1862: A Financial Plan for Non-Earning Partners

Summary

Episode Summary: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi – Episode 1862: A Financial Plan for Non-Earning Partners

Release Date: August 6, 2025
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Anna Goff

---

Introduction

In Episode 1862 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi, host Farnoosh Torabi delves into a critical and often overlooked aspect of personal finance: the financial vulnerability of non-earning partners in a relationship. Joining her is Anna Goff, a former stay-at-home mom who transformed her personal struggles into a powerful advocacy for financial autonomy among caregivers. This episode provides an insightful exploration of the challenges faced by non-earning partners, the importance of financial transparency in relationships, and actionable strategies to safeguard one’s financial future.

---

Anna Goff's Personal Journey

Anna Goff opens up about her decade-long marriage, during which she transitioned from a dual-income household to becoming a full-time caregiver. She shares how the absence of financial transparency led to significant vulnerabilities:

• Early Marriage and Financial Dynamics:
  “We started out our lives like on a level playing field making about the same amount of money... we didn't really think about a prenup or anything like that.” (06:45)

• Transition to Full-Time Caregiving:
  As Anna took on the role of a stay-at-home mom, she gradually relinquished her financial independence. She recounts the moment her financial autonomy was compromised:
  “I had a debit card and that was it. So he had to call and get me a hotel room since they lost my luggage... I had to have him put money in the account.” (04:58)

• The Breaking Point:
  The lack of access to the joint account and limited financial control became untenable, leading Anna to demand equal access:
  “If you don't put my name on the account that your paycheck goes into, I'm leaving. I can't be financially controlled like this.” (12:24)

---

The Importance of Financial Transparency

Anna emphasizes that financial transparency is not merely about access to money but about fostering trust and partnership within a relationship:

• “If you have a credit card with your partner and they're able to take that away... it's not truly yours. It's not truly your access.” (14:02)

• She highlights the ease with which one can hide financial assets without proper communication:
  “It's very easy for there to be... a completely other financial life that you don't even know about.” (14:04)

---

Steps to Financial Autonomy

Anna outlines actionable steps for non-earning partners to protect themselves:

1. Demand Full Financial Transparency:
   “Ask to see the statements. Not just a spreadsheet... have the real transparency.” (19:20)

2. Set Clear Financial Boundaries and Expectations:
   Establishing boundaries ensures that the non-earning partner’s contributions are recognized and compensated:
   “If you can afford to pay your stay-at-home parent salary, which I think is a great idea... it allows them to have some autonomy in their money.” (19:20)

3. Utilize Legal Protections Like Prenups:
   A prenup can formalize financial arrangements and safeguard assets:
   “Having something like a prenup or really having everything laid out there... you can really stand on your own two feet as an individual.” (36:02)

---

Navigating Divorce and Rebuilding

Anna shares her experience navigating a challenging divorce without prior financial preparation:

• Discovery of Hidden Assets:
  During the divorce process, Anna uncovered multiple undisclosed financial accounts:
  “He brought me statements that I had never seen in our 17 years of marriage.” (15:09)

• Legal Challenges:
  The mediator’s perspective on inheritance and personal accounts complicated the financial settlement:
  “The mediator deemed it non-marital, so it would have grown to $600,000.” (18:13)

• Rebuilding Financial Independence:
  Post-divorce, Anna took deliberate steps to regain her financial footing:
  “I bought the house that we lived in... I am building the life that I want and trusting myself for the first time.” (33:41)

---

Custody and Its Financial Implications

The conversation shifts to the impact of custody arrangements on financial stability:

• Advocating for Shared Custody:
  Anna advocates for 50/50 custody to ensure both parents remain actively involved and financially supported:
  “I demanded 50/50 custody... I needed time to work.” (28:11)

• Balancing Parental Responsibilities and Career:
  Shared custody can prevent the defaulting to a sole caregiver role, which often hampers financial independence:
  “You're in divorce court, it two things matter. Money and custody.” (27:11)

---

Mindset Shifts for Financial Empowerment

Anna emphasizes the importance of mindset in achieving financial autonomy:

• Recognizing Economic Value:
  Acknowledging the financial contributions of caregiving roles is crucial:
  “Invisible labor right of being a primary caregiver... if I'm not getting time off, then I become an unhappy person.” (24:35)

