The Real Fleetwood Mac - Snap Classic

Summary

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Snap Judgment – "The Real Fleetwood Mac" (Snap Classic)

Air Date: May 28, 2026
Produced by: Snap Judgment & PRX
Host: Glynn Washington
Primary Story Producer: John Facile

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into one of classic rock’s most bizarre scandals: The 1974 tour of a "Fleetwood Mac" band—without a single original member on stage. Through a cinematic, first-person narrative blending candid interviews, period drama, and biting humor, the show lays out how a group of British rockers found themselves impersonating rock legends across America, under the dubious direction of a manager convinced he owned the band’s name. It’s a story of deception, shattered dreams, and the strange, liminal space between faking it and making it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene (01:24–03:29)

• Glynn Washington (Host): Introduces the episode’s theme—"fake it 'til you make it," and warns of some bad rock star behavior ahead.
• Rich Engler (Concert Promoter): Remembers banking on a Fleetwood Mac show as the start of their first U.S. tour:
  “This would be fantastic… big news.” (03:48)

2. The Concert That Wasn’t (03:29–07:15)

• On show night in Pittsburgh, thousands of fans and the promoter await Fleetwood Mac—but strangers show up.
• Rich Engler: Realizes something is very off. After a tense confrontation with the so-called manager:
  “I said, hang on, are you kidding me?... That’s not them.” (05:47)
• The stand-in band, led by Elmer Gantry, feels equally uneasy:
  “Going on stage just thinking, my God, we don’t really want to be doing this. This doesn’t feel right.” (07:14)

3. How Did This Happen? (07:23–13:20)

• Gantry recounts being recruited by Mick Fleetwood himself in London, after Fleetwood’s personal crisis.
• The plan: Elmer and musical partner Kirby are to help form a new Fleetwood Mac.
  “Would you like to join Fleetwood Mac? Yeah, obviously, who wouldn’t, you know.” – Elmer Gantry (11:12)
• They assemble a band, rehearse classics, and jet off to America—expecting Mick Fleetwood to join soon.

4. A Tour Without Mick Fleetwood (13:20–17:04)

• The band opens the sold-out Pittsburgh show…without Mick.
  “Where’s Mick, Mia?” – Elmer Gantry (13:58)
• The group is pressured by manager Cliff Davis, known for his aggression and karate antics, into performing anyway.
• Despite the shadiness, the band rocks—and the crowd barely notices.
  “We either gave three or five refunds out of 3,500 people.” – Rich Engler (16:49) “It just went down a bomb. We played really well. It was amazing.” – Elmer Gantry (16:54)

5. The Media and Legal Storm (17:12–24:46)

• Press exposes the fake lineup.
  “Will the Real Fleetwood Mac Please Stand Up?” (18:01)
• Cliff Davis insists on continuing, claiming he owns the band name and can put anyone on stage.
  “I am Fleetwood Mac.” – Cliff Davis, as recounted by Elmer Gantry (19:26)
• The musicians are humiliated, but persist as "The New Fleetwood Mac." Gigs get canceled, a lawsuit is filed, and the band endures harsh coverage and heckling.

6. The Fallout – Back Home and Aftermath (24:46–32:22)

• After six tumultuous weeks, they convince Cliff Davis to send them home.
• Legal action follows from the “real” Fleetwood Mac.
• In court, Mick Fleetwood downplays his involvement.
  “He says it was just clearly bollocks and the judge wasn’t buying it.” – Elmer Gantry (28:26)
• The episode explores the profound career damage to Gantry and Kirby:
  “It really destroyed our potential careers. Basically, we’d been tainted by the publicity. We couldn’t catch a cold, really.” – Elmer Gantry (29:30)

7. The Silver Lining – The Band Stretch (32:22–34:54)

• Gantry and Kirby form a new band, Stretch, channeling their pain into music.
• The hit "Why Did You Do It?"—a direct response to the Fleetwood Mac debacle—emerges: “Like, the only one who knows the truth, that’s him, me and you. The damage is much deeper than you’ll ever see…” – Elmer Gantry recounting lyrics (32:01)
• The episode closes the segment by noting the continued musical partnership.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Going on stage just thinking, my God, you know, we don’t really want to be doing this. This doesn’t feel right.”
  – Elmer Gantry (07:14)

• "He said, I am Fleetwood Mac. We took that with a pinch of salt and went, he’s nuts.”
  – Elmer Gantry recounting Cliff Davis (19:26)

• "It really destroyed our potential careers. Basically, we’d been tainted by the publicity. We couldn’t catch a cold, really.”
  – Elmer Gantry (29:30)

• "Why did you do it? Why did you do that thing to me?"
  – Elmer Gantry, singing lyrics of the Stretch hit (33:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:24] Introduction to “fake it till you make it” & setup for The Real Fleetwood Mac story
• [03:29] Rich Engler reflects on the fateful concert
• [07:14] Elmer Gantry describes moral unease on stage
• [09:44] Gantry’s backstory, music struggles, and Mick Fleetwood’s proposal
• [13:20] Arrival in America and the first show
• [16:20] Reaction to the “fake” Fleetwood Mac’s performance
• [18:01] First press backlash and "Will the Real Fleetwood Mac Please Stand Up?"
• [19:26] Cliff Davis claims he is Fleetwood Mac onstage
• [24:46] End of the tour and band’s return to England
• [28:26] Court scene—Fleetwood’s testimony and aftermath
• [32:01] Genesis of Stretch and the song "Why Did You Do It?"

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Narrative Flow and Tone

The episode flows as a suspenseful, frequently humorous oral history, recounted by those who lived the disaster—and still bear its scars. The tone bounces between incredulous, rueful, and darkly comic as the participants are caught between rock dreams and farce.

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Epilogue: Lessons of the "Bogus Mac"

Despite the embarrassment, Strech's "Why Did You Do It?" became a cathartic hit.
The final word is a bittersweet reflection on fame, betrayal, and the business’s human toll—underscoring the razor-thin line between rock legends and those left backstage.

