Kelly Corrigan (3:16)

Hello, Ed Helms.

Ed Helms (3:18)

So glad to have you here today.

Kelly Corrigan (3:20)

I'm delighted to be here. I'm really flattered. Thank you.

Ed Helms (3:23)

Oh, amen. We met a few years back. Back. And I have to say, as soon as I met you, I was like, oh, this is a friend. Like, I. I've met a friend.

Kelly Corrigan (3:31)

That's what I said when I called my husband. I said, you know who I spend a lot of time with today? Ed Helms. And he's like, ed Helms? Like from the office, from the hangover. Ed Helms. I'm like, yeah. And I said, I gotta tell you, like, I have a feeling I'm gonna know him for a long time. Oh, I don't know. I don't know what note we started on, but there was something about the very first conversation we had that was much deeper and better than most first interactions.

Ed Helms (3:59)

Amen. Yeah, you're like. You called your husband and you're like, he's way less annoying than Andy Bernard.

Kelly Corrigan (4:05)

He didn't sing for me.

Ed Helms (4:07)

He's actually. He's kind of normal.

Kelly Corrigan (4:09)

Yeah.

Ed Helms (4:10)

Kelly Gorrigan Wonders is a phenomenal podcast, which I highly recommend. You're five years in, over 700 episodes. The format of the show, it's basically a masterclass in human curiosity, in exploring what makes us tick, what we fear and love and how we cope. And I'm just curious, after all of that deep listening, do you feel any closer to the secret of living a good life? Or is there anything like some crazy counterintuitive revelation about the human condition that you've landed on?

Kelly Corrigan (4:46)

More that sometimes when you're listening to someone, a guest on the show, they synthesize things in such a memorable way that it's almost like I've sort of known this. I've sort of intuited this my whole life, but now you just put the words on it. So two that come to mind are this. We had this neuroscientist on named Lisa Feldman Barrett. She's in the top 1% scientists cited worldwide in any discipline. So she's really respected. And she has a great book called How Emotions are Made. And that's what we were talking about. And the line she said was, the best thing for a human central nervous system is another human central nervous system. And the worst thing for a human central nervous system is another human central nervous system. So pick your human central nervous systems wisely.

Ed Helms (5:38)

Right.

Kelly Corrigan (5:40)

And that's the feeling that you get. I mean, that's what happened when we first met, really, is my central nervous system and your central nervous system kind of rubbed up against each other and it was like, oh, this is a good.

Ed Helms (5:48)

Yeah, but that's a lot of pressure when you're like, on the life partner choices. That's like, oh, geez, I better get this right.

Kelly Corrigan (5:56)

Well, I mean, this other guest said that we're an average of the five people we spend the most time with. And so that's sort of a related thought. And then this other guest said that listening is so close to love that most people can't tell the difference.

Reese's Announcer (6:11)

Wow.

Kelly Corrigan (6:12)

And so if you kind of glue those all together, you get some clarity about, like, who you're looking for out there, and you're looking for people who can be still, who can listen, who can take it in. And that's the central nervous system that's going to work for you, and that's the central nervous system that's going to make you better.

Ed Helms (6:33)

I love that because I've always felt that profound insights are things that we hear that were like, these aha moments. They feel like aha moments. Right? They feel like things that like, oh, my God, what a revelation. I now understand that better. But you're really just. It's actually just affirming something that you already felt. The only reason it's an aha moment is because you know that it's true the second you hear it, because it resonates with something already in you. And I just. I love that because it speaks to this, like, kind of like grand human intuition that we all share and that we all could be. We all understand these fundamental truths.

Kelly Corrigan (7:13)

Yes. And that intuition is being developed and honed by knowledge. Don't you feel from podcasting that you're just full of so much more information to draw from? Like, I feel like my inputs in the last five years have gone through the roof.

Ed Helms (7:28)

I love that podcasting has emerged as such a vital medium in our culture now because it feels like an antidote to social media. It feels like an antidote to all of the. The just, like, crazy, flashy, quick, disposable stuff. Yes, to your point. It has provided a great scaffolding for my curiosity and connection with so many cool people. Like yourself. All right. Are you ready to snafu Kelly Corrigan?

Kelly Corrigan (7:58)

I cannot wait to snafu. I've been waiting to snafu all day.

Ed Helms (8:06)

So you've probably heard the phrase the fog of war. It's a perfect metaphor. The chaos and confusion and split second decisions made with bad information. But in today's story, that fog wasn't just metaphorical, it was quite literal. We're heading back to World War II and to one of history's most baffling military mix ups, Operation Cottage. I'm assuming you've never heard of this.

