The Medicine Man - Snap Classic

Summary

Snap Judgment: "The Medicine Man - Snap Classic"

Release Date: February 20, 2025
Host: Glenn Washington, Snap Judgment and PRX

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Overview

In the "The Medicine Man - Snap Classic" episode, Chris Lundy delves into a haunting childhood mystery that intertwines family secrets, cultural heritage, and the elusive quest for answers. Battling a severe, unexplained illness as a child, Chris's journey unfolds as he seeks to understand what truly happened during a pivotal moment in his youth.

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Childhood Crisis: A Mysterious Illness

At the heart of the story is Chris Lundy's experience at age 10. In the summer of 1989, while living in Maryland, Chris began suffering from an intense, daily cough accompanied by excruciating chest pain and coughing up blood. Traditional medical examinations failed to diagnose his condition, leaving both Chris and his family desperate for answers.

Chris Lundy [06:12]: "I was 10 years old. I was almost 11. I was living in Maryland with my mom and my older sister. The year was 1989."

Despite ongoing medical visits, the cause of his symptoms remained elusive, compelling his mother to seek alternative solutions.

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Turning to Voodoo: Seeking Alternative Healing

Unable to find a medical explanation, Chris's mother decided to take him to New York, where family members practiced voodoo. In New York, Chris and his family met a voodoo priest who claimed to have special healing abilities.

Chris Lundy [09:01]: "He said, what question do you have for me? And I asked him, how'd you get your powers?"

The priest provided Chris with an amber vial containing a mysterious liquid, instructing him to place a drop on his tongue whenever the cough returned. Skeptical yet hopeful, Chris followed the instructions and found immediate relief.

Chris Lundy [09:56]: "I found the vial and I put a drop on my tongue. And the coughing sensation goes away."

However, the relief was not without its challenges. A subsequent use of the potion resulted in intense pain, leading Chris to question the efficacy and safety of the treatment.

Chris Lundy [10:21]: "It went away."

This dichotomy between miraculous relief and severe pain left Chris grappling with his belief in the voodoo remedy.

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The Quest for Answers: Bridging Medicine and Voodoo

As an adult in his 40s, Chris seeks to uncover the truth behind his childhood illness. His investigation reveals a fractured family dynamic and a reluctance to discuss voodoo practices openly. Efforts to connect with family members, including his Aunt Milei, yield little information, deepening the mystery.

Chris Lundy [12:18]: "There's this conflict of intellect and life experience..."

Frustrated by the lack of recollection and transparency, Chris turns to medical experts to understand his past condition. Dr. Chris Becker, a pulmonary and critical care doctor, suggests that Chris may have suffered from arteriovenous malformations—a rare condition that could explain spontaneous bleeding in the lungs. However, the spontaneous resolution of his symptoms remains puzzling.

Dr. Chris Becker [16:21]: "Hemoptysis, or coughing up blood is very distressing. We usually take this situation very seriously."

Despite expert opinions, the questions about his healing remain unanswered, prompting Chris to explore his cultural roots further.

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Reconnecting with Heritage: Meeting Mambo Florence

In his search for closure, Chris meets Mambo Florence, an ordained voodoo priestess in Queens. The encounter rekindles memories of his childhood experience, as Mambo Florence conducts rituals reminiscent of those Chris endured as a child.

Chris Lundy [20:20]: "And one thing that really took me was how familiar it felt. It was very similar to the room that I was in back when I was 10 years old."

Through these sessions, Chris gains a deeper appreciation for his Haitian heritage and the role of voodoo in his family's resilience and survival.

Dr. Charlene Desear [24:04]: "Vodou is more than a religion. It's a system, a way of life and understanding."

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Confronting Family Secrets: The Unanswered Questions

Returning home, Chris attempts to confront his Aunt Milei to finally unlock the secrets of his past. Accompanied by his cousin Gabby, he broaches the subject of his illness and the voodoo intervention. Unfortunately, Aunt Milei denies any recollection of the voodoo practices, leaving Chris feeling betrayed and without the closure he desperately seeks.

Chris Lundy [28:32]: "We were there. My mother, Auntie Maya and Auntie Esther, Auntie Annette, all in the room."

Aunt Milei [29:19]: "I don't remember."

This lack of acknowledgment underscores the cultural stigmas and familial fractures that have long concealed the truth.

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Embracing the Mystery: Acceptance and Understanding

Ultimately, Chris arrives at a place of acceptance regarding his unresolved past. While he may never fully understand how he overcame his illness, he finds peace in acknowledging the strength and love that his family and cultural heritage provided.

Chris Lundy [31:46]: "I have to get my questions answered. And my aunt's the only one who truly can."

Chris Lundy [31:44]: "And as far as how Chris got better, I am more comfortable sitting with the mystery of it. I'm never gonna know why I got better."

