← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
It's better over here now. AT T Mobile get four 5G phones on us and four lines for $25.
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Jessica Norwood
A line per month when you switch with eligible trade ins.
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Brandon Norwood
All on America's largest 5G network. Minimum of 4 lines for $25 per.
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Farnoosh Tarabi
Line per month with auto pay discount using debit or bank account, $5 more.
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Brandon Norwood
Per line without autopay plus taxes and.
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Farnoosh Tarabi
Fees and $10 device connection charge phones.
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Brandon Norwood
Via 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers.
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Farnoosh Tarabi
Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on a required finance agreement due.
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Brandon Norwood
Bill credits end if you pay off devices early.
- [00:29]
Farnoosh Tarabi
CT mobile.com bring the magic to every holiday gathering with help from Whole Foods Market. Decorate the table with their vibrant Winter Wonder arrangement, which also makes a great host gift preparing the big meal. Find great sales on no Antibiotics Ever New York strip Steak and their new organic spiral cut Bone in ham. Want some help in the kitchen? Order catering@shop.wfm.com Make Whole Foods Market your holiday party headquarters. Terms apply. So Money Episode 1762 the Best Framework for managing your money as a couple.
- [01:09]
Brandon Norwood
You're listening to so Money with award.
- [01:11]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Winning money guru Farnoosh Khorabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose.
- [01:15]
Brandon Norwood
Of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life.
- [01:32]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Welcome to so Money.
- [01:35]
Brandon Norwood
I think we've all heard of the scenario where sometimes the man is the one handling all the finances and the woman thinks that everything is fine. And then 15 years on the line they find out that their the husband has not been doing what he's supposed to do and now they're broke and now they're about to lose their house and everything like that. I kind of think those might be, you know, in that area of Unforgiven. You can't forgive that.
- [01:57]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Welcome to so Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. When it comes to money and relationships, most couples struggle to get on the same page. In fact, less than 40% of married couples discuss their finances in detail, and this is a statistic that often leads to miscommunication, conflict, and for some, divorce. Our guests today, Jessica and Brandon Norwood, are on a mission to change that narrative. The Norwoods are the dynamic duo behind the Sugar Daddy Podcast, a show dedicated to helping millennials break the stigma around money conversations and build wealth. As a team, Jessica And Brandon are a married couple with children who've navigated everything from student loans to merging their financial lives. They bring a wealth of personal and professional insight to the table. Jessica is a tech professional and the breadwinner in their family. And Brandon is a licensed financial planner. And together they've developed a proven five step framework work for creating financial harmony in relationships. And we're going to get into it. We're going to dive into the importance of shared values and financial alignment. Financial deal breakers. There are just some things that are unforgivable. What are they? What it's like to be a female breadwinner. And how Jessica and Brandon embrace modern parenthood and partnership. And finally, a bold take on affording kids. If you're on the fence about having kids because you're not financially ready, Brandon and Jessica have an important message. Jessica and Brandon Norwood, welcome to SO Money.
- [03:35]
Brandon Norwood
Thank you for having us.
- [03:36]
Jessica Norwood
We're so excited to be here with you, Farnish.
- [03:38]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I'm a big fan, a big follower. You're the host of the Sugar Daddy podcast. Can we just talk about the title here for a second? Because you make more than Brandon. Why are you calling a podcast that you host? The Sugar Daddy Podcast.
- [03:52]
Jessica Norwood
You know, it came to me in a dream, which sounds unreal and so fake, but I promise it did. I woke up at like 3am, put it in my phone phone, didn't think about it for weeks. And I was like, I feel like I put something in my phone about a podcast. And so we just ran with it because that's exactly what I wrote down. The Sugar Daddy podcast. How to become one. How to ensure that you don't need one. And yeah, I'm the sugar daddy, so it's fine.
- [04:16]
Brandon Norwood
You know, it works out 100%. Her idea, it was not mine at all.
- [04:20]
Farnoosh Tarabi
The new Sugar Daddy. You know, when I was writing my book When She Makes More, the working title before it became When She Makes More was the New Trophy Wife.
