← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1787: The Best Ways to Overcome Emotional Money Blocks with Jessica Moorhouse
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A
To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee. So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile? Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee. No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile? Wouldn't. Because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child.
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B
Whoa, easy there.
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A
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B
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A
If you have any kind of trauma, and whether that's a personal trauma or something that's unrelated to money that happened to you, or if you have a financial trauma so something that is specific to finance that is going to affect how you make your financial decisions moving forward.
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B
Welcome back to Sew Money, everybody. I'm your host, Farnoosh Tarabi. And in today's show, we're diving deep into the real barriers that prevent many of us from achieving financial freedom. And spoiler alert, it's not just about the money. My guest is Jessica Morehouse, financial counselor, speaker, and now the author of the highly anticipated new book, Everything but the Hidden Barriers between youn and Financial Freedom. In her work, Jessica uncovers how trauma, shame, and our earliest experiences with money shape the way we earn, save and spend today. Whether it's that nagging sense of guilt when you earn more than your parents or the fear of spending. Because of a scarcity mindset, these hidden barriers can quietly hold us back for years. And Jessica helps us understand where these money blocks come from, how they manifest in our adult lives, and most importantly, how to start healing them. Jessica Morehouse, welcome to Sew Money.
- [02:55]
A
Thanks for having me.
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B
Yeah, I'm excited to pick your brain. I love meeting fellow financial nerds. You're the author of the new book Everything But Money, the hidden barriers between you and financial freedom. You've been a long time accredited financial counselor. You're the host of the popular More Money, More Money, not so Money, not to be confused with so Money More Money podcast. I want to try start by understanding you as a kid, as I'm sure you like to go down memory lane with a lot of your guests. And it's part of what our work involves. You know, like, getting close with your money means getting close with your child, with your inner child in some ways. How did your early experiences shape your financial mindset and maybe even impact your relationship with money as you aged?
- [03:50]
A
It certainly wasn't. Yeah. So what's interesting about really understanding your relationship with money, and I had to do some digging myself, is really figuring out where did it all start? What's the origin story? And then can we make some connections between what happened to us in childhood to then how we connect with money as adults? And so in the book, I kind of start people off with, okay, let's find out where things started for you and for me. And that kind of starts with the first exercise which is really figuring out what is your first money memory? What is the first memory you have where there was some sort of connection with money or money played a role. And for me, it started as young as 4 years old. And interviewing so many other people for the book, a lot of them, their connection with money started that young or, you know, five or six. And most of us are, you know, probably wouldn't expect that because, you know, like, I was earning money or, you know, how could that happen? You know, it starts really young and it really sets the tone for the relationship you'll have with money moving forward unless you are really conscious about it. So for me, I've always had a deep connection between money and the feeling of shame. And I never really understood why that was until I went back and did an inventory of my childhood. And my first money memory had to do with me stealing a piece of candy from the grocery store and getting caught and being reprimanded and then feeling a big source of shame. Not just for doing something wrong like stealing and stealing is bad, but also for making my family look like, oh, my gosh, we steal things. So I kind of put shame on my family as well. And that was a memory that was so interesting when I was writing. It just kind of came to the forefront. But I hadn't thought about that memory for decades, but it was still very much in there in that vault. And that started to really open my eyes to, oh, okay. Maybe that's why shame has always played a part in my money story, now that I'm approaching 40, and it's still very much there. And so I did that, those exercises with a number of people and encourage readers to do the same to see if there's a connection between their relationship and money and their fear, their anxiety, their feelings of guilt, their envy, their despair, whatever feelings that they may have, because it may be rooted in that first money memory.
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B
So the shame as adults that we might have around money, how does that manifest? Is it like, I'm shameful of my debt, I'm shameful of even having more than my friends or my parents. I know a lot of my friends who have gone on to do well and even out earn and out net worth. Their parents, which wasn't that always the hope?
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A
Yeah, like, that's a good thing.
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B
Yeah. But they, they're like, I would never tell my father how much I make. It would. It would shame him, you know, So I kind of want to understand how this shame, you know.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Personify that for us.
