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- [00:01]
Ed Helms
Everyone says, like, I could never join a cult. Like, I would never fall for that in saying I'm too.
- [00:05]
Jenny Slate
Oh, I would.
- [00:07]
Ed Helms
You would.
- [00:08]
Jenny Slate
I really love friendly groups. I love cooking. I love it when people are like trying to help each other actualize their dreams. And I like it when people like, are dedicated to each other. And a lot of times cults are like non violent except I don't like having to be naked in a group of people and I don't like having to do like oral sex to like the head of the cult that is.
- [00:30]
Ed Helms
That'S in the cult bylaw.
- [00:33]
Jenny Slate
There's usually some guy. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:52]
Josh Zieman
A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught, the answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zieman and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now listen for free on the.
- [01:16]
Ed Helms
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to snafu, the show about history's greatest screw ups. I'm Ed Helms, and more specifically, this is a show where we look at mishaps from history and wonder, oh, what does this say about humanity? And I always bring along a very exciting guest. Today I'm joined by one of my dear friends. She's an actress, a writer, a comedian. She's been in so many incredible shows and movies like it's borderline annoying, just to name a few. Obvious child Zootopia. Gifted, everything everywhere all at once. An Emmy nominee for Dying for Sex with Michelle Williams. An Oscar nominee for Marcel the Shell. She's the author of two fabulous books, Little Weirds and Lifeform. And she recently launched her own podcast called I need you guys with Gabe Liedman and Max Silvestri. Please welcome the amazing Ginny Slate. Hi.
- [02:19]
Jenny Slate
Hi, Ed. Hello.
- [02:21]
Ed Helms
We were neighbors for a short time, big time, here in Los Angeles. Yeah, I've known you for a long, long time. But then at some point in that you also were our neighbor and my family began to call you Kramer because.
- [02:34]
Jenny Slate
Of your wacky interest and also because it was like there wasn't a lot keeping me out. You know, like Kramer's always kind of busting through the door with some sort of really interesting concept. I'm not sure I had those interesting concepts, but I was Coming through the door with big, you know, big energy in my hair and really coming over a lot.
- [02:57]
Ed Helms
And it was a full open door policy for Kramer Slate to just come on in whenever she wanted. I miss those days.
- [03:03]
Jenny Slate
I do too. I really do. And I will say that I feel that we're making up for it as we were talking about earlier, but the fact that we now have become people who celebrate Thanksgiving together, not in Los Angeles at all, but it's just something we do and it's really. I love it so much. I. I just love it.
- [03:22]
Ed Helms
Yeah, me too. I'm very grateful for that. Well, we won't invite the world into our. Too deeply into our private lives, but I'm so excited for your podcast with Gabe and Max, who I also know and adore. Obviously it's a very crowded space now. I'm now in the fourth season of snafu. I'm like trying to box out everyone I can from also joining the podcast space because we need all the listeners we can get. So what are you doing? You're horning in on this format. But also congratulations and I'm excited for you. And what is it?
- [04:00]
Jenny Slate
We. We have a joke that it's like, it's only. It took us only 16 years to finally do a podcast. It just took us so long. Like every other comedian in the world has had a podcast for many years now. And we just, like, I don't know, what can I say? We like to chill. But Gabe and Max and I, I don't know, 15 years ago, really started a standup show in New York. First it was in Manhattan at Rafifi in the East Village, and then it was in Williamsburg. And we finally got our act together to do what we kind of do on stage just on a podcast, which is that like on in our standup show. We always started the standup show with a Q and A. Like, before anyone had any questions about our material, we would just ask random questions and it was really fun. And so now basically our podcast is like, it's kind of like making our group chat live. It's called I need you guys. Cause we don't live in the same places anymore and we still talk every day and we need each other. So we'll bring questions to each other about our lives and then we have a friend. Usually it's a comedian come and answer like an not reading copy. I don't need to, you know, misspeak like a question about etiquette.
- [05:15]
Ed Helms
It's a etiquite. Etiquite so just so our listeners know, this podcast is out.
- [05:21]
Jenny Slate
It is out.
- [05:21]
Ed Helms
And you can get into it right now.
- [05:24]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, it's really fabulous. It's kind of like sitting at a dinner table with friends. It's just a nice, easy, funny, easy listen.
- [05:32]
Ed Helms
All right, are you ready to snafu?
- [05:34]
Jenny Slate
I'm ready to snafu.
- [05:35]
Ed Helms
Let's do it. We're gonna jump into this. We're gonna venture all the way back to 1791. It was a tough year to be a French guy named Louis, especially if you were Louis xvi, the French king. So today's topic is the French Revolution. Now, I'd love to cover the whole thing, but that would take at least 10 podcasts and, like, a gallon of espresso and a PhD in guillotine technology. So instead, we're gonna just zoom in on this one really tiny but absolutely bonkers episode within the French Revolution. The royal escape attempt that went spectacularly wrong. It's sneaky, it is suspenseful, and it turned out to be a massive turning point in the entire revolution. This is the flight to Varennes. Are you ready?
