1811: The Future of Work: Why Employers Prefer AI Over College Grads

Summary

Podcast Summary: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi Episode 1811: The Future of Work: Why Employers Prefer AI Over College Grads
Release Date: April 9, 2025
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Dan Schabell, New York Times Bestselling Author and Managing Partner at Workplace Intelligence

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1. Introduction to the Future of Work

In Episode 1811 of So Money, host Farnoosh Torabi delves into a pressing issue reshaping the modern workforce: the increasing preference of employers for artificial intelligence (AI) over recent college graduates. Farnoosh introduces her guest, Dan Schabell, a workplace expert with over 15 years of experience tracking labor market trends. Together, they explore the implications of AI's rapid integration into various industries and its impact on new entrants to the job market.

2. AI's Rising Preference Over College Graduates

Dan Schabell presents alarming research indicating that employers are increasingly favoring AI solutions over hiring recent college graduates for entry-level positions. He remarks, “[07:08]...for every one job, there’s two people competing for it,” highlighting the intensifying competition exacerbated by AI capabilities.

Farnoosh probes the ramifications of this trend, questioning the stability of traditional career paths for new graduates. Dan emphasizes the dual threat AI poses: not only does it automate routine tasks, but it also encroaches upon soft skills like communication and critical thinking. “[02:18]... Right now employers are starting to prioritize more soft skills to things that can't easily be automated, right? But I would say in the future, honestly, I think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I never have thought of that.”

3. The Diminishing ROI of College Degrees

A significant focus of the discussion is the declining return on investment (ROI) for college degrees. Dan shares findings from a recent survey co-led with Hull International Business School, revealing that “77% of recent grads say they learned more on the job within six months than in their entire four-year education” ([06:04]). This statistic underscores a growing disconnect between academic curricula and real-world job requirements.

Moreover, nearly all employers surveyed expressed reluctance to hire recent graduates, with many preferring AI tools like ChatGPT ([07:08]). This trend raises critical concerns about the financial implications for students burdened with an average of $1.8 trillion in student loan debt and rising tuition costs.

4. Navigating Career Choices in an AI-Dominated Market

When asked for advice, Dan emphasizes the importance of adaptability and acquiring AI-related skills. He suggests, “[09:04]... perhaps a minor in a topic that's more relevant now could be beneficial.” Additionally, he advocates for internships, freelancing, and online courses to bridge the gap between education and employment.

Farnoosh highlights the complex decision parents face in guiding their children’s education amidst these uncertainties. She shares her own concerns about the future of the arts, acknowledging the challenges posed by AI but remains cautious about advising against creative pursuits entirely.

5. The Future of Higher Education

Dan discusses the transformative potential of AI on higher education. He envisions AI not just automating administrative tasks but fundamentally changing how students learn. “[10:24]...the demand for these AI skills, knowing how to partner with AI to accomplish tasks is only going to grow.” Colleges are under immense pressure to integrate technology into their curricula to enhance employability and maintain high placement rates.

Farnoosh critiques the escalating costs of private education, questioning the sustainability and ethical implications of exorbitant tuition fees. Dan concurs, labeling such pricing as “a crime” and emphasizing the necessity for educational institutions to adapt swiftly to remain relevant.

6. Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I) in the Evolving Workplace

The conversation shifts to DE&I, a topic currently embroiled in political and social debates. Dan provides a nuanced perspective, lamenting how DE&I initiatives have been weaponized and misunderstood. “[27:28]... DE&I has been weaponized for sure,” he states, highlighting the tension between genuine efforts to foster inclusive workplaces and the backlash from politicized misunderstandings.

Farnoosh and Dan discuss the historical benefits of DE&I, referencing a McKinsey study that links diversity to increased corporate profits and innovation. They express concern over the potential rollback of DE&I programs by major employers like Walmart, which could have detrimental effects on workplace morale and systemic inequality.

7. Identifying Jobs Safe from AI Automation

Addressing fears about widespread job displacement, Dan identifies sectors less susceptible to AI takeover. He points to blue-collar occupations such as plumbing, electrical work, and other hands-on trades. “[16:56]... There's not enough handyman, right?” Dan explains that roles requiring physical presence and problem-solving in dynamic environments remain resilient against automation.

Additionally, he highlights data analytics as a burgeoning field crucial for strategic decision-making across various departments. Acquiring skills in data and AI collaboration is posited as a viable pathway to job security. “[34:46]... data analytics is huge... Anything with AI.”