This resolution highlights the enduring power of family bonds and cultural identity, even in the face of unanswered questions.

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Reflections on Heritage and Family

Chris's journey not only seeks to uncover the medical mystery of his childhood but also serves as a poignant exploration of his Haitian roots and the complex interplay between traditional practices and Western medicine. Through this introspective voyage, he honors his mother's determination and the cultural legacy that continues to shape his identity.

Chris Lundy [27:20]: "Something that Dr. De Sere gave me, that I walked away with was this pride... being proud of the Haitian culture and where voodoo fits and where it came from."

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Conclusion

"The Medicine Man - Snap Classic" masterfully intertwines personal narrative with cultural exploration, offering listeners a profound look into Chris Lundy's quest for truth and understanding. By navigating the delicate balance between skepticism and belief, Chris's story underscores the enduring impact of family, heritage, and the human spirit in overcoming life's most perplexing challenges.

Transcript

[Glenn Washington]

Snap Studios Snap Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states. This message is brought to you by Apple Card Apple Card is everything a credit card should be. It's easy to manage, built to be secure, and gives users up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. The best part about Apple Card is applying is quick and easy. Apply in the Wallet app on iPhone and see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] okay, so whenever anyone in my generation of the family gets pregnant or you know, get someone pregnant, when the happy news is announced, after the cheers, the shouts, the congratulations, the baby name suggestions, one of my aunties or uncles to always say, watch out now. Cause twins running our family. I've always heard that. Always knew that. In fact, when the doctor did the ultrasound for my own children, I told her, be sure to take a good look around, you know. Cause twins run in our family. Recently, my cousin announces she's having a baby. When the folks start in with the twins thing, I think, you know what twins? My dad's not a twin. My uncles are not twins. My aunties, my grandparents. Where are these twins? My family is like, I don't know. You just can't ask for simple answers to simple questions. Everything's gotta be difficult. And I found the best way to uncover something is to act like you already know it. So at a recent gathering, after I see her drink her second glass of moscato, I slide over next to my auntie. Auntie. I can't decide which one of us the twins would most resemble. Or I'd say they, they really favor your Uncle Eddie. Then she scowls, angry, fuming. Cause I actually tricked some real information out. Won't say another word to me. But I get from her uncle, one of them twins. Yeah, your grandmother. She never drove again, you know that, you know, after the accident, a nod, the accident. And it's like with just a few words, my entire childhood shifts. I certainly knew we lived under a cloud, under a shadow. I could see it. And my grandmother's eyes. Even when she laughed, when she hugged me, when she kissed me, the darkness was always there. Right next to her power. Right next to her strength. I just never knew what to call it. And having something to call it, recalling how she sometimes fought back tears in order to be present with me. For me, it makes me love her memory all the more. Today on Snap Judgment, we're searching for answers of an entirely different sort. SNAP proudly presents the Medicine Man. Now, my name is Glenn Washington, and I learned something incredible. Every single time I pour my auntie that extra glass of moscato. But she gets very mad, very, very mad when I spill the beans on Snap. Judg. You see, family secrets are powerful secrets. On today's Snap, we're sharing a mystery from our friends at WHYY's the Pulse. Chris Lundy became very ill when he was just 10 years old. But the doctors, they couldn't figure out what was wrong with him. So Chris's family turned to other experts to get the job done. Afterward, no one would talk about it. Now Chris is in his 40s, and Chris wants to know what happened and why what happened was hidden from him. Snap judgment.

[Chris Lundy]

I was 10 years old. I was almost 11. I was living in Maryland with my mom and my older sister. The year was 1989.

[Narrator]

As Chris Lundy tells it, he was a healthy kid, liked to play outside, read comic books.

[Chris Lundy]

It was a normal day. And all of a sudden I felt this cough coming on, and it was intense. I remember feeling like I wasn't qualified for this level of pain. I mean, it came from the center of my chest. I remember covering my mouth but removing my hand and looking down and seeing blood all over my hands.

[Narrator]

Afterward, he was sweating, curled up on the floor.

[Chris Lundy]

The very next day, cough came, the same pain.

[Narrator]

It started happening day after day. This was summer, and he was home a lot by himself. Chris liked video games, and most days he would stay inside playing them while he anticipated the cough. After several more days, his mom took him to the doctor. The doctor checked him out, ran some tests, but couldn't say what was going on.

[Chris Lundy]

My mother seemed calm, which made me a little more worried than I would have been if I would have seen her fear.

[Narrator]

The cough kept coming, just as painful, just as scary. It continued for a couple weeks until Chris's mom came up with another plan.

[Chris Lundy]

My mother sent me up to New York.

[Narrator]

That's where most of Chris's family's from. His mother and her sisters were all born in Haiti, and everyone but Chris's mom had established their lives in Brooklyn. Chris didn't know why he was going there now, but it seemed like there was something they weren't Telling him everybody.