- [04:29]
Jessica Norwood
Mm. I love it.
- [04:31]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Somebody else wants to take that. Listen, it's all yours. Yeah.
- [04:34]
Jessica Norwood
Yeah, I love it.
- [04:36]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Well, we're here obviously to talk about one of our favorite topics, something that is very near and dear to your work and also your personal life, which is money and couples. You have a proven five step framework, which I'm excited to get into and learn from you both. But first, let's get personal. Let's talk about the two of you as you have navigated money in your marriage. And I love that we can talk about women, breadwinners. I don't get to talk about it enough on this podcast. How did things start with the two of you? Was it easygoing? What were the conflicts? Brandon, you're a financial planner, so you're coming to this relationship with a lot of expertise.
- [05:15]
Brandon Norwood
But I was new to financial planning when we actually started dating. I just got into financial services, so I didn't have, obviously, the years under my belt that I have now. So it was a little bit different at that time period, though, I think.
- [05:29]
Jessica Norwood
For us, we started as friends, which was really helpful because you don't really have to prove anything. You're just friends. But then when our relationship, a friendship, evolved into what we knew was going to be something really special, we had the hard conversations from the very beginning. My parents were going through a divorce at the time. I was in my late 20s. Brandon was in his early 30s. His parents are divorced. So we're both products of divorce. And we basically said, we're going to do this once, and that's it. And I know people say that, but we really meant it. And so we just laid it all out. I knew I was coming in with over $100,000 in student loans. He had no student loans. We both owned homes. We were merging our lives. We weren't in our late teens, early 20s. We had established lives. We've been paying our bills. We were managing our debts. And so we just talked about everything really early and really honestly. And we realized over time, people don't do that. People spend more time planning their wedding than they do planning their marriage. And we did not want to be those people. So that was really the start of it.
- [06:40]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I used to say, you're not getting weddinged, you're getting married.
- [06:44]
Jessica Norwood
Yes.
- [06:44]
Farnoosh Tarabi
So act like it.
- [06:46]
Jessica Norwood
Yes.
- [06:47]
Farnoosh Tarabi
So given that a lot of people do not talk about money, I think you gave me a statistic earlier, which is 40%. Less than 40% of married couples discuss their finances in detail. That's while they're married. Let's forget when they're about to get married. It is totally off the table. And so a lot of couples are catching up. How do you have the conversation for the first time?
- [07:08]
Jessica Norwood
This is where I think we had our special sauce. And I want to be very clear. This is not us saying, we have a perfect marriage, do it the way we do it. That's not what this is. He gets on my nerves all the time. He's my favorite person on the planet. But, like, I roll my eyes at him 20 times a day. I mean, let's be real. It's Still a marriage. However, the one thing that we've always done really well is we've dreamed big. We have a grand vision for our life together. And when I want to do the home decor and the accent wall that's going to cost $1,600, but also take the family trip to Jamaica for Christmas, he can pull me back to say, hey, wait a minute, what were our goals for the year? Let's go back to where we're grounding ourselves, what we wanted for our family, what we wanted for our children. And when you have conversations like that, it gets much easier to say, you know what? I don't need that accent wall. We can, we can push that down the to do list. What I really want, and for us, it's really important, is to make those memories with our children, to spend that time with our families. And so having those visions and those shared goals really is what helps drive the monetary factor. Because the money is. The money is money. It's money in, it's money out. That's black and white. He's good at that. When you dream big and you have the shared vision, that's when you can root yourself in. Why are you making the decisions that you're making? Why are you spending the way you're spending? But a lot of that comes from past trauma, the way we grew up with money. And so our five step framework actually dives into that, um, really nicely.
- [08:44]
Brandon Norwood
And I would say with scheduling, you know, the first initial conversation, you kind of just gotta tear the bandaid off. Like, you just have to go ahead and do it. And I would say schedule it, because too often what happens is, is that you tentatively think about things like, oh, we'll do it on this day or whatever. And then obviously life happens and you push the meeting back and back and it ends up never happening. So we always recommend putting it on both of your calendars and scheduling the time to do it.
