← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1810: The Silent Struggle of Success: The Price We Pay for High Performance
00:32:23
Loading summary
Transcript44 lines
- [00:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
A Real Lemonade Pet Insurance Review by.
- [00:02]
Madison H.
Madison H. You know, I thought it was a little ridiculous to get pet insurance, but I really didn't want to not take my little kitten to the vet because of money. In the last eight months, I've taken him in six times because of ear infections and saved literally hundreds of dollars. He may even need to get surgery and I couldn't consider it without Lemonade's help. I recommend Lemonade to all my friends constantly and now I'm recommending it to you.
- [00:26]
Farnoosh Torabi
Check it out@lemonade.com Pet tax season comes down to three things. Preparation, preparation, and preparation. And if you're like most people, keeping track of all your financial logins, receipts and tax documents can feel like an impossible task. That's where 1Password comes in. It helps protect you from fake tax prep sites by only auto filling logins on the sites you've actually saved. And let's talk about all those forms you need to Keep track of.w2s 1099s business receipts. With 1Password you can securely store and share all of it with encrypted storage. I have been using 1Password for years and honestly I can't imagine handling tax season without it. Before I began using 1Password, I once spent an entire afternoon resetting passwords just to access my tax documents. And of course I had to re answer all those security questions like what was the name of my first pet? Well, I didn't have a pet growing up, so that led to like another hour of confusion. Right now you can get 25% off your first year of 1Password individual or 50% off your first year of 1 password families@1Password.com so money. That's 1P a S-S-W-O-R-D.com somoney all lowercase taxes. They can be stressful, but staying organized doesn't have To Be. Get 1Password Today. So Money Episode 1810 the Silent Struggle of Success the Price We Pay for High Performance a conversation with Dr. Judith Joseph.
- [01:55]
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO money.
- [02:22]
Dr. Judith Joseph
You are more than your role. You just forgot who you are. And when I say that, I even tear up a bit. There's only one you. Think about that. There will only ever be one you. You are precious. You are here for a reason. And sometimes we believe that our role is who we are. It's not. You're more than that. And slowing down. I really challenge my clients to slow down because we always do this reframing exercise where we think about the absolute worst thing that will happen if you were to slow down just a little bit. And usually we're able to challenge that.
- [02:58]
Farnoosh Torabi
Welcome to so Money, everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Right now, the world feels like it's moving a mile a minute. New cycles are relentless. The pressure to keep up professionally, personally, financially is overwhelming. And beneath all that hustle, so many of us are struggling and we're doing it quietly. On the surface, everything looks fine, but we feel disconnected and depleted. That's why today's guest and our conversation feels especially urgent. Dr. Judith Joseph is a renowned psychiatrist, researcher and media personality. And her new book, High Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim your Joy, is putting a name to what so many high achieving, outwardly successful people are feeling on the inside. Dr. Judith introduces us to the concept of high functioning depression, where you're still performing, still showing up, but joy and meaning are missing. And in this episode, she helps us understand the roots of this experience. Trauma, relentless self sacrifice, even our relationship with money, and how we can begin to heal using her powerful evidence based framework, the Five V's. What I especially love about Dr. Judith's advice is her invitation to slow down, to pause, reflect and reconnect with who we are. Beyond our productivity, beyond our titles. In the time when everything feels uncertain and fast moving, her message is a reminder that stillness is not weakness. It's where clarity and joy can return. Let's dive in. Dr. Judith Joseph, welcome to so Money, the most anticipated interview of 2020. 2025. For me at least.
- [04:40]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Thank you. So great to see you and to speak with you again.
- [04:44]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. And we're excited for your upcoming book. It's out this week. It's called High Functioning, Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim youm Joy. I have to admit, when I read about that feeling that you write about of quote, unquote restlessness when you're not busy, I felt like you were describing me. Do you ever find people just saying, judith, get out of my head, get out of my head.
- [05:10]
Dr. Judith Joseph
All the time. All the time. I've been accused of having cameras in people's homes because they're like, how did you depict my life so accurately?
- [05:19]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. So let's just start off with your explanation of high functioning depression and how it differs from other types of depression.
