Former KGB Spy Jack Barsky

Summary

SNAFU with Ed Helms – S4E19: Former KGB Spy Jack Barski

Release Date: February 11, 2026
Guest: Jack Barski (former KGB spy)
Host: Ed Helms
Theme: A firsthand look inside Cold War espionage, ideology, and spycraft through the life and defection of Jack Barski, once a Soviet KGB “illegal” planted in the United States.

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Episode Overview

In this gripping bonus installment of SNAFU, Ed Helms interviews Jack Barski, a former KGB agent who infiltrated the US under a stolen identity in the late 1970s. The episode delves into Barski's early life in Soviet-occupied Germany, his recruitment and training by the KGB, day-to-day life as a spy in America, the paranoia of the Cold War, and the personal transformation that led him to defect and become a US citizen. Along the way, Barski offers rare insights into the mindset of Soviet intelligence and the human factors behind global paranoia and espionage blunders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Barski’s Early Life in East Germany

• Grew up in rural, Soviet-occupied Germany in poverty, though it was a “universal” poverty.
  • “I didn’t know that I was poor because everybody else was poor.” (04:47 – Jack Barski)
• Christmas persisted with pagan overtones, devoid of religion.
  • “I honestly had no idea that the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed.” (05:28 – Jack Barski)
• Education was heavily ideological: Marxism-Leninism was treated as science.
  • “There was only one truth. There was science and math, and then there was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it was a science.” (05:56 – Jack Barski)

2. Pop Culture and Perceptions of the West

• Western music, especially The Beatles, had a profound cultural impact, even under communism.
  • “It doesn’t matter how communist we were, so to speak. We all loved that music.” (07:05 – Jack Barski)
• Soviet/East German media portrayed spies as heroic, ideological figures—East German “James Bonds.”
  • Barski recalls a popular show, "The Invisible Visor," that glamorized espionage.

3. KGB Recruitment and Ideology

• Academic achievements and ambition led to Barski being noticed by the KGB.
  • “That, I believe, got the KGB to pay attention to me.” (10:45 – Jack Barski)
• The recruitment process started with opaque, indirect approaches.
  • Initial KGB contact disguised as innocuous career inquiry; Barski was unfazed and “fearless.” (12:36)
  • “I have always been fearless.” (12:36 – Jack Barski)
• Barski was a true believer in communism—an ideal candidate for the cause.

4. Spy Training in Moscow

• Training was cerebral, not violent: Morse code, radio reception, surveillance detection, and "secret writing" (covert messaging).
  • “Our weapons were supposed to be our brains.” (15:33 – Jack Barski)
• Surveillance detection routes: recognizing being followed, evasion techniques, “winning” all his test followings.
  • “If you see the same face twice within three hours, you know that you’re being followed...I won every time.” (18:00–18:05 – Barski)

5. Building a False Identity

• KGB sourced identities by using records of deceased children—Barski became “Jack Barski” after acquiring the birth certificate of a boy who died young.
  • “This is what the KGB used to steal identities. And this is what’s still being used, if possible.” (21:27–21:59 – Barski)
• Barski’s main mission: embed into American society, rise through the ranks, and eventually return as a wealthy, influential “asset” after “laundering” his identity.

6. In America: Tasks and Missions

• Conducted spot checks for KGB on military installations as part of “Operation Ryan,” the program to detect American war preparations.
  • “You are the first and only interviewer who knows exactly what that was...I was told to periodically take a look at the Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey.” (28:35 – Barski)
• Located a KGB defector under a death sentence, though no hit was attempted.
  • “They wanted me to find out where he is...I did...Neither I nor he knew who we were.” (26:33–27:47 – Barski)
• Served as a “spotter,” looking for Americans who could be recruited.

7. The Cold War Mindset – Paranoia and Misunderstanding

• Genuine paranoia about an imminent nuclear war—Soviet leaders truly feared Reagan.
  • “My interaction with my handlers in Moscow indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan.” (29:57 – Barski)
  • “There was some element of cultural misunderstanding... Andropov and the Central Committee...were really afraid of this man.” (30:26 – Barski)
• Misunderstandings (such as Ronald Reagan’s religious rhetoric) fueled Cold War brinksmanship.