- [09:07]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Jessica, as the breadwinner, were you always making more? And how has that, how has that been for you as married people? And I also want to know as a follow up, did you ever feel as the breadwinner, that you had more power in the relationship?
- [09:23]
Jessica Norwood
So when we first met and started dating, I was in teaching. So no, we were probably equal. I was teaching in South Carolina. Unfortunately, we all know teachers don't make enough money. And so, no. But after I moved to North Carolina, when we knew that we were going to get engaged, get married, I actually switched into the tech sector. And then that's when my salary you know, kind of exploded, especially in comparison to my teaching salary. Luckily, Brandon, he grew up with a single mom. She was always the breadwinner. She was always the provider. And so his thought process around women who make more is always like, you do you, babe. You go, girl. You know, because it's our money. And again, we're sharing that grand vision. We have the same goals for what we want our family to be. You know, what we want to do as far as being work optional. And so it is, quote, unquote, my money because it's my paycheck, but it's our money because we operate as a team. And so I've never felt from him that there's a shift in power dynamic. Right. He's also the person who drops the kids off and picks them up from school. When the teachers see my face, they're like, oh, you exist. You know, so that's different. He's unloading the dishwasher, he's folding the laundry. I mean, we very much are more in this, like, modern parenthood stage where you do what needs to be done to keep the family moving forward. And so those typical gender roles don't really apply to us in that way.
- [10:51]
Brandon Norwood
Yeah, how she said, like, I grew up in a household where my mom was a college professor, and thankfully, even a single household money was never an issue. My mom has done very well for herself, and so I was accustomed to seeing that you have household things that need to be done, and they just need to be done. Doesn't matter if the males doing their, females doing them. And, you know, when it comes to us, it's a matter of who has the ability to get it done. So, you know, there are certain things that, you know, maybe I do. I do more, certain things that she does more. But overall, it's like, this is our house together. What needs to be done, who has availability to do it, and what works best for our schedule.
- [11:26]
Farnoosh Tarabi
So what I'm learning and what's being reinforced is that your success as a couple around money really also depends on putting away these gender role expectations around money. Do you see this coming up a lot, Brandon, in your practice?
- [11:41]
Brandon Norwood
So I would say yes and no, because the reason being is that most of my clients, I would say, kind of mirror us in regards to. I think most of the time, it's the woman that's reaching out to contact me, and then I'm also seeing that it is actually, you know, the woman that tends to be actually driving a little bit more of the planning process. So I would Say that maybe I'm the outlier in that aspect, or maybe that's just how things are shifting.
- [12:06]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I love that. I love that little anecdote. Yeah, I hope it's going to become more and more of the trend. I mean, ultimately you want everybody sharing in this conversation and feeling equally a part of this financial planner relationship, because it used to be and it still is. I think I would still say it is. Yeah, it probably still is. Where the breadwinner is the one who takes, takes the lead and then is the one who is the main communicator. You know, you've talked about the importance of having shared values, conversation, scheduling the conversations. But you also need to know your money personalities and your histories with money. I mean, Brandon, you having a role model in your mom, that's not insignificant. And so how do couples sort of get oriented with your money personality? And I think I read a statistic that opposites attract. So spenders like savers.
- [12:59]
Brandon Norwood
And I don't necessarily think that opposites attract because I can tell you from first hand experience, you know, sitting down with opposites, that it doesn't work.
- [13:07]
Jessica Norwood
Well, our parents are very much opposites too, with who they married and where you look at them now. Like, why? I mean, thanks for having us, but why?
- [13:16]
Brandon Norwood
But I would say that one of the biggest things that is overlooked when it comes to the financial planning aspect is that people don't assess who they are as a person and their relationship with money from an emotional standpoint as an adult and what, you know, led to that. And most of the time it's going to be how you were, how your family was growing up when it came to money. You know, did your parents have enough money? Did they not have enough money? Did they talk to you about money? Did they not talk to you about money? All those things that you learn at such a very young age very much play into how you interact with money as an adult, whether that's from a positive standpoint or from a negative standpoint. And people need to dig into that and can kind of figure out what it is that has led them to where they're at today.
