S4E14: Sarah Spain and Napoleon's Russian Blunder

Summary

SNAFU with Ed Helms

Episode: S4E14: Sarah Spain and Napoleon’s Russian Blunder
Date: January 7, 2026
Host: Ed Helms
Guest: Sarah Spain

Overview

In this episode, Ed Helms—joined by journalist, podcaster, and sports fanatic Sarah Spain—dives into one of history’s iconic fiascos: Napoleon’s disastrous 1812 invasion of Russia. The show, known for mixing sharp history insights with humor and relatable banter, uses the catastrophe as a lens to explore themes of leadership, ego, group decision-making, and the difference between confidence and delusion. Sarah Spain brings in rich analogies from sports and modern life, making this one of SNAFU’s most engaging “history hangouts.”

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Highlights and Key Discussion Points

Introducing Sarah Spain & Personal Snafus

• [01:52] Ed Helms introduces Sarah Spain as an award-winning journalist and sports podcast host, sharing his admiration for her.
• [03:16] Sarah shares a hilarious “snafu” from her own life involving getting lost, a flat tire, a polar vortex, losing a credit card in a party store, and her dog vomiting on a brand new carpet.
  • Quote: “It was one of those things where he had a different kind of accident and then ate it to clean it up and then put both into the carpet, if that makes any sense...” (06:17 – Sarah Spain)
  • The story closes with her husband buying her the football platter she’d resisted, trying to turn her day around.

Setting the Scene: France in Turmoil

• [08:02] The hosts recap the chaos and violence of the French Revolution’s Reign of Terror.
  • Sarah quips about whether she’d survive as a strong woman during those times:
    Quote: “Either I would die almost immediately... or because I'm very tall and athletic, I would be one of those women who cosplayed as a man...to dominate some sort of army.” (09:08)
  • Ed draws parallels to Joan of Arc and the French appreciation for powerful women.

France’s “Directory” and Napoleon’s Rise

• [10:03] The Directory (France’s post-revolution leadership) is compared to modern-day secret clubs and “horrific databases.”

  • Sarah: “Or potentially like a Soho House... where you both learn your advanced biometrics and what age you'll die and also get to smoke cigars in a room that no one else is allowed in.” (10:34)

• [11:50] Napoleon’s meteoric rise—from Corsican outsider to emperor—is recounted, with discussion of his ego and penchant for the dramatic.

  • Jokes abound about Napoleon’s stature and fashion.

Egos, Delusion, and Downfalls

• [14:30] Ed narrates how Napoleon’s successes inflate his ego, leading to increasingly risky decisions.
  • Sports Analogy: Sarah draws a parallel to athletes, especially Michael Jordan, explaining:
    Quote: “True confidence actually usually manifests in someone who is much more laid back and wants to uplift others...Narcissistic insecurity...results in a dictatorial leader...” (15:13 – Sarah Spain)
    • The best leaders, she argues, empower rather than dominate.

The Invasion of Russia

• [20:07] Ed describes Napoleon’s alliance-breaking, ego-driven decision to invade Russia with the largest army Europe had ever seen—650,000 troops.
  • Sarah: “And all the bakers that made the baguettes for the troops every morning that were forced into battle with baguettes as swords when things went a stale.” (21:04)

The Russian Strategy: Scorched Earth

• [22:44] The hosts marvel at Russia’s scorched earth tactics, forcing Napoleon’s men ever deeper into hostile, empty territory.

  • Ed: “The Russian army was employing what is known as a scorched earth strategy, meaning they would burn down their own towns... basically saying, if we can't have it, neither can you.” (24:55)

  • Sarah is impressed:
    Quote: “I'm impressed by the Russians, which feels like a strange thing to say right now, but truly good plan, well executed. Five out of five stars, Russia.” (37:27)

  • Strategy vs. Strength:
    Sarah: “I am way more into strategy than brute strength. I believe...everywhere else where strategery is involved...it's more about the brain.” (25:30)

The Battle of Borodino & Moscow’s Burning

• [27:40] They recount the Battle of Borodino—a bloody stalemate with massive casualties—and Napoleon’s brief “victory” in Moscow.

• The city, however, has been burned to the ground, leaving the French stuck with no supplies and facing the punishing Russian winter.

  • Sarah: “This is like when you play the Packers in December... you know that you've got an extra man on your side and it's the hail and sleet.” (30:17)

• The Russian Ghosting: Napoleon requests a Russian surrender and is simply ignored for five freezing weeks.

  • Ed: “He sends Tsar Alexander a letter politely requesting his surrender... And the Russians were just like, shh, don't pay him any attention. He'll leave.” (31:20)

Napoleon’s Retreat and Aftermath

• [32:06] With his army starving and rumors of a coup back in France, Napoleon is forced to retreat. Only about 100,000 of his original 600,000+ troops survive.

  • Sarah draws a parallel to NFL player Vontae Davis, who retired mid-game: “At halftime, he was like, yep, think that's about it for me.” (33:41)

• Napoleon abandons his troops to rush home and douse political fires.

• [34:38] The defeat shatters Napoleon’s aura of invincibility, setting dominoes falling across Europe—leading to his first exile, brief return (the Hundred Days), Waterloo, and final exile to St. Helena.

