1781: How to AI-Proof Your Job Before It’s Too Late

Summary

So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode 1781: How to AI-Proof Your Job Before It’s Too Late

Release Date: January 29, 2025
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Dan Schabell, New York Times Bestselling Author, Workplace Expert, Managing Partner at Workplace Intelligence

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Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 1781 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi, host Farnoosh Torabi delves into a pressing and timely topic: the intersection of artificial intelligence (AI) and the future of employment. With AI rapidly reshaping the job market, Farnoosh brings in expert Dan Schabell to discuss strategies for safeguarding one’s career against automation and to explore broader workplace trends influenced by technological advancements.

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AI Impact on the Job Market

[01:50] Farnoosh Torabi:
“AI is changing the job market faster than any of us imagined, reshaping not just who gets hired, but whether certain jobs even exist in the future.”

Dan Schabell emphasizes the accelerating pace at which AI is transforming the workplace. He highlights a concerning trend where employers are increasingly favoring AI over human employees, especially for entry-level positions. Dan reveals findings from his recent research indicating that “some employers would rather hire ChatGPT than a recent college graduate” ([06:25]).

Notable Quote:
Dan Schabell [06:25]:
"The automation of entry-level jobs, especially in certain sectors, is a call to arms."

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College Education and ROI

Farnoosh brings attention to a survey co-led by Dan, revealing that 77% of recent graduates feel they learned more on the job within six months than during their entire four-year education ([05:22]). This stark realization questions the value of traditional college degrees in the contemporary job market.

Notable Quote:
Dan Schabell [05:22]:
"Almost all recent college graduates regret their degree choice, and 84% say that has affected their financial future."

Dan further critiques the rising costs of higher education, which now stand at an average of $1.8 trillion in student loan debt, compounded by annual tuition increases of 2-6% ([06:25]). He warns of a looming crisis where increasing education costs collide with diminishing job prospects, underscoring the urgent need for educational reforms.

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Future Job Prospects and Career Advice

When asked for advice to students and recent graduates, Dan acknowledges the complexity of individual financial situations but offers general strategies:

1. Learn AI and Data Analytics:
   "Data analytics from an HR perspective, people analytics would definitely be a good path to go in because it affects everything." ([35:48])

2. Pursue Internships and Freelancing:
   Gaining practical experience through internships or freelancing can bridge the gap between academic knowledge and workplace demands.

3. Develop Soft Skills:
   While currently prioritized by employers, Dan cautions that even soft skills might soon be automated:
   "A lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well." ([06:47])

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Workplace Trends: Hybrid Work and Return to Office

Dan discusses the ongoing debate between remote and in-office work. Post-COVID, many employees have grown accustomed to the flexibility of remote work, enjoying benefits like reduced commuting costs and better work-life balance ([24:33]). However, employers are increasingly pushing for a return to office settings to regain control and capitalize on existing office infrastructures.

Notable Quote:
Dan Schabell [24:33]:
"Companies want more control. It’s very Big Brother."

He notes that major companies like Goldman Sachs are enforcing return-to-office mandates, which can often serve as disguised strategies for workforce reduction ([24:33]).

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Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I) in the Workplace

The conversation shifts to DE&I, exploring its current challenges and misperceptions. Dan explains the politicization of DE&I efforts and how legislative changes are impacting corporate strategies.

Notable Quote:
Dan Schabell [28:33]:
"DE&I has been weaponized, and it sends the message that equal opportunity is under threat, which has massive ramifications across the workforce."

He references a McKinsey study highlighting the benefits of DE&I, such as increased corporate profits and productivity, contrasting it with recent setbacks where companies like Walmart are retracting their DE&I programs in response to political pressures ([32:39]).

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Silver Linings and Opportunities in the AI Era

Despite the threats posed by AI, Dan identifies several areas ripe with opportunity:

1. Data Analytics:
   As companies increasingly rely on data-driven decision-making, expertise in data analytics becomes invaluable.

2. Trade Skills:
   Blue-collar jobs like plumbing, electrical work, and HVAC services remain largely AI-resistant, offering stability and demand.

3. Revenue-Focused Roles:
   Positions that directly impact company revenue, such as those in sales and marketing, continue to thrive.

Notable Quote:
Dan Schabell [36:10]:
"If you can touch revenue somehow, whether you're in sales, marketing, or another field, that's going to be really important."

