1873:  The Power of Lean Learning in the Age of AI with Pat Flynn

Summary

Podcast Summary

So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode 1873: The Power of Lean Learning in the Age of AI with Pat Flynn
Date: September 1, 2025
Guest: Pat Flynn, entrepreneur, author of "Lean: How to Achieve More by Learning Less"

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how to adapt and thrive amid AI and information overload through Pat Flynn’s “Lean Learning” philosophy. Host Farnoosh Torabi and Pat discuss focused, intentional learning; breaking out of “just in case” learning loops; and concrete frameworks for skill acquisition, entrepreneurship, and personal growth. The conversation offers actionable advice for anyone feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure how to best invest their energy and attention in a noisy, rapidly-changing world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem of Infinite Content & Information Overload

• Scarcity to Abundance: Information is more abundant than ever—what was once a limited resource now saturates every digital space.
• Drawbacks of Over-Learning: Constantly consuming—podcasts, books, videos—can scatter attention, fuel indecision, and prevent meaningful action.
  • “It’s almost as if we’re treating information like it was a scarce food source… today we aren’t just at a buffet line of information. We’re getting force fed information from algorithms and platforms.” (Pat Flynn, 05:37)
• Danger of Over-Inspiration: Being inspired by too many directions at once often dilutes follow-through and results.

2. The Lean Learning Mindset

• Strategic Learning: Focus on acquiring and applying only what’s relevant, just when it’s needed.
• Application is Key: The magic happens when you apply the right information at the right time, for the right reasons.
  • “It is the application of the right information at the right time for the right reasons. It’s when you match those three things that you find magic.” (Pat Flynn, 06:54)
• Just-In-Time vs. Just-In-Case: Learn what you need, when you need it (“just-in-time”), instead of stockpiling knowledge “just in case.”

3. Facing Fear, Uncertainty, and Taking Action

• Learning as Safe Haven: When people feel stuck or fearful (e.g., economic downturns), they often escape into learning rather than acting.
• Pat’s Own Story: After being laid off, Pat almost fell into the “grad school as escape” trap, but instead created his first successful eBook by breaking the work into steps and learning just what he needed.
  • “If this were easy, what would it look like? Well, I would just open up Word and get this thing down. And I did.” (Pat Flynn, 09:54)
• Importance of Force Functions: Sometimes external pressure (“I was moving back home, I was getting married, I had a reason to take action now”) is required to catalyze action.

4. Practical Frameworks for Focused Progress

The 1-1-1 Method (For Entrepreneurs)

• Find one person in your area of interest.
• Identify one problem they have.
• Help achieve one result for them.
  • “If you can’t find one, you can’t find more. So let’s start in the beginning…” (Pat Flynn, 13:23)
• Build confidence, clarify value, and avoid building blindly for imaginary audiences.

Inspiration Matrix

• Recreational Inspirations: Hobbies, low-pressure joys, essential for recharge.
• Passion Pursuits: High-energy interests you’re hungry to master.
• Critical Commitments: Obligations, responsibilities you must fulfill.
• Junk Sparks: Fleeting interests, distractions that don’t drive long-term satisfaction or results.
  • “Having a hobby that you can kind of go back into… that balance is key.” (Pat Flynn, 21:20)
• Offers a diagnostic to regularly audit and reorganize what deserves attention in your life.

The 20% Itch Rule

• 80% of time: Core commitments and existing priorities.
• 20%: Controlled experiments—playful pursuits, side projects, creative risks.
  • “This is something that has turned into multimillion dollar businesses… with the extra time that I allow myself to do these things again in a controlled manner…” (Pat Flynn, 02:07 and expanded at 25:24)
• Enables growth and innovation without abandoning stability.

5. AI: Opportunity and Caution

• AI as a Tool: Use AI for brainstorming, idea validation, and as a sounding board, not a replacement for uniquely human skills.
  • “I enjoy using AI as a collaborative brainstorming partner… I use Claude specifically to almost be a representation of my audience so that I can see how it may react to certain things first and I can get in front of that.” (Pat Flynn, 27:17)
• Implementation Over Information: In an age when AI can deliver information and produce work, the real differentiator is how quickly you can learn, implement, and tell human stories.
  • “Utility is no longer information. Utility is implementation and learning and discovery through those experiences.” (Pat Flynn, 29:43)
• The Enduring Value of Story & People Skills: Empathy, communication, and storytelling will always be needed in an AI-saturated world.