8. The Human Element and Future Optimism

Despite the challenges, Dan remains optimistic about human ingenuity and adaptability. He discusses the potential for a cultural backlash against excessive AI integration, akin to the resistance seen with AI in creative industries. Farnoosh supports this view, suggesting that authentic human interactions and creativity will retain their value.

Farnoosh concludes by reflecting on the importance of balancing technological advancements with human-centric approaches in both education and the workplace. She emphasizes the need for continuous learning and flexibility to thrive in an AI-driven economy.

9. Final Thoughts and Conclusions

The episode wraps up with Farnoosh expressing gratitude towards Dan for his insightful analysis and forward-thinking strategies. Both hosts acknowledge the critical juncture society faces in navigating the interplay between AI advancements and human employment. They underscore the importance of proactive measures in education and career planning to mitigate the adverse effects of AI on the workforce.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dan Schabell ([07:08]): “For every one job, there’s two people competing for it.”
• Dan Schabell ([02:18]): “I think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I never have thought of that.”
• Dan Schabell ([06:04]): “77% of recent grads say they learned more on the job within six months than in their entire four-year education.”
• Dan Schabell ([34:46]): “Data analytics is huge... Anything with AI.”

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Conclusion:

Episode 1811 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi offers a comprehensive examination of how AI is transforming the job market, particularly disadvantaging recent college graduates. Through Dan Schabell’s expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the urgent need for educational reforms, skill diversification, and proactive career strategies to navigate the evolving landscape. The discussion also highlights the complex interplay between DE&I initiatives and workforce dynamics, emphasizing the necessity for balanced and informed approaches to foster inclusive and resilient workplaces.

Transcript

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So Money Episode 1811 how to AI proof your job before it's too late.

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourselves. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.

Right now employers are starting to prioritize more soft skills to things that can't easily be automated, right? But I would say in the future, honestly, I Think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I never have thought of that.

Welcome to so Money, everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Would your boss prefer to hire artificial intelligence than you? According to new research, a growing number of employers say they'd prefer to automate entry level jobs than hire a recent college graduate. AI is changing the job market faster than any of us imagined, reshaping not just who gets hired, but whether certain jobs even exist in the future. My guest today is Dan Schabell. He's a New York Times bestselling author, workplace expert, and managing partner at Workplace Intelligence. He's. He's been tracking workplace Trends for over 15 years, advising companies on the future of work. And in his latest research, the results are kind of scary.

[Dan Schabell]

Not only are companies rethinking the value.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Of a college degree, but some are outright saying they'd rather hire ChatGPT. So what does this mean for us? Which jobs are actually safe from automation? And if you're in college right now or raising kids who might be one day, how do you ensure the education you receive actually pays off? Here's Dan Shabell. Dan Shabell, welcome back to so Money. It's been a minute and I'm so happy to have you here.

Absolutely. Finish. It's always a pleasure. Time flies. Of course, in the past year, you know, so many life circumstances, you've been busy, you've moved, situations have happened, you've.

Been busy, you've been busy professionally and also personally. You've become a dad. How has becoming a parent changed your perspective on work?

I think with one kid, it's still been pretty manageable. My wife and I both work remotely. She's about eight feet from me or so, but we have our own separate rooms and, you know, it's, we've figured it out because you have to. Right. And our son's in daycare, so, you know, we, we've created our own routines. And has it changed how I think about work or anything? No, I mean, I just think about childcare a lot more. And that's, you know, that's one of the bigger workplace issues, especially in Massachusetts where the cost of childcare is very high and access is low. So I think that childcare is a big thing and a lot of people have dropped out of the workforce, namely women, because of a lack of childcare in a post Covid world where, you know, more and more women and, you know, obviously men are forced to return to the office, which is another workplace trend, you know, Return to office is continues to be a massive, massive topic. I call it a Tier 2 topic because Tier 1 is AI cuts across all business.

So let's talk about these topics. You have been keeping your eye on the trends for your entire career. You know, you're someone who has a lot of understanding of not just what is happening in the workplace, but what is going to happen in the workplace. You have sort of this crystal ball maybe, but you work with a lot of companies to sort of get the questions answered. And one of the questions you recently went out to get answers to is, are college students getting a value for their degrees? What are college graduates saying about their degrees and what they learned in school and the application in the real world? And I want to start with this new survey that you co led which found that 77% of recent grads say they learned more on the job within six months than in their entire four year education. A lot of these students studied business and had hard skill. Hard skills.