- [05:26]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, Farnese, you know that I'm a psychiatrist and we talked about how in psychiatry and mental health you don't get a diagnosis or get help or support unless you meet criteria for not being able to function anymore. And with depression, there are all these symptoms. So you could have low energy, poor concentration, low mood anhedonia, which is that feeling of meh or blah, like nothing interests you anymore. But if you don't check that box that says you lack functioning right. Or if you don't check a box that says that you are in significant distress, then your doctor is going to be like, well, you don't really meet criteria. I will see you when things break down. I will see you if you know, you lose your functioning and then you, you don't see them until you are in crisis, which I see as a major problem. And when I was actually going through a period in my life where when I sat still, I felt restless or I felt empty or numb and I was experiencing anhedonia, where like things that used to excite, excite me and give me pleasure just didn't do that for me anymore. I like caught myself in a moment like, oh my gosh, I'm a psychiatrist and I think I'm depressed. And how did this happen? It just kind of snuck up on me. So I decided to put that information out there for others to see, to democratize it, to see if other people experienced the same thing. And like, I just got overwhelming, you know, feedback from people. That video got over 20 million views. Wow. Because people were like, that is me. I too just like eat through lunch. I too wake up before the alarm goes off. You know, I doom scroll at night. You know, I miss my kids during the day, but I don't really interact with them. And then at nighttime I'm looking at pictures of them, you know, like, and I'm like, oh, they're so cute. But I'm not really enjoying this motherhood experience, this fatherhood experience. So I think a lot of us are on autopilot. I think a lot of us, you know, feel numb at times, feel empty when we're sitting still and we just don't know how to articulate that. And high functioning depression encapsulates that experience because you're, you're still going, you're still meeting expectations, you're still overperforming, you're still showing up for others, you are their rock. But life is just not giving you that sense of.
- [07:41]
Farnoosh Torabi
And it's hard to talk about because on the one hand, you look at your life and you're like, I've hit all these achievements. I have a. I have healthy kids. I have a roof over my head. I should be grateful. And so the culture can also make it worse in some cases where you have these voices in your head even telling you, like, you got to ignore these symptoms because this is not the right way to think.
- [08:02]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Absolutely. And I know from reading your book, which was really beautiful, about that immigrant experience of being like, okay, you're in this country, people who didn't have immigrants, you know, what you have, are envying you. So why aren't you grateful? So you feel almost guilty, you know, talking about this experience, because there is no crisis. Right? Like, you have food, you have shelter, you have loved ones, you have a job. However, you're. You're missing out on life. You know, you're. You're a human doing. You're. Instead of being a human being. And that's when I say that statement, like, are you a human doing or human being? People are just like, they just sit still and they're like, oh, my gosh, like, I am just doing. I'm not being. I'm not feeling. And what I explain is that this is related to trauma, unprocessed trauma, because when you push down negative emotions, you don't face them. You know, crisis happens, onto the next. Crisis happens. Okay, we didn't process it. You keep pushing down those negative emotions and that trauma, then it becomes difficult to actually experience joy as well. So you're not just numbing your pain, you're numbing your joy. And that is why you feel anhedonia.
- [09:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. You often hear about people who, let's say, in the aftermath of a divorce. Right. They say, how. How did you cope? Oh, I just kept busy. You know, I. I think about, like, Nicole Kidman when she divorced Tom Cruise, her career skyrocketed.
- [09:28]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yes.
- [09:29]
Farnoosh Torabi
And when she went on interviews, she admitted, you know, I just. This was my way of coping. I just poured myself into my profession. And I wonder, Nicole Kidman aside, I give that example because I think a lot of us do that. We. We try to heal the trauma. We think we're healing it by doing what are sort of quote unquote, productive things. So the trauma. Can you unpack that a little bit more for us? Cause I think that looks different for everybody. Like, for some people, it's the Trauma from the immigrant experience. For others, it could be trauma from more recent experiences. So I just kind of want to understand the roots of, of high functioning depression a little bit more.
