A Love Story for the Ages! from Our Ancestors Were Messy

Summary

Snap Judgment Podcast Summary

Title: A Love Story for the Ages!
Host/Author: Snap Judgment and PRX
Episode: "A Love Story for the Ages! from Our Ancestors Were Messy"
Release Date: May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Snap Judgment, titled "A Love Story for the Ages! from Our Ancestors Were Messy," listeners are transported to the early 20th century to explore the intricate tapestry of Black love, community, and resilience. Hosted by Nicole Hill from the podcast "Our Ancestors Were Messy," the episode delves into forgotten love stories published in Black newspapers during America's apartheid years, specifically focusing on the Colorado Statesman and the Tulsa Star.

Nicole Hill introduces the episode by emphasizing the importance of oral and written histories within the Black community, bringing to life stories that textbooks often overlook. She sets the stage for a nostalgic journey, inviting listeners to witness love, scandal, and everyday life through the lens of past generations.

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Story Selection Process

Timestamp: [00:00 - 05:00]

Nicole Hill introduces her guests, Zakiya Gibbons and Emmanuel Joji, who engage in a creative exercise to select the most compelling love story to place in a hypothetical time capsule destined for the year 2030. They embody archivists from the 1920s, with Zakiya in a flapper outfit and Emmanuel in a pinstripe pimp suit, symbolizing the era's vibrant culture.

Notable Quote:

Nicole Hill ([00:02]): "We're reaching back through time to bring on the griot to shine light on stories the history books forgot, but Granny never did."

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First Story: "After Many Years" from the Colorado Statesman

Timestamp: [07:00 - 16:00]

The first story presented is "After Many Years" by Janet Rees, published on October 25, 1913, in the Colorado Statesman. This poignant narrative follows the tumultuous relationship between a man and a woman who repeatedly propose and refuse marriage over a decade. The story culminates in a dramatic reunion on the agreed-upon date, where the man confronts his lingering feelings and imagines the woman’s presence, leading to a deeply emotional and unresolved ending.

Notable Quotes:

Zakiya Gibbons ([15:01]): "Janet knew what she was doing."

Unnamed Speaker ([15:14]): "I was transported."

Discussion Highlights:

• Emotional Depth: Zakiya and Emmanuel express how the story's dramatic flair and emotional vulnerability resonated with them, highlighting the universal nature of love and heartbreak.
• Timeless Themes: The conversation touches on themes of romantic messiness and vulnerability, relating them to contemporary experiences of love and relationships.

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Second Story: "Ended the Argument" from the Tulsa Star

Timestamp: [20:17 - 47:25]

The second story originates from the Tulsa Star, published on October 23, 1915, titled "Ended the Argument." This tale revolves around a young woman, Abigail, who defies her mother's wishes by eloping with a man named Charlie Lyman, despite her mother's disapproval and concerns about his lack of financial stability.

Notable Quotes:

Unnamed Speaker ([24:37]): "Abigail said Mrs. Wise to her daughter. 'Remember, please, that I'm older than you. Wisdom comes only with age.'"

Zakiya Gibbons ([27:20]): "I want the citizens of 2030 to know that girl can make you rich."

Discussion Highlights:

• Mother-Daughter Dynamics: The narrative explores the tension between Abigail and her mother, reflecting on societal expectations versus personal desires.
• Economic Pressures: The story highlights the importance of financial stability in relationships, a challenge that remains relevant today.
• Legacy of the Tulsa Star: Emmanuel provides historical context about the Tulsa Star's role in the Black community and its resilience during the Tulsa Race Massacre, emphasizing the paper’s significance in preserving community stories.

Decision Point: Zakiya and Emmanuel debate which story best represents timeless Black love and decide in favor of "Ended the Argument" for its nuanced portrayal of love, economic struggle, and familial relationships.

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Third Story: "Her Helpful Valentine" from the Colorado Statesman

Timestamp: [47:25 - 42:40]

The final story, "Her Helpful Valentine" by Lee Shippey Feldon, was published on February 10, 1917. It narrates the tragic tale of Felden, a poet, whose passionate expressions of love for Nellie Hastings lead to his mental collapse after she reciprocates his affection with a poem of her own. The story concludes with Felden's abrupt departure and subsequent marriage to Nellie by his friend, highlighting themes of unrequited love, artistic passion, and societal pressures.

Notable Quotes:

Zakiya Gibbons ([39:02]): "That's the poem."

Unnamed Speaker ([29:14]): "I have been struggling so badly financially that now I'm like, damn, it would be really nice to have a partner who makes money."

Discussion Highlights:

• Artistic Expression and Mental Health: The story delves into the impact of creative passion on mental well-being, a topic still pertinent today.
• Consent and Agency: The conversation touches on Abigail’s agency in refusing a suitor and the importance of mutual consent in relationships, drawing parallels to modern discussions on these issues.
• Economic Realities vs. Romantic Idealism: The speakers relate the story to contemporary economic struggles, emphasizing the tension between financial stability and romantic aspirations.

Conclusion of Story Selection: After thorough discussion, the hosts decide that "Ended the Argument" offers a richer, more relatable narrative for future generations, capturing the messy and multifaceted nature of love within the Black community.

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Closing Remarks

Timestamp: [47:25 - 48:28]

Nicole Hill wraps up the episode by highlighting the depth and relatability of the selected stories, celebrating the rich history of Black love and community resilience. She credits the team behind the podcast, encouraging listeners to explore more stories from "Our Ancestors Were Messy."

Notable Quote:

Nicole Hill ([47:25]): "There is so much more where this came from."

