S4E13: Jon Lovett and the Donner Party

Summary

SNAFU with Ed Helms - S4E13: Jon Lovett and the Donner Party

Date: December 31, 2025
Guests: Jon Lovett (Pod Save America, Crooked Media)
Theme: A comic but insightful deep dive into the infamous Donner Party disaster, exploring themes of American optimism, disastrous shortcuts, cannibalism, and what the story reveals about human nature—with sharp comedic banter and personal asides.

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Episode Overview

This episode of SNAFU focuses on the tragic and infamous story of the Donner Party—the group of westward pioneers trapped in the Sierra Nevada in 1846, resulting in starvation and eventual cannibalism. Host Ed Helms and guest Jon Lovett examine both the practical blunders and larger cultural meanings of the Donner Party, using trademark humor and personal anecdotes to connect the historical fiasco to modern life, resilience, and what it means to hope in the face of grim odds.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage & Guest Introduction

• [01:37] Ed Helms introduces Jon Lovett as a “whip smart, world class communicator,” praising his comedic timing and ability to maintain hope despite engagement with America’s political turmoil.
• Hope vs. Anger as Motivation ([03:15])
  • Jon Lovett: “The truth is, for me, I think hope's important...But it's never been my motivator, to be honest. I've always been motivated by anger...these problems are solvable.”
  • He describes anger not just at political opponents but at solvable problems going unfixed, using a “nacho buffet line” anecdote to illustrate his need to fix dysfunction, large or small.

2. Survivor, Cannibalism, and Segue to the Donner Story

• [06:07] Lovett jokes about only missing three dinners on his Survivor stint—well short of pondering cannibalism.
• Ed Helms segues into the episode’s main history lesson: “Today's snafu does involve actual cannibalism...We're talking about the Donner Party.” ([06:42])

3. Background: Manifest Destiny & Pioneer Mindset

• [06:57] Helms contextualizes 1846 as an era of Manifest Destiny (“the 19th-century version of ‘I want it and God said I could have it’”), highlighting settlers’ motivations as practical, not adventurous.
• Personal Reflections on Starting Over ([07:47])
  • Lovett recounts his own youthful fantasy of "going west"—ultimately ingesting it with a dose of “Jewish pragmatism” by making Alaska about “becoming a paralegal.”

4. The Donner Party: Cast and Catastrophe

• Party Members Introduced ([09:27]):
  • Brothers George and Jacob Donner, the Reed family, teamsters (“oxen drivers, not union truckers—more hay, less honking”).
• Teenage Hierarchies on the Trail:
  • Helms recounts the wagons’ amenities through Virginia Reed’s perspective.
• Lovett’s Own Road-Trip Disaster ([11:54])
  • Lovett humorously describes his experience of gastrointestinal distress on Air Force One (“I’m shitting my brains out on Air Force One while it’s landing...a high, high, low low day”).

5. The Actual Fiasco: Disaster in Stages

• Late Departure ([16:03])
  • The Donner party left nearly a month late—“May 12th is way late in the season.”
• Travel Planning Analogies ([16:48])
  • Both hosts riff on obsessiveness, cell-phone navigation, and the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology.
  • Quote:
    • [17:42] Ed Helms: “Hot take, John Lovett. I think the Internet might be bad.”
• Hastings Cutoff Debacle ([18:47])
  • Enter Lansford Hastings, a conman pitchman for a shortcut to California he’d never traveled, adding 125 miles and costing weeks.
  • Modern parallels:
    • Lovett: “If there was a Reddit forum in 18...it would have said do not do Hastings Cutoff.”
    • [20:51] Discussion of how both then and now, people fall prey to shortcuts pitched by smooth talkers with nice mustaches.

6. Fights, Division, and Desperation

• Reed’s Banishment ([21:30])
  • Reed kills John Snyder during a fight; rather than hang him, the party banishes Reed with only a horse.
  • Survivor parallels—Lovett describes being voted off and the “consolation menu.”
• Small acts of love: Virginia Reed sneaks supplies to her father.

7. Trapped by Snow and Cannibalism

• Winter Strikes ([24:44])
  • Trapped by five feet of snow, supplies dwindle.
• The Forlorn Hope ([25:38])
  • A group of 15 sets out with homemade snowshoes; most die, but some reach help.
• Did the Donner Party really become cannibals?
  • Lovett: “Yes, I do.”
  • Helms confirms, citing historian Michael Wallace—cannibalism did occur but largely involved the deceased, not murder-for-food.
  • Monty Python & ortolan references used for comic relief.

8. Rescue and Grim Aftermath

• Relief Efforts ([32:56])
  • Banished Reed, now in California, rallies rescue parties after telling his story in what becomes San Francisco.
• Multiple Rescue Waves—first crew saves 23, including Margaret and Virginia Reed, but youngest children must be left behind.
• Cannibalism Logistics & Dark Humor
  • Lovett & Helms riff on “respectful” methods of cannibalism (spicing or not spicing, which cuts to eat first, etiquette of eating friends), blending morbid and absurd.
    • [35:17] Lovett: “Is it more respectful to eat human flesh unseasoned...or as tasty as possible?”
    • [42:13] Lovett: “I haven’t been going to Pilates all this time to have you not eat my ass.”

