Lord Dunmore and the Proclamation That Ignited Revolution (with Bob Crawford of The Avett Brothers)

Summary

SNAFU with Ed Helms

Episode Summary: Bob Crawford and Lord Dunmore’s Folly

Release Date: April 1, 2026
Guest: Bob Crawford (Avett Brothers bassist, historian, and author)

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Episode Overview

This episode of SNAFU with Ed Helms dives into one of colonial America’s iconic political blunders: Lord Dunmore’s Folly. With guest Bob Crawford—a musician, historian, and newly published author—the show unpacks how one British governor’s ill-conceived proclamation supercharged revolutionary fervor, revealing what historic fiascos like this say about America’s roots and recurring patterns. The episode interweaves lively banter, musical insights, and historical perspective, centering on themes of unintended consequences, the roots of revolution, and the complexity of progress.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Bob Crawford’s Dual Life: Musician & Historian

Timestamps: 02:19–04:25

• Ed Helms introduces Bob Crawford as a “multi-hyphenate” — bassist in the Avett Brothers and host of American history podcasts.
• Crawford’s history nerdiness evolved during years on the road:

  “All those years driving around in a 15 passenger van for eight hours a day. Read, read, read.” (03:33)

• Origin of interest: Sparked by the Iraq War, Crawford began connecting US history to modern events:

  “How did we get here? ...from 1776 to Abu Ghraib.” (03:56)

• Crawford describes his reading habits as omnivorous and how modern tech lets him research deeply while touring.

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2. Music and Connection to History

Timestamps: 05:23–06:49

• Ed Helms and Crawford muse on folk music as a vessel for American history.
• Crawford references early 20th-century influences:

  “For the Avetts, it’s Charlie Poole or the songs that Doc Watson popularized in the '60s that really are turn of the century, if not before.” (06:21)

• Both agree music can be a direct connection to the past.

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3. Lord Dunmore’s Backstory and Colonial Virginia

Timestamps: 07:59–13:27

• Lord Dunmore: Scottish aristocrat, British army officer, and Virginia’s royal governor in the 1770s.

  Helms: “A Scottish aristocrat with elite Nepo baby energy...” (06:55)

• Dunmore disliked his posting in Virginia—missing the cosmopolitan life of New York.
• Anecdote: Dunmore presided over a court case involving a woman he allegedly had an affair with, highlighting colonial drama.

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4. 1774: Political Tensions and Brewing Revolution

Timestamps: 13:52–20:10

• Backdrop: Tensions peaked after Parliament’s coercive acts, events like the Boston Massacre (1770) and Tea Party (1773).
• Dunmore dissolves the Virginia House of Burgesses to suppress growing dissent.

  Helms: “Dunmore’s solution? Dissolve the House of Burgesses. Just break it up. Get everyone out of there.” (19:10)

• Bob Crawford explains how this move transformed political debate into a revolutionary spark:

  “This moment in 1774 is when people realize we’re subjects. That’s all we are.” (20:10)

• Helms contextualizes: The Burgesses were a “farm team” for revolutionary leaders like Washington and Jefferson.

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5. Dunmore’s War & Short-Lived Popularity

Timestamps: 20:32–22:01

• Dunmore earns goodwill among Virginia landowners after victorious campaigns against Native American tribes (Battle of Point Pleasant), opening Kentucky for settlers.
• But this support quickly evaporates amid political missteps.

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6. The Powder Alarm and Escalating Colonial Dissent

Timestamps: 25:03–30:19

• Parallel situation in Massachusetts: the “Powder Alarm” (1774) when British troops tried to seize colonial gunpowder, sparking mass mobilization.

  Helms: “More than 4,000 patriot militiamen mobilized to protest. This shocked the Brits.” (26:33)

• Boston vs. Virginia:

  Crawford: “In Boston, they’re…drinking beer and they’re getting pissed off and…ready to go.” (26:22)

• These crackdowns ironically unify colonists and expedite organization, e.g., Minutemen.

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7. Dunmore’s Blunder: The Proclamation

Timestamps: 30:19–34:37

• Dunmore seizes Williamsburg’s gunpowder, citing prevention of a slave uprising; this enrages colonists.
• Facing threats, Dunmore flees to the HMS Fowey, governing from exile offshore.

  Crawford: “A leader in exile doesn’t govern very well.” (31:35)

• November 1775: Dunmore issues his infamous proclamation:

  Helms: “Dunmore issued a royal proclamation offering freedom to any indentured servants or enslaved people willing and able to fight for the King.” (33:09)

• About 300–800 former slaves join him; thousands contemplate escape or joining the British.
• This move has massive and unintended consequences, stoking fears among Virginians and rallying moderates to the Patriot cause.

  Crawford: “This will become…what they fear the most.” (34:37)

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8. The Legacy of Dunmore’s Proclamation and Unintended Consequences

Timestamps: 38:22–40:47

• Dunmore’s motives were tactical, hoping to boost loyalist forces and cripple the rebel economy.

  Helms: “He’s using liberty as a tactical weapon. It’s very cynical. And yet there’s something obviously noble in freeing slaves.” (38:49)

• Historic impact: The proclamation “did more than Thomas Paine's Common Sense or the Declaration of Independence to convert white residents of Britain’s most popular colony to the cause of independence.” (paraphrased, 40:28)
• Dunmore’s plan backfires: Unites the colony against him; forces that were neutral join the rebellion.

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9. Complexity and Messiness of American History

Timestamps: 40:47–42:31

• Crawford and Helms emphasize the importance of confronting all aspects—the good, bad, and ugly—of historical figures and events.

  Crawford: “You gotta be able to take it all in and hold it all in together. The good, the bad, and the ugly.” (41:23) Helms: “No, we contain multitudes. We’re a mess, and there’s beauty.” (42:12)

• Discuss George Washington’s contradictions: visionary leader but also slaveowner who tried to reclaim a woman who escaped enslavement.

