1880: The Cost of Ambition: Affording Goals Without Burnout

Summary

Podcast Summary: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode 1880: The Cost of Ambition: Affording Goals Without Burnout
Date: September 18, 2025
Guest: Amina Altai, executive coach & author of The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living

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Overview

This episode explores the double-edged sword of ambition—how the very drive that fuels achievement can lead to burnout and illness if unchecked or misdirected. Host Farnoosh Torabi sits down with Amina Altai, whose personal story of crisis and reinvention leads into a nuanced discussion on the costs, traps, and healthy redirections of ambition for individuals—especially women, people of color, and those in marginalized identities. Together, they unpack systemic influences, mindset shifts, and practical tools to redefine success and fulfillment without succumbing to exhaustion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ambition as Both Hope and Hazard

[03:12] Farnoosh introduces Amina’s story: her ambition, shaped by the immigrant experience and post-9/11 America, culminated in a life-threatening health scare.

• Amina’s wake-up call: "Amina, if you don't go to the hospital now... you will be days away from multiple organ failure."
  • (Amina Altai, [05:32])
• Ambition isn’t the problem; it's the relationship we develop to that ambition that can become toxic.

2. The Personal Cost of Overwork

• Layered Recovery: Physical recovery from burnout is long and non-linear. "It was the kind of thing where you almost... work on one thing, and then another thing would pop up."
  • (Amina Altai, [07:01])
• Initial steps: A period of exploration, dubbed her Eat, Pray, Love year—trying life coaching, somatics, nutrition—to heal and accept new paths forward.

3. Roots of Painful Ambition

• Ambition becomes toxic when rooted in wounds:
  • Rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, injustice
  • Coping masks: avoidance, control, etc.
    • (Amina Altai, [12:26])
• "When you build your ambition upon that, it's kind of a house of cards."
• Shifting from "painful ambition" to "purposeful ambition" is key.

4. Systemic Traps and Gendered Expectations

[11:01]

• Women and people of color face "the ambition penalty": rewarded less, and more likely penalized for assertiveness.
• "Women of color actually are the most ambitious cohort in corporate America but experience the most backlash..." (Amina Altai, [11:01])

Internalization:

• Social bias becomes self-blame and overwork.
• "We try to outwork a broken system. It's almost virtually impossible." (Amina Altai, [15:22])

5. Redefining Ambition and Its Purpose

• Ambition is cyclical, not linear. "It's like nature. It's like a perennial flower... You nurture your inner and outer environment... then the wind shifts and the petals fall off."
  • (Amina Altai, [15:27])
• Purposeful ambition is connected to one’s ‘why’ rather than wounds.

Expanding definition:

• Ambition is not only career/financial. It also applies to parenting, relationships, and community.
  • "She desired more life in her parenting. I was like, that's ambition. That's a beautiful thing. Let's nurture and nourish that."
    • (Amina Altai, [16:39])

6. Men, Ambition, and Changing Roles

• Men also need space to redefine ambition beyond financial provision.
• "You get to decide what you're ambitious about. Someone doesn't get to decide that for you and place that on you."
  • (Amina Altai, [18:37])

7. Practical Tools for Breaking the Trap

• "Most of us get our lessons when we get our lessons..."
  • Amina notes that change often follows a "shout from the universe" (crisis), but offers a five-part framework for proactive change:
    1. Zone of Genius
    2. Alignment with Values
    3. Connection to Impact
    4. Cultivating Contentment
    5. Meeting Needs
    • (Amina Altai, [20:10])

Daily Actions:

• Invest as little as 10 extra minutes a day in your zone of genius or value-aligned work (even if it means less scrolling) ([25:17]).

Moment-to-Moment Progress:

• “Decide, take action, observe, respond.”—Small, repeatable steps out of freeze or overwhelm.
  • (Amina Altai, [32:00])

8. Challenging Hustle Culture and Social Narratives

• Hustle is not sustainable: "There are absolutely seasons that we do [need to work hard]. But we can be more in that generative cyclical nature..."
  • (Amina Altai, [25:34])
• Beware polarization (“girl boss” vs. “trad wife”): Both are responses to larger cultural swings and can be toxic if seen as absolutes ([27:38]).

9. The Impact of Changing Work Landscape

AI & New Insecurities:

• Careers and ambitions are being disrupted by tech and economics.
• Only 21% of people are engaged at work post-pandemic ([31:16]).
• Existential crisis is widespread, especially for young people and those in industries facing upheaval.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On gendered ambition penalties:

  "Men are rewarded for theirs, women, it's seen as a detractor... Women of color actually are the most ambitious cohort in corporate America, but experience the most backlash and the most headwinds."
  — Amina Altai, [11:01]

• On systemic traps:

  “It's almost virtually impossible to outwork a broken system.”
  — Amina Altai, [15:22]

• On ambition's cycles:

  "It's like a perennial flower... you go back underground, and maybe that ground is even fallow until it's nurtured enough that you can rise again."
  — Amina Altai, [15:27]

• On ambition beyond career:

  "Ambition is simply a desire for more life. It can look any way. What are the places and pockets where you have that desire for more life?"
  — Amina Altai, [16:39]