6. Advice for the Next Generation

• Skills to Raise Kids By:
  • Executive function: Organization, time management.
  • Interpersonal skills: Communication, collaboration, problem-solving.
  • Learning how to learn: Rapidly acquiring and applying new skills as needed.
  • “Whether they choose to become entrepreneurs or not, even if they’re an employee…they can be a version of that that uses entrepreneurial skills to better themselves, their lives and the company that they work for.” (Pat Flynn, 32:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Information Overload:
  “We aren’t just at a buffet line of information. We’re getting force-fed information from algorithms and platforms that show us things we didn’t even know we needed.”
  — Pat Flynn (05:37)

• The Core of Lean Learning:
  “It is the application of the right information at the right time for the right reasons. It’s when you match those three things that you find magic.”
  — Pat Flynn (06:54)

• Just-in-Time vs. Just-in-Case:
  “The difference…between just in case learning, which is what we’re all doing, and just in time learning, which is finding the right resources at the right time.”
  — Pat Flynn (12:29)

• The 1-1-1 Business Building Rule:
  “Just find one. And if you can’t find one, you can’t find more… and finally, when you get that person that result in whatever way… you’re going to unlock the confidence that this is actually something that can happen.”
  — Pat Flynn (13:31)

• Recreational Inspirations:
  “When it’s empty, it’s dangerous because that means there is nothing that you can sort of go back to, to recharge.”
  — Pat Flynn (21:07)

• Junk Sparks:
  “Fleeting distractions… This is why controlling what comes in, only allowing yourself to… learn about what matters to you right now… is important.”
  — Pat Flynn (22:35)

• On Experimenting Safely:
  “20% of my time I allow for play, for experimentation, to scratch that itch… if that were to fail, that’s okay because I still am committed to the other thing.”
  — Pat Flynn (25:24)

• On AI’s Limits:
  “The power of storytelling… this is something I think AI will never fully get right… And how quickly can you pick up new things and implement them — that’s going to be valuable.”
  — Pat Flynn (29:07)

• Parental Wisdom:
  “Are you beginning to understand how the world works and are you getting better at learning things, whether it’s something you’re interested in or not?”
  — Pat Flynn (31:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------| | 02:07 | Pat introduces the 20% Itch Rule and its business impact | | 05:37 | Discussion about the modern challenge of information abundance | | 08:40 | Pat’s layoff experience and the dangers of avoiding action by over-learning | | 09:54 | “If this were easy, what would it look like?”—pat’s practical approach to action | | 12:29 | “Just-in-time” vs. “just-in-case” learning and why it matters | | 13:23 | The 1-1-1 Method for starting a business | | 20:51 | The Inspiration Matrix explained | | 25:24 | Deep dive into the 20% Itch Rule and controlled experimentation | | 27:17 | How Pat leverages AI in his work and creative process | | 29:43 | Why implementation, not information, is the new utility | | 31:21 | Farnoosh and Pat discuss preparing kids for the AI age | | 32:40 | Essential life skills for the next generation: learning, communication, collaboration |

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Conclusion

Pat Flynn’s “Lean Learning” framework offers actionable strategies for mastering the art of focus in a world of infinite content and accelerating change. By shifting from hoarding knowledge to intentional learning and action, leveraging frameworks like the 1-1-1 Method, the Inspiration Matrix, and the 20% Itch Rule, listeners are equipped to build successful businesses (or lives) with clarity, minimize burnout, and thrive in the age of AI. The episode is filled with stories, reflective questions, and practical advice making it a must-hear for entrepreneurs, lifelong learners, and anyone overwhelmed by too many options.

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Recommended Next Steps:

• Reflect: Audit your own learning habits — are you acting just-in-time or just-in-case?
• Try the Inspiration Matrix: Identify your true passions, necessary commitments, and junk sparks.
• Experiment: Allocate a “20% itch” window to safe, controlled projects.
• Invest in uniquely human skills: communication, storytelling, collaboration.