- [10:06]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yeah, Farnoosh, that's a great question. And trauma looks different for everyone. So as a medical researcher who looks at ptsd, one of the symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder is avoidance. And I don't think people know that. They just think flashbacks, nightmares, hypervigilance. But avoiding the thing that's painful is a trauma response. And so when you are busying yourself, when you're overworking, when you're pushing yourself, you are avoiding that trauma, you're avoiding that pain. And so I developed a new inventory looking at trauma, because I know that, you know, when people think trauma, they're like, that's not me. Like, I wasn't, I was never assaulted, I was never in war. But there are many different types of trauma. And in my trauma inventory, it includes things like, you know, being treated poorly because of your race, being treated poorly because of your cultural identity, going through a divorce, going through a bankruptcy, Scarcity trauma, which I personally experienced as an immigrant. You know, not having food at times when I was small, not having electricity at times, you know, having anxiety about whether or not we would have a place to live. Those are all traumas that I personally experienced that led me to want to be perfect, to get good grades, to at least focus on things that I can control. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Like when you focus on things within your control and try to strive, that's not necessarily bad. However, what can be harmful is never facing or processing that trauma and instead using these other things to distract and cope. Because that trauma will poke its ugly head when you least expect it, right? And that's why you have people experiencing things like burnout. And for me, what it was was anhedonia. Like, I used to be so excited going to my lab through midtown Manhattan every day and just like, you know, seeing patients. And I just found myself dreading it and being like, why am I doing this? Or like not being present. And so I know people listening to this are probably saying, well, how do I get out of this? There are ways to get out of it. There are evidence based ways to get out of it. But you can't get out of it if you a, can't name it if you B, are avoiding it, right? And three, if you're ashamed of it. You know, for many years, I didn't talk about my scarcity trauma. I went to Duke Columbia, all these, you know, fancy institutions where I was like the. The poor broke kid. But, you know, I felt ashamed and like I was speaking with my therapist and she was like, why don't you just start talking about it? Because, like, you know, maybe, just maybe other people experience the same thing. And again, my scarcity trauma videos have gone viral. You have people from Poland saying, you know, my grandma was in a survivor of war, and we still hoard pens, we still hoard old food, we still, you know, all these things. People from all over the world experience this so, you know, realize that what happened to you is not your fault, right? And that trauma makes you internalize shame, blame. And when you start opening up, you can actually help yourself and help others and you feel less alone. So that's been my personal experience with trauma. And I know that this trauma inventory encapsulates things that people didn't even realize were a trauma, because when I conducted the first ever research study in high functioning depression, speaking with patients and going through the trauma list, they're like, oh my gosh, I forgot about that. You know, like, I didn't realize that was me. And they're realizing that these traumas really shaped the way that they view themselves in the world and how they interact in the world and how they behave in the world.
- [13:29]
Farnoosh Torabi
I'll never forget the first time we took our son to the beach. He was just under a year old and we booked an Airbnb right on the water on Long Island. It had everything we needed for a stress free trip. A fully stocked kitchen for preparing baby meals, a cozy living room for winding down after long days in the sun, and even beach gear that we could borrow. That Airbnb made our trip so much easier and honestly, so much better. That experience made me think about the people who make stays like that possible. Not every Airbnb host has the time to manage all the little details themselves, which is why Airbnb's co host network exists. Whether you're already hosting or thinking about it, a co host can help with guest communication, on site support, and everything in between so you can turn your space into income without all the hassle. If you're curious about hosting but don't want to go at it alone, find a co host@airbnb.com host. Have you ever woken up with a funky symptom like a swollen itchy eye or a tight pain in your neck and immediately googled it or searched TikTok to see what's wrong? We've all gone down that rabbit hole but it's time to get the help and care you really need with Zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care, and more. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a Visit. Appointments through ZocDoc also happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. I can't tell you the number of times I've used Zocdoc in a pinch and you should too. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com somoney to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com somoney zocdoc.com somoney.
- [15:33]
Warby Parker
If you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Not only will you find a great selection of frames, you'll also meet helpful advisors and friendly optometrists. Yep, many Warby Parker locations also offer eye exams. So the next time you need glasses, sunglasses, contact lenses or a new prescription, you know where to look. To find a Warby Parker store near you. Or to book an eye exam, head over to warbyparker.com retail hey prime members.
- [16:05]
Amazon Music
Are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts? Good news. With Amazon Music you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ADFreePodcasts that's Amazon.com ADFreeP Podcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.
