Rachel Maddow and ULTRA

Summary

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SNAFU with Ed Helms

Episode: Rachel Maddow and ULTRA

Date: December 24, 2025
Guest: Rachel Maddow
Host: Ed Helms
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This special episode of SNAFU features a deep and lively conversation between host Ed Helms and Emmy Award-winning political commentator and podcaster Rachel Maddow. The discussion dives into forgotten history, lessons from the past, and Maddow’s acclaimed podcast Ultra, which investigates the largely forgotten 1944 Great Sedition Trial, where Nazis attempted to overthrow the US government with the help of American congressmen. Together, Helms and Maddow explore the dynamics of historical amnesia, the importance of revisiting uncomfortable stories, and the role of audio storytelling in making history accessible (and fun).

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Rachel Maddow’s Setting and Mindset

• Maddow joins from rural Massachusetts, humorously noting the presence of an actual 1950s nuclear bunker in her home ([04:42–05:20]).
  • “The cottage ... has a legit nuclear bomb shelter in the basement.” – Rachel Maddow ([05:05])

The Story Behind Ultra

• Maddow breaks down the premise: before WWII, Nazi Germany tried to exploit divisions in the US by supporting American fascist movements and collaborating with members of Congress.

  • Culminates in the Great Sedition Trial of 1944, where nearly 30 people stood trial—and walked free after a mistrial ([07:34–08:31]).

  "They supported a bunch of American native fascist movements ... and they paid a bunch of members of Congress and senators to be on their side ... nearly 30 ... got put on trial and they got off." — Rachel Maddow ([07:34])

The Forgotten Nature of This History

• Both hosts reflect on how significant events like the sedition trial, and military close calls like those covered in SNAFU, remain mostly unknown—even to historians ([08:31–11:36]).

  • The “winners” of history often prefer certain stories be forgotten, especially embarrassments and close calls:

  “Sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of who won and who lost.” — Rachel Maddow ([09:32])

• Maddow notes that those who were central to the plot became “losers” once voted out of office, ensuring their erasure from public memory.

Themes of Authoritarianism and “Why We Forget”

• Forgotten history is often that which makes us most uncomfortable—events that threaten our sense of national identity, or were just too frightening or shameful to be remembered ([11:36–12:24]).
  • There’s also selective amnesia around “heroes”: when a disaster is narrowly averted, it can be easier to collectively forget (“close call, let’s forget about it”) ([12:11–12:24]).

Genesis of Ultra and Maddow’s Research

• Maddow began investigating the roots of Holocaust denial—noticing a surprising US origin—only to find her way to the 1944 trial ([12:53–15:12]).

  “I realized that actually those folks came out of this milieu during World War II ... and they all went on trial ... and then what happened to them?” — Rachel Maddow ([14:09])

On Historical Ambiguity and Storytelling Responsibility

• Maddow praises SNAFU for embracing doubt and uncertainty, highlighting the importance of reflecting messiness in historical narratives ([15:21–17:41]).

  “The messiness kind of gave rise to some really exciting questions ... That was really, like I said, mature and complex and cool.” — Rachel Maddow ([17:01])

The Biases and Gaps in Historical Record

• Maddow notes that prior scholarship on the Sedition Trial was heavily skewed in favor of the defendants, and that she was the first to revisit the story from a balanced perspective ([21:00–22:02]).

  • She relates the story of O. John Rogge, the government prosecutor who painstakingly documented US-Nazi collusion, only to have his findings buried for decades due to postwar politics ([22:21–24:28]).

  “He does create this really valuable historical record. But ... it’s 1961. And this is ancient history. And nobody buys the book and nobody reviews it ... it just disappears.” — Rachel Maddow ([23:43])

Fascism, Authoritarianism, and Why the Right?

• Maddow addresses the recurring connection between antisemitism, racism, and right-wing authoritarianism ([24:45–27:15]).

  “On the right, the way it works is me and my people, we’re the only people who should count as citizens ... Authoritarianism on the right almost always comes with antisemitism ... because you need some out group to define as the source of all the problems.” — Rachel Maddow ([26:09])

• The hosts discuss the challenge of learning from history and the utility of entertaining storytelling as a vehicle for passing on lessons: “You gotta give people some candy with the vegetables.” ([29:22])

Audio Storytelling: Strengths and Intimacy

• Both hosts share their passion for the audio format: its intimacy, power, and challenge ([35:10–38:08]).
  • Maddow feels audio “speaks right into the person’s ear, which is inside their head, which is right next to their brain.” ([38:02])

Ultra Onward: Book and Movie Adaptations

• Maddow is finishing a book based on Ultra, and reveals Steven Spielberg has optioned the podcast for a film—though she notes the long road from option to screen ([39:02–41:01]).

  “Steven Spielberg optioned Ultra to make a movie ... he’s an up and comer. He’s sort of one to watch.” — Rachel Maddow ([39:02])

• Ed Helms quips that he should be cast as O. John Rogge ([41:20]).

