S4E11: Sophia Bush and the Mona Lisa Heist

Summary

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SNAFU with Ed Helms – S4E11: Sophia Bush and the Mona Lisa Heist

Release Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Ed Helms
Guest: Sophia Bush

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Episode Overview

This episode of SNAFU with Ed Helms centers on one of history’s most audacious and consequential art thefts: the 1911 heist of the Mona Lisa. Ed is joined by actress, activist, and history enthusiast Sophia Bush, who brings humor and infectious curiosity as they unpack not just the facts of the crime but its aftershocks for art, culture, national pride, and even the global idea of “fame.” Through lively banter, personal anecdotes, and sharp insights, they turn the cautionary tale of a world-famous blunder into a story that’s as revealing about people now as it is about 20th-century Paris.

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Main Discussion & Insights

Activism, Identity, and Being “Loud” for Change

[03:21 – 06:19]

• Ed introduces Sophia Bush by celebrating her blend of creative and activist work. He wonders: Why activism, and how did she commit so fully?
  • Sophia reflects: “It's definitely option B in the choose your own adventure... It was probably the most unstrategic thing I could do for most of my career. My whole team has been like, please shut up about the... Just. Can you like, tone it down?” (04:17)
  • She shares a formative quote from her friend: “I think you're the only person I know who’s a full-time activist who pretends to be a full-time actor.” (04:53)
  • Sophia likens her drive to speak up to an artist’s compulsion: “Painters can't not paint. Writers can't not write. I cannot even, despite great advice at times, keep my mouth shut about things that I know are wrong and ways we could be better...” (05:56)

The Joy and Zen of Fly Fishing

[06:19 – 07:37]

• Short diversion on the personal side: Sophia describes fly fishing as “beautiful, meditative... so grounding to me. And… I think it's magic.” (06:43)
• She recalls a cherished memory: a “chicest, gayest trip” with girlfriends fly fishing, linking it to making the outdoors more inclusive for women.

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Deep Dive: The Mona Lisa Heist

Disappearance and Early Investigation

[07:38 – 13:59]

• Ed sets the stage: It’s August 21, 1911, in Paris. Leonardo da Vinci’s “La Gioconda” has vanished from its spot in the Louvre.
• Lighthearted breakdown of the painting’s fame:
  • “She's roughly 30 inches tall and 21 inches wide, which is not large. That's like the average size of your Led Zeppelin poster in a college dorm room.” (09:33)
  • The Mona Lisa’s “eyes famously follow the viewer, thanks to da Vinci’s mastery of perspective… a 2005 University of Amsterdam study found 83% of viewers interpret her as happy, 9% disgusted, 6% fearful, and 2% angry.” (09:57)
• As panic spread, visitors were evacuated and detectives swarmed the museum. Sophia shares her own “once in a generation” backstage Louvre memory: seeing the Mona Lisa without crowds on a private visit. (12:16)

Instant Celebrity, Ancient Art

[14:00 – 18:59]

• Helms: “Almost overnight, she just was thrust into the cultural spotlight and became the most famous painting in the entire world.” (14:35)
• Ed and Sophia detour into fame:
  • Sophia: “[Early 2000s] was the era that literally we drove Britney Spears to madness. The press was not good to women in the early aughts. It called everyone fat, called everyone sluts... And I'm playing... the vixen, and I'm like, what is a vixen?... I read the news for fun. What are we doing?” (16:32 – 17:13)

Origins of the Mona Lisa

[22:00 – 25:25]

• Ed provides Mona Lisa’s provenance:
  • Painted by Leonardo for Florentine merchant Francesco del Giocondo, but never paid for—da Vinci kept it, and after living in royal bathrooms and bedrooms, it arrived in the Louvre.
  • Sophia’s response: “It's intimate... She wasn't just hung in a hall somewhere. She was, like, in private quarters for people.” (24:11)

Vincenzo Peruggia: The Inside Man

[25:25 – 29:16]

• The thief is revealed: Vincenzo Peruggia, former Louvre handyman, who helped assemble the Mona Lisa’s display case and snuck out with the painting on a Monday, hidden under his work smock.
• Sophia’s reaction: “Can you imagine? The anxiety.” (29:16)
  • Sophia notes her own inability to do anything sneaky: “Even when I know I’ve done nothing wrong… I'd be like, what have I done? What don't I remember?...” (29:41)

Aftermath and Global Frenzy

[29:47 – 32:00]

• The Louvre’s panic grows; the theft is a worldwide media event.
• Ed: “News reports began to extend beyond Paris, and in short order, it just became a global scandal... The New York Times correspondent posted an article claiming offers of $5 million for its return... that's more than $169 million in today's money.” (31:23 – 31:45)
• Sophia jokes on price: “If you paid me $169 million, would I try to steal something for someone? … But I wouldn't be able to pull it off.” (31:47)

Suspects: Apollinaire, Picasso, and Artistic Scoundrels

[35:24 – 38:57]

• Speculation runs wild: accusations swirl around poet Guillaume Apollinaire and Pablo Picasso due to past thefts (busts, not paintings) from the Louvre.
  • Ed: “Picasso was so terrified… sobbing. And that would be me.” (38:06)
  • Sophia: “That would be you.” (38:24)
• Ultimately, both are cleared. The real Mona Lisa remains hidden.