Kelly Corrigan (8:33)

Never.

Ed Helms (8:33)

It was actually a giant operation in the Pacific theater, but it was. Is largely forgotten to popular memory. Kelly, you may not seem like the obvious co pilot for a war story.

Kelly Corrigan (8:45)

Here, how this got matched to me.

Ed Helms (8:48)

Especially one this gloriously botched, but I actually think you're perfect for it because your superpower is bringing empathy and curiosity to human folly and finding sort of the human through line when things go sideways. And let's just say this story is going to give you a lot to work with. Okay, so we begin in 1942 when the British army pitched General Eisenhower on a bold idea. A joint American Canadian commando unit trained in the specialized skills needed to fight in extreme cold. Why? Because they wanted to hit some strategic targets in Nazi occupied Norway. And as we all know, Norway is quite Chile, they're saying. I also, I just want to point out how nice it is to sort of remember America and Canada teaming up together and being just sort of like rowdy neighbors getting in trouble. Yeah, right. And by the way, it's worth pointing out that Canada does not get enough credit for its role in World War II. They were a powerhouse, like cranking out weapons and gear and supplies and munitions for the Allied forces. So way to go Canada. We, we love you up there. So Eisenhower was very into this idea and he tapped Lieutenant Colonel Robert T. Frederick to train and lead what became named the 1st Special Service Force. Frederick handpicked lumberjacks, miners, hunters, anyone who could survive the rigorous training in a Montana winter and still smile about it. They trained in freezing temperatures, climbed cliffs at night, and learned to ski with £50 packs. These guys were basically human Sasquatches trained in war fighting.

Kelly Corrigan (10:40)

I haven't thought about Sasquatch in some time. That's fantastic.

Ed Helms (10:45)

You're. You're a Montana gal, right? You spend a lot of time there.

Kelly Corrigan (10:49)

I know. I was wondering if you're giving me a little hat tip on that Montana thing. Yeah, we live more than half the year In Montana, in Bozeman.

Ed Helms (10:56)

And my family spends a ton of time in Idaho, where we have a lot of family, so we know these Rocky Mountain badass types. Does this describe you at all? Are you. Are you, like, an outdoorsy bit, Ed?

Kelly Corrigan (11:10)

No, in fact, I have. I have a word of the year every year where it's like, I'm trying to keep growing. You know, we don't want to stagnate. And the one year my word was hearty, and it just meant, like, you know, embrace opportunities for hardiness. Because people in Montana honestly are, you know, like, it was minus 37 degrees once in the. In the five years that we've lived there.

Ed Helms (11:38)

Wow.

Kelly Corrigan (11:39)

Huh? And people still wanted to, like, meet up. Oh, that's not going to happen for me. Like, I'm not opening the front door.

Ed Helms (11:48)

That's hardy.

Kelly Corrigan (11:49)

Bleeding out on the street in front of me. Like, I'm so sorry. Through the window.

Ed Helms (11:54)

And if you inhale too quickly, like, you get a lung infection from frozen.

Kelly Corrigan (12:00)

So, no, I am not hearty at all.

Ed Helms (12:02)

All right, so this special unit is training in Montana, and the Norway plan collapses. Turns out it was a logistical nightmare, and Allied priorities were shifting fast. So what was this badass new outfit to do? Well, fate would take them to another frosty theater of war. The Aleutian Islands. Do you know anything about the Aleutian Islands?

Kelly Corrigan (12:27)

I do not.

Ed Helms (12:28)

The Aleutians are that long, sort of ragged tale of islands that stretch nearly a thousand miles between Alaska and Russia. It's that little. The beard of the sort of face that is Alaska. It's kind of what separates the Pacific Ocean from the Bering Sea. And they're home to the Aleut people who've lived there for millennia, fishing, hunting those brutal waters since long before the emergence of nation states and world wars, of course.

Kelly Corrigan (12:59)

Do we know how many Aleut people there are? Or were?

Ed Helms (13:03)

The current population of the Aleut people is estimated to be around 15,000 across the United States and Russia, with the majority living in Alaska. So they obviously live there and carve out a living. But for outsiders, these islands are a very punishing place. Jagged volcanic rock surrounded by frigid ocean, broken up by vast stretches of soggy tundra called muskeg, which is basically nature's kind of like frozen wet sponge. Add in relentless rain, near constant fog, and temperatures that hover just above freezing, and you've got one of the most brutal landscapes that the US has to offer. It's beautiful, but absolutely out to get you.

