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So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1816: Traveling for Free with Points with Brian Kelly, The Points Guy
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- [00:02]
A
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [00:32]
B
This episode is brought to you by after the Fact, a podcast by the Pew Charitable Trusts on Sew Money. We talk a lot about informed decision making and after the Fact is the perfect companion for that mindset. This podcast offers data driven insights into today's big issues, from housing to Internet access, health and the environment. Each episode features expert insights with real stories so you're not just getting the numbers, you're hearing how people and communities are working toward real, lasting solutions. Curious, thoughtful and want just the facts. This is the podcast to add to your rotation. Listen to after the Fact wherever you get your podcasts. So Money Episode 1816 how to travel better, Smarter and cheaper in the Platinum age of Travel.
- [01:18]
A
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save money, save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place.
- [01:38]
B
Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life.
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A
Welcome to SO Money. Okay, I fly Delta. I'm just gonna have a Delta card, right? That is the old mindset. That is no longer. You gotta wake up and you need to get credit cards with banks. So like loyalty is shifting from the airlines and hotels and smart points people are accruing the Chase Sapphire, the Amex Gold, the Capital One Venture, the built points. These are currencies that allow you to transfer to a number of different partners.
- [02:11]
B
Welcome back to so Money. My friends. Today we're diving into the world of travel. We're going behind the scenes of what it's like to travel with points with none other than the points guy himself, Brian Kelly, a longtime friend of the show. Brian is here to talk about his new book, how to Win at Travel, a guide that helps us unlock all the secrets to mastering the points game. Also, how to maximize travel perks and score luxury experience without the hefty price tags. And if you've ever felt like travel is an overwhelming maze of loyalty programs, hidden fees and expensive last minute flights, well, this episode is for you. We're going to talk about why Brian calls it the platinum age of travel right now and how to take full advantage of it. The biggest mistakes we make when it comes to airline and hotel bookings and how to avoid them. Also the top tech tools to help us find the best flights and travel deals with minimal effort. Here's Brian Kelly. Brian Kelly, my friend, welcome back to SO Money and congratulations on your newest book, how to Win at Travel.
- [03:16]
A
Thank you so much. Yeah, it's. This whole book thing has been a really fun experience. So happy to chat with you today.
- [03:23]
B
Your title is called how to Win at Travel, suggesting that travel is a game and there are going to be some losers. So tell me about the winners and the losers in travel.
- [03:35]
A
Well, you know, I say in the book, travel is my favorite sport because it really is. You need to have the right gear, the right mentality and frankly, you know, we're not taught this in school. Just like many financial things as you know and talk about quite a bit and so much in travel is financial related and high level. I want people to approach specifically the points world as a financial success. You know, there's so much, and I know myself, I. The more I pay attention to points and my credit and, and you get rewarded for being smart, paying bills on time and focusing on your credit score. So in general, I feel like winning at this travel game. This points game is also winning at life. But yes, I wrote the book because I still see it today, just in airports every day, people melting down, waiting in lines, totally clueless. And through my work at the points guy, I read hundreds and thousands of messages from people like. And they're making the same mistakes over and over again. So we're living today in a much different travel world than even five years ago. So I wanted to write the book to give anyone take you from beginner to intermediate and even expert.
- [04:51]
B
Yeah, you talk about how we're at this platinum age of travel from 2010 to present times. A lot of that driven by the proliferation of loyalty programs. Tell us about this era of travel that we're in and maybe a short history because I think this is this for me, when I was reading your book, book was very new information to me. I thought we were in maybe like the stone ages of travel because there is a lot of angst and a lot of disruption, turmoil. You know, I feel like every day you turn on the news, someone's getting kicked off a plane. I have anxiety going to the airport, will it be on time, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But tell us why comparatively we're in this platinum. Not even golden. You skipped. You went to platinum age of travel, straight platinum.
- [05:36]
A
And of course, platinum has connotations that relate to the platinum, Platinum card, Platinum elite status. So I wanted to basically make the argument that look on Facebook and social media, you see pictures. Oh, back then, travel was amazing. You had turkey dinners in economy, you.