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The Recovery: Patriotism, Profit, and the Power of Myth

The Painting Surfaces

[38:57 – 44:37]

• In December 1913, a mysterious letter arrives at a Florentine art dealer’s office: the thief (calling himself “Leonardo”) offers to return the painting to “its birthplace, Italy”—for a $100,000 reward.
• Ed notes the thief's mixed motives: “My Italian pride. But also, give me a little cheddar, right?” (41:29)
• Sophia: “He's like, 'No, I'm doing it for Italy, but also for my retirement.'” (41:26)

Peruggia’s Fate and Mona Lisa’s Afterlife

[44:37 – 47:36]

• The dealer and gallery director confirm the painting’s authenticity and tip off police. Peruggia is arrested and, despite his patriotism claims, clearly wanted money, too.
• Sophia on the painting’s enormous draw: “That’s a whole lot of money France has made on this painting and not Italy.” (47:13)

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Reflections: Fame, Ownership, and Cultural Legacy

The Story Becomes the Artifact

[47:36 – 49:32]

• Ed: “The narrative around the Mona Lisa… became as important and exciting as the painting itself. It’s a reflection of how the story of something can almost matter more than just the reality of it.” (47:47)
• Sophia builds on the analogy: “If there is a character that is not accurate… but it's profitable to others, it's the one that will prevail... I think there's something really interesting about... This woman, the Mona Lisa, seems to be a person in our cultural lexicon. I mean, she gets fan mail.” (48:32)

Cultural Repatriation and Shared Heritage

[50:06 – 52:00]

• Ed pivots to modern implications: “The idea of returning cultural treasures to their rightful home is a very real one… The Netherlands recently returned 119 bronzes to Nigeria... It takes an honest accounting of history to get to these places.”
• He compares shared custody in museums to “when we’re kids, our parents being like, you have to share those toys…”
• Sophia: “It's almost like learning about other cultures is cool, Ed.” (51:57)

Closing Thoughts and Camaraderie

• Ed: “Sophia Bush, you are extremely cool. This has been so, so fun... In a world that is odd, to know you have fellow history nerds out there feels good.” (52:17, 52:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The irony is… the most unstrategic thing I could do for most of my career. My whole team has been like, please shut up about the… The system needs to be agitated. It's a shitty system.”
  – Sophia Bush (04:19)
• “She looks like she swallowed a light bulb.”
  – Sophia Bush, on Mona Lisa’s glow (09:30)
• “Can you imagine? The anxiety!”
  – Sophia Bush, on carrying the stolen painting through Paris (29:16)
• “Picasso was so terrified… sobbing. And that would be me.”
  – Ed Helms, on being interrogated as an art thief (38:06)
• “My Italian pride. But also, give me a little cheddar, right?”
  – Ed Helms on Peruggia’s motives (41:29)
• “If there is a character that is not accurate… but it's profitable to others, it's the one that will prevail.”
  – Sophia Bush (48:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:21 — Sophia Bush on activism and identity
• 06:19 — Meditative joys of fly fishing
• 07:38 — Discovery of the Mona Lisa theft
• 09:33 — Mona Lisa’s stats and mystery
• 12:16 — Sophia’s private Mona Lisa viewing
• 14:35 — Shooting to global fame, art’s version of celebrity
• 22:00 — The early history of Mona Lisa
• 25:25 — Peruggia’s inside job: planning and execution
• 31:23 — The world’s reaction and $5M reward
• 35:24 — Theories: Picasso, Apollinaire, artistic thefts
• 38:57 — Two years later: the thief resurfaces
• 44:37 — Unmasking Peruggia, his “love” for Mona Lisa
• 46:51 — Mona Lisa’s return celebration and legacy
• 47:47 — The story as the real treasure: fame examined
• 50:06 — Ed on cultural restitution and museum ethics
• 51:57 — Sophia’s wry summary: “It’s almost like learning about other cultures is cool…”

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Tone & Chemistry

Ed and Sophia trade wit, warmth, self-deprecating humor, and authentic insights. The episode balances the absurdity of the heist with thoughtful takeaways on activism, storytelling, celebrity, and public versus private ownership of cultural treasure. Their natural chemistry and shared “history nerd” energy make the episode both inviting and educational.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want comprehensive coverage of the episode’s story, themes, and banter—without the ads, plugs, or extra segments.

Transcript

[Sophia Bush]

Here's the thing, and I bet you get this. When you're an actor, people think you must be a good liar. And I'm like, no, I memorize other people's words. I can't come up with them on my own. I'm not like a liar on the fly. Yes, I'm bad at that.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

Guaranteed Human.

[Kal Penn]

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[Ed Helms]

Hey there, I'm Ed Helms and welcome to snafu, the show about history's greatest screw ups. Or more specifically, the show where I lead my brilliant guests through some of the least brilliant moments in history. Today I am joined by someone who wears a lot of hats. This woman is a powerhouse. You've seen her on the big screen, the small screen, and in your podcast feed with the stirring and thought show work in progress. She's an actress, an activist, producer, and all around troublemaker for justice. Please welcome Sophia Bush.

[Sophia Bush]

I like that introduction. Ed Helms. Can I. It's like I want a little recording of that I can pull out of my pocket when I go somewhere.

[Ed Helms]

Well, we're recording. This is a podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

This is fabulous.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, just feel free to use it anytime you want.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm going to admit to you now, I'll be stealing your audio. Thank you, sir.

[Ed Helms]

I. I was trying to think about. I feel like I've known you a long, long time. But then I couldn't place our the sort of origin of our connection. I think it was Represent Us. Did we meet at a Represent Us event?

[Sophie Cunningham]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ed Helms]

Like way back.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh my gosh. I think you're right.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. I didn't know if it was do something or like, I knew we were in the mix on the let's inject hope into working on society's problems. Cause everyone always thinks that's a drag. And it's like, no, it's actually pretty.

[Ed Helms]

Co. Yeah, we were just. Before we started recording, we were talking about fly fishing, which I want to get back to. But I just have a more sort of like meaty question for you because I really love how you have leveraged your platform for meaningful impact in the world.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, thanks.