Kelly Corrigan (13:44)

Bless the elites.

Ed Helms (13:46)

I know, right? Well, Regardless of the unforgiving landscape, the Aleutian Islands were still American territory. So when Japanese forces started snatching them up in June of 1942 to build airfields and submarine bases, let's just say we were not amused. It might be a frozen hellscape, but it's our frozen hellscape, damn it. And by the way, hold on a second. Don't we happen to have a special team of soldiers trained specifically for frozen hellscapes? Why, yes, Colonel Frederick, get your fancy new First Special Service Force out there and take our dang foggy islands back.

Kelly Corrigan (14:25)

Team Sasquatch.

Ed Helms (14:26)

Yeah, you're on, Colonel Frederick. And the. And the 1st Special Service Force actually missed the first World War II battle in the Aleutians, which was the Battle of Attu, another island, and that had been a very rough one. There were less than 3,000 Japanese troops on the island of Attu. But it took American troops three weeks to fight through the muddy bogs and capture the Japanese defenses up on the mossy ridges. And when it was all said and done, the US lost 549 soldiers with total casualties approaching 4,000. This is a lot of people and action going on in a very remote place. And I think that's also part of what sort of contributes to its being more lost to our cultural memory.

Kelly Corrigan (15:16)

Do you ever feel like it's just the most insane way to solve a problem? I mean, it's just so insane whenever you get like a 30,000 foot view of war. We've all acclimated to the idea of it, obviously, as we should, since it's always been here and may always be with us. But every now and then, if I come to it fresh again, I'm like, wait a minute. So these countries have a problem and the only way they can figure out how to solve it is to take their 18 year olds and put them against our 18 year olds and see who kills the most. That's insane. That's so depressing.

Ed Helms (15:52)

It is, it is. And it often feels like one side sort of forces the hand of the other side because it becomes like an existential threat for one party. I also find it fascinating the kind of. Obviously World War II was so literally a world war, and this is such a great example of something so far from the European theater. We're up, way up in Alaska, in, in what feels like the most remote place ever. But the Japanese saw serious strategic possibilities in putting little bases on these, on these, on this archipelago. And the Americans were just like, no, we have to stomp this out.

Kelly Corrigan (16:38)

My God, the elites must have been like, really, like, no one has ever come here. We have had this strip of land.

Ed Helms (16:45)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (16:46)

For thousands of years and now you're just going to destroy it all.

Ed Helms (16:49)

Yeah. And a number of the indigenous population were captured by Japanese as Americans and killed. Of course, they were very much sort of caught in the crossfire, unfortunately.

Kelly Corrigan (17:03)

I wonder if they felt American.

Ed Helms (17:06)

That's a very.

Kelly Corrigan (17:07)

You Wonder if in 1942, like, how much they even knew about the context of it. Like it was media reaching them, Were they listening to radios.

Ed Helms (17:16)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (17:16)

The paper reaching them. Or was it like this just shocking appearance of modern insanity.

Ed Helms (17:25)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (17:26)

In their beautiful, frigid.

Ed Helms (17:28)

I would imagine. I mean, some of them were brought back to Japan as prisoners of war and I would imagine they're just like, what, what do I have to do with this?

Kelly Corrigan (17:39)

Right. Minding my own business, getting some from this whale. And now it's wild. Yeah.

Ed Helms (17:49)

So that was the Battle of Attu. On the next Aleutian island called Kiska. The radio signals, campfires and Bunkers detected by US reconnaissance indicated as many as 10,000 Japanese troops stationed there to guard their airfield and submarine base. The US leaders had learned a very hard lesson taking Attu. So for Kiska, they knew they needed a new approach. This time it was going to be a massive operation. Over 30,000 troops, 100 warships and 100 aircraft converging on a single fog shrouded island. And at the tip of the Spear, of course, was Colonel Robert Frederick's crew, now proudly known as Freddy's Fighters. And now, for some reason, this entire operation was named Operation Cottage. I don't know why. How do they come up with these things?

Kelly Corrigan (18:46)

I don't know.

Ed Helms (18:47)

Operation Cottage kicked off with two solid weeks of bombing the ever loving dingus out of this island. American and Canadian pilots dove through the fog at dangerously low altitudes and pounded Kiska with bombs. Next was the ground assault. Colonel Frederick's elite commandos were were to slip ashore under cover of darkness, secure the beaches and clear the way for the throngs of infantry waiting just offshore. It takes a little, a little something special to be these like, tip of the Spear commandos. Right.

Kelly Corrigan (19:21)

Unbelievable. God bless them.