9. Wider Lessons and Modern Parallels

• Survival, Agency, and Modern America ([40:49])
  • Helms: “The Donner Party. Kind of a grim reminder of how far people will go when they’re sold a dream. Ignore the warning signs and follow bad advice deep into the wilderness...”
  • Lovett: “It’s also a reminder that...we gotta keep moving and nobody’s coming, that we have to save ourselves.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope and Anger
  • “Hope makes demands of us. And it requires you to do things.” – Jon Lovett [04:31]
• On Historical Blunders and Today
  • “It kind of feels like America right now in a nutshell: a little bit desperate people promised easy shortcuts, left starving in the cold while the guy who gave them the map is nowhere to be found.” – Ed Helms [40:49]
• On Cannibalism Etiquette
  • “Is it more respectful to eat this human flesh unseasoned so that the aesthetic experience matches the moral experience, or is it more respectful to flavor it, cook it well, make it as tasty as possible so you get the best experience?” – Jon Lovett [35:32]
  • “From the comfort of our respective recording studios… I’m spicing the hell out of it.” – Ed Helms [36:06]
  • “Don’t sleep on the cheeks… I haven’t been going to Pilates all this time to have you not eat my ass.” – Jon Lovett [42:10]
• On Taking Shortcuts
  • “If there was a Reddit forum in 18(46)... It would say: Do not (take) Hastings Cutoff.” – Jon Lovett [20:02]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hope & Anxiety in Politics: [03:15–05:54]
• Cannibalism segue & introducing the Donner Party: [06:07–07:00]
• Manifest Destiny & the “Go West” Mindset: [06:57–08:45]
• Disastrous Decisions (Hastings Cutoff): [18:47–20:51]
• Reed’s Banishment & Family Bonds: [21:30–24:42]
• Descent Into Cannibalism: [25:38–27:07]
• Discussion of Etiquette, Humor about Cannibalism: [35:17–36:53], [42:10–42:13]
• Rescue & Aftermath (modern parallels): [32:56–41:15]

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Tone & Style

Ed Helms and Jon Lovett’s banter remains quick, dry, and sharp throughout, blending irreverent humor (“I struggle at a best Western, so I can't imagine if I'm at the actual least western”) with moments of poignant insight about hope, cynicism, and perseverance. Dark as it gets, both hosts navigate the grim reality with comic relief—making the historical horrors both accessible and revealing about human psychology.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The Donner Party remains a cautionary tale about the perils of ignoring hard-won guidance, falling for shortcuts, and the ways adversity reveals both the worst and best in people.
• The story is tied to present-day themes—how hope, action, and resilience (as well as skepticism of easy answers) are just as necessary now as they were then.
• Despite its macabre details, Lovett and Helms use the Donner disaster to reflect on our collective need for agency, the traps of cynicism, and the power of humor as a survival tool.

Ed Helms’ ultimate lesson:
"The Donner Party. Kind of a grim reminder of how far people will go when they're sold a dream, ignore the warning signs and follow bad advice deep into the wilderness." [40:49]

Jon Lovett’s upshot:
"We shouldn't really stay put, that we gotta keep moving and nobody's coming, that we have to save ourselves." [41:15]

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For more, subscribe to Pod Save America, Love It or Leave It, or visit the SNAFU Podcast YouTube channel.

Transcript

[Ed Helms]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[John Lovett]

Guaranteed Human.

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[John Lovett]

I don't know that I'm made for ox work.

[Ed Helms]

I couldn't even be like a paralegal in the old West.

[John Lovett]

I struggle at a best Western, so I can't imagine if I'm at the actual least western. You know what I mean? The actual West.

[Ed Helms]

So yeah, even a best Western is too Western for you. Today I am joined by former Obama speechwriter, current Pod Save America co host, and a guy I consider to be a whip smart, world class communicator. With a startling command of the issues and devastating comedic timing, he's also somehow turned crippling anxiety about the future of America into a wildly successful media empire. Please welcome the one and only John Lovett.

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Hi.

[John Lovett]

What an intro. Thank you.

[Ed Helms]

Hey. Yeah, that's. That's what we do here. We, we honor our guests, we elevate them. And I've been on your shows over the years many times. I'm so glad to have you on here. So in your job at Crooked Media, you basically spend a lot of time analyzing the daily horrors of American politics, particularly Trump World. And yet somehow you stay quick and clever and weirdly, hopefully. What's your secret? Like, what's the. Like, are you. Is it just therapy or are you on black market ketamine? Like, how do you not collapse into despair all the time?

[John Lovett]

I want you to know something. If I ever am on ketamine. It will be from a prestigious Los Angeles based, pill pushing, fancy doctor. I'm not gonna do black market drugs.

[Ed Helms]

Forgive me?

[John Lovett]

Yes. That's not why I moved to this city.

[Ed Helms]

And I should know better.

