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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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- [01:54]
Grace L. Williams
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnush yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.
- [02:20]
Unnamed Guest
But it goes to show you that money transcends a lot of things, right? So you don't necessarily need to have feminist leanings to say I would like to know how I'm going to be at the end of the month financially. I would like to know how to invest. I would like to get an access to a line of credit. I would like to start a business right this touches everything and transcends so much.
- [02:45]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Welcome back to Sew Money, everybody. I'm your host, Farnish Tarabi. Imagine being denied a credit card, a mortgage or a business loan, not because you have bad credit, but because you're a woman. Not in the 1800s, but as recently as the 1970s. A lot of us in the audience were born in the 1970s. It sounds unthinkable, but this was the harsh reality for millions of women in America. And so today we're going to get into this extraordinary story of defiance and determination. How a group of bold women in Denver turned financial discrimination into a catalyst for change. Not by going out there and getting themselves some personal loans. They founded the first women owned bank in the country and our guest knows all about it because she's researched it and she's wrote a book about it. Grace L. Williams is here. She's a trailblazing financial journalist whose work has appeared in Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, and Harvard Business Review. Grace brings her signature clarity and depth to her new book. It's called Give her the Untold Account of a Woman's bank that Empowered a Generation. And if you are in the Montclair area, New Jersey, Grace and I will be at the Watchong Booksellers store later this month. I have the link in our show notes if you'd like to reserve and join us. So this book called Give Her Credit. It tells the riveting story of the Women's bank of Denver, founded in 1978 by pioneers including Carol Greene and B. Larae Aurelian. In an era when women couldn't even get a loan without a male co signer, this bank became a radical act of financial empowerment and a powerful symbol of what women can build when they back each other. I'm so excited for you to meet the brilliant Grace L. Williams. Welcome to the show, Grace.
- [04:38]
Unnamed Guest
Oh gosh, thanks for having me. So excited to be here.
- [04:41]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Your book came out in January. It has over 1000 reviews on Amazon. I think double that on Goodreads. It is making waves through the literary world. Your book captures this story. These, what do we call them, hidden figures, so to speak. We've learned about them in industries like space and technology and engineering. But in finance, we have so much more to learn. Why do you think it's become such a popular read?
- [05:13]
Unnamed Guest
So I was not expecting to receive receive the type of feedback and response that this book is getting. Honestly, I feel as a writer and a human being, I'm a bit obscure in the finance world, if you will. So Part of what I think is contributing to the glow up we're seeing here with it is that when I sat down to really edit the original manuscript, I knew I wanted it to be almost like a beach read in approach and intake. I think when you go into a finance or a history book, or even a feminism book or a justice book, if you will, often it's not presented in a way that feels beach read. Like, and I really hemmed and hawed for a while about how much technicality do we bring to it and then how much fun do we bring to it, how many sprinkles do we put on the cupcake, basically? And I wanted it to be something that a book club would look at and say, okay, we don't know how we feel about this, but let's just give it a try. Let's check it out. Let's judge the book by the COVID and see, and then be pleasantly surprised that not only did you get a bunch of history and a bunch of finance, but you met these incredible women who I got so lost in their stories. And a lot of people said they also felt that way. They related to certain people in the book. And so I think it was making these concepts a little more tangible and fun. And writing the book I wanted to read when I was learning about these things too.
- [06:52]
Farnoosh Tarabi
It is cinematic. You wrote for the visual medium as well as the written word. I think that's also very special when you can do that, especially in this genre, as you say. Now, this story takes us back to the 70s, and so while that's not ancient history, it's still a bit of work. Especially also, you're on the East Coast. Denver is where this took place. You did a lot of traveling to Denver, or maybe just a few visits, but very intense.
- [07:21]
Unnamed Guest
Yes.
- [07:22]
Farnoosh Tarabi
To get these stories. Tell me about that process and how you ultimately uncovered this tale.