---

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Farnoosh and Dan wrap up the episode by reflecting on the future landscape of work. Dan expresses concern over the sustainability of arts and entertainment careers in an AI-dominated world but remains hopeful about alternative pathways within industries. They discuss the cultural backlash against AI and the potential for society to recalibrate its appreciation for human-driven creativity.

Notable Quote:
Farnoosh Torabi [40:23]:
"I wonder if we're going to get to a point where there will be an aversion to AI and a cultural swing back to appreciating human contributions."

Dan concurs, noting the significant pushback seen in industries like film, where audiences still prefer human actors over AI-generated content ([40:23]).

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Key Takeaways

• AI is rapidly transforming the job market, posing a threat to both entry-level and soft-skill-dependent positions.
• College degrees are increasingly perceived as less valuable, with many graduates feeling underprepared for the real-world workplace.
• Developing skills in AI, data analytics, and revenue-impacting roles can help safeguard one’s career against automation.
• Workplace dynamics are shifting towards re-emphasizing in-office work, often as a strategy for workforce management rather than pure preference.
• DE&I remains a contentious and politicized issue, with significant implications for corporate culture and workforce diversity.
• Opportunities still exist in trade professions and data-centric roles, offering stability amidst technological disruptions.

---

Further Resources

For more insights and access to Dan Schabell’s full study, visit the So Money Members Club and refer to the episode’s show notes.

Transcript

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So Money Episode 1781 how to AI proof your job before it's too late.

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers, and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.

[Dan Schabell]

Right now, employers are starting to prioritize more soft skills to things that can't easily be automated, right? But I would say in the future, honestly, I think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I never have thought of that.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Welcome to SEW Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Would your boss prefer to hire artificial intelligence than you? According to new research, a growing number of employers say they'd prefer to automate entry level jobs than hire a recent college graduate. AI is changing the job market faster than any of us imagined, reshaping not just who gets hired, but whether certain jobs even exist in the future. My guest today is Dan Schabell. He's a New York Times bestselling author, workplace expert, and managing partner at Workplace Intelligence. He's been tracking workplace Trends for over 15 years, advising companies on the future of work. And in his latest research, the results are kind of scary. Not only are companies rethinking the value of a college degree, but some are outright saying they'd rather hire ChatGPT. So what does this mean for us? Which jobs are actually safe from automation? And if you're in college right now or raising kids who might be one day, how do you ensure the education you receive actually pays off?

[Dan Schabell]

Here's Dan Shabell.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Dan Shabell, welcome back to Sew Money. It's been a minute and I'm so happy to have you here.

[Dan Schabell]

Absolutely. Finish. It's always a pleasure. Time flies, of course, in the past year, you know, so many life circumstances, you've been busy, you've moved, situations have.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Happened, you've been busy, you've been busy professionally and also personally. You've become a dad. How has becoming a parent changed your perspective on work?

[Dan Schabell]

I think with one kid, it's still been pretty manageable. My wife and I both work remotely. She's about eight feet from me or so. But we have our own separate rooms and, you know, it's, we figured it out because you have to. Right. And our son's in daycare, so, you know, we, we've created our own routines and has it changed how I think about work or anything? No, I mean, I just think about childcare a lot more. And that's, you know, that's one of the bigger workplace issues, especially in Massachusetts where the cost of childcare is very high and access is low. So I think that childcare is a big thing and a lot of people have dropped out of the workforce, namely women, because of a lack of childcare. In a post Covid world where, you know, more and more women and, you know, obviously men are forced to return to the office, which is another workplace trend. You know, return to office is, continues to be a massive, massive topic. I call it a Tier 2 topic because Tier 1 is AI cuts across our business.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So let's talk about these topics. You have been keeping your eye on the trends for your entire career. You know, you're someone who has a lot of understanding of not just what is happening in the workplace, but what is going to happen in the workplace. You have Sort of this crystal ball maybe, but you work with a lot of companies to sort of get the questions answered. And one of the questions you recently went out to get answers to was, are college students getting a value for their degrees? What are college graduates saying about their degrees and what they learned in school and the application in the real world? And I want to start with this new survey that you co led which found that 77% of recent grads say they learned more on the job within six months than in their entire four year education. A lot of these students studied business and had hard skill. Hard skills.

