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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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- [01:39]
Kristin Wong
The conversation might be a little bit awkward depending on, you know, what it's about. If you can't afford to take a vacation, you can't afford to be a bridesmaid in their wedding, whatever it is. It might be a difficult conversation to have, but once you get past that initial difficulty and that initial awkwardness, how your friend responds to that is going to be a huge tell in where the relationship is goes from there. And ideally it goes, you know, it goes in a good direction.
- [02:04]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Welcome to so Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. When I was a little girl, my family was very much on the rise financially. My dad was an academic and when he graduated got his PhD. His income slowly grew over the years as he transitioned jobs and got promoted and our quality of life would always improve. We would move to better neighborhoods, a nicer house, all the things. And so we always felt, I always felt like we had more than enough and it was always fun to see sort of where the family would go next. Cut to about I'm 9, 10 years old. And my parents make friends with these folks who are wildly rich. I'm talking lavish vacations, Mercedes Benzes, a house with a pool. I mean, I was just happy to have a second bathroom in our house. I was so happy about that. Being with these folks, it was fun. Sometimes we'd go on some crazy vacations. My parents, I know, were having a good time, lots of bottles of wine at dinner. And this family was always very generous, would often comp us, often pay for our trips and pay for our meals. And as I look back, I think my parents had a sense of obligation to this family that was rooted in all the times that they would treat us. So when they would ask my parents for favors or help for various household things or tasks at one point we were all living in close proximity. My parents would drop everything and help them, even if it meant rerouting their day, rescheduling their appointments. There was this tension that even as a kid I noticed it. And as we'll learn in this conversation today with our guest, financial friction in friendships is a real thing, especially if one friend or friend group earns more or earns less. And suddenly things you do together and enjoy together become more challenging. Wealth differences can sometimes create invisible lines that complicate what should be enjoyable moments and lead to feelings of envy, guilt or imbalance. So today we're diving into this conundrum with someone who has tackled this topic recently. Krist Wong is an award winning journalist and author and she's explored the subtle, often unspoken ways that wealth gaps can impact friendships. A recent article in the New York Times uncovers the nuances of these situations as well as how friends navigate the social and emotional dynamics of financial imbalance. We'll hear about some of the scenarios and interviews that didn't make the New York Times article, but Kristin's got the scoop. Here's Kristen Wong. Kristen Wong, welcome back to so money. It's been a minute, but I'm always following your work and I'm excited to have you back to talk about your recent New York Times piece on friends and money and the complexities that ensue. Welcome, welcome, my friend.
- [04:47]
Kristin Wong
Thank you. Thanks for having me back.
- [04:49]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Let's first reintroduce you to our audience for those who may not have been listening for a very long time. Kristin, you're no, you're no stranger to so Money, but tell us a little bit about the lens through which you like to explore personal finance stories. I think I was describing you to a friend this morning. As I was saying, I'M going interview Kristen. And I said, she just loves to get into sort of the complexities and the messiness of money sometimes and untangle it for readers. And I think that's a, that's an important job. You like to get it to sort of the, the layers of financial, personal finance.
- [05:24]
Kristin Wong
Yeah, I'm very interested in the psychology of money. And so a lot of my work, you know, has actually shifted more to writing about social science in recent years, but I'm still very fascinated. Like, it, it comes back to money often because I don't know, there's just, like, there's such a rich topic wise when it comes to psychology and money. Like, there's just a lot there to unpack.
- [05:45]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. And recently for the New York Times, where you write, you unpacked friendship and money. And specifically when you have disparate financial lives where one friend either earns more or just has a higher net worth and the other friend is not quite there. And the challenges that come about. How did this story come about for you?
- [06:08]
Kristin Wong
I don't, I think, think it's just kind of how any story along those lines comes about, where it's like, I notice something happening either within my own friend group or I'll find some. I'll come across a Reddit thread where somebody's talking about something and I'm like, that's an interesting problem to solve. Maybe I should write about this. So I don't know exact. I think I had had this story idea for a while and I pitched it and it went over well. But I think it's just something that's very ubiquitous. Like it, it's, we deal with it all the time. Like all of us kind of have issues that come up with this often. You know, whether it's like splitting how to split the check at dinner, or if it's like a larger issue where it's like, you know, lending money to friends and how do you navigate that? But I think it's just something that's pretty common.
