Bo Walsh (4:03)

Dan helped build it over 40 years ago when he was a sheet metal worker.

Dan Rossi (4:07)

And I remember welding all the parts on it and how hard it was, because if you know anything about welding, as soon as you make heat, the metal starts to bend. And it was so hard to keep this thing so that, you know. And I'm saying that's where it is. I'm looking. It was a beautiful job, but you can't compare building that to some of this art. You can't do it. It's a different ballgame.

Bo Walsh (4:29)

Dan and I walked past the ancient tombs and medieval swords out of the met and down the steps.

Dan Rossi (4:34)

Okay, we'll get out of here.

Bo Walsh (4:36)

Where they're outside surrounded by tourists and New Yorkers all grabbing a bite. It stands his hot dog cart.

Dan Rossi (4:47)

And then you come out and you see my carts. That's a pretty nice thing, you know. Wow.

Bo Walsh (4:53)

It hits you right in the face.

Dan Rossi (4:54)

Yeah. It took me a long time to put ketchup on a hot dog. New York, you never heard of ketchup on it? Never ever. Mole musta. That's it.

Bo Walsh (5:03)

Dan's cart location sits in one of the most coveted vending spots in all of New York city.

Dan Rossi (5:09)

Richest block there is. Look at who's better than me, right?

Bo Walsh (5:14)

And just to keep this spot, Dan Rossi has been sleeping in his old white painters van right across the street for the past 12 years.

Dan Rossi (5:22)

Oh, my God. I crushed the nerve canal in the lower back and in my neck. Sleeping probably did it.

Bo Walsh (5:35)

When was the last time you slept in a bed?

Dan Rossi (5:39)

I can't even tell you that. You know, I usually get three or four nights a year. Probably couldn't fall asleep in a bed anymore. Most mornings I wake up and say, what the hell am I doing here? You know, every time I'm doing this, every. I say the same thing every day. And every day, I'm back for Dan.

Bo Walsh (5:57)

His story starts in the 80s when a friend who knew he was good with his hands asked him to build a hot dog cart.

Dan Rossi (6:03)

I never really looked at a hot dog cart. You know, it's something you see, but you never really examine it to how to make it. So I said, well, let me go take a look. I went and I found one. I said, well, this is not a big deal.

Bo Walsh (6:15)

Dan built the cart easily, was able to sell it, and walked away with $1,000 and saw an opportunity here.

Dan Rossi (6:22)

What I really wanted to do just wanted to set up a small shop, maybe three, four, five men, and make a good living, that's all.

Bo Walsh (6:31)

So Dan hired a crew, and Dan and his crew started making all kinds of carts. Hot dog carts, ice cream carts, fruit carts.

Dan Rossi (6:39)

I said, you know what? I'm hustling and hustling and hustling. If I had the permits, well, then I can actually build carts and put them on the street.

Bo Walsh (6:47)

That's when one of his clients, who had 399 permits, offered to sell Dan his business overnight. He went from just building carts to leasing them out for $5 a day all over the streets of New York.

Dan Rossi (7:00)

I would have to say the average cart at the time was probably making 3, 400 bucks a day. That was then. That was good money.

Bo Walsh (7:07)

Soon he had over 300 people each running their own small business.

Dan Rossi (7:11)

Every immigrant in the world, every country, you name it. A big influx came with Afghan immigrants and Russian Jewish immigrants. And it was at the time of the war between Russia and Afghanistan. So it was pretty rough getting them in the same room together. Our leases were going great. We had a great customer base.

Bo Walsh (7:34)

When a company offered to sell Dan another hundred permits, Dan jumped at it. Now he had 499, the most in the city.

Dan Rossi (7:43)

It felt good, that position I was in, you know, and we were making money. My men were all making money. Everybody was in a good position.

Bo Walsh (7:51)

Life was especially good for Dan and his family. He got a house on six acres out in Greenwich, Connecticut, for his wife and four daughters. It was all a dream for a guy who had never really known what weekends were.

Dan Rossi (8:03)

I took my wife out every Saturday night. We went to dinner. I mean, it was like we were in a different world. I said, this is how real people live, you know, not guys that are hustling every minute of the day trying to see how they're going to do. This is a normal life. I said, we came from nothing, my wife and I, from really nothing. And I told my wife, I said, look what we did. And we did it right.

Bo Walsh (8:25)

While Dan Rossi was enjoying success, a rising, powerful real estate tycoon was making a lot of noise.

Dan Rossi (8:33)

We would hear on the radio this guy whining all day long. This guy trump, you know, I love getting even with people, but I will swipe.

Glen Washington (8:42)

You love getting even with.

Dan Rossi (8:44)

Oh, absolutely. And all we did was complain about the vendors, and it was relentless.

Bo Walsh (8:51)

Trump didn't like the vendors clocking the sidewalks by his Fifth Avenue high rise.

Dan Rossi (8:55)

They're making a bazaar. It looks like we're in Egypt or something. Look at all this crap out here. I mean, you can't walk. It was all nonsense. I said, who is this guy? I didn't even know who he was.