- [13:56]
Jessica Norwood
That's actually the first step in our framework, is diving into that past is really understanding why am I the way I am with my money? Why do I feel the way I feel about my money? Because it usually does come from that childhood and adolescence phase of your life.
- [14:12]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And it's an important step because would you say it builds compassion and some empathy where before you're kind of operating in a Vacuum. You don't really know where this person's attitude came from and why else is this an important step?
- [14:26]
Brandon Norwood
It provides great context for how you are now when it comes to money, because you might be doing things and your spouse is completely wondering, why would you do it this way? Why are you thinking this way? Why are you acting this way? Why do you have this emotional reaction to this? And by, you know, digging into your. By diving deep into your past and understanding that, like I said, it provides context, and it provides a way for you to move forward, to change maybe some of the behaviors that you do want to change.
- [14:49]
Jessica Norwood
I do think there's that part of empathy, though. Like you said, Farnoosh, you know, you're on the same team. That's one of the most important parts that people should strive for, is, this is not a you against me. This is an us. How do we move our family forward? How do we reach our goals together? And when you do come from a place of empathy and understanding and getting that context right, then you're like, oh, I understand why Brandon takes three months to buy a pair of $150 sunglasses. Whereas I'm like, boop, add to cart. You know, so it really just. It helps you understand your partner so that when you go into these finance conversations, you understand why he wants to spend four months, you know, pulling prices and doing due diligence. And I'm like, let's get three quotes and let's keep it moving. You know, it really helps you understand why is my spouse the way they are.
- [15:44]
Brandon Norwood
Also, one additional thing that I think we should kind of maybe sometimes move away from. When it comes to the saver versus the spender, when women are labeled being the spenders, women also tend to be the person who takes care of buying everything that you need in the household. So groceries, clothes for the kids, everything of that nature. So they are spending more, but they have to, because this is the stuff that the household needs, Right?
- [16:06]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And maybe they're quicker to make decisions around spending because they've gotten their reps in.
- [16:11]
Jessica Norwood
Exactly.
- [16:11]
Farnoosh Tarabi
They know already they can do the cost comparison calculus in their head because they know. You know what I mean? Like, we have 20 brains, us women, and they're all operating at the same time at 100 miles per hour. So give us that credit. Thank you, Brandon, for pointing that out.
- [16:25]
Jessica Norwood
Yes.
- [16:26]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yet so many marriages end in divorce, with money as a central conflict, a reason why it drove them to separation. And some of those marriages could have been helped and saved with some therapy with some with your five step framework, and there are probably others where they're better off getting divorced. Are there certain financial issues that could come up in your marriage that you see as deal breakers?
- [16:52]
Brandon Norwood
I mean, I would honestly say, you know, obviously infidelity is a big deal breaker in general, but financial infidelity as well. So, like, you know, are you hiding money from your spouse?
- [17:04]
Jessica Norwood
Are you hiding debts?
- [17:05]
Brandon Norwood
Yeah. Are you hiding debts? I would say stuff of that nature, you know, that. I think we've all heard of the scenario where sometimes the man is the one handling all the finances and the woman thinks that everything is fine. And then 15 years on the line, they find out that their, the husband has not been doing what he's supposed to do and now they're broke and now they're about to lose their house and everything like that. I kind of think those might be, you know, in that area of Unforgiven, you can't forgive that.
- [17:31]
Jessica Norwood
But also you have a responsibility, you know, especially in those heteronormative type relationships where it's like the man handles the money and the woman is like, everything's fine. No, you need to check. This is where those money meetings come in. Pull up the accounts, pull up the statements, know what you have. And that's not to say don't trust your spouse, but you know, there's checks and balances you should, as a partnership, understand, hey, where's our life insurance? What is in our savings account? You know, if you are a stay at home parent and your husband is the one going to work every day, you still have a right to ask questions about where that money is going, how it's spent, where it's being allocated. So this, I'm going to put my head in the sand and hope and pray that everything's okay. You know, you have to take accountability for yourself as well and ask those questions. And red flag if those questions are not getting answered or they're getting answered with hesitation and resistance. That would be a big red flag.