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A
Yeah. I mean, it can pop up and manifest itself in so many different ways based off of. And how did those feelings kind of start and when did they start in childhood. But then also, too, what were some of the beliefs and values and lessons that you either you learned directly or indirectly, usually indirectly, or adopted or are rebelling against. There's a lot of things that we kind of took on from our parents as children that we still carry as adults that we may not realize because it was completely unconscious. And, you know, I have, I think, also a lot of feelings about money that aren't mine, that are my parents based off of their childhoods that again, they can say, just like a turn of phrase that I'll take and, you know, keep with me for. For years and years and years. And that's, I think, a really important thing is if you feel like, yeah, I can't ever tell my parents how much I earn because I don't want to make them feel bad, where did that come from? Did they have A similar experience. And you heard it when they didn't think that you were in, you know, earshot and you're just repeating the cycle. Or are you. You know, there's definitely something going on internally. If you feel these feelings that are for sure, irrational. It is an irrational feeling for you to feel guilty for earning a good wage and taking care of yourself because you don't want to make someone else feel.
- [08:14]
B
Because we associate our self worth with our net worth. I mean, if you got that message, which I think is, like, so paramount in our culture.
- [08:20]
A
Yeah. I mean, capitalism will do that to you. Right. Everyone, I think, deep down has this idea that we, as we as an individual are only as valuable as what we bring to the table. But mostly financially, even though really we should be looking at it from what do I bring to the table? To my family, my community? I mean, there's so many people that are so valuable to me, I have no idea what their net worth is, because it actually doesn't matter. But a lot of us internalize this idea. And I absolutely used to be one of those people that how much I earn, how much I have in the bank, what milestones I have and haven't reached by certain ages defines me as a person. But that's just one little, very insignificant part of who you are and how valuable you actually are. And so that's one thing that we need to really look into and get rid of, because that is a huge hidden barrier that I think really holds people back from just enjoying their life and enjoying the place that they're in.
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B
Yeah. Appreciating it. By the way. I also stole candy when I was five.
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A
You didn't.
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B
I mean, it was an accident. I had a hole in my coat, in my coat pocket, and I went to go. My mom was like, it was our thing. We would go to Duffy's in Worcester, which is a discount like. Like our. Our version of like Walmart back in the day. And it was a small mom and pop. And I would go. She's like, all right, you can go get a piece of candy. I would go to the candy aisle. I picked out some gum, I put it in my pocket, and then I went to give it to my mom to pay, and I couldn't find it, so I assumed I dropped it. So I grabbed another piece of gum, and on the way back to the car, leaving the store, I felt the original piece of gum in my coat that had sort of like. Because of the hole. It was just sort of like in a weird place. And I felt my heart sank and I was like, what do I do? My five year old brain was like, what's worse? Admitting that, you know, I didn't think I would be believed. I thought I was. I assumed I was going to be found guilty of stealing and that no one would believe that it was a mistake. So I just kept it. And then my mom noticed I was chewing a lot of gum that week. Like she was like, how do you have all this gum? And I confess. And it was a whole conversation and a whole to do. And I think, you know, I never forgot that story.
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A
Right, that sticks with you.
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B
Your book cites these hidden barriers between us and financial freedom. I just want you to give us like the top five hidden barriers so we can just call them and name them.
- [10:51]
A
Yeah, I think the reason I really wanted to focus on the kind of internal barriers is because a lot of personal finance advice and content and books really focus on the dollars and cents of it. If have more money, then that's going to solve your problems. And I believe that to an extent, money can solve your money problems. But as a financial counselor working with individuals, most of the time, I would look at their budget and take a look at the dollars and cents and see there's no problem here. We, you know, we can easily craft a budget to help you organize things and free up cash flow and you're going to be good. And then they would come back and they're still in the same situation. They haven't made any progress. Why is that? And so slowly I would discover that there is things at play. They're a people pleaser and they don't know to get out of that mode or they just feel guilty like there's the other side of it too. I have some clients who are, I wouldn't say hoarders, but they are very unhealthily restrictive with their finances and always anxious that they don't have enough when they have more than enough. If anything, they have too much cash and they need to, you know, invest it, but they're too afraid to let that go. And so everyone has their own money stories, their own money quirks, their own things going on that could be preventing them from doing something better or growing or reaching that next level. And so in terms of what those kind of barriers could be, now we have a couple chapters that really are dedicated to if you have any kind of trauma and whether that's a personal traumas or something that's unrelated to money that happened to you, or if you have a financial trauma so something that is specific to finance that is going to affect how you make your financial decisions moving forward. And whenever that trauma and that could, you know, for a financial trauma, an example could be if you've ever been fired or laid off or experienced kind of long term unemployment, that's going to stay with you. And you're always going to have this kind of scarcity of what if it happens again? And I say that because I've definitely experienced that a couple of times and I always kind of have one foot out the door. What's my plan B and C? Just in case something happens. And if you have that mindset, then you may not be doing other things like how can I excel in this career, how can I grow, how can I stay here? Because you're always worried that you're not going to be able to have the opportunity to stay. And for a personal trauma, that could be anything. It could be you were bullied in school, it could be abuse, it could be something, you know, super catastrophic, or it could be something really little. But it still stays with you. And it's basically an unhealed emotional wound that you haven't addressed. And if that stays with you forever, which can happen to a lot of people if they don't seek therapy and seek some professional help. Help. Whenever that trauma is triggered, you become super emotionally dysregulated. And you may use money as a crutch or a mechanism to get back into that place of calmness and happiness. And you need that dopamine hit. And so I saw a lot of clients, whenever they were triggered for whatever reason, a trigger could be as small as someone saying a word or seeing a face that, that looks like someone else's face, they would go shopping, they would buy stuff just to make them feel good. Or I saw with some of my other clients, they would do the reverse where they would really restrict their spending because that was their only way of controlling, having something in control. And so they would just. Their grocery budget would be super unhealthy. I'm like, that is not enough. You are not eating healthy because you're just eating ramen noodles. And there's money that you can eat vegetables and healthy foods. Why are you doing this? That is a mechanism and for them to control so they can in their own way kind of soothe themselves from that trauma.