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For more on Fleetwood Mac, Elmer Gantry, and Stretch, visit snapjudgment.org.

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Transcript

[Mark Ristich]

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[Mark Ristich]

Snappers. I have a confession to make. The truth is. The truth is that every single aspect of my professional life, actually every single aspect of my life in general, has been predicated on the idea of fake it till you make it. If someone asked me, hey, can you act, write, dance, draft, direct run, draw, compose, swim? I've almost always said, yeah, yeah, I can do that. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it absolutely did not work. Those times are called hard lessons. But generally, I'll tell the kids, Go ahead, give whatever it is a go. What's the worst that can happen? Well, it turns out that there are, in fact, certain things that you might not want to fake. Today's show, the real Fleetwood Matt. We're gonna soft rock out this piece. My name is Glenn Washington. You're gonna want to turn up the volume a little bit because you're listening to Stamp. Our story comes from the golden age of classic rock. Tour buses, stadium, concert hall, mullets shimming under the bright, sweaty spotlight. All the rock star stuff. And as such, there might be some language and references to drug use. Bad rock stars, bad. Producer John Facile grabs the mic and goes in search of the real Fleetwood Mac. Step judgment.

[Rich Engler]

I'm all good. I'm gunned up and ready to fire. Here we go. 3, 2, 1.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Rich Engler is a concert promoter in Pittsburgh.

[Rich Engler]

Been doing this for 54 years. Over 6,000 concerts.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And in 1974, he gets a call from an agent in New York telling Him that the band Fleetwood Mac is looking for a venue in Pittsburgh to host the first show of their US Tour.

[Rich Engler]

I said, oh, you mean the first on the whole tour. This would be fantastic.

[Elmer Gantry]

Fleetwood Mac got a Black Magic Woman

[Narrator/Reporter]

Before Stevie Nicks joined the band, they were bluesier, harder rocking, more psychedelic. Even in the early 70s, they were incredibly popular. Maybe not as big as they eventually became, but they had hits like Black Magic Woman.

[Rich Engler]

I said, this will be big news. I'll be able to advertise, come be a part of the first date on the tour of Fleetwood Mac. Coming from England, you know, wow, this is a super show. So day of the show comes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Minutes before Fleetwood Mac's set. Rich peers out from backstage at thousands of rock fans. He takes a deep, dank whiff.

[Rich Engler]

The whole place was smoked up. It was like an atomic bomb went off.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But there's a problem.

[Rich Engler]

There was no appearance yet of the band. I don't see any Fleetwood Mac.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He doesn't see a single member of the band. Not even Mick Fleetwood, the band's namesake. A long haired, six foot six drumming powerhouse. He's hard to miss. Rumors have been circulating that Fleetwood Mac is breaking up and that the band members are at each other's throats. So Rich has reason to be worried.

[Rich Engler]

There's nobody, you know, they have not arrived yet. What is going on? And all of a sudden, boom. The door opens up. I see one, two, three, four, four or five guys walk in, straight back into the dressing room.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Rich doesn't recognize any of these dudes, but they are definitely not Fleetwood Mac.

[Rich Engler]

And then the next thing I see is this guy. He was a little older. He didn't have a suit on, but he was kind of dressy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

This guy introduces himself as Fleetwood Mac's manager.

[Rich Engler]

And I said, where's Fleetwood Mac? He said, they just walked right by you. I said, what are you talking about? I thought those were the roadies. He said, no, that's Fleetwood Mac. And I said, hang on, are you kidding me? I've done dates with them in the past. That's not them. He goes, well, listen, this is Fleetwood Mack as it is today. Forget about those other guys. They're out. You're never going to see them again. This is Fleetwood Mac. And I go, oh, no, no way. I said, this is not happening. He rears back his arm like to slug me. He starts to swing. And as he swings, I lunge forward. My natural instinct was to dive at him.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Rich wraps his arms around the manager's chest and. And the two topple backward into a wall. A security guard comes rushing over.

[Rich Engler]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The guy's breaking up. What's going on? Next thing I know, the band runs on stage and they start playing. What has just happened? I'm in the twilight zone. I'm, like, pacing around. I didn't know what to do. I know people were going to be so upset, and this is total bs.

[Narrator/Reporter]

What Rich doesn't know is that the guys in the band are feeling pretty much the same way he is.

[Elmer Gantry]

You know, going on stage just thinking, my God, you know, we don't really want to be doing this. This doesn't feel right. But we didn't know how to get out of it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The frontman of the band billed as Fleetwood Mac that night was a blonde singer with a soulful, ragged voice who went by the name Elmer Gantry.

[Elmer Gantry]

A lot of people say, oh, Elmer, you were in the bogus Fleetwood Mac. I mean, it was easier to go. Yeah, that's right.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The real reason Elmer was on that stage and felt like he couldn't leave was because he'd been asked to go on by drummer Mick Fleetwood himself.

[Elmer Gantry]

We knew what we knew, which was that we were doing it because Fleetwood had come to our house and said it all and laid it all out.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Just two months before the show in Pittsburgh, Elmer was living in South London with guitarist Kirby Gregory. The two were writing and recording music together when they got a call from Kirby's manager, who also happened to manage Fleetwood Mac. And he told them that Mick Fleetwood wanted to meet them.

[Elmer Gantry]

He said, okay, well, Mick will call you. So Mick did call, and then he came over to where we were living.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Mick Fleetwood parked his Morgan sports car outside their flat and ducked his head as he passed through the doorway. Wiry, wearing a loose shirt, his signature pair of wooden balls hanging from his belt.

[Elmer Gantry]

But he seemed. He seemed damaged, actually very depressed.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Here's what Mick Fleetwood said in his autobiography.

[Mark Ristich]

I couldn't take it anymore. I was coming unglued emotionally. It was heartbreak heaped on heartache for me.

