← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1879: Stepfamily Finances: Navigating Love, Money, and the Insider-Outsider Dynamic
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- [00:00]
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- [01:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
So Money Episode 1879 Step Family Finances.
- [01:31]
Navigating Love, Money and the Insider Outsider dynamic.
- [01:37]
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to Sew Money.
- [02:03]
Cameron Norman
It's about so much more than dollars and cents in a step family, right? It's every dollar for step parents can feel really loaded because it's like where is it going? Is it going for your spouse's kids? Is it going for your kids? Is it going for our kids? What does that look like? And then if you're a step parent and you're contributing, how much do you feel like you have a say around where the money's going or the things that are happening in the household? And talking about the insider Outsider syndrome. Step moms and step parents are often expected to contribute financially to the household, but then they feel like guests in their own home.
- [02:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
Welcome to Sew Money, everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Wanted to spend some time today discussing a underreported but very important aspect of.
- [02:51]
Our personal financial lives, and that is step family financial solutions. Because blended families don't just merge households, they merge bank accounts, their bills, and very different money expectations. Step families are becoming more and more common, but the financial playbook for them is far from simple. Every dollar spent can feel loaded. How is it going to impact your kids, your spouse's kids, or the kids you're now raising together? My guest today is an expert truly on this topic. She knows firsthand and from her work.
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And research just how much money and.
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Emotional lab intersects in blended families. Cameron Norman is one of the country's leading step family experts and the founder of Step Family Solutions. She's built a career helping step parents navigate the financial and emotional landmines that come with the role. In our conversation, Cameron breaks down why finances and step families are so much more than dollars and cents. She explains the insider outsider syndrome that many step parents face and what it really takes to create a household where everybody feels seen, support, and financially secure.
- [04:04]
Cameron Norman, welcome back to Sew Money. It's great to reconnect and such an important topic we're going to unpack today. But first, let's catch up the audience in case we're listening to this topic and learning about you. For the first time. You had a thriving career in politics and entertainment, and then you became a stepmom and you walked away from your previous professional life to create your new professional life, Step Family Solutions. Take us back to maybe a moment that ultimately springboarded the launch into Step Family Solutions.
- [04:42]
Cameron Norman
Yeah, it really was interesting. I did. I worked in politics for 23 years. I was on Capitol Hill. I was a lobbyist for two of the largest movie studios in the world. And it was a really fun career. And I met my husband, we got married. I became a stepmom to 4:1 with special needs. I had grown up as a stepchild and in a high conflict situation and thought, gosh, if I could handle that as a step kid, I know what to do and what not to do. So this will be. I don't know that I thought it would be cake. I thought I knew what I was doing.
- [05:14]
Farnoosh Torabi
Me, I know, right?
- [05:16]
Cameron Norman
Like, I'm likable. I've done pretty well socially. It's okay. I'LL be fine. It's like, me and I got into it and realized, needless to say, and every step parent that's listening is laughing as I'm saying that, because they know that's not how it goes. And so I got into it, and it was so much harder than I thought. And we had so many more issues than I thought we were going to have. And I started feeling like I was failing at this, and it didn't feel good. I'm clearly, I'm type A. I've. I'm fairly smart and felt like, why can't I find resources? Why can't I figure this out? And so I decided to get certified as a step family coach. Not to go coach, but because I wanted to understand. I wanted to understand why nothing I was doing seemed to be making a difference or make anything better. And I was still waking up every morning just like, waiting for the other shoe to drop, which is just not a great way to live. So I signed up to do that. And that was really the turning point for me because around the time that politics started descending into the madness of toxicity that we see today, I was getting certified and learning all of this about my stepfamily. And when I started coaching other stepmoms on the side, it was like a light bulb went off. And I was like, if I had such a hard time finding these resources and really digging into the stepfamily dynamic, then I cannot be the only one out there. And I realized how needed these resources were. And so then the pandemic hit. We were all working from home. I was doing some coaching and started, you know, the light bulb kept getting stronger and stronger. And so finally in 2023, I was like, you know what? I've built the Runway for me to get off of this crazy train in politics and start doing something that really fed my soul and that I knew would help so many people out there that were struggling the way that I was.