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Transcript

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[So Money Host Announcer]

So Money Episode 1873 the Power of Lean Learning in the Age of AI and Infinite Content with Pat Flynn.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Khourabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers from Farnoosh, yourself looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.

[Pat Flynn]

If you're just unwieldy with all the interest that you have, you're going to go nowhere. So I've created something called the 20% itch rule and this is something that has turned into multi million dollar businesses actually with the extra time that I allow myself to do these things again in a controlled manner, almost like a petri dish if you will, where I'm experimenting. And if that were to fail, that's okay because I still am committed to the other thing. So 80% of my time I am working on things that I've already said yes to, that I'm committed to my responsibilities, et cetera. 20% of my time I allow for play, for experimentation to scratch that itch One thing at a time for a certain period of time until it's over.

[So Money Host Announcer]

Welcome to Sew Money, everyone.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I'm Farnoosh Tarabi.

[So Money Host Announcer]

Our guest needs little introduction if you've spent any time in the world of online entrepreneurship. Pat Flynn is one of the most respected thought leaders in digital business and passive income. He's the creator of Smart Passive Income, the host of multiple top ranked podcasts, a sought after speaker, and the author of several best selling books including Will It Fly and Superfans. And now Pat is back with a timely and much needed new book called Lean how to Achieve More by Learning Less. In an age when we're drowning in information pulled in a dozen directions by the algorithm, Lean learning is a practical framework for mastering new skills efficiently without burning out or going broke in the process. We talk about the danger of over learning and why too much information can backfire. The difference between just in case learning and just in time learning. Pat's 111 method for launching a business with zero overwhelm. And you just heard him talk about the 20% itch rule and how it's led to lucrative projects for Pat and others. Here's Pat Flynn.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Pat Flynn, welcome to SO Money.

[Pat Flynn]

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be, to be here and for you and I to be chatting again. It's been too long.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

It's been too long. But I just want to first start by saying to you and all my listeners that so Money is not where it would be without the inspiration from Pat Flynn.

[Pat Flynn]

Oh my gosh, yes.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I mean, we, I don't know, we met 10 years ago probably when I was in the trenches of just trying to figure out how to podcast and you were already off to the races and you had been so generous with your, with your guidance and your sharing and I was very lucky to sort of get plugged into a community pretty quickly as I discovered. You know, I want a podcast. I want to learn from the greats and just want to say thank you and it's so nice to be able to have you on SO Money now.

[Pat Flynn]

I'm grateful for you for saying that and congrats to you. I mean, you're nearly at 2,000 episodes. I mean, you, you've taken this thing and you've run with it and you've done so well and the people that you've connected with, the amazing inspiration and valuable information that you share is just unmatched. So thank you again and I'm honored to be here.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Thank you. Well, maybe I somehow knew all about this inspiration matrix which you write about in your book. A tool to figure out where to direct your energy. It's all part of your new books wisdom called Lean Learning how to achieve more by learning Less. We live in a world where knowledge is, is power. We've learned, right, that there's no such thing as having too much information. The more you know, the more you grow. But tell me a little bit about your thesis here about this importance of being more focused and finite in what you learn and what you apply as you pursue your career and make impact.

[Pat Flynn]

Sure, I mean, yes, the more you know, the more you grow. But if there is a situation now where we can learn too much about too many things and that's what we're trying to control here. Because information no longer is as scarce as it once used to be. Information on the Internet, when it was coming about, when we were starting out, when we could publish something, it was fairly new for people to come across something like that. My podcasting tutorials, your money, information, it was all new. And unfortunately we live today where there is so much information about all kinds of things that we're still consuming it in the same kind of way. It's almost as if we're treating information like it was a scarce food source. Like if you imagine like cave people days, right? It's like if you come across a, a carcass or like some fruit bush or something, you hoard it because you might not come across another resource in a while. And today we aren't just at a buffet line of information. We're getting force fed information from algorithms and platforms that show us things that we didn't even know we needed. So we need to learn how to control that. And it's not just information anymore. In fact, I would argue that information alone isn't going to do you much because everybody has access to all the information we could ever need. And now with AI, it's just making it even more accessible. It is the application of the right information at the right time for the right reasons. It's when you match those three things that, that you find magic, right? Because I don't know about you, but I used to be in the camp of like, I would be in my car and if I wasn't listening to a podcast or if I wasn't listening to an audiobook, I felt like I was wasting time. But I found that I could actually become over inspired by, by listening to too many things or watching too many YouTube videos, I'm going to be pulled in all these different directions and the things that I've once committed to no longer have the energy required from me or the attention span to actually see it through and follow through and achieve some sort of result, at least. And so that's kind of what this book answers and helps people through. It's entrepreneurs, of course, which is my forte. I wrote this for my kids who are becoming young adults very soon. I wrote this for anybody trying to speedrun skill acquisition of any kind, from a language to an instrument to a business, whatever it might be, there is a right way to do it in today's world.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So it sounds like it's not just the knowledge, but you need good timing. You need to have a.