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10. Aftermath: Dunmore’s Defeat and Exile

Timestamps: 44:47–46:47

• Dunmore’s last stand at the Battle of Great Bridge is a rout—only one Patriot injured vs. 100 British casualties.
• He eventually flees back to Britain, where family drama follows (his daughter’s royal marriage scandal).
• Many black soldiers and families who joined the British evacuate to Nova Scotia and Sierra Leone, forming lasting communities.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On unintended consequences:

  “Bad leadership doesn’t just fail at leadership. It can often mobilize the opposition.” — Ed Helms (48:19)

• On relating to history’s complexity:

  “You gotta be able to take it all in and hold it all in together. The good, the bad, and the ugly.” — Bob Crawford (41:23)

• Summing up Dunmore’s errors:

  “They weren’t just tactical blunders. They were accelerants against his interests. The blowback can just be so much more consequential than simply the failure to advance your cause.” — Ed Helms (48:19)

• Episode’s SNAFU in three words:

  “Don’t mess up.” — Bob Crawford (46:08)

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Final Reflections & Book Plug

Timestamps: 49:19–53:19

• Helms asks what drew Crawford to write about John Quincy Adams; they discuss learning from both success and failure in history.
• Crawford previews his new book, America’s Founding Son: John Quincy, From President to Political Maverick, and highlights Adams’ unique journey from failed president to anti-slavery crusader in Congress.
• They discuss the evolving nature of historical study and how access to resources (like the Congressional Record) has transformed scholarship.

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Notable Historical Insights

• Dunmore’s Proclamation pre-figured Lincoln’s Emancipation in its use of freedom as both a weapon and a point of reckoning.
• Revolutionary moments often emerge as much from power-holders’ blunders as from well-planned resistance.
• The American story contains multitudes—progress shaped by confrontation with inconvenient truths.

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Suggested Listening Segments

• Music and history’s intersection: 05:23–06:49
• Dunmore dissolves House of Burgesses: 19:10–20:32
• Dunmore’s Proclamation and its fallout: 33:09–40:28
• Confronting history’s messiness: 40:47–42:31
• Book discussion and reflections: 49:19–53:19

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Episode Tone and Language

• The tone is playful, irreverent, and conversational—frequently blending humor with historical analysis.
• Speakers use modern analogies and pop culture references while staying respectful of the complexities being discussed.

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Conclusion

This episode uses the SNAFU of Lord Dunmore to illustrate how historical fiascos often catalyze new trajectories for societies. The guest’s blend of musical and historical knowledge provides a unique lens, reminding listeners to embrace all facets of the American past—messiness, contradictions, and all.

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For more SNAFUs, subscribe to the podcast or check out the SNAFU book at snafu-book.com.

Transcript

[Bob Crawford]

No, Virginia, they'll be like, oh, you dissolved bar Burgesses.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, can we discuss this not in Boston?

[Ed Helms]

No, you're so right. The vibe was so different.

[Bob Crawford]

Sam Adams, of course he's part of all this. And sure, you know, he's just brewing beer and they're drinking it and they're getting pissed off and, you know, they're ready to go.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, they're riled up.

[Bob Crawford]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Ed Helms]

Guaranteed human. Hey, I'm Wilmer Valderrama and this is Freddy Rodriguez. And we're back. Dos Amigos, Season two, baby. Last time, we went deep on our careers, our lives, our art, and everything in between. Our big breaks, our auditions, the near misses, the epiphanies, the moments that change our lives forever. This season, we're deepening our relationships, creating collaborations, and the door always stays open for a third amigo to pull up a ch. Listen to those amigos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

[Cino]

your podcasts on the Ceno Show Podcast. Each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo. Talk about addiction transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Haddish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm an alcoholic, and without this drug, I'm gonna die.

[Cino]

Listen to Cino's show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. Coming up this season on Math and Magic, CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario.

[Bob Crawford]

People think that interactive ideas are like

[Ed Helms]

these light bulb moments that happen when

[Bob Crawford]

you're in the shower where it's really

[Ed Helms]

like a stone sculpture you're constantly just

[Bob Crawford]

chipping away and refining.

[Bob Pittman]

Take to interactive CEO Straus Zelnick and our own Chief Business Officer, Lisa Coffey. Listen to math and Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ed Helms]

Welcome to snafu, your favorite podcast about history's greatest screw ups. Or more precisely, a show about what our failures and foibles say about humanity and as a whole. And spoiler alert, it's mostly not very good. I'M your host, Ed Helms and my guest today is the definition of a multi hyphenate. He is the bassist and a founding member of one of my all time favorite bands, the Avett Brothers. He also is an historian. I love this. He hosts American history hotline for iHeart podcasts and the Road to now on Sirius XM. And now his first book is is coming out. It's called America's Founding Son John Quincy. From President to political maverick. I'm super excited to have him on SNAFU this week. Welcome Bob Crawford.

[Bob Crawford]

Thank you, Ed. It's a joy to be here.

[Ed Helms]

Heck yeah. I mean, I have to say I don't even remember when we met. Long, long time ago. But I have only very recently learned of your history nerdiness. And this might be my new favorite thing about you.

[Bob Crawford]

It's one of the better things about me. So yes, pick that one and go with it. Yeah. And it kind of comes out of the band. We've been together for 25 years, maybe going on 26. And all those years driving around in a 15 passenger van for eight hours a day. Read, read, read. You know, it was like the perfect time to read. And I got really curious about American history around the time of the Iraq War. How did we get here? Sure. From 1776 to Abu Ghraib, if you remember Iraqi.

[Ed Helms]

That's a prison. That's a crooked line.

[Bob Crawford]

It is a crooked line. And I want. And so I started with the David McCullough books. This is 2004, 2005. The John Adams 1776 led me to Sean Wilent's the Rise of American Democracy from Jefferson to Lincoln. Highly recommend it. And that I was kind of on and on from there.

[Ed Helms]

Very cool. Now, are you a heavy paper book guy? Are you a Kindle guy? Audio books, what's your book game?

