1801: Tackling the Student Loan Crisis. Uncovering Problems and Creating a Path for Change

Summary

Podcast Summary: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode: 1801: Tackling the Student Loan Crisis: Uncovering Problems and Creating a Path for Change
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Jillian Berman, Financial Journalist and Author of Sunk Cost: Who's to Blame for the Nation's Broken Student Loan System and How to Fix It

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Introduction

In episode 1801 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi, host Farnoosh Torabi delves into one of the most pressing financial issues of our time: the student loan crisis. Joining her is Jillian Berman, a seasoned financial journalist and the author of Sunk Cost, a comprehensive examination of the student loan system's failures and the path forward for meaningful reform.

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Understanding the Student Loan Crisis

The Genesis and Evolution of Student Loans

Jillian Berman begins by outlining the original intentions behind the U.S. student loan system. Initially designed as a "well-intentioned policy" to remove financial barriers to higher education, the system aimed to benefit both individuals and society by investing in human capital (05:09). Berman explains, "The original design of our student loan system was to remove the financial barrier to attending college...it's an investment in someone's education and skills." However, over time, the system has become more punitive than supportive, trapping borrowers in a cycle of debt with little control over repayment (07:07).

Systemic Flaws and the Role of Third-Party Actors

Berman highlights how third-party actors, including lenders and servicers, have manipulated the system for their benefit. She points out that, "These actors have had opportunities to bend the system to their will in ways that don't always benefit borrowers or taxpayers." This manipulation has been fueled by concerns over liquidity, allowing these entities to exert undue influence on the system's design and functionality (07:07).

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Key Factors Exacerbating the Crisis

Bankruptcy Protections and Loan Recoverability

A significant turning point in the student loan crisis was the decision to make student loans largely non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. Berman notes, "Calls for this started in the 1970s...to make student debt non-dischargeable or very hard to discharge in bankruptcy" (08:55). This policy change has made it nearly impossible for borrowers to escape unmanageable debt, with loans following individuals indefinitely unless specific legal actions are taken.

Disproportionate Impact on Minorities and Women

Berman discusses the socioeconomic disparities exacerbated by the student loan system. She explains, "Black student loan borrowers...face a broader racial wealth gap... They have less money to rely on to pay for college, leading to more loans" (18:55). Additionally, women, who comprise a growing percentage of college attendees, are disproportionately affected due to ongoing wage gaps and labor market discrimination, making loan repayment more challenging (18:55).

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Consequences of Declining State Funding for Public Colleges

Berman traces the decline in state funding for public colleges to the Great Recession and policy shifts initiated by leaders like Ronald Reagan. She explains that reduced funding has forced colleges to increase tuition, making higher education less accessible and more reliant on loans (20:34). This shift coincided with a diversification of the student body, leading to higher financial risks for a broader swath of students who may not have the financial backing their predecessors enjoyed.

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The Future of Student Loans and Higher Education

Evolving Perceptions of College Value

In light of advancements in technology and changing labor market demands, Berman contemplates the future relevance of traditional four-year degrees. She posits that even if college becomes less popular or undergoes structural changes, student loans are unlikely to disappear entirely. Alternative education paths, such as community colleges and vocational training programs, continue to rely on loan financing (11:44).

Potential Reforms and Policy Recommendations

Berman advocates for the creation of a "free public option" for higher education to alleviate the dependency on student loans. She emphasizes that making education genuinely affordable would empower students to pursue their academic and career goals without the looming threat of unmanageable debt (25:03). This approach could significantly reduce the financial burden on borrowers and reshape the landscape of higher education financing.

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Practical Advice for Borrowers and Prospective Students

For Current Borrowers: Managing Debt

Berman advises current borrowers to actively engage with their loan servicers to explore manageable repayment options. She recommends utilizing free resources, such as the Institute for Student Loan Advice, to navigate repayment challenges effectively (21:56). Additionally, documenting all communications with servicers is crucial for maintaining clarity and accountability.

For Prospective Students and Parents: Making Informed Decisions

Prospective students and their families are encouraged to conduct thorough research before committing to higher education. Berman stresses the importance of understanding the total cost of attendance and realistically assessing one's ability to manage and repay student loans. Open and honest conversations about the financial implications of pursuing higher education are essential to avoid future debt pitfalls (21:56).