- [05:53]
B
Got dressed up to get on your TWA flight.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah, you got dressed up because only rich people, full stop, only the richest of the rich could travel. And by the way, travel was much more dangerous. It was much more time consuming. And there's actually a lot of downsides to that, you know, era of travel, sexual harassment, you know, like.
- [06:13]
B
Right.
- [06:13]
A
It was not this perfect utopia you make it out to be, but mostly because it was only for rich people.
- [06:18]
B
Yeah, you wrote that the cost of airfare is actually down since 2000, adjusted for inflation.
- [06:24]
A
It is incredible. Today you can still get incredible deals. You can go round trip to Europe for less than $500 regularly if you know how to find the right flights. And so basically, I think today, you know, airfare or air travel is as safe as it's ever been. And even though we live in a social media world where it seems so unsafe, airplane windows blowing off and all of these things have been happening, it's just the proliferation of social media and the algorithm that prioritizes crazy, wacky, outrageous that we think it's more dangerous than it's not. So I try to break down to people that we're actually living in an incredible time. And most importantly, not only as travel, the price isn't as much comparatively, but it's even more affordable when you take advantage of the loyalty ecosystem. I have blog readers who are college kids with no income but with near perfect credit scores who are able to leverage their good credit to study abroad for free, to travel around the world. Whether you're a retiree on a fixed income, but a great credit score, you're not buying a home anytime soon. You should be juicing value out of our system. And in the US it's unprecedented. You know how much value you can get from a single credit card. The perks on these cards, which I teach people to evaluate. So it's not just points, but it's also these really rich perks that the cards are giving and that, you know, the system can work for you if you know how to. To leverage it to your benefit.
- [07:54]
B
So if I'm planning a trip to Europe and I want to get the best deal, I want to be in first class. Does the smart money go and open up a rewards credit card that immediately gives you like a free flight, assuming I have good credit to qualify for that card. Tell us about the game and how to, how to game it really in that, for, in that example, yeah, you.
- [08:17]
A
Could totally go round trip to Europe and business class from one single credit card, 100,000 point offer on a, on a Capital One Venture X card or even small business credit cards have really, really high 150,000, 250,000 point bonuses. What I remind people, if you're married, don't have your spouse on an additional card, each of you, it's called two player mode. Each of you gets 100,000 point bonus. You can even refer each other to get extra bonuses on top of that and then simply put in the credit card space. The biggest trend is that you need to be earning transferable points. So some people have cash back and that's fine. You want to be getting as close to 2% back if possible. Most people I see have airline cards because they've had them for 10, 15 years. Okay, I fly Delta. I'm just going to have a Delta card, right? That is the old mindset that is no longer you got to wake up and you need to get credit cards with banks. So like loyalty is shifting from the airlines and hotels. And smart points people are accruing the Chase Sapphire, the Amex Gold, the Capital One Venture, the built points. These are currencies that allow you to transfer to a number of different partners. And in the case of what you just brought up, you want to go to Europe in business class. The key is leveraging the foreign frequent flyer programs because the US programs like United, Delta, American, they have been inflating the amount of miles you need for those premium award tickets to Europe.
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B
Right.
- [09:48]
A
The foreign programs are much further behind in that process. So an example would be, you know, flying to Paris, Air France. Delta is going to charge you 600,000 miles round trip for that $7,000 flight, whereas you can get it as cheap as 100,000 miles transferred from any of those transferable points program to Air France. The key is now leveraging technology to find those dates with the cheapest flights. So I talk about like there's so many emerging technologies that have come out within the last two to three years. These tools like point me and Seats ARR Rome travel, their tools, you may have to, they're free, but then you can pay $100 for the premium version. They will actually let you just like Google flights lets you hunt for the cheapest fare on any given date. So point me specifically and it's free. If you have Amex, you go to point me amex. So anyone with the membership rewards card gets free access to this tool and it'll say don't spend 7,000 or don't don't transfer your Amex points to Delta for 600,000 and it'll show you it might even be, you know, 120,000 on Virgin Atlantic. And there might even be a transfer bonus making it even less than 100,000 points a trip. So this, in the old days you'd have to be an expert like me. You know, this is where people's eyes would glaze over like I'm not checking 10 different websites. Now there are tools that you give it your exact dates or in the case of seats, arrow, you could say, you know what, I'm flexible. I just want to go this summer. I really want to fly that Emirates flight JFK to Milan. Beautiful. They have a special route you could on seats Aero, you could search an entire year instantly and it'll show you all the dates with economy, premium, business and first class. And to get the most value is plan your trips where the deals are. Right. Save the thousands you would have spent on that airfare so that you can eat at amazing restaurants or just put that money towards your retirement or student loans. So that's how if you travel and you're not playing this points game, in my opinion, you are throwing money away.