- [14:37]
B
Everything but money. What are the low hanging fruit things we can do with our money though, while we're working on this much bigger, more layered, more complex thing called our trauma? How can we keep our Finances at bay. Because this is a long journey, and in the meantime, you gotta pay your bills, you gotta get out of debt, you want to make as much money as possible, and you don't want all this baggage here. Even though you called it out, you've recognized it and you're working on it to continue lurking its head. So how do we sort of reconcile as like, sort of build the plane while we're flying it, you know, trying to get to our destination of being more in control and not so irrational with our finances?
- [15:19]
A
Yeah, there's kind of a, you know, some. A guide that I share in the book where, you know, first we need to figure out what are some free or cheap ways that you can learn how to. To regulate yourself. So we aren't always letting our emotions dictate our financial decisions because we don't want to do that anymore because we know what happens. It's never good. And so I provide some tools on some just like, easy grounding techniques. And they can be as simple as chewing gum. Actually, that's a grounding technique to bring you back to a place of safety and calm, or chewing ice or sipping a drink. Or it could be there's a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 technique where it's all about really recognizing your five senses. And, you know, it takes you a while to kind of get through each sense. And then once you are at the end, you're like, oh, I feel a lot better. I can think rationally. So there's definitely some tools I provide that can help you in the immediate moment. But ultimately I kind of, you know, a big advocate for mental health help. And so that is what's going to really move the dial. But not everyone can afford that. I mean, it's very expensive and most people have to pay out of pocket. It's not covered by insurance or their employer. And so what do we do in order to get to that place where we can afford that extra help? We need to take care of the dollars and cents. And so I go through my kind of strategy for developing what I call a spending plan, because a lot of people are even triggered by the word budget, which I totally get. Especially if you've tried and failed a million budgets before and you think you're the problem, you're not the problem. It's maybe just you didn't find the strategy that worked for you. And so I break it down and, okay, let's take a look at money coming in, coming out. We need to put some money in savings to protect yourself, get that emergency fund going and really look at spending. And that will reveal a lot of the problem areas. Not just, oh, I shouldn't be spending my money on that, but what frame of mind were you in when you spent that money? That maybe doesn't feel good in retrospect. And so we can be more mindful of, let's not go there anymore. Let's not go to this location. Let's not, you know, whatever happened, let's try to do better next month and really just create a system that will help you get to a financial place so you can breathe again.
- [17:36]
B
Chewing gum. I'm sensing a theme on today's show.
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A
I know it's not interesting.
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B
I think it just kind of put a nice bow on things for us, you know, maybe that was such a predictor of things to come. And the counting back from five, I've heard before. I think Mel Robbins has a book on a whole book on that, you know, five, three, two, one. Getting back in touch with your senses, just taking a beat, you know, whether you're like about to buy something on Instagram or you're in the store or you wanna, I don't know, say something disrespectful to someone based on, like in a financial fight or something, and you.
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A
Just go, okay, I'm gonna step away.