Bo Walsh (9:06)

But then Trump went further.

Dan Rossi (9:07)

Then he started to talk about the vets.

Bo Walsh (9:10)

Dan was a Vietnam vet himself. When Dan started his business, he made sure to hire vets.

Dan Rossi (9:16)

If you came to me and you said, dan, can you help my cousin? He's got no money. Take the cot. Go ahead, go to work. Any disabled vet walked in my place, got it for free. Just a handshake, that's all.

Bo Walsh (9:26)

And now Trump was coming after a special right that protects vets in New York.

Dan Rossi (9:31)

The one thing that nobody understands is that a disabled vet has no restricted streets. I can go anywhere I want, any street I want.

Bo Walsh (9:39)

That right to vend with no location restrictions has been a state law in New York since 1894, when it was designed to create economic opportunities for Civil War veterans returning home.

Dan Rossi (9:50)

It was such a little thing to give them, but it was a great thing because it made people feel like they were productive again. You might not think vending is a big deal, but some of these guys is the biggest deal in the world because they can't work for anybody. Nobody's gonna help them, and they're doing it on their own, and they're paying their bills. I mean, that's a great accomplishment for somebody who's been cast aside.

Bo Walsh (10:15)

So Dan wasn't too worried about Donald Trump until he picked up his morning paper with the headline that said 94 streets in Midtown Manhattan were now closed to all vendors, including disabled vets.

Dan Rossi (10:29)

All I kept getting was calls from everybody, you know, all my customers calling me, damn, what's going on? What the hell's going on? I don't know. So I says, I might as well find out from the guy. It's our special Friday edition with the.

Glen Washington (10:41)

Mayor of New York City.

Dan Rossi (10:43)

And now, ladies and gentlemen, His Honor, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. Good morning. This is Mayor Rudy Giuliani, and today, for the first time, I'm in the studio.

Bo Walsh (10:55)

So a few days later, Dan called into Mayor Rudy Giuliani's radio show to get some answers.

Dan Rossi (11:00)

I call him up, and I wished him and his family a happy Easter, you know, and I said, look, I'm with the vending business, and you guys have closed 94 streets, you know. And I says, why? Why would you do that? I mean, no, you know, we're up to date on laws. We know what's going on. He says. He says, I don't know anything about that. I says, well, maybe you don't, but it happened. I said, what could we do? He says, wait a minute. He says, if they close 94 streets, I'm the mayor, I should know that. And he says, well, I'm going to get to the bottom.

Bo Walsh (11:30)

But days later, the streets remained closed.

Dan Rossi (11:33)

I organized, I went up there and argued with them.

Bo Walsh (11:36)

That's when Dan became an unofficial spokesperson for the vendors. He showed up at city council meetings to speak out against the street closures.

Dan Rossi (11:44)

I said, what you're doing is crazy. I said, all you gotta do is limit the number of cards to two on a block. I mean, you got thousands of blocks and you got only a few vendors.

Bo Walsh (11:53)

And to defend the rights of disabled vets to vend. He even went up to Albany to go before the state legislature.

Dan Rossi (12:00)

It's bad enough you took away their livelihoods. Here they are, they're all making big six figure numbers. I mean, that's the biggest insult in the world.

Bo Walsh (12:10)

And now Dan was making his own headlines in the New York Times.

Dan Rossi (12:14)

The New York times came in and they did like a whole full page for me. And right on top of it, you know, the New York push got king. And the worst thing about it is whenever I saw those old movies about the kings and everything, and they would say, the king is dead, long live the king. I said, look at this. The king is going to be dead and somebody else is going to be the king. I didn't like that.

Bo Walsh (12:37)

The article questioned whether Dan should be allowed to own as many permits as he did 16% of the 3,100 that were out at the time.

Dan Rossi (12:46)

They said, sure, this guy's got 500 permits, and then nobody else can get one. Well, I'm not stopping them from getting one. The city is. This is a cap.

Bo Walsh (12:55)

New York City had a cap in place to limit the number of carts on the streets.

Dan Rossi (12:59)

There were no more permits. You couldn't get any.

Bo Walsh (13:02)

To Dan, this was a problem that the city had created, not him.

Dan Rossi (13:06)

I gotta give up my 500 permits so they can get them. Why don't they just make 500 more? I'm laughing, but I should have been saying, holy Christ, I'm in trouble.

Bo Walsh (13:19)

Then the New York Daily News accused him of making a fortune exploiting the vendors who rented his carts.

Dan Rossi (13:24)

It was the Way they were talking about me, this guy's greedy. He wants to eat by himself. Oh, I got a lot of permits and I made some money. And what did I do wrong? Tell me what I'm doing wrong. I'm just a vendor guy. You know, I might have had the largest vending company in New York, but compared to these people, I was nothing. You know, I was like a pebble compared to the beach. It was nothing. I remember sitting down with one deputy mayor and he says, you know, you back away from these guys, meaning, you know, the vets. And I says, that's not going to happen. He says, well, you know, we're going to bankrupt you. He says. I said, well, you do what you got to do, and if you take me down, you take me down. What can I tell you?