[Dan Schabell]

What we found, we interviewed 800, you know, HR decision makers, HR leaders, slash employers, and 800 employees. And we found that, you know, almost all recent college graduates regret their degree choice. And then 84% of those say that has affected their financial future. Of course, if you choose the wrong degree, some degree don't have as much ROI as others. And a lot of them just almost, you know, half feel doomed because of this wrong degree choice. That was a good portion of the study. But I mean, some of the other glaring stats, aside from the ones you said, is, you know, almost all employers are saying we don't even want to hire recent college graduates at all. Yeah. And I think that that's a big thing. And we also found that a good chunk of employers say that they would rather use or hire ChatGPT or AI over, over employing a grad. And so that, that was kind of our, our other headline, of course, because.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Are you terrified? Because I'm a little terrified right now.

[Dan Schabell]

I think it's a lack of workplace preparation. And I also think the part that's also terrifying would be the automation of entry level jobs, especially in certain sectors. And I think that that's kind of a call to arms. And, and right now employers are starting to prioritize more soft skills to things that can't easily be automated.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Right.

[Dan Schabell]

But I would say in the future, honestly, I think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I, I never have thought of that. And there has been a separate study that came out several months ago that says, you know, employers value the soft skills like we found as well. Almost 100% said communication, willing to learn, collaboration, creativity, critical thinking. But I think as AI continues to improve and be elevated and get smarter, you might rather brainstorm with AI than your colleague, potentially. So I think the things that we thought could not happen are slowly going to happen to a point where we're not even going to be thinking about it, and thus I think that it's going to get harder and harder as a recent college graduate to get a job. Yet at the same time, as you know, it's like $1.8 trillion of student loan debt, right? The cost of going to school goes up 2 to 6% a year. So if the cost keeps going up and this, the loans keep going up, yet it keeps getting harder to get a job because there are fewer jobs. And those, the skills you need are changing and colleges can't keep up. We have a huge, huge crisis on our hands. So that's like the bigger picture of what's going on.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So let's say you're in college right now or you are a recent grad. We don't want this news to completely deflate you. What would be your advice to someone right now? I mean, you need to pay off those loans. You need to get out there and make an impact and make money. How do you do that? Obviously got to learn AI, but what else is there to it?

[Dan Schabell]

It is hard to give general advice because everyone's in a unique financial like, aid situation and what people can afford and, and also like you could be or have a college senior as a son or daughter versus, you know, someone who's a freshman. And if you're a freshman, you probably still get freshman or sophomore, you probably still get to choose your major. So this should affect your major choice. But, you know, if you're a senior, let's say, and you're already in this major, I mean, if you can do a minor in, you know, a topic that's more relevant now, that could be benefic or unfortunately, like outside of work, nights and weekends, you should learn some of these new skills. And, you know, a lot of these skills can be learned through either freelancing or through online courses or finding people who have those skills and trading something with those individuals, like, you have certain skills, they need certain skills and vice versa, and you, you form a kind of a partnership or a mentorship opportunity.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So is AI going to be the ultimate disruptor to college as we know it? Do you think that university presidents and board of trustees, are they going to listen to any of this and adjust the way that they're approaching academia?

[Dan Schabell]

Well, in the early days of when AI was being rolled out and students were using it to write papers and all of that, I feel like a lot of colleges and schools push back and they said you're not allowed to use AI. But now I think that things are drastically changing. And our survey actually focused on that aspect as well, with a lot of college graduates know that using AI would help them become more efficient, more innovative, improve their decision making and advance their career so that the students value it and they think that AI is just going to disrupt almost every profession in the next one to two years. We found 86% said that. So I think that, you know, between that and then employers demanding these type of skills with like almost 100% saying that it's important to have these new hires with a foundation in technology skills, namely AI and data analytics. I just think if you connect all the dots, that the demand for these AI skills, knowing how to partner with AI to accomplish tasks is only going to grow. And I mean, AI and you know, future technologies could be so disruptive that it changes how people are learning in the classroom, how much time they spend in the classroom. There's so many aspects to it that that could evolve over time. But colleges for sure know that if they want their students employed, and that's their big metric, you know, if you want to get rank high on the US News list, which is the most important thing to these colleges.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Right.

[Dan Schabell]

Unfortunately, that is by far the most important. They'll do anything to get higher in that list is you need to equip them with the skills so they get hired so your placement rates are higher or stay the same. Because if those start dropping, then the ROI of those schools does. And therefore it's going to be harder to get higher on those lists. Especially that new Wall Street Journal list that came out, what last year, where it ranked schools based on ROI basically for their degrees. And you know, it's going to be harder. Those schools are going to have a tough time because it's gonna be harder to recruit and because there's so many schools and with the expense of going to those schools constantly increasing, the schools that are not performing at the highest level, they're not Ivy League or they're not yielding enough, you know, a high enough placement rates, they're going to just go under.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Mm.