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B
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A
Yeah, that's a really important point, is if you want to get advice from someone maybe, and you've gotten advice from people and it's just not really landing, you may want to find someone who does have a connection to you, maybe similar background or, you know, I want to work with a woman because they understand how it is to be a woman and some of the obstacles we have to, you know, circumnavigate. And so finding someone that you can trust and can really connect with, I'd say also just on the side, just because there's so much free information out there, really be careful who you are listening to. Some people are entertainers and some people are actual experts that have credentials or just have that actual experience and know what they're talking about. So just be careful who you're listening to because anyone can start a TikTok and tell you whatever they want about money because there's kind of no regulation with that. So just be mindful of that. And honestly, when it comes down to how to identify good and bad advice, honestly, one of the easiest ways is, is it boring? If it's boring, it's probably good advice. If it's so like, oh, I've heard that before. Maybe people are saying this over and over again because it works like the pay yourself first method and da, da, da, like all those things we've heard over and over again, There's a reason that we keep on saying it. It's because a lot of us have tried it and it works. Whereas some of the. Maybe more outrageous or the advice that gets your emotions kind of rattled because it's so radical, you got to be careful with that kind of stuff because again, maybe they're just saying that to get a reaction, but it may not actually be good advice. That's going to serve you well. So. So just be mindful. But, yeah, if it's simple and boring, that's probably a good indication. It may be good advice.
- [24:20]
B
Yeah. That said, you know, the social media apps like TikTok, they're breathing fresh air, I think, into a lot of subjects, especially personal finance. And yes, a lot of it is junk, but a lot of it is actually pretty wonderful. Like, I loved the trend, I think it was last year about loud budgeting, which. Which to your point is it's the basic boring advice of, like, just own your financial decisions. They just. They just put, like, nicer labels on things and they put it to music. So I appreciate that. I think whatever we can do to sort of just wake people up to the boring stuff is.
- [24:56]
A
Is.
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B
Is important.
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A
Yeah. If we need a new word for it. Cool. Loud budgeting has been a thing for a while.
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B
Spending plan, right?
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A
Yeah. Like, do whatever we want. But, yeah, there's some really amazing people. And, you know, you've been in the field for a long time, like myself. And it's been really exciting for me to see the evolution of financial advice and content, because when I was starting in my twenties, there really wasn't. There weren't many options, you know, and so it's really exciting to see that it's a lot more accessible than it used to be.
- [25:23]
B
So looking ahead, what are the trends or the shifts that you think are going to change the way people manage their money or even, you know, relate to their money? I think if we were doing this podcast, although podcasts didn't exist, like, 25 years ago, if someone had a crystal ball, they would have said, like, like, technology's gonna change everything. The Internet's gonna change everything. We're gonna have this, like, way to automate our finances. You'll probably never go to a bank. I know it's really hard to predict these things, but I think with all that we're seeing already with artificial intelligence and even cryptocurrency, there is a lot to sort of already guess. You know, what. Where things are headed and how to really show up for that in the best way possible. What do you think?
- [26:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, one thing I talk about in the book as well is that we have a human behavior kind of bias that makes us very kind of worried or, you know, we, we don't want to necessarily do anything new. You know, we, we have a really hard time shifting from some of like. But this is how I've always done it. Like one thing, one example is when I ask anyone, where do you bank and why? Usually the answer is, I don't know. I've always banked there. I got my childhood inertia. Yeah, it's just like, I don't know, it's just easy. And there's so many great, you know, other banks or credit unions that are maybe more in line with your values or have lower fees or just, you know, are better spaces for you to have your money. But it's hard for us to make that shift. And I feel like, especially over the past 10 years, there's just been such so much innovation in the financial services industry, sometimes it's kind of hard to even keep up with what's new. And that's exciting, but it's also really worrying. So some people are totally like, all right, let's go. I'm going to make everything online. Never going to go to a brick and mortar bank again, and I'm going to do this. And some people are really resistant to change. So I would say it's good to have a balance, it's good to be cautious of what kind of fintech is new to see. Is this something that I should add to my financial life or is this something I'm going to wait and see how it goes? Because a lot of these fintechs that I saw 10 years ago don't exist anymore. So, you know, let's, let's see what's going on. But we also want to make sure that we don't get left behind. There's still people I talk to that don't do online banking. And so we need to figure out what's a good balance for me. But I do feel with, especially with AI, it'll be interesting to see and I'm excited for the positive parts of AI, that maybe this will make traditional financial advice more accessible to people. Because right now I'm telling everybody, you know, I'm based out of Canada and you know, you can see someone who will sell you products. And there's people that are fee only or advice only, financial planners, they charge you a fee. Less biased, won't sell you anything, but they're pretty expensive. It would be amazing to have more access to people who maybe can't afford a Couple grand to work with a financial planner, but, but can access some sort of AI tool that can still take a look at their finances, give them some suggestions on how to improve things and you know, really kind of again move the needle for them to, to see some progress in their life. So I, I'm optimistic because I've seen a lot of great innovation, especially with investing. I mean, when I started I, you know, there was no way to really invest online. It was very difficult. Now it's almost too easy, which again there's good and bad. But I think overall it's great that there's more access for people.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah, these robo advisors, there was a lot of skepticism in the beginning, which was merited. I think we should always be very curious and ask a lot of questions. And of course as a journalist working with other financial journalists in the field, your default is to go, really? You're going to be able to invest my money for a fraction of the price and do it automatically and it's all going to work out.