- [06:31]
Jenny Slate
Hell, yeah, man. This is so cool. Yeah, I wasn't expecting to learn so much. And, you know, I love French stuff.
- [06:38]
Ed Helms
What is it you like about French stuff?
- [06:39]
Jenny Slate
I love all the jewels that I just stole from the Louvre. I love the crown I got. I super bummed that I dropped that other crown, but I love, like, the necklaces and stuff.
- [06:52]
Ed Helms
All right, a quick crash course on the French Revolution before we get to our main event here. It all started because France was basically broke, the peasants were starving, and the monarchy was still out there throwing lavish parties. Picture an episode of Succession where they all go to a rave in powdered wigs. So the French people, people were just finally like, enough. This is enough. And they stormed the Bastille, and they decided maybe government shouldn't be run exclusively by rich douchebags. Good. A good policy.
- [07:24]
Jenny Slate
I feel like that.
- [07:25]
Ed Helms
Have any rich douchebags, like, historically have they Have. Have any of them nailed it?
- [07:30]
Jenny Slate
Not that I can. I can currently think of. No one's coming to mind right now.
- [07:36]
Ed Helms
It's rough. Yeah, it's rough out there for. For the populations run by rich douchebag.
- [07:41]
Jenny Slate
It's not great.
- [07:42]
Ed Helms
We'll cut to a couple years later. And now, and the revolutionaries have taken power, and King Louis xvi, Marie Antoinette, and their kids are basically grounded. They're under house arrest in the Tuilly palace in the heart of Paris, and the revolutionaries are frantically trying to reinvent their entire System of government, which is no small task. Marie Antoinette, of course, famous for the phrase let them eat cake, darn it. Which is a very rude thing to say when people are starving and they can't get bread.
- [08:18]
Jenny Slate
I know, but I don't think she said that.
- [08:20]
Ed Helms
She didn't.
- [08:20]
Jenny Slate
No, you're right. I read this book that says that. She did not say that. You know she didn't say that.
- [08:26]
Ed Helms
She didn't say it.
- [08:27]
Jenny Slate
Yo, she didn't say that. If you're gonna come at me like that, like. She did not say that. Like check, check your facts.
- [08:33]
Ed Helms
I'm so sorry. I was going to be all smarty pants and be like. But she did it and you jumped on that. And kudos to you for knowing that. It originally appeared in Jean Jacques Rousseau's Confessions, which he wrote in 1766. Marie Antoinette was 10 years old and she was living in Austria, so obviously she didn't say it. So it's early 1791. This is before the revolution had gone full just like guillotine, chopping everybody's heads off. And France is now experienc experimenting with this brand new idea, the constitutional monarchy where the king will share power with the population. And spoiler alert, King Louis did not like this. He was not a fan. The people were rising up and he was feeling very threatened by all of this. So by June of that year, the revolutionaries were finishing up their shiny new constitution codifying all of this. And King Louis, ever the people pleaser, was out there pretending to be totally chill about it. He was like, yeah, let's have parliament run things. I'll just be like a figurehead, a decorative monarch, a bit of a, like just a human chandelier, if you will, hanging over France. And this of course is right after the actual American Revolution. And it just raises, I don't know, it raises this interesting philosophical question for me. Like oppressed people very often rise up at a certain. They reach a breaking point and they rise up and then they either choose as the sort of American Revolution and the French Revolution that option was democracy, or like a representative government, like down with these bully kings. Or the other option is an oppressed population will sort of like rise up and elevate a strong man who is essentially a king of sorts. And why do you think that happens? I think the strongman version is actually more common and it speaks to like something in the human condition. Are we just. Is freedom too messy? Is it too complicated? Are we. Is too scary?
- [10:39]
Jenny Slate
You know what I think it is? I mean, not to Be like so self serious. But I actually think it has to do with like fear and trauma. The American Revolution. It's like a lot of those people were like wealthy landowners who were like, we don't want King George. You know, like, we want to do our own thing. They weren't really like, we, the people rising up, like, they were like, wealthy, you know, and then they took like, their education and their wealth and they like made, you know, a democracy. But like, if you're just like traumatized and frightened and you. You're starving, like, of course you're gonna be like dada and just like replace a bad dad with what seems like a good dad. Like, you know, just one thing at a time. Let's just get this guy, or, you know, I guess occasionally a lady. But it's kind of all. It's like always the men, like, get this guy out of here. And like, I think. I think New dad is actually gonna be like, nice dad, you know, I don't know. That's my take on it, but, you know, I'm a professional cl. A historian. That's just how I feel.
- [11:41]
Ed Helms
I think that's a very, very sharp take. Well, well said King Louis. At this point, he's. He's kind of, kind of freaking out, and he's kind of stuck in the middle, pretending everything's fine and pretending like he has value and has power, but he's. He's seeing it all slip away. So he. And. And he's feeling threatened also. He's feeling like his. His life and his family are very much in danger now in this, in the middle of Paris. So he hatches this plan. They're gonna slip out of Paris. They're gonna meet up with loyal troops near the border and stage a royal comeback. But first, they must escape Paris. And thus begins the flight to Varennes.