What we found, we interviewed 800, you know, HR decision makers, HR leaders slash employers, and 800 employees. And we found that, you know, almost all recent college graduates regret their degree choice. And then 84% of those say that has affected their financial future. Of course, if you choose the wrong degree, some degree don't have as much ROI as others. And a lot of them just almost, you know, half feel doomed because of this wrong degree choice. That was a good portion of the study. But I mean, some of the other glaring stats, aside from the ones you said, is, you know, almost all employers are saying we don't even want to hire recent college graduates at all. Yeah, and I think that that's a big thing. And we also found that a good chunk of employers say that they would rather use or hire ChatGPT or AI over, over employing a grad. And so that, that was kind of our, our other headline, of course, because.

Are you terrified? Because I'm a little terrified right now.

I think it's lack of workplace preparation. And I also think the part that's also terrifying would be the automation of entry level jobs, especially in certain sectors. And I think that that's kind of a call to arms. And, and right now employers are starting to prioritize more soft skills to things that can't easily be automated.

[Dan Schabell]

Right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

But I would say in the future, honestly, I think a lot of these soft skills will be automated by AI as well. And I, I never have thought of that. And there has been a separate study that came out several months ago that says, you know, employers value the soft skills like we found as well. Almost 100% said communication, willing to learn, collaboration, creativity, critical thinking. But I think as AI continues to improve and be elevated and get smarter, you might rather brainstorm with AI than your colleague, potentially. So I think the things that we thought could not happen are slowly going to happen to a point where we're not even going to be thinking about it. And thus I think that it's going to get harder and harder as a recent college graduate to get a job. Yet at the same time, as you know, it's like $1.8 trillion of student loan debt, right? The cost of going to school goes up 2 to 6% a year. So if the cost keeps going up and this, the loans keep going up, yet it keeps getting harder to get a job because there are fewer jobs and those, the skills you need are changing and colleges can't keep up. We have a huge, huge crisis on our hands. So that's like the bigger picture of what's going on.

So let's say you're in college right now or you are a recent grad. We don't want this news to completely deflate you. What would be your advice to someone right now? I mean, you need to pay off those loans. You need to get out there and make an impact and make money. How do you do that? Obviously got to learn AI, but what else is there to it?

It is hard to give general advice because everyone's in a unique financial like aid situation and what people can afford and, and also like you could be or have a college senior as a son or daughter versus, you know, someone who's a freshman. And if you're a freshman, you probably still get freshman or sophomore, you probably still get to choose your major. So this should affect your major choice. But you know, if you're a senior, let's say, and you're already in this major, I mean, if you can do a minor in, you know, a topic that's more relevant now, that could be benefic or unfortunately, like outside of work, nights and weekends, you should learn some of these new skills. And you know, a lot of these skills can be learned through either freelancing or through online courses or finding people who have those skills and trading something with those individuals, like you have certain skills, they need certain skills and vice versa. And you, you form a kind of a partnership or a mentorship opportunity.

So is AI going to be the ultimate disruptor to college as we know it? Do you think that university presidents and board of trustees Are they going to listen to any of this and adjust the way that they're approaching academia?

Well, in the early days of when AI was being rolled out and students were using it to write papers and all of that, I feel like a lot of colleges and schools push back and they said you're not allowed to use AI. But now I think that things are drastically changing and our survey actually focused on that aspect as well. With a lot of college graduates know that using AI would help them become more efficient, more innovative, improve their decision making and advance their career so that the students value it. And they think that AI is just going to disrupt almost every profession in the next one to two years. We found 86% said that. So I think that, you know, between that and then employers demanding these type of skills with like almost 100% saying that it's important to have these new hires with a foundation in technology skills, namely AI and data analytics, I just think if you connect all the dots, that the demand for these AI skills, knowing how to partner with AI to accomplish tasks is only going to grow. And I mean, AI and you know, future technologies could be so disruptive that it changes how people are learning in the classroom, how much time they spend in the classroom. There's so many aspects to it that that could evolve over time. But colleges for sure know that if they want their students employed and that's their big metric. You know, if you want to get rank high on the US News list, which is the most important thing to these colleges.

Right.