- [29:08]
A
I know.
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B
And you know what, it kind of is. And even financial planners, humans are using the automation for the investment investing portion of their clients work. I think for me, my big tip is as technology is changing rapidly, the best way to show up is to take it slow.
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A
Yes.
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B
So nothing good happens. And I'm speaking very personally here when you're trying to do something, especially with your money. Money quickly. Yes, sending money quickly. I have sent money to the wrong accounts and like, you know, I, I have rolled over an IRA real fast. Not to check, to say, oh wait, is this actually reinvested?
- [29:52]
A
Yes.
- [29:53]
B
Oh, it's just sitting in cash again. As the technology is improving, it's also becoming a situation where there's more fraud. And we're going to do a whole episode on, on protecting our money later this month with AI and social media really confusing us, you know. And I think for me the big takeaway is just slow down when someone's asking you for money or someone's really urging you to buy or move your money from one bank to the other. Like take a minute. Nothing has to be done that quickly ever.
- [30:24]
A
And again, that's kind of like counter to, I think a lot of messaging out there. It's all about quick and instant. Whereas when it comes with money, you gotta be boring, simple and slow. That's protective, you know, and nobody cares.
- [30:38]
B
More about your money than you. That's my favorite saying. I've been saying it for over a decade. What's your favorite financial philosophy or saying.
- [30:45]
A
I love that philosophy. I use that all the time, too. Personal finance is personal. I like that one too, especially. Even though it's like, it's a bit like overdone. People say it all the time. But I love it because a lot of people, especially online, the voices and the forums are like, no, this is the way to do it. No, this is the way to do it. I'm like, two things can be true at the same time, you know, and something that's right for you. And again, coming from a background of like, I work with individual people. If something isn't working for someone, it doesn't mean that this strategy is just not good. It just means this isn't working for them. Because everyone, again, everyone comes from somewhere. Some people are dealing with different things than you. They may have adhd. Guess what? You need a bit of a different blueprint if you're dealing with that in order to be successful with your money. And so really just remember that, you know, if you try something and it doesn't work, try something else. It doesn't mean that you're bad with money or you can't stick to a budget or you're not good at investing. It just. You just haven't found. Found your thing yet.
- [31:41]
B
Jessica Morehouse, thank you so much. Congratulations on your new book, Everything But Money, the hidden barriers between you and financial freedom. Thank you.
- [31:51]
A
Thanks so much for having me.
- [31:55]
B
Thanks so much, Jessica, for joining us. Her book again is called Everything But Money. I'll put the link in our show notes. I'll see you back here on Friday for a fresh episode of Ask Farnooch. I hope your day is so money. Ladies, let me tell you about how I discovered skims. It's kind of a funny story. I was traveling abroad recently and I realized I'd forgotten all my undergarments. Yeah, cue the mini panic attack in a foreign department store. But then I spotted something familiar. The skims brand. I'd heard all the hype, and so I thought, you know, let's give it a try. And let me tell you, I've never looked back. The Fits Everybody collection is like nothing I've ever worn. The fabric is soft, it molds to your body perfectly, and between you and me, it feels like you're wearing nothing at all. Skims was such a lifesaver on that trip, and now it's a staple in my wardrobe. My favorite piece right now is the Fits Everybody triangle bralette. I've always struggled to find bralettes that actually provide lift and support without feeling restrictive. But this one game changer. The Fits Everybody collection is available in sizes XXs to 4x. So there's something for everyone. You can shop now@skims.com or in Skims stores and after you place your order, let them know I sent you. Select podcast in the survey and choose this show so money in the drop down menu. Go treat yourself. You deserve it. And if you're looking for the perfect gift for your Valentine or for yourself, Skims just launched their best Valentine's shop ever available in sizes for women, men and women kids.
- [33:34]
A
To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee. So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile? Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee. No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile? Wouldn't because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child. Whoa, easy there. Yeah. Applies to online activations. Requires port in and autopay. Customers activating in stores may be charged non refundable activation fees.