Glen Washington (14:17)

Oh, it's lonely at the top. Snappers. When we return, will Dan Rossi's pushcart kingdom be toppled, or can he protect the throne? Stay tuned. Snap Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. You're listening to the hot dog king of New York episode. When last we left, Dan Rossi was fighting the ban on street vendors in Manhattan. And that has put him in the crosshairs of some of New York City's most rich, most powerful Snap Judgment.

Dan Rossi (15:26)

You can't vend anywhere that you want to. A civilized, decent city can't exist if people get to decide where they're going to do things. And the city has no ability to say, there are too many people here. It's too crowded there. This affects public safety, the ability to use the streets.

Bo Walsh (15:41)

When Dan heard Mayor Giuliani was holding a press conference about the street closures, he decided to show up with his attorney.

Dan Rossi (15:49)

Every camera you could think of, every news station you could think of was there. Behind Giuliani was all these big boards, five or six of these big three by five boards. And they had different kind of graphs on them. And on each one was my name on top of each one. And he, like, carved him up. He owns this much of this industry. It hit me like a brick when I saw my name on all these posters. I said, what is this? The hell is going on here? He completely reversed everything to make me the bad guy. So now one of the Reporters says, okay, he owns 499 permits. What has he done wrong? And he couldn't answer. And that was the end of the thing. And they were leaving. And I get up with my attorney. I walk over the table, and I said, you know, I'm Dan Rossi. He didn't know me. He never saw me. I'm Dan Rossi. Who do you think you were talking about? You don't know me. You don't know what I've done in my life. Who are you to talk like this? So he's got his head looking down at the ground, and he don't know what to do. And I says, oh, you didn't have any problem looking at these TV cameras. Look at me in the eye, and he's looking down and says, you know what it is? You're just a punk. And I'm going over the table. My lawyer grabs me, and he's holding me back. And Giuliani runs out the door. And I said. I turn around. He said, are you crazy, Dan? You can't go attack a mayor. I says, why not? He's attacked me for the last half hour. Why not? He's going to destroy my life. I can't go smack him in the head.

Bo Walsh (17:17)

That same week, Dan was in his office when he noticed across the street a camera.

Dan Rossi (17:23)

It was on a tripod, this big damn camera with the telescopic lens pointed.

Bo Walsh (17:28)

Directly at his shop.

Dan Rossi (17:30)

You saw the guy. I mean, it wasn't like he was trying to tied. Look at this. I said, oh, my God. And I says, now nobody's gonna walk in this door.

Bo Walsh (17:40)

And then the phone call started.

Dan Rossi (17:43)

We knew the phone was bugged, but one day I just picked it up and I got the click. And as soon as I heard that double click, I knew exactly what was going on. And I said, look at this. Look at this. But then we started to get threatening phone calls. So everybody get a phone call. You know, we're gonna do this to you. We're gonna do that to you. Cursing, you know, we're gonna cut this off and we're gonna do this.

Bo Walsh (18:06)

Dan knew he had put a target on his back. But the real threat to everything he built came from the New York City council. They passed the one vendor one permit law. It would later be referred to as the Dan Rossi law.

Dan Rossi (18:21)

What the law said was, you can't have more than one. You can't lease a permit. You can't lease a car with a permit.

Bo Walsh (18:26)

Overnight. Dan lost all but one of is 499 permits.

Dan Rossi (18:31)

What am I gonna do with one permit? What can I do with it? You know, I remember telling my wife we could walk now. And she says, well, I know you're not walking, and you gotta fight. They can't do this and say this about you, because then it's true. They said, ange, you don't understand. I said, they'll take our shoes. They got everybody in their pockets. She says, so let them take our shoes.

Bo Walsh (18:55)

And they do. When Dan tries to go back to building carts, all of his carts are failing the health inspection.

Dan Rossi (19:02)

Well, how can you fail it? I mean, I set this inspection program up. Everything that you're doing is what I taught you guys how to do years ago. And the inspector says, these are Dan Ross. These carts failed him. I was really down, you know, I was very. Getting very depressed. The few Jewish customers I had, I mean, the orthodox Jew, they were very religious. And one kid comes up. I'm sitting in my office all by myself. The place is a ghost town. There's nothing going on. And he comes in. I says, you know, how you doing? But I can't help you. Those days are gone. He says, no, I didn't come up here to get help. I came up to see how you're doing. I know how hard it's been for you. I know you. He says, I know that everything they're saying about you is lies. I know they got people out there lying about you. We know it. We hear it on the street. And I just want to make sure you're okay. And, you know, it touched me. It really did, that somebody cared. And he says, I want you to come and talk to my rabbi. And I says, I'm a Catholic, and I just couldn't do it. But it was enough that he came and he thought about me. That was something. I was in the toilet and my guys were sitting around doing nothing. It was terrible. And I says, I can't do it no more. I can't do it. There's nothing coming in. Week after week. We're here. Nothing's happening. I says, I gotta shut it down.