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A core.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Why? Like a central reason as to why you want to learn this stuff. It's not just because maybe everyone's going to law school. So I'm going to go to law school. You know, I find that so many folks I've encountered in life and maybe I can throw myself into this equation too. Whenever we feel stuck, whenever we feel there's something sort of emotional underpinning, you know, where we don't take action and instead we choose to continue to learn. What do you think is going on there? Because I think this is quite universal where. Oh, yeah, scared, right. Especially right now. There's like pending recession. Oh, well, I don't want to apply myself to this economy. That could be a disaster. So I'm going to go hide in grad school that I saw happen so often during the Great Recession in 2008, 2009, which came at a price for many people.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, I mean, that hits home for me when you say that, because when I had gotten laid off for my architecture job, which is kind of how I became an entrepreneur, my dad was like, hey, go back to school. This is your time to go get a master's degree in architecture. And I said I had done everything the way I was supposed to before, and the rug got pulled out from under me. What if this happens again? I need to take control. I want to do stuff that if I were to fail, it's because of my own fault, not because of anything that's sort of external. We have this drive to. I mean, again, it's just how we've been conditioned. I mean, when I had gotten laid off and I discovered this world of online business, my first inclination wasn't to build a website. It was literally to go to business school. Like, I was literally looking at business schools because I wanted to go into business, not architecture. And so my first inclination was again, the most expensive situation that was going to cost me the most time versus what actually happened because I had a force function within it. I was moving back home with my parents. I was getting married. I had a reason to take action. Now, that's another important component of this. You need a little bit of heightened pressure. And for me, it was a lot of pressure at the time to finally make decisions and take action. And for me, I wanted to write an E book to help architects who were finding my website and learning from my blog posts. And so I never knew how to write an ebook or sell anything online. I'd never gone down that route before. And again, my inclination was to go to business school to learn how to, to do this. But I had a, I, I, I had something at stake. So all I knew is as soon as I started learning about this process and reading about marketing and digital marketing and sales online, I started to overwhelm myself. And if it wasn't for that force function, I would have stopped. I would have just gone back to architecture. But what ended up happening was I said, okay, I'm gonna take this task and I'm gonna chop it up into different phases. The first phase, I know nothing else can happen unless I write this guide, write this ebook to help, to help architects. So I'm just going to open up Microsoft Word. There's a question in the book that I talk about in terms of guidance, and that is, if this were easy, what would it look like? I got that question from Tim Ferriss, and I've always sort of lived that. And so if it were easy, what would it look like? Well, I would just open up Word and get this thing down. And I did. And it took three weeks. And now I had the manuscript, but it didn't look great. But that's okay, because I was now at the point at which I now could take what I had and format it. And I learned how to do that by watching some YouTube videos and asking a couple people. I turned it into a landscape guide with two columns. And I didn't know how to do that before, but I found the information when I needed it. And then I had this thing, and I was more motivated than ever. I had the guide. Now I was driven to figure out how to sell it. And it was like, oh, I'm so close now. I could feel it. So I asked a couple people. Again, a point in the book is there are many other people who've gone down the same path before you who are openly sharing the things that are happening. It's finding the right resources from the right people at the right time. And so I found a resource called E Junkie. I don't know if you remember this tool from back in the day, but it was a tool where you could upload like a PDF file or anything digital and it would give you a button that you could put on your website. And that's what I did. It would automatically deliver the book via email if people purchase. So I was like, okay, cool, I got this button. Now I found the right tool. But now I need a sales page. I have never written a sales page. And again, first inclination, do I need to go to like copywriting school or something like that to be able to do this right? Again, the most expensive, most laborious way to go there. But again, I had that thing at stake. So I again asked around and I was pointed to a resource that was a book and it was called Moonlighting on the Internet by Yannick Silver. And this book encapsulated 20 to 30 different ways to make money online, just from like ebay to selling whatever services. I didn't need any of that. I just needed the appendix in the back of the book, which was a Mad Lib style sales page where I can plug in my product and put in the features and benefits and publish that. And that's exactly what I did. And that, that sales page on that website, which still exists today, has generated over seven figures as a result of just taking it piece by piece, finding the resources when the time was right. And this is the difference, Farnoosh, between just in case learning, which is what we're all doing, and just in time learning, which is finding the right resources at the right time. But we still are driven to hoard everything because we feel like we're going to miss out. That that's the, that's what we're really battling against.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Well, there's a scarcity mentality as well. And you brought up the financial wins that seem to have been very meth. Like it was a. There was a method in place and it wasn't the first thing that you went after. You sort of like built the thing and then you figured out how to monetize. Speak to the person who is worried about money, right? They want to lean, learn, they want to become experts, forensic experts in something. They don't want to be scattered. They don't like the being on the hamster wheel. But they also have financial responsibilities. And I don't have to tell any, like the uncertainty right now. Again, it's an echoing issue. But how would you advise that person?