- [16:34]
Farnoosh Torabi
I want to get to some of the advice you have around breaking the cycle. You have five key tools, the five Vs, but just double clicking on this issue of the traumas and what feeds high functioning depression, I have to wonder too. It's our definition of success and our cultural the measuring sticks we have for success. You mentioned you went to all these amazing schools. You have an md, you have an mba, and we sort of chase after these quote unquote, you know, status achievements. And I wonder if that also contributes to this feeling of getting to the top of the mountain and going, what was it all for? Because I don't actually feel fulfilled. So how do you recommend all of us listening kind of reassess and reframe our definition of success so that we don't fall into this trap of hfd?
- [17:33]
Dr. Judith Joseph
As a therapist and a researcher all the time, I'm just constantly amazed at how people don't understand the science of your happiness. And when I say that, it's because patients come to me all the time and they're like, well, I tried this because my friend tried it. And I tried that because so and so tried it, and it worked, but it's not working for me. Do you even understand the science of your happiness? And, you know, I think many people don't, right? They just. They're searching and they're looking for tools, and they're going in the wrong direction because they don't even understand the science of your happiness. So the first step is understanding the science of your happiness. And there's only one psychiatrist for every 30,000 patients in some areas of this country. So I wanted to democratize the tools that I use as a psychiatrist who's. Who's traveled the world. I've traveled to over 30 countries Understanding the science of happiness, you know, across various cultures. And. And that's where I developed the 5Vs from which I believe are really practical tools. You don't. You don't have to look too far for them. You don't have to spend a lot of money. They're all within our reach. But because we're so busy chasing someone else's idea of happiness, we don't understand our own. And, and first, I define happiness as. Well, you know, when. When you think about happy, what do you think of? Many of my patients will say, oh, I think of getting that job, getting that partner, getting that home. And I said, well, those are things, you know, like. And if you get those things, the science will show you that once you get the things that you think will make you happy, you're not happy. You're on to the next. You're just on to the next. The same for someone with accolades, right? Like for myself, well, once I get to graduate from college, and then. Then it was, once I get into med school, then graduate from med school, then get a career, then get married, and the goalpost keeps moving. And so I really wanted to understand what happiness was, and it took me back to my lab, to my research. When I see patients in my lab, scientists don't measure happiness. You won't see happiness on any rating scale, what you see are points that make up joy. And so these points, when we add them up on our scales have to do with, well, when you're tired, are you rested? When you're hungry, are you satiated? When you're feeling lonely, are you feeling connected? Right? These are all the plethora of sensations of what makes us a human being, right? Not a human doing, a human being. And if you could add up those points in a day, you will become happier. Notice I'm not saying you'll be happy happier because it's always a work in progress. The goal should be trying to get as many points of joy in a day as possible. Because tomorrow is not promised. Today is what we have. So let's try and boost that today. And over time, when people focus and they, you know, reframe that idea of being happy to happier, they actually start to feel happier. Right. When I bring them in and I do the points and we follow their anhedonia, they they're actually becoming happier and they're like, wow, had I known what actually was the ingredient for my happiness, I would have been doing this all along. And so the 5Vs are validate, acknowledge how you feel, right? Not just I'm fine, start to acknowledge and give a voice to what you're actually experiencing. People with high functioning depression, they tend to invalidate and gaslight themselves. They don't talk about the, the negative, the quote unquote negative emotions. They only feel comfortable sharing the positives, right? So when they post online, they're not going to post, you know, a photo of them crying or sad. It's only going to be rainbows and unicorns. And then number two is venting. How do you feel comfortable expressing your emotions? So in my travels across the world, there are some cultures that we're crying is actually okay, you know, and expressing yourself, you know, through prayer in some cultures is the way to go. For others, it's writing, through others, it's singing. In my book, I give really clear examples as to how you can express venting based on the science of your happiness. And then number three is values. These are things that are priceless, not have price tags. You know, for many years I chased the things with the price tags. And I tell you it, I was left feeling empty. And when I was sitting still, I felt restless. So I had to tap back into the meaningful