- [18:26]
Brandon Norwood
For, I mean, like, so, for example, like we have a join account, but we also have our separate accounts, but we have access to each other's separate accounts.
- [18:32]
Jessica Norwood
They're not secret accounts. They're not separate accounts.
- [18:34]
Brandon Norwood
That's just the way that we choose to do it.
- [18:36]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Coming up, Brandon and Jessica say they're not getting a divorce ever. But then why did they decide to get a postnup? Stay tuned. Last Christmas, I gifted my mother this gorgeous cashmere sweater in a beautiful burgundy. And she still talks about it. It's so nice when you can get someone a gift they wouldn't necessarily get for themselves. That little bit of luxury that they don't know they're missing. And can you guess where that sweater was from? For quality gifts at an affordable price, my go to is Quince. Quince lets you treat your loved ones and yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. Whatever you're looking for, all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. How do they do that? By partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman which passes the savings on to you. Quince is on the nice list. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. Gift Luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag, go to quince.com somoney for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com somoney to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com somoney have you ever experienced a dry, itchy scalp? Or like me, wondered why your hair color isn't lasting as long as your hairdresser promised? Well, unfiltered mineral filled water could be the reason why. Water is in fact a leading cause of damaged hair and dry, irritated skin. And about 85% of the United States uses hard water filled with dissolved minerals and added chlorine. That's why we install called Canopy's Filtered Shower Head in our home. Canopy, known for their beauty hacks and reimagined humidifier, has revolutionized the filtered showerhead space with not one filtered shower head but a handheld version as well. Dermatologists recommended this unique three stage filtration system greatly reduces contaminants and odors in your shower water, leaving you with healthier hair and glowing skin. The Canopy's filtered shower heads are hassle free, installation is a breeze and its unique filter replacement feature allows for seamless filter changes. Go to GetCanopy Co to save $25 on your Canopy filtered showerhead purchase today with Canopy's hassle free filter subscription. And while you're there, use the code somoney at checkout to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Hurry. Your hair and skin will thank you. What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost.
- [21:06]
Brandon Norwood
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- [21:30]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Magic to every holiday gathering with help from Whole Foods Market. Decorate the table with their vibrant winter wonder arrangement which also makes a great host gift preparing the big meal. Find great sales on no Antibiotics Ever New York strip steak and their new organic spiral cut bone in ham. Want some help in the kitchen? Order catering@shop.wfm.com Make Whole Foods Market your holiday party headquarters. Terms apply. Talk a little bit more about how to organize your money together. What you recommend. I'm already hearing that you do like multiple accounts as opposed to everything in one big pot. I also am a proponent of that because I find that it resolves so much unnecessary friction and back and forth over minor and medium sized costs expenses like you want to get a haircut and you want to buy your Nikes like you should have your own money. But what are some other ways, like tactical ways that you think couples can should operate in their financial lives together?