[Pat Flynn]

Yes, I mean, I have a strategy called the one, one one strategy. And this works for many of my students who are just starting out in business. They want to get in and like you said, they're kind of scared. They know that it's going to take a long time to build an audience. They know it might take a little bit of time to create a course. And who am I creating this course for anyway? That's often the first question I get is, pat, should I create a course or should I write a book or should I do coaching? You're asking the wrong questions. The first question you should ask is, which group of people do you want to step forward into and serve? Because that's what all good businesses do. They step forward and serve in some way, shape or form. And all you need to do is find one person in a community market of interest that you might have. You might already be in a community or have interests in a space, and maybe in an online forum or a group on Facebook or just a community within your hometown, whatever it might be. Find one person in that space, find one problem that they have and get them one result. Just one person, right? Not a thousand, not ten thousand, or a million subscribers like we all think we need. Just. Just find one. And if you can't find one, you can't find more. So let's start in the beginning again. If this were easy, what would it look like? That in and of itself, just finding that person is going to be an exercise, which is really important. It's going to help you learn where these people exist and where they show up. It's going to help you understand the language that they speak and kind of what questions they're asking. When you try to determine their problem, reaching out to that person and seeing what they might need help with is going to be an exercise in and of itself, which is good training for business, which is to interact with people. Not just hide behind your keyboard, but actually go out there and see what people need help with. And finally, when you get that person, that result in whatever way, you don't even need a website to do this. You just kind of do this in a way that can help them. Whatever it might be from, you know, learning how to present, to singing on stage, to playing an instrument, whatever it might be, this, the skill that you have that you can help another person with and make something more convenient for them or unlock something for them, there is value in that. Not only are you going to get that Result and sort of that testimonial which you can then utilize later. You're going to unlock the confidence that this is actually something that can happen. And that is the biggest hurdle that most beginner entrepreneurs have is I don't know if what I'm doing is going to work. Which is why this one, one, one strategy helps you literally like shoe that thought away by actually getting a real life case study and you actually getting out there and in the process empathizing with who it is you're serving and getting to know them. Like not just like making up an avatar and saying oh my, you know, ideal customer is, is, is 32 and a half years old with two and a half kids and they, you know, no, like find a real person. It's going to fast forward all of this and that's going to then help you be able to scale it up and amplify or what sometimes happens for nuts is people go through that process, they get a result and they're like, okay, I learned that I don't really want to help these people. Like I, I, I, I love people and I want to help people, but just this isn't my people.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

What an amazing thing to learn now rather than five years down the road when you've dedicated time, energy and, and, and money into this and you're like, I'm, I've, I've climbed the ladder, but it's the wrong ladder.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah.