Unfortunately, that is by far the most important. They'll do anything to get higher on that list is you need to equip them with the skills so they get hired so your placement rates are higher or stay the same. Because if those start dropping, then the ROI of those schools does, and therefore it's going to be harder to get higher on those lists. Especially that new Wall Street Journal list that came out, what, last year, where it ranked schools based on ROI basically for their degrees. And you know, it's going to be harder. Those schools are going to have a tough time because it's going to be harder to recruit and because there's so many schools and with the expense of going to those schools constantly increasing, the schools that are not performing at the highest level, they're not Ivy League or they're not yielding enough, you know, a high enough placement rates, they're going to just go under because no one's going to take out, you know, I was calculating, I don't know if I don't know if you've ever done this before, but like, obviously I just had a kid, so I'm, you know, 529 plans, everything. So I'm looking at what is the cost of college for four year private school in 18 years and $730,000.

Forget it.

You have to save, you have to save $18,000 a year for those 18 years. About almost those 18 years to be able to do it. And that's like the, I guess you could say that's the most expensive situation you get yourself into because obviously they can go to public and it won't.

Be as high as that, but AKA AKA the dumbest. Who is going to pay that? I mean, unless you're just bankrolling that and you've got 800,000 more dollars a day coming in, that is, it's, it's a crime that that is even an asking price. But those who are paying it should know better. Right? Like that's just, you're, you're entering a fraudulent, corrupt deal at that.

Correct. But the, there's always this but and there's been so many articles that are like, you know, is a degree worth it? And the reality is as of now, if you don't have a college degree, you'll still earn less in your lifetime. I mean that's still.

I also think college is a gateway to meeting people who can help you advance in your career. And also not just in your career, like in your personal development life. It's a, it's not just where you go to learn about chemistry or, you know, finance. It's where you learn how to be a leader potentially or you know, you learn about people skills or the social skills that you didn't necessarily build in high school. You learn about yourself, you get to maybe travel abroad. So there are these other benefits to going to college. You did this survey in partnership with Hull International Business School. Tell me about Hull and why they were interested in these, these questions. They're, they seem to be like an untraditional model for college and grad school.

Yeah, they were especially interested in doing this survey obviously to get their name out there alongside other big colleges that are more well known. I think that their offering is really embedded into the survey focus about, you know, these soft skills, business skills, being able to hit the ground running the second you start your job. That's a huge area of focus. So obviously with the headline and that you named earlier on about college graduates learning so much in just six months in their job, then their entire four year education, but what if you could start your job and get up to speed in a month instead of six months? Right. And so the average person, if you think about a fully productive employee, it takes about six months, takes a long time. And so there's definitely an incentive for an employer to want someone to get up to speed quicker. Now, of course there's variables like networking within the company as being part of that training, but I'm, I'm talking about the foundational skills that are important for being able to adapt to a workplace situation and thrive earlier rather than later. And because like the no one's got patience anymore. You could start a job and if you're not performing within those six months, you could lose your job. And I think that'll happen more in the future because again, it's like, is this person performing? No. Okay, we'll let go. I mean, you see it happening with the big tech companies like Meta. You know, it's back to the Jack Welch error, right? Neutron Jack, you know, cut in the bottom percentage of employees. And in Meta's case, I believe it was 5%. But you know, I think Jack Welch was 20%, truthfully. So I just think that there's going to be more pressure on people to get up to speed. And so having those type of business skills, life skills, is going to be really important, not just at work, but outside of work, which I think is really critical because, you know, I think actually think from a soft skill perspective. And of course communication is king. But I think being able to think critically in today's society is really important.

I also think if you can fix an H vac system, if you can clean a pool, if you can solve for plumbing issues, you can see where I'm going. These blue collar jobs are where private equity is investing. Knowing that AI is going to take a lot of the kind of hard and soft skill jobs, frankly. You're saying, you know, that at the end of the day there's not really an AI that can respond to, you know, the fact that your home is falling apart and you need someone to get in there and restructure. Right.

So, so there's not enough handyman, right? You have no idea. It's been insane to try and get a handyman for the house. Like so, like, seriously, like, will a handyman respond to my calls? Like, unbelievable.