- [07:05]
Farnoosh Torabi
And at that point, too, you've had road tested results. Yours and others. Before we get into some of your advice, I want to understand what is at the root of the real complexities between step parent and stepchild. We can all imagine the kinds of tensions that ensue. We've seen the movies. We've lived it. Perhaps.
- [07:28]
Cameron Norman
Thank you, Disney.
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Farnoosh Torabi
Thanks, Disney. But in your studies and in your coaching and in your own personal experiences, what is the root of it or the roots?
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Cameron Norman
Yeah, I always like to talk to my stepmoms about how as bad as they feel and they feel like they're failing and all this, that it's not their fault. Because the truth of the matter is the step family structure is so different from first family structure that you are set up to fail without even realizing it. So as a stepmom, you're coming into it. The adults, the stepmom and her spouse, they are excited, they have found their person and they can't wait to get started with life together. The kids are experiencing loss, right? Because whether through death or divorce, their first family is no more. They may be dealing with two homes, they may be grieving a parent, whatever that looks like there's been a loss. And so there's automatically a disconnect between what the kids are feeling and what the adults are feeling. And the adults are like, can't you be happy that mom or dad is so happy right now? No, because kids are very self centric, right? That's part of being a kid is you can't really think about somebody, your parents being happy because you're like, what has this done to my world? The other part of it that's really challenging and I should add into that that if you have a situation where the relationship with the other house, with mom is really difficult, toxic, high conflict, that puts the kid in what we call a loyalty bind, where they feel guilty for having a relationship with the stepmom because mom either is telling them stepmom's awful or is sending some signaling that she doesn't want the step kid to have that relationship and so complicates everything. The other dynamic that's really important I think, to understand is the researchers call it outsider insider syndrome. So stepmoms come into this dynamic again, whether there's been a loss or whatever the situation is. There is a family unit that's been a family for years, like their spouse and the kids. There's a biological, most of the time bond between them. And stepmom comes into that. She is automatically the outsider and her spouse is automatically the insider. And that positioning sets up for not just like misunderstandings and conflict, but it sets up for stepmom to always feel a little less than. Feel like she's got to prove her place in the family, feel like she doesn't quite fit in. Then the kids are talking about holiday traditions that they used to all do together. Nobody's intending to make stepmom feel left out, but she feels a little left out because she wasn't there. It's this, it's baked in to the step family structure and it's hard to overcome There are things you can do, but it's hard to. It's hard to get a handle on it if you aren't aware that this is so different. And unfortunately, a lot of the advice that's given from social media, but also from really well intended, well meaning therapists who don't, who haven't gotten the education around the different structures, they're treating it as if it's a first family thing and they're trying to work those strategies in with the family and it doesn't work. So it complicates things. So I get a lot of clients who come to me saying, I've been in therapy, but it hasn't been helping. And we dive a little deeper and I'm like, have you talked to your therapist about step family dynamics? Here's a book you need to give them because it is challenging and there's some really great research around this. It's not fully out there.
- [11:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. Which is surprising, but it is considering.
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Cameron Norman
Like 40% of American families are in some kind of step.
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Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, you focus on step moms, but how does their experience compare contrast to stepdads?
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Cameron Norman
It's different and it's interesting. As few resources as there are for stepmoms, there are even fewer for stepdads. And I've had a few contact me and want to work with me, and I'm like, I'm happy to work with you, but just know that like, my background is in stepmoms. It's that being said, stepmoms, they've just got it harder from a societal perspective. And I think from looking at research, there are more instances of depression among stepmoms than there are from stepdads. And even from biological moms, they definitely have it worse. And I think society hasn't helped. Right. Even when you look at films and books, stepdad is viewed as having come in and oh, what a great guy. He's come in and he's taking care of these kids that aren't his and like, he's stepping up and that's so great. And with stepmom, it's. Who does she think she is, coming in here and trying to take mom's place? Or I wonder if they were fooling around before mom and spouse got divorced. And I mean, there's just this baked in skepticism. Yeah. Stepmoms, of course.
- [12:24]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. It's sad that we know this. Just, we just take it. We're like, yeah, we know it's. Yeah, we never. We are less to give women the benefit of the doubt than we are Men. What we wanted to focus with you on today, this. Your advice spans so much relational advice and emotional advice. But the financial piece is really what I wanted to spend time on with you today because there is financial tension that shows up just as it does in first families, in step families, too. But how does it look different in the step family scenario? The money stuff?