  • Sarah (joking obituary): “Spoiler alert. Napoleon's dead.” (35:18)

Themes and Lessons: Ego, Leadership, Co-direction

• [38:13] Ed and Sarah discuss the enduring perils of unchecked ego and the wisdom of listening to advisors—or even sharing power.

  • Sarah: “The directory...the idea of co leading is something that should be getting a lot more attention... because it prevents that one egotistical, dictatorial person who will not stop themselves from being checked...” (38:13)

• Ed’s music reference: “I feel like Kenny Rogers said it best. Right? You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run...” (37:38)

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Notable Quotes & Banter

• “How do you say penis measuring contest in French?” – Sarah Spain, [11:24]
• “If we learned one thing from history, it’s that we don’t remember history.” – Ed Helms, [22:07]
• “In victory, you deserve it. In loss, you need it.” – Sarah Spain, referencing a Napoleon champagne quote, [27:03]
• “You could put almost anything in an alley in Chicago, and someone will give it a go.” – Sarah Spain, [07:05]
• “Leaders don’t create followers, followers make leaders.” – Sarah Spain, [16:21]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:16] — Sarah's cascading “snafu” personal story
• [08:02] — Reign of Terror overview and banter
• [11:50] — Napoleon’s rise; ego and confidence
• [15:13] — Sports analogies on leadership and ego
• [20:32] — Napoleon invades Russia, scale of the blunder
• [22:44] — Russia's scorched earth strategy explained
• [27:40] — Battle of Borodino and Moscow’s devastation
• [31:20] — Russian “ghosting” and Napoleon’s defeat
• [32:06] — Retreat, army losses, Napoleon rushes home
• [35:18] — Aftermath, exiles, and death of Napoleon
• [38:13] — Lessons on ego, co-leadership, and power

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Closing: Sarah Spain’s Projects

• [39:34] — Sarah talks about her daily women’s sports podcast “Good Game,” emphasizing the need for daily cadence in women’s sports coverage.
• [40:23] — Sarah promotes her new book “Runs In: An Incredible True Story of Football, Fatherhood and Belonging,” exploring identity, adoption, and found family in sports.

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Takeaways

• Ego and stubbornness led Napoleon to one of history’s greatest blunders, proving the peril of leadership unchecked by humility or reality.
• Sound strategy beats brute force, as exemplified by Russia’s relentless retreat and scorched earth tactics.
• Co-leadership and listening may prevent such catastrophic errors, both in history and today’s business and political climates.
• History repeats itself—as much in failed group projects as in international disasters.

Ed’s Final Word: “Unfortunately, this is a vibe we still see a lot of today. Leaders doubling down instead of backing off, mistaking stubbornness for strength...” (38:13)

Sarah: “Bring everyone together, utilize the strengths of all the different people, elevate the people beneath you, empower them to make great decisions...” (39:22)

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A must-listen for history buffs, sports fans, and anyone fascinated by the intersection of leadership, ego, and epic disasters—with plenty of laughs along the way.

Transcript

[Sarah Spain]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Ed Helms]

Hi, Kyle.

[Sarah Spain]

Could you draw up a quick document.

[Ed Helms]

With a basic business plan?

[Sarah Spain]

Just one page as a Google Doc.

[Ed Helms]

And send me the link.

[Sarah Spain]

Thanks.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast shell game on iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Spain]

Babes, what are you doing? What?

[Ed Helms]

I'm just mowing the lawn. No, it's blazing hot and dry out here.

[Sarah Spain]

Don't you remember?

[Ed Helms]

Smokey Bear says avoid using power equipment when it's windy or dry. Where'd you learn this? Oh, it's on smokeybear.com with many other wildfire prevention tips.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

Thanks, honey bear. Cause remember, only you can prevent wildfires. Brought to you by the USDA Forest Service, your state forester and the Ad Council.

[Sarah Spain]

WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're the only credit union to be on the Forbes Best in state list five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Stop by, say hi, we're wsecu. Let's credit union. Hold on, Ed. What you're trying to tell me is they made a bunch of men share responsibility for power and it didn't work out. They couldn't all just get along and you know, best idea wins.

[Ed Helms]

Believe it or not. I mean, this is like the one time a bunch of dudes like, didn't get it right.

[Sarah Spain]

How do you say penis measuring contest in French?

[Ed Helms]

Do you know the contest? Measure. Welcome to Snafu, the show about history's greatest screw ups. I'm Ed Helms and today I am joined by the Emmy and Peabody award winning journalist, host of the iHeart podcast, Good Game all around sports fanatic. And also she's someone who I recently met and just happen to adore. It is the one and only Sarah Spain.

[Sarah Spain]

Thanks so much for having me and saying that. That's so nice.

[Ed Helms]

Well, right on. Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

We hit it off.

[Ed Helms]

We did, yeah. We were both in Austin at South by Southwest for some I Heart podcast fun. And, yeah, it was just fun to connect. Did you have a good time down there?

[Sarah Spain]

I did. That was actually my first time at south by Southwest. And I know that the I heart treatment is not what everyone gets. Cause we were in that beautiful hotel and never really had to leave. I just got to roll out of bed, walk out into this beautiful yard, and go parties for awesome people and their podcasts. I know sometimes people have to actually go to, I think, conference rooms and meeting areas and things like that. Like, actually, we just got to hang out with cool people like you. And so I loved it at the.