I have been texting and calling this electrician. I don't know why, I just keep going after this one electrician, but he's the best and I don't want, you know, anyone subpar. Dealing with my electrics in my house. But in any case, I want to learn from you. Where are some of these silver linings or these other opportunity hubs for people that are looking to frankly stay employed? And you know, AI, it's changing things very quickly. It's not even like in the next 10 years. Like, they just want to make sure they have a job in the next five years, especially those who are young. Because I think you're more vulnerable, right. As a young person without work experience that you. To your point, AI Catch 22. Yeah. They can very easily, you know, replicate or do what they, you would be hired to do.

You want to get a job, you already have to get a job. Like, I knew that when I was, I was in college. I'm like, okay, well the first internship's going to be the hardest to get. And then, you know, my dad helped me get my first, like one or two internships and then I leveraged those to get several more. But I also think even, you know, even your first job, it's like, where's your work experience? Well, right. You haven't already had work experience, then it's gonna be hard to get that job. But the whole point of, you know, your college degree is to help you get that job, but you're not getting the work experience unless you're able to get those internships or do freelancing. So I think that this, that's massive. Catch 22 is what makes it very, very difficult to compete in the job market as well. But that's always been the case. So I think it's just a supply and demand situation right now where, you know, LinkedIn's chief economist came out and I don't know if I fully believe this, but they said for every one job, there's two people competing for it. It feels like a lot more from a ratio perspective. But I mean, it's just, but in a sense, it's just not enough jobs for people to take. But on the other hand, as you're alluding to, the it's Gen Z has been named the tool belt generation. I'm sure you saw headlines regarding that because they're looking at corporate, corporate America and saying, well, I don't know if I want the same career as my parents. And they're not stable because they saw the hundreds of thousands of, you know, tech workers who are getting six figures and cushy jobs, not doing that much work actually. And a lot of them had admitted that publicly. Then they lost their jobs. So they're like, oh, companies aren't going to take care of me. But you know, there's, there's a low supply, high demand for all these, you know, plumbers, electricians, maybe I do that. So yeah, I think that, I think that makes sense. But at the same time, you know, you could go back in time and be like, oh, I wish I was a plumber. Because obviously, like, you'd never have to worry about, you know, my Persian parents.

Would be so disappointed in me.

At the same time I, I talked to our plumber about that and he's like, yeah, this is, there's, there's also not just, you know, a low demand of people doing this. Even though it's lucrative and stable, it's hard work. Like it is injured on the job, like it ain't. It's not. It sounds easy to say, to recommend, you know, a recent, you know, a young person, hey, be a plumber. But it's a whole different thing for them to go to trade school and then from them to actually doing it, it's, it's a pretty, pretty big leap.

[Dan Schabell]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah, and we don't appreciate it as I alluded to like you know, culturally in growing up as an Iranian.

But I, I'm amazed by it now. Like I, I watch them do it. I'm like, wow. Because it's so, the way I, I always say it, it's like it's so far removed from what I do on a daily basis sitting in front of this computer that I, it's like amazing, you know, I could never even think of doing what they do.

Well, let's talk a little bit more about the other, as you call them, you know, top tier issues. We're obviously talking right now about AI and its impact on the workforce, on its impact on college education, universities. What else do you know? You talked a little bit in the beginning about workplace hybrid. You know, you're working from home. What's the future there telling you?

Well, so AI obviously tier A, I call it a tier A topic which means it has the most demand, the most news coverage, the most innovation, the most, most, you know, people who are interested in, you know, reading content about it, et cetera. Like, but I think tier B, Tier B is about work environment, hybrid work, return to office. That continues to be a huge trend. Why? Because during COVID a fourth of desk workers who had never worked remote in their whole lives, work remote for the first time. And a lot of them enjoyed it, right? Because they got freedom and flexibility. They could better manage their responsibilities. Childcare, all these different things. And cut on commuting costs. Meeting cost is an average of like 55 a day. When you take into account gas and food. Those are the two primary costs. And now a lot of companies, because the pendulum has swung so at a high level from an econ economic standpoint, the pendulum swung. Employers have leverage. Employees don't like. It was very different, you know, one to two years ago where employees had the leverage. And so employers are like, hey, we have this office space. We're spending a lot of money on it. You know, cities are like, you know, we need to incur it. We will give you tax subsidies if you can get people back into these cities so that people spend money at these restaurants and the barber shops, et cetera. Companies want more control. You know, it's very Big Brother. They want to make sure people are clocking in. That's why there's a whole trend of like coffee badging, people going to the office, getting a coffee and then badging out. Right, right, right. Just to say that they are. So I think this trend every single time a big company, like more recently, Goldman Sachs says we want people back in the office. Obviously financial services, you're much more likely to get return to office mandates because it's from a cultural standpoint and because some of that work is better. You know, it's, it's more easy done in terms of what the, the work they're offers. I think every single time that happens, it's just going to be back in the news. And I think that people are very emotional about it because even these federal workers that have to go back to the office, a lot of the times it's a layoff strategy. You know, it's back in the day. From a historical standpoint, Yahoo and Best Buy were two of the big companies early on. We're talking like way over a decade ago when I was first, you know, focused on this, they had previously had a, like fully remote, you know, for many positions. And then they said, no, you know, we have a new CEO and the CEO wants us back in the office. But it was also a layoff strategy, you know, in disguise. And so a lot of people were very upset about that because again, it's like you get this freedom, flexibility. Now your company's taking it away from you and it's very personal. So that, that to me is a massive topic, obviously. DE and I, yeah, what's going on here? Huge topic.