[Chris Lundy]

Was really, really nice to me, overwhelmingly and suspiciously nice. You know, when my aunts hugged me, the hugs were longer than usual. When they talked to me, they talked more gently than usual. So the next day, my mother shows up. I remember being really happy to see her.

[Narrator]

You know, they headed out together, the whole family.

[Chris Lundy]

The thing that floored me was all the aunts were there. This was so unusual outside of Christmas or Thanksgiving.

[Narrator]

They arrived at a house Chris didn't recognize.

[Chris Lundy]

We were greeted by this man, and he brought us downstairs to the basement. And it was interesting because one, it was dark, it was all candles. There was a tub with flower petals. There was a statue of the mother, Mary.

[Narrator]

Chris's mom and aunt sat in chairs lined up along the wall. Chris and the man sat in chairs across from each other in the center of the room. The man told Chris he had special healing abilities that could help Chris.

[Chris Lundy]

He said, what question do you have for me? And I asked him, how'd you get your powers? You know, and again, I was big into comic books and things like that. So my little 10 year old mind, it framed it, you know, like, what's your hero origin story?

[Narrator]

The man told Chris about a dream he had where an angel visited him. Then he pulled out an amber glass bottle with a dropper in it.

[Chris Lundy]

He explained that whenever I feel the coming on to put one drop of the liquid inside on my tongue. When I left, I was skeptical. This was just another thing that we were gonna do with no answers.

[Narrator]

So that night, Chris heads back to Maryland with his mom, amber bottle in hand. Next day, she goes back to work. He goes back to video games until he feels the cough coming on.

[Chris Lundy]

I found the vial and I put a drop on my tongue. And the coughing sensation goes away. I gotta stop for a second because I know how this sounds, man. Justin, I'm telling you, it went away, man.

[Justin Kraymond]

It went away.

[Narrator]

And when you think that, like, are you, like, it's some psychological thing or you're like, no, physically it went, it went away. Like physically. Physically, the liquid in the vial worked the next day, and the next. The coffee days started to stack up and Chris started to believe there was something powerful to what the man had given him.

[Chris Lundy]

So one night, the coughing sensation came again, as usual. Put a drop on my tongue. And the coughing sensation kept coming. Okay, let me do another drop. And then the cough hit. This pain was completely off the charts. It was the most pain I've ever been in, even till this day. I was crying, I was balled up, but I think on top of the physical toll that it took, I remember being enraged because I felt betrayed by the guy. I felt stupid for even believing that to begin with.

[Narrator]

So this is where the struggle really started for Chris between believing and doubting the remedy the man had given him.

[Chris Lundy]

The next day came, and I spent the entire day anticipating the cough. Is it gonna be as bad as last night? Is it gonna be even worse? And as it got later and later, the cough didn't come. I remember going to sleep that night. It was just a free day. So the day after, I woke up worried. But again, it didn't come. And so those days of no cough became a week, of no cough became a month. I started to relax a little bit, and I realized that it was over.

[Narrator]

As Chris got older, he wondered what was in that amber vial and if the man had actually cured him.

[Chris Lundy]

So over the years, it became clear to me who that guy was, who they sent me to, that he was a voodoo doctor. You know, he was a voodoo priest. I'm Haitian. My family's Haitian. Part of Haitian culture is voodoo and voodoo practices.

[Narrator]

Chris found it odd his family never talked about it. Like his trip to New York never happened. He also wondered what had been wrong with him. His condition was really serious. So what made it go away? Chris actually works in the medical field, selling medications that coincidentally treat lung diseases.

[Chris Lundy]

But here I am with this experience from childhood that stands in the face of all that. There's this conflict of intellect and life experience. A lot of the questions that I have could have been answered in 10 minutes if my mother was around, but she passed away when I was 17. Flash forward a few decades later, I had a ton of curiosity around what happened and what my mother's life was like and what my mother's relationship with her family.

[Narrator]

And his sister wasn't around much and can't fill in the holes of the aunts that were there. Two have died. The other two, Aunt Mile and Aunt Renette, he hadn't spoken to in decades. There'd been a bitter fracture in the family a while back, and Chris and Mile had ended up on different sides of it. Beyond that, there's always been an intense discomfort discussing voodoo with the older generation and his family. Chris thinks it's a taboo topic.

[Chris Lundy]

It would be more than hard to ask him. It would be, you know, virtually impossible.

[Narrator]

There aren't any medical records. So Chris had to turn to other resources to answer his questions.

[Chris Lundy]

My search began with Auntie Leslie. She was my mom's best friend. I know she misses my mother every single day. And I know that talking to me sparks memories of my mom. But I also know that she loves hearing from me, even though she wasn't there. I expected her to be able to tell me my mother's state of mind because they used to talk every day.