- [12:24]
Jenny Slate
Wow. Okay, can I just ask, like, during this time when he's stuck in. When they're stuck in there, is he still, you know, having like three glazed gooses a day? You know what I mean? Like, is he still having those, like, crazy elaborate meals and, you know, wearing, wearing, wearing the stuff, just like doing all that stuff? Is he still just like all procedures are still those, like three hour baths or whatever, you know?
- [12:49]
Ed Helms
Yeah, A three hour bath with three glazed gooses.
- [12:53]
Jenny Slate
Yeah.
- [12:54]
Ed Helms
My sense of it, and keep in mind, I'm very much falling into the amateur historian category, but my sense of it is that this is a scaled back version of that. So in Versailles, it was a mess. Like, it was so Decadent. The parties, all of the insanity leading up to this, there had been protest, march, where they actually grabbed the royal family and marched them to Paris. And this was a very humbling experience. And so, yes, they are still in a palace. They're still technically royalty. They're still trying to hash out this shared leadership idea, the constitutional monarchy. So they're still acting like a king and queen. And so I do think there are glazed gooses in the mix and there are crowns and fancy attire, but it's not quite what it was. Very recently in Versailles, they've been humbled and they're now scared.
- [13:51]
Jenny Slate
Okay, got it.
- [13:52]
Ed Helms
So the plan they hatch is quite bold. It's like total cloak and dagger stuff. Louis was planned to be disguised as a valet, Marie as a governess, and they were posing as the entourage of this fake Russian baron. And they would slip out of Paris in dark of night, then, of course, link up with their loyal troops and spark a royal comeback. This is, in theory, a flawless plan, but in reality, it turned into a train wreck, or, as we will soon see, a carriage wreck of sorts. This elaborate plan, it's very, like I said, it's cloak and daggery. It starts to fall apart immediately. The palace maid noticed the family packing and starts asking weird questions, like, what's going on? They have that detachment from reality where they still feel like they have to bring, like, crazy amounts of royal luggage.
- [14:47]
Jenny Slate
And, oh, my God, that situation where you're, like, so rich you don't know how to do anything. It's like, just get out of here, man. Yeah, just don't pack a trunk. You don't need your, like, silver bugle or whatever. And, like, all your pantaloons, like, just get out.
- [15:01]
Ed Helms
I mean, the silver bugle might come in handy.
- [15:03]
Jenny Slate
You don't get a bed. You don't get. What do they call it? A little. The thing. They go to the bathroom, you don't get to chamber pot.
- [15:09]
Ed Helms
Yeah, there you go. You would have been such a better Marie Antoinette.
- [15:13]
Jenny Slate
Oh, my God.
- [15:14]
Ed Helms
This delays them, like, a day or two. And there are, as part of the plan, of course, there are loyal soldiers or, you know, soldiers that are still loyal to the king that are supposed to meet up with them along the route. And they've been stationed in these villages, but when the king isn't showing up, they're just these soldiers in these towns, and that's raising questions. The peasantry is getting real antsy, and, like, what are all soldiers doing here? This does not feel chill. It kind of feels like the National Guard, like marching into like a normal city. Like what? People, people are crazy. It upsets people.
- [15:53]
Jenny Slate
That would be really disconcerting and wrong and feel like maybe it's illegal. We're waiting for a judge to say.
- [15:59]
Ed Helms
I mean. Yeah, so. So that's the same vibe going on in the, in these villages. And that wasn't the only delay. So it's finally time to skedaddle. And now the commander of the Palace Guard has decided it's the perfect time for like an hours long chit chat with the king. Fun fact, the commander of the guards was none other than the Marquis de Lafayette, who played a huge role in the American Revolution. And now he's back home. Oh yeah, this is from Hamilton.
- [16:33]
Jenny Slate
Oh my gosh. I haven't actually seen Hamilton, but I guess I should know that just because of like history. I know I have you never seen Hamilton? I don't, I just, I don't, I don't go to a lot of plays.
- [16:46]
Ed Helms
This is over. This is over.
- [16:49]
Jenny Slate
I know, I know. I like, I don't know why I admitted that. I just, I swear to God, like I haven't. I don't think I've ever been to a Broadway.
- [16:58]
Ed Helms
Are you serious? I am taking it seriously. Yeah.
- [17:01]
Jenny Slate
I was supposed to go see Waiting for Godot like 2 weeks ago and our daughter got sick, so we didn't go.
- [17:06]
Ed Helms
Oh, so you're still waiting to see Waiting for Godot?
- [17:09]
Jenny Slate
I don't know if he had.
- [17:10]
Ed Helms
You're still waiting for him?
- [17:11]
Jenny Slate
I don't, I don't know if they found him, but yeah, no, I just like for a while when I lived in New York and I was a student, I didn't have enough, like, I don't have the extra money to go to Broadway.
- [17:20]
Ed Helms
It takes time. It takes time to do that.
- [17:22]
Jenny Slate
I just gave up. And then. Yeah, I don't know.
- [17:26]
Ed Helms
Anyway, the Marquis de Lafayette is played masterfully by Daveed Diggs.
- [17:31]
Jenny Slate
Oh, cool.