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Cameron Norman
Yeah. It's about so much more than dollars and cents in a step family. Right. It's every dollar for step parents can feel really loaded because it's like, where is it going? Is it going for your spouse's kids? Is it going for your kids? Is it going for our kids? What does that look like? And then if you're a step parent and you're contributing, how much do you feel like you have a say around where the money's going or the things that are happening in the household? And talking about the insider, outsider, synd stepmoms and step parents are often expected to contribute financially to the household, but then they feel like guests in their own home. And it's a really hard, you know, if they don't have equal decision making power, but they're expected to show up financially. It's really challenging.
- [13:53]
Farnoosh Torabi
Sorry, go ahead.
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Cameron Norman
Oh, I was just gonna say I do. I do tell stepmoms that ultimately, and this sounds really harsh, they don't have an obligation to pay for their step kids. They may have developed a relationship or, you know, with the kids or with their spouse where they really want to, and I think that's wonderful, but they don't have to. And they're already doing so much unpaid emotional labor and unrecognized emotional stuff, very technical term that that can compound it. So I really encourage, like conversations around this stuff because it's really easy for resentment to start.
- [14:32]
Farnoosh Torabi
So operationally. How do you put boundaries around that? Because what if you're the couple that you've blended families potentially, and you share accounts and so do you earmark things? More specifically, how do you shield your money from the areas that you don't want it to go into? How do you have those talks and then how do you actually do that?
- [14:57]
Cameron Norman
Yeah, it's a great question. And it's not easy. And it's something that I feel like a lot of couples don't talk about before they, like, partner up and get married. And I know we certainly didn't. And like, when I got married, it was like, of course we'll mix our bank accounts and put everything in together because we're married. And that's what we do, and all the money will come out of one pot, and it'll be great. And then we got into a situation where there was a renegotiation over child support, and we had discovery filed on us. And guess what? All of my stuff had to get produced because we had blended everything. And so my lesson learned from that and from having since spoken with a lot of financial professionals and lawyers and stuff like that is keep it separate until you don't have those kid obligations. And it may feel weird to do and it may not feel natural. It doesn't mean you can't, like, access, you know, what each other has. You can give each other your passwords, and obviously you don't want to. You don't want either person to feel like you don't trust them. But, like, keep it separate, and it just keeps it so much easier if you're going to blend it together. I would just have the conversation about expectations about, okay, Susie's got soccer coming up. These are the costs that, you know, we're going to have to have. And is it coming out of the common pot? Is it who's paying for what? And really give the step parent the. They already feel like they're a little less than in the household. Give them some autonomy to make some decisions and set some boundaries without judgment.
- [16:28]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
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Cameron Norman
Which can be really hard. But if you're a new stepmom and you're coming in and maybe you don't have that bond with the kids yet and you like them and everything, but maybe you want to keep it separate. Maybe you want to just let your spouse continue to cover that stuff. That's okay. And I want step parents to also normalize feeling okay around making those decisions because you feel like you have to do all those things. You don't. You get to figure out what you're comfortable with.
- [16:52]
Farnoosh Torabi
Wow. What about college? Paying for college, it's such a big expense. And even if you have separated your finances with one partner shouldering the majority of that, let's say for the child, their child, the ex, is maybe not contributing, that's a huge financial toll on your new blended family. And so this is getting into another gray area. Right. That's another conversation separate from, maybe I don't want to pay for camp through my salary, but college, we're talking six figures. Is it appropriate for the step parent to say, hey, you know what? I know this isn't touching my money, but let's be realistic, like, our money still matters and we have a lot of goals, and I'm worried that you're going to be taking from your retirement potentially to pay for college. And that does trickle down to impact me, the other spouse. So what's appropriate to say in those moments, like, for example, hey, maybe your, our, your daughter, my stepdaughter, should consider a less expensive school or should take on some student loans instead of you financing all of it?
- [18:02]
Cameron Norman
Yes, absolutely. And I think that the stepparent absolutely has a right to have those conversations because you're right, it does trickle down. And like, it's very easy to be like, I don't want to pay for it, so like, you just handle it. But at the end of the day, that's going to impact both of you. It's going to impact your retirement, it's going to impact your lifestyle and college is hugely expensive. And I won't go on this complete tangent right now, but I will tell you that the most recent redo of the FAFSA forms, the step parent's income gets counted, which I think is so unfair to kids because the step parent may not want to contribute. I won't go down that rabbit hole. But I, that is, that's a policy thing that like, I wish is that new. It's from the last redo. They just redid the FAFSA forms and.