Ed Helms (19:23)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (19:25)

I mean, to think that they were lumberjacks and hunters like that. They were chosen for their tolerance of temperature, air temperature, like.

Ed Helms (19:33)

Well, yeah, just hardship, basically.

Kelly Corrigan (19:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed Helms (19:36)

Outdoor hardship. And also just, just be like, hey, you're going in first. Like, there's no infrastructure. You're setting it up right. You're doing the thing. I just, I think that's so incredible. And it's so funny to me when I think back on my younger self as like a 16, 17 year old. I literally thought. And I was like, I think I could be a Navy seal like this. I was a varsity swimmer. I was captain of my swim team. I loved being in the water. I was like, I was incredibly physical. And I was just like, I think I could be a Navy seal. And meanwhile, my co captain on my high school swim team, went to the Naval Academy, became a Navy seal. And the more I learned about it, I just was like, I'm like, no way could I have done that at all.

Kelly Corrigan (20:30)

I just in the last year, had dinner with a Navy Seal who had retired after 30 years and was trying to acclimate.

Ed Helms (20:38)

30 years. Wow.

Kelly Corrigan (20:40)

Regular old, boring civilian life, right? And my two observations were one, he drank a lot and he drank fast. And two, that he. He had to summarize things in such a way that it was clear that there were whole years of his life that he would never be able to talk to another civilian about. And that maybe they're so close is that they're doing and seeing things that only other Navy seals see and do, of course. Thus they are so deeply bonded. My dad's best friend was a Navy seal. And what I thought a Navy SEAL was before this dinner was kind of what you thought a Navy SEAL was when you were in high school, which is like really good. Swimmers, limited view. That's like 100 criterion.

Ed Helms (21:34)

Yeah. God, it is really wild.

Kelly Corrigan (21:37)

I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. I don't even know what you've done while you've been doing that. I've been writing books and making podcasts and getting to know Ed Helms. And I don't know what you're doing out there, but, boy, our lives don't have anything in common.

Ed Helms (21:49)

Amen.

Kelly Corrigan (21:50)

Making my peaceful existence possible in some way that I'll never really get.

Ed Helms (21:56)

You are so right. That is a deep debt of gratitude we owe to all of the men and women in uniform. It's really. You're so right. And so much of what they have done and seen and experienced would probably benefit them to unpack and unload with loved ones. But it's classified. Like, they're not even allowed to talk about it.

Kelly Corrigan (22:21)

I know it's a tough setup. I'm telling you, we have to take care of the va. Like, VA hospitals need support like that. That job. We have to put great people in that work like that. We really, really. The least we could do is take excellent care of every veteran.

Ed Helms (22:38)

Right? How is this controversial? Like, come on, honestly, let's get this done.

Kelly Corrigan (22:44)

Yes, let's be right. Let's do right by people.

Ed Helms (22:48)

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Kelly Corrigan (24:18)

Hello.

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Ed Helms (25:10)

All right, let's get back to this snafu.

Kelly Corrigan (25:12)

I know, I know. Okay, we got 30,000 people. We got the fighters going in first.

Ed Helms (25:17)

Well, so that's the plan. The plan is for these, for Freddy's fighters to go in first. But something strange happened on their approach to Kiska. The fog of war rolled in, literally a very thick fog bank. With visibility so low around the islands, the Navy relied heavily on their new technology, radar. And on July 27, US ships detected unidentified radar blips, or PIPs, as they were known, about 100 miles south of Kiska and assumed that these were Japanese ships. Have you ever been stuck driving in, like, terrible fog?

Kelly Corrigan (25:55)

Yes. I used to live in San Francisco. It's crazy.

Ed Helms (25:57)

Oh, it's so terrifying.

Kelly Corrigan (25:59)

It is.

Ed Helms (26:00)

And you just feel so helpless. But these guys are going off their radar, and they just opened up a massive barrage of firepower on these radar pips for 30 minutes nonstop and notably nothing fired back. When the moon rose and the fog lifted around 2am There was nothing there. There were no ships, no enemy. Just empty ocean. As one historian put it, the only damage to the American ships had been caused by their own salvos. The Navy eventually realized they'd spent half the night shelling phantom radar echoes and gave the whole debacle a name worthy of this absurdity. The Battle of the Pips.

Kelly Corrigan (26:40)

Oh, no.

Ed Helms (26:41)

Yeah. Not to be confused with Gladys Knight and the Pips.

Kelly Corrigan (26:44)

No.

Ed Helms (26:45)

Who are Atlanta, Georgia, icons and delightful. Yes. Quite wonderful.