- [17:31]
Ed Helms
The Marquis de Lafayette is a fascinating. Like, he deserves his own podcast. He like basically went to America and was like, hey, George Washington, I'm here to help. I just think your whole cause is awesome. He was a major force in the American Revolution. Then he went back to France and now he's sympathetic with the revolutionaries in France and he's been put in charge of keeping an eye on King Louis. And of course they have a very professional but fraught relationship because he's guarding him essentially from the mobs, but also from escaping or from. So anyway, they have a long chat, but it Delays the escape even further. Now, despite all the delays, King Louie is still raring to go. And they sneak out down a back staircase of the palace. Ooh. And here's where just the sort of like, cartoon mistake missteps begin. Like, this is where it becomes like Keystone Cops. So the original plan had called for fast carriages, right? They would get into, like, a little clump of carriages and be on their way. But this did not sit well with Marie Antoinette. She wanted to keep the family together, which is understandable. If they got separated, it could get scary. But unfortunately, this also changed the entire journey because they wound up in this enormous carriage. So the coach itself was a loner from Axel von Fersen the younger, who happened to be. This is debated, but many think he was actually Marie Antoinette's dashing Swedish lover. What is documented is he sent her tons of flowers over the years. We have an artistic rendering of Axel here. Let's take a gander at this guy.
- [19:21]
Jenny Slate
Let's see this guy. Ooh. Oh, wow. Look at those peepers.
- [19:24]
Ed Helms
Yeah, right.
- [19:26]
Jenny Slate
You mean what? I'm not sure. I'm not sure what. I think the person that painted his picture did a pretty weird job. It looks like he looks like, you know when sometimes people wear those George Washington masks, like. Like they have George Washington. You have your own face on the bottom, and then you, like, put George Washington over your, like, you know, where a raccoon mask would be. Those look like two different faces.
- [19:53]
Ed Helms
Yeah, no, you're right. But what I do love about this, he's so smug. Like, he's so. He's like, so smarmy and, like, you can get. But, like the sex appeal of someone like that. Oh, my gosh, you could get lost in those eyebrows.
- [20:09]
Jenny Slate
That's a look of placid, perverted, deliberate entitlement. Yeah, he just does not care.
- [20:23]
Ed Helms
This carriage was massive and extremely conspicuous. One historian called the paint job quite eye catching. Yellow and black or gold and black. And there were three bodyguards also dressed in jaunty clothes. Basically, in today's terms, this would be like a limousine painted like a bumblebee is kind of what I'm picturing on top of the paint job. The carriage itself was so heavy that it required frequent stops to change horses.
- [20:54]
Jenny Slate
Oh, God.
- [20:56]
Ed Helms
This is where King Louis got himself into even more trouble because. Because King Louis believed that the people of Paris obviously were against him. The mobs were rallying, but he still thought that the country folk, the people out in the countryside, were royalists and supported him. So he would actually get out and start chatting people up and just kind of, like, being totally transparent. Like, what's up, everybody? It's your king.
- [21:23]
Jenny Slate
High five. Oh, no.
- [21:26]
Ed Helms
This was not. This was not smart. And even when they were rolling along, apparently he would, like, hang his head out the carriage window and just be like, what's up? It's me, your fabulous tweet. He kind of felt like he was the Beatles in the 60s. And I just. I don't know if this was savvy. This feels like ego getting in the way of good judgment.
- [21:50]
Jenny Slate
Gosh, what a dumb. Dumb. Like, his. Whoever were his, like, devoted handlers must have just been like, oh, my God, just try to keep him inside the thing.
- [21:57]
Ed Helms
Yeah. Like, come on.
- [21:58]
Jenny Slate
He just doesn't get it. He doesn't really get it.
- [22:01]
Ed Helms
You know, I think there is something, like, when we see that a lot of these tech titans today, you know, that. That have so much wealth and so much power and access there does their behavior does start to betray. Like, you don't really know what's going on in the world, and you don't even really know how people behave anymore. Like, you're clearly detached from a sense of, like, normal decorum or just normal kind of like how people interface.
- [22:36]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, yeah. Like, no sense of, like, what sort of on the ground risk looks like, like, in a social, relational way.
- [22:44]
Ed Helms
Yeah.
- [22:45]
Jenny Slate
It's like, hey, whoa. Like, a lot of us would not do that. You shouldn't do that thing that you just did.
- [22:51]
Ed Helms
Yeah.
- [22:51]
Jenny Slate
Really weird. Really out of touch.
- [22:54]
Ed Helms
The royal family was just to be a little more specific. They were heading to Montmdy, which is a fortress town near today's Belgium. And that is where Louis was hoping to, you know, regroup and then negotiate safely with the French National Assembly. But when they reached their first rendezvous point to meet up with loyal soldiers who would hopefully escort them, no one was there, of course, because they had waited and waited and, oh, no, things had gotten weird with the villagers and the soldiers had left. It's definitely giving, like, Griswold family arriving at Wally World vibes. Just like, nothing. There's nothing there. Just maybe John Candy in a security guard outfit, and that's all you get. These soldiers had all figured the plan was off, and they didn't want to hang around and raise more friction with all these villagers. And so they had just taken off. I personally don't blame them. That feels like they were in a very awkward position. And meanwhile, this giant bumblebee carriage had to stop and change horses yet again. And of course, Louis is out peacocking around, and naturally, he's spotted by people who are recognizing him. And unfortunately, he's also spotted by people who don't actually support him.
