← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1837: Salary Talk, Wedding Guilt, and First Date Bills: A Financial Etiquette Deep Dive
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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Hey, this is Farnoosh Tarabi from the Sew Money podcast. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but ordering supplies shouldn't be one of the ones you don't like. Walmart Business helps organizations like yours save time, money and the headache of managing purchases. From office essentials to bulk break room snacks, it's all in one place, online, in store, or right in their app. Sign up for free@business.walmart.com and get back to what really matters running your business. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And when you show up in a Range Rover Sport, you don't have to say much at all. This is the vehicle for those who lead with quiet confidence, where power, poise and performance speak louder than words. The Range Rover Sport combines a dynamic sporting personality with refined elegance and agility, delivering an instinctive drive that feels as purposeful as it looks. Its distinctly British design doesn't shout for attention, but it gets it. And when the road changes the terrain response to system with seven drive modes adapts like a seasoned traveler. Inside luxury is not an add on, it's a standard. Breathe easy with the cabin air purification system, enjoy serenity with active noise cancellation, and explore in comfort, whether you're gliding through city streets or carving through winding country roads. There's even a plug in hybrid engine option with an estimated electric range of 53 miles because even raw power can be smart. Explore Range rover sport@range rover.com us that's rangerover.com ussport so Money Episode 1837 Salary Talk, Wedding Guilt and First Date A Financial etiquette deep dive.
- [01:46]
Daniel Post Senning
You're listening to so Money with award.
- [01:48]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life.
- [02:09]
Daniel Post Senning
Welcome to so Money. If you're uncomfortable talking about money, I think being clear that you can set a boundary around that can really be helpful in terms of not responding emotionally or feeling aggrieved or someone's intruding upon you. If you feel more comfortable saying I'm really not comfortable talking about my personal finances at work over dinner in this context and that can be enough. It doesn't need to be a criticism of someone else for bringing it up or for asking the question or raising the topic, but you can set your own boundaries. And I think that can be a liberating experience for people.
- [02:46]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Welcome to SO Money, everyone. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Let me ask you, what does it mean to be well mannered with your money? We're getting a masterclass in modern financial etiquette from Daniel Post Senning today. He's the great, great grandson of the Emily Post and co president of the Emily Post Institute. Emily Post wrote her groundbreaking book Etiquette in 1922 and became America's foremost authority on gracious living and good manners. And in this episode, we're going to dive into the real world etiquette dilemmas of today. Splitting the bill, tipping in an era of digital checkouts, talking salary with your co workers, navigating wedding costs, and even how to disclose your use of AI at work and outside of work. We'll also explore what's changed and what hasn't when it comes to good behavior in our professional, financial and personal lives. Let's get into it. Daniel Post sending Welcome to Sew Money. It's great to have you.
- [03:48]
Daniel Post Senning
Thank you so much. It's good to be here.
- [03:50]
Farnoosh Tarabi
We have so many questions about etiquette these days. It seems like in the world of zoom meetings and working from home and of course, the pandemic, socially isolating ourselves for a while. We have some catching up to do on proper etiquette as it applies to work etiquette, social etiquette, financial etiquette. Your family has a long history, a celebrated history of really being at the forefront of etiquette. Why don't you talk a little bit about that for us? I think that's so exciting and we're so grateful to have you as a as now third generation of the Post family continuing the good work.
- [04:28]
Daniel Post Senning
Totally. And it's bad etiquette to correct. So a fifth generation of the post generation.
- [04:33]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Oh my gosh, no.
- [04:35]
Daniel Post Senning
And etiquette is a hot topic right now for all kinds of reasons. The I think the stresses that new technology, particularly new communication technology has put on our social systems is one thing that people have been dealing with but got accelerated in that pandemic environment. There's also the return to work that we're all familiar with. It feels like that's something that's happened already, but it's still something that people are processing and trying to figure out. And I think traditional etiquettes, etiquettes that have been handed down for generations can really be a guide when we find ourselves in new and newly challenging situations. Those very durable social expectations can give us Good clues about how to operate in this new space. But one other thing that is really clear from a five generation perspective on etiquette is that etiquette is not static. It changes and evolves all the time. It requires us to stay fluid, stay aware of core principles that are at the heart of good etiquette, as the specifics, as the particular manners. Expectations change, as circumstances change.