[Justin Kraymond]

She came to see me, and I.

[Chris Lundy]

Remember her saying that you were sick.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

That you were really, really sick.

[Chris Lundy]

Do you remember them taking me to that guy?

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

What guy?

[Narrator]

She doesn't know where Chris was taken. She said his Aunt Mile would be the best resource, the one Chris hasn't spoken to in years. But Leslie also said Chris could try his Aunt Mildred, who, in general, knows a lot of the family business.

[Justin Kraymond]

Hello.

[Chris Lundy]

Hi.

[Glenn Washington]

Tutu.

[Justin Kraymond]

Puffy.

[Narrator]

He catches up with her, and he gets to his reason for calling. Says he's been thinking about that time he was really sick as a kid and got sent to New York.

[Chris Lundy]

Do you remember any of that? No.

[Narrator]

Oof. She has no memory of the whole episode. Still, Chris tells her, we ended up.

[Chris Lundy]

Going to see a voodoo doctor.

[Narrator]

You too? She explains it wasn't uncommon in the family to visit a voodoo practitioner when they didn't know why someone was sick. She'd been taken, too.

[Chris Lundy]

What it told me is that voodoo is a part of not only Haitian culture, but my family's culture. The older aunts that you know were pretty much adults when they moved from Haiti to America. They were living in this Haitian bubble inside of Brooklyn. So they're going to be more connected to voodoo practices.

[Narrator]

Mildred echoed that only Milei would know the answers to Chris's questions. But he still wasn't ready to go there. Instead, he decided to seek, let's call it a more traditional medical expert explanation of what might have been going wrong with him. He called up Chris Becker, a pulmonary and critical care doctor at Mount Sinai in New York. Dr. Becker jumped into asking about Chris symptoms surrounding the cough.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

Would this be a daily occurrence or.

[Chris Lundy]

Yes, it was daily.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

Were you able to identify any triggers?

[Chris Lundy]

It was random.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

And what was the color of it?

[Narrator]

They go on for a couple minutes until Dr. Becker feels he's gotten enough to offer some ideas which we should emphasize were not to be taken as a diagnosis or medical advice.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

Hemoptysis, or coughing up blood is very distressing. We usually take this situation very seriously.

[Narrator]

Based On Chris's description, Dr. Becker says he was coughing up a moderate amount of blood, and it was pretty clearly coming from his lungs.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

What you're describing is that you have this warning, which is probably when the bleeding starts, and Then there's a few seconds before that causes you to cough. As the lungs realize that there's blood, all of a sudden.

[Narrator]

Chris's explanation knocks a number of chronic illnesses off the list of possibilities, like bronchitis or fungal infections or tuberculosis. This leaves mostly anatomical issues. Blood vessels in the wrong place. These arterial venous malformations mean that an artery connects to a vein without the normal pathway, increasing the possibility of spontaneous bleeding in the lungs. Dr. Becker says that if Chris had been his patient, he would have done imaging to look for these abnormalities, see exactly where the bleeding was coming from. That triggered a question I had, and a spontaneous resolution would be possible with some of those conditions.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

Well, that's actually, in general that's a bit puzzling, is that this just spontaneously stopped and never recurred. I can't really fully reconcile this because it wouldn't be the most common scenario.

[Narrator]

This is the part that puzzles Chris, too. How do you get better? Dr. Becker supports patients seeking out different approaches to their medical conditions, including through religion.

[Dr. Chris Becker]

But for a scenario of significant hemoptysis, in our scientific view, they will not be enough.

[Narrator]

Is it possible Chris is forgetting some details? Does he just remember it as worse than it was?

[Dr. Chris Becker]

Either way, you know, you were lucky that those episodes always spontaneously stopped for you, right? But what if one of them hadn't?

[Chris Lundy]

Listening to Dr. Becker helps me understand that my mother was scared. She was afraid. Small side street here.

[Narrator]

Uh, so what did his mom think a voodoo priest could do for her son?

[Chris Lundy]

That's it right there. Okay.

[Narrator]

We can't find the man who treated Chris all those years ago, but In January of 2023, we head to Queens to see an ordained voodoo priestess named Mambo Florence. Jean Joseph, go up here and knock.

[Chris Lundy]

And, hi, Mambo Florence is there. And on the walls, there was, you know, a lot of Haitian art.

[Narrator]

That's why they sat down at her dining table, started talking. Mambo Flo explained that many different people from the Haitian American community come to her. Teachers, various professionals, even doctors. Her services have recognized importance to Haitian families. What she provides, in addition to religious ceremonies is like a counseling service. And she gives her advice according to what she sees as basic voodoo principles.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

Voodoo is like philosophy. Love yourself, accept yourself the way you are, being in harmony with nature, being in harmony with human, and respect life.