- [24:15]
Jenny Slate
Wow. And they're bold, right? Like, I bet they're really, really angry. Also, where are they getting the horses? Like, where are they? I don't know. Are there horse people that didn't leave?
- [24:25]
Ed Helms
Yeah.
- [24:25]
Jenny Slate
Cause it's like, if the soldiers left, like, it's super weird for the horse reinforcements to stay.
- [24:31]
Ed Helms
Well, but horse reinforcement people, they're not gonna raise any eyebrows. Like, that's just part of 18th century logistics, right? There's just always horses, and people, like, taking care of horses.
- [24:42]
Jenny Slate
They're flush with horses. I get it. But it's just weird that if they're all on the same operation, why can't a horse person be like, wait, wait, I know you guys feel uncomfortable here, but just stay because he is coming? Or did they not know that they were all part of something?
- [24:59]
Ed Helms
Well, here's another thing I don't know about horse logistics is if you pre plan all your horse changes or if it's more like a gas station, and you just stop and you're like, hey, can we trade you these travel horses for your fresh horses?
- [25:15]
Jenny Slate
I bet it was that. Yeah. I bet they're just going being like, give me. Give me the horse. Like, give me your horse right now. We need it. We can't say why, but then the.
- [25:23]
Ed Helms
King would be, like, popping out of the.
- [25:26]
Jenny Slate
Out of his little royal, like, roly poly popping out with mustard on his face.
- [25:33]
Ed Helms
Get in there, Louie. Jeez.
- [25:36]
Jenny Slate
Get back in the bumblebee, Louie.
- [25:38]
Ed Helms
All right, well, one of the people who recognized him was a postman who was furious that the king was escaping and jumped on his horse and dashed ahead of the carriage to the town of Varennes, which is only 30 miles from their final destination of Malmedi. It's so close. This guy got to Varennes ahead of them. He warned the town, and, of course. So when the carriage rolled in, there was a roadblock, and all of the local officials and guardsmen, they were out to snag the king, and they surrounded the carriage, and the royal escape was over.
- [26:17]
Jenny Slate
Oh, my God. And were they dressed as a governess and a. What was the other guy? What was the king gonna be?
- [26:24]
Ed Helms
He was gonna be a valet, but it seems like he had a real hard time with that role. Like, not only did he have no idea how a valet should behave, he probably was like, these clothes are very uncomfortable.
- [26:38]
Jenny Slate
I must yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:40]
Ed Helms
Can I just wear my royal robe? Just.
- [26:42]
Jenny Slate
I mean, just.
- [26:43]
Ed Helms
I mean, I'll still pretend to be a valet if anyone asks me, but I just need to be comfortable.
- [26:49]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. Wow. It's so stressful that they went in that big carriage.
- [26:54]
Ed Helms
It does reek of just a total misunderstanding, a misreading, a sort of like. Like, I'm with you. Like, going back to just the prep. Like, don't pack. Just go. By the way, they're going to Austria, which is where Marie Antoinette is from. Her brother is the king of Austria. So, like, they're gonna be fine. Just get there.
- [27:21]
Jenny Slate
It doesn't make any sense, but you're right that it does make sense when it's like, they're really. They're feeling fear, a fear that feels serious and that they're probably not used to feeling feeling. But they can't exactly make the, like, sort of, like, cognitive leap, like, the understanding to realize that that fear is also. Because a context has completely changed, and they're still, like, operating in the old context. And that is really. That's kind of like a lesson for all of us. It's like, oh, my God, you're on the. She just has to do a bunch of really new stuff. Like, just drop it and go. Yeah, just don't do any of your old stuff.
- [27:59]
Ed Helms
Oh, you are so on point. And you're actually, like, giving me, like, terror chills right now because I keep having this feeling that, like, America is changing and it won't ever change back. Like, it's not gonna be chill. We're in this weird. Yeah, it feels like the storm clouds are gathering and they're just not gonna go away.
- [28:23]
Jenny Slate
Totally. And also, I mean, not to get too. Become too much of a bummer, but, like, that is the story of, like, half of my. Like, my grandmother was a Holocaust survivor because her family liter Paris with nothing and went and, like, hid in the woods for years. But half of the family, like, didn't do that because it's like, in what. When you're, like. You're just, like, middle class in Paris, like, living in an apartment, and you have a new couch, and you run, like, a pocketbook and wallet and hat business. Like, the idea that your life would change that much, it just doesn't feel reasonable. It's like, it's really hard to take action in a way that is completely uncharacteristic or disconnected from. From everything that you've seen in life, even if you've seen it happen to other people, you know?
- [29:07]
Ed Helms
Yeah. Oh, man, it's so hard to compete.
- [29:09]
Jenny Slate
On a bumblebee carriage or whatever, you.
- [29:11]
Ed Helms
Know, and if your life is. Is so gilded as. As.