- [05:42]
Farnoosh Tarabi
So what do you think etiquette means today in today's world? And how is it different from say when you were growing up or. I was growing up, sure.
- [05:51]
Daniel Post Senning
Let me share an insight that I learned from something I read from my great grandmother. And I think it's an insight that made her advice impactful and popular at the time. And I think is part of the clue to the durability of that advice. And Emily said whenever two people come together and their behavior affects one another, you have etiquette. Etiquette is not some rigid code of rules or manners. It's simply how persons lives touch one another. And I love this idea that fundamentally etiquette is about the quality of the interactions that we share with the people around us. And when we think about it like that, I love to challenge people to think about the relationships that matter to them, the people that matter to them, and then to think about how the interactions with that person feel. And that's what etiquette is, not how we feel about them, but how our interactions with them feel and what that experience is like.
- [06:45]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, that's a great explanation of it. And I, and I wonder, would Emily or you have any sense of a shortcut for etiquette, like when in doubt if you're in a situation and we're going to get into some specific scenarios, but generally speaking, is it that the default, like proper etiquette, is having empathy, being respectful, if in doubt of what to do in the situation.
- [07:15]
Daniel Post Senning
I think you've clued on one that is one of our core principles. We talk about good etiquette, etiquette and behavior that benefits or grows, relationships and communities being based on consideration, respect and honesty. And that if you have those three things, if you're thinking about other people, if you're valuing them, and if you're holding yourself accountable both to truth telling, but also to a standard of sincerity and authenticity, that other things start to happen very well, a sense of kindness emerges, the capacity to empathize emerges. But we really use core principles, consideration, respect and honesty to guide us when there isn't a particular manner or rule, or the situation feels awkward, or there's a difficult relationship issue where there isn't a particular rule that applies.
- [08:03]
Farnoosh Tarabi
I have to say I love watching these videos, these tutorials online, like how to drink your wine at parties or you know, where to put your purse on your chair. This is not what this episode is about. We're going to actually get into some harder things. I think stickier things like financial etiquette, workplace etiquette. What do you find, Dan, are some of the most common financial awkward scenarios people find themselves in? Some money related etiquette dilemmas that we face today? Increasingly, yeah, I think people find it.
- [08:33]
Daniel Post Senning
Difficult to talk about money and I think this is really understandable. There's a very old traditional etiquette that said you didn't talk about money and I think that sense of privacy around it is really beneficial in some circumstances and helpful in a lot of ways socially, but puts limitations on people and challenges people. Some and different people have different feelings about the degree to which financial issues should be considered private. So I think conversations about money are particularly challenging if we were to narrow it down. Those conversations emerge at the end of a meal. Who's going to pay the bill or how much are we going to tip? Those are perennials. Another one is how to divide expenses for a wedding. We're currently working on our the latest edition of our wedding book and there are some really, really personal, familial financial discussions that happen as people are planning weddings to another place. I oftentimes find myself giving advice on how to talk about money.
- [09:34]
Farnoosh Tarabi
As I'm listening, it sounds to me like sometimes the dilemma is that we carry into the world of etiquette these traditions, these time honored principles. Whether that's we're a family that doesn't talk about money or we're a family where if you're the father of the bride, you pay for everything at the wedding. And it doesn't really align necessarily with where people are at today in 2025. If you are someone who's holding on to we talk about this a lot on the show. Carrying some of our financial baggage is putting it not nicely but let's just say history into our lives as adults and there's some reconciliation that's required. But what do you say to that person who's maybe holding on to etiquette that's not serving them.
- [10:23]
Daniel Post Senning
I think that we all have to stay flexible and adaptable and we also have to honor ourselves. Respect for yourself and where you come from is part of the etiquette equation as well. And if you're Uncomfortable talking about money. I think being clear that you can set a boundary around that can really be helpful in terms of not responding emotionally or feeling aggrieved or someone's intruding upon you. If you feel more comfortable saying, I'm really not comfortable talking about myself, personal finances at work, over dinner in this context. And that can be enough. It doesn't need to be a criticism of someone else for bringing it up or for asking the question or raising the topic. But you can set your own boundaries, and I think that can be a liberating experience for people. The other thing that I tell people on the other side of the equation, if you like to talk about money, maybe salary equity is something that really matters to you, but you're aware that, or hopefully you're aware that for some people, talking about salary isn't a comfortable thing or isn't an expected thing that you raise the topic with that awareness. Hey, I'm really invested in salary equity and I'm curious, are you comfortable talking about salaries or even what you make? That question alone shows a lot of awareness, a lot of consideration for someone else. It gives them an out from the conversation if they want to have it. But it also opens the door to a conversation that could be rich in terms of its value, important in terms of social equity.