I mean, I just interviewed the chief Human resource officer at PwC. This was for a separ podcast I'm producing with iHeart. Stay tuned everybody. It's called Leading by Example. And she obviously cares deeply about DE and I and is very actively implementing the strategies and the thought leadership around this in her practice at work. And I said, there's a PR crisis happening with DE and I right now. And you know, part of what she thinks is the problem is that companies are very short term solution oriented and maybe some of the strategies that they implemented post 2020 didn't work or didn't have like the results that they wanted. But they a, may have implemented the wrong strategies and B, maybe weren't patient enough to like, this isn't, you know, this isn't transactional work. You know, this is work that takes in some cases years to sort of make an impact and, and see the benefits. And so I would love to hear from you, like, what do you think are some of the misunderstandings or like the narrative around D and I that why is it so negative? And, and where are we, what are we missing?

Yeah, so this, this has been a very big topic, obviously from a gender, ethnicity, sex, age, race perspective. I mean those are, those are the big ones, especially race and gender, I would say. I mean there was an article that came out today, we're, we're doing a massive study on DE and I, just so, you know, and so it's, it's a such a politicized topic that it's like you just have to be really careful around it. But yeah, CBS News article. What has DE and I, diversity, equity, inclusion done for U.S. workers and employers? Like, it is a crazy headline. Why? Because D and I, it's not like, you know, people just started talking about this a week ago. Like this has been around since before I even got into this, I think. Right. Like, or it was called something different. Like it's always been a thing. And I think, you know, obviously the new, the new Administration has had a huge impact on it because there's now legal ramifications and penalties around dei. And I think what you're seeing is people, you're seeing some companies like Costco saying, we're keeping our DE and I programs, Costco as you as, you know, like, I think it's like a 95% renewal on memberships. Like, Great company. Love that. I was just there this morning. Great company. And that's what they want to do. Whereas you're seeing other companies like, you know, Walmart go back on it. Among other companies again, these are just. Walmart's the biggest employer. So that made the biggest news you could imagine, right? They have like the biggest workforce. So, yeah, I think, I think this topic is, is, is definitely a tough one because I think it's maybe misunderstood, but potentially on purpose misunderstood. Right. And the, the whole idea behind DE&I is that, you know, if there's two people who are equally qualified, you can't just choose the white dude over the female Latino because they have the same skin color as you. Right. Like, I think that that's, that's really what we're talking about here is, is you need to be an equal opportunity employer. But now you get penalized for doing that, which is going to have massive ramifications across the workforce. So, yeah, it's, in my opinion, it's, it's disappointing and it's, I, it's been weaponized for sure. And I think that, I think it sends the message that, you know, the, some of the companies that always believed in it will, will try to continue with it within legal bounds. And then other ones that were just doing it to do it for maybe publicity or whatnot, will drop it, which is what you've seen. But I think the big thing with De and I that people forget is, I don't know, 15 years ago, like a long time ago. I always. Time goes by so fast. I'm just gonna, let's just say a long time ago, McKinsey came out with that famous de and I study that said, you know, if you support DE and I, and you know, from a gender and a race perspective, it will increase corporate profits, you know, be good for productivity, it'll be good for morale, it's good across the board. And so that was a seminal study that I'm still talking about to, to this day that showed that, hey, this is good for creativity, collaboration, productivity, profits. Like this is good for companies. Right? And so I think, you know, between that and then now, companies kind of, you Know, because of the political climate, taking a stance back, it's like, what is that going to do to the future innovations of companies and morale and, and systemic racism and all these different things. So it's, it's a very, very tough topic. But that's my lens on it. Yeah, well, and I don't, I don't really share it too publicly, like, but for you, like, that's my, that's my overarching view of, of the topic, the different sides of the topic and, and how could impact the workforce moving forward.