[Narrator]

She explains her advice is not in contradiction to medical advice, but more like a supplement. In fact, she encourages people to get checked out by a doctor before they come. After their talk, Mambo Flo takes Chris down to the basement where she conducts voodoo rituals.

[Chris Lundy]

And one thing that really took me was how familiar it felt. It was very similar to the room that I was in back when I was 10 years old.

[Narrator]

He recognized the candles, the altar, even the way the chairs were arranged. Mambo Flo is welcoming and open about her practice, though she acknowledges a stigma Vodou sometimes carries even within Haitian communities.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

It's like Vodou, it's for the uneducated and all that. Even if we have scholars who are of who do initiates. But when they write, they never refer to it like I practice it.

[Narrator]

It gave Chris an idea why his aunt doesn't talk about it and even why he feels reluctant to discuss the whole episode. Driving back from Mambo Flos, Chris returns to the questions that have brought him here.

[Chris Lundy]

What did I have? How did I get better? And what happened when I was there, when I was at that house and I was in that basement when what went down?

[Narrator]

And one thing becomes clear to him.

[Chris Lundy]

I have to get my questions answered. And my aunt's the only one who truly can.

[Narrator]

His aunt Mile. He means the one he's been avoiding.

[Chris Lundy]

So even though I think it'll be a challenge, I gotta make it happen.

[Glenn Washington]

The SNAP returns. Chris decides there's only one way to get the answers he's been searching for. Stay tuned. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. You don't need a ton of time. You can create your Acorns account and start investing in just five minutes. Basically, Ac Acorns does the hard part so it can give your money a chance to grow. For me, Acorns has helped me put part of my future planning on AutoPilot. Head to acorns.com snap or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today, paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] snap welcome back to Snap Judgment, the Medicine man episode. When last we left, Chris realized that there's just one person who knows what ailed him as a child and knows how he got better. But talking to her, that's another thing entirely. Snap judgment.

[Narrator]

To get ready, Chris called up a person he thought could counsel him on what he might say to his aunt. Someone who knows a lot about how vudou fits into Haitian culture and who actually counsels kids about reconnecting to that culture through her organization, the empowerment network.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

I am Dr. Charlene Desear. I'm a professor at nova southeastern university. I'm initiating Vodou priestess.

[Narrator]

Dr. Desir said she could discuss Chris's childhood experience with him.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

But you have to understand a little context about Vodou. So Vodou was created by kidnapped africans.

[Narrator]

During the middle passage, enslaved people from all over Africa were taken to the island of hispaniola, which present day Haiti shares with the Dominican republic.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

The pan africans that were brought to haiti from various tribes, various classes, various education levels Created a system that made sense to them for survival. And that system was called vodou. Vodou is more than a religion. It's a system, A way of life and understanding. Academically. We call it an epistemology, a way of knowing. And one of the fundamental aspects of that was health.

[Narrator]

So people from all over africa brought these traditions and this knowledge about how to heal the body using the natural resources they had.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

And this is our inheritance as Haitian people.

[Narrator]

Chris asked why all the aunts had to accompany him to the ungan, the voodoo priest.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

Having the sisters be there in alliance, it shows the love that surrounded you. I don't know, Chris, but I'm sure your family sought out medical care. They sought off medical care first. That's where you're gonna go first. If it doesn't work, then we have to go to the other doctors.

[Chris Lundy]

I know what the majority of people think and believe about about voodoo, and it's like, how do I explain that I had this incredible illness and that I went to a ugan, and then I no longer had that incredible illness?

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

Well, brother, you telling the whole world right now. So you ready? You've arrived. I mean, it's very simple. I went to a root doctor. I went to an herbalist. We've been denied our humanity for so many years. This is how we survived slavery.

[Narrator]

Chris asks why voodoo has this stigma associated with it.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

We've been miseducated. Miseducated as a community. My thing is that we have a problem of respecting things we don't understand.

[Narrator]

Dr. Dezear says that haitians have been made to feel insecure about voodoo because of hiding it for so long. For their own protection. But given all that secrecy, what should Chris say to his Aunt Milei to get her to open up about his family experience?

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

What is it you want to know? You know that you were healed. You know that at some juncture, despite what's happening now, that there was a relationship that you had with the women in your bloodline, and you are a Haitian American man. Point blank, simple. You are an African American man. You are a Pan African American man, but your indigenous roots are Vodou. You're Haitian spiritually and culturally.

[Chris Lundy]

I think you just gave me everything I needed.

[Narrator]

They hung up, and something had shifted in Chris.

[Chris Lundy]

Something that Dr. De Sere gave me, that I walked away with was this pride. Right. Like being proud of the Haitian culture and where voodoo fits and where it came from.

[Narrator]

He felt ready to talk to his aunt.