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Farnoosh Torabi
They just want to give kids less money. That's what's going on pretty much. They don't care. They're just on paper. They want it to seem like you have all this money.
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Cameron Norman
Yeah, I mean it's, and I should caveat, it's not that the stepparent automatically goes on, but if the kid spends 50% or more time at that parent's house and there's a stepparent, then their income gets counted. And I think that is just really not fair to kids and not fair when it's a complicated dynamic which so many people have. Anyway, I could go on for a whole other episode about that, but the conversations about college are, they're really important. And it's also something that when people are getting a divorce, they never, almost never build that in to the divorce decree or to parenting plans. And so a lot of times it hasn't even been figured out who's paying for college and how that's going to get tackled, which again leaves the kids in a pretty tenuous position, especially if it's high conflict. So if they get all that figured out or if your spouse says that they're going to take that expense on a long winded way of saying you need to have those conversations about how it's going to impact your house and it's completely fair for you to have concerns about that. And I think that it really is approaching it the way that you would approach any other hard conversation with your spouse. I love you. I love Johnny. This is going to have long term impact. So let's just discuss the practicalities and like, what are the different options we have? So option one is you pay for everything and let the chips fall where they may and we'll deal with it. Option two is maybe Johnny goes to a less expensive school. Option three is maybe Johnny takes out, we figure out like what is reasonable to contribute so that we're helping and he takes out student loans. Option four is we're not doing anything, you know, and try and take the emotion out of it because it's also very easy for our partners to get defensive. Oh, you don't want to pay for Johnny? No, that's not what I'm saying. Like, obviously I want Johnny to go to school. I'm just trying to figure out how it's going to impact us, which by the way, is reasonable. None of it's easy.
- [20:47]
Farnoosh Torabi
It's not easy, but we're giving people hopefully the permission to go there when so often we feel like this is not my territory, it's inappropriate. But are you married or are you not? You always go back to that question, Are you in it to win it together or are you not?
- [21:03]
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- [24:16]
Cameron Norman
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Farnoosh Torabi
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Cameron Norman
Everything.
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Cameron Norman
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Cameron Norman
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- [24:43]
Cameron Norman
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- [24:48]
Farnoosh Torabi
You wanted to talk also about some of the misperceptions, what folks get wrong about money and emotional labor in blended homes. I'm not sure what that means, although I can imagine. Maybe I can guess. How does it differ potentially with how we see it play out in first. You call it First Families?
- [25:10]
Cameron Norman
First Families, yeah.
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Farnoosh Torabi
First families, yeah.
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Cameron Norman
I think money conversations, as you've been doing this for long enough that you've definitely seen everything. Money is hard to talk about. Money's hard to deal with, you know, in relationships, and it's charged and loaded and is associated with a lot of underlying emotions that come up through it in step families. And I alluded to this. Stepmoms are already doing a lot of emotional labor, a lot of mental labor. And it was interesting. We had our stepmom summit last weekend. I had a long conversation as part of the summit with Eve Rodsky, who's done a ton of work around mental load that women and moms carry. And it is.
- [25:51]
Farnoosh Torabi
She's the author of Fair Play, by the way, for anybody who wants to.
- [25:55]
Cameron Norman
Which is a wonderful system if you're a stepfamily. Not to plug her stuff, but I will, because it's good. But there is an enormous amount of mental load and emotional load stuff that stepmoms carry that are different from first family moms. We've talked a little bit about their different roles, that the concept of them coming in as the outsider and feeling like they are expected to show up for kids emotionally, they're expected to show up for kids financially. But they don't get any of the recognition of being a parent. And no one's suggesting that they should get the same type of treatment moms get. It is a different role. And no one's trying to replace mom. The kids have a mom, and that's wonderful. And we hope that they are close with mom and have a great relationship. But there should be some sort of recognition, some sort of pulling stepmom into a more equal role, a more equal mental load, and it's really hard. They're expected to come in and coordinate schedules. They're expected to come in and wrap all the Christmas gifts, pick up kids from soccer practice, whatever that looks like. And that takes time. That's energy draining. It may take time away from her career. She is paying the mental load that a parent pays, but not getting that recognition. And that can lead to a lot of resentment, a lot of stuff that builds up, none of which is great. So it's really difficult. It's really challenging.