[Elmer Gantry]

He'd just split up with his wife. She was the scene. He said he really needed a rest, needed to get his head together.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So Mick was headed to Africa for some R and R. And while he was gone, he wanted Elmer and Kirby to help him form a new lineup of Fleetwood Mac with Elmer as the lead singer and Kirby on lead guitar.

[Elmer Gantry]

And I thought, well, this makes perfect sense, actually. We've got the kind of British blues rock background. We would just slide into these positions naturally, really. So it seemed it wasn't even really a surprise. It was exciting, it was delightful, but it wasn't really. It wasn't like, oh my God, you've. Why did you think of us? I mean, that never occurred to me, you know, it was obvious why we would have been thought of because of who we were and what we were doing, what we'd been doing, you know.

[Narrator/Reporter]

In the 60s, Elmer fronted Elmer Gantry's Velvet Opera, a band known for their wild shows and the song Flames covered by an early version of Led Zeppelin. They'd even shared a bill once with Fleetwood Mac.

[Elmer Gantry]

I was definitely known. I mean, it may not have been famous, but I was notorious.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Kirby, on the other hand, was in the band Curved Air. He was barely out of his teens, but he could shred with the best

[Elmer Gantry]

of them and he had a kind of guitar and yet he did wonderful things with it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Together they were a dynamic duo. They played all over London, even though they didn't make a whole lot of money doing it.

[Elmer Gantry]

You know, we had this old second hand, beaten up old truck and literally the front was held on with gaffer tape. It was that kind of, you know, that kind of struggle and having a whip round to see what we could afford on the way home from a gig to eat. It was that kind of stuff. And is there enough money to pay for the gas, you know.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Now here was a bona fide rock star, a guy who'd made it big time, the very Fleetwood of Fleetwood Mac himself, offering them the biggest opportunity they'd ever had.

[Elmer Gantry]

It was like, oh God, we're going to actually have roadies. We're going to have like decent equipment. Well, at last might be a possibility of getting kind of some regular income.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Plus they were fans of Fleetwood Mac and they were excited to take the band into a new era.

[Elmer Gantry]

Would you like to join Fleetwood Mac? Yeah, obviously, who wouldn't, you know.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So that afternoon in their flat with Mick Fleetwood, they talked about what they would play on their upcoming tour of America.

[Elmer Gantry]

We went through a whole load of numbers to include in the set. And he said, well, that's no problem.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I obviously know all those working with Fleetwood Mac's manager. Elmer and Kirby would enlist the musicians keeping Mick Fleetwood and possibly one or two others from the old lineup. Did you have any reservations about the fact that it was only Mick Fleetwood?

[Elmer Gantry]

Ah, well, there'd been something like 12 lineups of Fleetwood Mac up until that point.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It's true. Not a lot of job security in Fleetwood Mac. After a couple of hours, Mick Fleetwood left Elmer and Kirby's flat satisfied.

[Elmer Gantry]

He seemed kind of enthusiastic. It seemed like it was real and it was going to happen. And he said, I'll be in touch. Before we all go to the States,

[Narrator/Reporter]

Elmer and Kirby start phoning up musicians to join the band. Some are friends, like the bassist.

[Elmer Gantry]

We've just been offered this. It's fantastic, you know, do you want to get involved?

[Narrator/Reporter]

A keyboard player signs on.

[Elmer Gantry]

He was a great pianist when he was sober, but he was rarely sober.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And finally a temporary drummer to play with them until Mick Fleetwood has had time to get over his heartbreak or whatever.

[Elmer Gantry]

It was all supposed to be secret. All supposed to be hush hush. And we rehearsed. We rehearsed the set that we were putting together. Stop messing around, you know. Rattlesnake Shake, all those old Mac numbers.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Weeks go by and they don't hear from Mick Fleetwood. But then it's time to get on the plane and go.

[Elmer Gantry]

We were a bit annoyed that he hadn't come down to rehearsals. But I don't think the plan was ever for him to travel with us. I thought Mick would be going first class under his own steam, you know?

[Narrator/Reporter]

January 1974. Elmer first steps foot in America, a place he'd never been.

[Elmer Gantry]

Everything was discovery, new discovery, exciting. I mean, it was one of those things that when you're sort of 14 or 15, you know, it's like, I want to have a hit record and I want to tour America.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And their first stop is that show booked by promoter Rich Engler.

[Rich Engler]

How are you, my friend?

[Narrator/Reporter]

At a theater in Pittsburgh.

[Rich Engler]

It's 3,500 seats. So I go on sale, Boom, the thing sells out, like, right away.

[Elmer Gantry]

He was rammed. Absolutely rammed.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The band is ready to rock. But their star drummer, Mick Fleetwood, Right, Where's Mick, Mia?

[Elmer Gantry]

We said, well, where is he?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Feeding Elmer and the boys information is Fleetwood Mac's manager, Cliff Davis.

[Elmer Gantry]

Cliff said, he's not coming. He's not here. We said, well, cancel the gig, then. This. We're not going on and we need to just go.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But Cliff is not one to take no for an answer, saying, look, you're gonna get.

[Elmer Gantry]

I've signed a contract for the band to go on, and you can't do that sort of thing over in the States. You'll end up in jail. And of course, we felt incredibly vulnerable because we'd never been there before. We didn't know how anything worked. Cliff was the man with the tickets and the money. What do you do if you're sitting in jail in Pittsburgh? You don't know what's going on, you know.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Even within the already very shady world of seventies rock managers, Cliff Davis had a reputation. He was known to be eccentric, aggressive, even barking out orders in his thick Cockney accent while practicing karate.

[Elmer Gantry]

You'd be discussing something in the office and he'd be walking around sort of spinning nunchuckers. He was really good at it, you know. I saw him destroy a chair just standing there one day.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Did you know that he was a big karate enthusiast?

[Rich Engler]

Did you just make that up?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Rich Engler, the promoter who got into that awkward man tussle with Cliff Davis.

[Rich Engler]

Oh, my goodness, I'm glad the security guy was there. I might not have lived. I might take me out in a stretcher.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He had to watch helplessly as a band featuring none of the original Fleetwood Mac members took the stage.