[Ed Helms]

Hotel St. Cecilia, which is, oh, what a gorgeous spot. So, Sarah, I ask this of all my guests on snafu. What is a snafu from your life? A personal snafu of some sort of.

[Sarah Spain]

I will try to tell this story tight because it has many twists and turns, but I think the payoff is worth it. So let's just say I have terrible sets of direction. And I am also a multitasker, which puts me in the position where I'm leaving a physical therapy appointment that is only about 15 minutes away from my home. I am trying to be on a conference call while driving. While plugging into my gps, the closest Mariano's grocery store here in Chicago. I see one that pops up and it says Ashland. I'm like, yep, that's the one near me. I hit go. I'm still taking the conference call. I start driving. I realize I've selected one that is not the one that's near me. But since I'm driving, I don't really have hands to plug it in again. I'm like, whatever. I'll just go to this one. It can't be that far. It's pretty far. The problem is that on the way there, I acquire a flat tire. So I don't know this yet, but I go into the grocery store, I buy all my groceries. I put my credit card in the pocket of my giant puffer coat, and not where I normally put it because my hands were full. And I'm still on the conference call.

[Ed Helms]

That's a black hole. A puffer coat pocket. Forget it.

[Sarah Spain]

And it was polar vortex. This was a couple years ago in Chicago, where we had multiple names for how cold it was in Chicago. Snopra, Snowmageddon, Polar vortex, et cetera. So I go outside, discover the flat tire, don't have AAA anymore, call my husband of Course, he's who I call whenever I screw things up. He plugs in, he's like, oh my God, why are you like 30 block south or whatever it is? And I'm like, don't ask, just come help me.

[Ed Helms]

This is snowballing, if you will.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes, well done. So in the meantime, I've tried to go across the way to an autozone or something who can't help me, which feels strange. It feels like the place that you would go if you have an auto problem. But no, right next to there is a party city. So I'm like, I'll just pop into party city really quick and walk around. While I'm waiting for my husband to come fix the tire, I see a bunch of stuff. I don't buy anything. I use the bathroom, I come out, he fixes the tire, and on the way home, I say, you'd be very proud of me. I did not buy the football shaped platter for the upcoming super bowl because I know we have too much stuff. And he's like, I am proud of you. You're always buying garbage we don't need. Fast forward. We get near home, I walk down the street to get us a sandwich and realize I don't have my credit card, but I still have to go do my live radio show. So while I am going home to get ready, my husband is graciously driving back to the party city on the new tire. We got to get my credit card. I go home, I start to prep for my show, my dog comes out of a side room looking real weird, and then he proceeds to vomit all over the brand new carpet I just installed the day before. And it was one of those things where he had a different kind of accident and then ate it to clean it up and then put both into the carpet, if that makes any sense without being too graphic. So instead of cleaning it.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, this is barf.

[Sarah Spain]

And yeah, vomit dookie in the same. Yep. So I just roll up the rug and put it in the alley. I don't care that I bought it the day before. I'm not cleaning it. This is the worst day ever. I literally just throw it in the alley.

[Ed Helms]

You did the right thing. You did the right thing.

[Sarah Spain]

I go upstairs to host my show and during a commercial break, I get a text from my husband. Got your card photo of him holding the credit card. And the second photo is him holding a football platter that he bought for me to make sure that my day improved.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, fabulous. That is not a snafu, that is a cascading. Sort of just blender of snafus all wrapped up into one.

[Sarah Spain]

You will not be surprised to learn that that rug was gone by the next day.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, good.

[Sarah Spain]

You could put almost anything in an alley in Chicago, and someone will give it a go.

[Ed Helms]

Somebody took it, put it in their house and was like, whoa. And then put it in their alley, and it's basically just bouncing around apartments in Chicago.

[Sarah Spain]

I do feel really bad for whoever was like, whoa, free rug.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Oh, my go. All right, well, let's get into today's snafu. This week's snafu takes us back to one of the most famous bad ideas in military history. It was bold, it was brutal, and spoiler alert, it did not go as planned. But before we get into snowstorms and supply chains and a very stubborn little general, we've got to rewind a bit. All the way back to 1789, when one country decided, enough of this damned monarchy and ancien regime. It is time for revolution, baby. Oh, France. Yes, yes. We're talking about the French Revolution.

[Sarah Spain]

La Guerre Francaise.

[Ed Helms]

I took, like, seven years of high school French or something like some crazy amount.

[Sarah Spain]

You were in high school for seven years? Wow. That explains a lot, frankly.

[Ed Helms]

No, I started in junior high. I started in junior high, then took. Took the French through high school, and then I think I did a year in college. All I got from it was this accent. That's all I could do.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, it's pretty good. Did you start with Voila, Monsieur Thibault? Because I think that's what everyone started with in junior high. French was the Thibault family.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, c' est le Guignol. Does anyone remember that? That means. Oh, great. The puppet show. The Guignol was like a famous one.

[Sarah Spain]

No one remembers that. It sounded German for some reason.

[Ed Helms]

That's not what you want when you're trying to speak French. It's 1790s in France, and it was a wild time. Guillotines, heads rolling all over the place. Sorry, not sorry. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. It was a time of mass bloodshed and became known as the Reign of terror. Over 20,000 people were executed for things like being anti revolutionary or religious or just a little too fancy. How do you think you do during the Reign of Terror?