Resonance with Present Day: January 6th and Now

• The contemporary echoes of these historical events cannot be ignored. Maddow recounts the uncanny timing of Ultra’s release, coinciding with modern sedition trials ([42:04–42:27]).

  “When the first episode of Ultra was posted ... was the day that the Oath Keepers sedition trial started.” — Rachel Maddow ([42:04])

• They discuss the limits of legal remedies for anti-democratic actions and the enduring responsibility to make history public—even when official institutions fail ([44:08–47:17]).

  “The legal remedy is that the legal solution has failed ... What has to happen is that the people need to know. And obviously people knowing isn’t an end in itself ... but when the people know, they will act.” — Rachel Maddow ([45:24])

Closing Thoughts: Why Tell These Stories

• Maddow and Helms agree on the importance of honest, accessible history as an inoculation against future catastrophes—and that hope lies in an informed, engaged populace.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Maddow on historical amnesia:

  “Sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of who won and who lost ... what the winners most want is for us to forget that the thing happened.” ([09:32])

• On audio storytelling:

  “You’re kind of speaking into somebody’s ear rather than sitting in front of them talking ... it can be intense ... you have to be more precise in an audio environment.” — Rachel Maddow ([35:10])

• On making history stick:

  “Upping the entertainment quotient in direct ratio with the complexity of the story that you’re telling ... that helps” — Rachel Maddow ([27:49])

• On the danger of repeating old mistakes:

  “Humans are dumb, we do dumb things, and we don’t remember what the old dumb things were ... so the new dumb things come around.” — Rachel Maddow ([27:19])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:23] – Conversation begins, with Maddow’s amusing rural setting
• [07:34] – Maddow summarizes Ultra’s story
• [09:32] – Why certain histories are forgotten
• [12:53] – Maddow’s research journey: discovering Holocaust denial’s origins
• [14:09] – Tying deniers to the forgotten WWII American fascist movements
• [21:00] – On bias in the historical record and Rogge’s lost book
• [24:45] – Why fascism and antisemitism re-emerge, especially on the right
• [27:49] – Injecting fun and memorable storytelling into history
• [35:10] – The special power of audio storytelling
• [39:02] – Spielberg options Ultra; adaptation discussion
• [42:04] – When history and current events echo each other
• [45:24] – The lasting remedy: transparency and public warning

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Conversational, thoughtful, and often irreverent.
• Maddow is insightful and sharp, but also wry and self-deprecating.
• Ed Helms is playful, appreciative, and matches Maddow’s humor.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode will fascinate anyone interested in hidden chapters of American history, the mythology of national memory, or the craft of compelling narrative. Maddow and Helms together explore not only the remarkable and chilling events recounted in Ultra, but the nature of history itself—and how engaging stories, honestly and entertainingly told, can help inoculate the future against the mistakes of the past.

If you want the lessons, they’re here, and you’ll have a great time learning them.

Transcript

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ed Helms]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep Apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lilly a medicine company.

[Ed Helms]

Hey guys, Ed here. This week we're coming to you with a special episode from the archives. It's my chat with the Emmy Award winning political commentator Rachel Maddow.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Rachel is also the host of the hit show Ultra.

[Ed Helms]

And back in 2023, she and I sat down to talk about our fascination with history and the eerily prescient stories in our respective podcasts and why we.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Do the work we do.

[Ed Helms]

It's probably one of my favorite chats I've ever had on this podcast and so I'm really excited to share it with you again today. Keep listening and we'll be back with a regularly scheduled episode next week. Enjoy.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Welcome back SNAFU listeners. We're back to discuss a dicey subject, a far right coup, an attempt to overthrow the democratically elected government of the United States of America. Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Have to be strong.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Breach of the Capitol? Nope, not that one. In the United States District Court, Washington, D.C. chief Justice Edward C. Eicher presides at the trial of 30 alleged seditionists. There we go. That's the one. That's right, my friends. Back in 1944, the Nazis tried to overthrow the US government with the help of some US congressmen, no less. I'm talking about the Great sedition trial of 1944, which is the subject of a history podcast hosted by Rachel Maddow called Ultra Now. Ultra and SNAFU have a lot in common. Podcasts are deep dives into important moments in American history which are largely forgotten and yet they feel oddly prescient to our world today. So naturally, I wanted to sit down and talk with Ultra's creator. So today I'm coming into your feed with a treat. My conversation with Rachel Maddow about Ultra and snafu. We talk about these two extraordinary stories, forgotten history in general, the roots of authoritarianism, and how it all weaves into current events. Rachel is, well, being a rigorous on air journalist, author and podcaster. She's curious, a deep thinker, profoundly insightful, and pretty damn funny. All of which makes her a hell of a lot of fun to talk to. I really enjoyed this conversation. I learned a lot, and I think you will too. So here it is, my chat with Rachel Maddow.