[Rich Engler]

I couldn't believe it. I was in the middle of a bogus Fleetwood Fleetwood faux Mac.

[Narrator/Reporter]

As Elmer grabs the mic, he's feeling loose, ready. He'd already thoroughly prepared with what he called his gig kit.

[Elmer Gantry]

Some speed, a quarter bottle of rum and some weed. Getting the balance between being disinhibited enough but being functional enough.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The band doesn't feel like they have a choice now. They don't know what the consequences will be if they don't hold up their end of the bargain.

[Elmer Gantry]

It was just about get on, let's get on, show them what we can do. This is going to be great. And there were some numbers. You go, this is going to blow them away.

[Rich Engler]

And the band went straight into Rattlesnake Shake. To my astonishment and amazement, the band was actually good. They learned all the songs and they were pulling off this too. The audience, their like going nuts. Loving it. The crowd was going crazy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Not many seem to notice that this Fleetwood Mac ain't exactly Fleetwood Mac.

[Rich Engler]

We either gave three or five refunds out of 3,500 people.

[Elmer Gantry]

Went down a storm, did two encores. It was fantastic. It just went down a bomb. We played really well. It was amazing.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When Elmer gets off stage, though, that's when reality hits. There's no way this tour can go on without Mick Fleetwood.

[Elmer Gantry]

Our hearts sunk. You know, what are we gonna do?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Elmer and the band are being paid by the gig, so cutting the tour short. Now that'll really hurt financially. But manager Cliff Davis reassures them. Don't worry, Mick is still coming.

[Elmer Gantry]

It was just. No, he couldn't make it for tonight. He is coming, but he just hasn't got. He's still sort of in a very depressed mood. It was like, well, okay, then he could have come out after, you know, before the second gig or the third gig.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You know, as the band makes their way up the east coast, they don't hear word one from Mick Fleetwood. And Elmer has no way of contacting him.

[Elmer Gantry]

We weren't given any phone numbers for him, so, yeah, we were kind of hanging on.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Meanwhile, the press is beginning to notice that Fleetwood Mac is light of Fleetwood. Articles start appearing with titles like really the Mac? And Will the Real Fleetwood Mac Please Stand Up?

[Elmer Gantry]

That was kind of nasty, nasty stuff. And we thought, this is really bad.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Many of the articles note that Mick Fleetwood is still a member of the band and intending to join them. But by the time the tour reaches New York City, he still hasn't shown

[Elmer Gantry]

because of the publicity in the media and the press, that kind of stuff. The worry was going on stage and were you going to get hit by a bottle before you even started playing?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Half an hour before going on stage at the Academy of Music in New York City. For the first time ever, Aylmer loses his voice.

[Elmer Gantry]

I could hardly speak. You know, I reacted really badly to air conditioning. I mean, the fact that I smoked an enormous amount of fags as well.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Cliff insists that the band go on and play anyway without Elmer.

[Elmer Gantry]

You know, an instrumental set, no matter how good it was, was not really what the audience had come to see. And I felt bad for the other boys because I just figured, you know, we need to do this together.

[Narrator/Reporter]

After limbering up with some karate moves, Cliff goes on stage to address the increasingly hostile crowd. He takes the microphone and calls for silence.

[Elmer Gantry]

He said, I am Fleetwood Mac. We took that with a pinch of salt and went, he's nuts.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Cliff Davis claimed to own the rights to the band name Fleetwood Mac, which meant in his mind he could put anybody he wanted on stage and call them Fleetwood Mac.

[Elmer Gantry]

That kind of belief that, you know, if you've got a bit of paper that says that you've registered the name, then you're entitled to do that. And he saw no problem with it at all.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Elmer watches from the sidelines as the band is forced to take the stage and play a 45 minute instrumental set. And he starts to realize something, that

[Elmer Gantry]

we got caught in the crossfire between the Mac and Cliff.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Across the pond, Mick Fleetwood has started giving statements to the press saying things

[Rich Engler]

like, we're the real Fleetwood Mac. Yeah, for sure.

[Elmer Gantry]

That they'd been wronged and we were, you know, a bogus band trying to trade on their success.

[Mark Ristich]

I couldn't allow other musicians to tour under Our name, whoever they were.

[Elmer Gantry]

I knew absolutely that he was lying. If Mick at any time had phoned up and said, look, I don't want to do this, not going through with it, it would have ended. You know, it would have ended during rehearsals. It would certainly have ended before we went. It's almost like years, years in the business and working towards something like this, and then it's completely destroyed and you've lost all credibility. I don't know. More devastated than angry, I think. Felt kind of betrayed and let down.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Mick Fleetwood practically signed them up to do this tour, and now they're stuck.

[Elmer Gantry]

Simply, we couldn't have afforded to get home. I mean, Cliff wasn't going to go, well, here's your ticket home. Off you go then. He wasn't going to do that. There was no way. He was insistent that he was going to push this through and it was going to be a success.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Cliff is already forging ahead after the NYC show to keep the band out of legal trouble. He renames them now.

[Elmer Gantry]

Cliff's gonna change it to the New Fleetwood Mac.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They're now the new Fleetwood Mac.

[Elmer Gantry]

And it's our job to go on stage and prove how good we are.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But the bad press continues to follow them wherever they go. Articles calling the band members phony, faceless, masquerading unknowns.

[Elmer Gantry]

These unknowns always, where's cobblers?

[Narrator/Reporter]

As the band moves west, gigs start to get canceled left and right. People call in, complaining, asking for refunds. The deputy attorney general of Idaho even files a lawsuit after their show.

[Elmer Gantry]

But the weird thing was, we carried on and we were still going down a storm. Some of the gigs, they were brilliant. I mean, you know, getting up and performing, you kind of. Everything else goes out of the window and you're concentrating on what you. And it was a good lineup, musicians that I could rely on to do the job. It felt great, and it went down great. Considering the situation that we were in and all the news and the bad publicity. Getting encores at gigs was kind of quite surprising.