[Chris Lundy]

It's February 1, 11:30am I'm sitting in my car.

[Narrator]

He's outside his Aunt Melee's house. His cousin Gabby came with him for support.

[Chris Lundy]

There's a lot of anxiety, a lot of reluctance. I'm looking forward to it, and I'm not looking forward to it all at the same time. Yeah. I don't know what to expect. All right. Haven't been here in, I don't know, maybe 15 years.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

When you.

[Chris Lundy]

Oh, coldest day in here, man.

[G]

Hi, Chris. How you doing?

[Narrator]

They sit down together in the house. Chris remembers from his childhood, the stairs where he played with his cousins, the table where he ate cereal before going to bed. And the talk's going well. They're sharing good memories, laughing. And then Chris gets to why he contacted Milei.

[Chris Lundy]

Now, you know, there was a time I was gonna ask you that. I got sick. I was coughing and coughing up blood and stuff.

[Justin Kraymond]

Yes.

[Chris Lundy]

Blood.

[G]

Yes.

[Chris Lundy]

Okay. Because my mother sent me to New York. Do you remember that?

[G]

Yes, I remember that. I went to the doctor. They said that you have something on your chest, your pulmonary things. They did a test and everything. And after I went to get the second opinion, what the first doctor had said, it was wrong. And I said to Margaret, she knows.

[Narrator]

Exactly what he's talking about. Second, she confirms how sick he was, how scared they were he was going to die. That's when Chris brings up the other part.

[Chris Lundy]

I remember we went to the voodoo doctor.

[G]

We did. We went with you. But I don't remember.

[Chris Lundy]

You don't remember that?

[Narrator]

She says she doesn't recall it.

[Chris Lundy]

We were there. My mother, Auntie Maya and Auntie Esther, Auntie Annette, all in the room.

[G]

I don't remember.

[Narrator]

Again, she Says she doesn't remember.

[G]

I never heard anything after that. You got better. Maybe the voodoo doctor works.

[Dr. Charlene Desear]

We just gotta peel back that layer.

[Chris Lundy]

And say she remembered the illness clearly. She remembers me coughing up blood. She remembers me coming to New York. She just held to being completely unfamiliar with any voodoo element at all.

[G]

That's it. You go home. That's it.

[Justin Kraymond]

You go home.

[G]

That's it. There's something happening.

[Narrator]

That's that. They moved on. Talked about other things.

[Chris Lundy]

I felt cheated. I had talked to everyone else.

[Narrator]

Chris never got the background he wanted. He figured it was for the reasons Dr. DeSear said, the cultural discomfort. Even if he'd gotten past it, it seemed his aunt never would.

[Chris Lundy]

So where I was at this point was, you know, there were some things that were. For example, you know, I was sick. You know, it was really, really bad. But there was still a mystery in terms of how I got better. I initially set out to get answers to some factual questions. I didn't get answers to all of that, but what I did get was answers to things that are far more important. I learned about my mother. I think that the longer my mother was in America, I think that she was becoming more and more Americanized, bringing me to the voodoo doctor in that moment. My mother was Haitian, you know, full on Haitian. I think that my mother would have went down almost any road to try to get me better. You know, my mother passed away. She was 39 years old, and I was 17 years old. So when she passed, I still saw her as ma. But through this journey, I think I have a clearer picture of who she was as a woman and who she was as a parent, as a protector. And I love her for it, and I know that she loved me.

[Narrator]

And as far as how Chris got.

[Chris Lundy]

Better, I am more comfortable sitting with the mystery of it. I'm never gonna know why I got better. A voodoo priest would say, I got better because of the potion that I took. Western medicine doctor would say, I'm missing some facts or lucky break. I think what matters is what always mattered, and that is I got better.

[Glenn Washington]

Big thanks to why's the Pulse, who originally aired this story. Their podcast features stories about people and places at the heart of health and science. Chris Lundy is a storyteller who's performed at First Person Arts, Risk, USA Today's Storytellers Project, and lots more. This story is produced and reported by Chris Lundy and Justin Kraymond. It was edited by Mike and Scott and Lindsey Lazarski, with sound design by Mike and Scott, engineering by Charlie Kyer. Special thanks to Du Nalio Cherie for his help on the story after the break. You're in the army now and the army doesn't want to hear your excuses. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment, the medicine man episode. My name is Glenn Washington. Today, real stories from real people wondering if the doctor is in. Now you've asked, we have answered. Our next storyteller, Snap, is a longtime friend of the show, Ray Christian. And aside from being a storytelling legend, Ray's an Army man. Snap judgment.