- [22:35]
Jessica Norwood
I think it comes down to when was your life together established? I think there's a very different picture that forms when you're 22 out of college getting married versus when you're in your 30s, early 40s. You've had homes, your entire kitchen is stocked, you've been paying your bills for two decades, Right? That looks different. Our big thing is always you get to make your own rules for your partnership. But we are encouraging everybody to have the conversation. What do you want it to look like? Do you want to do a percentage? Right. Does it make sense if our salaries aren't equal to split things 50, 50? Maybe we do it based on a percentage. What do we want our savings rate to be? I work, you know, corporate girly over here 9 to 5. I have a 401k. He is an entrepreneur so he has to do his retirement savings differently than I do. I get company stock and all those nice things that come with that corporate life. He doesn't. And so we really have to map out, well, what does it look like? Just because, you know, I'm in corporate and I get my stocks and my nice 401k match doesn't mean that he should also still be saving for retirement. So it really comes back down to that conversation of that shared vision and goals. What are the goals together? And in our dream framework, which is what we're calling it, Dream D R E A M. We start with dive. So that's diving into the past, like you talked about. Farnoosh. Where. Where did my mindset come from? How did I grow up with money? Why am I the way I am? And why do I feel the way I feel about money? Next you're going to reflect on how does that show up in your daily life? Right. Why does my partner get upset when I say this? And how does that tie back to how I grew up with money? Right. So you have that reflection stage. Next you're going to engage with each other. That's the E. So that's where you dream big. And I don't mean, hey, we want to go to Greece next year. No, I want to fly this kind of plane on this class. I want to stay here, I want to eat this. I want to do these activities. You dig into the details, you know, like specific dream big dream in detail. And you can have your separate dreams. You should have your own separate dreams. You are still an individual, but have your dreams. Let your partner have their dreams. But what is your shared goal? Dream and vision together. That's where you. This is the fun stuff. Because if you can't dream big together, who, Life's going to be hard, you know. Yeah.
- [25:00]
Brandon Norwood
And I said there's no one way to do it. The biggest thing is that you need to make sure that you guys are having the conversation and then you guys are in agreement on how you're going to do it and move forward.
- [25:09]
Jessica Norwood
Money in one pot and then it comes out. Money out and then it comes in. It doesn't matter. Just have the conversation be on the same page.
- [25:16]
Brandon Norwood
That's all there is.
- [25:16]
Jessica Norwood
I'm going to finish up. Dream though, and then act for a. You have to take action. Right? That's always. You can't just have big dreams and then just sit on them, or at least we don't want you to. And then there's the managing portion. That's the part where you actually get to decide, how are we managing our money? What does our money look like? Do we want to focus on debt reduction? Do we want to increase our retirement? Some people, you know, they're like, oh, well, I want to retire. Well, when? How are you going to get there? What does a random Tuesday at 2:00 in your 60s look like? You know, we want you to. Again, tie it back to, what is that vision? What is that goal for your retirement? Some people want to retire in their early 40s, some people in their 60s, some people don't have a plan at all for retirement. But we want you to dream big about it. We know a lot of couples in our parents age where one person is retired, the other person isn't. And it's weird, right? Like, you can't just travel the world when your partner's still working. And we just look at that as well. Did you plan this together? Because I know him and I want to be work optional together. That's the fun stuff. And so that dream framework really outlines that emotional part about why we are the way we are with money, mixed with a little bit of the tactical but overarching. You get to make the rule.
- [26:33]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I want to double click on the work optional plan in a minute. But as I'm hearing you, I'm wondering, does all. Does dream work the dream framework work for couples who want to just cohabitate and they don't want to get married? More couples are choosing not to get married but still share their lives together. Are there additional strategies or different things to consider in that scenario?
- [26:56]
Brandon Norwood
I think from the overall framework, 100% it works for a couple in general, whether you're married or not, same sex doesn't matter because the framework is there. Now when it comes to maybe some of the tactical things that are in place, you might, from a legality standpoint, some of that nature, have to do a couple things different because as a married couple, there are certain rights that you automatically are granted as compared to if you're not married. So from that standpoint, you might change some things, but overall it doesn't change it at all.
- [27:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Right. Maybe more paperwork. More legal paperwork. Paperwork, yeah. Definitely a prenup of sorts.
- [27:29]
Brandon Norwood
Or post.
- [27:30]
Jessica Norwood
Or post. We're getting a post nup this year or 2025.
- [27:34]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Tell me about that. What prompted it?
- [27:36]
Jessica Norwood
Yes.
- [27:36]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Who brought it up?
