← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1806: Ask Farnoosh: Recession Fears; What to Do With My Savings and Debt?
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Farnoosh Tarabi
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You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons? Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to Sew Money. Hey friends, welcome back to Sew Money. It's AskFarnoosh, our Friday edition of the podcast, and I'm your host, Farnoosh Tarabi. I hope you're doing well, whether you're listening to us on your commute, during your walk, folding laundry, hiding from your kids, I see you. Today's show is going to be a good one. We got some juicy practical questions to dive into, like what happens if that recession everyone keeps talking about right now hits like hits hard? Should we prioritize paying down debt right now or socking more money into our high Yield Savings accounts? What's the smarter move when things feel uncertain? We'll also talk about whether it ever makes sense to cash out a Roth ira, the ins and outs of a doctor's mortgage program, and how to move money between your brokerage accounts without sparking a tax event. We're covering a lot of bases today, but before we get into your questions, let's take a beat to talk about what's been swirling in the headlines in the financial news cycle more and more this week. The word recession is back in the headlines, and it's not subtle. According to the latest CNBC CFO Council survey for the first quarter of 2025, almost every single CFO, 95% of chief financial officers say that political policy is directly impacting their ability to make business decisions. Now here's what's interesting. While many believe that President Trump is technically delivering on his campaign promises, they're also saying that the way it's happening is just far more chaotic and disruptive than expected. It's hard to plan essentially, when everything feels like it's happening on a whim. And then they make an announcement, they rescinde the announcement. So what's the result? Pessimism, uncertainty and a pullback in corporate spending and hiring. And when that happens in the boardroom, eventually it trickles down to the home front. So if you've been wondering whether now is the time to pay down your debt more aggressively or pad your emergency fund just in case, these are the exact types of questions I've been getting from listeners. Not just this week, but I would say in the last couple weeks it's been increasing. But stay tuned, we've got some clear guidance to share with you. I also want to talk about a very interesting partnership in the news recently between Klarna and DoorDash. Can we talk about this for a second? Because this one deserves a moment. Klarna, which if you don't know, it's the Buy Now Pay later platform, it has hooked up with DoorDash, which we all know it's the food delivery app to let users finance their food deliveries. Now I get it. You can use your credit card to buy chicken wings using DoorDash, and that's like what we're talking about here with Klarna, except that as we know with Buy Now, Pay later programs, while they're marketed as four interest free installments to give yourself a little bit of wiggle room as you pay off an item. Do we really need more financing options for fast food? I get that sometimes you have to put your groceries for your family of four on a credit card and maybe, unfortunately, pay that in installments. I get where the world is at. I know that inflation has been hitting our budgets hard, but I think that this is not about creating better solutions for consumers, healthier solutions for consumers. I think this is a technology company realizing an opportunity to seize on consumers who are already using Buy Now Pay later for so many things. So why not meal delivery as well? They're making consumers increasingly dependent on these types of payment plans. I don't think this is what you would be doing if you really cared about consumers and their financial lives. You wouldn't be caught offering these types of tools. And let me just quote Adam Rust at the Consumer Federation of America. He was quoted on CNBC.com, he said making four payments to cover three tacos on Tuesday sounds complicated because it is. Klarna and doordash are saying that they're meeting customers, quote unquote, where they're at. But let's be honest, this is less about convenience and more about encouraging short term thinking. If you can't pay for your food today, the answer isn't a micro loan, right? So just be careful out there. Use credit strategically. And I understand food is a necessity. But is buying on DoorDash a necessity? Those meals carry fees and fees like a $20 pizza suddenly is $35 between the delivery fee, the service fee. Maybe if you're gonna get the pizza, go and pick it up or make it at home. And if you still have to put that on a loan, fine. But don't give Klarna and DoorDash more of your money when you're struggling. If you missed any of the episodes earlier this week on Sew Money, here's what we covered. If you haven't listened, please go back and take a listen. They're worth it. On Monday, we sat down with Kathleen Griffith on creating a life and a business that you love, how to build like a Woman, which is the title of her book. As some of you may know, I recently launched a new podcast called Leading Example in partnership with iHeartMedia and Ruby Studios. This