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Hope for the Future: Rethinking Higher Education and Employment

Shifting Educational Priorities

Berman and Torabi discuss the need to realign higher education with the evolving job market, especially with the rise of AI and automation. Berman observes, "We're seeing Gen Z steering more towards professions that are less likely to be automated," indicating a trend towards careers that require human-centric skills and creativity (27:32).

Emphasis on Career Preparedness

Colleges are gradually placing more emphasis on career centers and practical skill development to enhance student outcomes. However, Berman cautions that institutions must remain accountable for providing a tangible return on investment for their students, ensuring that education translates into viable employment opportunities (28:38).

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Conclusion

Episode 1801 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi provides a comprehensive exploration of the student loan crisis, uncovering its historical roots, systemic flaws, and disproportionate impacts on marginalized groups. Through Jillian Berman's insightful analysis and practical advice, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding student debt and the urgent need for structural reforms. As the landscape of higher education and employment continues to evolve, the conversation around student loans remains critical in shaping a more equitable and sustainable financial future for all.

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Notable Quotes

• Jillian Berman (05:09): "The original design of our student loan system was to remove the financial barrier to attending college... it's an investment in someone's education and skills."

• Jillian Berman (07:07): "These actors have had opportunities to bend the system to their will in ways that don't always benefit borrowers or taxpayers."

• Jillian Berman (08:55): "Calls for this started in the 1970s...to make student debt non-dischargeable or very hard to discharge in bankruptcy."

• Jillian Berman (18:55): "Black student loan borrowers...face a broader racial wealth gap... They have less money to rely on to pay for college, leading to more loans."

• Jillian Berman (25:03): "Creating a situation where people can truly look to an affordable public option I think would make a huge difference."

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Transcript

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Mmm.

[Jillian Berman]

I love ravioli. Otanta fame. Since when do you speak Italian? Since we partnered with SAP Concur. Their integrated travel and expense platform and breakthrough solutions with AI gave me time back to dive into our financial future. We expand into Europe in 2027, so I'm getting ready. Well, you can predict the future. I can predict you'll like that message. What message? Oh, hey, we all got bonuses. You can save for college now. I don't have kids.

[Guest]

Hmm.

[Jillian Berman]

You don't say SAP Concur helps your business move forward faster.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Learn [e-mail] support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade, you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC member Sipic Etrade is a business of Morgan St.

[Jillian Berman]

So Money Episode 1801 Tackling the student loan crisis. Uncovering problems and creating a path for change. You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Kharabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.

[Guest]

This is a debt over which people really don't have as much control as other people might think. There's like a narrative around personal responsibility, like you should know what you're getting into, things like that. And a lot of cases, people do know what they're getting into. They've. They've been promised access to certain benefits and programs and it is not working out.

[Jillian Berman]

Welcome back to SEW Money, everybody. Today we're diving into, I think, one of the most pressing financial issues of our time, student loans. If you or someone you love has ever felt the weight of student loan debt, wondered why the system feels so broken, or questioned what the solutions might look like, especially now, this episode is for you. Joining us is Jill Berman. She's a veteran financial journalist who has spent more than a decade reporting on the student loan crisis. She's the author of the new book Sunk Cost. Who's to Blame for the Nation's broken Student Loan System and how to Fix it. The book unpacks the history, the politics and the policies that have turned student loan debt into a trillion dollar burden. In our conversation, we're going to explore how we got here, who's profiting from this mess, and what needs to change to make higher ed more affordable and student loans less of a financial trap. We'll also get into the recent developments, legal challenges to loan forgiveness changes, repayment plans, and what new threats borrowers should have on their radar. Jillian Berman, welcome to SO Money.

[Guest]

Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

[Jillian Berman]

Let's dive right into the why of your book. You've been covering this space for over a decade. Clearly there were some issues that you kept running up against that signaled to you that our awareness of student loans and the history of student loans, we're under educated in this and it's important that we understand the history. So tell me about the moment you realize that this needs to be not just an article, but a book.