[Ed Helms]

Hello.

[Rachel Maddow]

Hi, Ed Helmets. It's Rachel Maddow.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Rachel Maddow. It's so cool to meet you. This is awesome.

[Rachel Maddow]

Nice. It's great.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

This is very exciting indeed. I agree. Thanks so much for jumping into our SNAFU universe. So what's happening? Where are you?

[Rachel Maddow]

I'm in rural dirt road, Western Massachusetts.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Dirt road. I don't know that town.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's kind of the ambient vibe where I have. We're really out in the middle of nowhere. It's fantastic.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

What are you hiding from, Rachel? What's going on?

[Rachel Maddow]

You've humans.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah. Okay, that's fair. Are you in a bunker?

[Rachel Maddow]

What's weird, actually, and this is true, the cottage that I'm in right now, this little house in which we built this audio studio and stuff so I can do my TV show from here, has a legit nuclear bomb shelter in the basement.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Because you built it or because it was already there?

[Rachel Maddow]

No, it was there. It was built by whoever had this house in the 50s. And it's got concrete like this and triple rebar. And when we came in to flatten out the floor and make everything, Norma contractor was like, we have to leave the basement.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Can I tell you something? I'm not like a crazy prepper kind of doomsday person, but, like, I would like to have a bunker.

[Rachel Maddow]

It Just seems like a nice option.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah. All right, well, this is fun. I would love to go deeper into apocalypse preparation, but we have some really fun stuff to talk about. First of all, your podcast Ultra was the number one podcast on Apple for what, like five weeks? A bunch of weeks.

[Rachel Maddow]

A bunch of weeks. It was number one, and then it was less than number one, and then it was back up to number one again. So it was really a surprise and very exciting.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, and very well deserved. I listened to it twice. I just had. It was so fun. I listened to it all the way through and then I was like, I gotta hear that again, but I don't have as much time. So I listened to it at like 1.8 speed. And it's funny, when you listen to something sped up like that, everyone sounds unbelievably intelligent.

[Rachel Maddow]

I had the opposite problem, which is that my doctor, who is just my doctor, like kind of my friend, but my doctor texted me all concerned that there was something wrong with me because he had listened to Ultra and he was like, you really. I know you've had issues with depression and stuff in the past, and you really. Turns out he was listening to it on 0.75.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Maddow]

And he thought I was really down.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

That's amazing.

[Rachel Maddow]

He thought he had special medical insight into what was going on with this podcast.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, it's amazing. Ultra, it is an extraordinary story. It is extremely well told, it's incredibly engaging and really, really fun. And I would love to, just for our SNAFU listeners, if you haven't heard Ultra, can you break it down? Just like, what's the basic story?

[Rachel Maddow]

The basic story is in the lead up to World War II, there was a really, really big Nazi. And I mean that specifically. I don't mean like Nazis. I mean the Nazis big Nazi effort to try to exploit what the Germans called kernels of disturbance in the United States. And so they were trying to propagandize us really heavily. They supported a bunch of American native fascist movements that were way scarier than we remember them in history. And they paid a bunch of members of Congress and senators to be on their side for this effort. And it all sort of culminated in the great sedition trial of 1944, when nearly 30 of the folks who were involved with the Nazis in these various plots got put on trial and they got off. There was a mistrial and they were all let go.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

It's so profound, this story. It is so intense and it's totally mind blowing. In your description just now, you said the trial was the Great Sedition trial of what, 19? 40.

[Rachel Maddow]

44.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, 44. That implies that this was, like, a landmark event that we all know and understand. What's so incredible about this story? To me, among. There's lots of things incredible about it, but one of the most incredible things is how forgotten it is. And it's something that I think our podcasts share, which is these sort of forgotten history stories that are insanely important. And one of the historians in your podcast actually says at one point, I'm a PhD in history, and most of my colleagues who are PhDs in history have never heard of this. And so then, of course, the general public has no idea. And I wonder, why is it forgotten?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, I was thinking about the parallels with that and with Abel Archer, with what you cover in snafu, and I think there is something that's important for us to reflect on as people who tell stories and who are interested in history, which is that sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of who won and who lost. Right, Right.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Of course. The good news history is told by the winners.

[Rachel Maddow]

History is told by the winners. And sometimes what the winners most want is for us to forget that the thing happened. And that's definitely. I feel like that's a little bit of the story that you unfold in snafu, like with the CIA doing its assessment of what happened with Abel Archer and whether it was a close call. They're like, no, no, no, it was fine. It was no big deal. Part of the history that you uncover and that you tell in the story. But it's also important that the CIA wants it to be minimized, wants it not to be remembered as a significant thing.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Right.

