SNAFU with Ed Helms

Episode: Rachel Maddow and ULTRA

Date: December 24, 2025
Guest: Rachel Maddow
Host: Ed Helms
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts

Episode Overview

This special episode of SNAFU features a deep and lively conversation between host Ed Helms and Emmy Award-winning political commentator and podcaster Rachel Maddow. The discussion dives into forgotten history, lessons from the past, and Maddow’s acclaimed podcast Ultra, which investigates the largely forgotten 1944 Great Sedition Trial, where Nazis attempted to overthrow the US government with the help of American congressmen. Together, Helms and Maddow explore the dynamics of historical amnesia, the importance of revisiting uncomfortable stories, and the role of audio storytelling in making history accessible (and fun).

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Rachel Maddow’s Setting and Mindset

• Maddow joins from rural Massachusetts, humorously noting the presence of an actual 1950s nuclear bunker in her home ([04:42–05:20]).
  • “The cottage ... has a legit nuclear bomb shelter in the basement.” – Rachel Maddow ([05:05])

The Story Behind Ultra

• Maddow breaks down the premise: before WWII, Nazi Germany tried to exploit divisions in the US by supporting American fascist movements and collaborating with members of Congress.

  • Culminates in the Great Sedition Trial of 1944, where nearly 30 people stood trial—and walked free after a mistrial ([07:34–08:31]).

  "They supported a bunch of American native fascist movements ... and they paid a bunch of members of Congress and senators to be on their side ... nearly 30 ... got put on trial and they got off." — Rachel Maddow ([07:34])

The Forgotten Nature of This History

• Both hosts reflect on how significant events like the sedition trial, and military close calls like those covered in SNAFU, remain mostly unknown—even to historians ([08:31–11:36]).

  • The “winners” of history often prefer certain stories be forgotten, especially embarrassments and close calls:

  “Sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of who won and who lost.” — Rachel Maddow ([09:32])

• Maddow notes that those who were central to the plot became “losers” once voted out of office, ensuring their erasure from public memory.

Themes of Authoritarianism and “Why We Forget”

• Forgotten history is often that which makes us most uncomfortable—events that threaten our sense of national identity, or were just too frightening or shameful to be remembered ([11:36–12:24]).
  • There’s also selective amnesia around “heroes”: when a disaster is narrowly averted, it can be easier to collectively forget (“close call, let’s forget about it”) ([12:11–12:24]).

Genesis of Ultra and Maddow’s Research

• Maddow began investigating the roots of Holocaust denial—noticing a surprising US origin—only to find her way to the 1944 trial ([12:53–15:12]).

  “I realized that actually those folks came out of this milieu during World War II ... and they all went on trial ... and then what happened to them?” — Rachel Maddow ([14:09])

On Historical Ambiguity and Storytelling Responsibility

• Maddow praises SNAFU for embracing doubt and uncertainty, highlighting the importance of reflecting messiness in historical narratives ([15:21–17:41]).

  “The messiness kind of gave rise to some really exciting questions ... That was really, like I said, mature and complex and cool.” — Rachel Maddow ([17:01])

The Biases and Gaps in Historical Record

• Maddow notes that prior scholarship on the Sedition Trial was heavily skewed in favor of the defendants, and that she was the first to revisit the story from a balanced perspective ([21:00–22:02]).

  • She relates the story of O. John Rogge, the government prosecutor who painstakingly documented US-Nazi collusion, only to have his findings buried for decades due to postwar politics ([22:21–24:28]).

  “He does create this really valuable historical record. But ... it’s 1961. And this is ancient history. And nobody buys the book and nobody reviews it ... it just disappears.” — Rachel Maddow ([23:43])

Fascism, Authoritarianism, and Why the Right?

• Maddow addresses the recurring connection between antisemitism, racism, and right-wing authoritarianism ([24:45–27:15]).

