1808: How to Manage Up and Take Your Power Back at Work

Summary

Podcast Summary: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi Episode Title: 1808: How to Manage Up and Take Your Power Back at Work
Release Date: April 2, 2025
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Melody Wilding, Author and Executive Coach
Book Discussed: Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge

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Introduction to Managing Up

[02:08] Farnoosh Torabi
In this episode, Farnoosh Torabi welcomes Melody Wilding back to So Money to delve into the intricacies of managing up in the workplace. Melody introduces her book, Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge, focusing on strategies to navigate challenging relationships with managers, advocate for raises, and maintain sanity when leadership is lacking. The conversation sets the stage for understanding the importance of internal boundaries, power dynamics, and owning one's value within an organization.

Key Quote:
Melody Wilding emphasizes, “Managing up is really about how you navigate your relationships with the people that have more positional power than you” [05:41].

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Defining Managing Up

[04:51] Melody Wilding
Melody outlines that managing up isn’t about manipulating managers or being sycophantic. Instead, it’s a self-focused strategy to create conditions conducive to personal success, confidence, and control in the workplace. She highlights that as careers advance, relational skills often surpass technical abilities in importance.

Key Quote:
“We hear again and again from clients who would say I need to manage up better, but no one tells them how,” Melody explains [06:15].

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Practical Applications of Managing Up

[09:56] Farnoosh Torabi
The discussion moves to real-life scenarios, such as interpreting a manager’s curt email. Melody introduces the concept of understanding different communication styles to prevent over-personalizing a manager’s behavior.

Example Scenario:
A manager sends a brief or seemingly angry email (e.g., using all caps), and the employee internalizes it as a personal affront. Melody advises contextualizing the behavior by recognizing it as the manager’s communication style rather than a reflection of the employee’s performance.

Key Quote:
“Most of the time, what we perceive as difficult behavior is actually just a difference in how we are approaching a situation,” Melody states [11:40].

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Handling Critical and Narcissistic Managers

[13:31] Melody Wilding
Melody offers strategies for dealing with highly critical or narcissistic managers. She discusses the importance of setting internal and external boundaries to prevent absorbing negative emotions from toxic leadership.

Techniques Introduced:

1. Facilitating Conversations: Asking managers what is going well to focus on positive aspects and efficiency.
2. Gray Rock Technique: Minimizing personal engagement with toxic leaders to avoid feeding into their negativity.

Key Quote:
“Imagine a barrier between you and that person, like a pane of glass, to prevent taking on their stuff,” Melody advises [16:31].

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Managing Up in a Virtual and Hybrid Workplace

[19:09] Farnoosh Torabi
Farnoosh inquires about the challenges of managing up in today’s increasingly virtual and hybrid work environments. Melody discusses the diminished organic visibility of employees in remote settings and emphasizes the need for proactive communication to highlight achievements and maintain visibility.

Strategies for Virtual Environments:

• Proactive Reporting: Structured updates and project briefs to showcase accomplishments.
• Digital Communication: Effectively using digital platforms to communicate milestones and successes.

Key Quote:
“Your work is not going to speak for itself, so you have to be proactive in highlighting your achievements,” Melody explains [20:00].

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Money Conversations and Negotiations

[22:02] Farnoosh Torabi
The conversation shifts to the intersection of managing up and financial negotiations. Melody underscores that money is a reflection of an employee’s value in the workplace and discusses the complexities of negotiating compensation within power dynamics.

Key Considerations in Money Negotiations:

• Understanding Organizational Context: Awareness of hiring freezes, budget constraints, and organizational priorities.
• Stakeholder Involvement: Identifying who else is involved in the promotion or raise process beyond the immediate manager.

Key Quote:
“Money is how we tend to value ourselves in the workplace. It’s a reflection of the value that we’re bringing,” Melody emphasizes [22:35].

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Empowering Employees with Leverage

[30:34] Farnoosh Torabi
Farnoosh shares a listener’s story about dealing with a toxic boss in a remote healthcare setting. She discusses advising the listener to leverage their unique value and relationships within the organization to manage up effectively.

Key Strategies Highlighted:

• Leveraging Unique Contributions: Recognizing one’s indispensable role and the manager’s reliance on their expertise.
• Building Social Capital: Utilizing relationships and specialized knowledge to increase one’s influence and bargaining power.