conversation with Kathleen Griffith aired on Leading by Example recently, and I dropped it in our feed as well because I know that many of you listening to so Money also care about what's going on in the workplace. Leading by Example is a place to go. Learn more about that. I talked to some powerful leaders, people who have led many different kinds of teams across different industries who are at the forefront of change in corporate America and also in the world of entrepreneurship. We talk about things like De and I and hybrid work, artificial intelligence and its impact on the workplace. And with Kathleen, we specifically focus on how women today can create the lives and careers that they truly want, especially if they're in an unfulfilling corporate career. They want more. They want to make bold decisions. They want to make pivots. Kathleen speaks from experience. That episode dropped on Monday on so Money, and then on Wednesday we talked about how to create wealth through ownership with Cody Sanchez. Cody is the founder and CEO of Contrarian Thinking, which is a digital education platform and media company and she has a book out called Main street how to Make Extraordinary Wealth Buying Ordinary Businesses. There are over 40 million Americans hitting retirement age who currently own nearly two thirds of small businesses with employees and they're poised to sell those businesses. So Cody walks us through how to think about maybe acquiring these quote unquote boring businesses. Whether it's a laundromat or a plumbing company. How to create a once in a generation opportunity for yourself. This is something that she has done time and time again in her own portfolio. But we also talk about some of the psychological hurdles to entrepreneurship, how she thinks about power relationships and the future of work in an AI driven world. I think that every interview we'll touch on AI, right? It just, it's inevitable. We always go there. We definitely did with Cody. That was episode 1805. Before we dive into your questions, let's take a minute to share a recent Apple podcast review. I try to read one every single week. When we have a new one, this person gets a free 15 minute phone call with me. This week we're saying thank you to BGR2 who calls. So money. So on point. Here's the review. Been listening to Farnouche's podcast for many years and each episode she gives her all. I've learned much from listening to her perspectives on different different topics. I enjoy the wide variety of guests she interviews. I'm loving how she's created more balance into her daily life too. Farnoosh promotes living well and prospering in many ways, not only on money topics. Keep shining bright. Thank you so much. BGR too. You can email me Farnooshitsomoneypodcast.com or DM me on Instagram at farnoushtarabi. Let me know you left this kind review. I'll send you a link to select a time for us to connect. And yeah, I am trying to build in more balance into my life and it's paying off. I went to see my general practice doctor yesterday for just my annual visit. By the way, did you know that starting at 45 now you start doing your annual colonoscopies. That was not music to my ears when I went to see my doctor yesterday and I immediately texted my husband because he's a little bit older than I am and I was like we are behind my man. We need to go get our colonoscopies done. So that's just a public announcement for everybody out there. They were usually recommending starting at age 50 prior to now it's 45. So okay, great. Gonna do that, but my doctor is like, so how's it been going? And I'm like, you know what? 2024 was a very tough year for me, physically, mentally, emotionally. I'm gonna blame a confluence of things from hormones to my own self imposed stress. Overdoing it at the gym, overdoing it at work, caring too much about other people's feelings, that there was nothing I could, but I obsessed over it anyway. And I will say that in the moment when I was experiencing that tsunami, I knew my intellectual brain was like, you are doing too much. There is no question as to why you feel the way you do. You need to step on the brakes. And so beginning towards the second half of last year, going into this year, I started to do that slowly but surely. I started to get very strict about my schedule and what I would do during the day, when I would work, when I would not work, started to get more sleep. First it was just going to bed a little bit earlier, then a lot more. And I can't say that I do this every night. I don't always go to bed at 10pm or 9:30, but I try to. I try not to drink alcohol during the weeknights. I reserve that for the weekends and not always every weekend. I'm not giving that up cold turkey. And I check in with myself periodically, more than I used to, ever. Just like, how am I feeling? How can I make my life easier right now? How can I ask for help? Where can I say no in my life? I protect myself. And when I was talking to my doctor this week, she's like, are you feeling sad? They ask that now when you go to the doctor, especially when you're in midlife, they're like, how you feeling? Are you moody? Are you sad? Are you depressed? And my answer is no. And I could say that so confidently, I almost wanted to burst into happy tears when I told her that. Because I am feeling the results of my intentional work. And again, not every day is great. But what I will also say is that if you want to be me and you want to get to