- [27:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
I'm so glad you brought this up, because I think, to extrapolate, I think people sometimes who are not contributing financially in a relationship, like monetarily, actual paychecks coming in and landing in bank accounts, may feel as though they're not equal players in the relationship. They don't think they have as much veto power. They don't think they have as much vote. They don't think they have as much say. All the things that you just stated, that shows up a lot in marriages where there is income disparity or one person is the primary caregiver, has huge economic value, but again, isn't making that traditional paycheck. And I like that you're also saying in these step family situations, that does play out a little differently, but we should honor this person's role. Even if you said earlier you're the step parent, you're not contributing financially by choice, you could be still earning a paycheck. Right. You're going to work, but you're still doing, like you said, all this other stuff, which, going back to society, that's where the, that's the pressure. But it's also, you want, it's, let's be honest, like, you want to. You're here for a reason, right? You want to contribute. And contributing in this way is significant.
- [28:39]
Cameron Norman
It is. And I, it's interesting just anecdotally, I have a lot of women that come to me who they make more than their spouses do, which was my case too. I was a lobbyist and my husband was military. Like, I made a lot more than he did. And he. And I was very lucky. He and I had a lot of conversations about it and we kept things pretty open. And so I didn't feel like I was contributing in a way that made me feel devalued or any of that. But I work with a lot of stepmoms who do, and they feel like not just I'm doing all this stuff and not getting recognized, but I'm doing all this stuff and contributing my paycheck. And I still don't feel like I have an equal say in what's happening in our family, because these are my kids.
- [29:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
So we mentioned earlier that you've worked in politics and what you're doing now as a coach and a community builder. What are the parallels?
- [29:30]
Cameron Norman
It's really interesting. A lot of people, when I tell what my career trajectory has been, they're like, wow, that's totally different. And I'm like, it is and it's not. I'm definitely glad to be out of the toxic political world these days, but by the time I got out of it, I really felt like I was misaligned with what I was called to do. I felt like I had seen all of this stuff that stepmoms were silently carrying, and I had to do something about it. And what I have been able to do is, yes, I help stepmoms through coaching, but one of the kind of immediately transferable things that I have been able to do as a lobbyist, I was responsible for working in and helping to build coalitions, Right? Like, you're forming relationships, you're bringing in experts to teach members of Congress about various issues, and you're collaborating and you're building community. Well, guess what I'm doing now, right? I host the Stepmom Summit, where I bring in, like, literally the top experts from around the world. And I've spent years building these really deep relationships so that I can not just educate people, but bring people together and bring stepmoms to these amazing experts that have information that they desperately need. And it's why I founded the Stepfamily Coaching Academy, where I'm now training other stepfamily coaches and giving them access to these resources and trying to amplify what we're doing and help scale what we're doing for more and more stepmoms. So it's surprisingly similar, even though it seems very different.
- [31:12]
Farnoosh Torabi
Maybe if you had been doing this for a decade, you would have more data for this question that I have, which is just, have you noticed any shifts in the kinds of questions or concerns you're getting from stepmoms today versus even when you started? If you had started 10 years ago, maybe you would have seen more interesting paradigm shifts. But you mentioned one which maybe not apparently 10 years ago, which is that there are more stepmoms making more than.
- [31:42]
Cameron Norman
Yeah, and that's really anecdotal.
- [31:44]
Farnoosh Torabi
New husbands.
- [31:45]
Cameron Norman
I don't know if that's. I don't know if there's anything to that. And I. It may just be some of the women that. That come to me. But I do think that's interesting. And I also, the thing I have noticed is when I started there were so few resources. There were some websites, there were some Facebook groups. None of them felt like they went really deep into this stuff. They all felt very surface. And there are so many more resources now than there ever were. And I think that the sort of a double edged sword. Right. You go on TikTok and if you're a stepmom, you can find a lot of stepmom voices. A lot of them are really giving you advice based on their personal experience. And some of it's pretty negative. Some of it is the ex said this and I'm not going to let her run over me. And, and I always encourage people to really look at who they're listening to. Go to their profile, go to their links. Are they linking to an Amazon store where they're trying to sell you a bunch of stuff? Are they linking to a website where they've got research based advice? Nothing wrong with Amazon stores. I think it's great. I'd love to make money off an Amazon store. But just look at their experience, look at their certifications, look at their degrees. You don't have to have a PhD to get into this stuff, but you should be trained, you should have a research based approach. But I'm finding that more and more stepmoms that come to me have been doing that work. They have been looking for the right people and they have started to educate themselves. And the questions they're asking are because they've started diving into this and they have questions. So I think that's a really positive shift. I think that there's so much more that needs to be done. But I really love that there are more resources now than there used to be.