Key Quote:
Melody notes, “You may have more leverage than you think because of your unique contributions and relationships,” [30:57].

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Current Landscape of Leadership

[25:25] Farnoosh Torabi
Farnoosh and Melody discuss the current state of leadership, especially in the post-COVID era and the integration of AI in the workplace. Melody observes that leaders today are often burned out and under immense pressure, which can negatively impact their effectiveness and the organizational culture.

Insights on Leadership:

• Need for Clear Communication: Leaders should explicitly communicate their working preferences and expectations.
• Treating Employees as Partners: Encouraging a culture where employees are seen as collaborators rather than mere subordinates.

Key Quote:
Melody states, “Leaders should be much more clear and much more specific about how they work and operate,” [26:21].

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[31:53] Farnoosh Torabi
Farnoosh wraps up the episode by thanking Melody Wilding for her insightful contributions. She reiterates the importance of managing up to navigate workplace dynamics effectively and encourages listeners to implement the strategies discussed to reclaim their power and achieve professional success.

Key Quote:
Melody concludes, “When you’re a forward thinker, the only thing you’re afraid of is business as usual,” emphasizing the importance of proactive personal development [32:38].

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Additional Resources

• Book Mentioned: Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge by Melody Wilding
• Melody Wilding: Executive Coach and Author
• So Money Members Club: Join at SoMoneyMembers.com for exclusive content and more.

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This episode provides actionable insights for professionals seeking to enhance their workplace relationships, advocate for themselves effectively, and maintain control over their career trajectories. By focusing on self-empowerment and strategic communication, listeners can navigate complex managerial dynamics and achieve their professional goals.

Transcript

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

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[Melody Wilding]

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

So money episode 1808 how to manage up and Take youe Power Back at work.

[Melody Wilding]

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Kharabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.

More practically, if you're dealing with someone like that who is highly critical, this is where you do need to facilitate the relationship with them. You might say, okay, I hear you're not happy with this. What do you think is going well? I would like to hear one thing that's going well so that I know what to do more of. If you can contextualize it and what you know is important to them, like, hey, I want to be as efficient as our time, with our time on this shoot as possible. So what do you think is going well? Because that's going to allow me to do more of that so we can get this done more quickly.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Welcome to Sew Money, everybody. I'm Farnish Tarabi. On today's episode, we're talking about how to navigate a tricky boss, how to advocate for a raise, or just stay sane when your manager goes awol. We have author and executive coach Melody Wilding returning to the show to share wisdom from her new book, managing up. How to get what you need from the people in charge. We explore how to Maintain internal boundaries, read between the lines and power dynamics and own your value. Even when leadership falls short, Melody unpacks what it really means to manage up, which is not to say that we're going to be flattering our bosses. She walks us through powerful frameworks, communication, scripts, and even how to advocate for more money without burning bridges. Let's get into it. Melody Wilding, welcome back to Sew Money. It's so great to see you and with such an exciting time in your life and in readers lives. Your new book is called Managing Up. How to get what yout need from the People in Charge. I needed this book 20 years ago.

[Melody Wilding]

Yes, well thanks for having me back. I always love being with you.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

You know, I remember a story in my 20s, I think I wrote about it in my book Healthy State of Panic. I was, I had what I thought was the dream job, Melody, you know, and it was in many ways it was an opportunity to like really be in New York and be a journalist. And I was failing a lot. And I think part of that was I, yes, had a lot of milestones and learning to do and I was messing up. But I also realized that I was internalizing so much from the people around me, people who were managing me were stressing me out. And so it was my father actually who said to me, you need to tune them out. And I thought, oh, that's not possible, like how do I actually do that? But I think what I, what I did when I got back to work was I did start to sort of. And I think what we're going to get to your book is kind of like manage my reaction to them and create boundaries around how I was going to let them affect me and you know, maybe not tune them out entirely, but I was sort of feeling more empowered with that new take, that new like lens through which I was going into work work and seeing my co colleagues and my managers. And I do think that part of that was what you might call managing up. But I want to hear from you, what do you mean by managing up? And then I want to get into the actual practical applications of this because I think for so many people that sounds great, but like how do you actually do that? And you've got so many great conversations in the book that we need to be having with management. But first tell us how you came to this thesis.