- [11:52]
B
Yeah. You talk about how the new game now is to get these bank cards that give you transferable points as opposed to the card that is exclusive to the airline. And we're still making that mistake, perhaps. What are some other missteps people going with the right intentions? I want to score, you know, a great deal. I want to try to leverage credit. What are some other tricks or things that they're overlooking to get the best deal? You mentioned the apps and what are some other things that we don't know about?
- [12:24]
A
So there's two options too. So if you can plan in advance. I talk about this in the book. You know, airlines open up a certain number of seats even on those super hard flights to get Hawaii, Australia. But to the early bird goes the warm. So a lot of airlines will open up those seats 12 months, you know, 11 months in advance, 330 days out. But some frequent flyer programs don't open their award ticket booking till later, like 10 months in advance. But the trick here is you can book via foreign frequent flyer programs that have the earliest booking windows and that's how experts snag the very best seats. So like clockwork, you can wait till 11 months, 331 days to the date that the airline opens up those seats and snatch them right away. So I teach people how to get the early bird, which is it, you know, especially if you have a flexible schedule, you know, the honeymoon you want to take the next year, that's how you get it in advance. And alternatively, last minute airfares go through the roof, especially internationally, but airlines want to fill every single seat. And contrary to public belief, the airlines want you to redeem your miles because they can't get the value from them that they sold those miles to the credit card companies until you redeem them. So airlines will also open up an incredible amount of last minute, really cheap award space to hopefully just fill seats. So, and that's, you know, if you're ever in a situation where you're in Europe, you need to come home, family member's sick, the airline's going to charge you an insane amount of money to book last minute one way tickets, whereas at the same time there's usually an incredible amount of last minute award inventory. So if you're flexible and you start checking last minute, that's when you can get, oh, last minute, let's go to Tahiti. All right, well the flights are there, you know, so being flexible I think is the key. There's no one day of the week to get the cheapest fares and the, you know, I wish it was that easy. But flexibility, technology are key to getting the most value.
- [14:19]
B
What's your strategy for insurance? Because when you were last on so money you talked about, and I do this too, where you buy like the, the refundable tickets, it's a little bit more, but then you're covered, you know, and for any reason, whereas the insurance, maybe you do pay a little bit less, sort of, you still don't know whether you're going to qualify for that insurance depending on case.