Bo Walsh (20:24)

Dan laid off his entire crew and closed his businesses doors for good.

Dan Rossi (20:30)

We're closed, dog. You gotta go next door. I failed for everybody. I failed for my family. I failed for these guys. And that was the end of it.

Bo Walsh (20:38)

But Dan kept fighting. He went into debt, trying to appeal the one vendor one permit law for nothing. His wife suffered a stroke. He lost the house in Greenwich. And the man who everyone called the pushcart king ended up living out of A van.

Dan Rossi (20:54)

We had no choice. We had nowhere to go. You know, it was just me and my wife and the van I borrowed. I mean, I had just given up on trying to make a living. I just gave up. I didn't know how to do it anymore. I'm saying, here I am. I reached in my pocket and there was a roll of bills, and now I can't find 50 cents for a newspaper. You know, it was what happened to me. I just couldn't put it together. I resorted to borrowing money from people, and I never did that. I never did that.

Bo Walsh (21:29)

Eventually, family did take Dan and his wife in, and Dan went back to trying to hustle side jobs to make a few bucks. Then Dan got a call from a disabled vet. He had a hot dog cart right in front of the metropolitan museum of art. But he told Dan he was being pushed out.

Dan Rossi (21:48)

And I said, well, let me go down there and see what the problem is. There's not much I could do, but at least let me see what the problem is. They took this little cushman scooter and put it in his spot. I'm talking to him and I said, you know, why don't you just move a few feet? It's not that big of a difference. But what he was saying was, they're taking away my dignity, my rights to vend where I'm allowed. He didn't have it in him to come back the next day. And then it hit me, and I'm sitting there and I'm saying, you know, I have one permit that they left me with. I says, if I went and got a cart and I put it over here, and at the end of the day, I made 100 bucks. I made 100 bucks. I actually said to myself, dan, you want to really get back into this fight? And to me, that thought lasted about one second, you know. And I says, where do I get a cart?

Bo Walsh (22:40)

The man who had built hundreds of carts now had to borrow one.

Dan Rossi (22:43)

I'll tell you, it was very humiliating to me personally. I was the largest in the history of the city. And here I am borrowing a cart. Very, very humbling. I said to him, I said, I can't believe that I'm doing this, you know. I said, but I gotta eat. So what do you want on that jumbo? My way of doing it.

Bo Walsh (23:09)

Yeah, I want the damn special.

Dan Rossi (23:11)

There's only one way to make it spicy mustard, sauerkraut, and just a taste of onions, and that's it. Don't get crazy. I never served a hot dog in my life, you know? And here I am. I just fell right into it. How hard could this be? Good part about it is, no matter what you put on it, you always taste the hot dog. It's a good hot dog.

Bo Walsh (23:35)

From the first hot dog that he served in front of the Met, it was a battle with the cops.

Dan Rossi (23:41)

I told the guys, look, guys, I know the law. I'm a disabled vet. I said, just leave me alone. I'm not looking for trouble. They just need to get on my feet.

Bo Walsh (23:48)

And since he's been there, well, I'm not gonna leave.

Dan Rossi (23:51)

We can't allow you to come in. I'm in already. Right, and that's why you're receiving. They were relentless. Three times a day. I mean, after a while, I said, you know, guys, I'm starting to get pissed off. I could be in any park.

Sergeant Harrison (24:06)

Sergeant Harrison, do you remember that saying? He can be in any park.

Dan Rossi (24:09)

Read it.

Glen Washington (24:11)

Read it.

Dan Rossi (24:14)

You come back again. Something. We're gonna do something. So I said, next time, I'm moving 10ft closer. As they came, they talking to me. I just took the car and pushed it 10ft closer. Talk to me again. I push another 10ft closer. When I get in the middle, I'm not moving. I'm letting you know now stop what you're doing. They wouldn't stop. Got in front of the Met, right in the middle. And now what? They arrested me.

Sergeant Harrison (24:39)

Last time, we were put in handcuffs.

Bo Walsh (24:42)

Brought to the precinct, received the summons, took the car.

Dan Rossi (24:46)

And you're gonna have to do that again. And you're gonna have to do it again and again. Again. And to you, allow me to exercise my rights under the law.

Bo Walsh (24:53)

Dan's still battling with the cops.

Dan Rossi (24:56)

So now we have a disagreement, yes. I'm in the park. You want me to leave. We got a rescue for me to leave. Then we'll push it up. That's it.

Bo Walsh (25:05)

Dan has been arrested six times for vending in front of the Met. He's been issued over 350 tickets.

Dan Rossi (25:12)

I just wanted to go to work, make a few hundred dollars, save enough to get an apartment, and we start living our life again, you know? But when they started to come at me, I mean, I'm the kind of guy that after a while. Now you want to get in a fight, I'll get in a fight if that's what you want. I don't back away from nobody when you're harassing me and trying to abuse me. It's not going to work. This is all I got left not that it amounts to much, but it's all I got left.