[Guest]

Yeah, I mean, there are so many moments, I would say, but I talk with student loan borrowers all the time and they constantly tell me the challenges that they face just simply figuring out like basic information about their student loans. So like how much they owe each month, if you're going to qualify for certain, certain programs, how to apply for those things. And I think a lot of people who don't have a lot of familiarity with the student loan system don't totally understand that. They think of it as, okay, this is like a generally a monthly manageable bill, like your mortgage or credit card bill or something like that. And they don't realize how trapped people can feel, how uncertain it is. Right. This is a huge consumer finance product, but it's controlled by politicians, courts, companies. For me it was like I really wanted to educate people on how little control, frankly, borrowers have over this huge monthly bill.

[Jillian Berman]

And student loans have been around for a while. The crisis was never this huge and complex. It really does beg the question, when did this all start to transpire? And get to the point that we're at today. It's a good time to talk about the original intentions behind our country's student loan program. What was the initial hope dream of giving a prospective student basically a financial lifeboat?

[Guest]

Yeah, so the original design of our student loan system was a well intentioned policy like so many of our policies are. And basically the idea was to just remove the financial barrier to attending college and the philosophical underpinning of that was that college would provide some kind of individual benefit to the student. And that's why you ask them to take on a loan. And it's not just a grant, but also that having more students go to college provide an economic and societal benefit to the country at large. And that's why the government needs to subsidize it a little bit. Another thing is that when you think about the market for student loans, which fit into this like broader economic concept called human capital, it's a human capital investment, so it's an investment in someone's education and skills. It's hard to get private banks or companies like that to make an investment in something like that because there's no asset to seize if it doesn't work out. It's really hard to tell whether or not someone's going to be successful. If they're 18 years old, they don't have a traditional credit history. That was another reason why the government got involved. Right. It's like they needed to fill the role of what normally would be a private market.

[Jillian Berman]

But then banks did get involved.

[Guest]

They did, and so they got involved. And this is a running theme throughout my book. But over the course of the history of the student loan system, the government has relied on third party actors. So whether those are lenders, nonprofit or state backed middlemen, that kind of helped facilitate student loans early on. And these actors have had opportunities to bend the system to their will in ways that don't always benefit borrowers or taxpayers. And part of the reason they've been able to do that is because in different periods of time there, there was a concern that there wouldn't be enough liquidity. Right. These actors were important to the government to making sure the system functioned and so they could exert leverage to get what they wanted in some cases.

[Jillian Berman]

So who do you see as being the real culprit or what is the culprit?

[Guest]

Yeah, to me, sort of one of the biggest culprits is the design of the system. I think originally, like I said, it's a well intentioned policy. Originally we thought, okay, we do this balance between, or there's like a tension between the government, the. Sorry, the individual benefit and the societal benefit. But as we've realized that it hasn't worked out, we've just been so hesitant to scrap it and start over. And that's where the sunk cost comes from. And so we have all of these constituencies who maybe benefit in some way from the status quo. You have like now it's, it's more student Loan servicers, less lenders and banks. You have schools in some ways, although I think schools would also argue it's not totally working for them either. And then you just have policymakers who this is what they know. A total revamp of the system would take Congress, which we don't. It's hard to imagine Congress doing anything huge. I think the big culprit of the crisis is not being able to reimagine higher education finance and reimagine how we do this.

[Jillian Berman]

From my understanding, years ago it became very difficult to dismiss student loans in personal bankruptcy. Like 99.9%. You cannot. Of the time, you cannot. And that has been identified as a moment in student loan history where it became like the Wild west again and, or that it got to the point where banks then just didn't have any risk like these. This debt is always going to be recovered even if the borrower can't pay it back. Like it will just follow them to their grave. What impact do you think that moment had on what we see student loans today as is this huge burden?