- [14:42]
A
Yeah. And the airline tickets are, one of the changes from the pandemic is the airlines are actually pretty flexible with changes and cancellations. Like now you'll mostly get your voucher for future use for a year. So if you need to cancel, that's not like where the most heartbreak comes from. The heartbreak comes when you book that cruise where you've got to pay six months in advance for a family of 10. And then three days before the trip, grandma gets sick and you can't go and you're out 50,000 plus dollars. Oh my God, this is what happens all the time. And this is where getting a 5% of the cost of the trip is generally a really good insurance policy. This is where I tell people that safari not only will it cover you for any tours, whatever, and a lot of the, you know, the devil's in the details and the coverage is very easy to read. So insuremytrip.com is the place to go to you compare and contrast policies. Never buy it through an airline or a hotel because the coverage you're getting generally isn't even insurance. It's called travel protection, which is really expensive for really terrible coverage. Coverage for less. You could get far better coverage through an independent provider. And also what I've just from years of booking on insure my trip. Sometimes the most expensive policies have the worst coverage. So you always have to click down compare and contrast and you'll often find like wait a minute, the cheapest policy has incredible, you know, medical coverage, which is another point internationally your US insurance will not cover you in general if you get sick abroad and certainly medical evacuations. So this is where like those big trips, non refundable villa for the family that you have to book six months in advance, those are the trips I highly recommend. And, and there's also yearly insurance products. If you travel a lot, you can pay a couple hundred dollars a year and get really good yearly insurance. So you know, we're seeing wildfires in Maui randomly that what people don't realize is, you know, when you're booking non refundable flights and hotels, even if something bad happens, even if you're, you know, some airlines may let you out and have pity on you if someone gets sick. But people come to me all the time. I had a non refundable ticket, my grandma died, how dare the airline not refund me. My point to them is like you agreed no matter what you went into a contract and I talked about this in the book, understanding what you're agreeing to when you buy a ticket is first of all, that's how like you need to understand how this industry works. And you also can't expect a small hotel to insure you, meaning they take the full loss if something bad happens. Right? This is like where I think it's important for people to protect themselves and not, you know, rely. And finally, just like even when you're asking a travel provider for a refund if something bad happens, because I do say it never hurts to ask. But understand the difference of asking for a favor, which is most of the time what we're asking for versus what you're actually owed because I go through it in the book. Unfortunately, we don't have that many consumer rights here in the U.S. you know, this last dot put in some rules around cancellations. You're able to get your money back. Airlines used to be naughty and would give you a voucher that expires whenever they cancel the flight. Now they're mandated to refund you, but you're not getting coverage for all the tours and cruises that you miss if the airline cancels your flight. And that's what I want to educate people because I think a lot of the mistakes people make is during the booking process. And even booking through the wrong channels, like booking through an online travel agency can really wreak havoc. When the airline cancels your flight and you have to call your online travel agency, wait on hold when if you book directly with the airline, they'll put you on the next flight in two seconds. So did you really save enough money to bring on the heartburn if something goes wrong? Those are the risks that I want people to understand. I think today so many people are just booking through. They Google, they find, you know, a Google Ad that takes them to an online travel agency but they're not realizing they're not earning hotel points. They're going to get the worst room and if the hotel sold out, a lot of times those OTA bookings first to get kicked out. Most people don't even understand the risks of different channels. And that's what I really in the beginning of the book highlight. Yeah, this is, this is how it's all laid out and how you want to avoid making mistakes.
- [19:04]
B
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- [21:40]
A
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain an unidentified ship is approached approaching over Roger wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results terms and conditions app.
- [22:12]
B
When it comes to lodging and hotel bookings, I have a hunch that if you do book your room through a third party site, you will get the worst room because you got it for less. Or you know the hotel has to pay this third party site and so they're not going to be as accommodating or as loving when you get there versus you calling the hotel or going on the hotel site directly. But when is it worth it? Because you know, maybe it is worth it to save on the third party sites for a room that doesn't have a view. But whatever you saved a Hundred dollars a night. What's the best strategy for optimizing your hotel stay, lodging.