[Dan Schabell]

Because no one's gonna take out, you know, I, I was calculating, I don't know if, I don't know if you've ever done this before, but like, obviously I just had a kid, so I'm, you know, 5, 29 plans, everything. So I'm looking at what is the cost of college for four year private school in 18 years and $730,000, forget it. So you have to save, you have to save $18,000 a year for those 18 year. About almost those 18 years to be able to do it.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Hmm.

[Dan Schabell]

And that's like the, I guess you could say that's the most expensive situation you get yourself into because obviously they can go to public and it won't be as high as that, but a.k.a.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Missed, a.k.a. the dumbest. Who is gonna pay that? I mean, unless you're just bankrolling that and you've got 800,000 more dollars a day coming in, that is, it's, it's a crime that, that is even an asking price. But those who are paying it should know better. Right. Like that's just, you're, you're entering a fraudulent, corrupt deal at that.

[Dan Schabell]

Correct. But the, there's always this but and there's been so many articles that are like, you know, is a degree worth it? And the reality is, as of now, if you don't have a college degree, you'll still earn less in your lifetime. I mean, that's still.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I also think college is a gateway to meeting people who can help you advance in your career. And also not just in your career, like in your personal development life. It's a, it's, it's not just where you go to learn about chemistry or, you know, finance. It's where you learn how to be a leader potentially. Or, you know, you learn about people skills or the social skills that you didn't necessarily build in high school. You learn about yourself, you get to maybe travel abroad. So there are these other benefits to going to college. You did this survey in partnership with Hull International Business School. Tell me about Hull and why they were interested in these, these questions there. They seem to be like an untraditional model for college and grad school.

[Dan Schabell]

Yeah, they were especially interested in doing this survey, obviously to get their name out there alongside other big colleges that are more well known. I think that their offering is really embedded into the survey focus about, you know, these soft skills, business skills, being able to hit the ground running the second you start your job. That's a huge area of focus. So obviously with the headline and that you named earlier on about college graduates learning so much in just six months in their job, then their entire four year education. But what if you could start your job and get up to speed in a month instead of six months? Right. And so the average person, if you think about a fully productive employee, it takes about six months, takes a long time. And so there's definitely an incentive for an employer to want someone to get up to speed quicker. Now, of course, there's variables like networking within the company as being part of that training. But I'm, I'm talking about the foundational skills that are important for being able to adapt to a workplace situation and thrive earlier rather than later. And because like the no one's got patience anymore. You could start a job and if you're not performing within those six months, you could lose your job. And I think that'll happen more in the future because again, it's like, is this person performing? No. Okay, we'll let go. I mean, you see it happening with the big tech companies like Meta. You know, it's back to the Jack Welch error, right? Neutron Jack, you know, cut in the bottom percentage of employees. And in Meta's case, I believe it was 5%. But you know, I think Jack Welch was 20%, truthfully. So I just think that there's going to be more pressure on people to get up to speed. And so having those type of business skills, life skills, is going to be really important, not just at work, but outside of work, which I think is really critical because, you know, I think actually think from a soft skill perspective. And of course communication is king. But I think being able to think critically in today's society is really important.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I also think if you can fix an H vac system, if you can clean a pool, if you can solve for plumbing issues, you can see where I'm going. These blue collar jobs are where private equity is investing. Knowing that AI is going to take a lot of the kind of hard and soft skill jobs, frankly. You're saying, you know, that at the end of the day there's not really an AI that can respond to, you know, the fact that your home is falling apart and you need someone to get in there and restructure. Right.

[Dan Schabell]

So, so there's not enough handyman, right? You have no idea. It's been insane to try and get a handyman for the house. Like so, like, seriously, like, will a handyman respond to my calls? Like, unbelievable.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I have been texting and calling this electrician. I don't know why, I just keep going after this one electrician, but he's the best. And I don't want, you know, anyone subpar dealing with my electrics in my house. But in any case, I want to learn from you. Where are some of these silver linings or these other opportunity hubs for people that are looking to frankly stay employed? And you know, AI, it's changing things very quickly. It's not even like in the next 10 years. Like they just want to make sure they have a job in the next Five years, especially those who are young, because I think you're more vulnerable. Right. As a young person without work experience that you, to your point, AI is a catch 22. Yeah. They can very easily, you know, replicate or do what they, you would be hired to do.

