Podcast Summary: SNAFU with Ed Helms

Episode: S4E7 – Kal Penn and the Republic of Rough and Ready

Release Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Ed Helms
Guest Co-Host: Kal Penn
Expert Guest: Richard Kreitner (journalist, historian, and author)

Overview

In this episode of SNAFU, Ed Helms teams up with actor and former White House staffer Kal Penn for a humor-laden, thoughtful look at a truly "screwed up" chapter in American history: the brief, ill-fated secession of the mining town Rough and Ready, California, in 1850. The conversation explores themes of secession, scapegoating in American politics, and the ongoing allure of breaking away—from the Gold Rush era to today's bubbling independence movements. Historian Richard Kreitner joins to discuss the legal, cultural, and political roots and realities of modern secession attempts.

Episode Structure

1. Kal Penn’s Personal ‘Snafu’ Story (03:15 – 06:43)
2. History Deep-Dive: The Republic of Rough and Ready (06:52 – 24:16)
3. Lessons and Reflections on Secession and Scapegoating (24:16 – 27:22)
4. Interview with Richard Kreitner – Modern Secession Movements (27:57 – 51:45)
5. Final Thoughts and Takeaways (46:13 – 48:25)

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kal Penn’s Snafu in the White House

• Kal Penn shares a hilarious personal story from his time as President Obama’s liaison for young Americans and AAPI communities, involving an email chain with the National Security Council about the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), inadvertently laughed at in a professional setting.
  • Quote (Kal Penn, 04:32):

  “Yo, their main terror group are the MILFs. Amazing.”

  • The story highlights the cultural awkwardness and the collision of pop culture and bureaucratic language in government settings.
  • Ed Helms jokes about Obama delivering the punchline in person.

2. The Republic of Rough and Ready: The Ultimate Secession Snafu

Gold Rush Chaos and Discontent

• 1849: Gold Rush swells California’s population—from a few hundred non-Native settlers to over 300,000.
  • Population fun fact (Ed Helms, 07:38):

  “32 million, plus or minus a Kardashian.” – Kal Penn
  “It’s 39.43 million. Give or take a Kardashian or Hemsworth or two.” – Ed Helms

• Mining town “Rough and Ready” named after General Zachary Taylor's nickname “Old Rough and Ready.”
  • On the town’s name (Ed Helms, 09:12):

  “It feels just wrapped up in kink in, in a good way.”

  • Could also be “a cowboy-themed swingers’ retreat or a monster truck rally.”
• The Foreign Miners Tax (targeted Chinese and Latin American miners, $20 monthly) introduced, sparking resentment even among US-born miners, fearing next-in-line taxation.

Scapegoating in American Politics

• Kal Penn connects 19th-century anti-immigrant scapegoating to modern politics:
  • Quote (Kal Penn, 11:15):

  “It’s easy for people who are insecure… Much harder to fix those problems.”

  • Scapegoating distracts from policy solutions and undermines productive debate.

Alcohol Ban and the Vote to Secede

• The town faces taxes and an early prohibition (70 years before national Prohibition).
• Fed up, the citizens of Rough and Ready vote to secede on April 7, 1850, forming the “Great Republic of Rough and Ready.”
  • They draft their own constitution (modeled after the US) and send “official” paperwork to DC.
  • Quote (Ed Helms, 15:13):

  “I mean, is kind of a cool flex… I wouldn’t mind if the United States was the Great Republic of Rough and Ready.”

• The celebration doesn’t last: on July 4, 1850, neighboring towns refuse to sell alcohol to “foreigners.”
  • Ed (21:15):

  “All everyone in the United States around them is like, sorry, we’re not selling to foreigners.”

• After three months, Rough and Ready votes to rejoin the US—a snafu of sovereignty.

Ongoing Town Pride

• The town (pop. 659 as of 2023) still celebrates “Secession Day” with a chili cookoff and reenactments.
  • Possible movie pitch (Ed & Kal, 23:15):

  “Can we audition for that play next year?”
  “Let’s just make this movie. This is like such a Christopher Guest…”

  • The hosts riff on turning the town’s history into a comedy film.

3. Lessons and Larger Takeaways

• Kal Penn reflects on the US as a democracy “experiment” that’s always moving forward and backward.
• Teaching hard history is a chance to show progress, not cause shame:
  • Quote (Kal Penn, 25:34):

  “We’ve come a really long way… I think the opposite of shame—we should feel proud that we’re not that way anymore.”

• Ed Helms notes the value of scrutinizing the specific “mechanics” that led to past blunders, to prevent repeating history.

4. Modern Secession Movements – Interview with Richard Kreitner

Why Does Secession Stay “in Style”?