- [11:58]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Thank you for saying all of that, because I do think we live in a world, especially around the salary conversations, where some people may feel pressure to disclose. There's a whole chapter in my book In a Healthy State of Panic about the fear of exposure. And it gets to this idea of not everyone needs to know everything about you all the time. There is something to be said about keeping some things close that are personal to you. But I think what I'm hearing from you is doing so in a way where you're communicating around that you are setting the boundaries and not putting down the other person who has a different etiquette around this.
- [12:34]
Daniel Post Senning
Absolutely. This is one of those places we talked about. Very traditional etiquettes can be helpful. So there's a very traditional guideline around navigating conversations, particularly conversations in public. We talk about there being three tiers to a conversation. Safe topics, sports, weather, pop culture, immediate shared experience, the food, the traffic, the weather. The second tier, potentially controversial if I say it in a seminar. Everyone raises their hands. Religion, politics, dating, or your love life. People have strong and different opinions about these things. Tier 3 surprises some people, it's the most personal. We talk about ff, family and finance. So familial relationships and Finances and the rule around conversations in Tier 3 are that you don't ask a probing or personal question unless someone's opened the door. And just keep that little thought in mind. Some people love to talk about their kids. Some people would really rather not. They open the door, have that conversation. It's a great way to build rapport and get closer. Take the same approach with conversations about money. Open the door, test the waters, see how it works, and really hold yourself accountable. Don't ask the probing question unless someone has invited it in some way or you've gotten permission.
- [13:50]
Farnoosh Tarabi
All right, let's talk about it. And you brought it up first. Tipping. This is going to be where I think listeners are going to lean in and maybe turn up the volume a little bit. It's getting a little out of hand. I love to tip. I tip all the time. I tip on things I probably don't need to be tipping on. But it's ubiquitous with now you go to the coffee shop and maybe you don't even get a coffee. You just get a muffin which is already made. It was delivered on a truck. Do you pay a tip for that? But they're going to ask, so what is the etiquette now? Especially in this digital, hyper digital world, we're making transactions very quickly. The assumption that you'll tip is paramount from the vendors always ask, maybe even if they know, like it's not necessary. It doesn't hurt to ask, what should you do?
- [14:38]
Daniel Post Senning
Oh boy. Okay, where to begin? Let's start from 60,000ft gratuity, same root as the word gratitude. Let's keep the gratitude in gratuities. And that's the way they function the best as an explanation, expression of thanks, of genuine appreciation for a service performed or something someone has done or a product. The I think the easiest way to do that is to feel good about what you're doing and to understand what you're doing and feel confident and comfortable doing it. So I want to divide tipping into two categories. There's tipping for sit down service at a table where someone is bringing, taking your order, bringing your food, clearing afterwards. That is not optional tipping. It is a rock solid part of the social contract. We don't protect the people that provide that service with the same minimum wage laws that we protect everyone else, even the people in the back who are washing the dishes. It really is a different system and it's very state to state. There's federal laws and there's state by state laws. The reality is that industry functions with an expectation that people are going to tip 15 to 20%. And it's an important thing to understand before you sit down. That's part of the social contract. And you should expect to pay that 15 to 20% when the meal is over. If you're not comfortable doing that, you want to ask to talk to a manager or owner. And this is if the meal is served and the service is so bad and you're saying to yourself, I'm not going to tip that much. I couldn't. I wouldn't. That means that you're also accountable for explaining why you didn't. It means something went so horribly wrong that the establishment would want to know about it. You're essentially saying, I don't want to pay full price for this meal. Every other situation falls into a very different category. And by that, the counter service that you just described, where you walk up to the counter and they hand you the muffin and they turn the iPad around, and now there's three suggested tipping.