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Preservation: The episode underscores the importance of preserving Black history through storytelling, ensuring that personal and community narratives are not lost to time.
• Timeless Nature of Love: Despite the passage of a century, the complexities of love, including vulnerability, societal pressures, and personal agency, remain relevant and relatable.
• Community Resilience: Stories from the Colorado Statesman and Tulsa Star exemplify the Black community's resilience and ingenuity in the face of adversity, both socially and economically.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Nicole Hill ([00:02]): "We're reaching back through time to bring on the griot to shine light on stories the history books forgot, but Granny never did."
• Zakiya Gibbons ([15:01]): "Janet knew what she was doing."
• Unnamed Speaker ([24:37]): "Abigail said Mrs. Wise to her daughter. 'Remember, please, that I'm older than you. Wisdom comes only with age.'"
• Zakiya Gibbons ([27:20]): "I want the citizens of 2030 to know that girl can make you rich."
• Nicole Hill ([47:25]): "There is so much more where this came from."

---

Conclusion

"A Love Story for the Ages! from Our Ancestors Were Messy," delivered by Snap Judgment and PRX, is a richly woven narrative that not only entertains but also educates listeners about the nuanced and multifaceted nature of Black love and community life in the early 20th century. Through meticulous storytelling and engaging discussions, the podcast brings to life the voices of ancestors whose stories continue to resonate today.

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For more stories and to explore the full range of "Our Ancestors Were Messy," visit Snap Judgment’s website or listen on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nicole Hill]

Snap Studios. Snap Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on. Based on how you buy. Okay. So in the black community, history doesn't just come from textbooks. It often comes early in the morning or late at night around the kitchen table with cousins you just met and elders who swear they wipe your bottom when you were a baby. Starts with a story. The back and forth, Bob and weed. The call and response. The testimony, church. The elder becomes the griot. The family becomes the chorus. It's not a lecture. It's a performance. And when the griot says those magic words, come to find out. The room erupts. Laughter, tears, gasp. Claps stomp. Because stories are not just told or passed down. And today, around the Snap kitchen table, we're reaching back through time to bring on the griot to shine light on stories the history books forgot, but Granny never did. I'm proud to introduce you to Nicole Hill, host of the incredible podcast Our Ancestors Were Messy. Yes, messy, not dignified. Not statues on a pedestal, but real. Full of life, gossip, scandal. Nicole digs into black newspapers from America's apartheid years, from Harlem to Houston, and uncovers pop culture and community from back when you had to fight just to have a paper in the first place. And today, Nicole sits down with Zakiya Gibbons and Emmanuel Joji. And together, they channel the ancestors, uncovering stories of love, survival, joy, even in the shadow of Jim Crow. So get comfortable, grab your tea and whatever you put in your tea. Cause the ancestors have something to say. Nicole Hill. Take it away.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Have you ever made a time capsule or been part of the making of a time capsule?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yes. Yes, I have.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay. What? Tell me a story.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

So I spent part of my childhood in Belgium. And the school I went to there in, like, the year to mark the millennium, like, 2000, decided that we were all gonna put something in there and bury it. And I went back to that school for the first time in, like, years and years, like, maybe two years ago. And the school doesn't exist. It's a housing development. Damn. They built over it. I'm never getting that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Damn.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh, no.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Do you know what you put in there? Do you remember?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah, I do. It's kind of embarrassing, you know how, like, teachers used to ask you to, like, write letters to yourself, like, years later yeah, nobody asked me to do it, but I just did that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

But what's embarrassing is I do remember what the first line was. It was pretty bad. It was like, hey, Emmanuel, if you're reading this, this may be the smartest thing you've read in quite some time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. Just to know that that letter is underneath the housing development right now.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Keep it buried, keep it buried.

[Emmanuel Joji]

So we are in the 1920s.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay? This is like, also the time period of, like, finger wave hair.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Oh, prohibition. 100% flappers.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Flappers.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Okay, I was gonna say, like, we're talking full on pimp suits.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Like, I.

[Emmanuel Joji]

So 1920s. We've got the vibe, we've set the scene. Okay. We're all archivists. You're an archivist in a flapper outfit. Zakiya. You're an archivist in a pinstripe pimp suit.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Okay.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Like, Emmanuel, we've got the vision and we have been tasked with putting one item into a time capsule that is going to be opened in the year 2030.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Ooh, okay.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Somebody else is gonna do the civil rights part. Don't worry about it.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Okay.

[Emmanuel Joji]

What we, the archivists have been tasked is figuring out the one right story to include that will demonstrate how black people thought about love in the 1910s, 1915's 1920s. This is meant to be representative of our approach to love. And ideally, it'll be timeless. It'll have some message that the children, the citizens of 2030, will be like, thank you so much. It's also clear to me now, okay, this is what we're looking to do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, I love this. Okay.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Okay. Yeah.

[Emmanuel Joji]

All right, so we're both on board. All right. We have before us three love stories that were published in turn of the century black newspapers. And we're gonna read all three and then select just one to send ahead of us to 2030. So what are we looking for in our ideal stories?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I'm looking for some, like, great migration, long distance.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Like, oh, we want drama, love and.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Duty got in the way type stuff. Stuff, you know, like, yeah, that's what I'm looking for. But also, yeah, also some steam, you know, a little. Little heat, you know, prohibition, people dancing the jazz and doing all kinds of stuff.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I feel like this is a cop out because this show is called Our Ancestors Were Messy, but I'd want a little mess. I want to, like, clutch my pearls a little bit. I want to gasp, like, oh, oh, you know, some steaminess would be good. I love a twist. I Love a turn. I also love a villain.