[Rachel Maddow]

And a sort of different version of that happens in my story. Where the good news ending, to the extent that there is one, is that all of the elected officials who are part of this plot, who are the real bad guys here, the public knew enough. They found out enough about what those guys were up to that they voted them all out of office. Like, all but one of them got voted out of office. And so even though a lot of them were household names, really influential members of the House and the Senate at the time, once they got turfed out by voters who were disgusted by their behavior, they went from being big deals to being losers, and the losers get forgotten. And so part of the history that we have to contend with is how much are the players here minimized in history, either because it's convenient for somebody or because the good guys won and how much does that affect whether this story is easy to find or easy to be told? So I find that dynamic interesting because you have to put yourself then, in the story in terms of how hard it is for you to find these things.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Well, it's a little bit of a scary reality when you think the forgotten stories of history are very often some of the most important because the reason that they're forgotten is that they were either painful or embarrassing or extremely problematic. And yet those are the things that we do have the potential to learn the most from.

[Rachel Maddow]

And the other circumstance in which that happens is because it was a really scary thing, and some Americans or some characters in the story rose up and did the right thing and neutralized the danger.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Right. And that's.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, but that's also those heroes. We also need to learn that story, you know, so it can be like, a deliberate shunt this away. Let's not think about it. But it can also be a, like, whew, close call. Let's forget about it.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

You know?

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah. Okay. So how the hell did you find it? Like, with snafu, we knew we wanted to do a podcast, and we wanted to do something kind of history and irreverent, and we set about looking for the thing. Did you know you wanted to do a podcast and look for something exciting and meaningful, or did you just dig up this story or stumble on it and then say, this has to be told?

[Rachel Maddow]

So I was. I sort of feel like the. All the best stories that I've ever been involved in telling come out of ignorance. Like, come out of legitimate curiosity. Like, I don't understand where this came from or this thing that everybody thinks makes sense to them doesn't make sense to me. And I was going through that sort of train of thought just as part of my news. You know, my day job at MSNBC thinking about Holocaust denial. So we're having this big upsurge in antisemitism and kind of antisemitism wedded to political power, which is a very dangerous thing. And at the core of all of it is this sort of burbling thing where people say the Holocaust didn't happen. And I've always felt like it's not obvious to me how that can exist intellectually.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Sure.

[Rachel Maddow]

Like, it's one thing to be prejudiced. It's another thing to say this obvious thing in history of which we have all this proof. I choose to contend that it didn't happen. And so I was interested in where that came from, and particularly where it came from in the first instance, like, how early on did people start denying it? And what I found, to my surprise, is that Holocaust denial really came from the United States. It didn't come from Germany. And it happened really early on. It happened in the 40s, which is nuts, because there's all these American GIs and refugees from Europe, including refugees from Germany coming here, who are eyewitnesses, who are survivors, who had family members killed or who were liberating the concentration camps. I mean, it's all this irrefutable evidence, and yet this thing emerges in the late forties in the United States and then starts pinging around the world where we're gonna say that didn't happen. So I was interested in where the hell did that come from and why? And who were the characters who dreamed this up, knowing that it was false, but concocting it for a political reason. And in trying to figure that out, which is a story I'm still gonna tell, but I haven't gotten there yet, I realized that actually those folks came out of this milieu during World War II in the United States that we've forgotten about. And they all went on trial and, oh, the judge died in the middle of the trial, and they were all set free, and then what happened to them? So it ended up being kind of the prequel to the story that I wanted to tell, but I realized there was enough there that I should probably tell it.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

That is fascinating. I feel like that's kind of how some of the best stories do come about.

[Rachel Maddow]

Can I ask you a SNAFU question about that?

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Please? Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

I thought the thing that I most admired about the storytelling in SNAFU was your sort of fearlessness about casting doubt on the story. So obviously there's. I mean, for everybody who's listened to it, like, there's lots of twists and lots of, you know, backing up and reconsidering stuff that's earlier been presented. And I wondered, when you constructed the story and when you decided to do it, did you know about the doubt and uncertainty and sort of wooliness of the bottom line of that story when you started, or did you think it was a more certain story when you started and you only got to that, you know, more mature, complex bottom line once you were into it in the middle of the research?

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, it was the latter. Like everything you read about Abel Archer in the sort of. To the extent that it's in the Zeitgeist, just little blips and blurbs, it sounds like a very cut and dry thing. But like anything the More you dig, the more nuanced it becomes. And then it became for us as storytellers, just feeling a kind of responsibility to reflect that nuance and the complexity. You know, even historians have some different perspectives on it that are very meaningful. I don't know, we really wanted to lean into the integrity of it, and that made it a little bit messier of a story. But ultimately the messiness kind of gave rise to some really exciting questions and kind of pontifications, and that's really where we wound up kind of putting the focus in that last episode.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, it makes it more profound and more real. It also makes it more of a contribution to the history of it. Right. To have all the interviews that you do and to have an honest reflection of the real, you know, the legitimate contention with the various facts and the various perspectives on it. It's a. It's a real work of history with all the jokes included. But also it does get you to a more profound place in terms of getting, I think, encouraging critical thinking about seemingly cut and dry episodes. I just thought that was really, like I said, mature and complex and cool.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Go on.