Bo Walsh (25:42)

Every night Dan lays down in his van parked across the street from the Met, hoping to get a few hours of sleep before doing it all again the next day.

Dan Rossi (25:55)

I don't even know what day it is sometimes. I asked my daughter, I asked one of the guys, you know, today, Thursday, Friday, I just get lost in the time. And the worst part about it, I don't get to see my wife. I keep Sunday afternoon open for her so I could take her to get a brunch and we can have a few hours together. And then my daughters will take her down and she'll stay with me at the Met for a few hours now and then. Hello. Hi. Six. Six hot dogs.

Glen Washington (26:27)

Six hot dogs.

Dan Rossi (26:28)

And fries. And fries.

Bo Walsh (26:31)

Why are you still out there and what keeps you going?

Dan Rossi (26:35)

Well, I'm out there because I still have to make a living, you know, you still gotta keep a woof over, my wife said. And what keeps me going is just a day's work, you know, plus the fact that, you know, I just can't let them beat me. First hot dog, mustard, ketchup. One without the next one. Ketchup and mustard.

Glen Washington (27:18)

A huge thank you to Dan Rossi for sharing his story with the snap. At 73 years young, Dan continues to hold down his spot in front of the Met. So if you're ever nearby, stop by and salute the New York City Hot Dog King. Tell em I said to ask for ketchup. Actually, actually you might not want to do that now. There is so much we couldn't share with you about Dan's experience. To find out more, check out his new memoir, the New York Hot Dog From Rags to Riches to Less Than Rags. You can find it, as well as links to all the Hot Dog King stuff, Dan Rossi's social media, all of it@stampjudgment.org Additional thanks to our friends at Vice, whose series Munchies featured dan back in 2019 and was a big inspiration for this story. You can find a link to that video on our site as well. Snapjudgment.org the hot dog King of New York. It was scored by Clay Xavier and the story was produced by Bo Walsh. Now, in 2020, when Dan reopened his cart for business during the pandemic, the New York Times once again came calling, this time with an article declaring that the Hot Dog King was back. Producer Bo Walsh was able to catch up with some of New York City's finest food vendors to hear a few words about the King.

Dan Rossi (28:55)

I met Dan Rossi once I seen him. He's where I get the footprint from to do what I have to do, which is sleep out here, move my car early, and then 12 o'clock at night and sleep out here, my spot. That's why I, you know, this. This is what I do. I just thought it was cool that, yeah, Maureen was sticking up to the city.

Glen Washington (29:15)

Like he was the only one there that was legit, that he was doing it.

Dan Rossi (29:20)

The man still do what he's doing, still strong. That's all that matters, you know, that's all material. Whatever they took for him is a material, and he's still here. We see every day, you know, like, how he does sleep in the van. He tries to, you know, help everybody, you know, like, he's got a really big heart. Other people want him out of here, and we always have said that that's not going to happen because there are veterans here that is going to help him out. He was really the king, the Hot Dog King.

Glen Washington (30:03)

Now, what Bo didn't tell you was that the legend of the Hot Dog King, Dan Rossi, goes beyond, beyond just the five boroughs. It spread all the way across the pond to the uk, where the Burner Band recorded this tribute song for the King. You couldn't take my everything. Find the link to it on our website, snapjudgment.org okay, after stuffing your face with hot dogs, get ready. We're going to summer camp when Snap Judgment continues. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Glen Washington, and Snap is. Before we even get started with this next story, I want you to know that we've changed the names to protect the innocent. Today we're about to take you to one of the scariest places ever. Summer camp.

Caitlin (31:09)

It's three days before the big dance at Camp Discovery in northern Minnesota. Camp's in full swing. They're singing around the campfire. Kids are at Waterfront. They're playing those trust games where you get blindfolded and have to walk around cones.

Dan Rossi (31:25)

Right.

Sergeant Harrison (31:28)

Left, scored.

Caitlin (31:30)

But there's also so much excitement about the dance. Everybody's scrambling to get a date, and there are more girls than boys.

Sergeant Harrison (31:39)

There's so much drama. Oh, my goodness.

Caitlin (31:42)

Caitlin's 13. She's into gymnastics. She has long, dark brown hair. She's popular, and she says if you want to stay up on the drama. Who's asked who? Who got dumped? There's one place to be if you go play basketball.

Sergeant Harrison (31:56)

Usually you're like, the basketball crowd is kind of the. It's kind of like the gossip area. That's where most of the things happen.

Caitlin (32:05)

And the negotiations of who's gonna ask who are kind of complicated.

Sergeant Harrison (32:10)

So it's kind of like oh, I want him, wait, I also want him kind of thing. And then you have one friend who wants to go with him, but it's like wait, I wanted him too. So should you say yes because you're my friend or.

Caitlin (32:25)

Most of the boys seem like they could care less about the drama and the dance. Except Nathan. He's a boy on a mission to get a date. Nathan's 11, funny and a little sheltered. This is his third summer at camp.