[Narrator/Reporter]

At one show, they lose power.

[Elmer Gantry]

The back line all went down. Everything went down apart from the PA system. But I just scattered and made stuff up for about 10 minutes and got the audience involved and then clapping and stamping and right into it. And when the sound came back on again, there was this eruption of applause. You know, you get that kind of feel when it's all going well. You know, you've got the audience, so it's not much. Not so much you've got them as they're with you.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The new Fleetwood Mac shares stages and holds their own against rock legends like Kiss, Leonard Skynyrd, Joe Walsh.

[Elmer Gantry]

And Joe Walsh said, I don't know who you are, man, he said, but you're a f ing great band.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Sure, there are the occasional boos and people shouting, where's Mick? At least one bottle gets thrown. And it seems like someone, probably a member of the road crew, sabotages Kirby's guitar amp.

[Elmer Gantry]

And we're about to do the sound check and we find the wires all been ripped out the back of the AC30.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They just get a new amp and press on. Still the weight of it all being labeled as phonies in Rolling Stone. And Scabs by Mick Fleetwood slowly grinds them down.

[Elmer Gantry]

We were saying to Cliff, we want this to stop. We want to go home. We've had enough.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When they cross the border into Canada for a show in Calgary, Cliff finally agrees.

[Elmer Gantry]

We just wanted out. It was humiliating. The tv, the papers is just getting worse, you know, and it's all very well soldiering through and going down to sort of 500 people or a thousand people in a gig. But that doesn't compare to thousands of newspapers out there and the thousands of people that are being reached by snide comments on the tv. You know, we were not going to win that one. It felt like a victory that we managed to persuade people, Cliff, to organize the flights for us to come home.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The new Fleetwood Mac had lasted only six weeks. They get on a plane headed to London, and when they land, their problems aren't over.

[Elmer Gantry]

When we get back to England, they were suing all of us, including Cliff, Kirby, myself, everybody involved.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The old Fleetwood Mac takes the new Fleetwood Mac to court.

[Mark Ristich]

Oh, don't go anywhere. After the break, the don't Stop won't stop music continues. Snap judgment. Family reunion's happening and I love getting to see the oldsters. Makes me think about my own small branch of the family tree. How do I protect everything that we've built? Because planning for the future cannot wait. That's why finding the right insurance policy is straightforward with policy genius. Because when the OGs ask me, hey, are you handling your business, taking care of the family? Their family? I could look them in the eye and say, no worries. Because the policy genius, their licensed team prioritizes your needs instead of one size fits all and helps you find your most affordable policy for you. With Policygenius, you can see if you can find 20 year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million. In coverage. Head to Policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com when Mark and I started Snap, we wanted to tell stories. But Snap was a small business. People wanted things. We had to figure stuff out. Scripts, processes, recording logos. It was overwhelming. And I'm telling you, when you're starting something new, the list of urgents can take over your life. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Get the word out like you have a full marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. But what if you get stuck? Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com snap go to shopify.com snap that's shopify.com sn. Welcome back to Snap Judgment, where our almost, not quite maybe, Fleetwood Mac story continues.

[Elmer Gantry]

They were suing all of us, including Cliff, Kirby, myself, everybody involved.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Mick Fleetwood has to take testify and he admits that, yes, he'd been to Elmer and Kirby's house to talk about the tour, but it wasn't committal.

[Elmer Gantry]

He says it was just clearly bollocks and the judge wasn't buying it. We didn't have to pay a penny. I didn't even have to appear in court.

[Narrator/Reporter]

A representative of Mick Fleetwood declined to comment on this story, and he's maintained ever since that he had nothing to do with the tour.

[Elmer Gantry]

The last time I heard anything from the Mac was when Mick Fleetwood was sitting in my living room. I'm still really angry about it. It's amazing how it all comes back, the feelings around it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I mean, if you were going to talk to Mick Fleetwood about all this, what would you, what would you want to say to him?

[Elmer Gantry]

What the f happened? And if you weren't happy, why didn't you tell us? Why didn't you just phone up and say, I'm not doing it? Yeah, I'd like to know what was going on.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The real Fleetwood Mac relocated to Los Angeles in order to deal with the continuing legal fallout from the tour. There they met Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham and set about becoming the Biggest band in the world.

[Elmer Gantry]

Players only love you when they're playing. I mean, I don't be. I begrudge them that stuff. What I begrudge is the fact that it was so devastating to us. I mean, it really destroyed our potential careers. Basically. We'd been tainted by the publicity. We couldn't catch a cold, really.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Back in London, nobody wanted to work with Elmer and his guitar playing flatmate, Kirby. The calls just stopped coming.

[Elmer Gantry]

I've never been particularly ambitious. It's like even with this thing, you know, my career has been walking through open doors. And that ceased.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Kirby was so down, he swore off the music business entirely and moved to the country.

[Elmer Gantry]

He just thought he'd never play again and went off peeling spuds and doing washing up at his father in law's hotel.

[Narrator/Reporter]

You know, what are you doing?

[Elmer Gantry]

Nothing really at that time. Smoking quite a lot of dope, laying around. I can't really remember actually, to tell you the truth.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And then Elmer got another offer he couldn't refuse from, of all people, Cliff Davis, the recently fired manager of Fleetwood Mac. Why did you say yes to working with Cliff again?

[Elmer Gantry]

I mean, we knew he was a bit of a megalomaniac, but our view was that he'd been stitched up by Mick Fleetwood. Cliff decided we should form a band and he would finance us putting a band together. That's how Stretch happened.

[Narrator/Reporter]

From the ashes of the new Fleetwood Mac rose Stretch, a group fronted by Elmer, featuring the bass player from the tour.

[Elmer Gantry]

And Kirby came back from the deep low that he'd been in.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Kirby, elmer's MUSICAL partner We auditioned for

[Elmer Gantry]

guitarists and we auditioned for drummers.

[Narrator/Reporter]

A lot of musicians who came in weren't actually interested in joining the band.