- [29:16]
Jenny Slate
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Ed Helms
As a royal person, like, it's. It that changes even harder. It's even. It's so much more dramatic feeling. Oh, yeah. But all the more necessary. All right, so now this is interesting. They had at least taken the step of putting together some false papers in case they were stopped like this. So they did have false passports, et cetera. But there's a final twist, which is that the officials, because of course, this was pre photography, they couldn't positively ID the king unless there was someone that they could verify knew the king. There was one instance of somebody sort of seeing his likeness on a piece of money, I believe a coin. And that was sort of a hint, like, we think it's the king because he resembles the, you know, this piece of money. Eventually, they. They got someone they. They knew had visited the king. And I believe this person was a loyalist to the king, but they brought him in to positively id. And, you know, you would think this guy showing up would. Would be. If he liked the king, he'd be like, oh, I don't know. I don't. Maybe. Maybe it's not the king.
- [30:23]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, how would I know?
- [30:24]
Ed Helms
But when. But when he. They brought. He was so overcome by seeing the king in the flesh that he actually bowed down on one knee and, like, immediately gave it away. So they were like, yep, we got him. We got the king. He's positively ID'd.
- [30:41]
Jenny Slate
Darn it.
- [30:42]
Ed Helms
The irony, of course, being that this is the treatment he had been hoping for from all of his. From all the country folk the whole time. But this is game over. This is it.
- [30:54]
Jenny Slate
And is this, like, the end?
- [30:56]
Ed Helms
So when the royal family was caught in Varennes, they were held until revolutionary soldiers arrived to drag them back to Paris. Descriptions of their return to the city of Paris are very dramatic. Apparently it was just dead silent. Like the mobs were out, but it was dead silent. I believe Robespierre had warned everyone, if you cheer for the king, you'll be punished. Or if you jeer or ridicule the king, you will also be punished. So people were dead quiet, which is spooky, right?
- [31:30]
Jenny Slate
Oh, my God. First of all, there's nothing worse, I think, than the silent treatment. It is such an insane power grab. It's absolutely so humiliating and obviously impossible to decipher, except for that something is wrong. And then to have everybody, like all of Paris, all of Paris, you're rolling into Town.
- [31:53]
Ed Helms
Yeah, it's just like, are you looking out the window? Like, hi. Sorry, everybody.
- [31:59]
Jenny Slate
Sorry, guys, sorry. We're just gonna shuffle forward a bit. We're gonna scooch back into. Or is this.
- [32:05]
Ed Helms
Are you guys mad?
- [32:06]
Jenny Slate
Or, like, are we still such a message of control? Like, if you're trying to say, like, you know, the power should belong to the people, and the people who are so impassioned are able to also control themselves and agree amongst themselves so much that they're all deadly still and quiet. That is. That's extraordinary.
- [32:29]
Ed Helms
It is, it's. It's.
- [32:32]
Jenny Slate
That's a major move. I don't think we'd be able to do that right now in ours.
- [32:36]
Ed Helms
You're right.
- [32:37]
Jenny Slate
In our realm.
- [32:43]
Ed Helms
A group of royal, Royal supporters at this point were trying to kind of like, spin the story to help the king save face. And they came up with this story that he'd been kidnapped by sinister foreign agents who actually wanted to invade France.
- [32:58]
Jenny Slate
Not bad, you know, I mean, it doesn't seem like that's what happened.
- [33:02]
Ed Helms
Yeah, and it's a good try. It doesn't really pass the smell test because the biggest problem with the foreigners kidnapped the poor king story is that that before they left the palace, King Louis had written a manifesto of sorts. He had said that all of his earlier agreements with the national assembly that supported the constitution, that all of that stuff was a lie, and that he had really just been buying time while he planned to retake the throne and retake the country from the revolutionary government. So he basically, like, laid out all, you know, thinking that he would be free.
- [33:41]
Jenny Slate
What was he doing?
- [33:42]
Ed Helms
Yeah, well, he thought he was escaping. And so he basically, it was leaving his kind of, like, thoughts behind so that people would understand and that hopefully maybe he might rally some support, I guess. And he thought he would be coming back from a. More from a position of power to say, like, hey, I'm here. It's time to negotiate with me. We're gonna restore the monarchy.
- [34:07]
Jenny Slate
Right.
- [34:08]
Ed Helms
But he actually was just kind of humiliated. And this turned out to be one of the primary pieces of evidence against him at trial.
- [34:18]
Jenny Slate
Look, you gotta keep your paperwork straight. You gotta. You gotta really think about when you're gonna show your papers.
- [34:24]
Ed Helms
This was a huge turning point in the revolution because to the extent that there was a belief that they could make this constitutional monarchy work and that they could sort of share power between a sort a figurehead monarch and representatives of the people, this escape attempt just blew that out of the water. And all of a sudden now the revolutionaries are furious at the monarchy, they're furious at the King, and they want him gone. And the monarchy was fully abolished by the revolutionary government in 1792. All of this, the escape attempt and the letter that he'd left behind were all used against him as evidence of at trial. And he was, of course, sentenced to death.