[Sarah Spain]

Yes, I've thought about this many times. I think I was born in a good time, seeing as I am a very outspoken, spoken woman who does not follow any guidance based on the lanes in which I should inhabit or otherwise. So I think it would go one of Two ways. Either I would die almost immediately upon being old enough to speak for myself, and they would be like, nope, she's gonna be a problem. And I would be out. Or because I'm very tall and athletic, I would be one of those women who cosplayed as a man in order to both receive great goods and wealth and also dominate some sort of army or take some sort of leadership position where people didn't real that I was actually a lady.

[Ed Helms]

I like that version, but I don't think you would need to even pretend to be a man. Like, I feel like Joan of Arc was this was of this kind of ilk. And I feel like the French get powerful women.

[Sarah Spain]

Powerful women, yeah. Maybe I could just be one for the history books.

[Ed Helms]

Eventually, the chaos of late 1700s France hit a wall when Maximilien Robespierre, head revolutionary and chief vibe killer, was executed in 1794. The next year, France handed the keys to the kingdom to a five person governing body called the Directory. It honestly sounds less like a governing body and more like some horrific database in which Mark Zuckerberg has collected all of our thoughts so that he can finally control the world.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, or potentially like a Soho House type spot in New York that you have to pay a real big sum of money to join, where you both learn your advanced biometrics and what age you'll die and also get to smoke cigars in a room that no one else is allowed in.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, but also it's secretly a cult. Have you joined the Directory?

[Sarah Spain]

Are you part of the Directory?

[Ed Helms]

Are you on the Directory or.

[Sarah Spain]

It sounds like Handmaid's Tale.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, surprise, surprise. The Directory was a total mess. Corruption, instability, nonstop drums, and eventually.

[Sarah Spain]

Wait, hold on, Ed. What you're trying to tell me is they made a bunch of men share responsibility for power and it didn't work out. They couldn't all just get along and.

[Ed Helms]

You know, best idea wins, believe it or not. I mean, this is like the one time a bunch of dudes, like, didn't get it right.

[Sarah Spain]

How do you say penis measuring contest in French?

[Ed Helms]

Do you know the contest? Oh, yes, of course. Corruption, instability, nonstop drams. And eventually the French public started craving some real leadership again. And that's when a famous, short, strategic, and wildly ambitious military man entered the picture. Any guess who we're talking about?

[Sarah Spain]

Napoleon Bonaparte.

[Ed Helms]

Bonaparte? Napoleon. Why is it so fun to do that accent? I hope it's not too offensive. It's only inoffensive if it's a bad accent. I have a very good accent.

[Sarah Spain]

Right. We're also running out of accents we can make fun of without it being a problem. So I think we gotta hang on to making fun of the French.

[Ed Helms]

It's kind of sad that to a lot of Americans, French people are basically the chef in Little Mermaid.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Which is preposterous.

[Sarah Spain]

Like, can you still sing any of that song? And do you have the rights to sing it on this podcast? Sacrable. What is this? How on earth could I miss such a sweet.

[Ed Helms]

Such a sweet little succulent crab? The most amazing thing about that song is that they rhyme poisson with hon. He goes les poissons, les poissons he he, he, he, he.

[Sarah Spain]

That's the most French thing ever.

[Ed Helms]

That's a rhyme. That's part of the lyrics is honest.

[Sarah Spain]

I love will forever hang on to that. There's so many more useful things that should be lodged up in there. But I will forever remember all the lyrics to that.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. I have a couple of little kids, so it's like still hitting me in the face constantly. So we're talking about Napoleon Bonaparte. Born a commoner on the French island of Corsica, Napoleon rose through the military ranks. And after saving the Directory's asses from a royalist insurrection, he earned himself a cushy promotion to Major General. But this is France, right? So naturally there's another coup. And in 1799, Napoleon overthrew the Directory and put himself in charge. Introducing First Consul Napoleon Bonaparte.

[Sarah Spain]

Do you think it's a sign that France has really nailed the coups? Because we haven't found our own word, we just took theirs. Because coup is a French word.

[Ed Helms]

Right.

[Sarah Spain]

And we were like, wow, they did it so well. We don't need our own word for it.

[Ed Helms]

I think they just had so many of them that the word was used so constantly. It's like cleanup. Exactly. It's their brand. It's like the French brand to have government overthrow.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

So once Napoleon took charge, he basically Marie kondoed France, cleaned house, reorganized everything. You know, if it didn't spark joy, it was out of there. Brought some much needed structure to the post revolution chaos. He revamped education, tried to set up a meritocracy, and made the country feel like it was finally in grown up hands. And he was also out there crushing it on the battlefield. He was winning wars all over Europe. Of course, all this victory was going straight to his head. His ego was getting bigger than a French aristocrat's wig. Come on. Solid joke.

[Sarah Spain]

It's pretty good. Are you making fun of him at different turns when you said he rose, which would be tough for him because even when standing up it looked like he was sitting and in big hands, but probably quite small because he was known for being a Tony.

[Ed Helms]

Those were not deliberate jokes. Okay, well, believe it or not, yeah. So basically what's happening here is that he is just like running roughshod all over Europe. The Napoleonic wars are going on and he's just kicking ass and he's winning and he's like getting this bigger and bigger ego. And of course that in classic snafu form would wind up badly compromising his judgment. Where's the line between confidence and full blown delusion? Have you seen ego backfire like in the sports world?