things in life, things like family and faith and causes that give me a sense of purpose. For some it could be nature, right? And if you're in a big city and you haven't really touched grass in a while, maybe you need to start touching more grass. So I go into helping people to figure out what their values are, because people sometimes feel lost, they forgot who they are. And then number four is a big one. It's the doozy. It's vitals. You know, everything your doctor tells you to do. Make sure you're eating, drinking well, and all that stuff. But I give you specific ways to really tap into how to honor your vitals. So I'm from the Caribbean. When I do movement, it's not just an elliptical machine. I like to move my body to soca, which is a dance where we wind in a gyrate too. But do you know that the science shows that that's a form of bilateral stimulation? So it's literally lighting up the parts of your brain that heals trauma. So understand how your culture can be honored through the vitals. And I include things in the vitals such as toxic relationships, because relationships are the number one predictor of our happiness and longevity and how to see the warning signs. And then number five is vision. Like how do we celebrate our wins today and not delay our happiness? And really practical ways to keep you on track so that I tell people you're not going to be completely healed. No one is. I'm a work in progress. Right. But the vision will help you to stay on track so that you have sustainable happiness. It's important that when you're practicing the 5 Vs not to become high functioning AF when you practice them. So it's 5, right? And they're all pretty lofty. So pick one or two at a time. And I would suggest starting with validation and venting and just, you know, try to get those into practice and then move on to the others. And just keep in mind that as high functioning AF individuals, you may want to do it all, but you know, that defeats the purpose.
- [23:56]
Farnoosh Torabi
That's a good point. Thank you for. That's a very, very important reminder. Don't try to do it all at once, everybody. I know you're tempted for someone listening who's like, I want to do all this, but my fear is that it sounds like there's to some extent I have to like slow down and get quiet. And that scares me because I have a lot of responsibilities, I have a lot of people depending on me. How can I balance doing the work that is necessary to heal my depression and not let too many balls drop on this other side?
- [24:26]
Dr. Judith Joseph
What I say to someone like that because that is me. You are me. If you're listening, we're one of those.
- [24:31]
Farnoosh Torabi
I'm asking for a friend.
- [24:36]
Dr. Judith Joseph
You are more than your role. You just forgot who you are. And when I say that, I even tear up a bit. There's only one you. Think about that. There will only ever be one you. You are precious. You are here for a reason. And sometimes we believe that our role is who we are. It's not. You're more than that. And slowing down. I really challenge my clients to slow down because we always do this reframing exercise where we think about the absolute worst thing that will happen if you were to slow down just a little bit. And usually we're able to challenge that, because when you slow down, you have to realize what you're experiencing is contagious. Your anhedonia, your lack of pleasure, that is contagious. I remember my daughter said to me once, mommy, I don't want to go. I don't want to go to do this errand. And I said, and I thought, you know, for me, the. The go to the human doing was like, well, if we don't do this, then we. I won't be on time for this. And then things would be. And then I just looked at her precious face and I said, you know, baby, you're right. I actually don't want to go either. And we didn't go, and everything was fine. So I think a lot of times we just because of our trauma responses to be busy and to do. And we think we're only valuable if we're doing and showing up for others. I think we don't. It's a huge assumption. We don't realize that the people in our lives, they want us to slow down. They're tired, too.
- [26:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
They're tired watching us and being in our Tasmanian Devil.
- [26:08]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yes, yes, it's contagious, but in the way that anhedonia is contagious, joy is contagious. So when I personally started slowing down, I literally, everyone who knew me, they were just like, there's something new about you. You look. You actually look like you age in reverse. And I was like, I slowed down.
- [26:26]
Farnoosh Torabi
What did you do? Tell me. I want to. I want a day in your life today versus, you know, before you even recognize that you had hfd.
- [26:34]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Oh, my goodness. So the moment I realized I had hfd, I was sitting at my desk giving a talk to a large hospital system. And it was during 2020, April 2020. And a lot of the people in the hospital system, they Were sending chat messages, like, I'm afraid of this virus. I can't go home to my loved one. What do I do? I felt the world's weight on my shoulders and I was on this talk and I was supposed to provide them skills, but then I was like, I felt like such an imposter because I'm like, I'm drowning.