[John Lovett]

But so it's interesting. The truth is, for me, I think hope's important. I think it's important that people feel it because I think without it, they may not be as involved or invested. It has real genuine value. But it's never been my motivator, to be honest. I've always been motivated by anger. I really have anger. Not just anger at Republicans who I disagree with, but anger. Angry at the fact that these problems are solvable. Right. Like, just I, I, like, I'm. I'm the kind of person where I was at a buffet line over the weekend, in fact, what a life I lead. And I'm at this buffet line and there was basically. It was a nachos buffet line. Okay. And here's how it was organized. It went. Plates, chips, cheese, another bowl of chips, another, another bowl of cheese. There's a long fucking line behind me. And in front of me, I see this and nobody's doing anything. And so I walk to the front of the line, I take half the stack of plates and I put it next to the other bowl of cheese and chips so that a whole group of people aren't walking by and. Cause that's where the log jam was.

[Ed Helms]

Two log jam.

[John Lovett]

That's where the holdup was. Okay, look, I see that I'm becoming the old Jewish relatives I knew from my childhood.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, you're Larry David all of a sudden.

[John Lovett]

But in ways large and small, that is my nature. I can't stand those things. And so maybe I was just always motivated by the kinds of, like, I don't need to love or be inspired every day to be motivated to participate or make jokes or do whatever we need to do. So maybe that's my good fortune. I do think, like, in a serious way, there's a whole, whole media apparatus that wants people to feel cynical and negative and to view, view all politics as corrupt and all politicians as useless. And if you give into that, the people that want you to feel that way win. They really do. And as bad as things have gotten, as bad as they could continue to get, there are always places where we have agency. And if you're giving up, it's not because you can't make a difference or you can't be involved or you can't have an impact. It's because either you don't know the way to find it or you've decided it's too hard and maybe that's okay. That's something people can decide. But I think there's a way in which people try to tell themselves things are worse than they seem or are irredeemable because it makes it easier. And the truth is, hope makes demands of us. It does. And it requires you to do things.

[Ed Helms]

Well said. Thank you for reflecting on that with me. I actually. I kind of only want to talk about this stuff with you. I just like how you communicate about these things. Just a quick question. You were on the show Survivor.

[John Lovett]

That's right.

[Ed Helms]

Did you guys at any point on that show ever consider eating one another, just like casually as a backup plan?

[John Lovett]

The truth is I was only surviving for three nights, which meant I only really missed three dinners. And eating a fellow person doesn't come up after three dinners.

[Ed Helms]

You're already taking this question too seriously.

[John Lovett]

So it never comes to that. The other thing too is, are coconuts strewn about?

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[John Lovett]

Right. You know, the exact number of coconuts one might need to survive happen to be randomly distributed by, I think, God.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Well, today's snafu does involve actual cannibalism.

[John Lovett]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

It's one of the most famous disasters in American history. We're talking about the Donner Party.

[John Lovett]

Hell yeah.

[Ed Helms]

The year is 1846, a time when. When Americans were charging westward under the banner of manifest destiny, which was basically the 19th century version of I want it and God said I could have it. So gimme was kind of a conveniently divine permission slip for land grabs, broken treaties, and some really creative definitions of morality. But we'll come back to all that. So, like today, 1846 is a time of deep uncertainty. Most of the people heading west, they're not thrill seekers, they're not adventurer, they're just families chasing stability and hoping for a fresh start. John, have you ever had the fantasy of just like leaving it all behind and walking away from everything for a fresh start? Like, just off somewhere new?

[John Lovett]

I'll tell you, it's pretty embarrassing, but my friend Sam and I, when we were graduating college, we decided we really wanted to, like, we're gonna. We wanna, like, go west. All right. We really did talk about this. And our in unimaginative brains, we were like, we're going to go to Alaska. We're going to move to Alaska. But we were going to become paralegals there. And I don't really understand why that would like 20, 21. And we thought, oh, we'll go become paralegals because we know we could get that job. And I just. There was something so embarrassing about imagining going all the way to Alaska as an experiment, but being only able to conceive of an office job once we got there. We could have gone fishing. We could have done a lot of different things, but that was what we imagined. That there's a Jewish pragmatism in the heart of even that adventure.

[Ed Helms]

But there's also, like, this Ken Kesey kind of like, adventure spirit to Alaska that we all crave. Kudos to you for that.

[John Lovett]

Thank you.

[Ed Helms]

So it's 1846. The Oregon Trail was a well worn path at this point. There were maps, guidebooks, and a pretty clear playbook for how to make it successfully. As long as you leave on time, follow the route, and don't try to get too fancy. Which makes what happened next all the more unbelievable because one group looked at that solid, proven plan, and they were just like, hold my beer, because we got better ideas. We're going to do this our own way. What's your Donner party knowledge?

[John Lovett]

I have never done a full deep dive. There's some tiny part of my brain that. That remembers that at some point they get hoodwinked in some way.

[Ed Helms]

We'll get there, but you're right. Let's meet the partiers, shall we? First up, brothers George and Jacob Donner, who brought their entire families. Kids, wives, kids from other wives. Basically just a massive frontier Brady bunch. They also hired a crew of teamsters, not the Jimmy Hoffa kind. Back then, a teamster was someone who drove a team of oxen. Today, of course, it means a union truck driver. So basically a similar vibe as today, just more hay and less honking. So do you think you'd make a good teamster back in the day, or would you just tap out at the first blister?