• Valuing Independence Within Partnerships:
  Viewing the relationship as a partnership where both individuals maintain their financial independence strengthens the union:
  “We have this business, our family, our household that we're running... it's the CFO doesn't do the same thing as the CIO.” (31:16)

---

Practical Advice for Couples

Anna provides strategies for couples to foster financial transparency and partnership:

• Communicate Like Business Partners:
  Framing financial discussions in a business context can reduce defensiveness:
  “Talk to him like you're speaking to a business partner... let's be on the same page.” (31:16)

• Set Mutual Financial Goals:
  Establishing shared financial objectives aligns both partners towards common goals:
  “These are our financial goals. We're trying to retire... we're trying to buy a house.” (31:43)

---

Rebuilding After Divorce

Anna shares her journey of rebuilding her life and financial independence post-divorce:

• Investing in Real Estate:
  Purchasing the family home provided stability and a foundation for rebuilding:
  “I bought the house that we lived in... building the life that I want.” (33:41)

• Pursuing Passion and Purpose:
  Transitioning to a career that aligns with her passion for empowering women:
  “I have a calling to help women, to empower women.” (33:41)

---

Conclusion

Episode 1862 of So Money with Farnoosh Torabi is a compelling narrative that underscores the necessity of financial autonomy for non-earning partners. Anna Goff’s candid recounting of her struggles and triumphs serves as both a cautionary tale and a roadmap for individuals seeking to safeguard their financial futures within relationships. The episode emphasizes that financial empowerment is integral to personal independence and relational health, providing listeners with both inspiration and practical strategies to achieve financial security.

Notable Quotes:

• “I can't be financially controlled like this.” – Anna Goff (12:24)

• “We have this business, our family, our household that we're running.” – Anna Goff (31:16)

• “I'm choosing to be with this person not because I have to, but because I want to.” – Anna Goff (36:02)

Resources Mentioned:

• Anna Goff’s Course: Protect Yourself Without a Paycheck – Link in Show Notes
• Follow Anna Goff on Instagram: @mess_GOFF

---

For more insights and practical financial advice, tune into So Money with Farnoosh Torabi and empower your financial journey today.

Transcript

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Hi, it's Farnoosh. Are you building a personal brand or business and craving real behind the scenes support? I'm reopening my intimate mentorship program, Farnoosh bts and applications are officially open. It's my four month mentorship program to help fast track your success. You'll learn all my strategies across all the different verticals from podcasting to writing books and I'll connect you with very important people in my life. Applications are available at varnushbts. Com. I look forward to helping you Foreign.

[Montclair Film]

This episode of the Montclair Pod is brought to you by Montclair Film, our town's hub for film storytelling and community connection. From thought provoking indie screenings and Q&As with acclaimed filmmakers to improv nights, live performances and classes in filmmaking, screenwriting and much more, Montclair Film offers something for everyone who loves the power of a story. It's also home to one of the country's premier film festivals each fall drawing audiences and talent from around the world. Right here to Montclair. Want to see what's playing or sign up for a class? Visit montclairfilm.org for the full calendar of events and ways to get involved. Now on with the show.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Hey so Money friends, I know many of you are thinking about starting your own business or you're already in the trenches making smart, strategic money moves. And if that's you, I want to personally recommend a podcast that can seriously help you get to that next level. This is Small Business what I love about this new season is how real it gets about something we talk about a lot here. Risk Every episode shares honest stories from founders who faced tough financial decisions, taken bold but calculated risks, and made it through the highs and lows of building a business. Host Andrea Marquez breaks it all down in a way that's actionable and relatable. You'll hear exactly how these entrepreneurs tackled things like funding, pricing, and know knowing when it's worth betting on yourself. If you're looking for real, practical insights that can help you move forward with clarity and confidence, this podcast is it. Follow and listen to this Is Small Business now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, don't wait to start making smarter money moves today. Lately, I've been turning to quince for just about everything. Clothes for me, pieces for my kids, even stuff for the house. If you don't know quince yet, they make high quality, timeless wardrobe staples like cashmere sweaters, linen sets, silk tops and.