- [22:48]
A
So here's the deal. I mean, most hotels, and I go over it in the book, have best rate guarantees. So if you find a cheap rate on an ota, you call the hotel or, you know, ask them to match that rate. Most of the time they will because they'd rather give you that rate, not pay the 20% to the online travel agency, which is roughly what the OTAs get get paid. And you're totally right. Hotel owners, you know, Marriott and Hyatt, they generally don't own their hotels. They're owned by independent operators. Their goal in life is to get returns for their investors. So when they have to boot a customer, you're going to boot the customers you're making the least amount of money from, which is the OTA clients, because there's a 20% commission. Booking direct, you're much more valuable because they're making more money. They wouldn't do something, they wouldn't do something to hurt themselves financial. So that's what I want people to understand where this all comes into play. I would say book through an OTA if you're getting extraordinary savings, because remember, you're not going to get loyalty points by booking through an OTA. But if you're saving 50% and the hotel won't match it, sure, you know, just understand and make sure you book the room type you want. It's documented. And if they try to put you in something inferior, you can stand your ground. But where I recommend booking through Luxury Travel Advisors is on the luxury spectrum. So I don't recommend. And you want to go to the Four Seasons Maui, a lot of people will just go to fourseasons. Com what you're foregoing by going through a luxury travel agent who books a lot with those properties. Those travel advisors can get you hundreds or thousands of dollars in perks, upgrades, late checkout that often those luxury hotels don't offer on their website. And booking through a luxury, so you're going to get the same price with tons of extra perks by going through a virtuoso agent. And they also are an extra layer. So say you show up, they did give you something subpar, you don't have the room you thought you did. If you book direct, you have to go to the front desk and beg. If you book through a powerhouse travel advisor who sends tons of tons and tons of business to that property, you don't even go to the front desk. You call up your travel Advisor say, hey, they're not living up and you better believe they will rain down on that hotel. And a travel advisor who sends thousands of dollars of business can say, hey, if you don't make this right, I'm not sending future clients. You have leverage. And that's another point where people, I never thought about it that way. So I just want people to be strategic where they book because it can make all the difference in your travels.
- [25:22]
B
Who are these liaisons? These. You know, I assume that you're not Talking about like Hotels.com, you're talking about individuals or agencies that work specifically with, with getting you lodging.
- [25:32]
A
Yep. Yeah. So these are called luxury travel advisors, actually, Wendy, Wendy Perrin, who is a celebrated travel journalist, she was a Conde Nast traveler for many years. She has her own wendyparron.com and she has a wow list. And these are the top, top travel advisors. And most of the time, by the way, you don't have to pay anything to use these advisors. You know, they get a commission from the hotels, so they're happy to book luxury. You know, they're not going to book your coach flights and cheap hotels. It's not worth their time. But for that African safari, you know, there's a company, Roar Africa. They are the top dog bookers throughout Africa. So not only are you getting the protection, you're getting the know how. You know, every safari camp's different. You're never going to be no, no person going on safari for the first time is going to understand the nuance of all the different camps, locations, wildlife. So sitting down with a travel advisor who you can download what your dreams are, they can save you time, money, and just make your trip that much easier. And then if anything goes wrong and you're in Nairobi and a flight's canceled, you know, you have someone to lean on and they have whole network. So sometimes these travel advisors do charge, but in general you can. And this is also called Amex Fine Hotels and Resorts is a virtuoso, basically agent built in, where you get automatic early check in if it's available, you know, breakfast, et cetera.
- [26:55]
B
I love that. Now you have built obviously a career around travel since you were 12 years old. You were booking a flight for your dad. I was reading through Travelocity. That's kind of when it all started. You even charged him for that, which is so cute. How has your approach, how has Brian Kelly's approach to travel changed over the years? And I mean, you're a dad now of two young boys and so I assume that also goes into some of your travel decisions and travel style.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah, so, you know, I've been many different phases when I was starting in the points game in the 2000s, working in finance, single, you know, those were the days with elite status where it didn't depend how much you spent. You could fly a certain number of flights. This is when people would mileage run to get like crazy elite status perks, free upgrades. I talk about it in the book. Elite status has changed dramatically. People are now paying for first class seats. The airlines are no longer giving away the bank, so to speak. So nowadays I don't care about elite status. I care about convenience. Flying the best plane type, which I talk about. This is another mistake people make, especially when you're flying business class. Choosing a flight that leaves an hour later might have a gorgeous suite with closing doors, lie flatbed, or you could choose the wrong flight for even more money and have a recliner seat for eight hours, which people make these mistakes. And this is like where just understanding a little bit about plane type and learning the differences between seats and stuff makes all the difference. So nowadays, yeah, I'm just, I need to get where I need to go the most reliably. So like on time performance. And that's why I will pay a premium to fly Delta. They're the most on time airline in the US but I also will not drive an extra 2 hours to JFK, which I hate. So sometimes I'll say I'll go to United, you know, so I know I'm taking the flights that are the most convenient and you know, have the best on time, you know, percentages, not connecting when I don't have to. I mean I do check a bag with two little kids, sometimes it's unavoidable. But you know, when possible because you know, you know, when you check a bag, you have a lot fewer options when something goes wrong. When you're, when you're untethered from the.