[John Lovett]

Oh, yeah. I don't know that I made for ox work.

[Ed Helms]

I couldn't even be, like a paralegal in the Old West. To your earlier point.

[John Lovett]

I struggle at a best Western. Right.

[Ed Helms]

No matter if it's. If it's in the west or even if it's in the East.

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[John Lovett]

Along. Along a highway upstate New York. I'm at a best Western. I'm. I'm complaining. You're like, so I can't imagine if I'm at the actual least Western. You know what I mean? The actual West.

[Ed Helms]

The actual. The worst Western, which is the real Old West. Okay. So, yeah, even a best Western is too Western for you, right?

[John Lovett]

Right. All right.

[Ed Helms]

All right. Well, also joining the crew, James F. Reed, an Irish immigrant from Springfield, Illinois, whose business had just gone belly up. So he's looking for a fre. He brought along his wife Margaret, their kids, and Grandma Keys, who is in her 70s. That's. That's gotta be a tough old broad, right?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, just. I'm surprised the Donners would have allowed Irish people. I think that's probably where they. That was where they went wrong, maybe.

[Ed Helms]

So at the start here, we're Talking about roughly 31 people in the group. Now, I'm gonna throw out numbers this whole time, but historians kind of dispute the exact numbers. So these are rough numbers. About 31 people in the group. And according to Young Virginia, the Reeds had the nicest ride, what she called a two story pioneer palace car pulled by four oxen. Meanwhile, the Donners were apparently slumming it with just three oxen wagons. So even on the Oregon Trail, teenage girls are. They're gonna judge your ride.

[John Lovett]

They were double deckers.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, I know. Quick little sidebar. John Lovett. Any disastrous road trips in your life? Because this is about to go off the rails.

[John Lovett]

I'll tell you. I was a presidential speechwriter, and it was my job to be on the road with the President on a rural tour. He was doing a swing of rural areas, talking about rural issues, and something went wrong with my physical plant, with my corpus, my habeas.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, this is very cryptic, but it sounds like you're sick.

[John Lovett]

You're getting ill. You've never been going to the bathroom while a plane landed. That's not something you've ever done.

[Ed Helms]

No one has to leave. You're not allowed to.

[John Lovett]

And literally, I am having. I'll just. I'm shitting my brains out on Air Force One while it is physically landing. And I know that I have like 30 seconds after this plane stops to get to the van because the motorcade leaves when the president gets off the plane. And I spent that whole day wondering, am I gonna have to fake some sort of a medical episode to get this van to pull over? Because I was in trouble that whole day. That whole day. I am sick to my stomach.

[Ed Helms]

Where is this? What city are you at at this point?

[John Lovett]

Where is this mouth and butt? That's where it is. Geographically, I think we had flown maybe into Des Moines, and we were doing a swing through Iowa.

[Ed Helms]

Okay.

[John Lovett]

And it was an unbelievable nightmare. It was my secret nightmare. But I made it. I made it all the way through. Nobody was the wiser. I mean, just like it was unbelievable. It was a high, high low low day.

[Ed Helms]

I do love that story.

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[Ed Helms]

Okay, we're jumping back in. The Donner Party officially departed Independence, Missouri and headed to the Oregon Trail on May 12, 1846, having now ballooned to roughly 87 members. But it didn't take long for shit to hit the proverbial fan, because May 12th is way late in the season. The best time to leave on a westward trek was early to mid April. This was pretty much common knowledge, so shame on the Donner party. Right. Travelers relied on seasonal grass and flowers to feed their cattle and also needed to avoid the rainy spring, which created crazy amounts of mud. Are you a big planner when you travel? Do you. Do you. Are you in the guidebooks, or are you just kind of winging it? Like, what's your style?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I'm a planner. I'm a planner. The Internet made travel worse because it used to be you went to a city to explore it, and now if you arrive unprepared, you feel as though you didn't explore it.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

You know what I'm saying? And so. But I like to know before I go.

[Ed Helms]

I agree. And also, cell phones have made travel really annoying because I found myself walking around Florence, like, just staring at my map, like, where. Where am I going? And, like, scrolling, trying to just, like, orient myself as opposed to, like, you know, 20 years ago, you'd just be looking for landmarks and finding your way around and just so much more in the space.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. And it's like, you. The risk of that is, oh, you didn't eat the right gelato. But the reward of that. The reward of that is maybe a discovery or an experience that you otherwise wouldn't have had. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Hot take, John Lovett. I think the Internet might be bad.

[John Lovett]

I know. I know. It's.