where I am, again, not saying like it's going to be forever this way, but it's a daily commitment that you have to make to this, but also tell other people what you're committed to. I told my husband at the beginning of the year, my word for the year is relax or calm. And I need to repeat this to myself. And him knowing that keeps me accountable because he will check in with me and be like, okay, now I just want to make sure you're not taking on too much because you remember last year. It's important to let everyone whose life impacts you in a big way to let them know what your mission is so that you know they support you. And sometimes maybe they back off, but maybe you'll also inspire them. So anyway, thank you for this reviewer for getting me off on that tangent, but I think it's helpful to share this with you because it's what we do on this podcast. We keep it honest Are we ready for the mailbag? Let's go. Our first question is about what if we go into a recession? Should we pay off our debt or keep money in savings and maybe try to pay off debt a little bit slowly? This is a really great question, especially right now. As I mentioned at the top, a lot of people, including CFOs are worried about a recession and when usually in a recession, the way we really feel it as people on Main street is businesses close, there are layoffs, there are hiring freezes. To answer this question though, this specific question from this from our audience member, I need to know what kind of debt we're talking about. Is it high interest debt, which means it's more than 8, 9, 10% double digit interest rates and I also want to know how much is sitting in savings. Then I'll be able to give you a better sense of what to do. So without that, I'm going to just guess a couple of scenarios and then give my recommendations and then maybe you'll hear yourself in one of these scenarios. So firstly, if you have, let's say enough in savings where you can cover basic expenses for six months would be great. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry about contributing extra to the savings. I would focus on the debt and I would start with the debt that has the highest interest rate. If any of those debts are variable too, you want to prioritize by the highest interest and the ones that are variable and put an extra principal payment or an extra few minimum payments towards those debts to just get out of that as soon as possible. Those are your most expensive pieces of debt. This is a little bit counter to maybe what we've talked about in the past and in the past maybe pre pandemic. I think in the pandemic we really changed in the personal finance community. Me certainly the recommendation for which one to prioritize savings or your debt. And honestly in the pandemic I was like if you've got debt but no savings, focus on the savings. For sure worry about the debt later. And in some cases that was solved for us like our student loan payments. Our federal student loan payments were paused. I've changed my tune over the last few years over whether or not debt should trump savings as we may be entering a recession. I think savings is really important to an extent. And then of course debt is important to address. Now a different scenario. You have ample savings and some high interest credit card debt. I would say high interest credit card debt takes precedence. Tax season comes down to three things. Preparation, preparation, and preparation. And if you're like most people, keeping track of all your financial logins, receipts and tax documents can feel like an impossible task. That's where 1Password comes in. It helps protect you from fake tax prep sites by only auto filling logins on the sites you've actually saved. And let's talk about all those forms you need to Keep track of W2S 1099 business receipts. With 1Password you can securely store and share all of it with encrypted storage. I have been using 1Password for years and honestly I can't imagine handling tax season without it. Before I began using 1Password, I once spent an entire afternoon resetting passwords just to access my tax documents. And of course I had to re answer all those security questions like what was the name of my first pet? Well, I didn't have a pet growing up, so that led to like another hour of confusion. Right now you can get 25% off your first year of 1Password individual or 50% off your the first year of 1Password families@1Password.com somoney that's 1P-A-S-S-W-O-R-D.com somoney all lowercase taxes. They can be stressful, but staying organized doesn't have to be. Get 1Password today. Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach. Each like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50 organic cotton sweaters and 14 karat gold jewelry. And the best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Gotta love that. My Quince purchases carry me through the day from morning till night. From linen tops to washable silk pajamas, organic cotton sweaters. Quince covers all my fashion basics without break the bank. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quints. Go to Quince.com Sewmoney for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com so money to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Somoney this is Jenny Garth from I Do Part 2. You could have lost 10 pounds already if you started one month ago. So are you ready to start today? Find out if weight loss meds are right for you in just three minutes@tryfh.com Results vary based on start weight and adherence to diet, exercise and program goals. Data based on independent studies sponsored by FutureHealth. FutureHealth is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at provider's discretion. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10 off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. We have a question from Debbie Downer on Instagram. Debbie Downer I get it. It's a joke. For two years, Farnooch, she says, I've contemplated leaving my job at a nonprofit, but I have hesitated leaving. I haven't had the capacity to apply to other jobs or take a vacation. In over a year, I'm checking off all the boxes of burnout. I finally hit the breaking point and know that I cannot keep operating at this level. When I leave, I'm worried about tapping into my emergency fund. It's hard enough to get me through three months, but I feel like my emergency fund should be for real emergencies like a health crisis or car trouble. But now I'm considering withdrawing from my Roth IRA to have a cushion when I leave. Is there any fine print that I need to know? I'm 29 years old. I have no dependence other than a dog and taking one month to three months of rest to travel and properly job search. Would love to hear any advice you have, especially knowing the uncertainty of the market. Your show has helped me a lot and taught me what money can mean when you save it. Thanks for all you do. Debbie Downer thank you so much for getting in touch. All right, I have some ideas for you, but I want to go back to what you said about Feeling guilty using your savings and only using savings for real emergencies, like a health crisis. But didn't you just say that you're burnt out? Burnout is a health crisis. If you don't believe me, go back and listen to my conversation with Kate Donovan. She's the creator and host of the Burnout podcast. And we talked about burnout and the signs of burnout. What is the true definition of a burnout? Why? We have to really respect and address burnout like a medical health crisis. So, yeah, valid, you gotta use that savings. And anybody who uses their savings to help themselves out, why would I ever discourage that? I don't care what you use it for. Don't be so hard on yourself about what you're using your savings for. Maybe be congratulating yourself that savings is there, that you put the hard work there, so now it's there for you to serve you in this period of uncertainty. Right. Health is wealth. Secondly, you seem to have your mind already made up about tapping your Roth ira. And I just want to maybe take a few steps back. Don't want you to jump the gun there. Let's look at what you have. You have three months worth of savings. Ideally, like we talked earlier, you'd have closer to four, five, six months. So I would encourage you to really examine that cash that you have and the budget that you are sticking to at the moment and how you may be able to pare that down to structure, stretch that three months worth of savings to possibly four, possibly five months of savings. And because here's the thing, you're saying you want to take some rest, which is important, but one to three months and then you're going to start job searching. Even if you were to, like right today, start to apply for jobs, it could take three months before you get an accepted offer, because depending on the bureaucracy at the company, how big it is, the hoops you might have to go through, the interviews, all of that, it may take several weeks, if not months. So just bake that in to your calculus for how much you're going to need. So, first step, just retool that monthly budget so that you can really just optimize the cash that you have on hand so that you're not going to have to attack the Roth ira. Another way you can stretch that savings, and we talked about this with Kate on the podcast, is imagine you've got to quit your job. How can you bring in some extra money in other ways that is not stressful, where you're not having to go to work and be drained emotionally. This is something that in any economy, but particularly now, we don't know where the job market is going. Stay in the game. I don't want you to lose momentum. I don't want you to feel like you are going to start applying for jobs after many months of not having a job and then having to explain that gap when, at a time when employers may not be so desperate to hire people, let's just say, but also because this is going to help you out financially. Can you bring in $501,000 a month through some side hustles, some freelance work, things like that? Again, we talked about this with Kate, where when you're transitioning from burnout especially, it's not like you leave your job and the burnout stops. You have to really work on yourself, figure out why you were burnt out. And along the way, I think you don't want to add financial stress to that, to always be worried about, am I going to deplete my savings to just have something like you just literally clock in and clock out? Like it could just be a job at a retailer. Why am I saying this? Because I don't want you to have to tap your Roth ira, All right? I'm really protective of retirement accounts. There's no catch. Of course, to make those withdrawals from your Roth ira, you can make withdrawals of whatever contributions you've made to your Roth ira. Penalty free, tax free. Ideally, I would just love that we never have to resort to this. And