[Guest]

Yeah, that's a really good point. And one thread also that runs throughout my book is that in many ways student loans, they're again, they're this financial product created with this lofty goal. But the sort of particulars of it are in many ways can be more punitive than other types of consumer debt. And so the bankruptcy thing is a good, probably first example of that historically. So the sort of. The calls for this started in the 1970s to make student debt non dischargeable or very hard to discharge in bankruptcy. And it was fueled by a lot of anecdotal evidence in the media that doctors or other people who we think make a lot of money were just trying to skirt their obligations. And so we had to make it more difficult for them to discharge the debt in bankruptcy. And as part of my reporting for this book, one thing I found was an article that, that was influential in this process. One of the major sources for the article was in an organization working with the federal government on guaranteeing student loans. They had a, an executive from that organization criticizing student loan borrowers and, and saying they're trying to get out of this debt when that person has sort of something to gain if it's harder to discharge these in bankruptcy. But I would also argue. So that's a first moment. And then we see policymakers take steps, other steps to make student debt really hard to get rid of. So one of them is for federal student loans, there's no statute of Limitations, you can get sued over it way after you have an issue. Another thing is you can the government has the power to garnish Social Security checks and tax refunds wages for a student to collect on a student loan, which is with a credit card debt or other types of consumer debt, you'd have to get a court order usually for something like that. Those are sort of other moments where we've seen the consequences just get really harsh on student loan borrowers.

[Jillian Berman]

In your conversations with your sources, did you talk about the future of student loans? I've had some conversations here on the podcast with experts about whether college is even worth it as they currently are structured and with the curriculum that they're currently offering. Like it's just not aligning with the speed at which the world is moving. You know, a lot of AI is taking on at least introductory level work. First year graduates are finding that they're competing not with their fellow graduates, but with technology and AI. And so it begs the question a, if college isn't worth it. And I'm speaking very generally and obviously, but what does that mean for taking on debt to get a degree that may or may not secure you a job? And this is not a now problem. This has been a problem for years and years where people were question have been questioning the validity of a college degree. Depending on the degree of course and where you get it from. But it like without the need for college, where does that leave the need for student loans?

[Guest]

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, part of the situation is that even if we, even if college becomes less popular or, or what we imagine college in our mind like 4 year Bachelor's degree on a residential campus, that whole thing, even if that becomes less popular, I don't think we'll necessarily see student loans go away. That's, that's another misconception that I think a lot of people have about student debt, that it's only for people who go to college or graduate school. Actually people who attend community college have student debt. People who do training programs have student debt. There's a lot of controversy right now around debt that people took on to attend coding boot camps. You have these situation where even if it's not traditional college people are looking for opportunities to finance education in some way. So I think it's unlikely that student loans will disappear. We even see lawmakers in Congress have been batting this around for a while, but expanding Pell Grants, which is the money that the government gives to low income students who attend college to include Very short term training programs. And so that's an indication that even if we move towards more towards workforce development type stuff as bizarre education policy, the student loans I think probably are still going to follow.

[Jillian Berman]

What about the fate of student loan forgiveness programs? That's been a huge debate. And even when it has been offered in the form of, let's say, income driven repayment, it's fallen short in providing relief to borrowers. Just curious, what, if any predictions as far as what would happen to our loans in the future if we were in financial trouble, in a financial bind? Is it just that we're not going to get any relief or that that it's in everyone's best interest to service these borrowers? If they can't get out of debt, they can't be as economically viable citizens in this country, which is not good for capitalism.

[Guest]

Yeah, that's maybe one way you might hope people would think about it. It's hard to make any predictions. And I think one theme of the book and also of my coverage is that people, this is a debt over which people really don't have as much control as other people might think. There's like a narrative around personal responsibility, like you should, what you're getting into, things like that. And a lot of cases people do know what they're getting into. They've, they've been promised access to certain benefits and programs and it is not working out how it was promised in terms of what's going to happen with those things. It's so hard to tell. Some of the Biden administration's kind of like big swings at this problem are tied up in litigation. The Trump administration has taken steps or has signaled that they want to take steps already to curtail some of the cancellation that's already on the books that also will probably get litigated. It's really hard to say what the future of those kinds of programs look like. I will say we're in a period right now where borrowers are experiencing the consequences of falling behind on their student debt for the first time in five years that there's like pandemic pause and then a slow rollout or roll off of that. And if we see a lot of people defaulting, if we see a lot of people really struggling, that could move the needle in some way. But it's hard to know.

[Jillian Berman]

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[Guest]

Roger, wait.