Yeah, yeah. So final two questions. There still have to be people who get hired by corporate in the future. AI is not going to replace every single job.

[Dan Schabell]

Right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So what are the jobs that are safe?

Well, I think what's crazy, I always use this example and it's really scary. But if you think about it, let's just say you're the CEO of. I don't. Not even Microsoft. McDonald's the dream. Not even the CEO micro. The shareholders of McDonald's. The dream really from the capitalism perspective is no workers. No workers means no liability. Potentially. Potentially. It depends how well the machines operate. Obviously it means no labor unions. It means no one demanding higher pay. It means, it means that, you know, there's a more of a fixed cost on labor, you know, more predictable fixed costs. I mean, obviously machine upgrades. But you're not thinking about minimum wage, you're not thinking about any of that. You're not thinking about employee benefits, injuries on the job. You don't have to worry about any of that. And thus your profits are going to soar. Right. But you know, what's the, you know, they tested a McDonald's, like all robot McDonald's in Texas and it didn't go so well. And so it's actually led to more human hiring, which I think is pretty fascinating. But in the future that might change. And maybe, maybe these robots at, you know, fast food restaurants get so good that the customer is like, I'd rather have that. I mean, you see it at airports. You see, there was an airport in Seattle I went to years ago where, you know, you could get your order done by a human or there's a kiosk next to it. And I was just watching as that, you know, percentage of people who would go to the human versus the kiosk, and it was about 50, 50 split. But you know, maybe that's just to kind of start changing behavior so more people use the kiosk. Super interesting stuff. But I think that that is, what's that's the bigger danger. And then those service jobs are the summer jobs of kids.

Yeah.

People who are, you know, teenagers. Those are jobs that are being taken from them, which therefore, you know, impact their future jobs potentially or their, their ability to make money to pay off school or whatever it might be. So I think that, that that's kind of the negative thing. And then the positive thing is, yeah, I see a lot of opportunity. I just got off a call with an executive yesterday. Yeah, data analytics is huge. So the more you understand how to assimilate data and use it for strategic decision making, the better, whether it's for hr, finance, whatever it might be. So, so yeah, that's how I think about it. It's part. What. Part of what attracted me to doing research studies instead of, you know, other types of projects is they show me the data. The data is the king, I think, moving forward. And so if the more you're able to attach yourself to data that's relevant for your. For your company, the better. And yeah, I mean, there's a ton of data analytics courses that can be very useful for doing that. Yeah, of course, Anything with AI. But I would say, I would say data analytics from HR perspective, people analytics would be. Would definitely be a good path to go in because it affects everything. Every job, every company.

Yeah.

And companies are just in the infancy of being able to leverage data. And I see that. That becoming something that gets further adopted and, and elevated in the future. Also, I. You've seen, I don't know if you've seen marketing roles over the years. I mean, it's changed. You know, these marketing roles are called like, it's like revenue marketing. So.

Right.

So more so if you think about positions in the workplace, more of them are touching money, more of them are touching revenue. And I think that if, regardless of what you choose, like, figure out how to touch revenue somehow, whether you're in sales, whether you're in marketing, whatever you're trying to do, I think that's, that's gonna be really important because that further helps you justify your job. And it's, it's kind of always been like that. But I now, now with the prolification of data and the pressure to grow, as you've seen the stock market, like, the pressure to grow is insane. Like, even companies that, you know, this past, this week, you're seeing all the earnings come out, even the companies that, you know, hit their numbers, like, if they're not growing like tenfold for the next year, their stock goes down. So the pressure to grow is so extreme. And so for you, as a professional, it's like, okay, what can I do to help this company grow their revenue?

Just pursue the arts. My kids are just 10 and 7, but my son wants to be maybe a director of. He loves movies. And my daughter wants to perform. I don't know. She loves to sing, she loves to dance. I know this will all change, but I'm not dissuading them, because although I'm saving for them in five to nine plans, I'm like. I'm telling my son. I'm like, you know, there's, like, you can go to film school. And I think those applications are. Are still sound. And so as a dad now and a parent, you are talking a little bit about, you know, the $900,000 you're gonna need for college in 18 years. But what are your thoughts about school? And when the time comes, what are the conversations you think you'll be having with your. With your kid about, you know, their higher ed and getting an roi?