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah, well, I think your experience is what a lot of people have, right? You're dropped into the workplace and no one ever teaches you kind of these invisible skills. How do you navigate the politics around you, the relationships around you, especially now as AI is replacing a lot of tasks. And generally the higher you rise in your career, your ability to influence people and build relationships with them starts to outweigh your technical skills. And that's what managing up is really about. How do you navigate your relationships with the people that have more positional power than you? Your boss is one of them. Your boss is not the only person. And so I think your situation, your story, speaks to the fact that managing up is actually something you do for yourself.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah.

[Melody Wilding]

Rather than something you do for your manager's benefit. It's something you do to create the conditions for, for your success, to feel more confident, to feel more in control. And yes, it's nice that making your boss look good is a, is a side effect of that. But really it's about you.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Right. I think sometimes when you hear managing up, you assume it means I have to start managing my managers or those who are more politically powerful than me at work. And that is not what you're saying. I really love how you organize the book. A series of conversations.

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah. And it can be something that is just woven into how you approach work rather than this big pressure filled situation you have to confront. And the idea for the conversations really came about because I would hear again and again from clients who would come to me and say, I'm being told I need to manage up better or I need to influence without authority. I need to build my relationships across the matrix, whatever terminology they would use, but no one would tell them how. How do you do that? And at most you get these one liners of be proactive, take initiative, go above and beyond. And that really doesn't go very far. Really doesn't give you much to go on. And so I really wanted to create a methodology that felt like this is a skill you can learn step by step. And it takes advantage of those organic moments you have every day. Whether it's sending a slack message to your boss or presenting in front of senior leadership, or having a few minutes ahead of the zoom meeting where you and an executive are there and you want to make the most of that. Those are all moments to shape how you're perceived. And so the conversations really came out of that.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

I want to get to the money conversation in a moment, but first, let's just set the scene for who this book is really for. You heard my story in my 20s, struggling to feel like I could even communicate well with my managers. I was letting them and their, you know, whatever they were bringing to work affect me. And in your introduction, you know, you highlight some of the wishes of the people who would arrive at this book, like, what they're really hoping to accomplish at work. Like, I know I could be making a bigger impact. Impact's huge. I'm having difficulty navigating the politics. I don't want to feel beholden to that. I'm tired of being overlooked, undervalued. Talk a little bit about your target demo here.

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah, well, another reason why I felt like I had to write this book now is because if you think about what we've all been facing the last five years, a lot feels out of our control. And I think many of us feel just jerked around and at the whim of everything that's happening around us. And for a lot of people, most of where that's happening is in their careers, where they feel like, oh, now it's yet another reorg, My manager has changed, or I have no idea what it looks like to advance, advance here, or how I get a raise. And you just feel like you're in the passenger seat. You're just reacting to everything that's happening around you. And so this book is for the person who wants to feel proactive, feel like you are shaping your trajectory, your success, who wants to feel confident and in control, to be able to hold your own in all of those interactions. And I think what you were saying is, you know, we. We talked when my first book came out, Trust Yourself.

And.

And that book really is geared towards people who process everything, who think and feel everything more deeply. And so it came from that as well. Working with people who consider themselves overthinkers, people pleasers. And instead of blaming yourself as that's a character defect within you, there's many times it just comes down to knowing, how do I manage up more effectively? So I don't second guess that email to my manager for an hour straight or knowing how do I push back when they dump another request on me instead of caving and getting nervous in that situation?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Well, let's just take those two examples. Let's. Let's workshop that. Right now. You get an email from your manager and the tone is it's hitting hard. Say it's not sitting well with you. It seems maybe it's all caps, you know, and sometimes I get people who are like, why did you do that in all caps? I'm like, oh, because when I worked in Broadcast News, we wrote in all caps for the teleprompter. So, you know, but it comes across for someone who's not in the industry. It's like you're yelling. And so let's, let's just take that one first. You know, you get an email from your boss and it seems short. It seems like you're in trouble, you're internalizing it. What do you do?

[Melody Wilding]

Okay, well, that's a perfect situation about the teleprompter example, and I didn't know that. So that's, that's amazing. And why it's a great example is because this gets to the styles conversation, which is the second conversation in the book. And that's purposely because it's so foundational. Most of the time. What we perceive as difficult behavior is actually just a difference in how we are approaching a situation or an approach in our communication. And when you can understand, I may be someone, and this is true of me, that I am someone who likes to lead with context. I want all the background. I want to understand people's feelings about a situation. If you know your boss is someone who is, to the point, wants the bullets, just give me the bottom line. Who cares about results, doesn't care as much about the people involved or their feelings, then you're far less likely when they just say okay to your email, right? This long email that you put a lot of effort to and they just say okay, or how about just K? Exactly. Even worse, right?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

They can't even write okay, what the heck?