8. Spycraft: Communication with Moscow

• No in-person meetings—only Morse code radio transmissions and secret-writing letters to global “convenience addresses.”
  • “There was a hard rule... communication wasn’t direct. They sent me the stuff...in Morse code.” (35:12 – Barski)
  • “Still being used. It’s significantly better than... the Internet.” (35:39 – Barski)

9. The Decision to Defect

• His disillusionment grew as he realized American society was not as the Communist ideology portrayed.
  • “The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn’t really as oppressive to the workers as I thought.” (37:02 – Barski)
• Fatherhood—love for his American-born daughter drove his ultimate break with the KGB.
  • “If I had not been in love with this little girl, I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East Germany and lived the good life...The love kept me here.” (44:56 – Barski)
• To escape, Barski lied to the KGB, claiming he had AIDS to ensure they would not recall him.
  • “My last letter, in secret writing, stated...‘I can’t come because I have HIV, AIDS.’” (41:11 – Barski)

10. Aftermath: Defection and New Identity

• KGB accepted the story and wrote him off as dead to his family.
• Barski built a new life, was eventually debriefed by the FBI, subjected to lie detector tests, opened up as a source, and became a US citizen.
  • “I had to pass a lie detector test. I passed that test. And then... seven, eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I’m as anti-communist as you can get.” (43:46 – Barski)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Communist Indoctrination:
  “Marxism-Leninism was considered a science equal to physics and chemistry and so forth.”
  — Jack Barski (05:56)

• On KGB Recruitment:
  “You could not contact the KGB. They came to me.”
  — Jack Barski (11:01)

• On Fearlessness:
  “I have always been fearless.”
  — Jack Barski (12:36)

• On First Stolen Identity:
  “The only paper that was important was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who passed away at the age of 11.”
  — Jack Barski (21:13)

• On KGB Paranoia about Reagan:
  “My interaction with my handlers in Moscow indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan…there was some element of cultural misunderstanding.”
  — Jack Barski (29:57)

• On Defection and Love:
  “Love conquers all. That’s it.”
  — Jack Barski (44:26)

• Closing Reflection:
  “If I had not been in love with this little girl, I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East Germany and lived the good life…The love kept me here.”
  — Jack Barski (44:56)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:47 – 07:05: Early life, Christmas under communism, Beatles as a cultural influence.
• 10:45 – 15:16: Academic achievements, KGB recruitment, first meeting, fearlessness.
• 15:33 – 18:05: Spy training, focus on brains over violence, surveillance detection.
• 20:59 – 24:47: Creating an American identity as “Jack Barski,” the KGB’s forgery methods.
• 26:13 – 28:04: Actual espionage operations in the US, including tracking defectors and “spotting” for recruitment.
• 28:35 – 31:34: Operation Ryan, Soviet paranoia about a US first strike, misunderstanding Reagan's rhetoric.
• 35:12 – 36:46: Communication methods—Morse code, secret writing, no in-person meets.
• 37:02 – 41:14: Rational for defecting, discovering American society, love for his daughter as the crucial turning point.
• 41:11 – 44:56: Escape plan through the AIDS ruse, “death” in the East, building a new life, full cooperation with US authorities, and reflections on what really matters.

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Tone and Style

• Friendly, candid, and often self-deprecating humor from both Ed Helms and Jack Barski.
• Barski is open, clear, and surprisingly relaxed recounting both mundane and extraordinary moments.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode offers a rare, humanizing look at Cold War espionage, showing not just the tradecraft but the psychological and personal costs of spy life. Through Barski’s journey—from indoctrinated communist to American citizen, with remarkable honesty about both the failures and follies of the KGB—the episode illustrates how love and personal experience can break through ideology and reshape a life. As Ed Helms puts it in closing, Barski’s story is nothing short of profound.