Kelly Corrigan (26:51)

Yes.

Ed Helms (26:52)

But we're just getting started with this snafu. Alas, at midnight on August 15, the actual invasion of Kiska began, and the problems just started happening right away. Apparently, Colonel Frederick did not realize, and I quote, the current around Kiska was outgoing, which I. I have to assume that means he just timed the tides wrong. But either way, it's just. It's. Or maybe there's a giant ocean current sort of circling it. Who knows? But some of the landing boats, they're basically in these big. These, like, inflatable boats paddling ashore for two miles of open water. And some of them made it in under an hour. Others, not so much. Frederick's own boat took nearly five hours to fight its way against the tide. And one unlucky craft, overloaded with officers and radio gear, got swept completely out to sea and had to be rescued the next morning. But at least they had the radio gear. I guess. I guess if you're that. That team that. Do you sort of. Do you blame the current, or do you just pretend like we were. We saw something over there, we were going to get those things.

Kelly Corrigan (28:02)

What do you mean? Up here? You didn't see.

Reese's Announcer (28:05)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (28:06)

Huge. It was as big as a building.

Ed Helms (28:08)

I don't know what it Was. There were radar pips everywhere.

Kelly Corrigan (28:12)

I always feel like when I hear stories like this that I would just. I'd be the first one to declare defeat. I'd be like, all right, guys, it's great.

Ed Helms (28:23)

We lost.

Kelly Corrigan (28:24)

We didn't do well. I'm gonna jump in this water and bring this thing to an end, because I just want to have the stamina.

Ed Helms (28:29)

Oh, no.

Kelly Corrigan (28:30)

In this situation. My fingers are cold. My toes are cold. I don't look good. I feel like my hair is a mess. I'm going. Love you. Tell me.

Ed Helms (28:39)

I feel like your priorities are a little off.

Kelly Corrigan (28:41)

I'm just saying I'm the survivor. If I get caught in a tree, well, or an avalanche, I will, like, claw my way. I would just be like, oh, well, it was great. Like, 58. That's, like, a lot of years. Don't worry about it.

Ed Helms (28:55)

Here's the thing. I think you would surprise yourself, really. I just have this feeling like you've got. There's something in there that would emerge. The second wave of landings was the next day. On Kiska's northern shore, the commandos ran into even more trouble. They'd been promised a flat, pebbly beach that was the recon. Easy in, easy out. Instead, they ran aground on a steep, jagged mess of volcanic rock and boulders up to 16ft high. The landing stalled instantly as men scrambled to unload gear and climb over terrain that looked nothing like the brochure. So it's safe to say confidence and morale is maybe starting to teeter a little bit.

Kelly Corrigan (29:37)

Yes.

Ed Helms (29:38)

Now, there was one upside to the botched landings, which was that no one was shooting at them, which they expected. So the Japanese guns on the island were silent as the commandos struggled ashore, soaked and exhausted. But that calm did not last. As Frederick's men pushed inland through bogs and rocky ridges, the larger landing ships unloaded wave after wave of infantry behind them. And here's where a series of tragedies starts unfolding. First, that Aleutian fog. It rolled in and just swallowed everything. Entire units disappeared in the gray. Radios failed, and no one knew who was where. Then American and Canadian troops spotted movement in the mist and opened fire, convinced they'd found the enemy. But they had not. When the smoke cleared, a dozen soldiers were dead. Casualties of a battle fought entirely against themselves. Yes.

Kelly Corrigan (30:43)

Yeah, that'd be so demoralizing.

Ed Helms (30:46)

It's a brutal one. I mean, but if you're in, you put yourself in their shoes, and they all have the lesson of the Battle of Attu, which was brutal, and. And the The Japanese fighters, of course, out there, they had a war fighting ethos called Bushido, which was sort of a descendant of the samurai discipline, where. Where like they are all in and just. They will not surrender. They will just attack and attack until basically they're.

Kelly Corrigan (31:17)

You imagine these people's bodies are. Talk about central nervous systems. I mean, it's got to be so jacked up and it's. And all your signals are failing. Like, you can't really see what you're doing. You can't really see where you're putting it down. You don't really know where anybody is. Like, the adrenaline and the cortisol. I mean, you just like a crazy physiological state to try to make a decent decision in. And then the hecticness of it and the sort of group. Think of it like, if you shoot, I'm gonna. Like, the guy next to me is gonna start shooting, then I'm gonna start shooting. And.

Ed Helms (31:52)

And you're. Yeah, this is. You are perfectly capturing the fog of war. That is what the fog of war is. It's like maybe we sit down and just have a cup of tea.