[Ed Helms]

I am a voter. Time's up. Of course. Your climate work. And I'm just curious, you know, a lot of people with high profile kind of dip into activism here and there. You've done much more than dipping in. Like you're fully engaged. And I'm curious how those particular issues emerged for you. Was it sort of strategic about where you could make the most impact or was it more visceral? Like, these are things I feel in my gut and I gotta speak up about this.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, it's definitely, definitely option B in the choose your own adventure. The irony is you're like, was it strategic? I think it was probably the most unstrategic thing I could do for most of my career. My whole team has been like, please shut up about the. Just. Can you like, tone it down? Could you just pick a charity, go to the gala, like, write a check once in a while. Why do you have to be so agitating to the system? And I'm like, because the system needs to be agitated. It's a shitty system. The way I have come to understand this thing about myself. And I think it's been helpful. One of my best friends is a really brilliant writer. His name's Jedediah Jenkins. And he said something to me years ago. He said, we have a lot of friends that work in creative spaces. And a lot of our friends who are creatives are also concerned citizens. You know, he goes, but you're. I think you're the only person I know who pretend. Who's a full time activist, who pretends to be a full time actor. Like, I feel like you kind of act just so you can maintain this reach. And I used to think that was true. And I think what I've realized over the last couple years is I. The spectrum of my experience as A person needs both. My. My work, whether it's like, you know, jumping in to do an improv show or a movie, is so sustaining to me and, like, my creative gas tank. But the activism that is for everybody else, for community, like, that's my calling. It's like.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Like. Like.

[Sophia Bush]

Painters can't not paint.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Writers can't not write. I cannot even, despite great advice at times, keep my mouth shut about things that I know are wrong and ways we could be better and how the whole point of being on this planet is to, like, be neighbors with people. I can't shut my mouth.

[Ed Helms]

No. That's incredible. I could just, like, go down this rabbit hole for hours. Let me just ask you quickly, and let's keep this part short. What do you love about fly fishing? I have a answer to this, but what is your. What is it you love about it?

[Sophia Bush]

Fly fishing, for me, is in that kind of canon of the American West. And to be clear and, like, I'm sure people will tell me I'm cringe or whatever.

[Ed Helms]

Complex online. Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, I am. I am a horse girl at heart. Like, I'm never happier than when I'm out on horseback, out on empty, you know, land or forests or whatever. And fly fishing is that same kind of beautiful, meditative experience in the land. It's so grounding to me. And. Oh, I just. I think it's magic.

[Ed Helms]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

And I have to say, like, the chicest, gayest trip I've ever taken was taking five of my girlfriends fly fishing years ago. And I look back at the photos, and I'm like, a clue. It was so cool. And it's like. I don't know. I'm. I'm passionate about it. And I'm also really passionate about getting more women out into the outdoors, into spaces where there are often less of us, but where we're. We're actually quite good casters.

[Ed Helms]

All right, let's get into this snafu. We have a really fun one today.

[Sophia Bush]

What do you got for me? It's very exciting for me. I'm nervous and excited all at the same time.

[Ed Helms]

So this is a great early and very literal example of there is no such thing as bad press. We are going to dig into the infamous Mona Lisa heist. Oh. We begin our tale in France. It's August 21, 1911. A Tuesday, to be precise. A local artist by the name of Louis Berud has decided to escape the sweltering August Parisian heat and peruse a few of his favorite works at a local museum. One of the pieces he likes to check out was an oil painting on a poplar wood panel that many love lovingly called La Gioconda. It utilized a stunning, innovative technique called sfumato, a hazy effect blending colors and tones with subtle precision. But when Berud arrived at La Gioconda's normal hanging spot in the museum, she wasn't there.

[Sophia Bush]

She was gone.

[Ed Helms]

She was gone. Now, this may not feel like such a big deal at first, but. But let's just be clear. Lagia Conda is also known by her other name, the Mona Lisa. We are talking about the Mona Lisa and we actually have a photo. Let's get up that photo of the Mona Lisa. There she is. Hello, lady.

[Sophia Bush]

Hello, darling.

[Ed Helms]

Yes, Isn't she incredible?

[Sophia Bush]

She really is quite stunning.

[Ed Helms]

She has achieved this legendary status in large part, as we'll hear, because of this famous heist. But she deserves it too. And she's truly a masterpiece.

[Sophia Bush]

She's so luminous. Look at her. She looks like she swallowed a light bulb.

[Ed Helms]

Yes, let's just get a few facts out. Let's get into the numbers of the Mona Lisa for a quick second. Here's some stats. She's roughly 30 inches tall and 21 inches wide, which is not large. That's like the average size of your Led Zeppelin poster in a college dorm room.

[Sophia Bush]

She's just like a little gal.

[Ed Helms]

That's right. She's a little galaxy.

[Sophia Bush]

She's like a concert poster you have framed in your kitchen.

[Ed Helms]

There you go. Mona Lisa's eyes famously follow the viewer, thanks to da Vinci's mastery of perspective. Psychologists estimate this smile appears to shift depending on where your eyes land. A 2005 University of Amsterdam study found 83% of viewers interpret her as happy, 9% disgusted, 6% fearful, and 2% angry. I love that.

[Sophia Bush]

I've never thought any of those things.

[Ed Helms]

So on that morning, Louis Berud asked a guard, where has the Mona Lisa gone? And the guard wasn't particularly concerned. He assumed it had just been taken out by a staff photographer who was known to remove various paintings to take pictures of them and then sometimes forget to return them right away. But as the hours ticked by and the photographer swore he didn't have it, panic started to set in. By mid afternoon, around 3pm, the Louvre quietly cleared out all the tourists and staff under the pretense of a burst water pipe. Not true. Meanwhile, they called in about 60 detectives to comb through the museum's endless corridors and hidden corners. Which is no small feat because the Louvre is huge. If you laid out all of Its halls and galleries in a straight line, it would be nearly nine miles, which is crazy. Have you ever been to the Louvre? Have you seen the Mona Lisa in person?

[Sophia Bush]

I have. Can I actually tell you the coolest thing that's ever happened to me? Of no. It's like, of no doing of my own. So there are very. There are only five modern artists, like, you know, our. Our era of modernity, who have installations, permanent installations, in the Louvre. And one of them happens to be a dear friend of mine who is, like, an incredibly exceptional engineer and artist who makes moving sculptures. And a few years ago, when he was selected to be the artist of our generation with a permanent installation, I got to go on installation day because I happened to be in France because I was working and the Louvre was closed.

[Ed Helms]

You got a backstage pass to the Louvre?

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, that's.