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Recommended Follow-Ups:

• Jack Barski’s memoir: Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America
• The podcast “The Agent” (about Barski’s life)

Transcript

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[Ed Helms]

Hey there SNAFU fans. It's Ed again. I mean, honestly, who else would it be, right? This is my podcast. Okay, I'm excited that today we're sharing another episode from way back when. In fact, this was one of the bonus episodes for the very first season of SNAFU all about Able Archer 83, the NATO military exercise that nearly started an actual nuclear war. If you missed it back, then go back and check it out. You're in for a treat. And in this particular episode, I get to talk to a real spy. Yeah, a real fricking spy. It was one of the highlights of my career to have this conversation. So here it is, my special episode talking to Jack Barski, former KGB spy. We get into all the Soviet era paranoia and KGB chaos during the cold War from someone who saw all of it right from the inside. This guy is quite a character. We had an incredible chat. You're not going to want to miss this one. Also, just be aware, next week we'll be back as usual. All right, enjoy. Hey, SNAFU listeners, this is your host, Ed Helms, back in your feed for another bonus episode. This one is really, really cool. If you told me a year ago that I would be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I would tell you that you're cuckoo bananas. But it actually happened. Now, over the course of our show, we got a healthy dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievsky and Reiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network of operatives all over the world, each one on their own separate mission. One of those spies was a man named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in 1978, then eventually defected from Russia and became a US citizen. Just like our pal Oleg and Reiner, Jack's story is full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists and turns. I had a chance to sit down with Jack recently and it was a really exciting conversation. He was completely transparent and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table. And he provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviet's Cold War mindset. And we even had a few chuckles. I really enjoyed this interview. I got a ton out of it and I think you will too. Hello, Jack Barski. It is a pleasure to meet you. You have an incredible story. KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade. So let's just dive right into your origin story. Tell me about growing up. Where exactly did you grow up?

[Jack Barski]

Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part of Germany. Very, very poor, very rural. I taken care of fundamentally, we had enough food. Maybe 50% was potato based, but I can't remember ever having been hungry. And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody else was poor.

[Ed Helms]

Sure.

[Jack Barski]

So you got. At Christmas time, you got a bunch of presents and there was only one that you really wanted. The rest of it was underwear and socks.

[Ed Helms]

Wait a minute. Christmas time?

[Jack Barski]

Oh, yeah.

[Ed Helms]

How did you have Christmas? There's no that you didn't. No one believed in God.

[Jack Barski]

No. But you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition.

[Ed Helms]

Sure. Okay.

[Jack Barski]

And in the communist countries, that was the tradition that was kept. I honestly had no idea that the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, that's pretty extreme.

[Jack Barski]

Oh yeah.

[Ed Helms]

So you didn't get a lot of. In your education growing up, you weren't learning about other ideas.

[Jack Barski]

They were teaching us the wisdom. And there was only one truth. There was science and math, and then there was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it was a science. Marxism, Leninism was considered a science equal to physics and chemistry and so forth.

[Ed Helms]

Wow, that is fascinating.

[Jack Barski]

If you grow into that kind of an environment, what are you going to do? You don't know anything else. There's other opinions. The only thing that went across borders was shortwave radio, but we didn't listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll.

[Ed Helms]

Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening to at that time?

[Jack Barski]

Initially, it was a couple of singers, Americans who sang in German. Gus Backus and Bill Ramsey. Huh. That was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a band called the Beatles.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, they'll change your life, the Beatles.

[Jack Barski]

And it doesn't matter how communist we were, so to speak. We all loved that music.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, wow. This is. This is fascinating. I wanted to talk about the pop culture culture that you were absorbing. Not just western things, but things coming out of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know, the spy stories have always been such a rich part of cinematic storytelling. And. And so what were you seeing at the time? And did you have a perception of, like. Of the spy life?

[Jack Barski]

And fundamentally, there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily to music that came out of the West. West Germany and England and the United States. But the Communist art wasn't so bad. There were, like, some really good movies. There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. There was a series that was called the Invisible Visor. It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany to find Nazis after World War II and make sure that these Nazis would meet the fate that they deserved. And eventually he rose up in West German government and did a lot of interesting things. He was all over the world. You know, he was driving fast cars. He was our James Bond. Okay. And he got the woman. And this is what I thought would. What espionage would be like. Obviously, it was highly ideological, fighting against the bad capitalists. Sure, sure. So. But. But it nevertheless was well done, artistically speaking.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively and artistically for so much of what was coming out of the Soviet Union at that time. So let's transition from some of these cultural considerations into you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school. At what point does, you know an actual spy life start to coalesce for you?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, that took a while. So, elementary school, I was just playing along, you know, I didn't care much. And in high school, I was still playing around, you know, but I became a little more ambitious, and I managed to have nothing but A's on my last report card. And so that. That allowed me to pretty much have my pick, what university to go to. I aced university as well. But here's a big but. It's not because I was the smartest guy, because I was clever. There were a couple of guys, at least, that were smarter than me, but. But they didn't know how to manipulate this.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. Okay, interesting. So you're kind of. It's not just your intellect, it's sort of your. Your savvy.