- [35:17]
Jenny Slate
Oh, man.
- [35:18]
Ed Helms
What do you think? Was that fair?
- [35:21]
Jenny Slate
I don't know. I don't like. The guillotine is really, really gross. It's really, really gross, you know? Yeah. Not my choice. Not my choice. Death penalty.
- [35:33]
Ed Helms
You know, the interesting thing about the guillotine is that it was invented by someone opposed to the death penalty because their main beef with the death pen is how inhumane it is. And the thought was that the guillotine was the most humane way to kill someone because it's so clean and fast. Right. I. I don't know. It. Yeah, it's so gruesome. Right? It's just.
- [35:59]
Jenny Slate
And it's so scary. It's not like whoever that executioner was was like, the Temple Grandins of France or whatever. He wasn't the Temple Grandin of France. You know what I mean?
- [36:08]
Josh Zieman
Like.
- [36:08]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, you know, there's. There's something also about the. The beheading of Marie Antoinette that has always, like, made me feel. Maybe it's just all ladies that get beheaded, like, in history that I know about, which is, like, genuinely too. It's like Anne Boleyn and Marie Antoinette, and I'm just like, oh, you didn't have to do that.
- [36:27]
Ed Helms
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:29]
Jenny Slate
It's like, put her somewhere else. Get her out of here, you know, if you don't like her. But, like, ugh, I don't. It breaks my heart.
- [36:36]
Ed Helms
Yeah. It is upsetting, I think, even like, wherever you stand on the death penalty thing, like, did they deserve that in this moment? But it was, I think, for the revolutionaries, such a symbolic gesture of, like, death to not just these particular people. It was death to monarchy as a concept. Like, we are removing this, and of course, we're just, like, nixing the bloodline. We're making it permanent. That's. Death is permanent. And. Yeah, but it's grisly. And this is not me defending it. This is me just trying to get into the heads of these. Of the revolutionaries. Of course, it also is a very slippery slope because this led to Robespierre's infamous Reign of Terror, where thousands of people were just, like, unceremoniously beheaded.
- [37:28]
Jenny Slate
Well, that's what I was gonna say is, like, you do send a Signal that this is possible. If you go against what's happening. And first it's like you behead the monarchy. And I get that. But then it's like this thing that we did is so extreme and it has to hold that if anybody even seems like they're not gonna be with it, they also have to get their heads chopped off. And that is not the way. I mean, this morning I was actually listening to Ken Burns talk about his new documentary about the Revolutionary War. And he was like, a country is born in violence. But eh, after a while there's gotta be another system that steps up. Like a, you know, system of rule of law and that kind of thing.
- [38:11]
Ed Helms
I think, I mean, at this point don't we have a good grasp on like what works best?
- [38:17]
Jenny Slate
Yeah, I think we do.
- [38:19]
Ed Helms
Isn't the data in?
- [38:21]
Jenny Slate
I think the data actually is in. And then there's like five guys who are like, we don't. Well, let me do my own research.
- [38:29]
Ed Helms
Yeah.
- [38:33]
Jenny Slate
Like the idea that I would ever quote, unquote, do my own research, like, I don't know how to do that. You know, I don't think I'm an idiot, but I'm not like a scientist or a politician. Like, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I'd love to trust the experts.
- [38:48]
Ed Helms
Actually, there's one last little epilogue here. This is kind of fun. A little post credit scene if you will. Because I know you're curious about the last big old dangling thread here. What happened to our Swedish boy toy, Axel von Fersen, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, he himself was killed by an angry mob when he was mistakenly accused of poisoning the Swedish prince in 1810.
- [39:14]
Jenny Slate
Wow.
- [39:15]
Ed Helms
But yeah, angry mobs were a real big deal at this point.
- [39:20]
Jenny Slate
They're really scary. I mean, we had one recently in our nation. It's scary. Yeah, they're scary.
- [39:28]
Ed Helms
They don't generally make good decisions.
- [39:31]
Jenny Slate
No.
- [39:32]
Ed Helms
I read somewhere a quote, I wish I could remember who to attribute it to. The intelligence of a mob is that of the dumbest person in the mob. So like the behavior, like an entire mob behaves as the dumbest person in the mob.
- [39:50]
Jenny Slate
Actually I was just thinking about like if for some reason Americans were able to be totally silent while someone rolled through town, that they didn't like that. Like when I said we'd never be able to do it, like I was fully imagining myself in the silent crowd, not being able to stop myself from being like, who farted? Like just like that. It's so tempting to disturb you know, the stillness. I think I would be the weakest those, the dumbest person in the mob. I'm the person that changes us from a cohort into like a freak out.
- [40:29]
Ed Helms
Could you ever see yourself being swept up in a mob?
- [40:33]
Jenny Slate
I think it's like emotionally.
- [40:35]
Ed Helms
Yeah, I feel, because I feel like it's one of those things that, that we all think like we're, that we're. It's sort of like cults. Right? Everyone says like I could never join a cult. Like I would never fall for that in saying I'm too. You would.