[Emmanuel Joji]

I don't know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Someone where I'm like, oh, I don't know about you, you know?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay, so we want, like, the Future citizens of 2030 to be entertained. We're like, attention, black community. Lean in here.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Maybe like, a lesson to be gleaned.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay. All right. I like it. So our letters are coming from one of two papers today, the first being the Colorado Statesman. So let me tell you a little bit about this paper.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yes.

[Emmanuel Joji]

The Colorado Statesman was officially founded by two men. Founder number one was the first black man to be admitted to the Colorado Bar. His name is Edwin Hackley. Founder number two, Joseph Dee Dee Rivers. Ugh, the names. Everybody always has, like, such a good name. He also studied law, and he ran a real estate business, and he was a journalist because back then, you needed to be, like, three to four things. This is the talented 10th. Their job is to save us all. You cannot have one job. Their parents were slaves. Nobody is impressed with one job.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So I feel like we kind of do that now. At least. I'm a host, story editor, writer, dog walker, blah, blah, blah. You know, I feel like we've been staying on that tip.

[Emmanuel Joji]

This is where we got it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Emmanuel Joji]

So they found the paper. Now, these other two aren't officially credited by, like, historians, but both men do credit their wives. So that's Mrs. Richie Rivers and the famous opera singer Ms. Azalea Hackley. Ooh.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wow.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay, so the Colorado Statesman's based out of Denver, and its purpose was to serve the black community of Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, and New Mexico in the 1890s. That's when it started. And they were serving them some of the only news that they could access about the fight that black communities across America were staging for civil rights and for equal justice and for, like, common human decency. This is how they find out about it, because the white press, of course, is not going to cover that. So that's on the front page. The rest of the paper is one of my favorite ones to read for fun, because I feel like these two dudes or these four people were just looking around the earth and being like, what a time to be alive. Like, wow, just look at this new tech in Cleveland on the docks. Can you believe it? Iowa's opening all these libraries. Wow. That's, like, a lot of what I read in there, and I just think it's sweet. I feel like that's how I feel.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We love a gratitude practice. Love that.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yes, exactly. And they have that now. They're very Respectable and, like, stuck up. But then they're also, if you read between the lines, are just being like, wow, what a country. You know? So the couples, they've launched this paper, they're also launching mutual aid organizations all over Denver. They're doing. Everybody has to be doing everything they can for the community at this time.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah.

[Emmanuel Joji]

But Azalea is our famous opera singer, and she can't be in Denver all the time. So sometimes she goes away to Europe and all around America and she sings. Sings? Sings.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, wow.

[Emmanuel Joji]

And Edwin's like, boy, am I lonely.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Uh. Oh.

[Emmanuel Joji]

So he starts writing letters to a that he's made Chicago's premier investigative journalist and a fellow newspaper editor herself, Ms. Ida B. Wells.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh, okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Everybody's like, you guys are sending each other a lot of letters. Like, maybe at first they were about the business. Obviously, they're both in the newspaper journalism business. He's a lawyer, so they're probably talking about cases. They're both heavy into mutual aid, so maybe it started out professional.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh, they were heavy into mutual aid.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Well done. Well done.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Thank you. I was waiting. I was lying. I was like, there's an opening here. There's a joke to be made.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Here I go. So people are whispering, and Azalea hears about this, and she's like, I hate Ida B. Wells. You know, I don't want you talking to her. What are you doing? Beefing, beefing, beefing. Eventually, they split, and Edwin's like, you know what? I've been more of a playwright this whole time anyway, so he moves to Philly and does that, and he's like, joseph, you take the paper from here.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wow.

[Emmanuel Joji]

So Joseph and Richie keep the paper going for the next 40 years until he passes away. And then the paper continued on until 2017. So that's 132 year run.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wow. Wow.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Talk about legacy media. That's incredible.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yeah, they change hands a lot. They change names. But with these black papers, people really do try their best to keep them going for as long as they can, huh? Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So that's incredible. Also, I'm just still stuck. I'm sorry, I'm just still stuck on someone having beef with Ida B. Wells. Like, I just did not ever imagine.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That, like, Azalea did not like her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our editors, they're clearly hardworking. They're activists, but they also had love lives. And love stories do regularly appear in the paper like the one we're about to cover. So without further ado, Emanuel, I said adieu because you're British.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. You're welcome. Okay. This was published Saturday, October 25th, 1913. The headline is After Many Years by Janet Rees. Many times he had proposed, and just as many times she had refused him. But they remained good friends. It was just after one of the offers and refusals that, half jestingly, half seriously, they agreed to meet in a favorite roof garden 10 years hence so that each might know what the other had reaped. The girl declared that they must put the finishing touch to a romantic situation by wearing red roses. And the youth laughingly assented. Even if he married, he was to keep the appointment. It would be but a meeting of one old friend with another, the girl said. She, of course, would be wedded to none, not with her glorious career to follow. Five of the 10 years passed, and the girl and youth were now man and woman and had married each other. Fame had come to the woman, misery to the man. The woman had found it necessary to dispense with the man or the career. And it was the man who had been told to go. Damn sorry that wasn't ruined. That's just me. Five more years, alternately slipping and dragging away, brought the night of the engagement made 10 years before. The man had not heard of a woman for a long time. The last he had heard was that she was on the continent. She'd written some books. He'd heard of them but had not read them. They had been the cause of his desolation. With a low, mirthless laugh at his own foolishness, the man took the elevator to the roof garden, a red rose nestling in his buttonhole. And with an odd choking sensation he sought and found the little corner which she had liked. A corner screened by drooping palms so that the two could be alone with the stars and music. He came with no thought that the woman would be there. No doubt she had forgotten the romantic agreement of 10 years ago. But it pleased his fancy to keep the appointment. Besides, by closing his eyes, he could almost see her on the other side of the table. And imagination appeases the hunger of loneliness. For a while he even ordered the dishes she liked best, remembering with a reminiscent smile her fondness for ice cream. For what seemed like a long time he sat there. The dinner grew cold and the waiter cleared it and a large tip away with a curious look at the generous patron. At the far end of a garden an orchestra was playing. And perhaps it was its heart rending cadence which made him dream of the girl. And so alluringly near did she Seem that he reached out his arms towards her, but the little table intervened, and she seemed to smile mockingly at his vain attempts. It's only a dream, he told himself bitterly. And surely the gods were cruel to torture him. So strange. When he looked again, she was still there. Well, when he tried to crush her in his arms, he would find but thin air, as one does in dreams. Yet, ah, it was true. As he held her close, he felt the beating of her heart, the clinging sweetness of her lips. Only the waiter saw, and he merely smiled. For many strange things happen in a roof garden. Wow. Batman was down bad.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. I was reading Emmanuel.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Oh, my God.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