- [16:30]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Amounts, and it starts at 30%. I'm just kidding.
- [16:33]
Daniel Post Senning
It might. And one thing I tell people is don't blame the establishment. A lot of places are, are installing these new payment systems. They come with default tipping settings that they might know about, they might have set, but oftentimes it's just part of new technology, part of a new payment gateway, part of a system that the person who's standing behind that counter has maybe no control over, or the person who even installed that system or owns the establishment might have less awareness of or control of than you think. I tell people that tip is entirely discretionary. It's entirely up to you. You can hit one of those suggested amounts. You can hit no, thank you. One of my favorite options in that moment is the other amount. And then I do what's comfortable for me, what I would do if it was the change in my pocket or the change that was handed back to me if we still used physical money. If I'm more comfortable with something around 5 or 10% for counter service and the first suggestion is 15, 20, or 30, I'm completely comfortable. I'm at ease. In fact, it makes me feel better about the experience to hit that other amount. 5, 0, make sure the decimal point's in the right place. And I'm not tipping $50, I'm tipping 50 cents and I'm out the door. And I think really being ready for that moment and knowing what you're comfortable with and feeling comfortable doing it allows you to make that tip feel good about it, approach it as A true gratuity. Something that shows appreciation for something that someone's done. You remember my cup of coffee Every day it's waiting for me when I get to the counter. You saved me that blueberry muffin because you know how much I love it, whatever it is. Sometimes that service is worth more than the 10%. Sometimes it's someone that really makes your day a little better every day. And you like to show that appreciation. Don't feel obligated, but feel in control so you can feel good about doing what is going to really make you and that other person feel good.
- [18:25]
Farnoosh Tarabi
That's a perfect answer. I think it gets a little fuzzy, I think when you're, gosh, you know, when I order one one too many times on one of those food delivery apps and there's what they automatically charge their own service fee. But then there's the driver tip and that's always a range. I don't think tipping the driver like 20% of your meal is what is appropriate there, although that's. Those are the options. They give you like a percentage of your food bill. And I feel like there it's more of a flat rate, not always the same rate. But if it's a box of pizza from two miles away, maybe it's a five, eight dollar tip. If it's like an order for ten people at my house and it's multiple orders and then it goes up. But I think that's where a little bit just putting yourself in their shoes helps. The driver's shoes. If you were actually taking time to do this with your gas, with all the orders, you know what would feel worth it to you? It's not $2 and it's not $35 either because it's a four minute drive. And really I should just go get it because at this point I'm wasting money. This is my thought bubble every night at dinner.
- [19:35]
Daniel Post Senning
The confusion around the service fees that are oftentimes listed. And sometimes that coffee shop has a 10% service fee. It's not up on the board, but all of a sudden it's on your receipt. Restaurants started some service. Some establishments started to do these blanket service fees during the pandemic. Some have dropped them, some have retained them. I am not a big fan of that. I don't think it's clear to people how those are distributed, how they're used. It is always okay to ask about a service fee on a receipt or a part of a billing process. Who does this go for? How much is it? Is it a percentage of the original total, is it a percentage of the total once all these other tipping and service fees have been added? Having clarity around what you're paying and to whom is an important part of making good choices for yourself. And I want people to feel really good about asking those questions and then proceeding with that knowledge in ways that make them feel good. Did this service fee go to the restaurant or is it going to the driver? Oh, you know what, it went to the restaurant. So this driver so far is untipped. That gives me a very different sense of where in that range from 5 to $30, I want to land.
- [20:42]
Farnoosh Tarabi
You gotta be extra careful these days. I think that's the tip on these tips, is that you just have to be mindful to your point. Where is my tip going? Who's not tipped here in this equation? Who needs to get tipped? And just being mindful of what you're buying, the experience and all the people that went into making it a good one and showing up for them, especially if they are, to your point earlier, a worker who's not making not even minimum wage, they're making restaurant wage, which is more, less than minimum wage. Let's. I want to get into weddings, but I also want to talk about money on the first date. I didn't prep you for this question, but I think you have some answers. This is. This will break the Internet over and over again, which is. People are so divided on this question of who should pay on the first date.