[Jillian Berman]

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[Guest]

Yes, I think part of it, when you talk about black student loan borrowers in particular, there's a part of it that's just about like broader racial inequality in wealth building and the racial wealth gap. Right. So if there's so many policies that have created this racial wealth gap, if you're starting from a gap in wealth, you have less money to rely on to pay for college, you're taking on more loans. And then when you talk on the other side, you graduate, there's labor market discrimination. And so then you're getting both ends. So then, yeah, like the job you get maybe doesn't pay. And this is the case, I would say, both with borrowers of color and for women. Is that you, the degree is helpful in help in overcoming the labor market discrimination. It's just that even still, you're making less than, say, your white male peer. And so it's harder to pay it off. So it's, you're making a rational decision to take it on. And because it, it can help you overcome this labor market discrimination, it's just like still not enough. But then like beyond the broader economic forces, one thing that, that I've written about and that others have, have talked about is that over the past 60 or so years, since we started the student loan system, states in particular have pulled back from funding their public Colleges. And that's occurred over a period that coincides with college becoming less male and less white. And it could be a coincidence. But even if, even if it's a coincidence, if it's not intentional, the result is that people going to college now, which are, it's more likely to be just like a broader swath of society than it once was, face higher risks, financial risks, than people who went like. When we think about like the baby boomer who could work their way through.

[Jillian Berman]

School, I just want to understand that. So which came first? Colleges getting less funding from states or colleges experiencing a drop in male white enrollment?

[Guest]

It's going parallel. I think we see a really big one of the sort of, the really big drop offs in state funding is around the Great Recession. One of the chapters in my book really digs into, for example, what happened at the University of California, where it was like a slow University of California, or not just University of California, public colleges, like a beacon of free public college. For a very long time, there was like this slow march to charging tuition there. And what started that march was the governor at the time, Ronald Reagan. And in his rhetoric surrounding we're going to pull back funding, we want you guys to charge tuition, it was very much tied to protests on college campuses and some of those for racial justice, some of them related to Vietnam. But it was very much tied to look at what these schools and students are doing. They shouldn't be able to just do this for free. They should have to pay something. Those things have been like working in tandem.

[Jillian Berman]

What's your advice for college goers and even parents who will be funding a little bit of this or just concerned for their children who have college dreams, but also don't want to become another case study.

[Guest]

Yeah, I think there's a few pieces of advice. One is just the obvious. Do your research to the extent that you can take notes. Make sure you, you have a sense as much as possible of what you're getting into. I would say another thing is that if you're a borrower, a current borrower, and you're struggling, it's important to still try to call your servicer and reach out and see if you can get help or advice on, on something that can make the loans more manageable. There's also like some nice free organizations, for example, the Institute for Student Loan Advice, that you know that, that can give guidance in how to navigate these things. When you make those calls again to your student loan servicer, take notes, make sure that you are documenting everything that they're telling you, and I think the. If you're a parent or a student trying to think about, okay, where am I going to go to college? How much do I want to spend on it? Just being realistic and actually like having the conversation about, what is this going to cost? What does it look like to have a student loan? And being really realistic of what does it look like to carry this around with me potentially for several years, potentially with the swings back and forth like we're talking about, what does it look like if I get in financial trouble when just to the best of your ability, try to think through that before you get into it.

[Jillian Berman]

Yeah. One of the best pieces of advice I got that was also echoed by Harlan Cohen. He's. I'm sure you've come across his work, he's a huge advocate for college students and families is that there is data that says it matters very little the name brand of the college that you go to. And by a factor of that, there's a cost. Right. So his point being that what it really matters is when you go to college, the kids with the best outcomes, financial and otherwise, are the ones who actually take advantage of their time in college. They have good relationships with the teachers, even just one professor. Right. Having a good relationship with one professor, getting an internship, being active. And you can do that virtually on any campus. And so let that be hopeful. A piece of hope for those who are just so strict, Right. About I have to go to this particular college because that's where I'll get the payoff and it'll be worth getting into debt for. Because. And look, of course, I'm not saying those who go to Harvard are. They're behind, but that there's hope for everybody.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Basically.