[Melody Wilding]

Yes. At least you can put it. You can still be angry about it, but you can put it into context that, all right, this is not a reflection on me and my capability. This is, this is part of their style.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

It's a them problem.

[Melody Wilding]

It's a them problem. Exactly. Now, it could lead to a bigger question of is this someone you want to work for long term, but at least you know, all right, if I'm speaking to this person, I'm not going to put together a 30 slide deck. I'm going to give them my top five bullet points in the executive summary and let them know the top decision I need from them in that moment.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

But here's also my challenge is when you are working with someone who is that way, who is not considerate, who is testy, who flips out it, you can't help but have that affect you. Like yesterday I was doing a job and I thought I was doing a good job, but the person who, the client, let's just say, was unhappy with some of the things that I was doing and really nitpicking and then making me nervous, and as a result I would f up, I think more because, like, I was worried about them, you know, pleasing them and then not focusing on the work. Like, it was like a whole mind fucking for like hours and hours yesterday with me in this particular job that I was on. And I got through it. Like, I had a lot of mental conditioning, a lot of like self good, positive self talk and getting in my zone and all of that and trying to just, I guess, manage up. But it was. I will not lie that there were some times where I messed up because I was caught up in their bs. How do. How do you not do that?

[Melody Wilding]

I wish there was an easy button for this, but a few things, a few things come to mine that when, when that happens, this, this comes back to the boundaries conversation, right? And actually in my first book, Trust Yourself, I talk about this. How do you not absorb other people's feelings? There's a difference between external boundaries, what you say to someone, and internal boundaries. Internal boundaries is how much do I allow this to take up space in my mind and in my heart, right. And it's how much do I want, how much do. Will I allow this to affect me? And something a lot of my clients find helpful is almost imagining a barrier between you and that person. Whether it's like a pane of glass or a bubble around you or that other person, it's just this visual reminder not to take on their stuff. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of an emotional technique. But more practically, if you're dealing with someone like that who is highly critical, this is where you, you do need to facilitate the relationship with them. You might say, okay, I hear you're not happy with this. What do you think is going well? I would like to do one thing that's going well, please, so that I know what to do more of. Right. And if you can, if you can contextualize it and what you know is important to them, like, hey, I want to be as efficient as our time, with our time on this shoot as possible. So what do you think is going well? Because that's going to allow me to do more of that so we can get this done more quickly. Right? And so those just kind of techniques know how, knowing how to redirect someone who's highly critical, or even if you have someone who's highly narcissistic, like let's say a highly narcissistic boss, you can use what's called the gray rock technique. This comes from the therapeutic world. That's my background, but very useful in the workplace. Gray rock technique is make yourself as bland as possible. Like as bland as a gray rock. And so instead of engaging them, maybe they share an idea. And typically with any other person you'd ask follow up questions and say how'd you get there? Tell me more about with this person you're going to say that's interesting. Thanks for sharing that. That's it. No more engagement. Or if they ask you about how your weekend was, you say it was good. Ransome errands, you know, relaxed a little. Do not give any more personal information. Now is that going to be sustainable long term? Only you can decide that. But I am a big advocate that there's a lot of talk out there about if you have a toxic boss, just leave. You're better than that. Which is true, you are better than that and your mental health is more important than that. But it's not always possible to leave. And you talk about this a ton on the show where you may not be in a financial position to leave your job tomorrow. So you have to make the best of a difficult situation, at least for a little while.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

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[Melody Wilding]

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thank you for that. Thank you for those, those tools because I think that's a lot of us right now suffering through this and not every day. I mean, you know, we're all different people. We're humans roaming the earth. You gotta expect you're gonna have conflict. I think you were talking earlier about this book sense of Urgency right now, and I completely agree. And it also made me think about the workplace transitioning to virtual and hybrid and where that leaves this dynamic. You know, how do you manage up in a virtual world? Had you written this book five years ago, ten years ago, what would have been different or what's new about your book today that wouldn't have been in the book five or ten years ago, simply because of the construct of how we're working these days.