It was dramatic. It was written dramatically. The person who wrote that, Janet. She knew what she was. Janet knew what she was doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I was transported.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Janet knew what she was doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wait, I'm so. Was that Janet? So this is fiction. Janet wrote that. Or this is a retelling of a true story.

[Emmanuel Joji]

They just put them in there. So I don't know if it's fiction or not. It could be a dramatic retelling of a true story, but it could also be totally made up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. It felt so real the way you said it. I was just right.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Do you think she was there?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. I was literally on the edge of my feet.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Was she there? Do you think she was?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I don't know. I think she's. This is my tea. I think Janet Reese is the woman, and I think she is. She knows that she stood him up, and so she's writing. It's like fanfic about her own. Our own curving of the sky. No, that's what I think it is. That's what I think it is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wait. That's brilliant. I see that.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wouldn't that be. I think that's what it is.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That'd be brutal. Wow. That would be brutal. Wait. Okay, wait. I had questions. I got very caught up. Okay. What do you think the story's saying about love?

[Nicole Hill]

Ooh.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Well, so one. It's interesting. They did get married. And I just think in any love scenario or love story scenario where you were talking about hypothetically getting with somebody, you're basically already with them. Yep. I think all of us have, like, a number of great loves in our lives. And, you know, you have those ones that every once in a while you can picture them, and it feels so clear what they meant to you or whatever, but not in your life. And I think everybody has a little. One of those little heartbreak somewhere within. And unfortunately, this man has him hugging thin Air in broad daylight. Damn.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He really.

[Emmanuel Joji]

As he was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The waiter's like, sir, are you okay legitimately?

[Emmanuel Joji]

What did it say to you about love, Zakiya?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I agree with you, Emmanuel. Like, if. If there is some kind of pact, it's like, just get together. We all like each other. Like, just do it. And I feel like that kind of thing. Situationship, messiness, but kind of like romantic messiness. That is timeless. It brought a smile to my face knowing, like, oh, people were like this even way back then, you know? And I also. I kind of love to see a man down.

[Emmanuel Joji]

It is. I do. Yeah, I do too. Who does that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

So that also kind of. I was like, lol.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay. Are we worried about what this says about black people? Like, how do we feel about what this will make the Future Citizens of 2030 think about Black people? Do we care? Are we pressed? What do we think?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

What does it say about black people? I don't know. The thing that I like about it is it makes us. If this was your representation of what black people are, you're like, wow, these guys really were kind of whimsical, you know, like. Yeah, in a time when a lot was happening, people were fleeing, like, real racial violence. Like, you still have time to, like, you know, go to an expensive restaurant where you don't even know the other person's gonna show up. You can still travel abroad and be somewhere on the continent, so to speak. Like, I don't know. I think it's pretty good.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I appreciate that this man is vulnerable enough to be like, I'm gonna show up to this meeting spot and I'm going to openly pine. I will have my arms outstretched to thin air, you know, and be open to rejection. I feel like this man was ahead of his time, and you don't see a lot of that kind of representation. And I don't know. And it just. They just seem also just so classy. Like, imagine just like, being like, oh, have you read so and so? Have you heard this book? It's like, that's my ex. I don't know. That just feels so.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Like, it's a good look.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Classy and cool.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know what I mean? I don't know. It's just kind of giving, like, high society, but also intellectual, but also kind of artsy people. I don't know.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Are you talking about yourself at this point?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yeah. Okay, so this is a maybe. We've got a maybe. I.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, if I say yes, does that. Then I'm voting Against mine.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yeah, cuz you would be voting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But this, I will say this is very promising. Like I. I would put this. It's dangling above the opening of the time capsule.