- [21:32]
Daniel Post Senning
And this is not a new question. This is a question that has had salience for the 20 years that I've been working at Emily Post and was a question that had history when I started my work at Emily Post as well. This is one where traditional etiquette can be really helpful. The very traditional guideline is that the person who does the inviting is the person who is the host, is the person who establishes the expectation that they will pay. So I like to tell people if you are someone for whom the very traditional gender roles are important, if you want to be the one who is paying, it's important to do the asking well, to ask in a way that is clear, that establishes it as an invitation that you've made that someone else is accepting, and that establishes you as the host, that's a good place to start. And then from there we can play. The understanding that for a first date, many people do not want to be treated has been around for long enough that everyone should understand the very good reasons why someone might not want to be treated. Some people don't mind at all letting the person who's done the inviting and wants to be the host to also treat to the meal. But if you don't want to do that and we also, it is okay. And we tell people who are asking, intending to pay that if someone else says, no, I would like to pay my way or figure out a way to split this so it feels more equitable to me. That is something that you should accept. That is not something that you should deny someone that, oh, I invited you, I insist that I pay in this.
- [23:08]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Situation, that's a red flag. I always say to people, if someone gets very strict about their need to pay for you because for whatever reason, I'm the man or whatever. Okay, thank you. You learn a lot about someone in that moment. I think it's very telling.
- [23:24]
Daniel Post Senning
I say you can offer again, no, but you can't insist and you can't demand it. And being willing and showing an understanding of why someone might want to contribute or pay for themselves, like you say, shows good social awareness and good awareness of. Of a current and very commonly held social expectation that early on someone might not want to be indebted after a first date. The and not everyone feels that way about it. So leaving room for a host to treat I think is important. I think it's something that some people really appreciate on both sides of the equation. So understanding the more traditional roles and knowing that if you want to play that role of host, that it starts off right from the beginning with the way that you ask and the way that you invite someone.
- [24:11]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, we need to have a chatgpt for you. We need. What would the posts say? You probably have this right? Like you gotta. It's gotta be like an app because when your dates in the bathroom, you're figuring out what's. What happens now? What happens when the bill arrives.
- [24:24]
Daniel Post Senning
I'll tell you, it's a little scary when you ask or test chat GPT and they give us very clear Emily Post constructions that aren't attributed. And I mean just the nature of these learning models.
- [24:37]
Farnoosh Tarabi
That's why you need your own proprietary search bot. All right, let's talk about weddings. Have you seen these people who are charging tickets to their wedding? Have you read these stories, Dan? Where. Where have we. What is happening to our society?
- [24:56]
Daniel Post Senning
Well, that very traditional hosting expectation that we just talked about working so well on first dates is clearly not well understood in the wedding space for some people. Although for most people it is still pretty clear that if you're being invited to a wedding, that Is not something that you should be expected to pay for.
- [25:14]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Made the news for a reason, because it's thankfully not a common practice.
- [25:21]
Daniel Post Senning
But there's no etiquette anymore. And I say I can prove to you there is by how aggrieved people feel when basic social expectations are not met or followed.
- [25:30]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, expectations is the operative word, especially when it comes to weddings, that there are sometimes misaligned expectations. Expectations. Because weddings are rooted in sometimes tradition, sometimes not. There are modern couples, and there are very traditional couples, and there are modern weddings and very traditional weddings. And then the culture plays a role too, what's expected at this wedding because of what the culture has informed the hosts and the guests. And so this, I feel, is such a complex arena. What are some of the good places to start from when you get invited to a wedding, when it comes to what you're going to buy for this couple, what you're going to gift them? And then what if you can't go for whatever reason? Maybe it's not because you're out of the country or getting heart surgery, but you just don't want to go because this is going to be a big hole in your pocket. And you love the couple, but you also love not being in debt.