[Jack Barski]

Exactly. Sort of street smarts. At one point in my third year, there was a national scholarship, and I suggested that I be submitted. And the fellow who wrote the application, he showed it to me. I said, that's not going to work. I wrote my own application, and I was awarded that scholarship. And that, I believe, got the KGB to pay attention to me.

[Ed Helms]

That's it. That was the sort of opening volley that put you on the KGB's radar?

[Jack Barski]

I believe so. Because you couldn't. If you want to work for the CIA, you can just, you know, sure.

[Ed Helms]

Contact them and go online, fill out an application.

[Jack Barski]

There was no such thing. You could not contact the kgb. They came to me.

[Ed Helms]

So you're. You're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate.

[Jack Barski]

Oh, yeah.

[Ed Helms]

And. And. And you think that's what actually put you on the KGB's radar? What was your first point of contact?

[Jack Barski]

So it was on a Saturday afternoon. I was sitting in my dorm room, and I get a knock on the door. So in comes a short man who was not likable.

[Ed Helms]

Even just looking at him, it was not James Bond.

[Jack Barski]

No. He was German. And he said, hey, are you Albrecht Ditterich? I said, yes, I am. Oh, I just want to talk with you about your plans after you graduate. That was the dumbest cover story in that I've ever heard in my entire life. Because in those days, when you. When you were done, you were assigned.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about what you want to do?

[Jack Barski]

No, no.

[Ed Helms]

That's how this guy started the conversation.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

So you knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up?

[Jack Barski]

Yes. He pretended to be an employee of the. The biggest company in town, but I thought he was German. I thought he was East German secret police. Stasi.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway?

[Jack Barski]

No. No, not. Nope.

[Ed Helms]

I mean, I would think. I would think a Stasi knocking on your door might rattle anybody.

[Jack Barski]

I have always been fearless.

[Ed Helms]

Interesting. Okay, so that is a different. That's a difference between you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution. And you're fearless. Yeah, fearless.

[Jack Barski]

Well, I'm afraid of my wife, but generally I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. So this guy was lying to me. And we were talking a little bit for a while, and then after about 10, 15 minutes, he changed his tune. He says, you know what? I gotta confess, I'm not really from that company. I'm from the government. He said, the government?

[Ed Helms]

And you're like, I know.

[Jack Barski]

In my mind I was thinking maybe I should ask him what part of the government. But I didn't. So I said, yeah, okay. And he said, can you imagine one day working for the government?

[Ed Helms]

He didn't ask you to join the KGB right now?

[Jack Barski]

No, no, no.

[Ed Helms]

He's still sussing you out.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the most expensive restaurant in town. And he said, we're going to meet there. And when I get to the table, there was another fellow sitting there and this guy who never introduced himself said, by the way, this is Herman. We're working with our Soviet comrades.

[Ed Helms]

Wow, this is exciting, right?

[Jack Barski]

Oh, yeah, man.

[Ed Helms]

Third year in college and the KGB is, is taking you to a fancy restaurant.

[Jack Barski]

Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most powerful organization on the planet. You know, there was a KGB mythology.

[Ed Helms]

And philosophically, right now, where are you with regards to the Communist Party?

[Jack Barski]

I was a member of the party. I was very active in the youth organization at university.

[Ed Helms]

And was this because it was just convenient to do that or were you a true believer?

[Jack Barski]

I was a true believer.

[Ed Helms]

True believer, absolutely.

[Jack Barski]

100.

[Ed Helms]

So that makes the KGB super excited.

[Jack Barski]

Oh, my God, Yes.

[Ed Helms]

Wow.

[Jack Barski]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

And okay, so you meet with Herman. Herman says.

[Jack Barski]

Let'S, let's, let's meet again.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, okay.

[Jack Barski]

Okay.

[Ed Helms]

So it's just lots of meetings.