[Melody Wilding]

Sure. I think the most stark example of this is with the visibility conversation, where five, 10 years ago it was easier to be visible at work for multiple reasons and people could organically see what you were doing day to day, who you were talking to, what meetings you were in. You had more casual run ins with people where you could share what you were up to. Not so now, especially if you, whether you're still fully at home, you're in a hybrid, you work on a distributed team, or the people you work with are across the country or across the world, it's just not possible. So you have to be so much more proactive and structured about how you speak for your work, because it's not going to speak for itself. And you can't expect that your manager, even if they have the best intentions and are the best boss in the world, they don't have time always to be your advocate. So you need to, you need to be the one who is arming them with the information they need to advocate on your behalf. And so the visibility conversation is one huge place where that comes in. Even in things like, for example, it becomes so much more to think about in your digital communication. How are you highlighting your wins? Whether it's in your one on one agenda with your boss, you're starting with milestones, key accomplishments, instead of just simple status updates and checkpoints on a project you're really highlighting. Here's what we've done. You're giving them a cheat sheet to run up their own chain of command. Or it's something like maybe once a month, once a quarter, you're sending around a project brief or a project update. That's highlighting again what you've accomplished, who's been involved. It's giving a spotlight first. A certain team member has the purpose of keeping everyone informed, but also highlighting, highlighting what you're doing in a way that again, in this environment, people are more likely to see.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Let's talk about money. Why did you want to include that in the book when we're talking about managing up? Why do you think that's a concept that relates to conversations around money? What is going on where there may be a need to manage up when you're having a conversation about money negotiation, whether that's beginning of the relationship or midway through.

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah, well, I mean, if we're real about. About what the reason, it's because money is how we tend to value ourselves in the workplace. Right. It's a reflection of the value that we're bringing. And that's fundamental.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Can I quote Mad Men when that's.

[Melody Wilding]

What the money is for?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

She said, well, you never say thank you and that's what the money's for.

[Melody Wilding]

Exactly.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Can you imagine if a boss said that today to someone? Everybody wants the thank yous, Melody. It's not enough. Just get paid.

[Melody Wilding]

That's right.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

I get it.

[Melody Wilding]

But. So I wanted to include this because there were very few books that actually talked about it to the extent I wanted to talk about it, especially the power dynamics side of it, because your, your manager has invisible incentives and things that limit them or motivate them to give you more money or not. And so it's a huge part of managing up. And I think it would be a disservice to tell people, okay, here's how you convince your boss to take on this extra project and then not tell you how to be compensated for, for that extra effort that you're going above and beyond for. So that's why I wanted to include it.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's a negotiation. And to your point, there are sometimes these invisible issues going on. Whether it's like your boss needs to go and get buy in from HR or their boss and talk a little bit about some of the things, the information you need to gather before you can successfully manage up in those conversations.

[Melody Wilding]

Yes. Who else needs to be involved? You, you said that. What, what is. Especially if your compensation is going to be tied to a promotion process, what does that look like? What are the steps involved? What is the timeline here? Do I need a sponsor or am I going up to a committee? In some organizations, your manager is, is even involved in your promo process. What times of year do things like calibration happen when they're looking at are people leveled correctly in their role? And also you may be able to ask your manager directly about this. You may have to more so read, read the signs. But what state is the organization in? Right. Are you in a period where there's a hiring freeze? Are you in a time where there's growth, there's innovation, where you may be able to make a case? Well, if I'm given more money, I'll be able to take on these new projects and that aligns with what the organization is doing. Do they even have more cash? So all of these things factor into that conversation and if you just go head first. You also even said your manager may be de incentivized to give you an opportunity because they only have a certain amount of raises per year or a certain amount of bonus money that they can play with. So they may be capped there, there may be some competition with another team. Right. Where they don't want to give you an opportunity, frankly, or with you, because they don't want to lose you. So all of these things factor into it.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Your book entitled Managing up, it implies that there are fractures in leadership everywhere. Right. That the need for this book comes up because people at the top are, I don't want to say failing, but there is a disconnect. And as employees of these leaders, you're giving us the empowering Tools to be able to navigate the workplace without having to change your boss, but sort of change the dynamic that you have with your boss. But it begs the question just what's your read your temperature read on leadership today and how things like Covid and hybrid work AI has impacted the quality of leaders that we have right now in the workplace?