- [33:22]
Farnoosh Torabi
And as you've been hearing from so many women, what is the one thing that they want to achieve that's there but it's like they're so close. But they, they need the research, they need the coaching. Like when they come to you, what is the one thing they're really hoping to achieve that they just, they need help with?
- [33:41]
Cameron Norman
Yeah, I'm going to give you two if that's okay.
- [33:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
Sure.
- [33:43]
Cameron Norman
One is, one is more amorphous. One is when they find me, they so desperately want to be seen because they don't have people in their life that understand what they're going through. And it's really hard to understand what stepmoms go through unless you're a step parent. You know, as much as I Love my spouse, and he's so supportive of everything I do. He doesn't always understand exactly how I feel about stuff, and he can't. It's different. We talked about. He's an insider and I'm an outsider. Right. Like, we have different vantage points. And so many stepmoms just want to be seen. They just want somebody that, like, understands them. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say, a lot of stepmoms really struggle with the relationship, with their spouse's example. And even when it's a good relationship, it's complicated with the kids. And kids really do feel torn between mom and stepmom. And then if it's a high conflict thing, it can be so much worse because stepmoms can feel like if mom is feeding stuff to the kids and the kid comes over and says, mom says, you're a real jerk. How are you supposed to react to that? And that really hurts your feelings. Right. I can tell you what to say in that instance.
- [34:52]
Farnoosh Torabi
But what do you say? What do you say?
- [34:56]
Cameron Norman
You say, I'm really sorry you had to hear that. That must have hurt. Full stop.
- [35:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [35:01]
Cameron Norman
You do not continue with Let me tell you what your mom is, which may be what you're thinking in your head. You never want to exacerbate the loyalty bind. You want kids to know that you're a safe place. But it's really hard. And even when things are good, kids may feel a little weird about it. So I get a lot of stepmoms that come struggling with that, and then I get a lot of stepmoms that are struggling with the relationship with the kids and really forming that bond. And some of it is because of challenges with their mom. Some of it's just because the kids are teens, and teens are hard. And we talk through a lot of. Is this a step family dynamic issue, or is this because your kids are teenagers? I don't know. It's not always step family issues. Sometimes kids are just jerks.
- [35:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
I think that's a great line to end. That's a great line to end on. Yeah, you're fantastic. I want everyone to check out your resources. Stepfamily Solutions.com you have 10 essential stepmom scripts. I think you might have just shared one of them. So. Sorry, I didn't hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's brilliant. And then when is the next summit? I know you just had it.
- [36:09]
Cameron Norman
Yeah. So we just had one in September. Like, literally this last weekend we did, for the first time ever, was our fifth summit, which was amazing. And for the first time ever, we went 100% live. So we did 22 hours of live zooms in three days, which was amazing.
- [36:24]
Farnoosh Torabi
Oh, so it's virtual. That's great.
- [36:26]
Cameron Norman
It's virtual. Yeah. So the next one will be next September. We'll come out with the dates probably before the end of the year, but we all have lots of stuff in between. I do retreats, I do a lot of webinars, I do group coaching for people that need this. There are lots of options.
- [36:42]
Farnoosh Torabi
Cameron Norman, thank you so much. Always a pleasure.
- [36:44]
Cameron Norman
Thank you. Yeah.
- [36:49]
Farnoosh Torabi
If you'd like to learn more about.
- [36:50]
Cameron's work, check out stepfamilysolutions.com also in our show notes, check out our link for Cameron's 10 essential step stepmom Scripts, which helps stepmoms with some of the most challenging conversations in blended family life. I'll see you back here on Wednesday. And I hope your day is so money.
- [37:22]
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