[Rachel Maddow]

Also, you guys, you're just so handsome. And it was just.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

No, that's. I am literally getting chills. That means so much to hear from you, Rachel. I really, really appreciate that. And yeah, we really put a ton of work into it, and so that means a lot.

[Ed Helms]

Using Venmo without cash back is like leaving your wallet open in a wind tunnel. Pick the right card, the Venmo debit card, and let the cash back roll in. It's not a financial miracle, just avoiding a classic everyday snafu. Because with Venmo Stash, you can get up to 5% cash back at your favorite brands. Just pick a bundle of your go tos to shop with your Venmo debit card and earn cash back at them. And you're free to mix things up. You can easily swap out your bundle of brands every 30 days. Earn more cash when you do more with stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cashback per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

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[Rachel Maddow]

I think you had it harder than I did because in my case, the Great sedition trial of 1944 is forgotten. The only histories of it have been written by people who sympathized with the fascist defendants. And so all the histories of it have all been about how they were railroaded and it was terrible that these people were put on trial and how ridiculous this contention that the Nazis were working with any Americans. Do you believe how prejudiced the Department of Justice is against good American conservatives? And so all the history, all the history of it was really biased and all in the same direction and nobody had ever revisited that history looking at it from a more balanced perspective. And so I didn't have to contend with sort of great nuanced, honest broker perspectives on both sides. There was just a bunch of claptrap written about it and nobody had ever done a a broader, less, I think from my perspective, less biased look at the evidence.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

I thought Ragi wrote a book, but were you able to dig that up? Is that findable?

[Rachel Maddow]

Ish. Yeah. I mean, if you want to get a copy of it, I can maybe give you a deal. I think I own all the copies of. Never had like a second printing. It never went anywhere.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

He really did.

[Rachel Maddow]

Sorry.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Tell us who Raghi is, because I just brought him up out of the blue.

[Rachel Maddow]

So Raaghi is O. John Ragi, who is a German American. Interestingly enough. He grows up in the United States, son of German immigrants, speaking German at home. And he's this wunderkind lawyer and prosecutor and Justice Department official. And he ends up being the crusading prosecutor who tries to bring the sedition trial home, who tries to finish it, who fights against the mistrial. And the great twist in my story in Ultra. Is when, as the trials fall, falling apart, Ragi gets leave to go to Germany. And he gets to try to prove his contention that these weren't just conservative Americans who had their own anti Semitic fascist ideas that were actually working with the Nazi government. They're being paid by the Germans. In many instances, he gets to prove that from the German side. And he interviews all these Nazi prisoners. And they in fact prove. Give him all the dirt on all the Americans they were working with. And so he's able to prove the collusion, if you will, from the other side. And by the time he brings those findings home to the United States, we have won the war. Everybody wants to move on. Ragi has become a political figure in a way that he is very much demonized by one side and then ultimately by the other side. And nobody really wants to hear it. And so he does create this really valuable historical record. But by the time it lands, he finally gets it published. He has to fight with the Justice Department to get it declassified. And all this stuff, by the time it finally lands in the public record, it's 1961. And this is ancient history. And nobody buys the book and nobody reviews it, and nobody stocks it in their archives. And it just disappears. Until, you know, all these decades later, that story ends up being of interest to me because of its resonance with our current situation. And thank God he did it, because the record's there. Even though nobody cared about it in his lifetime. And he died in obscurity.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

It just raises so many fascinating questions and issues. Okay, so antisemitism or racism in all its forms, these are things that. That most people agree are bad. Right? They're just bad.

[Rachel Maddow]

Bad and gone. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Right, yeah. They also seem embedded in most modern emergences of fascism. Yeah, I know throughout history, totalitarianism pops up in many different forms all over the political spectrum. But fascism, and I ask this not, not as any kind of indictment of conservatism, but fascism in particular seems to bubble up from the right. Why do you think that is?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, I mean, I do think that there's, you know, there's different types of authoritarianism. Right. And there's definitely, you know, left wing authoritarianism as well, of course. And when you're talking about tyrannical forms of government, right wing authoritarianism, which in some instances is fascism, not always, but in some instances is fascism, ends up having a recurrent appeal in our country and in other western democracies. I think because people don't like democracy. I mean, the basic idea of democracy is that everybody gets a say. And if you think that you and people like you should get a say, but other people shouldn't, that's an instinct that, that people have. And there can be left wing authoritarianism, which is a different drive and comes from a different place and leads to murder, leads to mass murder and terrible things.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Just as much mayhem.