[Elmer Gantry]

People turning up not good enough or not equipped enough, but really only coming in the first thing. Oh, tell us about the Fleetwood Mac stuff. The attitude was, how did you think you could get away with that? You know, of course we didn't think we could get away. We didn't think we were getting away with anything.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Finally they had a lineup and they went into the studio and we were recording down there.

[Elmer Gantry]

And Kirby turned up with this track,

[Narrator/Reporter]

a song he'd written during his hiatus from music.

[Elmer Gantry]

I didn't like the style of it

[Narrator/Reporter]

much, but Elmer really connected with the lyrics. They were about betrayal and dishonesty. Like the only one who knows the truth that's him, me and you the damage is much deeper than you'll ever see Was it a very conscious comment on the Fleetwood Mac disaster?

[Elmer Gantry]

Yeah. Cause it was Kirby, Mick Fleetwood and me, you know, we're the only ones that know the truth. And it was a track that Kirby had written when he was in that kind of deep despair, trying to make sense of it all, just laying down the truth of the situation, how painful it was. The damage is much deeper than you'll ever see well, that's certainly true.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They decided to run through it right there in the studio, even though Elmer's throat was sore and his voice was really more like a growl.

[Elmer Gantry]

So I had kind of gig throat, which was like. It adds a sort of bottom dimension to my vocal range. It was almost like a piss take. I'm gonna do a Barry White on this, you know, while we were playing it. GMU is a drummer. He missed a beat, which he then realized sounded really good. So he repeated it. I've been thinking about what you have done to me the damage is much deeper than you'll ever see for two

[Narrator/Reporter]

and a half minutes Elmer is at a simmer and then he explodes.

[Elmer Gantry]

I wonder what you pushed or what you led why did you do it? Why did you do that thing to me?

[Narrator/Reporter]

So my ears now. It's a pretty scorching track. Like, you guys sound pissed.

[Elmer Gantry]

Yeah, I didn't think. I'm gonna make this really hard hit, you know, I'm gonna sing it like this. I just sang it straight from the guts and out of the mouth, you know, Bypass the brain at all costs, You know. It's just lucky that it ended up being a classic. And I've heard loads of versions of it. You can't choose to create that stuff. You finish a track sometimes and everybody just looks at one another. We got that one, two.

[Mark Ristich]

Now, you might not be surprised to learn that the song Elba recorded with Stretch that day. Why did you do it? Became the biggest hit of his career. It's been featuring commercials, a Guy Ritchie movie, and Mick Fleetwood has definitely heard it. The song was a direct attack on

[Elmer Gantry]

me for not showing up for the

[Mark Ristich]

bogus Fleetwood Mac tour, which I'd never promised to do in the first place. Of course, all of it was too bizarre.

[Elmer Gantry]

Damage is much deeper than you'll ever see.

[Mark Ristich]

Elmer and Kirby still make music together. Learn more about their tunes, past and present, on our website, stampjudgment.org. Thank you, Alma, for sharing your story with us. Thanks as well to Mike Stacks from Ugly Things magazine and the good folks at Whistledown Studios in London, especially David Prest, who read the excerpts from Mick Fleetwood's autobiography for us. The original score for that piece was by Dirk Schwartzhoff. It was produced by John Facile. Now after the break, one lucky young man gets the best job in the world in just a moment. Stay tuned. You know that life doesn't follow a script, especially with money. Sometimes you need your cash when you need your cash, all of it. Not with fees deducted or fees on the fees. And Chime is changing the way people bank with the most rewarding fee free banking. This is fee free banking built for you with services I could have so used back in the day, like getting up to $500 of your pay. When you use my pay, there's a reason China was rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. Real humans 24 7. You're not just switching banks. You're upgrading to America's number one choice for banking with a Chime checking account. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com snap that's chime.com snap it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services for MyPay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges, stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on a J.D. power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, MyPay, SpotMe and travel perks, go to Chime.com disclosures. Welcome back to Snap Judgment today. Everyone wants the dream job, but it always goes to someone else. That is the rule. But what happens when that someone else is you?

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

This story starts back in the early 70s New York when Merritt Riley was the Yankees biggest 11 year old fan.

[Merritt Riley]

I was hardcore. Well actually my mom and dad were big Yankee fans so I really didn't have a choice, to tell you the truth. It was always extra special to be at a game, smelling the grass and smelling the popcorn, you know, always sought to get autographs and meet the players, but at the games I'd be sitting there watching the bad boy retrieving foul balls and I always wondered how in God's name can I become that kid? I figured, you know, what the hell, I'll give it a shot. And I wrote a letter to Yankee Stadium. I didn't address it to anybody in particular, just hoping it would get a response.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

And he did pretty quickly from a bat boy named Joe.

[Merritt Riley]

Being the kid I was, I got the letter. And I was so excited. It was written on Yankee letterhead stationery. And I was like, wow, this, you know, this is it. I showed my mom and dad Batboy.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Joe wrote back and said, in order to join the bat boy club, you

[Merritt Riley]

had to have good grades, athletic ability, be 16 years old.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Merritt only met one of these requirements. He was a smarty pants.

[Merritt Riley]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

But over the next five years, Merritt set his little mind and body to it, and bada bing, bada boom. Joe hooked him up, and Merritt became a Yankee bad boy. And even before he did any bad boy things, it changed his life.

[Merritt Riley]

I'm kind of making fun of myself here. When I was in high school, I was like a little nerdy kid, you know, I wasn't really one of those popular kids, you know what I mean? All of a sudden, everybody wanted to be my friend. Kids that I thought would never talk to me. Cause they were the cool kids, they were the jocks, you know, it's funny, cause a lot of those kids are friends still today. Best part of the job was being around players that, you know, a year or two before, I was watching on TV and only dreaming that it would be like a dream to, you know, to meet these people, you know. And now I'm in the same locker room as them.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Being a bat boy is no easy work. Merritt shined all the players cleats, did the laundry, and during practices, he'd shag fly balls. But his most important job was during the game.