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Farnoosh Tarabi]

You're absolutely right Pat, about the question. You're asking the wrong question. If you're first going to the medium you know, it's really about the audience, the person you want to serve. But there's so much to this that requires consistency. You know, we just started talking earlier about how we met 10 years ago, and I started podcasting in 2015. I had a good feeling that this was going to be something that I could stick with. I was right. But I also find that when people ask the question of where to begin, part of it should be at least like, where can you find yourself showing up day in and day out? Not to say you're not allowed to change your mind and quit, but that's important too. How do you identify? Well, I guess maybe this is getting into the. Another aspect of your book, which is the inspiration matrix, because when you're inspired, you will show up day in and day out. You will skip lunch. You will not, you know, in a good way, like, you will be so into it. Tell me about that model and how it can also help people identify their lean learning paths.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah. The inspiration matrix, which is more toward the beginning of the book, is a great filter to use to understand of all the things that you have interested in that you're putting energy and effort into and thought into. Where do they fit in terms of the area of your life that matter? And there's a few parts of this. So the upper left hand corner, which is the sort of less priority, less sort of mandatory, if you will, but high energy, high excitement is going to be what I like to call your recreational inspirations. This is something like a hobby. And like, it's interesting. When I run this profile through a number of entrepreneurs, what I often find is that this one is empty. And when it's empty, it's dangerous because that means there is nothing that you can sort of go back to, to recharge with. It's something that you enjoy that doesn't require sort of heightened stress or energy like a, like a, like a commitment, a required commitment or mandatory commitment would require. Right. Something, a critical commitment that you kind of have to do the less exciting thing, but, like, you have to do it, so you're going to put time and energy into it. The, the recreational inspirations are important. So having a hobby that you can kind of go back into and understanding and what a person can do. Now, even listening to this as I talk about this matrix, or as you go through the book perhaps, is you can take an audit of your life right now and consider where do certain things lie on this matrix? And you might find that you don't have really anything exciting that Isn't high pressure to take yourself away from the high pressure things. And that balance is key. And that's been really helpful for me too. Right now it's golf and fishing are my things that help me escape, but then also come back into the requirements with much more energy and effort and excitement. Then you have your passion pursuits. These are the things that you just cannot stop thinking about, that you want to pursue that are not things that you've mastered yet. And this is where you're going to put a lot of time and energy and effort. And again, just having one or two of these things is important. And oftentimes you'll find that a lot of entrepreneurs, especially those of us who are more renaissance type, you know, multifaceted, multi interest kind of people, we have multiple things here and it looks so clear when you look at this graph often that there's no way any of these are going to do well when you are putting yourself in three different passions and you're dividing that across so many things. Probably the easiest thing where you can see results faster, however, is when you start to mark what are your junk sparks? These are things that give you some excitement in the beginning, but don't necessarily will give you long term excitement or are just fleeting distractions. And this is something that's common in today's world because we're so connected to everybody on social media and with all the content that we're creating. This is why controlling what comes in, only allowing yourself to as much as possible learn about what matters to you right now. And your next step is important because if you don't do that, you're going to have a lot of junk sparks, like junk food that's going to weigh you down and again, take your time away from things. Like some junk sparks that I've personally had recently were related to basketball, right? I love basketball. It wasn't going to be a passion pursuit of mine and it was something that I do enjoy, but I knew that I could take that energy and put it somewhere else to get more results. And again, I'll still dabble in it just for fun if their friends are hanging out. But I was getting a little too much into it where I was starting to download a ton of basketball content. I was buying like special basketballs that you could dribble in your house because they wouldn't make noise. And in my mind I was. I eventually took an audit and found, wait, what do I want to do here? Is this something that I really want to dedicate more time and energy into. Even though I liked it, I enjoyed it. It was a junk spark. It wasn't something that long term I was going to turn into a business or something that, you know, I was, I wasn't going to join the NBA or anything. I'm not saying that's not a reason to enjoy it, but my, my recreational inspirations were already filled full. And if I divide myself too much, not only in my business and passion pursuits am I not going to have time and energy, but even in my, my recreational stuff, like I really enjoy fishing and really enjoy golf. And this is now by saying no to basketball, for example, I now have time for things that I really do enjoy. Like, yeah, like I said, fishing.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I, I can appreciate this as someone who is a bit of a. Wants to do it all, but I find that, like, what you're doing is you're giving us like a, like you're giving us a way to organize all of this and so identify. Okay, this is a passion. This is maybe a junk start. This is a, this is actually the thing that's going to lead you to impact and money.