[Bob Crawford]

My book game is all and everything. It is. Seriously, because for Road to Now or American History Hotline, you're trying to absorb someone's book. Sometimes in two weeks. So I'll be reading the book and listening. If it's on the audio, I do that too. You know, I wrote this book on the Road. Much of it I wrote on the Road because again, you know, you've got soundcheck at two stage at eight, sometimes later. So a lot of hours to write a book.

[Ed Helms]

Wow.

[Bob Crawford]

And then, you know, a lot of this research we can. You can read the Congressional Record going back to the first Congress. It's all online.

[Ed Helms]

So cool.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Oh man, you are a giant nerd. I love this.

[Bob Crawford]

The biggest.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Now, I can't help but connect these dots because I know it's true for me. I don't know exactly how, but I know that my interest in history is connected to my love of more traditional music forms. So, like, I'm very into folk music, and obviously I'm a banjo player, bluegrass music. And to me, I feel like those. Those music forms have been a vessel or a connection to history in a way, almost in a subconscious way. I love the music very sort of on a superficial level, it just makes me feel good, but there's also something about it that feels connected to an earlier time and to a deeper sort of historical meaning. And I wonder if that's true for you because the Avett Brothers sound is so rooted in so many of these great old music traditions.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. Well, for the Avetts, it's Charlie Poole or it's the songs that Doc Watson popularized in the 60s that really are turn of the century, if not before. And the short answer is yes. And I'm always trying to. I'm always amazed by some American songs and how far they go back.

[Ed Helms]

Wow.

[Bob Crawford]

Yes. Music connects us to the past, and sometimes it connects us more directly than we previously imagined.

[Ed Helms]

Amen. Well said. This is a cool episode today. You obviously have a deep knowledge of sort of colonial and post independence America. You're gonna have some room to flex today because we're dipping into a great snafu. Right. In the pre American Revolution pressure cooker, we're heading to British run, Virginia, where a Scottish aristocrat with elite Nepo baby energy, John Murray, the 4th Earl of Dunmore, aka Lord Dunmore, was serving as the crown appointed governor while the whispers of rebellion were slowly building into a roar. And in true snafu fashion, our Lord Dunmore managed to take a tense situation and just absolutely douse it with kerosene with a spectacularly ill timed proclamation that fully supercharged Revolutionary war fervor up and down the colonies. Bob, are you ready to snafu?

[Bob Crawford]

I am ready to snafu.

[Ed Helms]

All right. Now, does Lord Dunmore set off any alarm bells for you?

[Bob Crawford]

Well, it rang, so I'm thinking Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Ed Helms]

Yes. Lord Dunmore is the crown appointed governor of the colony, Virginia.

[Bob Crawford]

What year are we in?

[Ed Helms]

Right. In the pre Revolutionary war period, the 1770s. Like, early 1770s. But we're gonna start by going back a bit further. So here's a little backstory on our main man Dunmore. Born in Teignmouth, Scotland in 1730, his father, the 3rd Earl of Dunmore actually fought against King George II as a member of the Jacobite army in 1746. His father was. Was imprisoned, but was eventually freed in 1750. That very same year, John, perhaps motivated by his father's failures, joined the British army, cementing his allegiance to the crown forevermore. We have a portrait of Lord Dunmore. Here it is.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, yes.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Very, very sharp.

[Cino]

He's Scottish.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, yes. He's leaning hard. I mean, there's a, there's. I count at least three different plaids going on in this portrait. The socks, the kilt,

[Bob Crawford]

very fashion forward.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Would he be a dandy?

[Ed Helms]

This painting does give dandy vibes, but I think we'll learn that he's actually a pretty tough cookie.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

All right. So he served the King very well. And in 1770, he was rewarded with a new appointment as the royal governor of New York. He left his wife Charlotte and their eight children back in Britain. Now, leaving your family is always tough, but maybe with eight kids it's like, get me the hell out of here. Maybe, I don't know. We both travel a lot, right? Shoots. And I go on shoots, you go on tour and whatever chaos is on the calendar. What's your road dad playbook?

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, man. I have two kids. I have 14 year old Samuel who's 14 year old like that, just everything that comes with that. Then I have a 16 year old special needs daughter named Hallie who is a three time brain tumor survivor and a St. Jude kid.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, wow.

[Bob Crawford]

She is amazing. But you can imagine how complicated our home life is.

[Ed Helms]

Sure.

[Bob Crawford]

So that just. And then my wife is incredible. And so she's dealing. I'm gone. And we have crafted our. Over the, you know, quarter century of Avett Brothers touring, we have finally crafted it to where we don't go for more than two weeks. We often don't go for more than 10 days.

[Ed Helms]

Amazing.

[Bob Crawford]

But I always come home and mess up everything. My wife has everything running just smooth and great and then I come home and everything just goes to. Goes to hell.

[Ed Helms]

As we like to say. There's friction on re entry.

[Bob Crawford]

There is.

[Ed Helms]

Well, no matter how he felt about leaving his family behind, Lord Dunmore eventually grew to enjoy his gig in the States. Despite being known as, and I quote, a gamester and a drunkard, he somehow thrived in New York. By 1771, the British government decided to relocate him further south as Governor of Virginia. Now this was supposedly a promotion going to Virginia. The Crown considered Virginia to be sort of the shining jewel of the colonies, you know, massive Tobacco exports and.

[Bob Crawford]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

But surprise, Dunmore hated it. He truly despised Virginia, especially the weather and the, quote, little or no society. You know, he was a bit of a.

[Bob Crawford]

It's a backwater at this point.

[Ed Helms]

It is, you're right. Very much unlike New York City, which is a pretty serious little metropolis. It's. It's not nothing, obviously, like it is now, but at least there's. There's some society, there's culture, and he didn't think there was any of that in Virginia, so. I grew up in the South. You grew up in where?

[Bob Crawford]

I grew up in South Jersey.

[Ed Helms]

South Jersey.

[Bob Crawford]

I grew up in the South.

[Ed Helms]

I grew up. Amazing.

[Bob Crawford]

About three miles from Atlantic City.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, that's so funny.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, yeah. And there was society. It was kind of rough at times in some places, but yeah, yeah, there was. We had Philly 45 minutes and New York City two hours.