[Ed Helms]

It's.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ed Helms]

Well, needless to say, there was no Internet back in the day. So despite the late start, the Donner group was in high spirits. Initially, the party made fine progress, traveling from Missouri to wyoming in about six weeks. For all you coastal elites, that's over 650 miles, which is pretty impressive in wagons. Okay, now we're getting to the part that you. You. You sort of knew a little bit about or had an inkling of. In early July, the Donner party arrived in Fort Laramie, Wyoming. While the party rested, they crossed paths with a man named Landsford Hastings, a Westward Expansion super van with a name that sounds kind of super villainy. Hastings had big dreams of flooding California with settlers to spark a bloodless revolution against the Mexican government. Casual. He'd also written a guidebook promoting a shortcut through the Wasatch Mountains and the Great Salt Lake Desert, claiming it would shave 300 miles off the trip. Small catch. He had never actually taken this shortcut. And in reality, it added 125 brutal miles. But still in Laramie, the Donners took this terrible advice and turned onto the now infamous Hastings Cut off. What's the worst advice you ever got from a stranger? John Lovett. Was it the person who gave you that pad thai on Air Force One or.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, it was. The night before someone said you got to try the seafood special, the oysters right out of the ocean. Right out of the Hudson.

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[Ed Helms]

Oh, right. Oh God. Hudson oysters. That would be it. All right. This so called shortcut cost the Donner party two grueling weeks just to get through the Wasatch Mountains. But at least the desert was next. And Hastings had assured them it would only take two days, so they packed accordingly. But in reality it took six days, after which the families were exhausted, dehydrated and severely undernourished. You ever been screwed by a shortcut?

[John Lovett]

Yeah. Yes. Cliff Notes got me. Because the Cliff Notes would get me often. In high school they got me pretty bad because the teachers caught wise. Look, I'm a sucker for a shortcut. I am, I am. You tell me that there's a better way, I'm going to try it. I really will. Are you like Hastings would have gotten me?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Honestly. Pretty compelling shave 300 miles off this epic journey.

[John Lovett]

The one valuable thing about the Internet is that if there was a Reddit forum in 18, whatever year this is, it would have said do not do. It would be under, you know, Oregon R, Oregon Trail. Hastings, do not follow. This is bad. Don't believe him. Yeah, there was a little bit more because you know nobody. How are you going to check? How are you gonna check there's nobody? You can't ask somebody in California when you're in Wyoming if they took the Hastings cutoff.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And if he's got a really nice mustache, you're gonna trust him.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. This is the era of the snake oil salesman. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Maybe the Internet's not all bad.

[John Lovett]

It's not all bad.

[Ed Helms]

I'm coming back around a little bit.

[John Lovett]

I take creatine. How about that? That's my snake oil. And I don't know why. Cuz a very husky, strong man on the Internet said it was good for your bones or something.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. It's still like knowing how much the Internet is trying to manipulate us. It's still amazing how much we allow ourselves to be manipulated or just sort of like don't catch it at first. We're very dumb creatures. We're very primal, John. That's right. It's just who we Are all right. So by late September, the Donner party had made it to the Sierra Nevada mountains just in time for that classic road trip phase where the simmering tensions are so high everyone's feeling one sarcastic comment away from a complete freak. Sure enough, October 5th, tempers flared along the Humboldt river when James Reed's oxen got tangled with another wagon. How dare they. Words were exchanged and then blows. John Snyder, the driver of the Graves family wagon, struck Reed in the head with the butt of his whip. That's pretty badass. Margaret Reed tried to intervene. She caught a blow from the, the butt of that whip. That's when James Reed snapped. He pulled a knife and fatally stabbed Snyder. So after the stabbing, some in the group wanted to hang James Reed. He claimed self defense. Tensions were high. One vocal member pushed for punishment of some kind. The group compromised. Reed was banished, sent into the wilderness alone with nothing but a horse. So, John, you've been voted off before.

[John Lovett]

That's true.

[Ed Helms]

What does it feel like? What do you think's going through James Reed's head?

[John Lovett]

Do you think they handed him a menu and let him choose whether he wanted a cheeseburger or pizza?

[Ed Helms]

No.

[John Lovett]

To make you feel better? Probably not. Probably not.

[Ed Helms]

Is that what you got on Survivor?

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[John Lovett]

You walk off.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, right, there's a little booby prize. Yeah.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Well, no, it's more like, like, it's more like, okay, you've been out there, you know, you're kind of like still in shock. And then they're very sweet because they know you're, you know, you're just sort of stunned by what's happened. And then at some point they hand you a menu and they're like, hey, you're out. But you get to eat whatever you want. So you get to eat like, you know, you can have a burger or a steak or a cheese or a pizza or wings or whatever. So that's a, that's a nice moment. You get to have that food again.

[Ed Helms]

Do you, when you're eating that meal, that's just like the most decadent junk food that's so delicious at that point. Or are you just like, I would imagine in your mind, you're like, I think I just won like all those. They're the suckers. They're still in there so much.

[John Lovett]

You're still swirling. And also you're not that hungry because you just haven't eaten for days. So you eat like a little bit of it and you're, you're already kind of starting to build the story of what happened that you're going to have to tell people, oh, that's what you're kind of working. You're already. You're working over. You're working over what happened in your head. Still fun, though.