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, for sure. True confidence actually usually manifests in someone who is much more laid back and wants to uplift others and put them in positions of power and empower them to be a part of decision making. Narcissistic insecurity is usually the kind of ego power trip that results in a dictatorial leader, a boss who's an a hole or. Or a player who is too diva like in their tendencies and doesn't know how to incorporate the rest of their teammates. I think famously Michael Jordan was one who. I don't know if it was ego so much as it was just an understanding of his own superheroic powers, but he had to be convinced to embrace an offense that would bring in his teammates understanding that he was still going to be the main target. But in order for him to get the ball and shoot it, they needed to make everybody else be a threat as well. And so that that flip from perhaps a little bit too egocentric to team player was really what opened up his greatness. So I think you can usually tell when somebody is a real leader. I think what's the. That's the phrase. Leaders don't create followers, followers make leaders.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, I like that. Hi Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link.

[Sarah Spain]

Thanks.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI.

[Sarah Spain]

Co founder after hearing a lot of.

[Ed Helms]

Stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI.

[Sarah Spain]

And now will happen.

[Ed Helms]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying.

[Sarah Spain]

To build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey Evan, good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on.

[Ed Helms]

Adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Spain]

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Ed Helms]

We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said there line in there about your mother.

[Sarah Spain]

And I said what?

[Ed Helms]

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Sarah Spain]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened. These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy.

[Ed Helms]

To have you with us.

[Sarah Spain]

I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well [e-mail] that's sounditouttogether.org brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal.

[Ed Helms]

Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here.

[Sarah Spain]

And I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I sign this, I'm going.

[Ed Helms]

To get a seven figure check.

[Sarah Spain]

I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks.

[Ed Helms]

From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creatives who built the cultural empire, the Atlanta Is podcast uncovers the stories behind one of the most influential cities in the world.

[Sarah Spain]

World.

[Ed Helms]

The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with Ludacris, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more. The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as, like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent creatives in all walks of life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment.

[Sarah Spain]

And that's, like, how, you know, like, okay. Oh, you from Atlanta for real? I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. All right, let's get back to Mr. Napoleon. He was getting a little too big for his cute little white britches. And he started for a second.

[Sarah Spain]

He did it again.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, that one was deliberate. You're right. Okay. He started forcing France's allies into a strict economic boycott of Great Britain. Most went along with this, but there was one holdout, one stick in the mud, and that was Russia. Napoleon did not think that that was very bon. So guess what he did. What do you do when another country pisses you off?

[Sarah Spain]

Tariffs.

[Ed Helms]

Good answer. Not correct. You just invade. You're pissed off at another country, you invade them. It's June 1812, and Napoleon is really feeling himself big time. He's giving Major I alone can fix this vibes. And he's got the largest army Europe has ever seen. 650,000 troops. And that's not even counting all the mimes who are just pretending to be troops. Come on.

[Sarah Spain]

And all the bakers that made the baguettes for the troops every morning that were forced into battle with baguettes as swords when things went a stale.

[Ed Helms]

Baguette is a. That is a weapon for sure.

[Sarah Spain]

Hard as hell. Yeah. You can't break a tooth.

[Ed Helms]

You can't eat it. You're gonna use it on the battlefield for sure.

[Sarah Spain]

Can I ask you an honest question, Ed? How many guests do you have on this podcast who are listening along, and you could tell by their face that they recognize all the dates and names you're saying, and then suddenly realize they retained nothing from school? And while they've heard of Robespierre and they believe 1812 to be a pretty big year for some stuff?

[Ed Helms]

Couple of months.

[Sarah Spain]

If you made them take a quiz right now, they'd be, like, not entirely sure what happened. Honestly, Marie Antoinette definitely got her head cut off. I remember that.

[Ed Helms]

It doesn't matter. Like, we're that's what I'm here for. We're just hanging out, enjoying it together. And some of these things, like, you know, I dip into them as, like, new research projects from, like, episode to episode, but I don't retain stuff either.

[Sarah Spain]

No. I was going to say, if we learned one thing from history, it's that we don't remember history.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. So with all this military might, Napoleon's like, it's time to teach Russia a lesson. He's fully convinced they're a total mess. They're disorganized, underprepared, and just not at all at his level. And he even claims publicly that this whole thing will be wrapped up in 20 days, which, spoiler alert, might be the mother of all jinxes. I'm curious. You're an athlete. You cover sports. Like, do you believe in superstitions and jinxes? Streaks, hot streaks, all that kind of thing?

[Sarah Spain]

I don't believe in superstitions. Like, oh, if you sat on the couch in this one specific spot, wearing this one specific shirt, and your team won. If you change that up, they're gonna lose. I think the average fan has absolutely no import on the outcome. But there's a guy named Ben Cohen who wrote a book called the Hot Hand, and he actually dove into the concept of whether athlete is essentially better in the middle of having, like, the hot hand, the NBA jam, if you will. He's on fire, if there's actually such a thing. And it's a really complicated and fascinating look at, like, the parts that feel like it's a very clear thing. You're almost in flow state, which most creative types understand, versus whether it's simply about confidence mixed with a trained body. Right. If you have enough muscle memory to remember the thing you're supposed to be doing, and you can get so in the flow state and so confident that you're not overthinking anything. You just naturally do the thing successfully over and over again, which then becomes like, you're on fire or you're in the zone. So I believe in it for the athlete. I do not believe in it for the fan.