[Ed Helms]

You know, so I feel like in modern terms, you can find so much culture anywhere now.

[Bob Crawford]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Ed Helms]

There's so much going on everywhere. But at this time, I have to think maybe he's right. Probably Virginia. At the time, the colony of Virginia may not have had the artistic community that New York had.

[Bob Crawford]

No. And everybody spread out there. You know, like you have a reputation, and then you got 20 miles, another plantation.

[Ed Helms]

Like I said, they thought this was a promotion. I think he was doing okay by the Crown's estimation. But once he settled into Williamsburg, which was Virginia's capital at the time, Richmond would come later. 1780. Lord Dunmore wasted no time stirring the pot. He allegedly had an affair with a woman who was in court battling her estranged husband, which might sound like just some regular old spicy colonial gossip, except for one tiny detail. Dunmore was actually the Chief justice presidency over this case. So real statesman energy here.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. Well, these days. These days, you're right. He would fit right in. Right.

[Ed Helms]

I'm making a joke.

[Bob Crawford]

Who can bring accountability?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, exactly. I'm being ironic, but the irony is lost on today's society.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, we've given that up.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. It sounds less like he was governing a colony and more like he was workshopping a reality show, which is what Williamsburg became. Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

A reality show.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. For real. Colonial Williamsburg, indeed. So Fast forward to 1774, a banner year for Lord Dunmore, and not in a fun way. This is when his storyline shifts from colonial gossip column to hold my powdered wig. The entire colonial world is already vibrating with tension. Britain and the colonies are locked in that passive aggressive relationship phase where everyone says they're fine, but someone's about to flip a table. The Patriots are furious over Parliament's power grabs, especially the whole taxation without representation thing. And this tension sparked events like the Boston Massacre in 1770 and of course, the famous Boston Tea Party in 1773. So people were mad. Tea was soggy.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. This is the moment of critical mass.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Muskets are getting dusted off here. Open warfare has not officially started, but the vibe is revolutionary, let's put it that way. We're about to dive more specifically into Dunmore. Any other. Any more color on this sort of time period you want to. Just from your insight, what do you love about it?

[Bob Crawford]

Well, yeah, Right. This is when everything's about to hit the fan. And so we think of the Revolutionary War as a revolutionary war, but as Ken Burns recently pointed out with his massive series that came out about the American Revolution, the Revolutionary War was actually a Civil War, and the Civil War was a revolution. And so if you think about that, you probably, at this point in Virginia, in the Tidewater, you had probably had one plantation where they were ready to cast off the crown and seeking independence, because people who lived in the colonies for many years, they were left alone and they wanted to be left alone. So they were happy with the king as long as he wasn't taxing the paper or the tea or all of that kind of stuff. But then you had those people, probably neighbors, who were die hard crown like they were ride or die crown. So this is probably where we are, where the tensions are building. And it's a which side are you on Moment.

[Ed Helms]

It's a real mixed bag. You're exactly right. There are plenty of people. Most people are kind of in a more libertarian camp of just kind of, hey, leave me alone. Let me make my money. And we're about to see how Dunmore just kind of totally steps in it in this whole situation. How did he become central to this growing crisis? Well, he was first and foremost a representative of the British Crown, obviously appointed by London. His duty was to enforce imperial policy in Virginia. So by 1774, he was operating within Virginia's established political framework. This was the House of burgesses. Founded in 1619, the Burgesses was the colony's elected assembly, largely made up of influential landowners and planters. They met with the royal governor and his council to manage colonial affairs. Now, as tensions between Britain and the colonies intensified, that working relationship would steadily unravel. Fun fact. The House of Burgesses was actually kind of like the farm team for the American Revolution. This is where guys like George Washington, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson and of course, Richard Henry Lee. They all sharpened their political teeth. So there was. Let's just say there are a lot of fumes in the tank and all it needs is a spark.

[Bob Crawford]

That's right.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Yeah. These are some of the most.

[Bob Crawford]

By the way, if you're listening to this, you can go see the Capitol building where Dunmore. The royal.

[Ed Helms]

Whatever they call it, the Governor's Palace. Governor's Palace. Dunmore's Palace.

[Bob Crawford]

It's all there.

[Ed Helms]

Wow.

[Bob Crawford]

I have never been to Disney World for this conversation.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, perfect. Listeners get out there. Yeah, I am yet to get to Colonial Williamsburg, and I can't wait. When I do get there, I'm just gonna geek out. I'm gonna drive all the employees crazy. Like, hey, wait, what was this? Where did you get this?

[Bob Crawford]

I make a confession. I go yearly. I really, truly enjoy it. And yes, it is complete geek fest.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, I love it.

[Bob Crawford]

But by the way, the music is great.

[Ed Helms]

I believe it. This brings us to May 26, 1774, when Dunmore had breakfast with George Washington. This seemed to go well. These guys had a lot in common. They had similar sort of societal tastes and aspirations. According to Washington, this was a good meeting. And who knows, and maybe in another life, they could have been besties. But later that very day, Dunmore received orders from the Crown to stop the troublesome House of Burgesses from making such a stink over British policies. Dunmore's solution dissolves the House of Burgesses. Just break it up. Get everyone out of there. This is a really fascinating detail. The sort of straw that broke the camel's back with the House of Burgesses was that they wanted to commemorate the Boston Tea Party with a day of fasting or something like that. And this was a decree that only the Crown would normally be have the power to decree. And so this was seen as a sort of subtle affront to the Crown.

[Bob Crawford]

It doesn't seem like there's anything subtle about it.

[Ed Helms]

Well, the subtlety is that it's such a genteel thing, right, to have a day of fasting and prayer in commemoration of something. But to sort of take that mantle themselves was just a tiny little fuck you to the Crown. And so that's why they kind of forced Duncan Moore's hand. He had to be like, guys, you can't do that. You gotta. You're broken up. So, yeah, every last member, including Washington, the very guy he'd shared breakfast with just hours earlier, was basically sent home. What message does this send to the people, to the colonists, when an unelected governor can just unilaterally dissolve an elected body, and then how long can people just like, stop asking politely to be ruled?