- [06:55]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. I was talking to Lindsey Stanberry. Both, we are, we are both friends with her. She is the creator of the Purse, longtime journalist. She said something that I think was really resonant where she's like, you know, you have that friend and you've been friends for a while, and you think you're on the same financial wavelength. You know, you've been going to the same restaurants together, maybe you've even gone on vacation together. You seem to have the same financial capabilities and then all of a sudden they buy a $3 million townhome. And you're like, where did that come from? You know, I've had that happen to me and my husband. Like, we'll be friends with these, with this couple. And then they're like, yeah, we're looking for. You know, we're looking for. We're house hunting, and we're renting. Right now. We're house hunting. This is the same couple that I'm. I'm going. I'm going off track here a little bit, but this is where I love this. So this is the couple. Same couple who, like, invites us to a bir party for their kid and orders Domino's pizza because they said it's too expensive to buy all these boxes of pizza from the fancy Italian place down the street. They're like, we're just gonna do Domino's. They're three years old. It's fine. I'm like, yeah, that's expensable. And then the next week, they bought, like, a $5 million townhome. Anyway, just a small story there. What makes this so relatable is that you're right. Like, we've all experienced this at some point, Whether it's in college or high school, when you feel like has more financial resources, they go on nicer vacations. They have their parents credit card. They're spending without a budget. And then as you get older and you choose your profession, that alone can kind of determine your trajectories. The title of your article is called your friend has more money than you do. How can your relationship survive? It sort of implies in the title that this is fraught. This is going to be difficult to navigate. Why did you go in with that, that assumption? Or maybe I'm just reading into the title.
- [08:46]
Kristin Wong
No, I think you're right. And it is fraught. I think it's. It's a difficult thing to navigate. And a lot of times when friends have falling outs, it's often because of money. I mean, it can be about anything. But, yeah, money just kind of makes things a lot stickier. Money is, as you've talked about, and so money is, like, a taboo topic. So it's. It's hard to even bring it up. It's hard to know how to talk about it. And I think it's hard for people to know how to deal with it themselves, much less bring somebody else into the mix and then figure out how to navigate issues that come up with their friends. This interview didn't make it into the final piece just because of the word count issue. But I had interviewed somebody who did have issues with friends. I think her issue was that her friends assumed that she made a lot of money, that she made more money than they did, and they were always, like, kind of expecting her to pay for things because of this assumption. And, yeah, I don't. I think there are a lot of examples like that that people probably have experience with.
- [09:52]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. You interviewed Asia Evans, who is author of Feel Good Finance and a financial therapist. She's been on so Money multiple times. Love her perspective. And she really got to the root of the psychology of this is like, why is there discomfort? Why is there an unsettling feeling when you have a friend who makes more? She said, it's largely due to the fact that we associate net worth with self worth, and we conflate someone's salary with who they are and the measure of who they are as a person. You know, like, they're a better person, a smarter person. And that's something that has nothing to do with the friendship or even the person who's wealthier than you. That's a you thing. How do you. How do you check yourself in those moments? How do you know? And the discomfort that you're feeling with your friend is actually a you thing and not a them thing, even though they may be the ones who are making more and spending in ways that you just can't.
- [10:51]
Kristin Wong
Man, that's such a good question.
- [10:53]
Farnoosh Tarabi
What do you do about it? Like, do you. Do you say something to your friend like, hey, I feel uncomfortable, or. I don't know, how do you find the communication piece around? This is really the challenge.
- [11:03]
Kristin Wong
Yeah, I guess that is really the challenge. I think it's also just like, any kind of uncomfortable emotion that comes up, the thing that you can do to get to that place where you're like, is this. Am I. You know, is this a valid feeling that I'm having, or am I, like, kind of upset with my friend and it's not their fault? I think the one thing you can do is just think about the feeling and, like, process it and ask yourself questions like, why am I feeling this way? What's it bringing up for me? Like, what does it remind me of? Are there other memories in my past that, you know, are getting triggered by this feeling? So I think you can do that. But to your point, you know, I do think a big part of it is the communication piece, and that's the hard part. Right. Because we just talked about how money is kind of a taboo topic. It's. It's hard to know how to talk about it. But I think it's, you know, one way you can look at it is, like, it's going to be an awkward conversation. Like, if you're going to bring something up to your friend, like, maybe they haven't paid you enough for the Airbnb you rented together, it's very awkward to bring that up and say, hey, you owe me money. Could you give me money? Like, that's just an awkward thing to bring up. But the way that I think an interesting way to frame this is, you know, it's an opportunity to deepen your friendship with someone. So, yeah, the conversation might be a little bit awkward depending on, you know, what it's about. If you can't afford to take a vacation, you can't afford to be a bridesmaid in their wedding, whatever it is. It might be a difficult conversation to have. But once you get past that initial difficulty and that initial awkwardness, how your friend responds to that is going to be a huge tell in where the relationship goes from there. And ideally, it goes, you know, it goes in a good direction. And I think just bringing it up in the first place is, yeah, just be direct about it. Anna Goldfarb, who is a writer, she wrote a book called Modern Friendship. I interviewed her in this piece also, and she gave some great advice where, you know, she said to. If you're gonna. If you have to turn somebody down or tell them, no, I can't be, you know, I can't afford to attend your wedding. Give them some kind of consolation, like some kind of a backup. What can you do? You know, can you take them to a really nice dinner or spend the week with them somewhere? So, you know, I think those are kind of. Yeah, there are, like, tips that you can do. There's, like, you know, ways that you can go about this in a kind, strategic way, I guess, but honest culture.