[Anna Goff]

Denim for a fraction of what you'd pay elsewhere.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And with this late summer heat wave, I just picked up some new linen tops and bottoms because I was running out of the good stuff. Everything from Quince fits beautifully and feels amazing. Light, breathable and effortlessly polished. I also grabbed a few new bathing.

[Anna Goff]

Suits for my daughter, who's growing faster than I can keep up.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

The quality is just as good, if not better, than more expensive brands. And that's the beauty of Quince. They work directly with top factories, cut out the middlemen and pass the savings to us. Most most pieces cost half as much as similar luxury items, and they're made with premium fabrics in safe, ethical factories. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com sewmoney for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I-N C E.com somoney quince.com somoney so Money Episode 1862 A Financial Plan for Non Earning Partners.

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Karabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoose yourselves. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.

[Anna Goff]

I didn't have a credit card at that point. I didn't like we had a joint account but no money went into it. If it did, it was like his allowance for me and I actually found I went back to Colorado to do makeup for a wedding and flight got canceled, baggage got lost, things like that. And I was without a way to pay for a rental car or a hotel. I had a debit card and that was it. So he had to call and get me a hotel room since they lost my luggage. I had to buy clothes so I had to have him put money in the account. And that's when I came back home and I was like if you don't put my name on the account that your paycheck goes into, I'm leaving. I can't be financially controlled.

Welcome to SO Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

What happens when you devote your life to raising a family, stepping away from the workforce, supporting your partner's career, managing the household, only to realize one day that you have no financial autonomy? You have been left in the dark.

[Anna Goff]

About your own future.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

In this episode we're joined by Anna Gough. She's A former stay at home mom turned fierce financial advocate and she's opening up about her own journey through marriage, motherhood and a very eye opening divorce. Anna's story is very raw and revealing and it underscores a reality too many women face being financially vulnerable in a relationship, especially without a paycheck of their own. We unpack what true partnership looks like, how to create transparency around money before it's too late, and the exact steps Anna recommends for any caregiver or non earning partner to protect themselves emotionally, legally and financially. Ana also has a very accessible and deeply practical course. It's called Protect Yourself Without a Paycheck. It's very affordable and offers critical tools for women navigating these exact challenges. If you're interested, we have that link in our show notes. Let's get into it.

[Anna Goff]

Anna Goff, welcome to Sew Money.

Thank you. Nice to be here.

Very nice to meet you. I follow your work online. You stopped me in my scroll recently on Instagram.

Very hard to do that, I must say.

You were talking so articulately about the importance of being financially protected as especially as a woman in a household where you are not earning a paycheck out of the home because you are the caregiver, the primary caregiver in the home. And we've done many episodes on this show about about it, but I think it always deserves a refresh. And your personal story attached to this is also very powerful. So maybe before we get into your advice, you can share your own personal awareness around this and what drove you to share with others.

Yeah, so I was a stay at home mom for a long time, but the term stay at home mom is used very broadly. So when my ex and I got married, we were in our 20s. We started out our lives like on a level playing field making about the same amount of money. We each had a little bit of inheritance. That's about it. We really didn't have and by a little bit, it's a little bit we didn't have a whole lot. And so we didn't really think about a prenup or anything like that. We were starting together. We were in love. We thought prenups were for the wealthy older man and the younger woman to prevent her from taking everything from him. Right. We were married for a few years. We both worked. When I got pregnant, I had just, I was just wrapping up. I went back to school to be an esthetician and so I found out that I was pregnant. And instead of going and starting working, I knew, we knew that I was going to stay home and so I just started staying home. Then I did have a side hustle that I was doing and then I just started supporting him in his career. So I naturally started taking over all of the cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, laundry, ironing, dry cleaning, like all of the things to make his life easier. And admittedly I gave, I allowed that to happen and down the line became a little bit resentful that he didn't contribute at all.

But.

But I was trying to earn my keep in the beginning. And so our daughter was born. I was staying home, he was traveling a lot. We lived in Colorado at the time. He was traveling to New York and I was working a little bit, basically just to pay a babysitter to have something to do to get out of the house. And then his career was growing. I was supporting that. We had our second child and I really went back to work almost full time. I was a makeup artist. I did weddings, events, commercial work and basically had to work in the nooks and crannies of the day and. And then hired a nanny that he subsequently made me pay for because it was my choice to work. Oh, red flag. So I was paying for the nanny even though he made a lot more money than me. And then I was also not allowed to do more than a certain amount of work on the weekends, which weddings are on the weekends. So I tried to cram it during the week. And then we moved to Pennsylvania for his job. So I gave up my business to do that. He was traveling about 3,000 miles a month when we moved there. And it was only going to be a two year deal. I made the deal going in saying, okay, it's two years, it'll be fun, we'll live close to the city, whatever. And that turned into seven.