That's a killer question, Farnesh, because I do think about it, and I'm worried.

I know you do.

[Dan Schabell]

I know.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

What do you think about these things?

I'm definitely worried because the arts. I just think. I think the arts are always going to get even harder and harder and harder and more for Nepo babies. I mean, yeah, like, you saw what was like, Vanny Fair, or you're one of those big, you know, media magazines, People magazine, they came out and they're like, here are the biggest Nepo baby. Like that article. I mean, it's always kind of been true, but now it's, like, right in your face to a point where if I see, you know, for instance. Oh, God, what's her name? The one who opened for Taylor Swift, who's now massive.

Oh, yeah, Abrams.

Abrams, right. That's J.J. abrams daughter. So everyone's like, oh, she's amazing. She's raising. I'm like, okay. Like, you know, J.B. j. Abrams is like, you know, Taylor, I'll let you be in the next Star wars film. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I just. I don't know, like, talented and everything, you know, and Taylor and Taylor Swift, like, obviously, she's talented and, you know, maybe she could have made it on her own, but certainly help that they. She came from a wealthy family. It's just the truth right now. Obviously, I'm not. I don't want to, you know, downgrade her, but, you know, there's a lot of talented people, but because they don't come from privilege or their parents aren't already famous. Like a far news. Like, it's very hard. It's very hard. And so it's. Yeah, I don't know, is it, Is it, hey, pursue this, but also like, have a backup plan. Like, so I'm still thinking. I don't have the direct answer because I am worried about the future of entertainment and the arts. I just think that it's going to constantly get harder. I just don't know that path as well as I know the more traditional corporate path.

But I know humans, we know human beings. And whenever there's something new and powerful like AI that gets introduced to our culture, there is this like all in mentality. And then I do wonder if we're going to get to a point in our culture, not anytime soon, but where there will be an aversion to it and the pendulum is going to swing the other way and we're going to want to go back to appreciating and supporting the humans who can write and who can teach things that maybe AI can teach. But we want it from a human because we've been so. We've gone so far on the deep end with AI that there's going to be like a cultural backlash to it. I do wonder if that's going to be part of the history.

Just adding to that point. You saw all the backlash when they had AI as part of a movie or part of a movie trailer. I forgot which one it was and it happened last year and people were so upset by it. So I don't think AI in movies and, and streaming shows has like even close to being perfected or anything like that. So I mean, I don't think that's anytime soon. But again, like, I just think like a nephil. If Netflix didn't have to have actors if you know that if they did it, if they didn't, there's a reason they still have actors and actresses, but if they didn't, they wouldn't use them. You know what I mean? So that it ends up being like a capitalism thing. It's like, well, these actors, there's still opportunities as long as.

Well, that's why we had the strike for so long. Right, exactly.

That was a very important strike.

It was very, very important. Yeah. And I'm so glad that they got, I think at least some or many of their of their concessions.

I've interviewed a lot of people who are celebrities or, you know, executives in the Hollywood area or in Hollywood, and some of the advice that they said is, hey, like, obviously not everyone's going to make it as an actor, actress, musician, all this stuff. But think about how you can play a role. Like if you really like the industry, think of how you can play a role in the industry outside of being an actor, actress or whatever. Musician, you know, and so there, there's definitely other opportunities because it's not like, you know, someone shoots a movie and it's a director, writer, you know, and actors and actresses. Like there's so many other positions to make that happen.

Yeah. Well, Dan, I could talk to you for another hour or week and I'm just so glad we were able to catch up. It's always so informative and insightful to have you on the show. Thank you for all of your forecasts and your strategies for us. We're at a critical time and I think it's important to be asking hard questions and in some cases rethinking your approach to work and even school. Hang in there with, with your 9 month old. I know now soon they'll, he'll be crawling, he'll be walking. So.

Oh God, let's not get, let's not jump the gun here. We just started walking like a few days ago, step by step.

Dan Shabell, thank you so much.

Thanks for your show. I appreciate it.

Thanks so much to Dan for joining us. I have a link to his study in our show notes and I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnoosh. I hope your day is so money.

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