- [07:29]
Unnamed Guest
So some of the original founders were very keen to talk about the story of how they came together and put this bank together. The thing that was the tough part for me was, so you're sitting across from a woman in her 80s, maybe early 90s, and you say to her, okay, so tell me, what's your story? Right. This is the classic journalists. We know this very well. You say, tell me what's your story? And I would often get sort of the resume of, I've accomplished this, I went to this college, I did this and I did this. And so as much as that's impressive, and it absolutely is, given the obstacles they face, these were absolutely trailblazers and pioneers, like you say, going back and saying, okay, but who are you as a person? What are some things that shaped you? What are some things that drove you? And what's your favorite color? Even that kind of stuff that was a little bit tougher to glean. And that's where a lot of my extra trips came in. Sitting with these women and even researching them. A little backstory is that I got my book deal in late 2019. My advance check cleared in January 2020. I did two research trips. One to Sarasota to meet with Carol Green, who was a founder. Her living room was the backdrop for the first meetings. And one to Denver to the public library, where the archives sits, of all these banks things. And it's a hard copy archive. So I came back from that Denver trip March 12th of 2020, with about a third of what I needed in my possession at the time, and really had to sit on what I had for such a long time because the world shut down and I wasn't moving until things were safer, if you will. So part of what I did in my spare time, if you will, because, you know, I'm homeschool, teaching my kid on Zoom and all that stuff, too. I did research on the side, and I looked at old newspapers, and I looked at Denver Post archives and found stories about some of these women from their hometowns. I found information from the Stanford School paper about one of the women. And so we could have some of those conversations over the phone and on the side, but they were much better in person. So once the world moved again, I was able to meet with people again. But it took many takes to get to the personalities that you see, because a lot of them wanted to talk about the bank and little aspects of their lives. But going into that deeper story, that took time, and we built trust. I really believe that.
- [10:10]
Farnoosh Tarabi
What did you love most about these women? And I'm curious if you think that the personalities that they have. I guess what I want to find out is, could this happen again in 2020 for five? Obviously, we have more of a liberated financial system, but just we're also living in a time when we feel like a lot of our rights are on the chopping block. And we are entering, I think, a new, another era of resistance and protest and fighting. Good fight. A lot of us feel like we don't have it in us. We're tired. We can't be those women that were in the 70s, that were the trailblazers. But tell us about why it's still possible. Did you feel like you have these connections to women today in your life.
- [10:55]
Unnamed Guest
I would say yes, and I would also say no. And the reason for the no is this. A lot of who put this thing together in the 70s, they didn't have friendships necessarily. Some of them were chums and they're still very chummy. But a lot of them came from very different backgrounds and different perspectives and they felt, okay, we have one common goal and that is we support this idea and we want to see it through. And they were not as corrective of each other as I think sometimes we can be with each other now. Meaning if you had. So some were Republican, some were Democrat. That needs to be spelled out. And I think we have to also say in the 70s you had more Republican women who felt like liberation mattered to them and they were supportive of it very vocally. You had a lot of mouthpieces that would do that. And we don't really have that at this moment. I have friends who I grew up with who are much more conservative than I am and in more conservative environments who have read the book a couple and they appreciate it. There are others who won't touch it with a ten foot pole. And it's because of our differences, I think of opinion.
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Farnoosh Tarabi
We have differences of what is their issue.
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Unnamed Guest
Me just my political stuff.
- [12:15]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Oh, not so much that we have a. These women fought for equal rights in banking.
- [12:22]
Unnamed Guest
Exactly. It has little to do with that and more to do with just the relationships that we have.
- [12:27]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I'm so glad you pointed that out because I do think that in a. We're in a time of great divide and I think it's. We're coming around to this more and more, but we are realizing that we cannot build the society in the world that we want with such polarization and division. We need to cross the aisles skills, so to speak. And I think in the 70s you're right, that would. Yes, we had differing politics back then too, but it didn't stop us from working together to create solutions that benefited everybody. That still could happen. Yeah, I think that's a great model for how we could today make some really important changes. Tell me about how these women did it. Like how do they actually do this? Build a bank in the 70s? And were they part of the women's lib movement? Was this part of the greater movement that was happening in the backdrop which was women's lib and even before that civil rights.