[Dan Schabell]

I want to get a job. You already have to get a job. Like, I knew that when I was, I was in college. I'm like, okay, well, the first internship's gonna be the hardest to get. And then, you know, my dad helped me get my first, like one or two internships, and then I leveraged those to get several more. But I also think even, you know, even your first job, it's like, where's your work experience? Well, if you haven't already had work experience, then it's gonna be hard to get that job. But the whole point of, you know, your college degree is to help you get that job, but you're not getting the work experience unless you're able to get those internships or do freelancing. So I think that this, that's massive catch 22 is what makes it very, very difficult to compete in the job market as well. But that's always been the case. So I think it's just a supply and demand situation right now where, you know, LinkedIn's chief economist came out and I don't know if I fully believe this, but they said for every one job, there's two people competing for it. It feels like a lot more from a ratio perspective, but I mean, it's just, but in a sense, it's just not enough jobs for people to take. But on the other hand, as you're alluding to the. It's Gen Z has been named the tool belt generation. I'm sure you saw headlines regarding that because they're looking at corporate, corporate America and saying, well, I don't know if I want the same career as my parents. And they're not stable because they saw the hundreds of thousands of, you know, tech workers who are getting six figures and cushy jobs, not doing that much work actually. And a lot of them had admitted that publicly. Then they lost their jobs. So they're like, oh, companies aren't going to take care of me. But, you know, there's, there's a low supply, high demand for all these, you know, plumbers, electricians, maybe I do that. So, yeah, I think that, I think that makes sense. But at the same time, you know, you could go back in time and be like, oh, I wish I was a plumber. Because obviously, like, you'd never have to worry about, you know, parents would be.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So disappointed in me.

[Dan Schabell]

At the same time I, I talked to our plumber about that and he's like, yeah, this is, there's, there's also not just, you know, a low demand of people doing this. Even though it's lucrative and stable, it's hard work. Like it is. Injured on the job, like it ain't. It's not. It sounds easy to say to recommend, you know, a recent, you know, a young person, hey, be a plumber, but it's a whole different thing for them to go to trade school and then from them to actually doing it. It's, it's a pretty, pretty big leap.

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Dan Schabell]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Dan Schabell]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Details. Yeah, and we don't appreciate it, as I alluded to, like, you know, culturally in growing up as an Iranian.

[Dan Schabell]

But I, I'm amazed by it now. Like I, I watch them do it. I'm like, wow. Because it's so the way I, I always say it is. Like it's so far removed from what I do on a daily basis sitting in front of this computer that I. It's like amazing, you know, I could never even think of doing what they do.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Well, let's talk a little bit more about the other, as you call them, you know, top tier issues. We're obviously talking right now about AI and its impact on the workforce, on its impact on college education, universities. What else do you know? You talked a little bit in the beginning about workplace hybrid. You're working from home. What's the future there telling you?

[Dan Schabell]

Well, so AI, obviously, tier A, I call it a tier A topic, which means it has the most demand, the most news coverage, the most innovation, the most, you know, people who are interested in, you know, reading content about it, et cetera. Like. But I think tier B, Tier B is about work environment, hybrid, work, return to office. That continues to be a huge trend. Why? Because during COVID a fourth of desk workers who had never worked remote in their whole lives, work remote for the first time. And a lot of them enjoyed it, right? Because they got freedom and flexibility. They could better manage their responsibilities. Childcare, all these different things. And cut on commuting costs. Commuting costs is an average of like 55 a day. When you take into account gas and food, those are the two primary costs. And now a lot of companies, because the pendulum has swung. So at a high level, from an economy, economic standpoint, the pendulum swung. Employers have leverage, employees don't like. It was very different, you know, one to two years ago where employees had the leverage. And so employers are like, hey, we have this office space. We're spending a lot of money on it. You know, cities are like, you know, we need to incur it. We will give you tax subsidies if you can get people back into these cities so that people spend money at these restaurants and the barber shops, et cetera. Companies want more control. You know, it's very Big Brother. They want to make sure people are clocking in. That's why there's a whole trend of like coffee badging, people going to the office, getting a coffee and then badging out. Right, right, right. Just to say that they are. So I think this trend, every single time a big company, like more recently, Goldman Sachs says, we want people back in the office. Obviously financial services, you're much more likely to get return to office mandates because it's from a cultural standpoint and because some of that work is better, you know, it's, it's more easily done in terms of what the work they there offers. I think every single time that happens it's just going to be back in the news and I think that people are very emotional about it because even these federal workers that have to go back to the office, a lot of the times it's a layoff strategy. You know, it's back in the day from a historical standpoint. Yahoo and Best Buy were two of the big companies early on. We're talking like way over a decade ago when I was first, you know, focused on this. They had previously had a, like fully remote, you know, for many positions and then they said no, you know, we have a new CEO and the CEO wants us back in the office. But it was also a layoff strategy, you know, in disguise. And so a lot of people were very upset about that because again it's like you get this freedom, flexibility. Now your company's taking it away from you. It's very personal. So that, that to me is a massive topic obviously DE and I is.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah, what's going on here?