[Rachel Maddow]

Just as much mayhem. But on the right, the way it works is me and my people, we're the only people who should count as citizens. The other people who are technically, you're telling me, ought to be part of this democracy, are lesser than, or evil or they're interlopers. And we not only need to exclude them from the decision making process, but we need to blame them for all the things that are going wrong, wrong here. And we need to exclude them from the decision making process and punish them for all the terrible things they've done. Because if it was just us in charge, everything would be fine. And that's the basic idea. And that's why authoritarianism on the right almost always comes with antisemitism. It's either gonna be anti Semitism or it's gonna be some other thing that looks like anti Semitism that is directed towards some other minority group. Because you need some out group to define as the source of all the problems. Because you, the group are perfect and if you were just given full control, everything would be fine. And it's just, it's dumb and it's simple and it's recurrent and well, humans, we're, we're dumb.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, humans are dumb. We do dumb things and we don't.

[Rachel Maddow]

Remember what the old dumb things were. So the new dumb things come around and we're like, Whoa, wait, you're telling me it's the Jews? You know, shocker.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

There's that great Hegel quote. The only thing we've learned from history is that we learn nothing from history. And I wonder if you have any thoughts on how we can do better. It feels like with modern technology we should be able to be better at learning from history, but maybe we're just not wired for it in our DNA.

[Rachel Maddow]

I think that fart jokes helps. You did that whole riff on the Valentine's I have so many treasons that I love you, Valentine's for spies. And the little fake game show that you inserted into storytelling skill and upping the entertainment quotient in direct ratio with the complexity of the story that you're telling. That helps. I don't know that that's technological innovation, but it's an evolution of our sort of ambition to make these stories understandable, memorable, repeatable. Both on TV and in this kind of podcast and book world that I'm in too. I try to tell stories in such a way that they stick. And so even if you can't persuade somebody else to listen to Ultra, or you can't persuade somebody else to read my book about Spiro Agnew, if you listen to the podcast or if you read that book, you will have absorbed the story well enough that you can give somebody the gist of it and pass it on. And that's what you're doing in snafu. That's the whole idea of doing real history. That's rigorous and honest and intellectually engaged with the ambiguities and all those things. But it's also fun and is also not homework. It's something that's a pleasure. And I think that's. If you've got those skills, that's a mitzvah. That's a service to humanity and to our country to use them that way.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, you gotta give people some candy with the vegetables. Right.

[Rachel Maddow]

You gotta do your Nancy astrologer stuff. It's important. It turns out to be important.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

It is. It's crazy how important astrology was in the Reagan administration. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.

[Rachel Maddow]

Growing up in the 80s in San Francisco, I have to tell you, the fact that Nancy's astrologer was in San Francisco, I remember being, like, kind of proud. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Oh, that's funny.

[Rachel Maddow]

This idea that, like, the Rasputin pulling the strings in the Reagan White House might be this lady in Nob Hill was actually like a source of regional pride for me.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Oh, that's Great. I think the thing that I feel like is missing is. And maybe this is a. Maybe, Rachel, maybe this is a book pitch for us. Maybe we do a book together and it's basically like the lessons of hist. These are the lessons. And then here are the events that teach us those lessons. So you can no longer say, like, well, I don't know how to interpret that, or I don't know what to learn from that. Like, we need a compendium of the lessons.

[Rachel Maddow]

Lesson 17. Stop blaming the Jews.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Yeah, okay. Yes, that's one. Right. Here's why this is a book we need to write.

[Rachel Maddow]

Have a phone that connects between Washington and Moscow. How about that?

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

You have that phone and use it occasionally.

[Rachel Maddow]

But I think that it's interesting to me that there really is a lot of interest in documentary and history stuff. That's a surprise to me, seeing how popular documentaries are on Netflix. When Netflix offers you with literally equal effort, clicking on one side of the screen versus the other, you can watch anything. So many people, people opt for documentaries. There's something. There's a rational and constructive human hunger to learn stuff. And that to me, is very heartening. I feel like, oh, great, that's room to run.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

I agree, I agree with that. And I actually, I think the success of your podcast, to me, was very reassuring. Just the, you know, I think the lessons baked into your podcast are so important and meaningful and prescient. And I loved. I was just so thrilled that so many people were getting.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you.

[Ed Helms]

Using Venmo without cash back is like leaving your wallet open in a wind tunnel. Pick the right card, the Venmo debit card, and let the cash back roll in. It's not a financial miracle, just avoiding a classic everyday snafu. Because with Venmo Stash, you can get up to 5% cash back at your favorite brands. Just pick a bundle of your go tos to shop with your Venmo debit card and earn cash back at them and you're free. To mix things up. You can easily swap out your bundle of brands every 30 days. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cashback per month.

[Rachel Maddow]

Month.

[Ed Helms]

See terms at Venmo Me Stash Terms.

[Sophie Cunningham]

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[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Both of these stories, Abel Archer or Snafu, I should say and Ultra are podcasts. You have an incredible career as a broadcaster. Legendary broadcaster for many, many years. How has this kind of segue back into audio gone and how did it affect how you considered telling this story?