[Sophia Bush]

So I got to. I got to be there for the day, you know, And I was taking photographs and, like, so excited for him and his family. And then the curator said, would everyone like, you know, quietly, would everyone like 30 minutes to go see a few of our most famous exhibitions? And they took us to see the Mona Lisa. No ropes, no lines, no humans. And it was. It actually made me emotional. I got a little weepy. Yeah, it felt like a. Not even like a once in a lifetime. It was like a once in a generation kind of experience. And I was like, wow, I'm. This is like, maybe one of the coolest things that will ever happen to me in my life.

[Ed Helms]

That is incredibly cool. I went to the Louvre. I don't know, it was probably seven or eight years ago. I've been a few times, but the last visit, I just was like, I'm gonna go by myself. I love going to museums by myself. Cause half the time in a museum, you're either waiting for your friends or family, or you're looking for them or whatever. And this was so nice. And then I remember getting. I was like, I gotta check in on Mona, right? I gotta just give her a little hello. And I get in there, and it's the exact opposite of what you're saying. It was so crowded and full of people in this huge hall. And like, we were saying before, it's small. Like, it's not a big painting, and they're trying to shuffle people through. But I just remember standing. I was probably like a couple, like a hundred feet back. And I just kind of was like, hey, Mona, good to see you. We're gonna make sure we're in Paris at the same time. Soon. So that. So that you can give me like a backstage tour.

[Sophia Bush]

I will absolutely ask if we can go back.

[Ed Helms]

All right, so back into the story. After an hour of frantic searching, the detectives uncovered an empty glass frame in a service stairwell. It was La Gioconda's frame. She had seemingly vanished into thin air.

[Sophia Bush]

And just like that, Bad news bears.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. A massive international scandal erupted. Mona's gentle smirk peppered the front pages of newspapers around the globe. And here's the thing. At the time, the Mona Lisa was certainly considered a masterpiece. Leonardo da Vinci really didn't.

[Kal Penn]

Was not prolific.

[Ed Helms]

I mean, I think he had really only like 25ish. I don't know the exact number, but. But a small number of paintings. And so this was. It was definitely. It had incredible value and was a masterpiece, but it wasn't that well known. It wasn't. Especially outside of France. But almost overnight, she just was thrust into the cultural spotlight and became the most famous painting in the entire world. You and I know a little bit about fame. Was your transition into a famous person sudden or gradual? Was it difficult?

[Sophia Bush]

The phrase that comes to mind is a baptism by fire.

[Ed Helms]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

Did it feel that way for you?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Well, there's certainly these moments where you're just like, oh, my God, like, what. What just happened to reality? It's. It's like so different.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. I mean, certainly it was a shocking experience for all of us who worked together on One Tree Hill, which was my first, like, regular gig on a TV show. I think for me it was especially arresting because I had gone to an all girls, like, super nerdy prep school. I know you're shocked when I'm talking about, like, global systems of oppression. You're like, gee, I. There were 55 girls in my graduating class. Like, I had no kind of experience with the world outside of gorgeous academia. And I'm so grateful for it. My, my passion for learning, my obsession with knowledge, the way I was encouraged, especially in science, which so many girls are. I'm so grateful for it. But I did that. Then I went to college for three years and was literally a philanthropy chair, like nerd all the way through. Kind of trying to get my bearings.

[Ed Helms]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

And to be clear, I started working on my first TV show in 2003. So, like, this was the era that literally we drove Britney Spears to madness. The press was not good to women in the early aughts. It called everyone fat, it called everyone sluts. It was just, it was horrible. And to like, put a hat on a hat. Not only am I working on a teen TV show, which is high drama, all sexy, all the things I'd literally never experienced. But I'm playing the, like, captain of the cheer squad who's a vixen, and I'm like, what is a vixen? Like, I. I, like. I read the news for fun. What are we doing?

[Ed Helms]

Right?

[Sophia Bush]

And so it was really weird for me because I just didn't, like. I look back at photos, and I feel like I can, like, see the goo behind my ears. Like, I had just hatched, and I didn't know anything. I didn't know that a journalist could ask you a question and you didn't have to answer it.

[Ed Helms]

I now like to say when I get asked a question I don't want to answer, I just say, pass. Which is really fun because reporters are like, wait, what?

[Kal Penn]

You. You can't pass.

[Sophia Bush]

Next.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, just. Next question. And they're like, yeah, you can't pass. Like, yeah, I can. I'm passing on your question. Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God.

[Ed Helms]

Use that, by the way. Pass it around.

[Sophia Bush]

I will say, like, given what that journey was like, I'm. I'm also kind of really proud of myself. I'm like. The fact that I'm not, like, sitting in the corner chewing my hair feels like a fucking miracle. So I think we did good.

[Sophie Cunningham]

I don't know.

[Ed Helms]

Amen.

[Sophia Bush]

How old were you when things really, like, exploded in your career?

[Ed Helms]

I was an adult. Like, I have no. I have very little to complain about, but I was an adult. But I also matured very late as a human being. I was. I was an adult by the numbers, but I was still very much a child. I was.

[Sophia Bush]

Really appreciate that.

[Ed Helms]

I was 28 when I got on the Daily show, but that's kind of like what. What we called toy fame because it was basic cable, and it was like. And, you know, it grew while I was on the show, but. But it was. It wasn't. You know, I wasn't getting, like, chased by reporters or anything or. Or tabloids.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

But then the. The office then sort of kicked things up a major notch. And then, of course, the hangover, it was just like, oh, God.

[Kal Penn]

Wow.

[Sophia Bush]

Here you go.

[Ed Helms]

Here we are. This is like a whole new thing.

[Sophia Bush]

But here's the thing. It never ceases being weird.

[Ed Helms]

No, it's always weird.

[Sophia Bush]

It doesn't. Like, I am an adult, and it's still so weird.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, Ed Helms here.

[Ed Helms]

Now, if you're listening to snafu, you.

[Kal Penn]

Probably love a good story, especially the.