- [13:17]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Now, I think 10 years ago, this may have been even harder, but I do. What do you think about our culture today? I do think that, you know, things like loud budgeting and social media has actually given a lot of the younger folks a permission slip to go, okay, no, like, I can't. I got to be protected, protective. We're talking more about money these days. We have more financial educators supporting people from, you know, whatever your flavor of financial expert is, she's out there, he's out there. So I think that has helped us kind of give us the vocabulary and also the permission to speak up about our financial goals, whether that's in the context of a friendship where there is disparate financial goals or financial means or you're just, you know, in a normal relationship with your, your partner and you want to express, you know, your values and, you know, whatever the context is. But I do think it's a little easier now than ever to have these, these talks.
- [14:14]
Kristin Wong
I do, too. I think, you know, there are probably economic issues at play that make it easier. Like income inequality is just more of a topic now than increasingly more of a topic.
- [14:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
The wealth gap. Right, right.
- [14:26]
Kristin Wong
People are kind of ready to talk about it, I think. And at least in my experience, when I, you know, have a friend, that when I bring it up with a friend for the first time, there's usually sort of like, the sense of relief that comes from bringing it up. Like, I have a, you know, sort of new friend that I'm doing stuff with lately, and the issue of money has come up where I can't afford to do certain things that maybe she wants to do. And I've just kind of said that, like, oh, you know, like, we're really on a tight budget. I have a kid going to preschool. Like, it's, it's, it's like, it's a.
- [14:56]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Little tight around here.
- [14:57]
Kristin Wong
And she seems almost like a sense of relief to, like, be able to say that. And then it was really nice because then she's now very aware, like, when we do things together, she's, like, very aware of suggesting things that are maybe a little bit more budget friendly, you know, be direct. And people seem to respond well to that.
- [15:14]
Farnoosh Tarabi
In a moment, I want to ask you about some of the things that I grapple with when it comes to income disparities with friends. So I'm going to get a little personal and ask you to assess. And then you interviewed two friends whose wealth gap has endured many years. Like 20 years of one friend continuing to earn more than the other. And we're going to get into that relationship and you're going to tell us why it has been successful. But first, let's take a commercial break. Life doesn't happen bi weekly, so why should Payday, the money you earn, can be in your hands today with Earn in. Earnin is an app that gives you access to your pay as you work up to $150 per day and a max of $750 between paydays. It's simple. Just download the Earn in app, verify your paycheck, and start accessing your money right away. Any money you access, plus optional tips, is automatically repaid from your next paycheck. I love Earn in because it provides that extra cushion exactly when you need it. 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So something that came up in your story, and I can relate to this, is when you are the friend who makes more. There is this in some cases, not in all cases. But I have been in this place where I feel like, well, I'll just pay for it, you know, or I won't even ask them if they want to go to this thing. I'll just say, hey, my treat, let's go to this XYZ place or. But I think there's a fine line between being a nice friend who's generous and then being someone who is presumptuous and it thinks that this person cannot afford or would not afford what you want to afford. I always want to make sure that I'm never making the other person feel, quote unquote, less than or like I am trying to insert myself into their financial life or make assumptions, you know, so this is what's all, this is all the thought bubbles going on in my head. So, you know, I, and I think that there is also a fine line of that friend who's kind of extending their generosity, feeling like I don't want to get taken advantage of either. Because I've heard this too from women who make more than. It's always the women who make more than their women friends are like, yeah, everyone just assumes that I'm going to like pick up the tab because I have the big job in finance or whatever. It's such a delicate balance. And I just wonder if you had any interviews that talked about that and or like have any thoughts on that.