[Jack Barski]

It was a very slow ramp up initially. I would meet with him in his car sort of at the edge of town. After some maybe three, four months, he must have determined that I was a really good candidate.

[Ed Helms]

Wow. Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think they want me to be capable of extreme violence or, you know, that spying involved really, you know, like, scary altercations, weaponry and close quarters combat and all that? Sort of nothing?

[Jack Barski]

Nope. Nope. All the people that I worked with, both in East Germany and then during my time in Moscow, were gentlemen, Our weapons were supposed to be our brains.

[Ed Helms]

So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are you learning? What kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering the picture here.

[Jack Barski]

You'd be surprised. The very first document they gave me to read was a book about the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

[Ed Helms]

Okay. Just more indoctrination.

[Jack Barski]

Oh, you bet. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting out with a shortwave radio reception, Morse code. And then I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnated with a. Just a trace of a chemical. The way to do this right, I had to be really, really careful. I had to make sure that everything was totally clean. If you didn't know what you were looking for, what chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, wow, that's cool. So. So you're getting some of these. These skills. What was it? Surveillance detection or something?

[Jack Barski]

Yes, surveillance detection route. This is. This is actually an internationally recognized abbrev. The FBI uses it the same way. So this is what you do. Counterintelligence need to follow you when you're out and about. And so the idea was that you have to have a fictitious reason to go there, there, and there, department stores, going to a movie and buying a ticket. And the whole idea is if counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However, there's no proof. If you see the same face twice within three hours, you know that you're being followed. I had really an extensive training in Moscow, where I, we. We practice this about a. A dozen times. And sometimes I had nobody following me, and sometimes I had a whole team following me. And it was a competition, and the.

[Ed Helms]

Test was to figure out who was following you.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. I won every time.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, nice.

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[Ed Helms]

The thing where someone.

[Jack Barski]

Crinkles tissue and whispers at you. Hello. Look, I'm not here to judge what you listen to. I'm here to judge you for not eating Reese's while you listen to it. Reese's? Ashley, go back to the nature. Sounds nice. That's really nice.

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[Ed Helms]

So you've got some serious skills now. You're getting training in Moscow. So let's move on to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in East Germany. But to get to the United States, you needed an American identity. How did all that go down?

[Jack Barski]

Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation that allowed me to live in the United States. Right. There was only one paper that was important. It was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who passed away at the age of 11. This. This is what, this is what the KGB used to steal identities. And this is what's still being used, if possible.

[Ed Helms]

Wow. Jack Barski was a real. There was like a birth record then and, and a Birth certificate?

[Jack Barski]

Yes. One of those diplomats who worked in Washington D.C. he was wandering on, on around in cemeteries and he found the tombstone. Yeah, tombstone, Right. And it says here, Jack Barski, born 1944, passed away in 1955.

[Ed Helms]

And you want a child because then there's. They don't have a life of, of, of records. And all of the evidence of that.

[Jack Barski]

That's correct.

[Ed Helms]

Wow, that's kind of dark.

[Jack Barski]

And, and though in those days, in those days it was really easy to get a birth certificate, you didn't have to show why you were entitled to get it. You, all you had to do is, you know, fill out a form and then pay the fee.

[Ed Helms]

So active agents kind of procured your papers.

[Jack Barski]

That's correct.

[Ed Helms]

And then you. And then you had that to travel with.

[Jack Barski]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

So, so how did they decide, did they have a conversation with you? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go?

[Jack Barski]

This was, there was never really well constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know, you just go and then you do good things. Ah.

[Ed Helms]

So basically the assignment is just go.

[Jack Barski]

And be curious, go and find your way up in society. There was a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would have become a really, really dangerous agent. The plan was for me to get all the documentation that you need to operate in the United States, work there, including a passport. And with that passport, they were going to send me back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria or Switzerland. And then they would have had me open some kind of a company to establish a company, and they would funnel a lot of money into that company. So within two years, I would go back to the United States a millionaire.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, that's nice. Well, what happened to this is a great plan, you and, and you get to be a millionaire? Yeah, that's a hell of a plan.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, I failed. I was able. When, when I get got to the United States with that birth certificate, I was able to get a Social Security card. I was able to get a driver's license. So I was functional in the United States. But the journey was really well planned, except for the very last leg of the trip. The way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back to Moscow. So from Moscow, I took a plane, I went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna, neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a KGB agent, diplomat, who gave me a second forged passport. And I gave him back the first one that I used. From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we are in NATO territory. Right. But I'M already, like, twice removed. And there I got a Canadian passport.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, and that gets you into where. Where do you go from there?