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

What would you like to see more of? You know, because yes, there's so many things as employees we can do. But like, what's your advice for leaders?

[Melody Wilding]

Yeah, I've been getting this question a lot because yes, it. Leaders have. Because of their station and their additional responsibility. Right. They. They have should be held to a higher standard. And I think the fact is leaders are burned out. They are stretched so thin. And then that has a ripple effect down the organization. Whether it's changing priorities every minute, it's pushing down more and more and more work. It's them not being emotionally stable always or emotionally clear. And then that is becoming. That negativity is becoming contagious on the team. So I think leaders are really pressured. They're really. It's a tough time. It's a tough time for them because they're trying to gain their bearings and then that just filters down. But I think most, for the most, there are truly toxic, difficult leaders out there. Most leaders are decent humans trying to do the best they can with the pressures, the changes, the idiosyncrasies that they have. They are imperfect humans in imperfect situations. And I'm not saying that to like to wash them of any responsibility, but what I would like to see happen is that leaders get better at telling people how to manage up to them and being much more clear and much more specific about and explicit about how this is how I work and operate as a leader. If you want to communicate with me effectively, here's the cheat sheet for that. Here's how I would like to receive updates. Like, instead of leaving employees guessing or guessing at what good performance looks like, great performance looks like the metrics they're being measured by. I think a lot of leaders don't do those things because they have a lack of clarity from their own leadership or they feel like I don't have time and that's slowing me down. But there again, there's this ripple effect that that has. So I would love to see more leaders having upfront conversations like, we are going to disagree. Let's just get that out on the table. You and I will not always see eye to eye, but when we disagree, here's how it would Be helpful if you raise that with me. And even just making it clear that's something you can do. Right. And treating their employees more like trusted partners or advisors rather than subordinates, because everybody wins when that's the case.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah. You know, this reminds me of a so money listener who reached out to me. And she works in healthcare. She works on a very, very small team, mostly remote. It's basically just her and her boss on their team. And she was explaining how her boss was quote, unquote, toxic in the sense that. Well, first, her work habits were not exemplary. You know, she was never really around, not on everyone, sort of virtual. But she was very hard to reach sometimes. This person who reached out to me, she was. Had a very big workload. Her boss would often take credit for her results. And she asked me, do you think that I should quit? She said, I love the job. I love the company. I have great benefits, I have a great salary. I was like, no, do not quit. It sounds like you need to. And I didn't have the words then, but you need to manage up. And I, you know, I don't know who else is. Who else touches your department, who else. Who is her boss, perhaps, but, like, you need to cozy up to that person and also start to become more of an advocate for your work. To your point, whether that's every time you create something, you send it to your boss and you CC other people that are stakeholders. Right. And I think that me telling her to do these things or suggesting that she do these things, she intellectually understood the value in doing that, but there was some fear that her boss would retaliate. And I thought, okay, that's a fair feeling. But also, have you considered that you are very important to your boss? She's mia, you're running the show. If you leave, her jigs up and she said, you know, you're right. So tell me, did I give good advice there? And, like, what else would you have consulted in that moment?

[Melody Wilding]

I think that was a very wise observation. Yeah. Most of us don't think about the leverage we do have and that our bosses do need us. Right. We're closer to the work. We're usually the executors. Right. We have a lot of relationships that they may not have directly with vendors or clients or whatever it is. We have our fingers in the data. We know where the spreadsheet.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

We know where the skeletons are buried.

[Melody Wilding]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And there's a concept in the boundaries chapter about your pushback power and really assessing that before you set boundaries because you may have more pushback power, more leverage than you think. Especially if you're someone who has been a high performer. You've built social capital around that. If you're someone who's in a pretty specialized role or like this person, you're the only person on the team. If you left, your manager would be really up a creek to try to replace you. All all of those things factor into having more pushback power and often we don't think about that. We just think about the the title or the role difference. We don't think about the other types of power because you may have information power or network power that your manager doesn't have.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah, that's a great point, Melody. This has been such an important conversation. Thank you very, very much for writing your book Managing up how to get what you need from the people in Charge. Second book and I'm sure part of a volume a library of more books to come. Thank you so much.

[Melody Wilding]

Thank you.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thanks so much to Melody Wilding for joining us. Her book again is called Managing up How to get what you need from the people in charge. I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnouche and I hope your day is so Money.

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