Nathan (32:40)

That's one of the reasons I like to come here. Because you don't have a parent to keep going. Hey, don't do that. No, hey, don't do that. But. But in other cases it's learning what happens when you don't listen to your parents.

Caitlin (32:56)

Last year Nathan had an amazing time at the dance. He was too embarrassed to ask anybody, but he wore a suit which was a big hit this year. He really wants to go with someone. He's already asked one girl and I.

Nathan (33:10)

Might have gotten rejected. I don't know yet. He said, I don't know. And I'm so nervous cuz I want to take her.

Caitlin (33:17)

What are you going to ask again?

Nathan (33:19)

Yes, what?

Caitlin (33:21)

What's going to go through your head when you walk up to her?

Nathan (33:24)

Fear, mostly fear. You know what girls do when they like a guy? They hit him. They do stuff like that. I know from experience. And guys, I don't know what they do. Showing off, that's what boys do.

Caitlin (33:44)

So Nathan asks the girl again, she says no, I cried in the cabin.

Nathan (33:52)

I cried in my bed, cried in the bathroom.

Caitlin (33:57)

Why were you crying?

Nathan (33:58)

Well, because I had never been rejected before.

Caitlin (34:01)

Never?

Nathan (34:02)

Never. Not like that.

Caitlin (34:04)

Most of the kids here are really used to getting rejected because they all have skin diseases. Some kids have splotches or moles or scales. Some are bald or allergic to the sun. Some have life threatening diseases. There are kids who get enormous blisters from just walking, eating, even changes in temperature. They're covered in bandages. They're in wheelchairs. Camps swarming with dermatologists and nurses. There's a big table in the mess hall where kids line up to get their medicine. Compared to a lot of the campers, Caitlin's skin disease is pretty mild. She has eczema, she's an army brat and every time she starts a new school she has to explain what's wrong with her skin.

Sergeant Harrison (34:49)

I remember One time I was going up to get a math sheet, and there was this person who I thought was beginning to be my friend, kind of. And I was going up to get a sheet, and she touched my elbow, which was really dry and rough at that time. And she, like, yelled really loud, Ew, that's disgusting. Your elbow's so rough and dry. And then everybody came over and touched my elbow, and I felt like, you know how you go to a museum or something and you're all staring at, like, a lizard inside a box or something? I felt like so much like that.

Caitlin (35:23)

Everybody at camp has this feeling, like, all the time in their normal lives. I have a skin disease. I've had this feeling. I came to this camp as a kid and as a counselor.

Sergeant Harrison (35:34)

It's like. It's like you're at a regular camp.

Rachel (35:38)

But it's the only time you'll ever be normal.

Sergeant Harrison (35:43)

There's a sense here that you can just do whatever you want, be whoever you want, and your personality can completely change from school to here. I think this is a complete bully free zone.

Caitlin (35:56)

At Camp Discovery. Caitlin's not a lizard. She's beautiful. She has her pick of suitors, but she only has eyes for Christian, a boy in a wheelchair who has epidermolysis bullosa. It's the most severe disease at camp. In some cases, it's fatal. Christian's skin is covered in blisters. His hands and feet are knotted and fused with scar tissue. His arms and legs are covered in bandages. And last year, he and Kaitlyn, they hung out.

Sergeant Harrison (36:27)

We talked a lot during the dance, and after horseback riding, we went and saw the puppies and stuff that was pretty cute. And took pictures with him and the puppies.

Caitlin (36:37)

Okay, so you guys. You guys definitely, you know each other?

Glen Washington (36:39)

Friends?

Sergeant Harrison (36:39)

Yes. It's kind of cute, I guess. Last year, we danced a lot, and he asked to take a picture with me at the end of the dance.

Caitlin (36:46)

But it turns out Rachel, Caitlin's cabin mate, also likes Christian. Rachel's quiet, funny, but quiet. She doesn't want to be interviewed. She has a disease called vitiligo, so her skin's really, really blotchy. Rachel's already going to the dance with Christian, but she invites Caitlin to come as a sort of triple date. This is a power move in the world of middle school girl politics. They're both going to the dance with Christian, and nobody's feelings are getting hurt. Meanwhile, Nathan is still on the hunt for a date. He's also got EB but not as badly as Christian. He Wears bandages on his hands, elbows and feet.

Nathan (37:26)

It's basically where there's layers of skin. And my skin, it doesn't have the glue between the layers, so it just.

Caitlin (37:33)

Peels easily and it like makes blisters.

Nathan (37:37)

Yeah, blisters. It's junctional ebay. It's not the worst, but it's not the best.

Caitlin (37:43)

Now there is a girl who likes Nathan. She's cute, but her skin is worse than those other girls. Nathan doesn't ask her to the dance. He asks someone else. And girls whose skin diseases you can't really see keep turning him down.

Nathan (37:59)

One of the reasons why I ain't for the pretty girls is I can't see myself. In my head I have an envisioning of like a kid with no blemishes on the skin. And so I just went for the them first.