[Ed Helms]

Kind that pulls you in, twists your brain a little, and leaves you wanting more. And you also like listening to that story. Well, if this describes you, I've got another podcast you should check out. It's called Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club, and I co host it.

[Kal Penn]

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[Ed Helms]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Ed Helms]

All you gotta do is listen to it. And by the way, listening is reading it is not cheating. So if you want more great stories in your Life, listen to Earsay now.

[Kal Penn]

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[Ed Helms]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Ed Helms]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing if anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine.

[Ed Helms]

Company let's take a trip Back to the 1500s.

[Sophia Bush]

Hit me.

[Ed Helms]

One of the greatest Renaissance artists, Leonardo da Vinci, painted the mona Lisa between 1503 and 1506. Now, why. Why did he paint this very special painting? Well, because wealthy Florentine merchant Francesco del Giocondo commissioned da Vinci to paint a portrait of his W. Lisa Gherandini Giocondo. Also the source of the painting's Italian nickname, La Gioconda.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Ah.

[Ed Helms]

Or in French, La Giaconde. The literal translation of that is the joyful one, or the happy woman, which is a play on both her married name, Giocondo, and her expression in the painting. Francesco never actually paid for the painting, so da Vinci held onto it and wound up taking it with him when he moved to France in 1516 at the request of King Francois I. This is not fact per se, but this is generally the historian's consensus. It's kind of the closest we can get. According to the Louvre's records, King Francoise was enamored with the work and officially purchased the Mona Lisa from da Vinci in 1518. Da Vinci would sadly pass away a short while later in 1519. He was 67 years old, which is, like, pretty. Pretty ripe for that time period.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

So this is when Mona Lisa sort of started bouncing around. She would move from French leader to French leader, allegedly sitting in King Francois King Francoise's bathroom for a short stint.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God.

[Ed Helms]

Then on to the Fontainebleau Palace. Later, Louis XIV would place her at the palace of Versailles, and then Napoleon would keep her in his own private bedchambers. How intimate. Apparently he referred to her as the, quote, sphinx of the Occident. I think this is really evidence of the spell that this painting can cast on people. She wasn't just hung in a hall somewhere. She was, like, in private quarters for people.

[Sophia Bush]

It's intimate.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Mona Lisa was established as part of the French royal collection eventually and was transferred to the Louvre accordingly.

[Sophia Bush]

Question. Yeah, question, Professor.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Yeah. Who.

[Sophia Bush]

Who transferred her to the French collection?

[Ed Helms]

Like, there was a moment. That's a great question, and I don't know the precise answer, but there was a moment where the. The. The royal collection was in. In the late 1700s, the Royal Collection was made public. It was made to be sort of owned by the French people.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

And that's when a lot of that art made it into the Louvre, which is interesting. Yeah. So the Louvre first began showing the Mona Lisa on public display in 1804. Fast forward about a century, and the Mona Lisa belonged to the people of France. Sitting comfortably in the salon carre of the Louvre along with various other masterpieces. This is before it got its own sort of gallery. But one former employee of the Louvre believed that maybe she belonged elsewhere.

[Sophia Bush]

Dun dun, yeah, you need the law and order like bum bum dun dun.

[Ed Helms]

Now we get into the heist. So we're back in 1911 and the heist of the 20th century was on like Grey Poupon. So who took the Mona Lisa? Well, was it an international crime syndicate? Was it Napoleon's ghost desperate for some new bedroom decor? Was it a time traveling Banksy perhaps? No, it is none of the above.

[Sophia Bush]

No, no, no.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And now there is a swarm of detectives, 60 some odd detectives following a myriad of leads and all the while she's actually just a few blocks over from the Louvre, resting in a trunk with a false bottom owned by a man named Vincenzo Perugia. I think we have a photo of Vincenzo here. Let's take a look at this man.

[Sophia Bush]

Look at him. A literal mustache twirl.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, yeah, a little bit of, yeah, I mean he's, he, he's, he's got that energy. He's Italian. He's an Italian immigrant and living in, in Paris, something of a handyman and he had been employed at the Louvre.

[Sophia Bush]

Interesting.

[Ed Helms]

There are various reports of how the act of the heist actually went down. But all told, it was quite seamless. Peruggia had been employed by the Louvre and in fact in one of his duties he had helped construct the glass case that held the Mona Lisa. So he knew exactly how it sort of came together and came apart and precisely how to remove her quite carefully. Now interesting side note, he apparently suffered a lot of discrimination as an Italian immigrant in France and had a bit of a grudge against French society.

[Sophia Bush]

Understandable.

[Ed Helms]

Which he will claim played into his actions. And as we'll learn later, on Monday, August 21, 1911, Perugia entered the museum at a time when it was only open to staff. Mondays were cleaning days. Now some reports say he actually hid.

[Kal Penn]

The night before in a supply closet.

[Ed Helms]

And then emerged on that Monday morning. In any case, he was wearing a workman's smock, so kind of, you know, fit in with the staff. He snuck into the hall, removed the painting in this glass case, which at the time they were worried I guess about graffiti and things. So it did have a glass case. It's nothing like the bulletproof thing it's behind now. And it weighed, it was quite heavy, but he got it off the wall. Other reports say he had two accomplices there's different details floating around, but managed to get this bulky glass case into a stairwell where he was able to open the case and pull out just the painting, this piece of poplar with some oil paint on it. And then he just was able to stroll out onto the Rue de Rivoli. Yes. Another cool sort of fun detail. He actually found himself locked in to the Louvre because it was a working day. They weren't allowing the public in on this Monday, and he wasn't able to get out the way he thought. But then a plumber, a Louvre, like, staff plumber, walked up and was like, ah, no problem. I'll help you out. Here you go. And, like, helped him through the door. So off he goes. And he's carrying the painting just down the street under his smock, apparently.

[Sophia Bush]

Can you imagine?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. No, it's nuts. It's nuts.

[Sophia Bush]

The anxiety.

[Ed Helms]

I feel like what makes me not a criminal mastermind is like, I. As soon as I even start to think about that, I just start sweating.