- [27:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [27:03]
Dr. Judith Joseph
I'm showing up for my lab, I'm showing up for my then husband. I'm showing up for my small child, for my elderly parents. Like, I just felt the world on me and I just thought, well, if I'm feeling this way, if I'm putting on a brave face, I wonder how many people are hiding their pain behind a mask of pathological productivity. And so I think many of us are. You know, we feel like we don't want to let others down, but because we're letting ourselves down, we will eventually let everyone down, including ourselves. And that was when I had that moment, like, okay, the healers are not healed. But then I realized and I was wrong. I thought, you know, this is just a healthcare professional thing. I was absolutely wrong because I was speaking with lawyers and they felt that way. I was speaking with artists who perform, who go on gigs, and they are struggling, but they have to be, you know, all rainbows and sunshine. Right? A lot of us wear that mask. We're afraid to show what's really happening. But we are absolutely wrong. Because when we start asking for help, leaning on others, everyone else relaxes. They're like, I was just waiting. I was just waiting for you because you just seemed like you had it all figured out. I was just waiting to help you. You'd be surprised at how many people are just waiting for you to slow down so that you can be vulnerable and ask for help.
- [28:18]
Farnoosh Torabi
So today, how are you? Tell me, walk me through, like I want to know. Like, the manifestation of all of this.
- [28:26]
Dr. Judith Joseph
The old me would have been doing clinical research studies in my lab, while in between seeing private practice patients doing news on air interviews, like I am right now in front of my degrees with my white coat, chronically late to get home, right? And then feeling guilty as a mother because I didn't. I wasn't there enough for my daughter. And then not having a. Having a really difficult time falling asleep because of doom scrolling. Right, not eating the right things, just, you know, feeling depleted and doing a gazillion things that everyone else says they're great, but feeling like I didn't do enough. Right? That was the old me, the new me. Asked for help all the time. Like, I'm like, who is this girl hired? I hired a doctor to help me, which was again, a big deal for me because I'm someone with scarcity trauma. So I'm like, well, it's too expensive. What if, like, I have to pay these big salaries and then I won't be able to thrive. My lab has never been more successful. You know, like it's, it's with me doing less, right? And then really pouring into projects that I feel passionate about. Now I work with a lot of non profits where I give back to, you know, the younger generation, people who are underprivileged, who want to be in STEM careers. So pouring into causes that, that give me a sense of purpose that I didn't have time for before, right? Because I was too busy taking care of everyone else but myself and then spending more time with my daughter. Like, that's the. That for me is the priceless part of this all. Because I could tell you when I was in my high functioning AF ways, the guilt was overwhelming. I constantly felt like I was a bad mother, that I didn't deserve her. Right? And now I'm just like, wow, my daughter knows who I am. Like, we do so many things together. She wants to be a psychiatrist. That's what she calls it. She wants to be a psychiatrist, a model, a television presenter, like all these things, right? But I know her more, right? So doing less has made me show up where I want to be present more. And the anhedonia is not there anymore. That's the big thing for me, because I was a human doing instead of a human being.
- [30:38]
Farnoosh Torabi
I love, love, love what you say about seeking the priceless over the price tags. And because we're a financial podcast, I'd love to hear how this may manifest. Hfd, how does it manifest in your financial life? I can only imagine if you're going through this trauma, that it could really mess up your relationship to money as well. And money has its own trauma bag.