[Dan Schabell]

Huge topic.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I mean I just interviewed the chief human resource officer at PwC. This was for a separ podcast I'm producing with iHeart. Stay tuned everybody. It's called Leading by Example. And she obviously cares deeply about D, E and I and is very actively implementing the strategies and the thought leadership around this in her practice at work. And I said there's a PR crisis happening with DE and I right now. And you know, part of what she thinks is the problem is that companies are very short term solution oriented and maybe some of the strategies that they implemented post 2020 didn't work or didn't have like the results that they wanted. But they a may have implemented the wrong strategies and B, maybe weren't patient enough to like this isn't, you know, this isn't transactional work. You know, this is work that takes in some cases years to sort of make an impact and, and see the benefits. And so I would love to hear from you, like what do you think are some of the misunderstandings or like the narrative around D and I that why is it so negative? And, and where are we? What are we missing?

[Dan Schabell]

Yeah, so this, this has been a very big topic obviously from a gender, ethnicity, sex, age, race perspective. I mean those are, those are the big ones, especially race and gender I would say. I mean there was an article that came out today, we're, we're doing a massive study on DE and I just so you know, and so it's, it's a, such a politicized topic. That it's like you just have to be really careful around it. But yeah, CBS News article. What has DE and I, Diversity, equity, inclusion done for us workers and employers? Like, it is a crazy headline. Why? Because D and I, it's not like it, you know, people just started talking about this a week ago. Like, this has been around since before I even got into this, I think. Right. Like, or it was called something different. Like it's always been a thing. And I think, you know, obviously the new, the new administration has had a huge impact on it because there's now legal ramifications and penalties around DE and I. And I think what you're seeing is people, you're seeing some companies like Costco saying We're keeping our DE and I programs. Costco as you. As, you know, like, I think it's like a 95% renewal on memberships. Like, great company. Love that. I was just there this morning. Great company. And that's what they want to do. Whereas you're seeing other companies like, you know, Walmart go back on it among other companies. Again, these are just. Walmart's the biggest employer. So that made the biggest news you could imagine. Right? They have like the biggest workforce. So, yeah, I think, I think this topic is, is, is definitely a tough one because I think it's maybe misunderstood, but potentially on purpose misunderstood. Right. And the, the whole idea behind DE&I is that, you know, if there's two people who are equally qualified, you can't just choose the white dude over the female Latino because they have the same skin color as you. Right. Like, I think that that's, that's really what we're talking about here is, is you need to be an equal opportunity employer, but now you get penalized for doing that, which is going to have massive ramifications across the workforce. So, yeah, it's, in my opinion, it's, it's disappointing and it's. I, it's been weaponized for sure. And I think that, I think it sends the message that, you know, the, some of the companies that always believed in it will, will try to continue with it within legal bounds. And then other ones that were just doing it to do it for maybe publicity or whatnot will drop it, which is what you've seen. But I think the big thing with De and I that people forget is, I don't know, 15 years ago, like a long time ago, I always. Time goes by so fast. I'm just gonna, let's just say a long time ago, McKinsey came out with that famous de and I study that said, you know, if you support DE&I and you know, from a gender and a race perspective, it will increase corporate profits, you know, be good for productivity, it'll be good for morale, it's good across the board. And so that was a seminal study that I'm still talking about to, to this day that showed that hey, this is good for creativity, collaboration, productivity, profits. Like this is good for companies. Right. And so I think, you know, between that and then now, companies kind of, you know, because of the political climate, taking a stance back, it's like, what is that going to do to the future innovations of companies and morale and, and systemic racism and all these different things. So it's, it's a very, very tough topic. But that's my lens on it. Yeah, well, and I don't, I don't really share it too publicly, like, but for you, like that's my, that's my overarching view of, of the topic, the different sides of the topic and, and how could impact the workforce moving forward.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah, yeah. So final two questions. There still have to be people who get hired by corporate in the future. AI is not going to replace every single job.