maybe you could do the first couple things that I suggested, which is stretch the budget, get a part time job. And then if you do need more time off and you're like, oh, okay, I'm going to probably run out. Look at the Roth IRA as a supplement, but don't immediately assume you're going to need it because that's going to just miss out on the compounding growth. And you want to be able to protect yourself today, but also yourself in the future. And your Roth IRA is flexible. It's got this provision, you can take the money out. I just want you to try to consider other pathways before you do that. Okay? Next up is our friend Joseph who writes emails. In Fact, Farnoosh@somanypodcasts.com if you want to do an email, but he says, farnoosh, thanks for being such a fabulous, refreshing money voice for me over the past four years. So here's my situation. My husband is in his first year of medical residency in the Denver area. He's 32. I'm 34, I do well financially. I make $90,000 a year with a strong career path ahead. But we're not going to be able to afford anywhere near a 20% down payment. With the Denver market the way it is, we would need to wait many more years as opposed to buying in one to three years. Wondering if we can rely on the physician mortgage option and continue putting 18 to 20% toward retirement, which seems like the smarter move, and not cut back there. We know we're lucky to even have this physician mortgage option and especially if we can get a fixed rate, it seems like the way to go. Or is it better to wait until we put closer to 20% down? What do you think? Am I missing something? And we do have a six month emergency fund and no debt. All right, Joseph. Rocking and rolling here and Denver. So beautiful. This is the question, should they take out the physician mortgage, also known as a doctor loan? And just for everybody listening, what is this? Essentially these are loans meant for new medical professionals that are just entering the field. Doctors, as we know, are often at a disadvantage when they are trying to get a regular mortgage early in their careers because they have a very lopsided debt to income ratio. They've got a lot of student loan debt, not a lot of income yet. But we know that equation usually changes because doctors, they can't, they can make a lot of money. And so they created this mortgage for physicians specifically that allows them to skip both a down payment and private mortgage insurance. And this is a question that comes up a lot. Not specifically this physician loan question, but this idea of skipping the down payment when possible because there's federal housing association loans, FHA loans that do provide that, veteran loans, things like that people can tap into to avoid the down payment. And we actually covered this a bit, I think in a previous askfar niche. I think last Friday somebody asked about FHA loans and no down payment loans. And I was like, you know what, just because you can doesn't mean you should. You really have to know your risk tolerance and also risk assess the town that you're buying in. So a few thoughts for you, Joseph. You know, you're in Denver now because that's where your husband is doing his residency. But will you be there in the long run? And so if you're going to do this, do it when you're positive you're going to be in an area for a minimum 5, 10 years. Because the big risk, the top risk I think in a no down payment scenario is that the home price drops. You need to sell because you're now moving and you're underwater. So you're going to sell at a loss potentially. And that's just obviously the first thing you have to think about. It may not matter if the home price drops and you're still in the home and you can make the payments and you're earning money and who cares, because you're going to be in this home for a while and home prices go up and down and you feel covered. But just be aware of that risk. The other potential issue with these types of loans is that they don't offer a fixed interest rate. In many cases with an adjustable rate mortgage is what you're most likely going to get. You're going to get that lower interest payment at first, but then it's going to adjust higher and it's going to usually align with wherever the rates are going. And if rates are going up, then your ARM is going to go up as well. Increased monthly payments as you live in this home. Now that said, you may be able to refinance eventually to a conventional 30 year fixed rate mortgage. But at that point you're going to have to really have a much better debt to income ratio. The two of you. You're going to have to show obviously years of work and good credit scores, all those things. You're gonna have to basically now apply for a mortgage again and you're gonna have to have equity. But the upside to that is that maybe you'll get a fixed rate in an environment where rates are uncertain and they seem to be trending higher. And then the last thing I want to say about this is just again, we talked about Denver and it's competitive and if you're like loving a house but you're going down with 0% and, and there's a buyer that's got all cash or 50% down, which is not unheard of, right in this very tight housing market. You're not a very competitive buyer in many markets right now that are experiencing a lot of demand relative to their supply. So just another thing to manage expectations. But again, I think the big issue here is how long are you planning