[Jillian Berman]

Keep an open mind. If there's one policy that could not just be beneficial to borrowers and prospective borrowers today, but in the future be the sort of policy that would set up future students for more success. When it comes to borrowing, what would it be? What is the light we need to turn on? And again, I'm not talking about forgiveness today, but what is it about the structure, the infrastructure of the student loan system? Like one change I know, like it's not gonna be a silver bullet, but that you think could go a very long way. And so in five years, we're having a much different conversation.

[Guest]

Yeah. I will not be like, unique in saying this, but having some kind of free public option, I think to me, obviously, people will talk a lot about the really expensive fancy schools that, that are shiny objects that push people into debt. And for me, it's not a problem in and of itself that those kinds of things exist. The issue is that for many Americans there just really isn't an affordable option. And that's the case even though we've. Our economy is set up in a way that college is average, your best chance at a decent financial life. And so people, many people have to go into debt. They maybe have to go into unaffordable debt. They don't have the choices that we imagine. They're not choosing between I go to the, the less prestigious school and it's when I can manage it, or I go to the fancy school and I take on a ton of debt. They're. They're just saying all my options require some kind of debt. Creating a situation where people can truly look to an affordable public option I think would make a huge difference.

[Jillian Berman]

Yeah, I just see it being so different in five years. We have to go where the market is and the market is telling us that turning out millions and millions of graduates who studied English every year, which is a great thing to study. And I wish we were in a world where if you took on debt to study that that would have a direct payoff for you not in 20 years, but like within the first five years of gradu. That's just not realistic anymore. I like what you say about free university options and AI is making it so the jobs that AI cannot replace or cannot perform. I'm thinking, I'm looking around my house like I have a someone coming over tomorrow to help me with electric for the electricity, plumbing, H vac, handcraft things, the arts. This is the sort of stuff that maybe right now or 10 years ago, if I'm really just strict about ROI and my college degree, my parents gave me that soliloquies, you can study theater. What are you talking about? But now I'm like, maybe my kids should study theater because that's where there's going to actually be a need and something that won't be as compromised as some of these other jobs. So yeah, this issue, this question around what is the college degree for? What is the student loan for? Is going to be very different. I think we're already having these conversations. It's evolving.

[Guest]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We already see like Gen Z steering more towards some of those professions you mentioned. And then two, when I think about there's. This is something that I haven't reported on extensively but that I see challenges hiring people with computer science degrees with five or six years ago it was like if you were applying to college, that's what people told you to do. To have the safe. That was like the safe bet. Yeah, I think you're right. It's just going to be like a reevaluation of I just what this all means.

[Jillian Berman]

I don't understand why it has to be four years.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Jillian Berman]

Of the world. Right. You go into college, first two years you're studying not your degree.

[Guest]

Right.

[Jillian Berman]

You're like taking all these gen EDS and then you're taking on your computer science classes. But by then like.

[Guest]

Right.

[Jillian Berman]

The college kept up with the market because just between this year and last year, look at how far we've come with AI. So it's, this is really the other question. It's a whole other episode is like how prepared are colleges to provide us with the ROI and what's their accountability?

[Guest]

Yeah, that's a huge question. I will say they're. Colleges are like slow moving.

[Jillian Berman]

Right, Right.

[Guest]

But they are. I just think they are trying to emphasize more their ability to, to prepare students for careers. They emphasize their career centers, all that kind of stuff. And, and they are also are. And again, who knows like at what point this will be obsolete, but doing robust hiring and AI and things like that. Yeah. It's hard to say how well they'll keep up and who will be asking them what happens if they don't.

[Jillian Berman]

So. Well, there's your second book.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Jillian Berman]

Jillian Berman, thanks so much. I really appreciate that you took the time to write this book. It's so important to give people the context and also did so much important reporting talking to borrowers and policymakers. Really appreciate you everybody. The book is called Sunk Cost. Who's to Blame for the Nation's Broken Student Loan System and How to Fix It? Thanks friend.

[Guest]

Thanks so much.

[Jillian Berman]

Thanks to Gillian Berman for joining us. Sunk Cost who's to Blame for the Nation's Broken Student Loan System and How to Fix It? It's coming out April 8, but you can pre order it now. Thanks for tuning in everyone. I'll see you back here on Wednesday. And I hope your day is so money.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

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[Jillian Berman]

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