(Kal, 28:26; Richard, 28:51)

• Modern secession surges post-2000, increasing polarization with each contested election.
  • On left, it’s “I’ll move to Canada!”; on right, it’s calls for states to literally secede.
  • Kreitner:

  “I think it really has been [around] for the last 20, 25 years…whichever side loses, threatens to secede.” (28:51)

Types of Movements & Motivations

• “Calexit” (California independence), “Texit” (Texas), “Greater Idaho” (moving Eastern Oregon counties to Idaho), Downstate Illinois, etc.
  • Some only have a handful of supporters, others (like in New Hampshire) are more serious.
• Core issues:
  • Disproportionate federal representation (e.g., California’s population vs. Senate seats, 31:02)
  • Taxation grievances and cultural identity
• The American “ethos of individualism” fuels secessions both historic and modern.
  • Ed Helms (31:15):

  “It’s also part of that sort of long held American ethos of individualism…”

The (Il)Legality of Secession

(Kal & Richard, 33:02 – 34:07)

• Supreme Court case Texas v. White (1869) deemed secession unconstitutional, but Kreitner argues its weight is more symbolic than practical today.

The Complexity and Unlikelihood of Modern Secession

• Even California or Texas leaving would be fraught:

  • The US is vastly more intertwined than in 1850 or 1861 (economically, logistically).
  • Political chaos (like an unresolved national election) is more likely to prompt a real break than a clean state-by-state vote.
  • Richard Kreitner (50:38):

  “I think the most likely way that this happens is not just on a clear blue day … I see it as happening in the context of some much larger national crisis…”

• Lesser secessionist schemes (e.g., Greater Idaho) only require state and Congressional approval, but remain highly unlikely.

  • Richard (40:00):

  “It would need the assent of both Idaho…and Oregon…and then the United States Congress would also need to sign on. So it’s pretty far fetched. It’s unlikely, but not inconceivable.”

• Both guests agree that distrust in institutions, voter alienation, and polarization have never been higher since the Civil War era.

  • Ed on disconnect and lawmaking:

    “A Princeton study showed that public sentiment… had a statistically nonexistent effect on whether or not that policy would become a law.” (38:25)

5. Reflections on Secession and the Meaning of the US

• Ed Helms: The US remains special and worth preserving, despite broken institutions.
  • “Don’t give up on the United States. There’s something really incredible and special here…” (46:13)
• Richard Kreitner:
  • Cites the Declaration of Independence’s right to alter or abolish a failing government as a last resort, not a first impulse.
  • Not only Confederates—abolitionists, radicals—have considered secession in American history.
  • (47:22):

  “Keep your powder dry…there are worse things than a potential breakup… which would be all of us falling under some kind of fascist dictatorship.”

• Both note the miracle and beauty of the US’s diversity—geographic, political, cultural.
• Final thoughts: Political boundaries may never perfectly align with cultural realities, and learning from our past SNAFUs can help ensure we survive current ones.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Kal Penn (On scapegoating, 11:15):

  “If you look at what’s happening today, it’s way easier to blame immigrants for something…Way harder to fix those problems.”

• Ed Helms (On Rough and Ready’s secession, 15:13):

  “Kind of a cool flex. I…wouldn’t mind if the United States was the Great Republic of Rough and Ready.”

• Kal Penn and Ed Helms (On possible film, 23:15):

  “Can we audition for that play next year?”…“Let’s just make this movie.”

• Richard Kreitner (On polarization, 28:51):

  “The sore losers kind of falling back on this [secession] as a last resort.”

• Ed Helms (On government dysfunction, 38:25):

  “A Princeton study showed public sentiment…[had] a statistically non-existent effect on whether or not that policy would become a law.”

• Richard Kreitner (On secession as American, 47:23):

  “It’s not just the Confederates, it’s not just racist slave owners…Absolutionists wanted the north to secede…Keep your powder dry…”

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:15–06:43: Kal’s White House “MILF” snafu
• 06:52–24:16: History of Rough and Ready, CA & secession
• 24:16–27:22: Reflections on history, scapegoating, pride
• 27:57–51:45: Interview with Richard Kreitner on modern secession
• 46:13–48:25: Final reflections on what keeps the US together and lessons from history

Tone and Style

• Casual, witty, banter-filled—rich with jokes and asides
• Historical storytelling meets honest, sometimes irreverent political commentary
• Honest about American flaws and SNAFUs, but ultimately hopeful about progress

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

You’ll get a smart, irreverent look at one of America’s weirdest moments of local rebellion—from gold-rush minors refusing taxes and alcohol bans, to modern Californians and Texans half-joking about pulling the plug on the Union. By mixing historic hijinks, personal screwups, and expert analysis, Ed Helms, Kal Penn, and Richard Kreitner deliver big laughs and food for thought: about how America deals with its problems (by running away?), how scapegoating never really goes away, why secession never quite works out as planned, and what keeps this whole messy experiment together.