- [40:51]
Jenny Slate
I don't think I would be in a mob because I don't consider myself to be like an impulsive and I don't have like sort of, you know, like the switchblade of a temper that just like comes out. But I really love friendly groups. I love cooking. I love it when people are like trying to help each other actualize their dreams. And I like it when people like are dedicated to each other. And a lot of times cults are like non violent. I used to have a stand up bit about this actually. About how like I would totally get drawn into a cult because like I like all the things that they do except I don't like having to be naked in a group of people and I don't like having to do like oral sex to like a very, very elderly person who has a long beard, which I feel like they make you do. Like the head of the cult that.
- [41:35]
Ed Helms
Is, that's, that's in the cult, the cult bylaws.
- [41:38]
Jenny Slate
There's usually some guy who's like, you know what? Actually a lot of the more interesting members of the cult are, are doing.
- [41:48]
Ed Helms
Yeah. Yes. But wait, why haven't you, you fallen into a cult then? There are lots of them out there. There are lots of great options.
- [41:56]
Jenny Slate
Hey, I've got a strong family, really great friends that are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't go in there.
- [42:02]
Ed Helms
Good answer. I also think that you are a inquisitive person and you're someone who like you're, you're not only very intelligent and sort of like educated and you've taken it upon yourself to learn about the world and learn about people. And I think that is some of the best armor against these kinds of groupthink or indoctrination of some kind. The minute you start asking questions, even with genuine curiosity, not even like an accusatory like wait a minute, but you're just sort of like now hold on. Why do you think I should Blow that old man with a beard. Like, what's the reason? Like, why are we getting. What's.
- [42:46]
Jenny Slate
Why would we have to do that, though? Like, you know, like, if we're all gonna transcend and have clear minds, why would we need to do that? Yeah. And you know, what is a good place to start for me sometimes is like, I will ask myself, or sometimes other people, like, if this were a movie, who would you be? And, like, what part of the story, like, would it seem like a good story? If this were a parable, if this were, like, a religious text or a fairy tale, who would you be? Who would they be? Yeah.
- [43:19]
Ed Helms
Yeah. Who would they be? That's a great question.
- [43:22]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. Who would they be?
- [43:23]
Ed Helms
I think you're onto something really quite elegant, which is that stories, movies, parables, this sort of broad, whatever, gestalt of human storytelling is rooted in fundamental values. Right. Like a sense of right and wrong. My kid loves the Lion King, and so I've gotten very deep into the sort of, like, Lion King universe, and. And that is a movie where good and bad is so clearly delineated and bad is portrayed with Nazi symbolism.
- [44:02]
Jenny Slate
Totally. I mean, when he sings Be Prepared, that is. Those hyenas are doing it.
- [44:10]
Ed Helms
Hyenas are literally goose stepping.
- [44:12]
Jenny Slate
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Ed Helms
And so it's so interesting to me that those kinds of stories that obviously have an intent to kind of raise children with a sense of right and wrong and a sense of sort of trepidation towards that kind of behavior, towards scars behavior, and yet we see a cultural swing to a greater trust in that. Like, I'm so confused. That's such cognitive dissonance for me and that I'm trying to work through and understand.
- [44:46]
Jenny Slate
Yeah. Cause, you know, there's also the thing about the fairy tale, and I would include, you know, the Lion King in that. Is that, like, the thing that can be hard in adulthood is that you can feel that a fairy tale only functions as something to, like, a warning or a disappointment. Cause it's like, wait, but, like, the jafar of my life didn't get stopped. The scar of my life, of my country, like, didn't get thrown off the cliff or whatever. Like, they're sitting on the. On the chair. They're sitting on the throne, whatever. But I think that that can actually be a distraction from the other thing about fairy tales or archetypes, which is like, they're a template for us to compare ourselves to. They're not just like an outcome or sort of an immature, shallow warning. It's like they're really useful. They're really, really useful because you don't get so scared, like having to really think about your own life. You know, you don't short circuit or get overwhelmed. But if you place of yourself and you look, then you're like, oh, I guess I do see a lot of stuff. I do see a lot of similarities. And then you have to do the more difficult work of figuring out how to turn in a new direction. But if you do turn in a new direction, you shouldn't go in a big yellow bumblebee carriage. Bumblebee carriage. Because. And even if you do that, don't get out of the fucking carriage, man. Stay inside, right?
- [46:09]
Ed Helms
Just stay, keep your head inside.
- [46:12]
Jenny Slate
Stay inside.
- [46:12]
Ed Helms
Go as fast as you can, change those horses and go as fast as you can. Jenny Slate, you're amazing and such a delight. Thanks so much for coming on Snafu.
- [46:22]
Jenny Slate
Thanks for having me. I loved this.
- [46:25]
Ed Helms
Snafu is a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post production and creative support from Good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helm, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gossen and the Collected Works legal review from Dan Welch Walsh, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horne, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, the Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to Snafu Book. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
- [47:43]
Josh Zieman
A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now listen for free on the iHeartRadio app.
- [48:09]
Ed Helms
Apple Podcasts.
- [48:10]
Josh Zieman
Wherever you get your podcasts, this is an iHeart podcast.
- [48:15]
Jenny Slate
Guaranteed Human.