[Ed Helms]

So Reed had to leave his wife, Margaret, and their kids behind. But his daughter Virginia, pulled off a stealthy act of love. With help from their Teamster, she snuck out at night and caught up with her dad, smuggling him his rifle, some ammo, and what little food she could, she could find. Meanwhile, the Donner Party pushed forward, low on food, high on stress. And by Halloween, they were just 100 miles from their destination, which is pretty. Pretty exciting. That's not like. Sounds like a lot, but, like, like, given how far they'd come, this is.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

Like a big deal. They're getting close.

[Ed Helms]

And Virginia kept spotting little notes her father left along the trail, as well as these little clusters of feathers from birds he had killed to eat. And he would leave these little symbols, kind of signs for his family to let them know he was alive and ahead of them on the trail and doing okay. But then, John, the snow hit, and it hit hard. And we're talking five feet right out of the gate, those little signs from Reed to his family stopped. The Donner Party ground to a halt themselves. Provisions were dwindling. Morale was basically toast. They were stuck.

[John Lovett]

They're so close.

[Ed Helms]

They're so close.

[John Lovett]

They're so close.

[Ed Helms]

And winter had just begun.

[John Lovett]

When is this. What is the date roughly when this is happening?

[Ed Helms]

A little bit after Halloween at this point.

[John Lovett]

Wow. So they also got unlucky because, you know, they started late. They started late. That was a big snow. That's a big snow to come.

[Ed Helms]

In November, the stranded families hunkered down around Truckee Lake, building makeshift cabins that would later become Donner Lake in. In today's for. For today's cartographers, building makeshift cabins and praying for a break in the weather. After eight straight days of relentless snow, they started to suspect they might be in over their heads, quite literally, because the snow's getting really deep. You get it? That's.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, that's the height of the snow. They're. They're in over their heads physically and sort of metaphorically. The metaphor being being in over your head. That's good with snow or water.

[Ed Helms]

That's good. That's good storytelling right there.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Ed Helms]

Desperate for help, a group of 10 men and five women strapped together homemade snowshoes and set out on foot. The rest of the party gave them a name. That sounds kind of like a badass heavy metal band. The Forlorn Hope. So the Forlorn Hope just sets off on their homemade snowshoes. And back at camp, things are really falling apart. Adults are getting delirious. Kids were starving, and the cold was sinking in deep. One by one, people started to die. Now, there are a lot of myths that swirl around the Donner Party, but desperate times do call for desperate measures. John. Real talk. Do you think they actually ate each other?

[John Lovett]

Yes, I do. I do. I mean, I don't. I don't. I. I mean, I guess it could just be lore.

[Ed Helms]

All right, well, you're right.

[John Lovett]

I don't know.

[Ed Helms]

They did.

[John Lovett]

Oh, they did do it.

[Ed Helms]

They did.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

Okay, they did.

[Ed Helms]

But it's also. It's been sort of like, I think, spun up into, you know, like, was it this violent cataclysm where they attacked each other and ate. Well, according to historian Michael Wallace, they did eat each other. And he even interviewed descendants who confirmed it. But it wasn't quite the smorgasbord. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't quite the sort of, like, violent, like, attacking each other in order to eat one another. It was more analogous to, like, the alive story of the. The. The soccer team.

[John Lovett]

They're eating the people who died of natural cause. Well, you know, died of exposure.

[Ed Helms]

Sure.

[John Lovett]

They're. They're eating those people became fair game.

[Ed Helms]

Sure. Shall we say one of my favorite Monty Python sketches of all time is, like, these. It's a. It's from one of their records, one of. One of their audio albums. And it's just. You hear the creaking of a lifeboat in the ocean, and they start debating who looks more delicious. And it's so perfectly done. He's like, well, he looks like he's got a gammy leg. I'd rather have Richard. And they just start debating.

[John Lovett]

I think. I think it's a nice thing to do, to say, hey, go for it.

[Ed Helms]

Just wait till I'm dead.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, don't kill me. Wait till I'm dead. And then I would just say, you know, wings and drumsticks first.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, sure.

[John Lovett]

I think that's fair.

[Ed Helms]

Honestly, that's a fair. I would honor that. If you and I were in this situation and you said that to me, I'd be like, fair. Totally fair.

[John Lovett]

As you turn into the Roadrunner and you picture me and your lips are watering, and then you look over and I become a turkey, you know, with a head. I'm like, what's Ed? What are you looking at me weird for.

[Ed Helms]

Because you look like a cartoon turkey with those Little Chef hats on your.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

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[Ed Helms]

On the bottom of your.

[John Lovett]

Exactly, exactly.

[Ed Helms]

So according to Wallace, this historian, what's really accurate is that as the crew died, their bodies were stored in snowbanks, becoming viable sources of nutrition. Who precisely among the various party members participated in this cannibalism is not clear. That has not been. That has not been all verified.

[John Lovett]

Because who's putting that in their diary? You know, you're gonna.

[Ed Helms]

Right.

[John Lovett]

There's no one's being like. And then they ate a person and they.

[Ed Helms]

I didn't.

[John Lovett]

But everybody else did. I get that. That's for, like, you know, there's that tradition. There's that, like, French tradition where there's a tiny, delicate bird they eat whole. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Ed Helms]

Yes.