- [13:27]
Unnamed Guest
So some absolutely were die hard feminists who really felt this needed to be a feminist statement, a feminist bank but not everybody was, which surprised me, too, because I definitely would pigeonhole or stereotype like, oh, obviously, if it's women working for change in the 70s, it's a bunch of feminists, right? Not necessarily, which was an interesting sidebar. But it goes to show you that money transcends a lot of things, right? So you don't necessarily need to have feminist leanings to say, I would like to know how I'm going to be at the end of the month financially. I would like to know how to invest. I would like to get an access to a line of credit. I would like to start a business. Right? This touches everything and transcends so much. And I think that was part of what gave them the juice that they had, was they understood, okay, we don't all have to agree in our lives about everything. We agree that money, there's an injustice here. Money is being gendered, and we are going to do something about this together. And the way they found each other is so fascinating. So Carol Green, who started this first meeting in her living room, she was an entrepreneur and a businesswoman, married children, et cetera. And she teamed up with a single mother who was a nurse and had. Was writing a book about abortion at the time. And she, I want to say, was with the national organization for Women. So you couldn't have had two more kind of opposite characters saying, we agree that this. We need to look into this and see what we can do. And they went to their respective networks and said, we're thinking about doing this. Would anyone want to come to a meeting? And that's how it all began and skyrocketed. They had a couple of women who were socialites, who were really good fundraisers, who brought in their friends, certainly not necessarily what you think of as like a national organization for women members, if you will, coming in their furs and their sables and whatever, and rather, because they cared about this. And so it was a hodgepodge group that found each other. They pooled the resources that they had. And Carol Green, especially in the very beginning, went to her male banker to say, how do you do this? What do you suggest? And he took her pretty seriously and so explained what you need to do. And it's built from the ground up. And by the time they really started to get momentum, they then had Judy Foster, who's now Judy Wagner, and she was in finance and able to really help them figure out some of the things that needed to be smoothed out to really found what became Women's Bank.
- [16:21]
Farnoosh Tarabi
We should Note that in 1974 there was a new law that provided women with equal credit opportunity. It was called the Equal Credit Opportunity act, that then sort of reversed the laws of saying you need to have a husband or a father cosign you need your credit card loans, et cetera. But a lot of banks were not adhering to this and it wasn't yet something that the masses knew about. And so what were some of the laws in existence that helped them even do this? That they weren't so much writing new laws, they were working within the existing framework in a radical way, in a new way. But there were like there was momentum legally behind them, so to speak.
- [17:08]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, so that's definitely an important distinction. The Equal Credit Opportunity act came in and it was supposed to really level the playing field. And a lot of banks, so I believe it was 74, it was signed. But then you have a grace period, if you will, of time before it's really implemented. And within that time frame, these women said, if you're not going to recognize the law, then we're just going to do what we need to do because we still have these needs that you're not recognizing. So there was certainly a boys club bank mentality where they kind of treated women like the little misses or whatever still, even though on the books they were supposed to follow the law. And so rather than go and file a complaint or rather than go and try to change it from within, the attitude was, we'll just do it our own way. Yeah, this is wasting everyone's time. Let's just see if we can accomplish this ourselves. Which is pretty badass in my opinion.
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Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah.
- [18:11]
Unnamed Guest
They did not speak to a manager. They became the manager.
- [18:15]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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Unnamed Guest
Yeah. The pendulum has certainly swung wildly, I will say. And the idea of putting the name Women's in the bank was massive topic during their foundation meetings. In the minutes they would spend a lot of time talking about whether it was a good thing or not a good thing, was it beneficial, what was it for? And they really would go back and forth about the merits of putting that in there. But one of the things they insisted was it needs to have women's in it. But also we will make it clear everybody is welcome to bank here. It's just that we're focusing on the needs of women that are not being met at other banks here in town. It was genius.
- [23:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Genius.
- [23:24]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Farnoosh Tarabi
What did it inspire? Give me some stories of lives that were changed and the influence that this project had had ultimately on the banking system and how we know banking today that we take for granted. What was the. What were they really laying the foundation for in 1978?