- [26:26]
Daniel Post Senning
It's always up to you whether you accept an invitation or not. The real etiquette that you're on the hook for is responding to an invitation. So responding yes is okay, responding no is okay, not responding. Leaving someone with a question mark on their guest list is the worst thing that you can do. I find that people have a hard time saying no these days. And I just want to give everyone the permission to decline invitations. And that is for the dinner party on Friday, the get together barbecue on Sunday afternoon, or the important wedding or the maybe second cousin wedding that maybe doesn't feel quite so important to you. But yes is great. No is also great. Hosts can deal with. I know hearts will break all over the world because you can't attend, but really, they're going to be okay. And what they want to know is whether they need to plan a meal for you or not. And the question mark makes that difficult. That means they got to hunt you down. So respond yes, respond no. There was a traditional etiquette that regardless of how you responded, that you respond, that you replied to an invitation to a wedding with a gift, that it was such an honor, it was such a privilege to be invited, to be a part of that particular, incredibly special and important day in someone's life that it would inspire in you the desire to want to honor that moment, honor that experience, honor that event for them with a gift, a little something. And if you can find it in your heart to feel that way about it, I would encourage people to send a gift when they're invited to a wedding. It doesn't need to break the bank. It doesn't need to occupy a lot of your time. In fact, have a little list of go to wedding presents that you like to send out if you get an invitation to a wedding, whether you can attend or not. I'm a big fan of Simon Pierce Hand Blown Glass here in Vermont. I've got some local places that make really nice stuff and you can find a little something and just have it go and it becomes a really special, one of a kind, unique thing. Oftentimes it'll serve to remind them of you. If you can't make the wedding or if you didn't make the wedding, it's a nice way to honor and respond to that. Being invited. Some people think, oh, I was invited just to get the gift. Probably not. The reality is that most people are thinking about family and friend networks and they're trying to invite people to celebrate with them and really not questioning that motive, but asking yourself how you feel in response to being invited to someone's wedding. Send them a little something. It doesn't need to break the bank. You don't have to go and you don't have to send the gift. Gift. But wouldn't it be nice if they got a little something from you?
- [29:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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- [33:49]
Daniel Post Senning
And at a certain time in life, let's acknowledge too, there might be two or three weddings a summer.
- [33:53]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yes.
- [33:54]
Daniel Post Senning
Oh yeah. One wedding gets bigger and bigger and at certain times in our lives they tend to come in batches. It is again okay to say no. And it's okay to ask questions, particularly if you've been invited to participate in the wedding party, to be a groomsman or a bridesmaid or play any of those roles. These days more and more people are asking friends and family to be officiants. When you are asked, it can be really exciting. And keeping your wits about you, keeping your head and asking a couple of questions of the host or the couple about what their expectations are, what they're hoping to do with the bridal party or as the officiant are all really wise and sound things, that's before you commit. And it's okay to say no. It's okay to say that's more than I can tackle right now. It's if it's something that you genuinely want to do but can't, it might give you some wiggle room to talk with them about how much you would love to do it. But the time commitment or the expense isn't something realistically that you're going to be able to keep up with. Having those conversations is facilitated by getting that one layer more of information before you say yes. Which is where I think the awkwardness starts to come into play where, oh, I've said I want to do this. It was my best friend, I wanted to do it. And all of a sudden now I'm supposed to go to Bermuda for this, and then I'm supposed to come home and it's going to be another weekend of that. And that can really start to feel like an imposition. And an ounce of prevention can be worth a pound of cure before you find yourself in that situation.
- [35:22]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And so for the hosts, maybe not make it like an absolute, you must necessary thing, right. That you. I would say to just again, comes down to communication. Talk a little bit about. This is what I would love and I would totally understand it if you could only do part of it or some of it. I'd love for you to be a part of all of the celebrations. But I think giving your guests a little bit of that flexibility, knowing that you're not going to shut them out of your life if you don't do everything that they have planned is the good etiquette as well.
- [35:55]
Daniel Post Senning
Such a good point, really keeping the focus on the relationship. And I always tell people, don't assume that other people understand your good intentions. It's okay to make them explicit. I would be so excited to have you do this. I understand if you can't. Can be enough to maybe even tip someone over to saying yes when they were thinking, oh, this is a maybe just knowing that they're dealing with someone who's sane and rational. We often say to people, whether it's talking with potential participants or whether it's the families talking or whether it's the couple talking with people that might be helping them to pay for the wedding, that it can feel really difficult. But it's important to have your discussions that involve money be open, candid and honest that these are going to be hard limits for people that this. We might have emotions or feelings about the way the money is being used, but the actual money itself, the amount of it that's available and how it's going to be distributed is going to set the hard limits for a lot of things. In relation to this event and how people participate. Being willing to deal with that reality and really do your best to separate your emotions from that discussion and those that information sharing is an important part of the process and doing it well.