[John Lovett]

It's called the ortolan. It's called the ortolan and it's considered such a garish thing to do that you don't want God to see. So before you eat the ortolan, you put a towel over your head and you eat it under the towel with your hands. Because it's considered under towels. Yeah. God can't see under the towels. It's sort of an apology for this depraved and decadent act. In the same way, I think people aren't writing in their journals that they just ate the reeds. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

I mean, you just can't. You can't hold someone in that situation to, like, normal standards.

[John Lovett]

No.

[Ed Helms]

Back on the other side of the mountains, across the California border, the Forlorn Hope rescue crew was still doing all right. Sure, eight of them had died along the way, but the rest had made it. And at this point, dozens still remain trapped at the lake camp.

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[Ed Helms]

Back in California, in a town called Yerba Buena, which is now known as San Francisco, a crazy man was running around town telling anyone who would listen about a party of travelers trapped in the mountains. That man was James Reed. He had survived after being banished and going ahead on the trail. He survived and he made it. And of course, he's now worried about his family and all of the other people. And he's telling everyone he can about it. And amazingly, the remainder of the forlorn hope Rescue group also arrived in town shortly, shortly after Reid. Together, they managed to organize a relief effort for those who were still trapped. And it worked. The first rescue crew traveled up over the mountains and arrived at the camps on February 19, 1847. They took 23 of the starving party members back with them in that first wave, including Margaret and Virginia back to California. James Reed was actually part of the crew's caboose, reuniting with Margaret, Virginia, and most, though not all, of his family. Because of the 40 people who remained at the camp. This included two of Reid's smaller children who weren't strong enough to make the journey easily. Margaret, of course, fought leaving her kids behind tooth and nail, but finally gave in for the greater good. That's a tough one.

[John Lovett]

I don't know.

[Ed Helms]

I don't know if I'd be leaving my two youngest behind in a group. How many in a group that's already eaten people? They're, like, starting to eat people.

[John Lovett]

Right, right, right. Yeah. You know, sometimes the smaller pieces do fall to the bottom of the bucket at kfc, but it's only a matter of time before you get down there.

[Ed Helms]

You're gonna get there. You don't throw that, like, any little fried crispy thing at the bottom. You come, you'll get there. Even if it's going in the fridge for a day or two, you're gonna get there.

[John Lovett]

You'll get there. You're gonna get there.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. There were three more waves of rescue attempts, but the snow made it, like, truly impossible. They could only travel through the pass over the mountains with so many supplies and or people in tow, having to carry many of the children or adults who were too weak. More people perished during each round of waiting, including George and Jacob Donner. George, unfortunately, had injured his hand during the snow, in which became gangrenous and ultimately killed him. It is said that Jacob died of starvation and was cannibalized.

[John Lovett]

Here's a question I have for you. Okay, okay. You're in this circumstance. All right, the plane has crashed. You're in the donner. Let's see. Whatever. You're in a cannibalistic situation. You have spices, okay?

[Ed Helms]

Okay.

[John Lovett]

You have salt and pepper and garlic powder and onion powder. You have paprika. Okay, you are going to eat someone.

[Ed Helms]

Italian seasoning.

[John Lovett]

Is it more respectful to eat this human flesh unseasoned so that the aesthetic experience matches the kind of moral experience which is one of desperation? Or is it more respectful to the deceased to flavor it, cook it well, make it as Tasty as possible so that you get the best experience from this food.

[Ed Helms]

So from the comfort of our respective recording studios, I'm gonna say two things. One is I'm spicing the hell out of it because it probably is so hard going down.

[John Lovett]

Right. It's gamey, too.

[Ed Helms]

It's like I don't even. I don't know what human tastes like, but I don't want to know.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

And even if.

[Ed Helms]

Even if it's delicious, I don't want it to taste like what it is. Right. I don't want to just be thinking about that. So I'm spicing the ever loving hell out of it. But number two, I also am pretty sure that these debates did not happen on the day that they got anything to make it go down easier. That's what they're.

[John Lovett]

You're using it. Of course you're using it.

[Ed Helms]

All right. There was a fourth and final rescue mission. And when they arrived, they found only one last survivor, reportedly found hovering over a cauldron of, quote, cooked flesh and discarded bones.

[John Lovett]

Sure.

[Ed Helms]

So you're to your point. Maybe there's. There's probably some broth happening in general.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. It's just you. If it's just you, you know.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

You're just there by yourself.

[Ed Helms]

You throw a little. You're not.

[John Lovett]

You're not a little bit of. Yeah. It's like you're doing a kind of.

[Ed Helms]

Cannibal version of, like, Mamba number five.

[John Lovett]

You know, like a little bit of. A little bit of Andrew, a little bit of Jessica.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, boy.

[John Lovett]

You know, you're mixing. You know what I mean? You're sort of make. You're just. You're. You're kind of you. I do think, like, you've crossed some kind of moral plane.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

And now you're alone in the woods. Like, what if when they showed up these weeks later, this person had ballooned by like a hundred pounds? Oh, wow. I'm gonna do a little swan to go. Does anybody want me to put any of this in to go? I'm gonna make a. You know, like, I'm gonna make it nice. This heats up. Here's the thing about human flesh. It reheats. Well, that's the thing about it, right? Or, you know, some food doesn't travel.