[Sophia Bush]

By the way, I am the. It is so far in the degree of panic for me, even when I know I've done nothing wrong.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

If you were like, hey, hey, I need to talk to you later, I'd be like, what have I done? What don't I remember? And then you're, what did I maybe do? And not the same way.

[Ed Helms]

What childhood trauma led us into this? It's so annoying. I mean, and like this. And it's also very interesting that fear of being perceived as guilty can actually make you act more guilty.

[Sophia Bush]

Absolutely.

[Ed Helms]

And this will emerge in just a few minutes.

[Sophia Bush]

And here's the thing, and I bet you get this. When you're an actor, people think, you must be a good liar. And I'm like, no, I memorize other people's words. I can't come up with them on my own. I'm not like a liar on the fly. I'm bad at that.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

Did he get caught because he was a panicky little potato?

[Ed Helms]

No, no, no, no, he didn't. But it gets interesting. So local police concluded that they just. Eventually, it took, like, 24 hours talking to the photographer and, you know, looking everywhere. They finally realized, like, this thing is gone. Like, it's. It's stolen. And word spread fast. News reports began to extend beyond Paris, and in short order, it just became a global scand. Like, how could such a prominent museum lose one of their masterpieces? A French publication called Lilustration wrote, quote, what audacious criminal, what mystifier, what maniac Collector. What insane lover has committed this abduction?

[Sophia Bush]

Insane lover?

[Ed Helms]

Yes. Like a French publication goes right to like, he must love this painting. He's an insane lover. Or he's doing it for his lover's love.

[Sophia Bush]

He is obsessed with her.

[Ed Helms]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

He loves his Mona Lisa.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, it's so good. It's so French. I love it. The New York Times correspondent posted an article claiming offers of $5 million for its return. Now, that's. It's unclear if those were actually real, but that's more than $169 million in today's money.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Ed Helms]

I know. It's kind of feeling worth it.

[Sophia Bush]

Media if you paid me $169 million, would I try to steal something for someone? I. But. But I wouldn't be able to pull it off. So, no, I can. I can ask myself the question. But I already know, even in. In theory, I'm going to fail.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, boy.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, Ed Helms here.

[Ed Helms]

Now, if you're listening to Snafu, you.

[Kal Penn]

Probably love a good story, especially the.

[Ed Helms]

Kind that pulls you in, twists your brain a little, and leaves you wanting more. And you also like listening to that story. Well, if this describes you, I've got another podcast you should check out. It's called Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club, and I co host it.

[Kal Penn]

With my good friend Kal Penn.

[Ed Helms]

Each week, we dive into some of the most compelling new audiobooks from Audible.

[Kal Penn]

Thrillers, reimagined classics, comedies.

[Ed Helms]

And we bring in amazing guests to.

[Kal Penn]

Help us unpack them.

[Ed Helms]

Think of it like a book club.

[Kal Penn]

But with zero pressure to actually crack open the book.

[Ed Helms]

All you gotta do is listen to it. And by the way, listening is reading it is not cheating. So if you want more great stories in your Life, listen to Earsay now.

[Kal Penn]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[Ed Helms]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kal Penn]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Ed Helms]

The art curator of the Louvre said that he had a gut feeling that it was stolen so that thieves would attempt to copy it. But he wasn't gonna let that, or even like return a copy and hold onto the original. But he would not let that fly because, quote, I studied the picture for years, mounted and unmounted. I know every minor detail of it and I would recognize a copy, however, perfect, after five minutes observation.

[Sophia Bush]

Amazing.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, so that's a quote. So obviously quite cocky about his painting analysis skills.

[Sophia Bush]

Clearly.

[Ed Helms]

But it's actually true because he was an expert. As the curator of the Louvre, he knew a lot about what's called craque lure, which is the tiny little cracks and fissures that form over time as an oil painting ages. The Mona Lisa up close is quite cracked. Like it's covered in sort of checking and cracking. And that is, that becomes something of a DNA signature or a fingerprint for a painting, because that's virtually impossible to duplicate.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

You can duplicate cracking, but to match.

[Sophia Bush]

Not in all the right places.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, exactly. It's just gonna be impossible. So naturally, lots of odd theories and false accusations are flying all around. One claimed that JP Morgan, the American banker, had the picture stolen so that he could keep it in his private collection.

[Sophia Bush]

Shut up.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. A renowned poet by the name of Guillaume Appoyner became a suspect. He was. Forgive my French accent, by the way. I'm kind of cocky about it, but I know it's terrible.

[Sophia Bush]

It's not terrible.

[Ed Helms]

So Apolliniere Was one of the rare folks who apparently was not a fan of the painting and at one point had joked about burning the Louvre down. But he was like. He was kind of a sort of counterculture poet, bohemian, just in the.

[Sophia Bush]

Like a. Almost like a comic.

[Ed Helms]

Sure, yeah. And he was well known. He was something of a celebrity in French sort of artistic culture at the time. Apoigniere's trail led to a shocking second suspect. Pablo Picasso.

[Sophie Cunningham]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Yes. Isn't this wild? They thought that Picasso might have stolen the Mona Lisa.

[Sophia Bush]

Shut up. Up for what?

[Ed Helms]

Well, the link between Apoignier and Picasso was this shady buddy that they had who had. Who had stolen Iberian busts for them from the Louvre. Like they did have stolen property from the Louvre. Why?

[Sophia Bush]

Why?

[Ed Helms]

Why?

[Sophia Bush]

Why? Because they wanted to learn to copy them? Or just because they thought it was, like, funny and they were a bunch of crazy drunks?

[Ed Helms]

I don't know the. I don't know the. The truth of that answer, but I do know that.

[Sophia Bush]

How could you not know?

[Ed Helms]

Well, Picasso did also paint one of the busts, so it was for artistic reasons, presumably, but, like, also, why a stolen thing anyway? It's so badass that Picasso had a stolen bust from the Louvre.

[Sophia Bush]

It really is. It makes me like him more.