- [23:45]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah. So I will give you a fun anecdote about why it is. I even thought, okay, this is a project I want to take on and that Is that in the summer of 1998. Okay, so this is 20 years later. I'm 19 years old. I'm in New York for my first year. I'm not in college. I have zero credit history record to my name. And Capital One reached out and said, would you like to open a student credit card? And I wasn't even a student. I had a crappy stipend. I was a volunteer and just myself on my own. I signed up and got that credit card with like a terrible interest rate and a very low credit limit, but I still got the card. I was establishing my own credit right when I discovered that somebody like Carol Green, who probably had so much more potential as a great credit client or Mary Echols, is a story that I also tell. She. She was a silversmith who went to her bank to get a loan to try to buy the business where she worked and was turned away until Women's bank entertained her. And we can get to more of her story in a second. But when I learned that just some kid could go and get this, they were handing it out like potato chips for us. But these women would be denied. I thought, okay, 20 years, that's not very long. And also, what a change. So they had a direct impact on me in 1998 as a credit nobody. And I wanted to do this as a love letter and a thank you almost, because it's a great story in terms of other scope and other reach. I think we just have better rights as women and better access to information. I think all consumers benefit from plain English language in terms of what the statements say they benefit. We benefit from an understanding about what interest does, what it means. They calculate it for you. Now, instead of just you sign and you don't know. And I think also you find sometimes that if you are in hot water, an institution is more inclined. Not always, but often they're more inclined to entertain. Okay, what are some alternatives that we can explore? So you're not completely. So that everybody benefits. So they're willing to work with the consumer more. And I think that empathy in banking and finance, it definitely has come into play because of the woman and the feminine such.
- [26:20]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I really believe that when you interviewed these women founders, did they really understand the impact that they had placed on our lives, or were they playing humble when you were interviewing them? They wanted to focus initially more on just the how they did it as opposed to what it actually meant and how it unfolded in other people's lives, lives they never knew. Like, they have touched so many lives and I just wonder if they know this, the magnanimity of it. Do they appreciate that? Do they? Are they proud of themselves?
- [26:55]
Unnamed Guest
I like to think that when the book itself was in their hands, finally, after all this time, so much research, pandemic, et cetera, life, everything. I think a lot of them were very surprised to see. See exactly what they collectively did together, because there's definitely a lot of. They're very humble about this. And they're also very much still fighting all these crazy things going on and fighting for a better world for everybody. And so I think when you have. When you're in combat mentality and you're 90, just imagine that for a moment, maybe not looking back and being like, look at all that I've done.
- [27:39]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah.
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Unnamed Guest
So somebody has to say, look at all you've done.
- [27:42]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Right.
- [27:43]
Unnamed Guest
That was the goal, too. Like I said, the thank you and a love letter. And so I got some really amazing feedback. And they couldn't believe that this was what they had accomplished. In some ways they knew, but they didn't know. They hadn't seen it all together yet. Yeah.
- [27:58]
Farnoosh Tarabi
What happened to the bank? It was bought in 1994, I believe, by investors, and then it was shut down in 95. Was that. What's the story there?
- [28:08]
Unnamed Guest
It actually still exists. It's sold again. And it's now BOK Financial in Denver still. But they. In 94, when they sold it and took the name and changed it all, the idea was that it had accomplished everything that they wanted it to accomplish. You didn't need a man's signature to get credit. And women were climbing the corporate ladder in finance banking, which was also another sticking point for why they started the bank. So the attitude was, okay, it's cool, we'll sell it. We're sad about losing the name, but we've done what we came to do here. And then obviously now you just wonder if we need to start opening women's banks again.
- [28:53]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, let's hope not.
- [28:54]
Unnamed Guest
I hesitate to. Trust me.
- [28:56]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. Going back to what you were saying about how they didn't ask for the manager, they became the manager. And I think that we also want to remember that this was a time when men, as they do now, really dominated the financial services industry.
- [29:15]
Unnamed Guest
Yes.
- [29:16]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And this bank of this women's bank in Denver, it also showed how women could be leaders and owners of banks as opposed to just the secretaries. And I'm using the 1978 term for the secretaries and the assistants and the assistants to the assistants, that you could actually have power in the Financial services industry, more power. Do you think that it also paved the way for today? Now we have women running banks and C suites in financial services. I think that we should credit them for that too, to some extent.
- [29:57]
Unnamed Guest
I would absolutely agree with you. And also there were other women's banks that opened up across the nation at the same time. The Denver bank was the first, I believe, an only nationally chartered one. And the national charter is that extra kudo. They're regulated differently and they have to go through other hoops in order to open. That's where the national distinction comes in. But yes, I would say prior to the bank in Denver, especially running the show the way they did, women who sat on bank boards, for instance, would inherit the seat from a deceased male relative, typically. So my husband has the seat, right. He passes away. So I take the seat. And are they taking what I say seriously at the meetings? I'm guessing probably not. Right? Because I am not really in banking, but I've inherited this position versus one of the women, the main women, Larray Rulian.