Kelly Corrigan (32:03)

I know.

Ed Helms (32:03)

And just calm our nerve. Our nervous systems are over active.

Kelly Corrigan (32:08)

Yes.

Ed Helms (32:09)

We're not making good decisions.

Kelly Corrigan (32:11)

Yes.

Ed Helms (32:11)

Let's just everyone breathe. Let's be mindful for a second. But then, of course, you instantly panic because you're like, I don't think the Japanese guys are being mindful right now. They're trying to kill us. Well, there was even more danger afoot offshore. The destroyer USS Abner Reid. Remember, there's a hundred ships in this thing. This is a massive operation. Isn't this kind of like you're like.

Kelly Corrigan (32:39)

What I'd like to see if. I mean, I'm recalling in my mind, like, those old black and white photographs where you can see 100 ships in one Eiffel in one frame.

Ed Helms (32:47)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (32:48)

I mean, 100 ships for 10,000 Japanese soldiers. That's like. That's pretty strong showing like we were ready for.

Ed Helms (32:55)

Yeah. Oh, they wanted to shut this down. This was like, we have to just close this door. So the destroyer USS Abner Reed struck a Japanese mine that no one knew was there. The Navy knew there were mines, but believed that the nearest minefield was 2,000 yards away from where the ship was. And this blast ripped the stern clean off, hurling dozens of sailors into the freezing water. 87 were killed and 47 were wounded. Many were. Were pulled from the frozen water, or freezing water, I should say. And then back on land, things are still just eerie and off Right. They're two days in now, slogging through mud and fog, and something's off. And the patrols just keep pushing deeper into Kiskas Hills. And there's no gunfire, there's no snipers, there is no resistance at all. And finally the truth starts to sink in. There are no Japanese soldiers on this island at all.

Kelly Corrigan (33:59)

No.

Ed Helms (34:00)

The enemy had vanished weeks earlier. And all they left behind were a few booby traps, some wrecked equipment, and graffiti in their abandoned bunkers mocking FDR and Churchill. 30,000 troops had stormed an empty island.

Kelly Corrigan (34:18)

Oh, God, Ed. I mean, like, of all the activity in World War II, top to bottom, from day one till the final surrender, how many? What percentage of it was something like this?

Ed Helms (34:34)

This one feels colossal. Like, like I'm sure that this is happening on a smaller scale, like every day in a war. What is clear is that the fog of war is incredibly real and present all the time. Whether or not there's literal fog, I.

Kelly Corrigan (34:50)

Don'T have an ounce of judgment over this. I'll tell you one thing not happening in my body right now is I'm not thinking, God, those idiots. I'm thinking, of course, of course. Like, I would imagine that this is the number one challenge when you're mounting these. A world war in 1942 that all kinds of situations on the ground don't match whatever your signals and indicators are giving you in advance. And all kinds of resources, including human lives, were wasted because it's just too hard to get a handle on exactly what's going on on the ground. So anyway, I'm actually a wealth of knowledge about this stuff. It turns out.

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Ed Helms (38:08)

All told, the US and Canadian forces lost 313 men, sending 30,000 men into an empty island as a failure of intelligence. The invasion of Kiska was a massive embarrassment and overall it's just an all too perfect example of the fog of war. So what actually happened? Well, remember the Battle of the Pips, it turns out, and we actually know a lot about this because after the war there were a lot of interviews with Japanese naval officers and so we actually got a very detailed account of the Japanese side of this. It turns out the night of the Battle of the Pips was the night that the Japanese Navy was evacuating all their troops off of Kiska. Some historians think those radar pips were probably Japanese submarines that had popped up as a diversion and then dove again to draw attention away from the rest of the fleet. And while the US was shooting at the Pips, the Japanese ships sailed by in the opposite direction in a super tight formation under complete radio silence. The logistics of the Japanese evacuation is also fascinating. It was an incredibly disciplined and well planned evacuation. The ships had reached Kiska, picked up all 5,000 or more of their troops and sailed away again men while the US Navy was busy shooting at phantoms.

Kelly Corrigan (39:44)

5,000 bodies is so Many bodies to move effectively and efficiently. You know what I mean? Totally whole deal. If, and if you're going like from land to sea to.

Ed Helms (39:55)

I mean I've talked about this a lot over the years. I have ADHD and, and logistics just make me crumble. Like the, like the more complex and the more people and the more things are involved in a logistical plan, the more I just like implode. I can't barely comprehend it, let alone plan it and then let alone execute it. I sort of like freeze. And so all of these like mass, like just the logistics of war are so overwhelming. It's to your point, it's crazy.