Caitlin (38:19)

I mean, when you think about the possibility of you not being asked because of your skin, how does it feel?

Nathan (38:25)

A bit of anger, but I would understand.

Caitlin (38:29)

Why would you understand?

Nathan (38:30)

Because I didn't ask Savannah. I mean, it's not all because of her skin. It's just. Well, some of it is, yeah.

Caitlin (38:37)

You know, like thinking about how she feels, you know, not being asked. Maybe a little bit because of her skin.

Nathan (38:43)

Yeah.

Caitlin (38:44)

What does it make you feel like?

Nathan (38:48)

I don't feel like a total monster, but it seems a bit mean. Just a bit.

Caitlin (38:54)

So at skin camp, looks matter. Unless you have really bad EB the blistering disease. These kids, bandaged and in wheelchairs, they become the darlings of camp. Especially the boys who usually end up getting asked to the dance. The last day of camp before the dance, a lot of girls leave Waterfront early to get ready. Caitlin's the cabin makeup guru. She helps other girls with eyeliner and lipstick. The boys aren't so worried, worried about how they look. Nathan's one of the first kids ready for the dance. He tells me he brushed his teeth and used Axe body wash. He brought his dress pants to camp, but he's packed them so he's wearing yellow gym shorts. The mess hall's all decorated. The tables are pushed to the sides. The lights are low, music's pumping. Caitlin and Rachel look cute in their dresses. Christian's wearing a button down shirt and they head into the dance together. Nathan waits outside for his date. It's been a rough week, getting rejected by girls he thought were in his league. At the last minute, his date ditches him and he's left alone.

Nathan (40:08)

I feel a bit sad that I was rejected again, basically. I don't know if I was rejected.

Sergeant Harrison (40:16)

It's time to slow down.

Nathan (40:18)

Okay, I'm outside.

Caitlin (40:21)

Are you going to stay outside during the slow dance?

Nathan (40:25)

I wonder if my date will come and find me if I still do have one. I wonder if I have a plan E out here.

Caitlin (40:33)

Do you need a plan E?

Nathan (40:35)

Maybe.

Caitlin (40:37)

Just in case.

Nathan (40:41)

I don't like slow dancing. I don't either.

Dan Rossi (40:43)

I don't either.

Sergeant Harrison (40:44)

It's the worst.

Dan Rossi (40:45)

I slow dance once.

Caitlin (40:50)

Nathan's pretty bummed, so I let him call his mom from my phone. He explained what happened with all his dates.

Nathan's Mom (40:59)

Wait, tonight's the dance?

Nathan (41:00)

Yes, it is.

Nathan's Mom (41:02)

Did you tell Sarah what you did last year?

Nathan (41:05)

Well, last year. What happened? I wore.

Nathan's Mom (41:09)

You took your nice suit and you didn't plan to ask a girl, and girls were telling you to ask someone and you absolutely refused to. You just went and danced and had a great time.

Nathan (41:18)

I was embarrassed. Yeah.

Nathan's Mom (41:20)

So you were too embarrassed last year to ask?

Nathan (41:22)

Yes.

Caitlin (41:23)

But you wore that wonderful suit, which you then got all bloody.

Nathan's Mom (41:27)

Oh, so he did tell you about that.

Caitlin (41:29)

Yes. That he came home wearing a bloody suit?

Nathan's Mom (41:32)

Yeah, with shower shoes that he had worn to the dance the night before. And you know, he has fragile skin and someone had stepped on his foot that night at the dance?

Caitlin (41:43)

Yeah.

Nathan's Mom (41:43)

And about a third of his foot was a new wound, and he was so excited and tired, he didn't tell anyone. So he traveled home that way.

Caitlin (41:51)

Oh, my God.

Nathan's Mom (41:56)

He's not allowed to come home without making sure that you know somebody who's looked at his hands and seen at least a little bit. So Sarah said that she'd like me to encourage you to go in right now. And so that means right now.

Nathan (42:09)

Okay.

Nathan's Mom (42:10)

Will you do that for both of us?

Nathan (42:11)

Yes, ma'am.

Nathan's Mom (42:13)

I love you, son.

Nathan (42:14)

Love you, mama.

Caitlin (42:15)

So Nathan finally heads into the dance. Inside, things start off okay. I ask Rachel how it's going. She says, go talk to Christian. Can I talk to you? You have two dates. What's that like? Yeah. What's the best part about having two dates to the dance?

Sergeant Harrison (42:37)

Dancing.

Caitlin (42:39)

It's pretty nice. You get to dance with both of them. But the thing is, he's not dancing with Caitlin. She's disappeared and is dancing with her friends. Christian starts asking Rachel where Caitlin is. He gets more and more upset. And then he storms out of the mess hall and back to the boys cabin, barricading his wheelchair against the door. Counselors finally convince them all to come back into the dance, and they start dancing in this weird, sad line. Rachel's holding a Counselor's hand on one side, Christian on the other. Christian's holding Caitlin's hand and her face is buried in her counselor's stomach. She's sobbing. The dance ends and they all leave.