- [31:04]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yes. And in my book, I talk about the three risk factors for hfd, right? We went over trauma, went over anhedonia. The third is a doozy. It's called masochism. And a little secret I'll let you in on. You know, in the dsm, they decided, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for Psychiatry and Mental Health Conditions, they actually decided to take Masochistic Personality Disorder out because they felt that it was victim labeling. So many times, unfortunately in the past, if a woman was being abused or physically hurt, by her partner, she would get diagnosed as being masochistic or having masochistic personality disorder. So it was removed. However, little secret, a lot of psychiatrists still use masochistic personality traits in their diagnostic, you know, picture of a patient when they evaluate you. So I just thought, why are we like using this in our own code, but we're not like democratizing it. So I put it out there. And there are elements of masochistic personality disorder which are wrong, right? You shouldn't victim blame. You shouldn't say that this person incited, you know, certain things towards them, because that's not true. You know, good things, good, bad things happen to good people all the time and it's not their fault. But there were elements of masochistic personality disorder that I think, you know, we need to know about. You know, because many times we are people pleasing to a point of no return, right? We bend over backwards, we self sabotage, self sacrifice when we shouldn't because again, our roles, our identity, our. And we bleed for others who wouldn't even bleed for us. So I wanted people to realize that masochistic personality disorder, some of those traits are embedded in those with high functioning depression. Because why we put everyone else before us. Think about the doctor who hasn't gone to the bathroom in 10 hours because they're doing a surgery in the operating room, right? Or a nurse who hasn't really spent time with her family because she's showing up for patients. Or the teacher, the educator who's spending all her money on her, you know, student supplies because of lack of funding, but she can't even afford, you know, to take care of herself. Think about people who just like entrepreneurs who work, you know, 15 hours a day to make sure that their employees have benefits, but they are not even accessing their own benefits, right. These are people pleasing behaviors that, that are detrimental. And so think about these risk factors and try to, you know, examine what's happening within your own psyche. Why do you do these things that are hurting you, that are benefiting others? It's time to rethink that and to really uncover the trauma that led you to being masochistic. Yeah.
- [33:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
In your financial life. It could show up as we see it all the time, people prioritizing other people's financial well being over their own, especially women. You know, we tend to give so much up, even of our financial capability and ambitions because of other quote unquote roles and responsibilities that we feel we need to perform.
- [34:06]
Dr. Judith Joseph
And also the scarcity trauma, right? Like if you don't want to invest in yourself because you're afraid of never having again. That can show up that way. The masochism can show up as I don't want to pay for this because I can't afford it or it'll mean this when actually not doing it, not investing in yourself actually robs you of prosperity. And my therapist, I put this in the book, my therapist pointed that out that your masochism is contagious. So like you think it's only contained to you, but when you penny pinch on investing in yourself, it impacts your organization, it impacts your employees, it impacts your family. So you know that masochism can bleed and it is contagious as well.
- [34:48]
Farnoosh Torabi
Do you think this next generation, your daughter's generation for example, or even Gen Z, I think our kids are maybe Gen Alpha. So do you have more hope for that generation simply because they have more access to these tools? They'll have read your book. And I think also there is this. Maybe I'm just reading a lot of articles and making a hypothesis, but I sense that the younger generation, they're looking at their parents who are maybe suffering from high functioning depression. They're seeing their parents not being able to retire or achieving all the things and still not feeling fulfilled. That backlash. And so maybe in response to that, they're looking for the priceless over the price tags more than any other generation. I'm just curious as we part, you know, parting thoughts here. Your, your hopes for this next generation?
- [35:41]
Dr. Judith Joseph
I think so. I mean there's a large study that McKinsey did looking at one of the largest consumer populations and they compared the generations and they actually mentioned that the younger generations like Alpha, they do want more purpose, they want more experiences, they want more connection and they care less about the capitalistic, materialistic kind of values because they realize that their parents have suffered and you know, they don't feel as connected. And so. And I think Gen Alpha is better off across the board because now we know about the harmful effects of social media. And I treat children and adolescents as well as adults and so I think they are more protected and shielded because they have more information. So yeah, absolutely. I think we're trending hopefully towards more purpose and meaning and less price tags.
- [36:31]
Farnoosh Torabi
I can't wait for everyone to read your book Forward by Mel Robbins. So incredible. Dr. Judith Joseph, thank you so much for coming on so money. Your book is called High Functioning, Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim youm Joy. Thanks so much.
- [36:46]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Thank you for having me.
- [36:50]
Farnoosh Torabi
Thanks so much to Dr. Judith Joseph for joining us, check out her new book, High Functioning, Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim youm Joy. I'll see you back here on Wednesday. And I hope your day is so money foreign. You're a forward thinker. The only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward.
- [37:31]
Grainger
If you work in quality control at a candy factory, you know strict safety regulations come with the job. It's why you partner with Grainger. Grainger helps you find the high quality and compliant products your business needs to inspect, detect and help correct issues. And the sweetest part is everyone gets a product that's as safe to eat as it is delicious. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.