[Jack Barski]

From. From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and in Mexico City, I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back to Toronto with a stopover in Chicago. So they had me d plane and at o'. Hare, and. And that's when the trouble started. I mean, I should. I should have been busted right then and there because the KGB had nobody. There were no Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago, anything.

[Ed Helms]

Wow. Okay, so when you first stepped off that plane at Chicago o', Hare, and you're sit. You're suddenly you're walking on American soil, is that. That must have been an incredible rush.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. Particularly once I got through customs and immigration. They say, yes, I did it. Yeah, but. But before that, it was like anxiety. Yeah, a lot of it.

[Ed Helms]

Okay. I would imagine. I mean, I would be crippled with fear at this point, but you being fearless, get through it. Okay. So you get to New York City eventually. I'm so curious. You know, we talked a little bit about your assignment, but, like, what the hell are you doing day to day?

[Jack Barski]

I had some tasks. There were a couple of times where they actually asked me to do something really important. One of them was to find an ex KGB agent who was actually an assassin who had defected and was under a death sentence. And they wanted me to find out where he is.

[Ed Helms]

Did you find him?

[Jack Barski]

Yes, I did. Whoa.

[Ed Helms]

And did they send someone after him?

[Jack Barski]

They didn't, thank God. It's. It's another one of those movie scenes. I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see if he's still teaching at the University of California.

[Ed Helms]

Wait, an assassin had gotten a job as a. As a college professor?

[Jack Barski]

Yes. Well, yeah, he defected, you know, but.

[Ed Helms]

Still, that's a pretty different skill set.

[Jack Barski]

Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart to get away with what they're doing. Right.

[Ed Helms]

So, yeah.

[Jack Barski]

So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the University of California, Bernardino. The last door on the left, there's a nameplate that says Nikolai Kaklov. That's the guy I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this nameplate, the door opens and he comes out. This is this, like, delicious situation where an ex KGB agent who is under a death sentence is looking at a KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor he knew who we were. I found out much later he died from natural causes.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, right. Yeah, right.

[Jack Barski]

I was also asked to operate As a spotter, you know, when the KGB had a methodology, how to recruit people, first you got a spotter who looks, who looks for talent.

[Ed Helms]

So are you looking for people to, to flip Americans who might work for the kgb?

[Jack Barski]

Okay, yes.

[Ed Helms]

So at the time, the Soviet Union has this, this, this kind of research process called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener. Operation Ryan was this kind of insane thing where spies all over the world were, were asked to just give the Soviet Union confirmation that America was going to start a nuclear war, basically.

[Jack Barski]

You are the first and only interviewer who knows exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey.

[Ed Helms]

To just go look at it or what?

[Jack Barski]

Look at, see if I, if I see, if I see signs of preparation for war. Yes. I was also trained to recognize, based on the silhouette, what kind of ships are out there.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, wow.

[Jack Barski]

And, you know, I had no idea I was part of that, that program.

[Ed Helms]

But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing as possible as possible war preparations.

[Jack Barski]

I never saw anything out of the ordinary. And in fact, there was no preparation for war. But, you know, the fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov, was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over weather and drop off, actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war. Or if they just wanted us to think they believed that.

[Jack Barski]

No, I believe my interaction with my handlers in Moscow indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan. And there was some element of cultural misunderstanding because Reagan was a believing Christian and he, he sometimes quoted the Bible, particularly the book of Revelation, the scariest.

[Ed Helms]

Book of the Bible.

[Jack Barski]

Right. So in a communist country, nobody had any kind of idea, particularly the ones in the decision makers. They didn't have context as to what, when you quote the Bible, what that means. And clearly Ronald Reagan was not. He didn't think. He was appointed to accelerate the end of the world. But you know, Andropov and, you know, the Central Committee of the Party, they were really afraid of this man.

[Ed Helms]

They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world. Is that what you're saying?