- [30:56]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Because no man in history has ever inherited anything.
- [30:59]
Unnamed Guest
Of course not, no.
- [30:59]
Farnoosh Tarabi
From the man before him. No.
- [31:01]
Unnamed Guest
That never happens. Not even with a last name, the surname. Nope. So Lara Aurelian was really a huge trailblazer in Denver and had risen to the ranks, the highest ranks he could get as a woman in banking. And she came from pretty humble beginnings in the banking industry. She put herself through school, she was a dynamo. And she still wasn't getting those positions and those promotions that she felt and was indeed owed by the bank where she worked. You're not necessarily going to see that as much these days. I think that enough employers. She was there 20 years, I want to say. So enough employers would notice this and say, okay, we gotta do something, we need to do something. Or you would have options and some recruiter would snatch you up because you know exactly what you're doing and you're so talented, they would see you on a LinkedIn today. And so they wouldn't. Your bank would not get away with what they did with her. Absolutely not.
- [32:02]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Are you looking at other unhidden figures in finance right now? Are there other untold stories of trailblazing and change and perhaps not even just women, Other groups of people who've been historically marginalized and discriminated against.
- [32:23]
Unnamed Guest
So there were a few things that didn't make it into the actual book itself that I wish could go in there. One thing that really stood out to me when I was doing my pandemic research, I Went to see. Okay, let's look at women in banking in the news back as far as we can to the early newspaper days. And I want to say they went back to maybe the 1870s or 80s, maybe I forget now. But what I discovered is that women were working in banking pretty much as. For as far back as news goes. And there were some really wild, interesting, fun stories about bank heists, about this one woman who became a very famous stage actress, which was controversial back in the day, but she was a bank teller at one point. And so just that wild west trading post that becomes a bank that hires women. They absolutely existed. And there were a lot of women who were trusted more than men actually to handle consumer money. And that was interesting to me. That was surprising that they recognized it as far back as then, but it didn't make it in the book. So I like to think that could be a second book maybe or a big essay or something. There's a lot of them.
- [33:43]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Before we go, your work in financial journalism, you gotta be at least asking a lot of questions right now. And we don't have answers always. But what are you thinking about working on, hypothesizing in terms of personal finance in our lives, and everything's so uncertain right now. Do you have, like, ideas about where we should be? Where should the ideas about, like how we should be thinking about our money going forward, how we should be thinking about our careers, how we should be thinking about investing? Or is it all just the same advice? Do you have new thoughts on everything right now?
- [34:23]
Unnamed Guest
I really think one thing we should all try to do is stay as calm as we possibly can and not make rash decisions if we're invested. This market is just breaking hearts at the moment. It really is. And I'm lucky enough, I feel like you two, we're lucky enough that we're not trying to draw on anything we've got invested right now, including a 529, apparently. I'm reading too, so thank goodness we can stay long, if you will. For people that aren't able to do that, there needs to just be some calm conversations with whoever's managing the money to figure out how do we get rid of the risk, how do we minimize this risk, bring it down? Because this is blood pressure spiking, and it just gets worse and worse. And so I think breathing and staying calm and figuring out what's a better strategy is the key for anyone who really needs that money right now. And there's a lot that do. And so I was saying a couple Days ago to a couple of people they were asking me my favorite self care practice and said that financial understanding and financial just comfort and calm is the best self care you can get yourself. Because if you understand what's going on with the money, then you can go to the spa. Which is my second favorite.
- [35:44]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yes.
- [35:45]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [35:46]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Which I am doing on Friday for you.
- [35:48]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, we all need a little spa, right?
- [35:51]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I think so. We need to just take care of our bodies, our minds, our money because it's all connected. All connected, exactly. Grace Williams, thank you so much. Congratulations on your book and it was very nice to be able to sit down with you. And by the way, audience again. Grace and I will be at the watch on booksellers. You tell me the date. It's April 23rd, right? Yep, April 23rd. So we hope to see many of you there. I hope your day is so money.
- [36:32]
Grace L. Williams
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- [37:03]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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