- [20:34]
Kristin Wong
Yeah, that's so interesting. I did. There were a lot of people that I actually interviewed for this piece and then the interview didn't make the cut again for.
- [20:43]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And that's why we're here on so Money talking about them. We're giving you the money here. Yeah.
- [20:48]
Kristin Wong
But I did interview somebody who. And he was actually a man who had this, this issue because he had grown up with a lot of, you know, he had grown up with a lot of people who they, they earned the same amount of money and then he started a business and the business really took off and everybody found out about it because I think it would made. He was like in Business Insider and they covered it. And so like his friends Started kind of expecting him to pay for everything. And I think he told me that, you know, he just kind of like the friends that he was close to that he. He felt comfortable saying, so he could just tell them, like, you know, I'm gonna set a boundary with you, and, like, we're gonna. I'm not gonna pay for this, or, like, I'm gonna expect you to pitch in with this. And then when friends didn't respond well to that, like, I think he had to distance himself from that a little bit. And sometimes that just happens. But sometimes I think it's also that people. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. You know, sometimes people don't real might not realize they're taking advantage. You know, if you are so quick to grab the bill or you're throwing money down, you know, you know, extra money that you don't need to throw down just to be safe and, like, cover them, they might not even be thinking about it. They might not, like, be aware that you're doing that kind of stuff. So, again, I think if you start feeling like you're in that place where you're being taken advantage of and it's getting really bad, you can pull back. You know, there are ways that you can just pull back or you can just be direct and have the awkward conversation with a friend and say something like, you know, hey, I've noticed that, like, I'm usually one throwing down the credit card for the meal. And. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that. What do you think? You know, I don't know. There are ways that I think you can go about the conversation that don't have to be confrontational, but can still be direct.
- [22:31]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. You interviewed two women friends and how they've navigated the growing difference in their incomes over the years. I think they've been friends. I think you said, like, 20 years, something like that. And part of. I think what helps them evolve as friends is that they have history and they also share a lot of similar values. For newer friends, it's probably a little bit trickier. Right. We're quick to maybe judge. We're quick to give up on the friendship, especially if we arrive already with disparate income. Whereas I think these two friends that the gap grew over the years, and maybe they started out more or less on the same plane. I mean, in your 20s, like, you know, maybe you're making a little bit more than your friends, but you're still early in your career. So, yeah, everyone's struggling. Like, you Got maybe someone's making more, but they have student loan debt. So it's like some, some sort of leveled playing field. And then, you know, maybe things change. And I just wonder, do you think there's a difference? Is it harder for friends that are a little bit newer and there's already this existing wealth gap? We tend to go with the herd and sometimes that means we go with the financial herd. You know, it's like the friends who. It's just easier. It's easier to hang out with friends that are making roughly around the same amount of money or have the same means.
- [23:53]
Kristin Wong
Yeah, There was a study that came out recently that kind of, you know, touched on this and it found that when you, gosh, they had a term for it was like cross, not cross cultural, but like, anyway, when you are friends with people in a different economic bracket than you, like it's upward mobility becomes much easier. But that's very rare. Like it's mostly exactly as you said. Like we kind of tend to hang out with the people who are similar socioeconomic background to us. But they found like that one of the big drivers of leveling the playing field for people was cross, whatever they called it. Gosh, I wish I could think of the word for it was like. But basically, you know, coming together across income gaps. And so I thought that was really interesting. But you know, I do think it's, it's hard when you're first starting out in a friendship and that there's a big wealth gap. It's. Yeah, of course it's going to be hard if you don't, you know, if the friendship is new and fresh to like navigate that. But that's probably true for like anything that comes up in a friendship. And the thing that the, the two women I interviewed in that piece, Hyla and Natalie, said that made their friendship work was that they had shared values when it comes to money. And I think that's a really big part of it. They both kind of believe that your net worth is not your self worth and money is just kind of a number. And you said this earlier about how people just make different choices, you know, and those choices sometimes can earn you more money. Choices in what they decide to do with their career, they can make you more or less money. But I think you can't figure out if you have shared values with someone until you, I don't know, have those sticky conversations with them. You know, it's hard to deepen a friendship if you're not gonna, if you're not going to Talk about things that are on your mind. So, you know, maybe it all goes back to if you want a deep friendship with somebody and a meaningful friendship with somebody, and ideally, that friendship would survive any kind of wealth gap. You have to. You have to have those sticky conversations.
- [25:52]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Did you ever watch the movie Friends with Money?
- [25:54]
Kristin Wong
No, I have not.