[Ed Helms]

I still feel like if I wear the wrong color socks, the Dodgers will lose. So that's.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, keep wearing them then, because I'm a Cubs fan.

[Ed Helms]

French troops moved into Russia. Russian generals deployed a very interesting strategy. Instead of standing their ground, they just kept retreating again and again, letting Napoleon's troops chase them deeper and deeper into Russian territory. Why would they do this? This seems insane, right? Well, it was actually quite savvy because the French were burning through their supplies, getting farther and farther from their reinforcements. And despite the crushing heat and endless mud and tons of disease ravaging all the troops, they kept marching like they took the bait. They just kept going straight into Russia. Cue the dramatic music. Because this was all a trap. The Russian army was employing what is known as a scorched earth strategy, meaning they would burn down their own towns and torch all of their own supplies as they retreated, basically saying, if we can't have it, neither can you. Oh, no, wait, they're Russian. I can't do a Russian accent.

[Sarah Spain]

It's very smart. I mean.

[Ed Helms]

I mean, it's brutal, but shrewd. So. So this scorched earth policy basically meant that Napoleon's army couldn't live off local food stores and supplies, which would be the typical practice of an invading army.

[Sarah Spain]

And beef stroganoffs and such, of course.

[Ed Helms]

And they really couldn't do anything except keep marching, exhausted and starving, deeper and deeper into what was quickly becoming a hellscape. Now, you've been around a lot of competition. What's more valuable, brute strength or sound strategy? How do you find that balance?

[Sarah Spain]

Well, actually, something I learned in laser tag is you have to have the upper ground. The most important thing out of the three is you have to have the upper ground so that you could see down upon your enemy. And your strategy improves because you're able to see them, and often they can't see you.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, laser tag.

[Sarah Spain]

In laser tag or in life, once you've established the higher ground. I am way more into strategy than brute strength. I believe there's a time and place, like a bar fight, where brute strength will likely win. And everywhere else where strategery is involved, I think it's more about the brain. Brains over brawn.

[Ed Helms]

I think you're right. And I say that because I'm a weakling, and I like to think I could persevere in a tough situation. Now, despite numerous what we can only imagine to be stern warnings from many of his top advisors about turning around, Napoleon was convinced that he could lead the French army to victory in Moscow. He was all in on chasing this glory. At one point, he nearly caught the Russians at the city of Smolensk. But instead of pressing his advantage, he paused the march on what happened to be his 43rd birthday. Because nothing says military genius like taking a personal day during a war.

[Sarah Spain]

I would presume champagne was involved, though, right?

[Ed Helms]

I guess.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

I mean, it is weird how well, the officers lived right in these. On these Like. Like, they had, like, these incredible tents with furniture and butlers and servants and all kinds of stuff.

[Sarah Spain]

There's a famous Napoleon champagne quote. In victory, you deserve it. In loss, you need it.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, interesting. So it's kind of like just always have it on hand. There you go.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah. I believe he might have been the originator of the sabering. Oh, that would crack a champagne saber.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, yeah, I've done it.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, me too. I think it's tied back to Napoleon and his thoughts on champagne. Don't quote me on that. But that's something I've been taught.

[Ed Helms]

I like that. The only downside of this birthday party is that the party favors were lice and typhus, which is a horrible disease spread by lice. Oh.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, no.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, yeah. This army was really, really bedraggled at this point, so we're settling into a cycle here. Chase, scor. Repeat. But there was one proper showdown, and that was on September 7, 1812, at the Battle of Borodino. It was brutal. Both sides took massive casualties, but the Russians had the edge. They were closer to home and could rebuild faster. Napoleon's army, not so much. This raises a good question. Home field advantage. Is it always an advantage, or is it sometimes a liability?

[Sarah Spain]

I would say it's always an advantage.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

I don't think it's. It's always gonna tip the scales, but I would say it's arguably almost never a disadvantage. Although I can think of a couple places where the ownership was so hated that being at home and still being showered with booze and rage over the decision making of your front office, GM, president, et cetera, might be more frustrating than just being on the road and accepting that the opposing team's fans will hate you. But I think, for the most part, knowing you came from your house and you're going back to it, you know, the lay of the land, all that stuff. Maybe you get some hometown whistles because the fans are subconsciously affecting the officiating. Usually a good thing. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

And I would think that just roar of a hometown crowd is gonna give you so much adrenaline, but at the same time, I could see how, like, going into the sort of den of the enemy could also be like. Like, kind of like rage inducing in a powerful way and in a maybe an inspiring way. Napoleon finally made it to Moscow on September 14th. Victory. Right. I mean, it's the capital city of Russia. He took the capital. That's got it. That should be it. Like, game over. Not quite. Napoleon believed capturing Moscow would force Tsar Alexander to seek peace as had occurred with all of the other European capitals he had invaded. However, he massively underestimated the Russians resolve and their flair for strategic nihilism. When Napoleon's battered troops entered the city, it was a smoldering husk. Russian forces had completely torched it, their own capital city. On the way out, civilians had fled. Supplies were nearly non existent. No food, no shelter, and not even any officials to negotiate with. And to top it off, the legendary Russian winter was fast approaching.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, this is like when you play the packers in December.