[Rachel Maddow]

It's a good question because definitely sort of falling in love with the story and doing the research and realizing kind of where it was going and what the bottom line of it was going to be and everything. It was definitely an open question as to how to produce it. Like I know that I could write a book about it cause I'm almost done with the book about it now. Or I could try to produce it for TV or try to make it into a movie or do some other thing and ultimately I decided to do it as a podcast because I'm kind of just in love with audio. I think that my background in radio was. I don't know if it stamped a love for audio on me or if I was just wired that way anyway. But when I. Even when I. When I do TV shows and stuff, like, I don't really think about what stuff looks like. I think of the visual presentation of whatever's going on. It's just kind of decoration for the words. And when you do audio, there's this, I don't know, level of. I don't want to say, like, I don't want to be too sappy about it, but there's a sort of level of intensity, like you're kind of speaking into somebody's ear rather than sitting in front of them talking. And it can be intense, and it's also unforgiving. I think you have to be more precise in an audio environment than you do when you have the help of visuals to distract people. So I find it to be more challenging and more rewarding. It's also kind of more the way that I like to absorb information. I don't like to watch stuff as much as I like to listen to it.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

That's interesting. I feel. Similarly, I found myself just devouring podcasts and audiobooks in a way that I never really consumed television. I mean, I watch tv, of course, but I was never, like, addicted to shows or anything. But then podcasts would just suck me in. And I realized this is this incredibly powerful vehicle. And the way that we work with a microphone, it's incredibly intimate, and I love that.

[Rachel Maddow]

I think it's like, oh, my God, I'm pregnant. Oh, Jesus.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

I'm very powerful. My voice is very powerful. No, but I feel when I watch a documentary, especially something historical, a lot of times you can feel the sweatiness of the visuals. They clearly had to dig for something to put here. Like, okay, we're panning over photographs here. We've got some weird visual metaphor happening, or we're looking at reenactment footage. Sometimes it just feels like, okay, we get it. Like, you had to put something there and you didn't have something. But with audio, there's no cheating. You just. It's all. It's all there.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's all speaking right into the person's ear, which is inside their head, which is right next to their brain.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

It's like a laser.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I found that in an interesting way. When we put out the first couple episodes of Ultra, we didn't make up any of the sound. All the sound that we used was real tape. But a lot of people thought that we had faked the news broadcasts, that we had found actors who were gonna speak in weird old transatlantic accents.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

It is hard to believe this, that broadcasters spoke in this heightened tone like that. Yeah, it's kind of wild.

[Rachel Maddow]

But they really told ourselves that old timey news was all very objective and staid and there wasn't any opinion or emotion in it. Yeah, bs.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

No. But they really did talk like this.

[Rachel Maddow]

And they threw all sorts of shade and they were snide and they were, you know, and lots of asides and lots of opinion and that's what it sounded like.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Well, so tell us what's happening next with Ultra, because there's a very exciting sort of next step.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, I kind of can't believe it, but Steven Spielberg optioned Ultra to make a movie out of it. And so he's this guy, you know, he's an up and comer. He's sort of one to watch.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

First of all, huge congratulations. And it's a no brainer. This makes perfect sense. The story is so riveting.

[Ed Helms]

Go on.

[Rachel Maddow]

I hope that that is true. I mean, what I am learning as I am sort of tiptoeing into this side of the world where I have never been before, is that a movie's gonna be made is. You know, you're like, is it?

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

We're gonna ruin it with visuals?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, no, but like, is a movie gonna be made until someone is buying a ticket, receiving their change, and walking into a dark room where a projector is running? I don't believe the movie exists. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot that goes in between optioning a movie and then it actually coming into the world. And so I believe that it's going to be a movie, but we'll see. I know. I mean, you know, I did this. My previous podcast was called Bagman was about Spiro Agnew. And that's also in the movie making process. That's gonna be a focus Features film. But it just takes a long time and there's all sorts of things that happen. And I mean, I'm used to a daily production cable news world where you think of something in the morning and it's on tv, it's. And then you have to stop thinking about it. Cause you gotta do something else the next day. And the time horizon.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

That ain't how we make movies, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

No, I know. I'm learning.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

No, there is a whole. A whole Rigmarole. And you're very wise to kind of hold off on the excitement of having a movie until you're walking in the door. But just having a movie optioned by someone like Spielberg is so thrilling. Or focus features for the Agnew story. Those are just such credible storytellers. And you can sort of feel confident that these stories will be handled very well. I feel like this would be such a cool movie.

[Rachel Maddow]

Both of them feel like movies to me, too. Like, I like, you know, I watch as much, you know, streaming television and miniseries and all that stuff as anybody else. But I do feel like both of these stories, like, seem like, you know, sit down for two hours and watch a single arc in the movie theater. Like, it's. And I. I'd just love for it to work in both cases.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

So I also think I should play Ojan Ragi. I think I should be Ragi in this movie. Right? I mean, that just feels obvious.