- [25:55]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Oh, you have to watch that. I would think that would have been like research for your New York Times space. It's Jennifer Aniston and it's about these four friends in la. So this is. You're gonna love this movie. All are from different economic backgrounds.
- [26:08]
Kristin Wong
I think we're always, like, looking for ways to figure out how people are dealing with their money too, you know. So you see a friend making choices that you wouldn't make with your money, and you try to come to conclusions about how they value money. And sometimes those conclusions are dead wrong.
- [26:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, I mean, look at Anna Delvey. That's another extreme case, right, where the. Was it the faux hair heiress or whatever? She went to jail, but she defrauded. A lot of people, pretended she was rich. And in that portrayal, you know, wearing the designer clothes and acting like she, you know, was rich and also treating a lot of her friends to these lavish dinners, the friends were having a great time, you know, taking them on vacations and trips. And I think that we can also be falsely misled by the friends who seem to be rich or are rich. You know, we think, like, this is going to be a better quality friendship, you know. What are some of the. The misperceptions you think that people have about friends with money?
- [27:06]
Kristin Wong
People probably have a lot of different, different kinds of assumptions they make about friends who might have money. It maybe just depends on who you are. Like, it's easy to assume they know what they're doing. They have their shit together, you know, like they. They must be making some good choices in their life. And that's not always the case. But I think it's also very easy, at least for me, to villainize is a. But to kind of, I don't know, think that somebody who has a lot of money doesn't share the same values as I do or something like that, you know.
- [27:42]
Farnoosh Tarabi
That's a good point.
- [27:44]
Kristin Wong
Yeah. That they must be kind of greedy or money hungry or very driven by their career and capitalism. And they don't really, you know, they're not like me. They don't, you know, value the same things that I do because they're so driven by money. And that's also just not true. And I'm not saying I actively consciously believe that, but I think sometimes that kind of stuff seeps into our subconscious and we make judgments about people that aren't necessarily true.
- [28:11]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. So it sounds like for the relationship, the friendship, to work, I'm hearing that it requires a lot of honesty, releasing ourselves of certain assumptions that we are grown up to believe. I mean, it's hard, right? These are hard things to overcome. We tend to personify what money is like. We give it so much power. It's like it's just. It's just money.
- [28:37]
Kristin Wong
Yeah.
- [28:37]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And at the end of the day, we're all people. That's the most important thing. And money doesn't change who we are necessarily, but it can, like, amplify who we are. And it sounds like you're also saying, and what you've learned from your reporting is that the values is really what ties the friends together. And you can have shared values even though you might have different paychecks.
- [28:55]
Kristin Wong
Yeah.
- [28:56]
Farnoosh Tarabi
So, Kristin, were there other factors at play in these friendships that just made the financial dynamics more complex? Whether it's like one friend has more privilege, one friend has just lived a life experiencing more discrimination bias.
- [29:11]
Kristin Wong
Yeah. You know, when I talked to Asia Evans, she brought up this topic that when there's some kind of wealth disparity, financial disparity in the friendship, it can point to larger social issues that might be driving that disparity. For example, if you are somebody who identifies as non binary or you're trans, you know, you might have added struggles that your cisgender friends might not see, whether that's like fitting into a traditional workplace, you know, just facing everyday discrimination from a landlord or something like that. And, you know, from your friend's perspective, they might see the playing field as being completely level. They might not see these added challenges that exist for you.
- [29:55]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Well, my friend who was like, well, I mean, working in finance is just your choice, and if you want to make a lot of money, you just choose to work in finance. And I'm like, that's not so straightforward for everybody. Not everyone can choose to work in finance. I know people who really, really wanted to and then did, but then eventually left because they did not feel welcome for a variety of reasons. So it's not. Yeah, I think if that was my friend, I think they, we would have a debate. And, and it can be a healthy debate, but it would still be something to bring up. Where are you looking to explore next when it comes to psychology and money? Are you working on anything good right now?
- [30:38]
Kristin Wong
Yeah. Thank you. I am. I have, I do have a newsletter that I write semi regularly called Untranslatable and it covers a lot of these topics. It's, it's kind of a personal newsletter, but it's social science science focused and I think it covers a lot of the topics that we all and the questions we all struggle with.
- [30:57]
Farnoosh Tarabi
All right, we'll make sure to put that link in our show notes. I'll continue following your work and I love all your all your stuff. Thank you for coming on and giving us some insights is also some some strategies for how to navigate wealth gaps in your friendship.
- [31:11]
Kristin Wong
Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
- [31:15]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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