Wow.

And it was hard because we didn't have family support. We were in a new place. The Philadelphia area, I wouldn't say is necessarily the most warm and inviting group of people.

I used to live in the suburbs of Philly. Yeah, it's a little.

Yeah, it's hard to break into.

Yeah, they're very clicky.

A lot of family there. And so it was really difficult as a mom with. I had a five year or almost five year old and an almost two year old. And we just decided it made sense for me to stay home. And I was doing some makeup, some photo shoots, some different things like that as fill in. I had a kid in preschool, one going into kindergarten and was super busy. That's like how it turned into Being that full time stay at home mom. And then his job became so demanding that I never knew when he was going to be home or not. He was working constantly.

All right, so now you've been married, what sounds like 10 years?

We had been married about 10 years when we were like, when we moved to Philadelphia.

At what point did you start to really worry about your financial security?

So there was basically during that whole time, I was asking for more transparency. In the beginning, he wasn't making a lot of money, and so we did spend a lot of what came in. But when I was having to pay for the nanny and all of that, that became very clear that it was almost like a control dynamic that he was having. He's like, this is your choice. You don't have to work. If you do, you have to pay for this sitter. And so that kind of started to make me worry. We also. I didn't have a credit card at that point. I didn't, like, we had a joint account, but no money went into it. If it did, it was like his allowance for me. And I actually found. I went back to Colorado to do makeup for a wedding and flight got canceled, baggage got lost, things like that. And I was without a way to pay for a rental car or a hotel. I had a debit card and that was it. So he had to call and get me a hotel room since they lost my luggage. I had to buy clothes. So I had to have him put money in the account. And that's when I came back home. And I was like, if you don't put my name on the account that your paycheck goes into, I'm leaving. I can't be financially controlled like this. Like, we've been married a decade. I had kids with this person. I had just moved across the country and given up all of my support system and my business. I was like, what am I?

Yeah. Trying to understand his perspective. We never really talk about that on the show because it's obvious it's wrong, but it's. I'm just like, what was the rationale for him when you had that very, I think, clear and appropriate ask of, I need to be as invested in our financial lives and as involved in our financial lives as you. We are a household. We are a two person household. How did he receive that?

He said he understood. I just, I said to him, I was like, would you want our daughter to marry somebody that treated them this way? Would you want our daughter to feel completely helpless, completely on an island, like, without anything? When she's married to. To somebody who's supposed to care for her. And I do think that kind of made him a little more aware of actually what was going on. But in terms of access to the finances, he did get me a credit card. I wasn't. I was a signer on his credit card. So there's a difference. And that's something that a lot of women, I don't think, understand. If they have a credit card with their partner and they're just able to use the card, he's also able to take that away. He can say, I don't want her to have access anymore. So it's really not truly yours. It's not truly your access. I also didn't have any idea what was going on with our investments or what other accounts we had. He had a lot of other accounts. I came to find out in his name that I wasn't even aware of something like seven other checking.

Wow.

It's going on.

Yeah. It's so easy. I think this amplifies why it's so easy for there to be. And I don't want to say it was like going behind your back or something or that it was borderline fraudulent or whatever, but it's very easy when there's no communication and no transparency for one person to have a completely other financial life that you don't even know about.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think what happens a lot, and what I hear from a lot of women, is when women bring this up, and this is what happened to me, is it's half yours if we get divorced. And I would say, I don't want to have to get divorced to have a purview into our financial picture. I want to stay married.

Or what I've also heard is that if they die, there's a life insurance policy. I'm like, so that's your hope, is that if you become widowed, then you would be financially taken care of and have money of your own. Got it. Okay, so fast forward to you're getting divorced. How is this all now manifesting for you as a single woman, as someone who is fighting for what's yours in a divorce without a prenup?