[Nicole Hill]

Our Ancestors Were Messy continues in just a moment. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. The Our Ancestors Were Messy spotlight. Now, when Nicole Hill says she has a story from back in the day, she really means back in the day. Snap Judgment.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Let's go to story number two. This is coming to us from the Tulsa Star. Let me tell you about the Tulsa Star. It started in 1912. It operated out of the Greenwood neighborhood in Oklahoma on what we call black Wall Street.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yes, indeed.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Its editor was A.J. smitherman, who was also justice of the Peace and an attorney. We've discussed this. You cannot just have one job. He was seen as a leading influence in both connecting and speaking on behalf of the 11,000 members of Tulsa's black community. And then across all of Oklahoma, they called the paper their voice. So Smitherman used that voice to advocate for self reliance and to celebrate anything that any black Tulsan or Oklahoma did at all. Like, if you hosted a nice tea party, birth trips out of town, your mom came to visit. Like, if you would put it on an Instagram story today, he would publish it in the paper. When the paper is talking about the outside world and everything that's going on, they're denouncing mob violence and lynchings across America. And they're criticizing Tulsa city administration for their discrimination against black citizens. AJ Smitherman hires a managing editor, the pioneer journalist, Theodore Bowman, who'd worked across Texas and Kansas and was now in Oklahoma. So together they grow the paper and it becomes like the town square of the black citizens of Tulsa. Everybody loves it. I like to picture the two of them, like, in their offices overlooking black Wall Street. Suspenders obviously toasting each other, being like, wow, here we are. We're really doing it.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wow.

[Emmanuel Joji]

But Theodore was not content with just being a managing editor. He's an ambitious man. So he's like, I gotta go, AJ and then he leaves and starts a rival paper called the Oklahoma Sun.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, no.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Then on May 31, 1921, a white mob descends on their community, and they target a and his home and the Tulsa Star offices. They destroy them both. And the black press across America reports on the violence in real time. And they call it, as we come to know, the Tulsa Race Massacre.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Tulsa Massacre.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah.

[Emmanuel Joji]

AJ Survives all of this. So I like to picture him going to Theo's home, who'd also survived. And Theo's like, AJ, what are you gonna do? And AJ's like, I have to leave because the white press and the mob is saying that they burned everything down and killed everybody because of me. Like, they had a lot of reasons, but they said in part it was because of the Star and because he was running his mouth, and that's why they targeted his house, and that's why they burned down the paper. So he's like, theo, what are you gonna do? And Theo's like, I'm a stay. Before he leaves, AJ sells his one time friend, one time rival, the Tulsa Star. And then AJ moves to Buffalo and he starts the Buffalo Star.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Theo goes to the ruins of the Tulsa Star, and he finds their printing press. And he takes that. And with that, he starts the Oklahoma Eagle. And with the help of the remaining black citizens of Tulsa, they keep the paper alive. And today, it is the oldest continuously published black newspaper in Oklahoma. Wow.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wow.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Should we sing the black national anthem real quick?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Emmanuel Joji]

We're gonna back up six years before the massacre, before the breakup. So Greenwood, black Wall street, they're thriving. Theo and aj, hand in hand, best friends forever. And in the midst of all their race business that they're attending to, they love to talk about love. And so each week, they published a little love story with an anecdote to entertain or maybe make their readers think. And Zakiya and I will be bringing you the next story. I feel like you should be Abigail.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wait, is that the daughter?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Mm.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. I was actually gonna say I wanted to play the mom, because I feel like. But I. But I. But I can.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

We gonna pop. I love this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I can play Abigail. I can play Abigail.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay. Yeah. Cause I feel like you could be. You can really bring the drama to your role.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, so this is from the Tulsa Star. It was published Saturday, October 23rd, 1915. This article is called Ended the Argument.

[Emmanuel Joji]

I'm playing the role of mama. Listen to me. Abigail said Mrs. Wise to her daughter. Remember, please, that I'm older than you. Wisdom comes only with age. Yes. Mama, why are you so cold to Mr. Willing? So to. He has my endorsement as a suitor.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes, he proposed.

[Emmanuel Joji]

What answer did you make?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I declined, but he said he wouldn't take that as final.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Of course not. He'll persist with my consent. Child, why did you refuse to go motoring with him? That's like driving. Because cars are a new thing. Why did you refuse to go motoring with him? He is dissatisfied over your manner, which I fear isn't nice. Has he Done anything to offend.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You wanted to kiss me and didn't.

[Emmanuel Joji]

You refused, Child, when a man pays court to a woman, to a girl and is serious about it, when his intentions are honorable, there's no harm in a kiss.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But, Mama, isn't a kiss something that should be mutual? Should a girl let a man kiss her when she has no wish to kiss the man?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Certainly, when the man is a man of character and honorable purposes. You mustn't forget that such a match as you can make isn't the fortune of every girl. If your dear father were with us, he'd advise you, as I'm advising you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Is a girl to marry a man much older than she is because he's honorable and has money?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Perhaps not solely, dear, but Mr. Willing isn't so old. Only 45, and I'm 20.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You were 20 when you married Papa, weren't you? I think you told me so.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And he was 22.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And you were both poor in worldly goods and Grandma wanted you to marry a rich baker.

[Emmanuel Joji]

But, my child, you don't realize that times and manners are very different now. Very different now. Everything is money. Everybody wants money. And persons without money are absolutely submerged.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But people fall in love still, don't they? Young people?

[Emmanuel Joji]

They may think they're in love sometimes, child, but life these days dissipates romance. Look at the divorce courts.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I'm talking about a man I don't care a box of candy about. When you were of my age. You almost heard.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Sorry, sorry.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Box of candy. About that I'm learning. We gotta bring that back. But I'm talking about a man I don't care a box of candy about. When you were of my age, you no doubt thought just as I'm thinking now. You've even told me you eloped with Papa to escape marrying an old man. You are in love.

[Emmanuel Joji]

You aren't in love, and the situation is different.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes, the situation is different. But I am in love with Charlie Lyman.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That boy with no money, no position.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No. But haven't we money enough?