[Justin Kraymond]

In 1984, I was a 22 year old young sergeant assigned to an airborne infantry battalion. We were paratroopers. I was stationed at Fort Bragg. We'd conduct night combat equipment jumps that would involve thousands of paratroopers at once. The training was dangerous and it wasn't unusual for us to have guys severely injured or even killed during these training operations. We had young soldiers in the company that were Grenada vets and our senior NCOs. A lot of them were Vietnam vets. Our young soldiers who were just chomping at the bit to get a chance at combat. Guys start doing drugs, guys start drinking. Guys have problems with their wives, their girlfriends. Morale in the company was starting to drop and this added up to so much stress. We had a few guys go awol. Me and Sergeant Ronnie were assigned to inventory the soldier's locker and equipment who had went awol. Uniforms, civilian clothing, radio clock. And in the corner there's this little folded bindle of aluminum foil unfolded. And I saw inside were two small stamps with stars on them. Whoa. Acid? Nah. So I took one of the stamps out and I said, hey, Ronnie, put one of these in your mouth. He looked at me and he said, what is this? Acid. I figured it was acid, but I wasn't gonna really take one. I was just fooling around with him, you know, put it in your mouth. Just kidding with him. He looked at it for a second and said, why not? And put it in his mouth. And I laughed. Now, Sergeant Ronnie was the kind of guy that was very hyper military. He was kind of strict. He had a high pitched voice, pretty by the book kind of guy. He looked at me and said, so what are you gonna do? He must know something. I don't know. He wouldn't take acid. I just knew when he put it in his mouth it had to be fake. Then he looked at me and said, what are you gonna do? Say, hey, okay, same as you. I put one in my mouth.

[Glenn Washington]

We.

[Justin Kraymond]

Take the inventory sheet, we turn it into supply, we start heading Out. And as we were walking across the parking lot, the battalion sergeant major yelled out, hey, you two guys, what are you doing? Where you going? Oh, my God. Sergeant major. We said, we're heading out, Sergeant major, heading home. He said, oh, no, you're not. Get your gear. You're going on the jump. Because we had the additional duty of inventorying this guy's equipment, we believed that we weren't going to be involved in the jump. Beside the major, I think he cut me off. We need to get these chutes filled. Let's go. Let's move out. So I'm starting to think about all the things that go wrong. What if I get decapitated by a suspension line? What if I get towed behind the aircraft? What if I hit some equipment on the ground? I was starting to immediately feel fear and apprehension. If we would have said something like even slightly hesitant about being on a jump, it would have seemed suspicious. We call people who are not on jump status legs, and that's a dirty word. I would rather have died and turned down being on a jump. I wasn't going to be a leg. I was going to jump. I looked at Ron and I said, man, how you feel? He said, man, I don't feel nothing, but this is bad anyway. When we were on the trucks headed to the pack shed, this is at the air force base, I started having this feeling right then and there that everybody on the truck was staring at me. And I knew, oh, it's starting to kick in now. We all pour inside the rigger shed, all 500 of us, and one at a time, we're issued parachutes. As we enter inside, once you've got your parachute on and you got all your equipment hooked up, you stand in line for the jumpmaster's inspection. Open your ripcord protected flap hole, squat, hole, recovery, turn, bend, arch your back. Tick, tap, tap, tap, tick, tap, tap, turn, turn, squat, hold. I actually started saying that out loud, you know, squat, hole, squat. I was just saying it because I thought I should. And then I started thinking, wait a minute. If I do that, people will think I'm high, but if I act like I'm not high, they'll think I'm. Slowly. All the guys in line started getting their parachutes inspected, and we take a seat. I wanted to sit down, but I kept standing up. I kept walking around, and that was unusual. I started to think about how many thousands of paratroopers have been in this building preparing for a jump. And I was inspired to just yell out for everyone to hear. How many paratroopers have been in this place? I started thinking about there were ghosts maybe still impregnated in the memories of the building and in the walls. And I yelled that question out, too. Are there any ghosts in the walls? When I was startled by two. Well, what looked to be two World War II era paratroopers coming out of the walls, I couldn't help but walk closer to it, but on closer inspection was just a pattern of old paint scuffs on the wall. That's when I started to notice that other people were starting to stare at me, staring at them, and a few even laughed at me. And that's where I saw Ronnie. He was already rigged, sitting on the floor, crying, tears coming down his cheeks. To me, it was like a river of water. I asked Ronnie how he was doing. Ronnie looked at me and he just started to cry. And people noticed. I went to him and I said in a soft, loud voice, man, get yourself together. You are an American paratrooper. Do you know what our brothers have done before you? You act like a damn man. Get it together. And I started singing, and I'm not a singer, and I'm singing these corny airborne songs that they force on us. Gory, gory, what a hell of a way to die Gory, gory, what a hell of a way to die Gory, gory, what a hell of a way to die and you ain't gonna jump no more and I remember somebody yelling out, oh, that's pretty damn appropriate, Sergeant Christian. That's really appropriate. Ronnie stared. I reached out and I wiped his eye. A little tear was coming from it. And I helped him up, and then he assisted me in rigging my chute. Once everybody's inspected, we stand up and we all march out toward the back of the airplane. The only thing you can see inside a C130 at night like that is this. The red jump light above the jump door and down on the floor, and there's this hum of the plane. Usually the guys sleep, but I didn't. I was just focused on the light. I mean, it was beautiful. An Air Force pilot turns on the green light. Go. Door opened up, and the wind rushed in. Normally, you really feel the impact of the prop blast hitting you and you twist into the night sky. But I don't know. I had the sensation that I just jumped into a big old marshmallow cloud and I just floated out. The stars were starting to twinkle, the moon smiled at me. The parachutes billowing across the drop zone, they looked like ghosts they were just floating and dancing. And I could hear everything, every sound through my arms out, looked up like Jesus, started contemplating the nature of the universe. God, it was just beautiful. It was probably the best jump I ever had. I loved it. Loved it. Seemed like it took me forever to reach the ground. I landed in a sandy pile amongst the pine trees and thickets. The guy landed close to me, and he hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. And he gave out a oh. And I just yelled out across the whole drop zone. This is beautiful. And it just echoed. I know everybody heard that, but I couldn't help myself. It was beautiful. Like those other parachutes that were billowing across the drop zone. It looked like a woman in a dress. Through the darkness, I heard this sound, and I recognized it as the sound of vomiting. And instead of going to the assembly area, I followed that sound. And that led me to Sergeant Ronnie. And there he was, sitting on the ground, vomiting, and he was crying softly. And I was thinking to myself, he must be having a bad trip. And that's when I decided I wanted to sing to him. We're all Americans and proud to be guardians of honor and liberty. Some flying gliders to the enemy, Some come down as paratroopers. The next morning when I woke up, the company commander, who I always try to avoid because of his manner, when he saw me, he said to me, you know, you need to go see the battalion commander. He wants to talk to you about your behavior pre jump and on the drop zone. So the battalion commander doesn't speak to me. People in my rank don't usually get a chance to talk to him. And I go into the battalion commander's office. All the senior officers in the battalion were present. That kind of a group usually means something bad. You're getting some kind of ugly reprimand. And I was scared as hell. Then he said, never have I seen such an unselfish act as a man motivating his fellow paratroopers. Sticking with a scared, nervous man during every phase of the operation, even on the drop zone. Sergeant Christian, you are the personification of an American paratrooper. Keep up the good work, Airborne. I said, thank you, sir. Airborne. I can remember shaking my head as I was walking away from his office, going, damn. I was completely dumbfounded. I. What just happened, it was like the blade didn't cut my head, but it fell. In the mornings, when all the units are doing physical training and they run up and down Ardennes street, they're the loudspeakers where they play nothing but Non stop military martial music. And these old airborne songs are the ones that you hear. And when they would come across the speakers, we would all start singing them really loud to Sergeant Ronnie, you know, much to his chagrin. Sergeant Ronnie, you was scared on the drop zone, man. Sergeant Ronnie, what's up? You lost your nerve? You was having problems? Sergeant Ronnie, he be running with his butt cheeks really tight. He was too stiff and too anal to respond up to that point. Everything. All of our encounters were always serious. They really didn't have anything to joke about. There was nothing funny. I had my boys back again. They were back in their spirit.