to live in Denver or somewhere else where you're going to be taking on this loan. Make sure it's a pretty long time that you want to be there so that you can ride out fluctuations in the home value. While you have zero percent equity, you could refinance eventually down the road from an ARM to a fixed rate. At that point you want to have a stronger financial profile and then Be prepared that this may not win over sellers who are looking to get top bid on their homes. But I appreciate the question and thank you so much for being such a loyal listener all these years to the show. And I think I. Yeah, I mentioned you caught up on all the episodes. Damn, Joseph. My God. Thank you so much. All right. And last but not least, we have our friend Allie, who's wondering how to transfer brokerage accounts. Here's the question, Farnooch. I am ready to break up with my financial advisor thanks to programs like yours. Okay, if you're not happy with your financial advisor, it's time to break up. It's not cheap, right? It's like breaking up with your hairdresser or your dentist. It can be awkward. Anyway, she says, I have a $300,000 taxable brokerage account and a $33,000 Roth IRA. By the way. Amazing. I'm a teacher in California, so I'll be getting a pension. Is there any special considerations for moving money out of Schwab, my broker's house to my Fidelity account? I know 401 s need a custodian to custodian transfer to avoid the taxes. Is there anything like that for IRAs, for taxable accounts? I'd like to make this an easy breakup. My recommendation, Allie, first is to hook up with someone, an in house financial advisor expert at Fidelity, which is the receiving firm, because they're going to be taking that money in, who can explain to you the process. And you tell them also what you want to do. And they will explain to you how they're going to do this transfer. These happen automatically, but it's always good to talk to a human to understand the process. They'll probably have you fill out an online form. It's called the transfer initiation form. And they'll handle it. You're dealing with two well known established brokerages. That's the good news. I'm sure Schwab and Fidelity talk to each other every single day for these reasons. So it's totally protocol. And ultimately the goal here is from Fidelity's perspective, and I think it's what you want too, is to set up identical accounts for you at Fidelity. So that the fund transfers can go basically from apples to apples. Now, there may be some cases where you have some funds, ETFs that are very specific to Schwab. It's happened and Fidelity's. We don't carry that exact flavor of mutual funds, but we have something very similar. So what they'd have to do probably is cash out that particular fund and then take that cash and reinvest it in that very other similar fund. But they won't probably ever do that without letting you know. They have to disclose in those cases when they're cashing out your investments so you will be informed. I've gone through this. I've broken up with my financial advisor and I just, again, I applaud you for breaking up with your advisor if you felt like it wasn't the right fit. And I actually want to take the last few minutes here to read you the email that I sent my financial advisor back in the day when I was trying to make a clean split and full disclosure. I liked my financial advisor. It wasn't her, it was me. Okay? I still talk to her. I still recommend people to her. I think she's great. I just think that, that we outgrew her. And me and my husband. I. We were working with her when we first got married. She set us up with all the great things, five to nine plans. She got us hooked up with an insurance agent to fill up our sort of insurance holes in our financial life. We needed more life insurance. I needed disability insurance. So we got all that and we paid for the financial plan and we were just like cruising. This was before Robo Advisors, I should mention. So once Robo Advisors entered the picture, I was like, bye. So here's what I wrote. Dear Sewins, we are writing to let you know that we really appreciate the hard work and thoughtful guidance you've provided us over the last few years. We feel confident in knowing that we're going to hit our retirement goals. Our estate plan is in great shape and Evans529 plan is growing. As we review our needs going forward, we don't think we need as much undivided attention. We've made the decision to work directly with Financial Advisor Brokerage house. I should say we think this move will be best for us over the long run. We trust you understand and you're probably not surprised based on our conversations earlier this year. Again, thank you for all that you've helped us with. We couldn't be here where we are without you. And we'll continue to refer many friends and colleagues your way. Please let us know what next steps you recommend. You guys are great. I will be in touch with next steps and that that is how it's done. Okay. It's just cordial clean by. And I probably have saved thousands and thousands. That email saved me thousands of dollars and I didn't drag my feet. I just was like it's time. It's time for anoosh. And that is our time. That's a wrap everybody. Thank you so much for joining me on this Friday. I hope you have some fun plans and I hope your weekend is so money. Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. 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