[Bob Crawford]

So this moment in 1774 is when people realize we're subjects. That's all we are. We're just subjects. He can dissolve whatever the hell he wants to dissolve. If he wants to send an army here and kill us all, he can do that. Unless. Unless we say no more. That's it. No, we're going to take matters into our own hands.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, very cool. I like the way that you framed that. Despite all this political tension, Dunmore was actually strengthening his standing with many wealthy Virginians by supporting western expansion. So tensions between colonial settlers and the Shawnee, the Native American tribes and Appalachia there had escalated into what became known as Dunmore's War in 1774. So after a series of battles, including the Battle of Point Pleasant, the Shawnee agreed to cede claims south of Ohio river, effectively opening up what is now present day Kentucky to colonial settlement. So for many land hungry Virginians, this was a great victory and something that they appreciated in Lord Dunmore and earned him a lot of goodwill. Unfortunately, this goodwill would not last. Things are about to go real bad for Dunmore With Verbal's last minute deals. You can save over $50 on your spring getaway. So whether it's a mountain escape with friends, a family week at the BE or sightseeing in a new city, there's still time to get great discounts. Book your next day now. Average savings, $72. Select homes only.

[Bob Crawford]

I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him.

[Cino]

Hi, dad.

[Bob Crawford]

And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is badass, convict. Just finished five years. I'm gonna have cookies and milk at mall. Yeah.

[Cino]

On the Cino show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo. Talk about addiction, transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Haddish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm an alcoholic and without this program, I'm gonna die.

[Cino]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the C no show and listen now.

[Ed Helms]

When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking. They are experts at everything here at the Nick, Dick and Pole show. We're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique. He's the writer, director.

[Bob Crawford]

Who do you think he is? I don't know.

[Ed Helms]

You meet the, like, the president.

[Bob Crawford]

You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? Let's walk. Cruise that. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time.

[Ed Helms]

What color?

[Bob Crawford]

I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it like it's like the

[Ed Helms]

old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep, it was a good one. I like that saying.

[Bob Crawford]

It's an actual Polish saying.

[Ed Helms]

It is an actual Polish.

[Bob Crawford]

Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually. I thought it was. I got that wrong.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance, and everywhere in between this season of Math and Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesareo, financier and public health advocate Mike Milken. Take two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick.

[Ed Helms]

If you're unable to take meaningful creative

[Bob Crawford]

risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.

[Bob Pittman]

Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and our own chief Business Officer, Lisa Coffey.

[Ed Helms]

Making consumers see the value of the human voice, and to have that guarantee,

[Bob Crawford]

human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top.

[Bob Pittman]

Listen to Math and Magic stories from the frontiers of Marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ed Helms]

Let's broaden out a little bit just for some additional context. We're gonna go up to Massachusetts. Royal authorities are suddenly dealing with a situation so chaotic, it earned its own dramatic title, the powder alarm of 1774. So after the Boston Tea Party Parliament passed the deeply unpopular coercive acts, dubbed the Intolerable Acts by colonists. And one of these acts barred Boston colonists from choosing who represented them in the council, the Massachusetts government's upper house. Naturally, they weren't too thrilled about this, and they prepared for possible conflict by moving munitions and gunpowder from their usual storage locations to more secretive storehouses.

[Bob Crawford]

Right In Boston, it was like, it's Boston, right? It's Boston in 2026. And you know how Boston is in 2026. It was Boston in 1774. And they're not taking any shit from anybody.

[Ed Helms]

No, they were riled up.

[Bob Crawford]

You know, Virginia, they'll be like, oh, you dissolved our burgesses.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, can we. This is another way, sir, my good sir. No, no, not in Boston.

[Ed Helms]

No, you're so right. The vibe was so different.

[Bob Crawford]

They're drinking. They are just, you know, Sam Adams, of course, he's part of all this. And, you know, he's just brewing beer and they're drinking it and they're getting pissed off and, you know, they're ready to go.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, they're riled up. So they hide a bunch of these munitions and gunpowder. And the British clocked it, and they were like, ooh, that's not cool, guys. They reacted swiftly. On September 1, 1774, General Thomas Gage ordered British troops to seize the weapons and gunpowder from a Charlestown storehouse. Now, news spread, and Suddenly, more than 4,000 patriot militiamen mobilized to protest. This shocked the Brits. They were like, whoa. We had no idea. Colonists were not only so mad, but also alarmingly good at organizing on short notice. You know, they had set up these networks already. I mean, what did British officials think was going to happen when they stripped people of representation and just started confiscating their guns? It's like a thank you note. I don't know.

[Bob Crawford]

Basically, Britain at this point had been in charge for so long.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

And had been. They were. They had the greatest army in the world at this point.

[Ed Helms]

So they're getting cocky.

[Bob Crawford]

They don't like it, they'll shut it down. And they must have thought that people did not have the fortitude and the perseverance to engage. I mean, who would mess with these guys? They've got a couple muskets, like, we've got cannons. Why would they challenge Great Britain?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. They just massively underestimated the moxie of these. Of these New Englanders. This, as I mentioned, became known as the powder alarm. And it turned out to be a huge game changer. It sparked the creation of the Massachusetts Provincial Congress. It sped up the rise of the Minutemen militia and even kicked off secret intelligence networks, keeping a watchful eye on the Brits movements all around Boston. But General Gage was not done. After British spies located colonial munitions in Concord, Massachusetts, he sent troops to destroy them on April 18, 1775. That little operation would, of course, lead to the famous shot Heard round the world, officially lighting the fuse on the

[Bob Crawford]

Revolutionary War Lexington and Concord.

[Ed Helms]

Now, I have been there, and that is very, very cool. That feels like a very visceral connection to history there. It's so interesting how often in history does authority escalate a situation in the name of trying to suppress it. Right. Like they're trying to exert control, but they really only just manife their worst fears.