[Rachel Maddow]

Obvious for sure.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Okay, so both of our podcasts have a lot of present day relevance and prescience, and. And yours, I think, is really, really intensely relevant to right now. So at what stage in your process did the events of January 6th happen? Were you already working on this podcast?

[Rachel Maddow]

No, I wasn't working on the sedition trial by that point. What was weird is that the resonance stuff. I felt like I got a little kick in the teeth from the universe because when the first episode of Ultra was posted, when we published was the day that the Oath Keepers sedition trial started. So that was weird.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Wow.

[Rachel Maddow]

And then it was eight episodes, and by the time we got to episode eight was when we were waiting for the verdict. So it was really just. That was uncanny. I just felt like that was unsettling almost, but, you know, it also. So I feel like you do in trying to pick the right story to tell, you have to believe in the story on its own terms, sort of regardless of the resonance. Like, yes, there is gonna be resonance, and there are lessons to be learned and things to be gleaned from the past that could help us in our current contention. But I don't feel like you can't let that drive, you know, that has to. A little bit of that is just gonna be stuff that you can't see along the way. I was thinking about it with Abel Archer and Snaf before the Korean airliner was shot down. You highlight how the Russians were essentially paying, were giving bounties to their own side for people who were spotting radar incursions on the radar. And so you were Essentially saying that's bad news in terms of what eventually happens with this civilian airliner being shot down after being misidentified as a military threat in Russian airspace. Well, just within the past week, Russia just gave medals to the fighter pilots who dumped all that fuel on the US Reaper drone over the Black Sea. I mean, it's the same. I mean, I'm sure you weren't thinking about that when you did Abel Archer and snafu, of course. But Russia is doing the same thing monetarily and with military awards rewarding people for doing incredibly reckless things that. That threaten conflict between the east and West.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

Sure. Well, one of the things that I think was really profound in Ultra was this idea that emerged that there was no legal remedy for all of this horrible behavior. The legal remedies failed. There was a mistrial, and then the government basically just gave up on prosecuting these misdeeds and. Because they didn't want the headache. And so Ragi sort of makes the case in that Meet the Press interview that the remedy then must be just transparency and information. Getting it out there, educating the public. That's all you can do. When this bad behavior can't be actually meaningfully reprimanded in some way, all you can do is expose it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

And I think that's very powerful. It's also a little bit terrifying and disheartening. And I wonder if you feel like the January 6th trials have. They've obviously gone a lot smoother than the great sedition trial, but. But is that evidence of progress? Do you think we're doing better?

[Rachel Maddow]

It's interesting because it really does. I think it cuts both ways. I think there is a case to be made by looking back at the fascist movements in this country that were supported by Nazi Germany, including an element of that that operated inside the Congress. There's ways to look back at that. All that story that I tell in Ultra and say some of these things were legit crimes and people should have gone to jail and that, like, crimes were committed here and crimes should have been prosecuted as such, including by some members of Congress where that escaped punishment, I think largely because they bullied the Justice Department into not coming after them. And we're seeing a little bit of that happening. We're seeing some resonance with some of the stuff that's happening right now in our news cycle. But the other. The sort of good news side of what Raghi was preaching on Meet the Press that day is that the people need to know this information. The legal remedy isn't there. The legal remedy is that the legal solution has failed. The legal remedy cannot be used as the sum total of our response here. What has to happen is that the people need to know. And obviously people knowing isn't an end in itself. That doesn't fix it. What he means, what goes unsaid is that when the people know, they will act. And you can trust Americans to defend our democracy and to stand up against tyranny and to reject authoritarianism and anti Semitism and all the other things that go with it. But they need to know that it's happening. And so that calls on all of us. Yeah, I mean, it calls on journalists, it calls on activists, it calls on everybody who can contribute to the public record, including dorks making podcasts down the road. But hopefully it means that a well informed public will make righteous decisions and I want to believe that.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

I do too. And I think that's a good note to end on. Rachel, thank you so, so very much for jumping in the booth here and having this chat with us. It's just really, really fun and I wish you the best of luck with the movie adaptation.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thanks Ed. Thanks. This has been super fun. I appreciate it. It.

[Podcast Host (SNAFU)]

SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me, Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo, Andy Chug and Whitney Donaldson. Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis. Associate producer Tori Smith. Our Senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canney is our production assistant. Our Creative executive is Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to Allison Cohen and Matt Aisenstadt.

[Ed Helms]

Using Venmo without cash back is like leaving your wallet open in a wind tunnel. Pick the right card, the Venmo debit card, and let the cash back roll in. It's not a financial miracle, just avoiding a classic everyday snafu. Because with Venmo Stash you can get up to 5% cash back at your favorite brands. Just pick a bundle of your go tos to shop with your Venmo debit card and earn cash back at them. And you're free to mix things up. You can easily swap out your bundle of brands every 30 days. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cashback per month month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity, they may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.