]

I sampled. Yes, indeed.

[Jason Bateman]

Right back at you. You've touched all of us and millions and millions around the world.

[Will Arnett]

You really inspired us today. Well, thank you, Riza, for your time, man. Thank you, guys. And thank you. Yeah. Spoonful, chocolate. All the best of luck with it, man. Can't wait for it.

[Jason Bateman]

We'll be watching.

[RZA]

Respect. Peace.

[Jason Bateman]

Thank you.

[Will Arnett]

Peace.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Bye, pal.

[RZA]

Wow.

[Jason Bateman]

Wow, Willie, that was. I didn't think you had it in you, you know, I know you always talk about them.

[Sean Hayes]

You've talked about them forever.

[Will Arnett]

I wanted to have him on for a long time. And I'm so. I'm like. I knew the bar was high. I was like, oh, he's gonna be inspirational. He's gonna be cool. And I can't believe how he just exceeds expectations just as a creative. Right. It's just unbelievable. It's like a endless well of creativity.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

And also, like, just philosophies and, like.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

I mean, spiritual. Like. I love the thing he said about the trumpet, like the. Where the artist has to connect the energy to the vibrations that go through the thing that makes the sound. Like, whatever that was. But that was really cool.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

We're like trumpet Jay. You're more like a waymo. You know what I mean? You're just like a.

[Sean Hayes]

Nobody's in it.

[Jason Bateman]

So please rate me.

[Will Arnett]

Empty vehicle that goes from just destination to destination. Destination. But that's fine. That's fine. And we still love you. But honestly.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

He had so. You're right. He had so many cool philosophies.

[Sean Hayes]

I mean, I.

[Will Arnett]

By the way, the whole Shaolin approach that he does and the way they created that community and kind of like, there's just. And he produced all those records for all those guys, for, you know, for Ghost Face and for all those dudes like Method man, it's insane.

[Sean Hayes]

It is wild.

[Jason Bateman]

I want to be in the music world a little bit. They all just seem like they just. They kind of got it all together.

[Sean Hayes]

They're super chill.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. No one's running. They're just, you know, they're just doing their thing.

[Will Arnett]

I'm really excited for him, for. I knew Jay, you'd be excited that he's directing. I didn't know he'd done four films, but I saw the trailer. I saw the trailer for his new film. It looks really, really good.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

So I'm excited for that and. And how cool. I. And it makes sense that he'd be a good director because he has been sort of the Abbot, as he says, of the Wu Tang for so long and does so many. And wear so many hats and Jay's. You know, as a director, that's what you have to. That's what you have to do.

[Jason Bateman]

Pulling on all those different levers.

[RZA]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

And just a great leader.

[Sean Hayes]

I spent a lot of time on Abbot Kinney, where there's a gay bar and Abbott Kinney.

[Jason Bateman]

You know, funny story about that gay bar. It's called Rooster Fish. The Rooster Fish.

[Sean Hayes]

How do you guys know that?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, I think. I think so. When I.

[Sean Hayes]

That's totally true.

[Jason Bateman]

When I. I.

[Will Arnett]

There's a light bulb out in the back alley behind. Anyway, forget. Oh, no, it doesn't matter.

[RZA]

Wait.

[Sean Hayes]

There you go.

[Jason Bateman]

I used to live right around there. And when I first moved into my house, me and my buddy went down the street and, like, well, we gotta find our local bar.

[Will Arnett]

Right.

[Jason Bateman]

If we're gonna be living down here. And this place is. At the time, I don't know if it still is. It was painted this, like, this really cool, like, turquoise blue.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

And. And we're like, well, this place looks kind of cool. Walked in there, fucking sat at the bar and ordered a couple of beers and just started talking to each other. And I get a little tap, tap on the shoulder. I don't think the guy had, like, a gag ball in his mouth, but it seemed. It was. It was very clear that we were in the wrong spot almost immediately.

[Sean Hayes]

Right. Right.

[Jason Bateman]

We finished the beer and we got another one. Hands and. Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

So we only had three more beers. I only had three more. And then I was out of there. By the way, I forgot. I forgot to mention. I forgot to mention that. That for rza, that they're. They're his. They're on tour this summer. Right? The Wu Tang final tour. So I also wanted to mention that. Yeah, yeah, we should go. We should really go.

[Jason Bateman]

How you mentioned that during the interview so we could lock up some tickets.

[Will Arnett]

I know, I forgot. We can still lock.

[Sean Hayes]

We can get tickets.

[Will Arnett]

Say tickies.

[Sean Hayes]

Look, he picked it up from. He picked it. He picked it up from Rooster Fish.

[Jason Bateman]

That's the way I would have phrased it with him too. I say, hey, chance, we get some tickies. You know, and we would have. It would have been uncomfortable. Ambush him in the interview live. You know, he would have had to.

[Will Arnett]

Get uncomfortable for anybody. Dude. Okay. The way you sort of infantilize everything.

[Sean Hayes]

Thing is, so I want to. By the way, I feel like that Rooster Fish story isn't over, but. Well, it can. It can be. For now.

[Jason Bateman]

I'll tell you the ending after we. After we shut down.

[Will Arnett]

Is that the. That was the day that you discovered that you weren't gay, but that maybe you were gay adjacent.

[RZA]

Bye. There it is.

[Will Arnett]

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[Sean Hayes]

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[Jason Bateman]

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[Will Arnett]

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[Jason Bateman]

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[Will Arnett]

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[Jason Bateman]

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[Will Arnett]

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[Jason Bateman]

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[RZA]

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