Yeah, we ended up. I moved to South Carolina. We bought some franchises. I was moving down ahead of him. He was still working in Pennsylvania, so the kids and I moved down. We bought a second home. I was supposed to be starting these businesses. And then the plan was, eventually, this would help with the golden handcuffs. Right? Allow him to kind of transition down and us to all be Together in South Carolina. What happened is he started to get very freaked out about me opening these businesses. He admitted later that it was partially because he thought if I had money, that I would leave.

Oh, there it is. There it is.

There it is. And I think what happens a lot is that, like, fear and ego are the same thing. And I think a lot of this control that happens to women around money is the fear and the ego that men are feeling about not relinquishing their control of their finances, but opening it up. Right. And having a true partnership and being really transparent. And so what happened when I moved down, I was trying to open this business. I was about to sign the lease, but because he had all the money, it was all in his name. Even though I was 99% owner, he wouldn't go forward with it. And so I was down here with the kids. He was also drinking a lot. And so there was that component that I was very, like, helpless in. And I know that the stress was very hard on him to be away from the family. I'm sure he felt us growing more distant. I was taking care of everything by myself down here for two years. And, yeah, it did. I'm sure it was hard. It was hard on all of us. Right. But what happened is, when we ended up splitting up, he came to me and was like, all right, this is half of every. This is what everything looks like. And brought me statements that I had never seen in our 17 years of marriage. I. He did manage to not tell me about a certain. A retirement account at first, but then that came out, and the little inheritance that we had used to look for financial fortitude as we moved through our life, it was growing, and so we had that as backing. It helped back our business and other things. And we used some of the money for things. He hired a forensic accountant, and I was trying to go do mediation and not fight, not go to court and all of these things. And the mediator was like, it's a gray area. Like, you have been. It's all about intention. And when it comes to inheritance and how that's handled. And he's. You have been using it, but you haven't contributed to it. So the court could go this way or this way. And even though he said, this is ours, this is part of our retirement that we're using, the mediator deemed it non marital, so it would have grown to $600,000. Wow.

Oh, gosh.

Small. Right? But we had been together for so long, and that was part of our financial picture. It wasn't like we're saving this for him to buy some house somewhere else. And so I think that was very shocking to me. Also the growth of the small little retirement account that he had when we were 25 from a job that he had left grew and he also kept that.

Oh my gosh, Anna. Okay, but you're good now, right?

You're good. We're good, we're good. Oh my gosh.

Thank you for sharing all of that. We, to go there with us is not a small thing. And I know you've been. This is your platform now. You want to help women and men because it helps everybody. When there is transparency. This is not just about him versus her. So now looking back at all of this, you now with 20 hindsight is 20 20. But when you give advice to a woman who's about to, you know, become that stay at home parent, that full time caregiver, or is it, what's your top three pieces of advice? Financial advice?

Yeah, I would say ask to see the statements. Not just a spreadsheet. So a lot of people are given a spreadsheet. This is what we have really know the logins have that real transparency. I think a lot of times we as women allow the man to take care of the finances because we think they're going to be better at it than us or they're the one earning the money. And that's not the case. Right. So together it should be collaborative. What you do with your money. This is your family money. And so I think the first thing is transparency. You have to know what's happening. And I used to say you're traveling 3,000 miles a month. If you're in a car accident, I don't even know how to pay our mortgage. And that's the case with a lot of people. So that's number one. Number two is really set clear boundaries for clear expectations for what you're doing, going to receive as a stay at home parent. So if you're taking time out of the workforce, you're also taking time out of the market and you're not allowed to contribute to a 401k anymore. So you need something like a spousal IRA, you need to be compensated for that time. And if you can't afford to actually pay your stay at home parent salary, which I think is a great idea if you can afford it because that allows them to have some autonomy in their money, be able to go and buy gifts for their partner or buy a pair of shoes and not have to like feel guilty about it. And I think that autonomy makes them feel appreciated and if they can't pay it up front, put it in a postnup and say for this number of years that you're home you are entitled to a hundred thousand dollars a year or $50,000 a year or whatever. So there is a lump sum payout for that time that you have spent out of the workforce. It takes a long time to get back into it. If you've been home for a decade, you can't just jump back into a six figure salary. You have to work your way up and you've become accustomed to a lifestyle. Your children have become accustomed to a lifestyle and it does take time to get it back. And you're healing too.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