[Ed Helms]

Police investigated them, and this is where that guilty thing gets in. Because I read a thing about how they were questioned, and Picasso was so terrified and overwhelmed with fear that. That he was sobbing. And that would be me.

[Sophia Bush]

That would be you.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And acting so guilty that they were just like, you couldn't have done this. You're too much of a wimp. You don't have the sort of fortitude to pull something like this off. But it is a wild connection. Anyway, after considerable questioning, both Apollinier and Pablo Picasso were let go. And they were not suspects any longer. Another two years goes by Sophia Bush. They don't find it.

[Sophia Bush]

Two years.

[Ed Helms]

Two years. And they're starting to think, oh, my God, maybe the Mona Lisa is gone forever. Until In December of 1913, a Florentine art and antiquities dealer, Alfredo Geri. Now, I do have. My Italian accent is horrific, but I'm just gonna. I'm diving all in. Alfredo. Jerry. I also like to do it like this. I put on this voice for it.

[Sophia Bush]

A little bit of Brando.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, sure. He received an odd correspondence from a man calling himself. Wait for it. Leonard. Or Leonardo, perhaps. Yeah. Calling himself Leonardo, this mystery man claimed he had stolen the Mona Lisa and wanted to return it to its birthplace. Italy.

[Sophia Bush]

Wow.

[Ed Helms]

So he's now claiming that he stole it for patriotic reasons.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

Jari was suspicious, but intrigued. He agreed to meet with this mysterious Leonard at the Tripoli Italia hotel in Florence and brought along with him the Uffizi Gallery director, Giovanni Poggi.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

The Uffizi Gallery, obviously being like the Louvre of Italy. And this guy knows his shit, let's put it that way.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

So the three men arranged to meet in Leonard's hotel room, where a wooden trunk was waiting. Leonard removed a false bottom from the trunk, and there, wrapped in a red silk cloth, was the Mona Lisa, La Giaconda. La Giaconda. Yes, the Giacond one. Pretty dramatic reveal, right? A red silken cloth.

[Sophia Bush]

This is really giving Thomas Crown Affair.

[Ed Helms]

Yes, Right.

[Sophia Bush]

And I like it.

[Ed Helms]

I do, too. So our Italian art dealers, they're no fools. They are, like, pretty sure this is the real deal, and they play it very cool. They confirm its authenticity. And Geri and Poggi pretended to agree to this, to Leonard's asking price of $100,000. And. And they sort of kept him on the hook. Now, that's $100,000 at that time is $3 million today. It was not too shabby. And this is the primary thing that sort of throws his patriotic motives into question. Right. It's like he's also kind of asking for a big paycheck here, right?

[Sophia Bush]

He's like, no, I'm doing it for Italy, but also for my retirement.

[Ed Helms]

He's like, my Italian pride. But also, give me a little cheddar, right? Like a little mozzarella with this, perhaps.

[Sophia Bush]

That tracks for a thief.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, exactly. So they told Leonard that they needed to take the painting to the Uffizi Gallery to further confirm that it was the real thing before they paid him. Yeah. But then, of course, they immediately alerted the police, and Peruggia was arrested the next day on December 11, 1913, in his hotel room. Boom. Caught in the act. Perugia. Yeah. They got him. They snagged him.

[Sophia Bush]

They got him.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Wait, but so then what happened? What happened to the handyman from the Louvre and everybody else involved?

[Ed Helms]

Well, Peruggia is that handyman.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, he is the handyman.

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, yes. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, gosh.

[Ed Helms]

I don't know why he held onto it for years.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm wondering, do you think that it was always his plan to, you know, do it for the home country? Or do you. Do you think he wanted to see if he could, and then it was such a scandal that he kept it in a trunk and was like, oh, shit, well, what do I do? Or maybe it was a little mixed up.

[Ed Helms]

I think it's a bit of columns A, B, and C here, because there is evidence that he did suffer discrimination and had a grudge against sort of French society culture. And also that. That this painting being such an icon of Italian culture and Italian sort of. Sort of brilliance and excellence in the arts, his having a sort of. It would clock that he would then see that as a sort of righteous target to take and as almost as like a punishment to the French. This is my speculation. I don't know how much evidence there is of this, but. But I think. But this sort of tracks in my mind and then realizing after a couple of years that, like, he's sitting on a seriously hot potato that he can't sell, or, like, there's no one that'll fence the Mona Lisa, especially after, like, worldwide headlines. And then he's like, okay, now I have to sort of create this narrative that I can sell it to these Italians for the. For the right reasons, and maybe they'll, like, buy it and let me sort of be. Stay anonymous. But of course, they're like, no, you're busted. Like, you.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. They're like, we're not stupid. We can't hang this in our museum and be like, yeah.

[Kal Penn]

Oh, look what we found.

[Ed Helms]

We just found. It just floated down the river.

[Sophia Bush]

But now that it's here, we're not going to. We're not sending it back. It doesn't work.

[Ed Helms]

Like, Exactly. All right, so. Perugia. This is. This is really cool. Perugia also said that over time, he felt he, quote, fell victim to her smile and feasted my eyes on my treasure every evening. I fell in love with her, he said, which is more sort of evidence of her spell, her sort of mystical powers. But, yeah, wow.

[Sophia Bush]

She was a hot. She was a hot idol.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, she was a hot tamale there. After, of course, this was all discovered and he was arrested and found guilty. It was returned to France. And we have a photo of her giddy homecoming at the Louvre. Let's see.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Wow.

[Ed Helms]

Obviously a huge party. You can see how everyone's just dancing with reckless abandon and glee. I love how the guy holding her looks like her legs.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, that's a little bit of something.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. You can kind of see. You can't see the guy's face who's actually holding the painting, but you can see his legs.

[Sophia Bush]

But you can see his little top hat, too.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. It almost feels like he'd pop through the frame were it not so valuable.

[Ed Helms]

I wish we could go back to this style. I love all the mustaches and top hats and trench coats. Although I must say, they do look hot. Like, I mean, they look hot as in, like, spicy hot, but they also look like they're probably sweating under all that wool.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, it's also one of those things, like, I don't know about you, but we have air conditioning and, like, we can wear linen in the summer. Now I look at pictures like this and I think, like, oh, I know why they used to have fainting couches.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, there you go.