- [27:38]
Jessica Norwood
So we had Erin Thomas, who's a prenup attorney, on our podcast, and he did a wonderful job of really just changing our mindset because I think too many people think that the prenup is you're planning for your marriage to fail. And the reality is your state already gave you a prenup, so depending on what state you live in, you have already signed one. So why not write your own rules now? We're past that. We've been married for years, so we can't get the prenup, but we can get the post up. And so now we're in that process of, well, what. What do we want it to say? And again, because we're already aligned, we have the same Goals and visions. It's going to be pretty straightforward. Right. My retirement is. Retirement is mine, his is his. Whatever inheritance we get from our families, mine is mine, his is his. We just want to put some legality around it and you know, for $3,500, getting this in place and not having to fight about it when our Aaron calls it, you know, when your love and respect are high, put these rules in place. When you actually love each other, when you can have a civil conversation, when you can outline what's important to you. When you're fighting and you're angry and you don't want to look at that person in the face anymore. That's not the time to then try to figure out your money. The time is when you're happy and in love.
- [28:51]
Brandon Norwood
Yeah. And the reality is that you, you know, I wish I could say I know the future, but I can't predict the future. Although she stuck with me. But outside of that, you know, putting these, like she said, putting these things in place right now while you are on good terms will make it a lot easier if, you know, God forbid that it does come to that day.
- [29:11]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I had Aaron on so money as well. He's brilliant.
- [29:14]
Jessica Norwood
He's amazing. He's so great. Oh my gosh.
- [29:16]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I'll link that in our show notes. So tell me about this work optional dream. How you're working towards it and how close are you. Are you in the fire movement?
- [29:24]
Jessica Norwood
No, girl, I like nice things. I cannot do fire. It's not for me. No. We also, you know, travel is our love, language, quality time. And now that our kids are older, you know, we're starting to travel with them much more. And so our work optional number is 50. So I'll be 40 in next year. He'll be 42. So we've got eight to 10 years. But by the time we're older parents, so by the time our kids are teenagers, we want to be work optional so that when they call us, we can drop whatever we're doing and be there and travel the world and make those lasting memories with them. But we want to do it in a way that we can still enjoy life. Now we're not going to be cutting back drastically. Like we just bought two new cars. I know people would gasp at that. You know, there's things like that where.
- [30:17]
Farnoosh Tarabi
We'Re talking to the person who leased her second car. Okay. I'm basically in personal finance hell.
- [30:23]
Jessica Norwood
Exactly.
- [30:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And Suzy Orman is.
- [30:26]
Jessica Norwood
And we got Honda's and yeah, you know Honda, the favorite millionaire car but listen, we get to make our own rules. That's the point. Right? And so I'm still in tech. I mean, the Internet will have you believing you have to quit your job, you have to be an entrepreneur, you have to have 20 rental properties to hit your retirement number. I really like the corporate life. There's a lot of perks, there's benefits. My whole family gets health insurance. He doesn't have to pay for our health insurance within an outrageous amount of money. I mean, it works for us. And so I plan on working for the next decade and at that point, you know, depending on what work looks like, if I want to continue to do that, whatever his business goals are, you know, working on those together, obviously growing the podcast is very high on our list. But we're going to pivot and make those changes and adjustments as we need to as a couple. But fire is not in our future.
- [31:21]
Brandon Norwood
And for me, like, I personally enjoy what I do as far as the financial planning aspect. And, you know, the idea of retirement kind of came about because most people's jobs originally were blue collar jobs. And, you know, once you got to a certain age, you just physically couldn't do the job. That's not the case with most of us. You know, we have white collar jobs where if we're of sound mind and we enjoy what we're doing, what we're doing, we don't have to necessarily retire at, you know, 60, 65 years old.
- [31:46]
Farnoosh Tarabi
We've talked a lot about managing money as couples, but when kids enter the picture now you have these dependents, and I know a lot of people are on the fence about even starting the, you know, going in that direction of having children because of the cost. What would you say to those, those individuals don't have kids?
- [32:05]
Brandon Norwood
Yeah. If you're, if you're waiting, if you're waiting to have kids, if you're waiting to have enough money to have kids, you're not going to have kids. That's just, I mean, that's just a reality because you can think of all the expenses that, you know, you're think you're going to have with a kid and more come up. And that's just the honest truth. You kind of just have to be prepared for the unprepared. You have to be prepared for the unknown.