My best friend and I are planning another trip to escape from the day to day. Yes, that's right, a vacation. Just because just the two of us, no kids, no work, just fun. We've been browsing Airbnb's guest favorites from the Hudson Valley to Charleston and the hardest part has honestly been narrowing it down. There are so many beautiful, unique homes that feel like they were made just for a weekend escape like this. Behind every great stay is someone making it all happen. And often it's a co host working behind the scenes. Airbnb's Co Host Network is a smart way for Airbnb hosts to to get help managing bookings, answering guest questions, and making sure the place is ready for every guest. It's perfect for people who want to earn extra income but not take on the full time job of being a host. Find a co [e-mail] host you know that feeling when it's midnight and your brain just won't shut off the to do list, Tomorrow's meetings, the million things on your plate. That's me most nights until I tried bowl and branch. My husband and I both tend to overheat at night, especially during these warm summer months. But but since switching to Bolan Branch's Per Kale sheets, our sleep has totally transformed. They're light, crisp and incredibly breathable. Honestly, it feels like slipping into a perfectly made hotel bed every night. What I love most is how they're made. 100% organic cotton, no toxins, and crafted by artisans who are paid fairly. And they come with a 30 night worry free guarantee so you can really feel the difference. I noticed it the first night, how soft and cool the sheets felt and with every wash they just keep getting better. Feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make with Bolen Branch get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bolenbranch.com SewMoney that's Bolen Branch B O L L A N-D branch.com SewMoney to save 15% and unlock free shipping, exclusions apply. Lately I've been turning to Quince for just about everything. Clothes for me, pieces for my kids, even stuff for the house. If you don't know quince yet, they make high quality, timeless wardrobe stap like cashmere sweaters, linen sets, silk tops and.

[Anna Goff]

Denim for a fraction of what you'd pay elsewhere.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And with this late summer heat wave, I just picked up some new linen tops and bottoms because I was running out of the good stuff. Everything from Quince fits beautifully and feels amazing. Light, breathable and effortlessly polished. I also grabbed a few new bathing.

[Anna Goff]

Suits for my daughter, who's growing faster.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Than I can keep up. The quality is just as good, if not better than more expensive brands. And that's the beauty of Quint. They work directly with top factories, cut out the middleme and pass the savings to us. Most pieces cost half as much as similar luxury items, and they're made with premium fabrics in safe, ethical factories. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com sewmoney for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com somoney quince.com SewMoney.

[Anna Goff]

When you're a forward thinker, the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward.

It's a lot. I also think, as you're sharing your story, that there are mindset shifts that also need to happen. This idea of what it means to be a contributor in a household that even though you don't earn a paycheck, you still have financial value. You're bringing economic value to the family. The fact that you were willing to stay home full time and raise the family and do all of the things right. Not just do all of the things, think of all of the things too. There is a sort of, we call it the invisible labor right of being a primary caregiver. Thinking about meal planning, thinking about those doctor appointments, worrying about your student, your kids and their grades and their social groups and all of that where if you're the traveling parent, you you have the luxury of not being involved in any of that. And so before you get into maybe having a family or deciding who's going to be home and who's going to work, if that's your arrangement, are we on the same page with that? At least there's an appreciation. So even if I want to get a babysitter, that's not an expense for me. That's an expense that all of us are benefiting from.

Right?

Because if I'm not getting time off, then I become an unhappy person. I burn out. And guess what? None of this would work without me.

And you're entitled to have a life too. This isn't some luxurious vacation that you're on when you're staying home and managing everyone's things. And can you imagine being at work 24 7? Like you don't even get to sleep when those things are small. I can remember begging for enough time to sleep. And I think those expectations, not just the financial, the three financial expectations that you asked about, like the last thing is really, what are the expectations for the household? How are we each going to contribute to the household? Because I like to say couples really need to shift their minds and start thinking about it as being co CEOs of the family. Yeah, it's the CFO doesn't do the same thing as the CIO, but that doesn't mean that anyone is any less important to the business. And that's what you're running. People want to sugarcoat it in love and everything, but when it comes down to it, when you're in divorce court, it two things matter. Money and custody. And that's it.