[Emmanuel Joji]

What foolishness. And I let you go to the tennis court with that chap. Yes. Yesterday.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We didn't go to the tennis court.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Where did you go then?

[Unnamed Speaker]

We. We got married.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh, damn. She's like, ma, I am no longer a virgin. I'm a wedded woman. Sorry. Continue.

[Unnamed Speaker]

She said, I gave my box of candy to Charlie. I was gooped and gagged.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That's the ending.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's it. What a good ending. Cliffhanger. I wanted more.

[Emmanuel Joji]

What Is this saying about love?

[Unnamed Speaker]

How do I say this without completely putting all my business out there? I feel like I understand both sides. Like I said, you know, I'm an emotional cancer, so I usually love love. And so I. Abigail resonates with me like, oh, you know, who cares about money? It's all about love. Love is enough. But given the way this economy has been going and in our industry, all of our layoffs, I'm single. I've been struggling so badly financially that now I'm like, I get it like, sometimes. Cause I historically date unemployed stoners because I'm like, but I love their art. Or they're so funny. Or they're always available to hang out with my. You know, that's great. With my freelance schedule. Yeah, let's get high.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

The freelancer schedule lines up well with unemployed schedule.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes, Yes. I would love to get high at Prospect park at 2pm on a Tuesday. So that's how I had been dating. But then just. I've been. You know, these financial struggles are real, and I'm just like, damn, it would be really nice to have a partner who makes money and can help me out with these bills.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

You know what I mean? You went from stoner to. Let's build together real quick.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I went from stoner to capitalist. Like, who's the other half of my power couple? And I hate that term, but I'm like, oh, my God, how the ties had turned. So I don't know. I feel like this story has everything. Also the twist at the end that she was already married and, like, repeated her mother's footsteps. So, yeah, I was hooked.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I'm a sucker for, like, you know, little forbidden love story. I do think. Yeah. I don't know. I worry for that girl. I really, really do. I think that man is trifling.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You think Charlie is.

[Emmanuel Joji]

You don't like Charlie Lyman?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Listen, any man putting on my, you know, earlier 20th century hat here, you gotta come correct in it. You've gotta. You've gotta go to Mom Pa. That's true. Ask for that hand. You've got to come a call in there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

You've got to court. He didn't do any of that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

True.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

He just. And he knew that she. He had asked for permission to go with her somewhere else and then got married. They eloped. That's a no. No. She could be ostracized by her whole community for something like that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That is so true.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Wow.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I also. And you reminded me of another point I wanted to make. I also love this story, because especially for back then, I love that there's this young woman who has, like, a sense of agency and how she was like, kind of like bringing up conversations around consent. But I didn't think about it from that point of view.

[Emmanuel Joji]

It's like, I didn't think about it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What kind of man would just like, be messy like that? And it's just like.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

It'S giving, you know, different race, different time, but it's giving Mr. Wickham. You know what I mean?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Like, it's like, wait, can you explain who Mr. Wickham is?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

You know, Pride and Prejudice, bad villain guy, you know, out here taking young girls away from their families, the laws of romantic promises disgracing them and being forced into marriage with them just to retain some shred of their societal dignity.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Now we've turned on Charlie. Now we're against.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We're like, charlie.

[Emmanuel Joji]

I don't know what to believe, but Charlie was doing what her dad. So Charlie is probably a lot like her father. Because they eloped. She was supposed to marry that new baker.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

But then. But why? But here's the thing. We never get to the answer. Why is the what? Why doesn't the mom want something different for her? You know, and that. That's telling. That's telling, you know, but, you know, I hear what you're saying, Zakiyah. I do think there's a lot of self actualization there. In a way that made me feel like Charlie could be trifling. But in the end, like, you know, she'll be okay. She'll figure it out. Like, if she has to get into the curb, she'll be all right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

She has to touch the stove to know it's hot. And that's just. I feel like that's just. How old did she say she was? 22.

[Emmanuel Joji]

22.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah, exactly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that is so 22.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

And men. Back then back. Remember, we didn't live that long. Anyway, she doesn't even have to. If it doesn't work out, she's just gonna last like another, like 20, 30 years.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That man will be dead. Like, super. We have got one last story coming out of the Colorado Statesman again, but how are we feeling about this one? Is it dangling? Is it out of the time capsule? What are we feeling right now?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Listen, it feels real to me. You know what I mean? The other one is very romantic. This one is very, like. Here's what it was really like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The other one was giving, like, romance novel that you would find in CBS or the airport. You know what I mean, like no shade. But it did feel very fantastic.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Nah, it was giving Hudson News.

[Emmanuel Joji]

It really was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It really was giving Hudson News. Yes.

[Nicole Hill]