[Pat Flynn]

Right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

So you can still have a multifaceted life.

[Pat Flynn]

There are so many people who talk about the one thing. Like Alex Hermosi, who I love. His stuff is great, but he' very do the one thing and just do it forever. And I'm just like, I've been very kind.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah, I can't do it.

[Pat Flynn]

I can't do it.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I bought it. I was like, it was the New.

[So Money Host Announcer]

York Times bestselling book for so long.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I'm like, I gotta, I gotta, I'm doing life wrong. I gotta read this book.

[Pat Flynn]

Right, Right. I've come up with a strategy furnished to battle that because I, like, it's still important to have control. Like, if you're just unwieldy with all the interests that you have, you're gonna go nowhere. So I've created something called the 20% itch rule. And this is something that has turned into multimillion dollar businesses, actually, with the extra time that I allow myself to do these things again in a controlled manner, almost like a petri dish, if you will, where I'm experimenting. And if that were to fail, that's okay because I still am committed to the other thing. So 80% of my time I am working on things that I've already said yes to, that I'm committed to, my responsibilities, et cetera. 20% of my time I allow for play, for experimentation, to scratch that itch. One thing at a time for a certain period of time until it's over. And that's really key. This was between 2017 and 2019. This was my invention called the Switchpod with my videographer, Caleb. We never invented anything before, and we used the lean learning approach that I've talked about to get our way to an invention that in 2019 launched to $415,000 on Kickstarter in 60 days. And again, that was every Friday. We worked on this for a year or so until it finally launched. More recently, it's been a YouTube channel about Pokemon, actually, which has taken off and that this has been my 20% of my time. Other times I've built software companies and other things in that 20% of time and it completely failed. But it never was a waste, and it didn't feel like a waste because I was still doing the things I was supposed to. But I also learned so much from those lessons that I can then apply to the next thing. So play, but have control. And don't say yes to too many, too many things, or else you're going to say no to things that you've already once committed to.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

It sounds a lot like the Google 20% rule that led to Gmail, I think. Let's talk a little bit about AI. What's your philosophy on how it can be used as a tool, perhaps, but also as a. As a place to spend 80% of your time? Potentially, yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

I mean, AI is here. It's going to continue to grow and become a part of our lives whether we want it to or not. And whether we think it is or not, it's here. I enjoy using AI as a collaborative brainstorming partner. That's how I primarily use it for things. If I'm coming up with a blog post or a video, I use AI. I use Claude specifically to almost be a representation of my audience so that I can see how it may react to certain things first and I can get in front of that. I help. It helps me come up with title ideas and all these other things for creation. Where it comes into play in terms of lean learning is again, AI is going to make information and access to information less valuable. It's no longer just because you're the smartest person in the class and you know things. I think we all know how quick and smart AI is and how it's learning and evolving. If we continue to believe that just absorbing information is going to get us ahead, there's going to be a very tough moment in life where we discover that that's not going to Be true and you might lead yourself down the wrong path. I mean, imagine all the people who had spent time going to school to learn how to code, right? That's almost obsolete anymore in terms of what a human can do, because AI can do that in an instant. And then companies aren't going to hire a human who can have human mistakes. They're going to hire an AI or just invest in AI to be able to do these things faster and without mistakes. So it's like, this is where we have to really be careful about where we're putting our time into, what we're learning. And for me, there are two things that are going to be valuable in the future as a result of this. Number one, the power of storytelling. This is something that I think AI will never fully get right, is the empathy and emotion and relatability that can come with telling a good story. Because we are living our own lives, and our lives and our interactions every day are uniquely human. And sharing those things and understanding how to use the right words and entice people and hook people and, you know, the storytelling aspects that come along with that, that's going to be really powerful. It's just like going back to old times where. How. How was information passed along? It was passed along through story, not just by, like, here are five fun ways to use fire in your next. You know, for the next deer that you catch, Whatever, Right? You know, and that plus how quickly can you pick up new things and implement them. Right? Utility is no longer information. Utility is implementation and learning and discovery through those experiences. So that's where AI comes in. I am. I am not like a hardcore fan of it, but I'm also not against it either. I do imagine there is a world, however, if I were to snap my fingers, and not in a Thanos kind of way, but more like if things were to work out the way. I would hope there is a world where we can combine how learning once used to be through apprenticeship models, through interactions, through internships, with the technology that we have available today and access to that information. I feel like there is a world where we can marry those two things and have the best of both worlds.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