[Ed Helms]

It makes a good jerky. Yeah, yeah. Dry it out. Oh, boy.

[John Lovett]

Dry it out.

[Ed Helms]

Bring some back to San Francisco. This is making me sick, this whole thing, really.

[John Lovett]

Is it making me hungry?

[Ed Helms]

What's fucked up about this is so upsetting.

[John Lovett]

Did this before lunch?

[Ed Helms]

Well, according To Virginia Reed. Out of the 83 people who were snowed in at Donner Lake, only 41 survived. And of the 31 family members and teamsters of the original Donner party family From Springfield, only 18 lived to reach California. Historians dispute these exact numbers, but that's the neighborhood. So the story of the Donner party soon gained notoriety, but it weirdly didn't really deter people from the Oregon trail. The younger daughter, Patty Reed, even wrote a letter to her cousin in Illinois stating, don't let this letter dishearten anybody. Never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as you can. Which, I mean, understatement of the century. Or, like, still do what we did. Just don't take no cutoffs.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, you know, no such thing as a free lunch.

[Ed Helms]

The survivors of the Donner party got up to various things after their rescue and settled into California. Do you think anyone, like, found success in California?

[John Lovett]

I'm gonna say yes. I just. I'm sure somebody must have made something of themselves.

[Ed Helms]

A guy named John Breen got rich in the California gold rush of 1849, taking home over $12,000 in gold, which is almost $500,000 in today's money. So maybe karma's legit.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

I don't know. Also, how old do you think the.

[Ed Helms]

Oldest survivor lived to.

[John Lovett]

Oh, well, I mean, I think once you get through that, 90.

[Ed Helms]

89.

[John Lovett]

Wow.

[Ed Helms]

Good guess, John. Really good guess.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. John Breen's youngest sister, Isabella, who was one year old at the start of the journey, was the last living survivor of the Donner party when she died in 1930 at the age of 89. Whatever happened to Lansford Hastings, our scammy snake oil salesman, who convinced them to take the shortcut?

[John Lovett]

Oh, I assume he goes on to some other kind of scam. He's the kind of guy that dies in a bar fight or gets killed because he's stealing somebody's goat.

[Ed Helms]

Yes. Close. All right. In fact, he later died while leading a group of confederates trying to colonize Brazil.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, terrific.

[Ed Helms]

Yes. Lancer, the guy thought big.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

He was a confederate during the civil War, and he actually opted to emigrate to Brazil, pulling many disgruntled southerners along with him. And that's where he died.

[John Lovett]

Well, you know, too bad for him.

[Ed Helms]

You know what? I don't have a lot of sympathy for him.

[John Lovett]

No.

[Ed Helms]

The Donner Party. Kind of a grim reminder of how far people will go when they're sold a dream. Ignore the warning signs and follow bad advice deep into the wilderness. Which kind of feels like America right now in a nutshell. A little bit desperate people promised easy shortcuts, left starving in the cold while.

[Venmo Ad Voice]

The guy who gave them the map.

[Ed Helms]

Is nowhere to be found. Thoughts? Reflections, Takeaways from the Donner party.

[John Lovett]

I would say, based on that analogy, it's also a reminder that we shouldn't really stay put, that we gotta keep moving and nobody's coming, that we have to save ourselves.

[Ed Helms]

I would say soldier on.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Also eat each other.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. And I just think, don't start. Start in the flank. Start with the big muscles. All right? Start. Start where you'd start at a restaurant. You don't have to get. Don't get creative. Don't get. Don't get cold. Don't get adventurous.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Picture that little placemat you get at the restaurant at the steak place when you were. That has, like, the cow on it.

[Ed Helms]

Cuts of the cows.

[John Lovett]

Every. Look at that group of meats. Every single one of those basically has an equivalent on the human body.

[Ed Helms]

There you go.

[John Lovett]

Right?

[Ed Helms]

So take with you. Take with you. A Peter Luger's placemat is the. Is the lesson.

[John Lovett]

By the way, don't sleep on the cheeks.

[Venmo Ad Voice 2]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

All right. I haven't been going to Pilates all this time to have you not eat my ass. What?

[Ed Helms]

Okay, Jon Lovett, this has been an utter delight. I'm so grateful to have you on the show. Is there anything you can tell us about where we'll see you in the coming days, months? What else is going on for you?

[John Lovett]

Everybody? Do me a favor, subscribe to Pod, Save America. Love it or leave it. Otherwise, you know, I'll see you on the Internet, posting and posting.

[Ed Helms]

Keep up the great work. Thanks so much for being on, John.

[John Lovett]

Thanks, Ed. So good to see you. This was fun.

[Ed Helms]

Always. Cheers. Snafu is a production of I Heart Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbow, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by the Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welch, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Itor, Nathan Otoski and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book the Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com thanks for listening and see you next week.

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[Ed Helms]

I'm Ed Helms.

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