SNAP returns a special story from a special someone during a special time when the Snap Judgment Our Ancestors Were Messy continues. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Ken Washington, and today we're spotlighting love stories from Our Ancestors Were Messy. And next up, host Nicole Hill brings a story of a very special black Valentine's Day Snap Judgment.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay, well, here's our last story out of the Colorado Statesman, published February 10, 1917. Her helpful Valentine by Lee Shippey Feldon had found the one girl, Nellie Hastings. Nellie had great lustrous eyes. When Felden recited his own poetry, she would gaze intently into his face with a rapt expression. When he finished reciting, she would be silent a moment and then murmur, how exquisite. Belden's family and I looked on his romance with extreme disfavor, but he would brook no criticism from his relatives. That was why he happened to be lodging with me in the studio temporarily. Being only a friend, I knew Feldon much better than his family did and was wise enough not to show my disfavor. I knew Nellie, too, and felt sure her union with Felden would not be best for all concerned. Felden was really a fine chap. He was original. He did not even imitate other men in their vices as most otherwise original men do. He had a fine scorn for philandering and excesses. I felt sure the girl for him would have to be a modern day Athena. But that is just what he thought Nellie was. She has a wonderful soul, he would cry. It looks out of her eyes. Every glance is a lyric, every steadfast gaze. A perfect poem when a man who tells you his love is too deep for words. Gushes forth like that about 30 times a day. It usually ends in a life sentence. There's no saving him. Still. We tried hard, the family and I. The family pleaded and stormed and threatened. I tried sundry strategic moves, but all proved futile. Felden and Nellie decided to marry in May. It was early in February when they definitely decided on the date, and then the family and I lost hope. But a few days later he came in looking so agitated I felt hopeful of calamitous news. His hair was disheveled, his collar awry, his tie humpbacked. He paid no attention to me, but began at once to pace the floor feverishly, muttering unintelligibly as he walked and stopping frequently to claw his hair frenziedly finally, he sat and began to write. I could not restrain an exclamation of profound disgust. So it's a mere poem you're working on? I sneered. I thought something had happened. A mere poet poem. He cried. This poem should be an echo and a light onto eternity. It should symbolize the most perfect love which ever existed between human beings. St. Valentine's Day is coming, you dolt. That day I am to pour out my heart in a poem to Nellie, and she hers in a poem to me. I exclaimed. I didn't know she wrote such stuff. He said. Her every thought is a poem. For a week, Feldon labored incessantly over that poem. He would hop out of bed in the middle of the night to change a word or to put in a comma. He revised it a dozen times every day. It was truly a beautiful thing. When he sent it away by messenger the morning of St. Valentine's Day, the same messenger brought back Nellie's valentine. What sounded like the gasps of a dying man called me to Feldon's side. Five minutes later, he had fallen back, pale and limp on a couch. I propped up his head and ran for a stimulant, but he waved me away. Don't save me, he pleaded. Life is all too taunting a mockery. I thought I had found a soul perfectly responsive to harmony and melody and beauty and to symmetry. But just look at what she wrote. He held up Nellie's valentine. And I read this valentine to you. Doth say I'm yours all the time, forever and for yea. So when this you see, do not forget to remember me, your own Nellie, and like Nellie's like Nellie, so that it's two syllables. Wow.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

That's it.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That's it. That's the poem.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

You know what? Honestly, him a little. What a snob.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Wait, no. The story keeps going, but that's the poem.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Oh, okay. So I'm like, that's the end of the story. My bad. Sorry. Continue.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Feldon shamelessly deserted Nelly, leaving for an extended trip through the west without stopping to say goodbye.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Damn.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Both his family and I felt greatly relieved shortly after, I married Nelly myself. And ever since then, the dear girl has made handsome living for both of us by writing lyrics for popular songs. The end.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wait, what?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

What?

[Unnamed Speaker]

What?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wow. Wow. That man played himself. But I do get it. I do get it. Wait, what do you mean? It's not like, I don't know. This man was like, oh, I'm gonna get such a wonderful poem, and I've written such a wonderful thing. Whatever. And then, you know, the poem he got was corny, and it was. So he got the ick. He. He did. And he just. So he's like, nah, fam. But then. Not the. Not that he wrote it being like, yeah, so I married that girl, and that got me a lot of money. Like, I. Yeah. I. I don't know. I. I couldn't be with someone who's. I don't respect.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I feel like that's very difficult.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I don't know how you could navigate that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Like, I want my person to be my biggest fan, and I want to be their biggest fan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, I, too, would fall out and just be like. My friends were like, what's wrong? Like, he's cringy. I have the ache. No, getting the ick is debilitating. It is so. And it's like, it, like, destabilizes you. You thought this was your person. All of a sudden you're, like, disgusting. So. I get that. I get that dramatic, but I, too, am dramatic. So. And for the best friend to swoop in. Where did that come from? Like, was it, like.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Twist at the end?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I mean, have you ever swooped like that? Like, waited?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Have I swooped?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah. Well, I mean, swooped as in, like, you know, you wait a respectable amount of time, and then you're like, well, you know, you. You got the ick, so. Oh, I've never done that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I've never. I'm somebody. You've swooped, Emmanuel.

[Emmanuel Joji]

You're like, what's the big deal?

[Unnamed Speaker]

You're a swooper.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Who did you swoop? So I would. I would not characterize this as swooping, but, yeah, you know, I've dated people who've dated my friends.

[Emmanuel Joji]

We've done that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Have you talked to your friend about it before? Did you give them a heads up.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

On one occasion where it was a serious relationship? Yes. But the other times you didn't. I mean, I told them they were in my life. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm going out with so and so.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the guy friends were like, go for it.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah. Well, they were like, oh, okay, that's what you want to do. But not in a. Like, oh, our friendships are. It's more than just, like, I told you why I got the ick kind of way. And each time they were right. They were totally right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Wait, so.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. Why did you. Why did you want to swoop? Because they were hot and you're like, maybe with me it'll be different.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. I have so many follow up questions.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I wish it was more complicated than that, but that's good for me.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. I've never. I've never swooped.

[Emmanuel Joji]

We do need to make some decisions.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, right.

[Emmanuel Joji]

It is decision time.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Okay.

[Emmanuel Joji]

We only get to put one timeless message to the citizens of 2030.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

That's hard.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That is so hard.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Because I do want the citizens of 2030 to know that you can swoop and make lots of money as a result.