- [32:27]
Jessica Norwood
I think it'll slow down your retirement plan 100%. Unless you're already making millions. I mean, the amount of money that you are happily spending on children. Right. It's a lot. I mean, we look around, we have several friends that have chosen not to have children. And they're the ones with the beach houses and the mountain houses and the boats and the ones, you know, picking up on a random Friday and saying, oh, yeah, we booked a trip to Maui. Can you meet us there? No, I cannot. So you look at them and you're like, wow, they're living their best life ever.
- [32:59]
Brandon Norwood
But obviously after Rage went back in, I'm like, yeah, we're spending over $30,000 a year on daycare.
- [33:06]
Jessica Norwood
Right. So, you know, they're putting it in their retirement.
- [33:09]
Brandon Norwood
If we didn't have kids, yeah, we could buy that boat, buy that beach house.
- [33:12]
Jessica Norwood
Exactly. And obviously, we adore children. Would not change our life of parenthood. I mean, they are our everything. But you do have to be realistic. And if you have certain monetary goals, just know that having children will likely slow that goal down.
- [33:26]
Brandon Norwood
I'm also of the mindset that you should be 100% certain that you want to have kids, because it's going to be the hardest thing that you do. And if you have any doubt, maybe you shouldn't. You know, I've. We've always wanted to have kids. We talked about it. We talked exactly how many kids we actually wanted to have. And so that was conversations we had. Honestly, that was conversations we had when we had probably been dating for, like, maybe a month. And, you know, before we even started dating, we did have the conversation on. I asked her, I was like, do you want to have kids? Because I want to have kids. Because if you don't want to have kids, we don't need a date. So those are conversations to have early.
- [34:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
To be honest, that is legit. You know, maybe 10 years ago, when I wasn't a parent but knew I really, really wanted kids, I would say to people, why wouldn't you want to have kids? You should have kids if you think you want to have kids. Now that I'm a parent and I love my children, but I really know what it takes, and I'm. I'm so glad I wouldn't obviously change my decision. But I answer that question with some more perspective and, you know, real life, like, if you're asking yourself, but what if my life changes? You know, people come up to you, like, I heard that, like, you know, we like to fly first class, and we don't want to raise brats. So, like, what do we do? I'm like, that's. That don't have kids. Don't have kids. You will be sorely unhappy. You will be so disappointed. And that is not a good parent for a child to be fully resentful your entire parenting career. This has been so much fun. Jessica and Brandon Norwood, Finance pros, hosts of the Sugar Daddy Podcast, thank you so much. Rooting for your work optional life. I'll be listening to your podcast. Thank you so much.
- [35:09]
Jessica Norwood
Thank you for having me.
- [35:10]
Brandon Norwood
Thanks for having us.
- [35:13]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Thanks so much to Jessica and Brandon Norwood for joining us. I've got all the links for working with them and learning more from them in our show notes. I'll see you back here on Wednesday. Our guest will be Faye McCrae and we're going to talk about balancing your ambitions with your emotional well being. How to reframe success and get only the important things done before the New year. Because I'll tell you right now, if you have something on your to do list that you haven't done yet in 2024, why kill yourself to get it done in the next two weeks? Our upcoming episode gives you the permission you didn't know you needed. I'll see you then. And I hope your day is so money this holiday season. When you can't be there. Let 1-800-Flowers com deliver at 1-800-Flowers every gift is crafted with care and designed to make spirits bright. From classic holiday bouquets and unique one of a kind designs to gift bundles you can't find anywhere else, 1-800-FLowers makes it easy to stay connected no matter the distance. Just a few clicks and your thoughtful gift is on its way. Visit 1-800-flowers.com acast to deliver joy, beauty and celebration this holiday season. Bring the magic to every holiday gathering with help from Whole Foods Market. Decorate the table with their vibrant Winter Wonder arrangement which also makes a great host gift preparing the big meal. Find great sales on no Antibiotics Ever New York Strip Steak and their new organic Spiral cut Bone in Ham. Want some help in the kitchen? Order catering@shop.wfm.com Make Whole Foods Market your holiday party headquarters. Terms apply.