It's so interesting when you think about the pendulum swinging where when the Internet was introduced, so much of work became behind a desk, behind a computer. And now I feel like we need to get up and get mobilized again because we need to be out there telling the stories. Engag relating. As you think about your kids, I don't know exactly how old they are, but what Fatherly advice do you have for them as they are evaluating their moves in their careers? I mean, in addition to lean learning, but also as it applies to AI. I mean, in some ways I have young kids, I'm like, maybe they should learn how to use their hands, you know, to do things that AI can't. And, and I know, like, like it's all nice to go get the shiny law degree, but honestly, we need plumbers. We need.

[Pat Flynn]

Oh yeah. Oh, amen.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Fix H Vacs. And that's not everybody wants to do that. But I think there's sort of a. Interesting again, like pendulum shifting for sure.

[Pat Flynn]

I think so. I have kid, I have two kids, 15 and 12. So my son is in high school now. He's going to be a sophomore next year, which is just bonkers. Just getting behind the wheel to drive and.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Wow, okay, that's crazy. Although car drives itself now.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, right. Like in 10 years that might not even be a needed skill anymore. And I imagine a future where that isn't, you know, you don't need a driver's license anymore. You just need like a passenger license or something. That's going to be wild. But for the meantime, not again forcing them to learn. And you know, I want them to get good grades so that they can have options in the world that we live in today. But we're not like my parents forcing 4.0. Or, or, or you're wrong, right? It's. Are you beginning to understand how the world works and are you getting better at learning things, whether it's something you're interested in or not? Quickly can you understand what's happening here? And so for the future, my and my wife's focus is on two things. Executive skills and functioning. So just staying organized, time management, you know, just, just, just those kinds of skills for, for executive functioning. But also the people skills, the interpersonal skills, the communication. How well do they understand how to solve a problem together with others? Collaboration. How well do they communicate on a stage and present different ideas? Because whether they choose to become entrepreneurs or not, even if they're an employee of a company, they can be a version of that that uses entrepreneurial skills to, to, to better them themselves, their lives and, and the company that they work for. Communication. Huge. Again, these things that aren't AI, right? Empathy, understanding of others, problem solving together. I mean, the first story in the book is about some preschool kids who work together to create something that was, you know, a solution to a problem that they had in a moment's notice, which was huge. I mean, imagine four or five year olds understanding these skills, let alone using them later in life as well. And that's, that's kind of where our focus is for them and you know, we want to guide them and as much as possible not tell them what they should do, but ask the right questions so that they can figure it out on their own.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Well, you've certainly given us so much to rethink about Pat Flynn, I really appreciate your advice, your time with us today. The book is called Lean Learning how to Achieve More by Learning Less. Congratulations.

[Pat Flynn]

Thank you so much, Ranish. This was an honor. I cannot wait to see your episode 2000 go up. There's not a lot of podcasters that get to that much and so congratulations.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Who will it be? Who will it be? I haven't planned that far in advance.

[Pat Flynn]

Again, I appreciate you and everybody listening to this and thank you so much for your time and attention. And hopefully with Lean Learning, you can learn to put your time and attention on the things that really do matter to you and the things that will help you get those results that you want faster.

[So Money Host Announcer]

Thanks so much to Pat Flynn for joining us.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Great episode.

[So Money Host Announcer]

Whether you're a solopreneur, a career switcher, or just feeling stuck in the scroll. His book again is called Lean how to Achieve More by Learning Less.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

And I hope your day is so.

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[Pat Flynn]

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[Pat Flynn]

Eduardo.