Sergeant Harrison (43:26)

Sad because it like broke my heart to think that he probably doesn't get this much attention at all. And then I ask him to play dance and I don't dance with him. I just wanted to dance with some of my friends. It's like I'm being a bully. And I. Yeah, I felt like I was a bully in a place where there's supposed to be a bully free zone.

Caitlin (43:49)

Yeah. You know, it's like it's cool to go the kid who has the worst skin disease, but then you don't dance with him, you know?

Sergeant Harrison (43:56)

Yeah. It's like it makes it even worse that like, the people who have it worse, I'm also like the meanest to. It feels like, like all of a sudden that I'm picking on the ones that like, I went to the dance purposely to go to not dance with him.

Caitlin (44:13)

I don't think anybody thinks that's true.

Sergeant Harrison (44:15)

I do.

Caitlin (44:18)

Well, I guess this is something where you just kind of learn, you know?

Sergeant Harrison (44:21)

Yeah. Right now I feel like I'm not learning anything. But right now it just feels like this is mean pain.

Caitlin (44:30)

And the night still isn't over. I'm talking to Caitlin by the bunks when there's a knock on the door. It's Christian flanked by counselors. He's come with flowers and he asks for Caitlin. I think she's telling you to come here. Yeah, I will, sure. Uh huh. But Caitlin's so embarrassed and ashamed, she hesitates to even go to the door.

Rachel (44:53)

I feel so much better.

Sergeant Harrison (44:54)

Oh my God, no. Every time I look at him, I feel 10 times worse.

Rachel (44:58)

I know, but that's why we gotta fix it.

Sergeant Harrison (45:00)

It won't be fixed. I'll always feel like this. You don't have to always say, but I will. When I get something in my head that I did something wrong, I just feel like that forever.

Caitlin (45:12)

He wants to make.

Sergeant Harrison (45:15)

Because he did nothing wrong.

Rachel (45:16)

He wants to talk to you. He doesn't know that he did nothing wrong. He wants to talk to you and work it out.

Caitlin (45:23)

So Caitlyn reluctantly goes to the door. Go on, lady, you got it. Come on.

Nathan (45:34)

Okay.

Sergeant Harrison (45:37)

Thank you. I'm sorry too.

Caitlin (45:40)

Caitlyn's counselors whisper to her to see if she can give Christian a hug.

Sergeant Harrison (45:44)

No, no, no. Can I give you a hug?

Nathan (45:50)

Yeah.

Sergeant Harrison (45:51)

Okay. I'm sorry too.

Dan Rossi (45:57)

Mommy.

Caitlin (45:59)

Christian hands Caitlin a little bouquet of flowers. The thing is, Christian has spent the whole night chasing Caitlin Rachel, the girl with a more visible skin disease. His other date has been forgotten. Lacey's their counselor. She's a dermatology resident, and she watched the whole night unfold.

Rachel (46:19)

I think it probably is the most painful thing I've ever watched in person.

Caitlin (46:24)

Why?

Rachel (46:25)

I think mostly because this camp is supposed to be a place where kids are safe from things like this and they come here to fit in, possibly for the first time in their whole lives. And then. And even the ones who are doing the herding, they understand what they're doing to the other kids, but they can't stop doing it.

Caitlin (46:47)

I mean, yeah, that's like the catch 22 of this place, right?

Rachel (46:50)

Like it has its own hierarchy. And in some ways it's different than the rest of the world, but in other ways it isn't, because even that backfires. I just wish that this wasn't a place that that could even happen, I.

Caitlin (47:06)

Guess, she says that kind of makes it worse. A rough night turns into a rough morning at the airport. All the kids are hugging and crying. Getting on that plane means heading back to the real world. Even though last night's drama was intense, nobody wants to go home.

Glen Washington (47:41)

Yes, there is lots of love for everyone at Camp Discovery. It's sponsored by the American Academy of Dermatology and it is free. It is fun. Learn more about it by going to aad.org search for Camp Discovery. We're gonna have a link as well on snapjudgment.org the original sound design for that story was by Renzo Gorio. That piece was produced by Sarah Harris. You know what's even better than hearing a story? Giving 1. Tis the season you can give the gift of story. Send your friends and your enemies little taste of the Snap Judgment podcast. Snap is brought to you by the team that puts one hot dog in their mouth at a time. Except for the uber producer, Mr. Mark Ristich, there's Nancy Lopez, Pat Mercedes Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Gorio, John Fasille, Shayna Shealy, Taylor Dakot, Flo Wiley, Bo Walsh, Marissa Dodds, David Exime, and Regina Bediaco. And this is not the news. No ways is it news. In fact, you can own the most popular hot dog stand in New York City. Or you could make a small change so that just one day a year, you only served vegan sausages. And when an angry mob responds by tearing your stand apart stick by stick, take solace and the fact that even then, in the middle of the mayhem, you would still still not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is prx.