[Jack Barski]

He wanted to start a war and the war would have been the end of the world?

[Ed Helms]

Yes, well, of course, of course it would have been Armageddon. But what, how do you know that? What signals were you getting that, that Andropov really thought Reagan wanted to start a war.

[Jack Barski]

Obviously, I never had a conversation with Andropov, but I had conversation with people that were in his organization and they were all like, deathly afraid of Ronald Reagan.

[Ed Helms]

Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. And are you aware of the Abel Archer 83 military exercise that was happening? Right?

[Jack Barski]

I wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I know what you're talking about. During the Cold War, we came close three, four times to a nuclear exchange and every time it was based on a misunderstanding. And that is what I'm worried about right now with Russia being on edge and you know, mistakes can be made and you know, you have one mistaken launch, it's over.

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[Jack Barski]

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[Ed Helms]

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[Jack Barski]

Here's a quick podcast for all you true crime fans. The case of the Missing Reeses. It was me at the store with my mouth motive. Um, they're Reese's. What was I gonna do? Stop myself? Tune in next time to see if I do it again. Spoiler. I will. Wow, that had everything Reese's Suspense Reese's.

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[Ed Helms]

So I want to back up a little bit. You had a few specific tasks, but you also had this kind of grand, larger mission that was really up to you. It sounds like. How were you communicating with Moscow while you're in the United States? What were sort of your. What were some of those tricks as a lone wolf?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah. So if. If you ever watch the Americans, there are a lot of scenes where the handler of the two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There was a hard rule that you do not meet. An illegal will not meet with another agent in the country where he operates. So communication wasn't direct. It was indirect. They sent me the stuff, whatever they wanted to communicate in Morse code once a week, by the way. That's still being used. And it's. It's significantly better than using social media or the Internet because when you. When you send signals out into the ether, you know, people know where it came from, but people don't know who's actually listening to it.

[Ed Helms]

Right. And then to communicate back to Russia, what are you doing?

[Jack Barski]

Secret writing. I had what they call convenience addresses. These were collaborators with the KGB in other countries. So I would write a letter as if I knew about them. I knew anything. Said, I'm sorry, you knew, you know, you broke your leg or something like open text. And then I overlaid this with some secret writing. And then I would mail this thing, and then it would. They would know that this had to be handed over to the KGB agent.

[Ed Helms]

That's wild. Okay, so at some point during this process, you decide you don't want to be a KGB agent anymore. What happened? Where was the ideological shift? Because now you're an American and you seem to like America a lot.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, well, it was a. What I call a slow decontamination. The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't really as oppressive to the workers as I thought. Because when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, it was a nice place, and they treated us well. We got free lunch. Other than, like, you know, bad bosses and not very nice co workers, I couldn't find institutional evil Wasn't there. But. But when. When I resigned from the kgb, I. I put in my letter explicitly, I will not betray the cause. I will not betray my motherland, East Germany. And I meant that. And, you know, and then I had a career. I developed my version of the American dream. It wasn't ideological, but it. It was like, you know, I liked it here, you know, and I became what they wanted me to become. A real American. You know, I led a normal life. At one point, I became a professional. I worked as a computer programmer. And, you know, if you're a young man, you have some. You know, your hormones are still there. Right. Sure.

[Ed Helms]

Your job is inherently lonely as hell.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. So I started dating, and I. I found a really pretty young woman who was safe because he had emigrated from South America. If I had gotten close to and born American, they would have figured out, sure. Something. Something odd about this guy. She wouldn't have known. Turns out that she had immigrated, but she was actually illegal, so I helped her to become legal.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, you.

[Jack Barski]

You know, you married her? I married her. And so in 1987, my daughter was born. And, you know, this is. I don't know. Do you have. Do you have any. Any girls?

[Ed Helms]

I do have two girls.

[Jack Barski]

Okay. Don't you love them? Didn't you love them like crazy when they grew up?

[Ed Helms]

They're. Well, they're still quite little. And I will say, oh, it is a form of love that I never even contemplated before.

[Jack Barski]

Exactly.

[Ed Helms]

So deep. It is so profound.