[Ed Helms]

Yes.

[Sarah Spain]

You just, you know, if you know that you've got an extra man on your side and it's the hail and sleet, and if you're the packers and conditions at Lambeau. Yeah, yeah. Invited the Chicago Bears over and then just left them there.

[Ed Helms]

They got old man Winter on their side.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, man, that's. That's a great way to think about it. Things are dire, but Napoleon is still convinced he just won the war. So he sends Tsar Alexander a letter politely requesting his surrender. Now, to be fair, 18th century military etiquette did allow for this kind of thing. But after five freezing, miserable weeks with no response, it became clear Napoleon was just. Just being ghosted, like, hard. And the worst part, he had absolutely no leverage left. I love this. He's like, I took your capital. I won. And the Russians were just like, shh, don't pay him any attention. He'll leave. And they're right.

[Sarah Spain]

That is incredible.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

You would never imagine that the goal would be to trash your own place and just retreat, retreat, retreat, Run away, run away, as they say in Monty Python. And then it would work, because you don't even consider the fact that the opposing side doesn't have any backups.

[Ed Helms]

It's weirdly nihilistic to torch your own city. But they saved their city by doing that. Weirdly. Of course, they had to rebuild, but it was still theirs. Because finally, with no food, no shelter, and by the way, fresh whispers of yet another coup brewing back home, Napoleon had no choice. In mid October, with the first snow starting to fall, he ordered the retreat.

[Sarah Spain]

Wow.

[Ed Helms]

Great timing, right?

[Sarah Spain]

Having gained nothing.

[Ed Helms]

Nothing.

[Sarah Spain]

Having won nothing. Gained nothing other than, I guess a big chunk of Russia is now ash. Right. They did achieve burning down a significant number of cities and towns and a big city center in Moscow.

[Ed Helms]

But they weren't able to claim.

[Sarah Spain]

Because they didn't claim anything.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it was a total loss. And as we'll soon.

[Sarah Spain]

Do you think he went back and said it was a complete and total obliteration and then his people were like, I don't know, the journalists of the dire council.

[Ed Helms]

Well, we had some reporters there. A little bit of a different story, my friend. So what was left of the French army, which they lost so many people. We'll get to the numbers shortly. But what was left of the army limped away towards the border and finally made it out of Russia in late December of 1812. But at this point, Napoleon wasn't even with them. He had actually abandoned his troops to rush back to Paris on December 5, not because he left the oven on, but because those coup rumors were really heating up. Now. There was actually a coup brewing, and it was quashed pretty quickly. Still, what kind of co do which leaves his players in the dust like that?

[Sarah Spain]

There's an NFL player who retired at halftime. No, it was not an important game. It was just a regular season game. But at halftime, he was like, yep, Think that's about it for me.

[Ed Helms]

What?

[Sarah Spain]

Vonte Davis. Vonte Davis.

[Ed Helms]

That's intense. Well, this was, needless to say, a brutal escapade. Let's review the numbers here. Napoleon had marched into Russia with over 600,000 troops. Fewer than 100,000 made it out. Not good. Not a good look. And after this, the dominoes started to fall pretty fast. Napoleon's aura of invincibility was shattered, and his enemies pounced. By 1814, a coalition of major European powers, including Austria, Prussia, Russia, Britain, and others defeated him and sent him into exile on the island of Elba, which is kind of a beautiful island in the Mediterranean. So I was gonna say, sounds nice. Yeah. But Napoleon wasn't done yet. Less than a year later, he pulled the ultimate surprise bitch and escaped for a brief, chaotic comeback known as the Hundred Days. This ended at the famous Battle of Waterloo, where he was trounced again and sent packing again, this time to St. Helena, which is an extremely remote island way off in the South Atlantic. They learned their lesson. Like, we're not gonna put him in just like a nice fancy place. We're send him way the hell away. Meanwhile, the rest of Europe, traumatized by Napoleon's entire vibe, held the Congress of Vienna to redraw the map, restore monarchies, and basically agree, let's never do that again. Napoleon then died in exile in 1821, presumably still wearing that awesome hat. And you're Europe found a balance.

[Sarah Spain]

Spoiler alert. Napoleon's dead. Wow. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, yeah. No, he's dead. He didn't make it. He died.

[Sarah Spain]

Should put that at the beginning of the episode.

[Ed Helms]

He was Still a young man, in.

[Sarah Spain]

Case we haven't watched history yet.

[Ed Helms]

He was. I think he was in his 50s. He was like, 51 or something. Yeah. Evidently, when he went to St. Helena, his health declined pretty rapidly, in part because it's thought he was such a. This. This grand personality. And now he was just confined to this remote place with very little going on. And he became depressed and reclusive, and his health declined.

[Sarah Spain]

Died of a broken heart. Wow.

[Ed Helms]

I guess so.

[Sarah Spain]

I would have guessed gout, to be honest. I would have guessed gout.

[Ed Helms]

But he died of champagne poisoning.

[Sarah Spain]

What a shame. Yeah. Do you know how you get gout? It's literally too much alcohol and rich foods.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

I have a friend who got it in college from being a sorority system.

[Ed Helms]

Yikes. But it's also a genetic thing. You have a genetic predisposition for gout, right?

[Sarah Spain]

Sure. But we'll never stop making fun of her for getting the gout in college.