[Dan Schabell]

Right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So what are the jobs that are safe?

[Dan Schabell]

Well, I think what's crazy, I always use this example and it's really scary. But if you think about it, let's just say you're the CEO of. I don't. Not even Microsoft. McDonald's the dream. Not even the CEO micro. The shareholders of McDonald's. The dream really from the capitalism perspective is no workers. No workers means no liability. Potentially. Potentially. It depends how well the machines operate. Obviously it means no labor unions. It means no one demanding higher pay. It means, it means that, you know, there's a more of a fixed cost on labor, you know, more predictable fixed costs. I mean, obviously machine upgrades. But you're not thinking about minimum wage, you're not thinking about any of that. You're not thinking about employee benefits, injuries on the job. You don't have to worry about any of that. And thus your profits are going to soar. Right. But you know, what's the, you know, they tested a McDonald's like a all robot McDonald's in Texas and it didn't go so well. And so it's actually led to more human hiring, which I think is pretty fascinating. But in the future that might change. And maybe, maybe these robots at, you know, fast food restaurants get so good that the customer is like, I'd rather have that. I mean, you see it at airports. You see, there was an airport in Seattle I went to years ago where, you know, you could get your order done by a human, or there's a kiosk next to it. And I was just watching as that, you know, percentage of people who would go to the human versus the kiosk. And it was about 50, 50 split. You know, maybe that's just to kind of start changing behavior so more people use the kiosk. Super interesting stuff. But I think that that is what's. That's the bigger danger. And then those service jobs are the summer jobs of kids.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah.

[Dan Schabell]

People who are, you know, teenagers. Those are jobs that are being taken from them, which therefore, you know, impact their future jobs potentially or their, their ability to make money, to pay off school or whatever it might be. So I think that, that that's kind of the negative thing. And then the positive thing is, yeah, I see a lot of opportunity. I just got off a call with an executive yesterday. Yeah, data analytics is huge. So the more you understand how to assimilate data and use it for strategic decision making, the better, whether it's for hr, finance, whatever it might be. So, so yeah, that's how I think about it. It's part. What. Part of what attracted me to doing research studies instead of, you know, other types of projects is they show me the data. The data is the king, I think, moving forward. And so if the more you're able to attach yourself to data that's relevant for your. For your company, the better. And yeah, I mean, there's a ton of data analytics courses that can be very useful for doing that. Yeah, of course, anything with AI, But I would say, I would say data analytics from HR perspective, people analytics would be. Would definitely be a good path to go in because it affects everything. Every job, every company.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah.

[Dan Schabell]

And companies are just in the infancy of being able to leverage data. And I see that. That becoming something that gets further adopted and, and elevated in the future. Also. I. You've seen, I don't know if you've seen marketing roles over the years. I mean, it's changed. You know, these new marketing roles are called like, it's like revenue marketing. So.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Right.

[Dan Schabell]

So more so if you think about positions in the workplace, more of them are touching money, more of them are touching revenue. And I think that if, regardless of what you choose, like, figure out how to touch revenue somehow, whether you're in sales, whether you're in marketing, whatever you're trying to do, I think that's, that's gonna be really important, because that further helps you justify your job. And so it's kind of always been like that. But I now. Now with the prolification of data and the pressure to grow, as you've seen the stock market, like, the pressure to grow is insane. Like, even companies that, you know, this past. This week, you're seeing all the earnings come out, even the companies that, you know, hit their numbers, like, if they're not growing, like, tenfold for the next year, their stock goes down. So the pressure to grow is so extreme. And so for you as a professional, it's like, okay, what can I do to help this company grow their record?

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Just pursue the arts. My kids are just 10 and 7, but my son wants to be maybe a director of. He loves movies. And my daughter wants to perform. I don't know. She loves to sing, she loves to dance. I know this will all change, but I'm not dissuading them, because although I'm saving for them in five to nine plans, I'm like. I'm telling my son. I'm like, you know, there's, like, you can go to film school. And I think those applications are. Are still sound. And so as a dad now and a parent, you are talking a little bit about, you know, the $900,000 you're gonna need for college in 18 years. But what are your thoughts about school? And when the time comes, what are the conversations you think you'll be having with your. With your kid about, you know, their higher ed and getting an roi?