- [37:09]
Farnoosh Tarabi
A couple questions about business etiquette and then I want to finish by revisiting AI with you, Dan. But your new edition of Emily Post's Business Etiquette tackles everything from from hybrid meetings to zoom dress codes. I have a funny story about that. What's the biggest shift you've seen in workplace norms Post pandemic?
- [37:30]
Daniel Post Senning
Post pandemic. To me it's the skills that we acquired in that distributed and remote work environment coming back with us to shared office spaces. So everyone got a crash course in zoom meetings and team meetings and the video conference. It was really interesting to watch during the pandemic the way social expectations crystallized for the business world. For the first six months of the pandemic, everybody was so generous. Oh, wasn't it funny? Kat jumped on the computer and shut off the presentation in the middle of everything. Ha. It was almost like I watched it turn on a dime. About six months in, the correspondence we were getting at the Emily Post Institute shifted to can't people just get it together to do this? Right.
- [38:14]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Right.
- [38:15]
Daniel Post Senning
We're all making an effort to be here, to have our cameras on. This one person never turns their camera on. We know that they're sitting there in their pajamas and they're just not participating. And it's great that they show up on the call, but no one can see them. And a bad look for our team. Patience and the understanding just weren't there in quite the same way. And the shift became let's be sure everybody understands what the expectations are and that people meet those expectations at least to a set of share of minimum standards.
- [38:42]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Standards.
- [38:43]
Daniel Post Senning
And bringing those newly established shared minimum standards back with us I think is really important. Your calendar as communication is another skill that I think we've learned as part of remote and distributed workforces that the ways that we make ourselves available, book time with others and show other people the way we're working through calendar systems is another vanguard front of business etiquette and business communication that people are still reckoning with and figuring out, but is at the center of a new set of expectations and courtesies for white collar professionals.
- [39:21]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the future of work is still to be determined. There's a lot of push for hybrid. I saw a report the other day in New York going to four days a week Maybe New York City. And it's hard because there's so many, so many schools of thought now on how to work. Whereas before the pandemic, it was like one way. You showed up to work, you knew the dress code, you knew how many hours you had to clock in before you could leave. It was not cool to leave at 3 o' clock in the afternoon every day. But now if you're online, who knows? Who knows where you are?
- [39:57]
Daniel Post Senning
Okay, so this is one of those other, the, the other thing I love to tell people about this return to work etiquette question and the next generation entering the workforce without the experience of shared office spaces as something that is part of the way they grew up in business is that we've got the new manners we've learned, but also the very traditional manners that have been around for three, four, five generations can still serve us very well. Say hello at the start of the day, say goodbye when you leave. It was a standard expectation when you showed up in that physical work environment. It still is. It allows for a couple grounding social interactions that really humanize us with each other and make our relationships one that isn't just about the stressful work that we're bringing to each other, but an acknowledgement of each other's humanity that provides a baseline for all the other work that we do. And when you're in those remote environments, if you can figure out a way to simulate it, it can function to let people know you're not bailing at three every afternoon. If you send a message on that, that DM or that office chat that is being used as part of the remote work environment. Hey, signing off at 4:55. And you make a habit of just saying goodbye to people in whatever the is. It's a new application of a very traditional etiquette. It still serves to connect you to the people that you're working with. And it defines the workspace and the shared work environment in a way that's functional and practical and helpful.
- [41:26]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Yeah, I always appreciated that when I was working internally at a company during the pandemic, it was new to me because I worked very. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a solopreneur. And then I, I'm in this new culture that's corporate and now completely online like it has. I had not worked in an office since 2009 and it was just all new to me. But I would notice people who were more versed in the online work culture and we were using Slack. They would be very good about letting you Know when they were available, when they were not. There's little emoticons or little, like, messages you can put at a dentist appointment or back in a little storefront, back after lunch or something like that. And I thought that was so cute and so helpful, really. At the end of the day, I want to talk about AI again. When it comes to disclosure around AI, you know that maybe you used it to write an email or you use it to get answers to a question about work, about your relationship, about your health, that there are some people that are very AI first, they love it, they get it, they want to maximize it. And then there are others that are very afraid of it. And then there are others that, like, think it's the worst thing ever. So how do you know how to disclose if you are that person, say, who is very pro AI to share that because you don't want to be suddenly someone that's not to be trusted, or it can kind of paint a picture of you unfairly.