Let's talk about custody because we have done episodes on this show about how typically in a divorce, when there are children involved, the mom gets either full custody or majority custody. And, and that is often just the default in custody battles. It's not really a rational decision. It's just that's how it's always happened. Moms are best. Kids want to be with their moms. But what ends up happening, what ends up leading into is that now you have a woman who is single mom who is primarily taking again, care of two kids without any help. And also coming out of a marriage probably where she is financially less than than the husband, she has to revive her career somehow make money on top of the fact that now she has sole custody, which is a burden, right? Because time is money. If you don't have time to go out there and make money because now you're saddled with all this child care. So how did you think about that as you were getting divorced?

Yeah. I, I demanded 50. 50 custody.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Great.

[Anna Goff]

Yes.

I knew that. Right. Like, number one, nobody will fight. No man will fight for custody like a man who wouldn't let you have 15 minutes in the shower alone or who you had to ask to babysit for your children. So I think for me, I was like, you need to be empowered to be a father. Like, you had traveled, you've done all these things. I need to, I needed, like you said, I needed time to work. I knew that if I had my kids all the time, I would default back to that stay at home mom mentality and I would never be able to get ahead.

Yeah.

And when you are the, eventually you want to move on, you want to date, you want to do all that. If you have to manage childcare, working, building a career, managing a home, paying a mortgage, all of those things. Like, it is hard if you have sole custody. And I know for the mama heart wants to take over and be like, I do this best, and you probably do, but kids need their dads.

They do.

And it's good for them. It's good for a man to have to step up and step into that role and realize, like, how much work it is. Yeah. And I think the hard shift is to learn to appreciate the time that you're not with your kids because you're thinking about what are they doing, I'm missing them, are they cared for, like I would care for them, all of those things. But I think once you can shift to, this is the time where I can remember who I was, who I am, what I want, focus solely on what I'm trying to build, then I think you can enjoy that time, you know? Yeah.

And I think along the way, you're modeling important stuff for your kids that, like independence is important. Financial independence as a result of having time, it leads to good things. A lot of women, and I know this whole conversation has been about heterosexual couples, but I think that the financial dynamics that we're talking about often are gendered. And not to say that they don't happen in same sex relationships, but by and large, this is a conflict and a, And a real problem. When women are raised to have a certain relationship with money and men are raised to have a certain relationship with money. And in a relationship now, in a hetero relationship, that can sometimes be at odds. So there's a lot of fear. Speaking of, women are raised sometimes to be like, they're fed lies. Right. You're not as good at money as Your brothers or your. It's a man's domain. And so we arrive in a marriage where we defer that responsibility. We. We willingly give up that autonomy to our male partners. And so there is this underlying fear, even bringing up, like, hey, maybe I was wrong about that. I think we should talk about money as a couple. I think we need more transparency. How do you recommend couples break that ice? And usually it's the woman leading that. That conversation because she's the one that's needing it more than him. She needs the autonomy.

And I think a lot of people are scared to have that conversation because instantly, for both, it can send up red flags. Does this mean she's leaving me? Does she want to leave? Why does she want to know? I'm handling this. Like, the only reason she would want to know is if she wants to leave. And so I think what I always tell my clients is, talk to him like you're speaking to a business partner. Bring it up. Hey, we have this business, our family, our household that we're running.

We have this contract called marriage.

Exactly. And I really want to be more a part of that. So I can feel like we're on the same page. So we can feel like a team. So when we say. When you say, don't buy that. Don't go to Target and spend $300 this week, you know why. Right. You know what the bills look like. You can say, we are on the same page. These are our financial goals. We're trying to retire. We're trying to buy a house. We're trying to buy a car. And so I think if you look at it like, hey, I want to be a part of this. I want to help support our family and what our goals are financially, then I think it takes it from. I want to know, because are you hiding things? Or I'm going to take half or whatever to, like. Like, let's be a team in this and make sure we're on the same page so that we can make smart decisions. Because I used to say, let's talk about a budget. Like, I want to know what we're comfortable spending instead of feeling criticized when I spend what you deem to be too much or something that wasn't worth it. Okay, let's sit down and talk about it. And so I think it's important to be on the same page. And so if you talk to them like a business partner and say, hey, let's be on the same page with this. Right. Typically goes a little bit better than, you're lying to me. Or hiding money.