[Bob Crawford]

It's pretty common, right?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Like nothing is inevitable in history. Right. But it. It does feel like Americans, when they were colonists, they didn't like being told what to do or what not to do, where to assemble, where not to assemble, like they didn't want to be pushed around as colonists. And I'm getting the sense, and I'm not. Not. I'm not talking about violence here or, you know, anything like civil war, revolution. I'm not talking about any of that in this moment, but I. I am sensing from people that the people will have the final say. And we were kind of seeing it already that. That people, the collective, they're pushing back. And even if it's bad poll numbers, it's registering disapproval in a state special election, or by answering a pollster's questions, those pieces of honesty and fortitude and standing your ground, they are showing that there can be some pushback and it can have an impact.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, absolutely. All right, back to Dunmore, because, of course, he wouldn't be left out of the colonial chaos. He got a mandate very similar to General Gage's up in Massachusetts to suppress the unrest down in Virginia. And being a loyal redcoat as he was, he dove right in. In April 1775, he grabbed the gunpowder from the public magazine in Williamsburg and sent it on a ship offshore, you know, just to keep it safe from those pesky colonists. Of course, Patriot forces quickly learned of this and mobilized in outrage, because, shocker, people get a little grumpy when you move their explosives without asking.

[Bob Crawford]

People don't like that.

[Ed Helms]

They don't like it. Dunmore, ever the spin doctor, claimed he was acting in the colonists best interest. He said he was simply preventing a slave revolt. None of this went over very well, so news spread quickly and local militia began mobilizing. Faced with rising tensions and threats to the governor's palace, as you mentioned there in Williamsburg, Dunmore withdrew his family and by June took refuge aboard the HMS Fowey in the York River. From there, he attempted to govern Virginia from the relative safety of a warship, which is rarely a sign that things are going smoothly.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, in exile, a leader in exile doesn't govern very well.

[Ed Helms]

We have an artistic rendering of Lord Dunmore's flight to the warship Fowey. And there it is, there it is.

[Bob Crawford]

He is that. Who's got his fist up? Is that Dunmore with his fist up?

[Ed Helms]

I think he's like, he's just saying like, ahoy, we're coming aboard. I'm really impressed by this staircase that comes down off the side of a battleship.

[Bob Crawford]

The French had a big navy at this time. Did they have stairs?

[Ed Helms]

This is a good question. Yeah. It was a huge point of contention between the two navies. Like we've got stairs. We have what we call an elevator.

[Bob Crawford]

An escalator. Exactly.

[Ed Helms]

It's so interesting the things artists choose to render Dunmore's flight to the Fowey. Why did this particular thing, I mean if you're Leonardo da Vinci painting the Last Supper, feels like, yeah, that's a cool thing. You want to capture that. I don't know about this moment where he just happens to be getting on a boat like, oh, okay. Anyway. Dunmore used the 24 cannon HMS Fowey as his base for two to three months. Though it was reported that he moved from ship to ship in the Chesapeake Bay as he commanded small raids on Patriot affiliated towns and plantations. He and his loyalist forces eventually settled on gwynn's island, about 30 miles northeast of Williamsburg. By November 1775, however, even a private island couldn't solve all his problems. Dunmore needed reinforcements, so he turned to the very people his opponen had been trying to control all along. And this drum roll please. Is Dunmore's snafu. With massive historical repercussions, Dunmore issued a royal proclamation offering freedom to any indentured servants or enslaved people willing and able to fight for the King. Oh, the irony. The same guy who'd earlier moved the colony's gunpowder to prevent a supposed slave uprising was now dangling liberty like it was candy at Halloween. About 300 former enslaved men joined what became known as Dunmore's Royal Ethiopian Regiment. This proclamation spread through newspapers across the colonies and the regiment eventually swelled to around 800 men. It also inspired thousands more to consider seeking freedom by siding with the British or just to escape amid the chaos. This is such a wild moment. And because it's so close to the just full on outbreak of war, the Revolutionary War, this particular moment doesn't get as much historical attention as I think it deserves. It's really striking.

[Bob Crawford]

It really is. And this will become when we get into the 1820s and 1830s in the South. This is what they fear the most.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly. And by the way, that fear, the fear of slave uprising goes way back. Of course. I mean, if you're going to enslave a population, there's part of you that knows this is horrible. This is so horrible what we're doing. Karma's might be swinging back at us any minute.

[Bob Crawford]

Man, you are sitting on a powder can keg of humanity.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Bob Crawford]

It is not good.

[Ed Helms]

With verbo care, help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

[Bob Crawford]

I went and sat on the little

[Ed Helms]

ottoman in front of him and I said, hi dad.

[Bob Crawford]

And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is badass. Convict me just finished five years. I'm gonna have cookies and milk at Mom.

[Cino]

On the Cino Show Podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo talk about addiction, transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Adish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm an alcoholic and without this, prove I'm a die.

[Cino]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the Cino show and listen now.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry, to finance and everywhere in between. This season of Math and Magic. I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate Mike Milken. Take Two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick.

[Bob Crawford]

If you're unable to take meaningful creative

[Ed Helms]

risk and therefore run the risk of

[Bob Crawford]

making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.

[Bob Pittman]

Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and our own Chief Business Officer, Lisa Coffey.

[Ed Helms]

Making consumers see the value of the

[Bob Crawford]

human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top.

[Bob Pittman]

Listen to Math and Magic stories from the frontiers of Marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ed Helms]

When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about. And they are experts at everything here at the Nick Dick and Pole show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique.

[Bob Crawford]

Who's he?

[Ed Helms]

He's the writer, director.

[Bob Crawford]

Who do you think he is? I don't know.

[Ed Helms]

You meet the. Like, the president.

[Bob Crawford]

You think the president. You think Canada has a president? You think China has a president? President L. Cruzette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time.

[Ed Helms]

What color?

[Bob Crawford]

I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night.

[Ed Helms]

It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep, it was a good one. I like that saying.

[Bob Crawford]

It's an actual Polish saying.