- [42:54]
Daniel Post Senning
Absolutely. We'll go back to core principles. Consideration, respect, honesty. And the potential trouble if people feel that you are being disingenuous or representing work that was not yours as yours is a place where you can do fundamental damage to a relationship and you want to be really careful. And I tell people when you're using AI for work product that you're going to be sharing either internally or externally. When it's not just for your own research purposes, you can't avoid it. In some ways, it's the nature of search. Now, it's the nature of a lot of research. But when you're talking about shared work, acknowledging where that work comes from I think is critically important. And it's a defense. It's a defense against the impression that you're being dishonest or disingenuous or disingenuous. And I think that it is worth the precaution to protect your reputation when you're talking about something as fundamental as trust with other people. So making it. And I like the way you framed the whole question, how do you handle disclosure? I say be. Be ruthlessly honest with yourself about your accountability to that disclosure. Make it a practice, make it a part of how you use those tools. And hopefully for the early adopters or the. The cutting edge or the bleeding edge or whatever, those. That very first edge of adopters are your ambassadors for this technology as well as early advocates and beneficiaries of it. And thinking of yourself as being a little bit responsible for introducing people to good uses and appropriate uses can be Another way, hold yourself accountable and to feel good about those types of disclosures and even informing or instructing people about good ways to use these systems. When I hand off chapter research to Lizzie Bose, these were the prompts I use. This is the ways that I phrase these questions and got these results and got this information. It's not mine. I didn't go and comb the web and do that work. But. But this is the way I was involved. This is the way the other system was involved. And this is what you've got in front of you and where it came from and how it was produced, I think is a really good standard to work with.
- [45:03]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Thank you. For me, AI, we're all students right now. We're all testing it, we're all learning. And I think it's okay to do that. But yeah, to talk about it is more important with others.
- [45:15]
Daniel Post Senning
When I joined Emily Post In 08, my cousin Anna was doing a lot of business presenting for us. And this was right when this iPhone was launched and it was just completely disrupting the work world. It was the new technology of the time. And I'll never forget her doing a seminar. She holds her phone up in the air. She says, this is my brand new iPhone. She says, it's not rude, it's not polite. It's just a phone. It's how I use it that matters. And then she puts it down on the table and proceeded with the talk. And I was thinking to myself, the same thing is probably true of AI it alone isn't rude. It is alone isn't polite. It's really going to be how we use it that matters.
- [45:50]
Farnoosh Tarabi
How special is the Emily Post Institute that it has retained so many family members all of these generations? What do you think it is about the vision, the culture, the mission that five generations later. Right. Going strong.
- [46:04]
Daniel Post Senning
I like to credit Emily. I do think that she had. She was a strong writer, but I think she was insightful. I think she had a real vision for how etiquette functions and works for people. And it's something that was handed down personally in her life to her family and. And there was a record of it because she was writing about it all the time. And she updated her book for 10 editions in her lifetime, started that work of showing us how etiquette changes and evolves and how to track that. And it's a real privilege. It's a real privilege to be part of that legacy and part of that tradition and to carry it on. And it continues to be relevant because we need each other. People are not functional in isolation. And we live in a country in America that places a lot of value on the individual and individual achievement and, and that's important. And there's a lot of important value there. But understanding how we function collectively, how we function as communities and groups, groups and in relationships, is something that is always going to be important because it's intrinsic to the human experience, for sure.
- [47:08]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Daniel Post, great, great grandson of Emily Post, co president of the Emily Post Institute. And you have a great podcast everyone. Check out awesome etiquette. Thank you for joining us.
- [47:20]
Daniel Post Senning
It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [47:24]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Thanks so much to Daniel Post, setting for joining us us links to his podcast, their website and more about the Emily Post Institute in our show Notes. I'll see you back here on Wednesday. And I hope your day is so money.
- [47:49]
Daniel Post Senning
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Farnoosh Tarabi
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Farnoosh Tarabi
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Daniel Post Senning
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