[Emmanuel Joji]

That's really important to you.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

It's important, man. The young men of tomorrow need to know that girl can make you rich. We're losing recipes. Okay. We're losing recipes. Honestly, I'm gonna. I'm. I can't believe I'm saying this out loud. I'm gonna root against my own story. I'm gonna go for that one.

[Emmanuel Joji]

What?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

I'm gonna go for the Swoop. I'm gonna go for the Swoop.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The Swoop representation.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Her Helpful Valentine. Your vote is for Her Helpful Valentine?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yes, the Helpful Valentine. For sure.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Zakiya, what is your vote?

[Unnamed Speaker]

That one's good, but I'm biased, I think, like, my story, because it is kind of a classic tug of the heart, you know, for love, for money. You know, that's. I feel like such a. Like a timeless thing. The mother daughter of it all. That also. So I like that. It's also not just like, about romantic love, but it's also about a mother's love for her daughter and wanting better.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

For her daughter and how that love gets absolutely stomped.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. And it is funny because we don't know how it ends, but we just know. Charlie.

[Emmanuel Joji]

We decide. Charlie, man.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Not just that, but also the daughter is like, I don't even love or respect you enough to. I just got married last night.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

What do you think of that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I love the messiness because mother daughter relationships are messy like that. I feel like across, like, race time culture. It's just the mother daughter relationship.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Okay, let me ask you this, both of you.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yes.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Somebody opens this time capsule, right? We don't have, like, time for dissertation, so you can't do a whole. This is the backstory. This is the context. Da, da, da, da. They're gonna read this paper and hopefully get curious enough to look into the history of black love and black people. Which story do you think will inspire all the people of 2030 to.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

To do that?

[Emmanuel Joji]

Google more and like, really dig into the story of black people and lead them to, like, this is who we were in the 1920s.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, I would just say so if this is where a time capsule to be open in 2030, our attention spans are only. What, like, don't they say like, seven seconds? I will say that last article, I did get a little lost because it was very, like, wordy. The other story, it was clear. We had a clear character's, you know, clear narrative. So I feel like if the goal is to capture the attention of people in 2030 and get them curious enough to be like, I need to learn more. I would say I'm biased, but I would say my story.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

You don't say.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I do say, man.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

What to say. Wow, you make a good point. Because their attention span, 2030, which I should know. I'm talking about it like, it's like something I'm not going to live to see. But it's just a couple years away.

[Emmanuel Joji]

You'll know.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

We have clues now, but, yeah, like you said, attention span's ready at seven seconds. It'll probably be three personally for me in, like, a year, so. Oh, man. Yeah. The second one's Paul, but Okay, Zakiya, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Have we made our decision?

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah, yeah, I think we have. Which is crazy because. Yeah, swooping. Swooping is important, but, you know, swooping is important.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What was mine? Mine was the tol Ended the argument.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Out of the Tulsa Star. I think that it sounds like that is our winner. Ended the argument out of Tulsa Star. Our official.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Yeah. And the history of the Tulsa Star. All this history is important, but the history of the Tulsa Star, I feel like, is super, super important.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes. Like, I just given, you know. Yeah. The historical context of Tulsa, black Wall Street. I love how this story was on theme with that, like, black people, economy, money, but, like, with, like, a twist. So I feel like it's also just very creatively on theme without being so on the nose. Cause she's like, money's important, but what about love? So, yeah, that's my vote.

[Emmanuel Joji]

All right, we have a winner. Emmanuel, you've switched sides. We can't believe it. Nobody saw it coming. It's unbelievable.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

But it's done, it's finished.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I just love that each one of these stories truly was so nuanced and messy in a way that, like, you know, messy in a way that I like in the sense that it's like, we're not always just, you know, black excellence and perfectionists and martyrs and this and that. Like, it's really cliche to say But I genuinely loved how multifaceted and relatable each story was.

[Zakiya Gibbons]

Black people just, I don't know, I just love. I love it. I love every part of it. And I love, yeah, like you said, Zakiyat, like, I love the mess. And like, yeah, I don't know, it's just good to know that, like, people were swooping.

[Emmanuel Joji]

Most importantly. Most importantly, they were swooping.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Most definitely, people were swooping.

[Nicole Hill]

Thank you, Nicole Hill. And thank you to everyone featured in these hilariously historic stories. If you want to hear more, check out the podcast Our Ancestors Were Messy show about our ancestors and all their drama. There is so much more where this came from. It's available right now wherever you get your podcast. This show was written, researched and produced by Nicole Hill, the charismatic wonder guest of the hour, where Zakiya Gibbons and Emmanuel Joji. The executive producer is A.A. hernandez, the story producer is Martina Abrahams. Olunga research producer is Chioki Iinsen. Scripts were edited by Shantae Hill, artwork by Aselika Smith, and the sound design for that piece was by Helena de Grode. Thank you so very much. We'll have links to all that is Our Ancestors Were Messed Up. See on our website snapjudgment.org if you missed even a moment, know that entire world of SNAP storytelling awaits. In fact, we recently dropped a brand new series. If you haven't heard it, it dives into the world of incarcerated women firefighters battling the flames in California. Hosted by snap's own Ana Sussman. It's called Fire Escape. On podcast platforms everywhere. Right now, KQED in San Francisco is SNAP Judgment's orbiting hall of Justice. On Team snap, the union representative, producers, artists, editors and engineers are members of the national association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians, Communications workers of America, AFL CIO Local 51. And this is not the news. No way is this the news. In fact, you could go back in time to read something that was once called a newspaper. Remember those? And you would still not be as far away from the news as this is. This is prx.