[Glenn Washington]

Big thanks to Ray Christian, who is a storyteller living in Boone, North Carolina. Now, do yourself a favor. Subscribe to his podcast, what Ray say. It'll be available on our website or wherever you get your podcast. Snapjudgment.org do that. The original score and sound design was by Leon Morimoto. That story was produced by Adeza Egan. Now, when you're looking for a gift to give that special someone, do you know what's better than socks? Better than a tie? Better than a bottle of cheap perfume? I'll tell you what they really want. The story. You can give the gift of story by sending your friends and your enemies a little taste of the Snap Judgment podcast. They will be forever grateful, I promise. What? Did I. Did I mention that Snap's evil twin podcast, Spoop, is available everywhere? That's two for one. Come on, players. Temp Judgment is brought to you with a team that will always drink the entire contents of any vial you offer them. Except for the uber brews from Mr. Mark Ristich. He'll take two. There's Nancy Lopez, Pat Messini, Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Goriot, John Fasilla, Shayna Shealy, Taylor D'Cott, Flo Riley, Marissa Dodge, Fox Walsh, David Exume, Regina Bediaco. And of course, you may have heard this is not the news. No way is this the news. In fact, after pouring her an extra glass of wine, you could coax your auntie into revealing that, yes, yes, it is true that she did cut you out of her last will and testament. And that's exactly what you get for asking all Those crazy questions, Mr. Snap Judgment radio man. Man. You happy now, huh? Huh? Do that and you would still, still not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is prx.