[Dan Schabell]

That's a killer question, Farnish, because I do think about it, and I'm worried.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I know you do. I know. What do you think about these things?

[Dan Schabell]

I'm definitely worried because the arts. I just think. I think the arts are always going to get even harder and harder and harder and more for Nepo babies. I mean, yeah, like, you saw what was like, Vanny Fair or one of those big, you know, media magazines, People magazine. They came out and they're like, you're the biggest Nepo baby. Like that article. I mean, it's always kind of been true, but now it's like, right in your face to a point where if I see, you know, for instance, oh, God, what's her name? The one who opened for Taylor Swift, who's now massive.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Oh, yeah, Abrams.

[Dan Schabell]

Abrams, right. That's J.J. abrams daughter. So everyone's like, oh, she's amazing. She's raising. I'm like, okay. Like, you know, J.B. j. Abrams is like, you know, Taylor, I'll let you be in the next Star wars film. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I just, I don't know, like talented and everything, you know, and Taylor and Taylor Swift, like, obviously she's talented and, you know, maybe she could have made it on her own, but certainly help that they. She came from a wealthy family. It's just the truth right now. Obviously, I'm not. I don't want to, you know, downgrade her, but, you know, there's a lot of talented people, but because they don't come from privilege or their parents aren't already famous, like afar new. Like, it's very hard. It's very hard. And so it's. Yeah. I don't know. Is it. Is it, hey, pursue this. But also, like, have a backup plan. Like, so I'm still thinking. I don't have the direct answer because I am worried about the future of entertainment and the arts. I just think that it's going to constantly get harder. I just don't know that path as well as I know the more traditional corporate path.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

But I know humans. We know human beings. And whenever there's something new and powerful like AI that gets introduced to our culture, there is this, like, all in mentality. And then I do wonder if we're going to get to a point in our culture not anytime soon, but where there will be an aversion to it and the pendulum is going to swing the other way and we're going to want to go back to appreciating and supporting the humans who can write and who can teach things that maybe AI can teach, but we want it from a human because we've been so. We've gone so far on the deep end with AI that there's going to be like a cultural backlash to it. I do wonder if that's going to be part of the history.

[Dan Schabell]

Just adding to that point. You saw all the backlash when they had AI as part of a movie or part of a movie trailer. I forgot which one it was. And it happened last year and people were so upset by it. So I don't think AI in movies and. And streaming shows has like, even close to being perfected or anything like that. So, I mean, I don't think that's anytime soon. But again, like, I just think like a nephil. If Netflix didn't have to have actors if you know that. If they didn't. If they didn't, yeah, there's a reason they still have actors and actresses, but if they didn't, they wouldn't use them. You know what I mean, so that it ends up being like a capitalism thing. It's like, well, these actors, there's still opportunities as long as.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Well, that's why we had the strike for so long. Right, Exactly.

[Dan Schabell]

That was a very important strike.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

It was very, very important. Yeah. And I'm so glad that they got, I think at least some or many of their, of their concessions.

[Dan Schabell]

I've interviewed a lot of people who are celebrities or, you know, executives in the Hollywood area or in Hollywood and some of the advice that they said is, hey, like, obviously not everyone's going to make it as an actor, actress, musician, all this stuff. But think about how you can play a role. Like if you really like the industry, think of how you can play a role in the industry outside of being an actor, actress or whatever, musician, you know, and so there, there's definitely other opportunities because it's not like, you know, someone shoots a movie and it's a director, writer, you know, and actors and actresses. Like there's so many other positions to make that happen.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah. Well, Dan, I could talk to you for another hour or week and I'm just so glad we were able to catch up. It's always so informative and insightful to have you on the show. Thank you for all of your forecasts and your strategies for us. We're at a critical time and I think it's important to be asking hard questions and in some cases rethinking your approach to work and even school. Hang in there with, with your 9 month old. I know now soon that he'll be crawl, he'll be walking. So.

[Dan Schabell]

Oh God. Let's not get, let's not jump the gun here. We just started walking back a few days ago step by step.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Dan Shabell, thank you so much.

[Dan Schabell]

Thanks for, I appreciate it.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Thanks so much to Dan for joining us. I have a link to his study in our show notes and I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnouche. I hope your day is so money.

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