[Jack Barski]

And. And that is exactly what happened to me. I mean, this. This girl was and still is extremely pretty. Huge eyes, and I mean, just like, just beautiful. And when she was 18 months old, the KGB said, sent me an urgent message that I should return to the Soviet Union because I was about to be arrested by the FBI. It was a red herring. It wasn't true, but they believed it. And obviously I should have believed it too. Right.

[Ed Helms]

And you couldn't bring the child back to Russia with you?

[Jack Barski]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I kept the fact that I married this woman.

[Ed Helms]

Oh.

[Jack Barski]

And I didn't tell you were keeping.

[Ed Helms]

Secrets from the kgb. Oh, wow.

[Jack Barski]

Of course.

[Ed Helms]

This is. You really are fearless. Your love for your daughter is what kept you in the United States. And explain to me why you don't just say, I'll just keep being a spy in the United States. You actually want to leave the KGB at this point?

[Jack Barski]

Well, they thought I was about to be arrested, so they wanted me back in the Soviet Union, and that forced my hand. Okay. Because I Had to tell them that I'm not coming so they wouldn't search for me. And so my last letter, in secret writing, stated the following. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm going to be careful, but I can't come because I have hiv, aids.

[Ed Helms]

Whoa. But you didn't.

[Jack Barski]

Of course I didn't.

[Ed Helms]

And so once the KGB finds out that you have AIDS or that you've said you have aids, they're terrified. They don't want you back.

[Jack Barski]

Oh, no way.

[Ed Helms]

And, okay, so now you're off the hook with the kgb. But I did.

[Jack Barski]

I didn't know this. I was hoping for it, but I actually was, 100%, because they went to my German family and told them that I. That I already died.

[Ed Helms]

Wow. So then they just forget about you?

[Jack Barski]

They did. Absolutely did. I spent about three months after I mailed that letter being very cautious, careful. Looking for FBI surveillance, looking for kgb. I was so well trained, I knew that there was nothing happening. So I told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you know what? We should start looking at moving into the suburbs and buying a house. That's when I. That was my first step to become an American. Wow.

[Ed Helms]

All right, so a million questions, but the big one is you left the kgb. Eventually, you actually became an American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you, and you became, you know, an open book to them. They then offer you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you became public, why isn't the KGB trying to kill you now?

[Jack Barski]

Well, first of all, my case is.

[Ed Helms]

Really old, but you're still a liability. I mean, you're telling these stories all about kind of Russian tradecraft and all these things. And might I add, sometimes it seems that Russian assassinations aren't just about keeping someone quiet. There's an element of vengeance there.

[Jack Barski]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

Why are you safe?

[Jack Barski]

If they had a list of, you know, priorities. I'm near the bottom.

[Ed Helms]

Got it. Okay, next question. It has been said that there is no such thing as a former KGB agent. You are now living your life very publicly and openly and transparently. But who's to say you're not still sending secret messages back to Russia? And I say it with a laugh, but it's a serious question.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah. No, you gotta trust me.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, is that right? I just have to trust you?

[Jack Barski]

Okay. All right, so here's the thing. When I was debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything that I could possibly remember on them, the last thing they had me do is I had to pass a lie Detector test. I passed that test. And then I spent I don't know how many years, but seven, eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I'm as anti communist as you can get.

[Ed Helms]

What is Jack Barski's philosophy at this point? What have you learned from everything you've been through?

[Jack Barski]

That question was asked of me several years ago and I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but I came up with the best answer. It sounds a little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it.

[Ed Helms]

That's it.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

You know what? It does sound hokey, but it isn't. It is very profound.

[Jack Barski]

It's true. It's true. I lived it, okay? Because if I had not been in love with this little girl, I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East Germany and lived the good life. Because at the time, I had nothing but good things back there. And the love kept me here.

[Ed Helms]

Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up. And I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with your time and your life and your story and sharing all of it. Jack Barski, I really, really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

[Jack Barski]

You're welcome. Take care. Bye. Bye.

[Ed Helms]

Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. If you want to learn more about Jack's amazing life and his crazy story, check out his book, Deep My Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB spy in America. There's also a really cool podcast all about his life called the Agent. Definitely check that out. All right, this is your host, Ed helms, signing off. SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with with Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me, Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo, Andy Chugg and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode was produced and edited by Olivia Canny. Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis. Associate producer, Tori Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canney is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to Allison Cohen and Matt Aisenstadt.

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