Kelly Corrigan (40:32)

And with the technology of the day, sure. It's just like I went traveled for a year when I was 25 in 1992 and I didn't have a credit card and I didn't have a cell phone and my parents didn't know what country I was in. They could not have found me. And my goal was to call once a month for 12 months. So for 29 days in a row my parents didn't know where I was and I didn't really know where I was, you know, and I didn't know where I was going next.

Ed Helms (41:07)

And it was okay with everybody.

Kelly Corrigan (41:09)

Everyone felt okay because that's all there was. And so if you think about how many ways things could go wrong with a kid traveling the world with like a paper map and that's it. And then you multiply that by 5,000 people, like how did they even say what time they were going to get on the boat? It's mind boggling. So I'm with you. I mean, I don't have ADHD that I know of, but I am not the logistics person in my life ever.

Ed Helms (41:43)

So obviously this was a huge, colossal sort of military fail. But the soldiers themselves maybe didn't mind so much because one soldier said afterwards that he felt the most horror imagining what would have happened if the Japanese forces had been there and had not abandoned the island. He said, quote, I think few realize how close to a suicidal assignment our part of the operation was. Another soldier later told reporters, quote, my reaction since I didn't have a strong death wish at age 21 was relief. American and Canadian troops spent the next few days kind of just shaking it off. They reportedly were riding around the beaches on left behind motorcycles and trucks. And I think that that part's actually relatable. Like if you're expecting to have a freezing cold battle in tundra swamps and then all of a sudden you just Have a bunch of free time and some empty jeeps. You're gonna blow off some steam, right?

Kelly Corrigan (42:54)

And you're kid. You're. You're nothing. You're kids.

Ed Helms (42:58)

You're right. These are kids. Exactly. So what became of Freddie's fighters, the 1st Special Service Force after they shook off all this fog? Well, after their unglamorous start, they were sent to Europe and became one of the most effective Allied units. They were sent to attack the Italian fascists in Southern Europe. And during the D day landings in Normandy, Freddie's fighters were knocking the Nazis out of Rome. And as for Robert Frederick himself, he was eventually promoted to brigadier general. He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross twice and got a full eight Purple Hearts for being wounded in combat, which is well done. Wild. Yeah. Supposedly, Churchill called him the greatest fighting general of all time, which is. That's. That's serious. That's a serious compliment. And he said that if the Allies had a dozen more generals like Robert Frederick, Hitler would have been beaten in 1942. That's our story. Kelly Corrigan.

Kelly Corrigan (44:02)

Let's God bless Fred.

Ed Helms (44:05)

God bless Fred. Robert Frederick.

Kelly Corrigan (44:08)

Fred.

Ed Helms (44:08)

Yeah. I just love having walked through this with you and feeling it is so easy to kind of take a kind of highfalutin, scornful approach to some of these terrible mistakes. But. But just as I suspected, you are bringing so much humanity and compassion and curiosity to the experience of these people in this crazy situation. I love that, and I appreciate that very much. And this is kind of my favorite part. Are there any sort of larger takeaways that you're feeling or that this conjures for you just in a sort of, like, grand kind of human nature context?

Kelly Corrigan (44:56)

I mean, I feel. I feel that it is imperative that we find a different way of solving these problems. It's just that the story is so insane that it. It draws attention. It draws the eye to the ludicrous nature of war as a problem solving method. Yeah, it's ludicrous. It's ludicrous to send these poor kids over to try to shoot and kill other people's poor kids. Like the generals in the room, the president's in the room. Why don't we let one leader try to kill another leader? Why do we have to do it with all these kids, like, as if they're like, if that's the way we're going to solve problems, why don't we do it with 5 on 5v5 instead of 100,000 v 100,000?

Ed Helms (45:52)

We're so thirsty for violence as A species.

Kelly Corrigan (45:56)

I know. It's really in us. It's really in us. That is another thought I was having, which is that these lumberjacks or these hunters, you wonder how difficult or conversely, how very easy it was to sell them on becoming the tip of the spear in these ungodly conditions and join Freddie's fighters. Like I. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to get a narrative going that could make these lumberjacks feel like this is their shot at heroism and saving the world and putting it in that do or die context, like that historic context of that war. You could probably get a lot of people to do a lot of things that on a different day, with a clearer head, they would say, I'm not participating in that. I'm not going to go destroy somebody's land. I'm not going to go kill somebody's kid.

Ed Helms (46:53)

Right.