[Sophia Bush]

It makes sense.

[Ed Helms]

There you go. I love that. You know, you're so right. Upon Mona Lisa's return to France, everyone wanted to get an eye on this new mythical painting. Over 120,000 people came to see her. In just two days, da Vinci's painting had exploded into the cultural stratosphere. All the press and news coverage took the painting to the next level. So what happened to our man, Vincenzo Peruggia, the art thief? Well, he was tried in Italy where he again, he claimed that he was stealing the painting for patriotic reasons. He became something of a folk hero and he was sentenced to a year in prison, but he wound up only serving about seven months before, this is right before World War I, which then broke out and he left prison, joined the army, fought for Italy, and then wound up dying in France in 1925.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, gee.

[Ed Helms]

As for La Gioconda, her smile still smites 8 million visitors per year. 8 million visitors go and see the Mona Lisa every year. Which is. That's insane. And she's so popular that she has her own mailbox at the Louvre because. Yeah, she gets so much direct fan mail.

[Sophia Bush]

What an odd thing to write a letter to a painting. Yeah, interesting, I guess when I hear you say 8 million people a year go to France to visit her. I think, look, the guy was clearly misguided and obviously a little fantastical in his storytelling about his motivations, but that's a whole lot of money France has made on this painting and not Italy.

[Ed Helms]

You're raising a really interesting. A really interesting question that I think this story brings up. There are a couple of, I think, kind of high altitude takeaways from this story. One is just how the narrative around the Mona Lisa, like her theft, the scandal, the recovery, it just, it became as important and exciting as the painting itself. And it's kind of a reflection of how the story of something can almost matter more than just the reality of it. Right. I mean, that's certainly true, I think, for celebrities, like, celebrities Cultivate stories and kind of narratives. We often find out, like, oh, that person was not what we thought. I don't just mean celebrities. I mean, like public figures, politicians, whoever.

[Sophia Bush]

They'll kind of cast you as a character.

[Ed Helms]

Correct.

[Sophia Bush]

Rather than highlight your reality. And the interesting thing is, I think when you become a media figure, if there is a character that is not accurate or not honoring the nuance of your life, but it's profitable to others, it's the one that will prevail. And that's tough, that sucks. And so I think there's something really interesting about. I don't know. It's crazy to me that this woman, the Mona Lisa, seems to be a person in our cultural lexicon. I mean, she gets fan mail.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And she's a painting. There's something wild about that.

[Ed Helms]

She's magical, in my view. It sort of took this heist for people to truly see, like, how sort of mystical and powerful she is. And obviously Leonardo da Vinci is such a legend for so many reasons, as a scientist and a painter and all these things. And this work is truly special.

[Sophia Bush]

It almost strikes me like it's momentum, circular momentum. Something started it. And I would wager that to your point at the top of the episode, you know, the haze, the kind of the colors, the way her eyes follow you, things that had never been done before were very arresting for people. But then people like to feel like they're in on something. So when they hear that this thing is very arresting, then they say, oh, I was so arrested by this painting. And then the whole thing just grows.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. This story also very much raises the very real question about repatriation. Of course, Peruggia was, I think, claiming that he was repatriating the Mona Lisa for sort of cynical reasons to maybe help exonerate himself. Although there probably was also some national pride that wrapped up in him, or resentment for French culture. But the idea of returning cultural treasures to their rightful home is a very real one. And it's something that. That has bubbled up more and more. And I think, just for example, the Netherlands recently returned 119 bronzes to Nigeria, which had been looted in the 19th century. And they're finally back where they belong after 130 years. To me, that's inspiring proof that even old injustices can be addressed through dialogue. It takes an honest accounting of history to kind of get to these places. A lot of museums are now experimenting with shared custody of items, rotating collections, so that people around the world can access all of this history. And that Reminds me of, like, you know, when we're kids, our parents being like, you have to share those toys, right? You have to share those books. Right? Everybody gets a turn. And it strikes me that whether we're talking about art or stories or. Or history itself, the more we treat it as something to be passed around and experienced by everyone, the richer it all becomes. I don't know. I think that's some.

[Sophia Bush]

I totally agree.

[Ed Helms]

That's some hopeful shit.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, it is. It's almost like learning about other cultures is cool. Ed.

[Ed Helms]

Get outta here.

[Sophia Bush]

Get outta here.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's almost. Yeah, it's almost like learning about history is cool. Does that make me cool? I don't know.

[Sophia Bush]

It's pretty cool. I think so.

[Ed Helms]

Sophia Bush, you are extremely cool. This has been so, so fun. I feel like I run into you every, like, I don't know, it's like a year. A couple years go by, I get. And then I get to high five you somewhere. And this has been like such a fun hang. And I'm so grateful that you came on.

[Sophia Bush]

Thanks. In a world that is odd to know you have, like, fellow history nerds out there. Feels good.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. We got homies. Yeah, we do. Snafu is a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Michael Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith.

[Kal Penn]

Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris.

[Ed Helms]

Logo and branding by the Collected Works Legal review from Dan Welch, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horne.

[Kal Penn]

Lane Klein and eric.

[Ed Helms]

Everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Itor, Nathan Otoski and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to.

[Kal Penn]

Pick up a copy of my book.

[Ed Helms]

SNAFU the Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com thanks for listening and see you next week.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Kal Penn]

Using Venmo without cash back is like leaving your wallet open in a wind tunnel. Pick the right card, the Venmo debit card and let the cash back roll in. It's not a financial miracle, just avoiding a classic everyday snafu. Because with Venmo Stash you can get up to 5% cash back at your favorite brands. Just pick a bundle of your go tos to shop with your Venmo debit card and earn cash back at them and you're free to mix things up. You can easily swap out your bundle of brands every 30 days. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See Terms at Venmo Me Stash Terms.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

Guaranteed Human.