[Ed Helms]

It is an actual Polish.

[Bob Crawford]

Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes. Which. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift. Who said that for the first time? I actually. I thought. I thought it was. I got that wrong.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So he's offering freedom, but primarily as a military strategy, aiming to weaken the rebel economy and labor force. He's using liberty as a tactical weapon. It's very cynical. And yet there's something obviously noble in freeing slaves.

[Bob Crawford]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

Whatever his motives, it marked a pivotal moment in the history of slavery in America. It is remarkable how often major turning points emerge less from moral intention than from unintended consequences.

[Bob Crawford]

Wasn't it Washington didn't want to arm enslaved people?

[Ed Helms]

Correct.

[Bob Crawford]

He refused to arm enslaved even when the British were doing it. And he had. Then some people were saying, we need to do this. Yeah, he didn't want to do that because. Because what happens once they defeat the British? They will turn on us.

[Ed Helms]

Right.

[Bob Crawford]

That's probably the paranoia.

[Ed Helms]

I believe this was a turning point for the Revolutionary forces as well. That's when they started to enlist former slaves or slaves into the ranks, because they saw that Dunmore was doing this and they were like, we need to do this, too. Well, it turns out this decision of Dunmore's to invite despite the rebellion of slaves to his own benefit was the ultimate backfire. His proclamation, meant to bolster Loyalist forces, did the exact opposite. It unexpectedly united Virginians and supercharged the Patriot cause. Even folks who were kind of like on the fence, undecided, or even quietly rooting for the King, they were outraged. And the Virginian economy was so based entirely on slavery that everyone was, regardless of their loyalty before this, was just pissed off. At Lord Dunmore, and they threw themselves into the rebellion moving forward. So losing enslaved laborers, it wasn't just an inconvenience. It threatened their social status, their whole economic system. One historian even noted no other document, not even Thomas Paine's Common Sense or the Declaration of Independence, did more than Dunmore's proclamation to convert white residents of Britain's most popular colony to the cause of independence.

[Bob Crawford]

You and I love history. You know, we're just fascinated by it. And the deeper you get into American history, like, you need to learn to embrace somehow what united these guys to fight the British was the threat of being attacked by former slaves, their slaves. And so it's like there are some people that don't want to teach certain parts of American history. But I say it's like you need to accept it all. I like to say, the good, bad, and the ugly, you gotta be able to take it all in and hold it all in together. The good, the bad, and the ugly. George Washington. Amazing. No one else ever like him. The man gave away power. The man had absolute power, served two terms as president and said, you know what? I'm going home. I'm going to go sand my floors. I'm going to go grow hemp. I'm going to whatever. But also, when he was president, he had an enslaved woman named Ona Judge escape, and he. He obstructed justice to try to get her back. He never got her back, but he tried to obstruct the Fugitive Slave Law that he signed into law. So it's like, we gotta.

[Ed Helms]

The good, bad, and the ugly.

[Bob Crawford]

We gotta hold both. We gotta hold both. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Amen. Amen. We're in a very weird moment where a lot of forces are trying to kind of only cling to the good and say, that's our history. That's all of it that's in it. But no, we contain multitudes. We're a mess, and there's beauty. It's a.

[Bob Crawford]

We contain multitudes. Alexis Koh says, you're not guilty of anything unless you deny it. All we can do is be the best people we can today to each other.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And we need the most amount of data to do that.

[Bob Pittman]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

We need the most honest accounting of the world and history and science and whatever else. We need the most and best data to be the best versions of ourselves. With this action of Dunmore's, Virginian rebels reached a breaking point, and Washington even called him out for this treacherous behavior. In a letter written on December 15, 1775, to Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Reed Washington wrote, if Virginians are wise, that arch traitor to the rights of humanity, Lord Dunmore, should be instantly crushed. Uh oh, you pissed off George Washington. I don't think this is going to go well for you. Moving forward, Dunmore. All right, so now It's December of 1775. Lord Dunmore launched one last major offensive. He fled to Norfolk to rally his troops, including the Ethiopian regiment. Norfolk was a key economic and military hub, and the main entry point, Great Bridge, was quickly fortified with a stockade called Fort Murray. During the Battle of Great Bridge, however, the Patriot militia easily overran the British forces. Only one Patriot was wounded, while the British suffered about 100 casualties. By 1776, the revolution was in full swing, and Dunmore's attempts at reinforcements had spectacularly failed. Helping the very people he was supposed to be fighting, no matter how hard he tried, regaining control of Virginia was off the table. He packed it up, left the colonies, back to Great Britain, joined Parliament and threw himself into supporting the Loyalist cause for the rest of the war. But now, from across the pond, you would think leaving the colonies and getting all the way back to England would be the end of Dunmore's drama. Well, not quite. In the 1790s, scandal found him again, this time through his daughter Augusta, who secretly married Prince Augustus. Frederick was actually the King's son, so the King of England's son. In defiance of the Royal Marriage act of 1772, this marriage was declared void. But the couple stayed together for years anyway. Even off the colonial stage, the Dunmores just kept things messy. Dunmore himself died in 1809 at the ripe old age of 79, leaving behind a legacy that is as chaotic as it is fascinating. He freed slaves long before Lincoln, but let's be real, mostly for strategic reasons, and inadvertently sparked revolution in Virginia. All in all, John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore, was the kind of historical figure you'd love to watch on reality tv. Dramatic, scheming and always one step away from disaster. As I heard, it's gonna be on

[Bob Crawford]

the next season of Traitors. Yeah, right.

[Ed Helms]

Or Survivor or something. Final. Interesting note. Many of the black men and women who joined Dunmore's Ethiopian regiment were later transferred north with the 1783 British evacuation of New York. Fearing re enslavement, they escaped to Nova Scotia and Sierra Leone, forming enduring communities whose descendants remain today. That's our story. Can you wrap up today's snafu in three words? Bob Crawford.

[Bob Crawford]

Hmm? Don't mess up.

[Ed Helms]

I think that works. Yeah. I mean, that could apply to A lot of things, but, yeah, it certainly applies to today.