Yeah. Or I feel like you're doing this thing to me. Yeah. Just hear the facts. I always say if you need to use this podcast as just throw me under the bus to, like, this crazy woman, Farnooshe. I was listening to her podcast, and she said something interesting that, you know, or Anna Goth. I saw her online, and she was saying this. I think your honesty is going to go a very long way in saving so many women's financial lives and their autonomy. How are you doing today? And maybe you can share a little bit about the deliberate steps you took as a single mom to rebuild your financial autonomy.

Yeah. I think it's difficult because you want to keep everything the same for kids. For your kids. So one of the things that I decided to do, which I struggle with at times, is I bought the house that we lived in. Sometimes everyone thinks, oh, stay in the home if you can. But sometimes that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I weighed the options for a long time and ended up buying the house. So that was one thing for me, that was a big step. I am building the life that I want and trusting myself for the first time. I think that's really important. I have an integrative health background also. And so I was like, do I do this or this? And I was like, you know what? I have this calling to help women, to empower women. And so that's the lane that I went down. And I'm so glad I did, because this isn't about, like, divorce or getting what you deserve. It's about empowering your relationship and really feeling like you're on the same page and hopefully preventing divorce, because finances are such a huge issue for people, and it becomes such a sticking point. And so I think for me, it's. It was trusting that I could do this, trusting that what I was doing was right and that it was going to work out, that the universe is conspiring for me, not against me.

Yeah. Thank you. We just have to remember who we are sometimes, which in the shuffle and hustle of being a parent and your life's moving so quickly, you forget what you're capable of. You forget of who you were in your 20s and in your 30s. And I think your advice is hitting home at a time when so many people are in midlife, on just waking up to this. And we've done episodes about all the other things that are happening in midlife at the same time. A lot of transitions, body transitions, health, family. You're in a sandwich generation It's a lot's on your plate, but I think this is important. We have to prioritize our financial independence.

Yeah.

In a relationship, we don't always think of ourselves as independent. In a relationship, two different, two opposite words. You're either in it or you're not. But it's so important because it's what actually makes you stronger. For each person to be strong, they can be stronger together.

Yeah, I agree. My grandma always said you have two circles, me and we. And, you know, the we is together, but you have to be able to stand on your own own, too. And I think the benefit of having something like a prenup or really having everything laid out there is that two people who know all the facts are coming into a relationship where they know the rules of the game. When you sign a marriage license, a marriage contract, there's not 10 pages or 20 pages. It's one page and you're like, I love you. Let's sign this. Yeah. It's not if this, then this, if this and this. And that's what it really is. And so I think by having everything documented, having full transparency, you can really stand on your own two feet as an individual and say, I'm choosing to be with this person not because I have to, but because I want to and because I love this person and I want to build a life together.

Anna Golf. Thank you so much. I knew this was going to be such a powerful time. And tell us where we can follow you and reach out if we want to work with you.

Yeah. So you can follow me on Instagram. It's mess Anna with two N's, G O F F. And I am actually just about to open up a mini course that kind of walks through how to protect yourself without a paycheck. Amazing thing that a lot of women could benefit from.

Yes. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thanks so much to Anna Goff for joining us. A link to her course, protect yourself without a Paycheck is in our show notes. I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnouche. And I hope your day is so money.

[Montclair Film]

This episode of the Montclair Pod is brought to you by by Montclair Film, our town's hub for film storytelling and community connection. From thought provoking indie screenings and Q&As with acclaimed filmmakers to improv nights, live performances and classes in filmmaking, screenwriting, and much more, Montclair Film offers something for everyone who loves the power of a story. It's also home to one of the country's premier film festivals each fall, drawing audiences and talent from around the world. Right here to Montclair. Want to see what's playing or sign up for a class? Visit montclairfilm.org for the full calendar of events and ways to get involved. Now on with the show.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

If you're alignment in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing. Which is why you can count on Grainger for professional grade products and next day delivery. So you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

Looking for a high yield savings account or car insurance? I've curated my go to financial tools all in one [e-mail]. these are the resources I trust, presented in partnership with Money Magazine. So moneylinks is no overwhelm, no fluff, just solid vetted options to help you save more and stress less. Somoneylinks. Com. Check it out.