  “On the right, the way it works is me and my people, we’re the only people who should count as citizens ... Authoritarianism on the right almost always comes with antisemitism ... because you need some out group to define as the source of all the problems.” — Rachel Maddow ([26:09])

• The hosts discuss the challenge of learning from history and the utility of entertaining storytelling as a vehicle for passing on lessons: “You gotta give people some candy with the vegetables.” ([29:22])

Audio Storytelling: Strengths and Intimacy

• Both hosts share their passion for the audio format: its intimacy, power, and challenge ([35:10–38:08]).
  • Maddow feels audio “speaks right into the person’s ear, which is inside their head, which is right next to their brain.” ([38:02])

Ultra Onward: Book and Movie Adaptations

• Maddow is finishing a book based on Ultra, and reveals Steven Spielberg has optioned the podcast for a film—though she notes the long road from option to screen ([39:02–41:01]).

  “Steven Spielberg optioned Ultra to make a movie ... he’s an up and comer. He’s sort of one to watch.” — Rachel Maddow ([39:02])

• Ed Helms quips that he should be cast as O. John Rogge ([41:20]).

Resonance with Present Day: January 6th and Now

• The contemporary echoes of these historical events cannot be ignored. Maddow recounts the uncanny timing of Ultra’s release, coinciding with modern sedition trials ([42:04–42:27]).

  “When the first episode of Ultra was posted ... was the day that the Oath Keepers sedition trial started.” — Rachel Maddow ([42:04])

• They discuss the limits of legal remedies for anti-democratic actions and the enduring responsibility to make history public—even when official institutions fail ([44:08–47:17]).

  “The legal remedy is that the legal solution has failed ... What has to happen is that the people need to know. And obviously people knowing isn’t an end in itself ... but when the people know, they will act.” — Rachel Maddow ([45:24])

Closing Thoughts: Why Tell These Stories

• Maddow and Helms agree on the importance of honest, accessible history as an inoculation against future catastrophes—and that hope lies in an informed, engaged populace.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Maddow on historical amnesia:

  “Sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of who won and who lost ... what the winners most want is for us to forget that the thing happened.” ([09:32])

• On audio storytelling:

  “You’re kind of speaking into somebody’s ear rather than sitting in front of them talking ... it can be intense ... you have to be more precise in an audio environment.” — Rachel Maddow ([35:10])

• On making history stick:

  “Upping the entertainment quotient in direct ratio with the complexity of the story that you’re telling ... that helps” — Rachel Maddow ([27:49])

• On the danger of repeating old mistakes:

  “Humans are dumb, we do dumb things, and we don’t remember what the old dumb things were ... so the new dumb things come around.” — Rachel Maddow ([27:19])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:23] – Conversation begins, with Maddow’s amusing rural setting
• [07:34] – Maddow summarizes Ultra’s story
• [09:32] – Why certain histories are forgotten
• [12:53] – Maddow’s research journey: discovering Holocaust denial’s origins
• [14:09] – Tying deniers to the forgotten WWII American fascist movements
• [21:00] – On bias in the historical record and Rogge’s lost book
• [24:45] – Why fascism and antisemitism re-emerge, especially on the right
• [27:49] – Injecting fun and memorable storytelling into history
• [35:10] – The special power of audio storytelling
• [39:02] – Spielberg options Ultra; adaptation discussion
• [42:04] – When history and current events echo each other
• [45:24] – The lasting remedy: transparency and public warning

Tone and Atmosphere

• Conversational, thoughtful, and often irreverent.
• Maddow is insightful and sharp, but also wry and self-deprecating.
• Ed Helms is playful, appreciative, and matches Maddow’s humor.

Summary for New Listeners

This episode will fascinate anyone interested in hidden chapters of American history, the mythology of national memory, or the craft of compelling narrative. Maddow and Helms together explore not only the remarkable and chilling events recounted in Ultra, but the nature of history itself—and how engaging stories, honestly and entertainingly told, can help inoculate the future against the mistakes of the past.

If you want the lessons, they’re here, and you’ll have a great time learning them.