Kelly Corrigan (46:54)

You can't make me do that.

Ed Helms (46:56)

Isn't there the version you're talking about where. Where the generals or the leaders just say, hey, well, let's avoid this completely again? I mean, this feels a little pie in the sky when one party does present an existential threat to your country. Like, what do you. And conversation just won't. There is no conversation with madness. Right. Like a Hitler. Hitler is just mad.

Kelly Corrigan (47:28)

Right. So if you want to go, like, if, if there is no conversation as, As a solution and you. And you feel you must go to violence, why can't we pit five people, five of our people versus five of their people. Yeah.

Ed Helms (47:46)

Or one on one, do a hundred.

Kelly Corrigan (47:47)

Thousand and a hundred thousand.

Ed Helms (47:49)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (47:49)

I mean, the destruction, like why we have to break down all these buildings, these people's apartments, and like blow up their kids cribs and send their baby formula to the high heavens with a bomb. Like, it's just, it's. It's crazy. So that was one thought I was having over and over again, which of course is totally pie in the sky. And it'll never happen. And I know that with all my heart. Sadly, the other thing I was thinking about is because of like the rousing rhetoric that you would probably have to use to get a normal person to engage like this, a normal person to take a gun and shoot another person. It must be so demoralizing when the people who talked you into this grand effort turn out to be just normal Joe Schmoes who screwed up all the logistics.

Ed Helms (48:37)

Yeah. Just imagine that, that information starting to ripple through the ranks. I mean, I'm sure there's a colossal relief. But then once that relief Kind of washes out. It's like, I gotta get out of here. What the hell? What the hell?

Kelly Corrigan (48:52)

This doesn't seem so grand anymore.

Ed Helms (48:55)

I want to just kind of raise one sort of final thought and get your take, which is the fog of war, and in particular, how the fog of war was so present in this tragic story. This is obviously a grand scale, but it's a rather poignant metaphor for an individual experience when we're in our own fog, whatever that fog is, anxiety, depression, grief, or rage or whatever fog you might find yourself in just as these soldiers wound up shooting at each other. Isn't it fascinating how we can end up fighting ourselves in trying to reach our goals and sort of shooting ourselves in the foot when we're in that fog?

Kelly Corrigan (49:52)

Yes. Yeah. I think about this a lot, and it comes up on my podcast a lot, which is that when the water's rough, sit down, don't stand up in a rocky boat. Meaning, like, when you're being flooded with cortisol, adrenaline. This is not a time to make decisions. Even when you're being flooded with the good stuff, like dopamine or serotonin.

Ed Helms (50:23)

Yeah.

Kelly Corrigan (50:24)

Not a time to make decisions. Decisions are to be made when you're at your most level and neutral. And so I would say that those sort of physiological states are mirroring this fog of war. Like that you're in your own little fog of war. Just need it be still.

Ed Helms (50:42)

Yeah. Which is so hard because in those moments, our mental wiring just wants action.

Kelly Corrigan (50:51)

It does.

Ed Helms (50:51)

It wants to solve that fog with some action.

Kelly Corrigan (50:55)

And I think that one of the gifts that I am perceiving as I get into my late 50s is I am more comfortable with unpleasant emotions, because I am absolutely sure, finally, after decades of not being so sure, I guess I am absolutely sure that no feeling is final. So I know it will dissipate. And I know that it's like kind of like me talking to myself, making stuff up. And so I just know that in not that many minutes, I'm going to feel different whether I manage the emotion or not. It just. You just can't stay in that heightened state for that long.

Ed Helms (51:41)

And that's reassuring. There's comfort in that. That fog will lift.

Kelly Corrigan (51:47)

Totally. It's just weather. In fact, weather is probably the greatest metaphor, which I guess is what you're really doing in this final beat, is that weather is the perfect metaphor for our emotions. That, like, no sunny day lasts, no rainy day lasts. The fog won't last. The fog will come back. It will be cold. It will be warm. It will be just right. It will be awful. And on and on and on. And so it goes externally and internally.

Ed Helms (52:21)

Amen. Kelly Corrigan. I feel like that's a perfect place to wrap this up. I'm so grateful that you came on and you brought it like you brought. You brought the Corrigan big time. And I really appreciate it. This was really fun.

Kelly Corrigan (52:38)

Thank you, Kelly.

Ed Helms (52:39)

Of course. Snafu is a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post production and creative support from Good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me, Ed Helms, Mike Falbow, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tori Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gossen and the Collected Works Legal review from Dan Welch, Megan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horne, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafu the Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to snafu-book.com thanks for listening and see you next week.

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