[Merritt Riley]

During the game, you have one responsibility. Once that player that's at home plate hits the ball, whether it's a base hit or an out, your main and only responsibility is to get that bat and get it right back to the dugout.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Once in the dugout, all Merritt had to do was return the bat to the bat container where the other bats hung out.

[Merritt Riley]

During the game, the Yankees were very, very strict about not being part of the game. You know, being invisible, really.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Now, Merritt was planning the rest of his life and career from his gig as a bat boy. If he did a good job, his plan was to become an umpire. Well, that was the hope. At least until July 24, 1983, Yankees Stadium. Merritt's beloved Yankees were facing one of their biggest rivals, the Kansas City Royals.

[Merritt Riley]

It was a Sunday afternoon in July, and back then, the Yanks in Kansas City, they saw each other a lot in the playoffs. And it was a packed house. You know, it was hot. It was a loud, you know, boisterous crowd.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Now, this game was extra special in merit. Not because the heated rivalry, but because of one player on the Royals, the superstar hitter, George Brett.

[Merritt Riley]

For whatever reason, George Brett took a liking to me. Even though he was a superstar, he was like a regular guy. He'd clown around everybody in the clubhouse. He'd always be breaking my chops about one thing or another. You know, kidding around not mean. He had a nickname for me, and it was Spalding from Caddyshack.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Spalding Smails. Not the coolest nickname. Spalding from the movie Caddyshack is a spoiled brat infamous for picking his nose and eating it.

[Merritt Riley]

You know what? It wasn't like I liked a nickname. I just liked that he noticed me enough to have a nickname for me. You know, he made you feel important. That made me like him. You know, he definitely became my favorite Yankee fan.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Listeners, don't worry about it. His allegiance is still with you.

[Merritt Riley]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, George Brett was one of those guys that I would secretly root for. As long as the Yankees would win the game. I was rooting for George Brett to do well. There weren't other players I could say that about that were not on the Yankees.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

All right, so back to the game.

[Merritt Riley]

First inning, second, third, four. The game didn't stand out for any reason. Seventh inning, eighth inning. All right, here we are on the top of the ninth inning. The Yanks are up 4, 3.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

And it's a very close game with the Royals at bat with two outs and a runner on base.

[Merritt Riley]

You know, you figured the Yanks are going to win this game. You have the Yankee closer, Goose Gossage, who basically was lights out once they brought him in. But a player from Kansas City gets on base and none other than my favorite player in baseball, George Brett. The crowd's on its feet. George Brett is known as the Yankee killer, but also well known as the hemorrhoid guy.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Back in the 1980 World Series, George had to leave a game early because hemorrhoid pain. Since then, every time he came up to bat, he was the butt of all jokes and jeers.

[Merritt Riley]

The crowd is going wild, jeering at George Brett. Cause of a hemorrhoidal issue. I got a big conflict going on in my head. You know, I'm rooting for this guy, George Brett, to get the big hit, but at the same time, I want to see my favorite team win the game. So George Brett's at bat, and Goose Gossage leans in and delivers a pitch.

[Elmer Gantry]

Uh oh, uh oh.

[Merritt Riley]

I could tell just from the sound of the ball hitting the bat, this thing was Gonna leave the ballpark. There was a very quick moment of silence, and then all of a sudden, the place went crazy.

[Umpire/Commentator]

And now the Royals have the one run lead.

[Merritt Riley]

So right away, I get up the home plate, I grab the bat. At the time, I know that I have to get that back to the dugout, but I said, you know what? I know I'll probably get in trouble, but I'm gonna wait there. I'm gonna wait there with the bat. And I want to high five him when he comes around because he was such a good person to me. I wanted to show that I'm a Yankee fan, but I'm a George Brett fan. While I'm standing there at home plate waiting for George Brett to round the bases, the manager of the Yankees, Billy Martin, is on the top step of the dugout. The veins of his neck just like protruding from his neck. Cause he was screaming for his catcher to check the bat. Check the bat. Right after that, the catcher of the Yankees drips it out of my hand, and he begins to inspect the bat for cork. When players cork their bats, makes the ball travel further. It's cheating. The catcher checked it for cork and then saw that there was no cork. And he just dropped it on the ground right next to me. Gotta be honest, I didn't know what was going on at this time. George Bretton now crossed his home plate and just went right to the dugout. I did not get to high five him because now I was so caught up in what was going on. Right after that, the manager ends up at home plate screaming, I want that bat checked. I want it checked for pine tark.

[Umpire/Commentator]

Is that he's got too much pine tar. And the umpires are going to get together. George Bretton looking around and wanting to know what's going on in the umpires.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

Pine tar is a sticky substance that players put on their wooden bats. Basically, it helps them grip the bat, swing the bat, and hopefully hit a home run.

[Umpire/Commentator]

That pine tar up that far on the bat, first time in a long, long time I've seen the umpires huddle this long and have a meeting over it. They're feeling it, see, as if there's some sticky stuff around there.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

But there is a limit to how much pine tar one can use. 18 inches from the tip of the handle, about the width of home plate.

[Merritt Riley]

The umpires take the bat, they lay it down against home plate to determine if the pine tar was too far up the handle or the bat.

[Umpire/Commentator]

I've never seen this. I never have either.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

The umpire Struggle to make a call. And that's because the pine tar rule, it's one of those obscure rules that's rarely enforced. And here the crafty Yankee manager was waiting until. Until the perfect moment to bring this tiny rule down on George's head.

[Merritt Riley]

I'm thinking, if I would have just picked up the bat and gotten it out of there instead of waiting at home play for the high five, none of this be happening.

[Umpire/Commentator]

That's Nick Brumigan with the ball. This is gonna be an interesting call. Brett isn't sure whether he has a home run yet or not.

[Merritt Riley]

At that point, I stopped slinking away, back towards the dugout, walking backwards, and the players were angry. And at one point, George Brett, who's now pacing up and down the dugout like a raging bull, he says, all I know is that if they call me out, you're going to see four dead umpires. Four dead umpires.