- [29:05]
B
Totally, yes, you can just pop a.
- [29:07]
A
Gate down and get on the next flight. But when you've got that bag checked, you got a bag borrow, steal to get it back, you really are tied to that flight.
- [29:14]
B
Totally traveling light. Sorry. Go, keep going.
- [29:18]
A
Oh, and I just, I have to add with the tip and I scream it from the rooftops. Always put an air tag in all of of your luggage, not even just your checked bags, but air tags. Now if the airline loses your bag and you don't have an airtag in it, shame on you because they're so easy Cheap. And it will give you real time, almost location of your bag wherever it is in the world. And the airlines now actually integrate with Apple where you can share your airtag location and that will get you your bag back so much faster.
- [29:45]
B
But, like, they tag it and can't they? Like, why isn't that enough?
- [29:50]
A
Yeah, you would think. I mean, some airlines are decent, but they can try.
- [29:54]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I guess it's not, it's not electrical.
- [29:57]
A
I know it's sad that we have to pay $20 to have our own bag trackers. I don't make the rules here, kids. You know, the airlines continue to mess it up or tag the wrong airport. Those agents are often overworked. So I always recommend when you check your bag, take a photo, make sure the bag tag is to the right location, and take a photo of your luggage. So if it does go missing, you can easily just share it with them.
- [30:18]
B
And another pro tip for new parents over, pack diapers, Bring two extra changes of clothes. You just never know when your child's going to have a vomit attack or, you know, some other Ziploc bag.
- [30:31]
A
Ziploc bag. And sometimes be ready to just throw out clothes, too. You know, the blowout will always ask.
- [30:37]
B
The flight attendant, please, do you have a hefty bag?
- [30:40]
A
And not only an extra change of clothes for your kids, but also you bring the extra T shirt, the comfy, stretchy.
- [30:46]
B
Oh, I got stories. And lastly, before we go, Brian, tell us your biggest win in travel to bring it back to your book, how to Win at Travel. What's been Brian Kelly's most recent or historical best win where you just like, you know, this is the story that you're going to be telling your grandkids.
- [31:06]
A
For me, it's just, it's traveling intergenerationally. So my parents instilled so many values in me. We've had so many great trips. And now that my, my son, I mean, he's been to 16 countries in two years. And I would just say our most recent trip in November, we went on safari to this place called Cheetah Plains in South Africa. And I was just at a moment in this beautiful safari day. My parents, my son in beautiful wilderness. And my son was like taking it all in and was spotting elephants that we couldn't even see. And I just, it was a moment of just complete. I'm so fortunate to be able to explore the world and make these memories that I will forever to take with me for the rest of my life. And being able to do it without breaking the bank. And my parents feel good traveling with me because they know I'm not shelling out 20,000 for their tickets. You know, I'm using points that I've saved. I think it just makes it all even more sweeter.
- [32:02]
B
That's such a sweet story and you should be so proud. And your parents, I can't even imagine what it's like for them to see it through your eyes and now their grandson's eyes. And thank you for sharing all of your advice continuously for us. And your latest book is called how to Win at Travel. Brian Kelly, founder of the Points Guy. Thanks for coming back on the show.
- [32:21]
A
Thank you so much for having me. Safe travels.
- [32:25]
B
Thanks so much to Brian Kelly for joining us. His book is called how to Win at Travel. I hope your day is so Money.
- [32:45]
A
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member fdic ever.
- [33:13]
B
Wonder what your lashes are destined for? The cards have spoken. Maybelline, New York Mascara does it all. Whether you crave fully fan lashes with Lash Sensational big bold volume from the Colossal A Dramatic Lift with Falsies Lash Lift or Natural looking volume from Great Lash. Your perfect lash future awaits. Manifest your best mascara today. Shop Maybelline New York and discover your lash destiny. Shop now at Walmart.