[Bob Crawford]

Don't F up.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Pittman]

Perfect.

[Ed Helms]

Well, I'm wondering, any final thoughts on this story? Most people, when we think of the emancipation of slaves, we think of the Civil War. I think a lot of historians actually point to this moment as even if Dunmore's motives were not sort of morally based, they point to this moment as a kind of turning point in the perception of the value of freedom for the enslaved population and the sort of consideration of freedom for the enslaved population in the colonies and what became the United States. And that this was in many ways a precursor to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.

[Bob Crawford]

Right. The freedom was only for those enslaved in the states that were in rebellion.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

With the Emancipation Proclamation, it wasn't this amazing. Everybody's free.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

Like, if you and I were average Americans in that period, 1820 to 1850, we couldn't really conceive of a way or a time that slavery would not exist. You talk about big tech, big slavery. Like, that was an industry that benefited the south and the North. If you lived in Boston, there would be ma. And you were at, like, a abolitionist meeting. A mob may surround the building and throw rocks through the building because the abolition was messing with the status quo.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Bob Crawford]

At the time. So I would be interested to go back and look at at this moment that we talked about today and see what did the abolitionists think of this 20, 30, 40 years after it happened, and how did it play into thinking about what freedom could be obtained and how freedom could be obtained?

[Ed Helms]

Absolutely. There's a very interesting governmental strategic consideration here. Bad leadership doesn't just fail at leadership. It can often mobilize the opposition. Right. So Dunmore, he didn't just make these unpopular decisions. He actively radicalized his opponents.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah. He manifested his downfall.

[Ed Helms]

Right. He radicalized people who might have otherwise just been neutral. So, like his dissolving of the House of Burgesses, the seizure of gunpowder, his Emancipation Proclamation. They weren't just tactical blunders. They were accelerants against his interests. The blowback can just be so much more consequential than simply the failure to advance your cause.

[Bob Crawford]

Absolutely. It happens in history time and again.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. They're just stepping on rakes. The handle flies up and just breaks your nose.

[Bob Crawford]

That's right.

[Ed Helms]

Come on. This was really fun. Bob Crawford, thank you so much for coming on board. Snafu. I want to know about your book, Bob, and I want to know a couple things. First of all, you have a very broad interest in history, but what Is it about this particular subject that pulled you in? And then I want to know a little bit about your process of how you brought this book to life.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, the process is being a touring musician and having hours of downtime. And you know, traditionally musicians, they use those lonely hours off the stage to self destruct, right? To do things that destroy them. I think we're living in a different time and everybody I know, they got projects going on, they got a lot going on. But it did offer me, well, we

[Ed Helms]

got WI fi now we have WI fi, right?

[Bob Crawford]

And so we can read the congressional globe from 1836. I mean, we have the time to do that and the ability, so we can do that. I've always been fascinated with John Quincy Adams as a president and really as his post presidency. And you know, I've got a complicated family life. I did work on the book a lot at home, but man, being on the road, really, it just, it's like you can write books and be a bass player of all things.

[Ed Helms]

So cool. What makes this book a special insight into the story of John Quincy Adams?

[Bob Crawford]

So it tells the story of Adams between 1820 and 1848. And he was a failed one term president who went into Congress and served in Congress for 17 years after his presidency. He's the only president who's done that. And when he was president, he was the establishment, right? Like, so he lost reelection to Andrew Jackson, who was the populist. Think back to 2016, right? Hillary Clinton on paper, man. First lady, senator, secretary of State. Oh, man, on paper, yeah, Perfect president. She'd be great. But the times changed. When it was her turn, the times changed and people were feeling something different. And so they elected Trump the populist. We think of Trump as a populist in which he was Adams, John Adams son. Washington appoints him to a diplomatic post. He's a senator during Jefferson's administration. Madison appoints him to a diplomatic post. He's the Secretary of State under James Monroe. He negotiates Florida into the Union, Oregon Territory, and he basically writes what we think of as the Monroe Doctrine. So you think 1824, this guy's going to walk in. He was born and raised to be president. Not the case. The founding generation were leaving the stage and young Americans, they wanted something else. They wanted a common man for the common man. And that's how they thought of Andrew Jackson. So he has a failed one term presidency and then he does something extraordinary. He goes into Congress and in Congress, he's not an abolitionist, but he begins to align with the abolitionists and he becomes this anti slavery crusader.

[Ed Helms]

Fascinating. And is it out yet?

[Bob Crawford]

March 10th.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, hold up the book for us. Do you have a copy? Let's take a look at this thing. America's founding son. There he is.

[Bob Crawford]

And this is what's really cool about it. There's this guy, Garrett Moreland, and he does concert posters for us. He's just a really great guy and a great illustrator and he did illustrations for the book.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, cool. Oh, those are gorgeous.

[Bob Crawford]

Really, really great. Really, really awesome.

[Ed Helms]

Congratulations on the book. Congratulations on a just epic career and music. I love the avid brothers and I love all the music that you make and I can't wait to dive into this book. It just sounds awesome. Congratulations.

[Bob Crawford]

Thank you, Ed.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. SNAFU is a production of iHeart podcasts and SNAFU Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post production and creative support from Good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbow, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and brand new by Matt Gossen and the Collected works legal review from Dan Welch, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, snafu the Definitive guide to History's Greatest Screw ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com thanks for listening and see you next week. Hey, I'm Wilmer Valderrama and this is Freddy Rodriguez. And we're back. Dos amigos.

[Bob Pittman]

Season two, baby.

[Ed Helms]

Last time, we went deep on our careers, our lives, our art. Art and everything in between. Our big breaks, our auditions, the near misses, the epiphanies, the moments that change our lives forever. This season we're deepening our relationships, creating collaborations. And the door always stays open for a third amigo to pull up a chair. Listen to those amigos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Cino]

On the CENO Show Podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo. Talk about addiction, transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Haddish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm an alcoholic and without this trope, I'm a die.

[Cino]

Listen to Cino's show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.