[Ed Helms]

Do you know Judah Friedlander, the comedian? He's so amazing. I've known him from way back, doing standup in New York in the 90s, and I remember he got gout. And he talked about it on stage. He talked about how it's like your toe becomes like a Fred Flintstone toe. It looks like you dropped a rock on your toe in. In a Flintstones cartoon, and it's now like Wal. Like a red bulb pulsating. Like, that's how badly it hurts. Yeah. Anyway, so Europe found a balance of power that was actually pretty rock steady until a certain world war broke out in 1914. But that is a story for another snafu day. And that, Sarah, Spain, that is our snafu for today. What did you learn? Any takeaways from Napoleon's disastrous invasion of Russia?

[Sarah Spain]

I mean, one of the things I learned was that there was more strategy even in the days of that kind of town. Torching battle.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

I'm impressed by the Russians, which feels like a strange thing to say right now, but truly good plan, well executed. Five out of five stars, Russia.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And if there's any lesson for Napoleon here, it's like. I mean, I feel like Kenny Rogers said it best. Right? You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, know when to run. He should have. He should have just thrown in the towel there, and I. I completely agree. Unfortunately, this is a vibe we still see a lot of today. Leaders doubling down instead of backing off, mistaking stubbornness for strength. We have tech CEOs telling us that AI is going to save us. Meanwhile, while it's really starting to feel like the fast track to full on.

[Sarah Spain]

Dystopia, I think the thing we started with at the beginning, the directory, the idea of co leading is something that should be getting a lot more attention in many spaces of late because it prevents that one egotistical, dictatorial person who will not stop themselves from being checked. And I think in a lot of business and corporate spaces there is a push for the kind of leadership that co leadership would embrace. Which is best idea wins. Bring everyone together, utilize the strengths of all the different people, elevate the people beneath you, empower them to make great decisions and do things. Instead of the sort of micromanaging of one person who needs to double check everything and sign off on everything, which is a complete waste of time, completely ineffective, and empowers one person to believe that they're the reason for all the success. And that's how you end up like Napoleon, where you've now convinced yourself you're so great that that every decision you're making must be the right one. Every decision you make going forward must be followed by no matter whether someone is telling you, hey, maybe there's a reason all these towns are already torched by the time we get to them.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly.

[Sarah Spain]

You think they've got a plan.

[Ed Helms]

Amen. Very well said. Sarah Spain, you just put a book out. Congratulations. In addition to your amazing podcast all about sports, tell us about Good Game first.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, so Good Game with Sarah Spain is the first and only, as far as we know, daily women's sports podcast. Yes, daily. It is a lot of work, but it is what was necessary. The folks who started the I Heart Women's Sports Network reached out and one of them was Sue Bird. And you can't say no to Sue Bird about really anything. Cause she's a legend. But when she said, we want you to do a show for the network, what would it look like? And I had just gotten out of 13 straight years of daily radio for ESPN. I was enjoying my first year of not having a show every day. And I stupidly said it's gotta be a daily show. Cause that's what's missing. Because in women's sports you really just need the same cadence of learning about the star stakes, stats and stories that are out there so that you get excited about the games and wanna watch them and attend them and buy the merch. And so we're offering that to people and people seem to love it, which is great.

[Ed Helms]

That's awesome. So you have A book. You just put a book out called Runs in the An Incredible True Story of Football, Fatherhood and Belonging. Give me the quick, like, breakdown.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, I wanted to be like you, so I wrote it all in the two weeks between when your book came out and mine came out. Can you believe it? So fast. No. So I wrote a story for ESPN and did a feature for ESPN a handful of years ago about this guy, Dylan McCullough. He's the running backs coach for the Las Vegas Raiders and grew up in Youngstown post steel mill collapse. Was adopted, never knew his birth family. His adoptive dad leaves when he's two. So sort of a troubled relationship with father figures. Gets into football, gets recruited, has a great career until he gets a knee injury and becomes a coach. And finally, in his 40s, the laws change in Pennsylvania, where he was born. He can get his birth cert. And he discovers after finding his mom, who never told the dad that she had gotten pregnant, was sent away to have the baby in private like they used to do in the 70s, finds out that his college football coach and mentor of almost 30 years was his birth dad all along. And neither of them knew it.

[Ed Helms]

Oh my God.

[Sarah Spain]

So it's this really unbelievable story, but also there's a ton in there about nature versus nurture. What we inherit through blood and DNA, what we inherit through family systems, emotional DNA lessons, all the things. And so I really wanted it to be a book about him. Cause his story's so incredible, but also a book that anyone would read and think to themselves, like, what are the irrefutable things that I've been passed on that I can't reject or deny? And what are the things I get to choose to hang onto or pass on?

[Ed Helms]

I can't wait to read this. It really, really sounds insanely inspiring. And congrats. Writing a book is a big freaking deal.

[Sarah Spain]

It's hard too. Congrats. It's a ton of work. Yeah, it is.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much for coming on Snafu. It has been an absolute pleasure.

[Sarah Spain]

Thanks for having me. It was really fun. I actually do feel like I was in history class, but with more cool Internet turns of phrase.

[Ed Helms]

Snafu is a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media, a partnership between Filmation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbow, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith, our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by the Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welch, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart podcast, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Itor, Nathan Otoski, and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, the Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com thanks for listening and see you next week.

[Sarah Spain]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.