[Mark Ristich]

Four dead umpires.

[Merritt Riley]

And almost right after that, almost immediately after that, the whole painter umpire looks towards where the Kansas City Royals were and makes the out sign.

[Umpire/Commentator]

They might be going to call George Brett out. Well, he.

[Elmer Gantry]

Out.

[Umpire/Commentator]

Yes, sir. Look. Look at this. Brett is out and mad.

[Merritt Riley]

George Brett just charges out of the dugout like a maniac. First couple buttons on his shirt were, like, open. You know, his hair was a disaster. Yeah.

[Umpire/Commentator]

Forcibly restrained from hitting plate umpire Tim Mc.

[Merritt Riley]

Oh, it was crazy. It was crazy.

[Umpire/Commentator]

The Yankees have won the ball game. 4, 3. Brett is called out for using an illegal bat.

[Merritt Riley]

Now I position myself inside the dugout, at which point the players from Kansas City are yelling at me, why the hell didn't you get the bat? I was. You could. You could edit this. I was. My pants. 50,000 people and all these big baseball players. And I was scared. I'm not afraid to say that I was scared.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

At this point, all hell breaks loose.

[Merritt Riley]

Yankee Stadium security. The guys in suits and ties are out on the field. And one of them comes up behind the umpire and swipes the bat out of the umpire's hand and makes a beeline for the dugout. At which point, a pitcher for the Kansas City Royals, Gaylord Perry, sneaks up behind the Yankee Stadium security and swipes the bat out of his hands.

[Umpire/Commentator]

Well, a Yankee security person and one of the umpires quickly are chasing whoever has the bat. Jose Martinez is holding bread. Bobby. I've never seen this in my life.

[Merritt Riley]

It was somewhat of a movie, really was. It kept getting worse for me. It was like a bad nightmare. Kept getting worse.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

The game ends. Yankee fans celebrate as they leave the stadium while the Royal fans are still stunned.

[Merritt Riley]

Players are gone, the umpires are gone, the whole swarm of people is gone. I'm in the dugout by myself. One of the clubhouse managers comes down and says, you don't want to go up into that locker room right now. The Kansas City Royals don't want to see you. They're pissed off at you.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

So Merritt begins his post game duties. Knocking the mud out of spikes, cleaning up the Yankee locker room.

[Merritt Riley]

At that point, I thought it was the end of the world. This is the biggest thing ever that's happened to me. The manager of the clubhouse where the Royals were came down and said, look, it's safe to go back down to the locker room. The guys that were angry are gone, so come on down. All I could tell you was I was real nervous. I entered the locker room very, very timidly, and I opened the door to the locker room. On the left hand side is a swarm of reporters.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

And guess who's in the center of this swarm? You guessed it, superstar George Brett.

[Merritt Riley]

The one guy I don't want to see. And he's one of the only ones left. So I try to make my way towards the back of the locker room. I figured he wouldn't see me because there were so many reporters around him. And I go walking through and, you know, you couldn't have planned it any better. The reporters move out of the way and all of a sudden he locks eyes with me and I'm thinking, holy, you gotta be kidding. I thought I was dead. Yeah, Yeah. I figured my heart was broken already. He's so. He's like Spalding. And I stopped dead in my tracks. And I didn't expect that at all, that he would be in the mood where he's calling me by my nickname, you know. And I was like, yeah. And he looks at me and says, why didn't you get the bat? And I'm like, holy Christ, what do I say? What do I say? You know, I'm speaking to a major league baseball player. I'm 17, 16, 17 years old. And before I could answer, he. He just started laughing. He said, I'm only, I'm only kidding around you. He goes, don't worry about it. And then he said, but you do owe me. And I remember saying as clear as day, whatever you want, whatever you need. So he says to me, do you want me to tell you what he says to me? He says to me, the next time I'm back here in New York City, he goes, you're going to get me laid. And I said to him, you want me to get you laid? And I started laughing, you know, and he laughed. And that was pretty much it.

[Narrator/Reporter (Merritt Riley story)]

After the pine tar game, people called George Brett a cheater for using a special bat. But George, he got the last laugh. Eventually, the pine tar ruling was overturned, George got his home run back, and the Royals won the game. Oh, and remember the hemorrhoids nickname that was now behind him?

[Merritt Riley]

As a result of the pine tar game, that nickname was forever gone. People don't even know about it. Really. I know this whole incident could be blamed on my hero worship of George Bretton. You know, any other player, I went up and retrieved bats probably thousands of times. The one time I didn't do it, this baseball history was made.

[Umpire/Commentator]

He's out. Yes, sir, Brett is out. Look at this. He is out. Bobby. I've never seen this in my life.

[Merritt Riley]

And still to this day, I still have not gotten that high five I was looking for.

[Mark Ristich]

Thank you, Merritt Riley, for sharing that story with a Snap. Merritt still considers himself the Yankees biggest fan and a big shout out as well to Daniel Barbarisi from the Wall Street Journal for bringing us that story. Have a link to his story on our website, stampjudgment.org Original sound design by Renzo Gorio and that piece was produced by Davey Kim. Remember, don't stop the music. If you need more Snap in your life, and I know you need more Snap in your life, the Snap Judgment podcast is available. Wherever podcasts are available, let somebody know. They will be forever grateful. As well as Snap's evil twin podcast, Spooked. Snap is brought to you by the team that knows how to hide stuff on the tour bus. Except for the uber producer, Mr. Mark Ristich. He's always with the. It's in there, Officer. It's over there, Officer. There's Nancy Lopez, Pat Mercede Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Goriot, John Facil, Shayna Shealy, Taylor Dacott, Flo Wiley, Marissa Dodge, Bo Walsh, David Exme and Regina Bediaco. And this, this is not the news. No aces of news. In fact, you could do like me, head out to the club, let it slip that you're part of the band, even though of course you're not part of the band. And you would still, still, even then, not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is prx.

[Elmer Gantry]

Sam.