• On community and ambition:

  “That's a hallmark of painful ambition, is the toxic individualism. We get to thrive together. It's a collaborative effort.”
  — Amina Altai, [33:23]

• Action framework:

  “Decide, take action, observe, respond... and over the course of a year, our life will be wildly different.”
  — Amina Altai, [32:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:12] – Amina’s health crisis and turning point
• [07:47] – First steps toward recovery
• [11:01] – Gendered and systemic traps of ambition
• [12:26] – Painful vs Purposeful ambition (five core wounds)
• [15:27] – New model: cyclical nature of ambition
• [16:39] – Ambition in non-professional pursuits
• [18:37] – Supporting men’s ambition outside work
• [20:10] – Five-part framework for healthy ambition
• [25:34] – Challenge to hustle culture and the power of role models
• [27:38] – Discussion on polarization: girl boss vs. trad wife
• [31:16] – Impact of AI and workplace engagement crisis
• [32:00] – First steps: Decide, take action, observe, respond

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Conclusion

Amina Altai and Farnoosh Torabi deliver a powerful message: ambition is not inherently harmful, but context, motivation, and our systems shape whether it nourishes or depletes us. By recognizing wounds, challenging systemic traps, and allowing for seasons of ebb and flow—both in work and life—we reclaim ambition as a force for real, sustainable joy. The tools and frameworks offered here aim to prevent burnout and offer lasting fulfillment.

Resources:

• The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living by Amina Altai

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"We get to thrive together. It's a collaborative effort."
— Amina Altai, [33:23]

Transcript

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[Amina Altai]

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

So Money Episode 1880 the cost of.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Ambition how to afford Our Goals without burning out.

[Podcast Intro Narrator]

You're listening to SO MONEY with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers from Farnoose Yourself Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons? Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO money.

[Amina Altai]

We're told to speak truth to power. We're told to throw our hat in the ring. And then when we do those things, we're told that's inconvenient and that doesn't work and you're unlikable. And so then we try to outwork this broken system and then that's partly where we fall in the trap, Right? And so there's a systemic piece that we have to talk about and then a lot of us internalize that bias and then it becomes a mindset piece as well. So my book is split into those two parts of talking about the systems, but also what we make manifest in our own minds and our own practices that keep us in the trap.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Welcome to so Money, everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Question for you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What happens when ambition, the very quality that's supposed to fuel our success, ends up making us sick? My guest today, Amina Altai, knows this firsthand. On a sweltering July morning in New York, she got a call from her doctor that changed everything.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

She learned that if she didn't head to the hospital immediately, she was days.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Away from multiple organ failure. And the cause? Years of overwork and over striving rooted in her experience as the child of immigrants navigating a post 911 workplace with.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

An Arab name and feeling she had.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

To be the hardest working person in the room to matter. That wake up call set Amina on a journey of healing and reinvention, eventually becoming an executive coach to senior leaders.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And women around the world.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

From her work and her own life.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

She'S come to see that ambition isn't the enemy, but the way that we.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Relate to it can be. In her new book, the Ambition how.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

To Stop Chasing and Start Living, Amina.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Introduces us to two kinds of ambition. The painful kind, driven by wounds like rejection or injustice, and the purposeful kind, rooted in truth and wholeness. In our conversation, we're going to get.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

To the differences, how to spot them.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

How to break free from the painful ambition that leaves us exhausted and disconnected. And what it looks like to redirect that drive in ways that fuel us, support our communities and bring lasting fulfillment.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Amina Elthay, welcome to so Money. It's great to have you on the show.

[Amina Altai]

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I have been a longtime fan.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thank you. I love the message that you're putting out in the world. You have a new book out. It's called the Ambition Trap. Yeah, yeah. Did you know that you were trapped into ambition? This is going to resonate with so many of my listeners. And your subtitle is how to Stop Chasing and Start Living. And this is like so many wonderful thought leaders, your position on this arrived with a very Personal and scary experience. Health scare that kind of brought you into this world of studying ambition. Tell us about the time. I think it was a scorching summer morning in New York and you got some really scary health news.

[Amina Altai]

Yes. So I feel like I was supposed to study ambition in this lifetime. It's been a theme throughout my life. But it all came to a head. I was. I started my career in marketing and brand management, and I was six years into that career and I'm the child of immigrants and was just watching my parents and told to like, put your head down, work really hard, don't make waves. Have the great on paper career and the shiny things and everything will be great. And so I lived into that and it worked until it didn't work. So I'm six years into my marketing career and I start to get really sick. And I'd been to about seven different doctors before one is able to tell me what's going on. And it was a summer Friday, and I happened to be driving from Manhattan to a client in Connecticut, which I did every Friday at that time. And I get this call from my doctor, and I'll never forget what she says because it changed the trajectory of my whole life. But she said to me, amina, if you don't go to the hospital now, instead of going to your client, you will be days away from multiple organ failure. So basically, I had gotten so sick that I had two choices. Keep going the way that you're going or choose another way. And by virtue of the fact that I'm sitting here, it's clear that I chose another way. But it changed my whole life.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

What was the recovery from that? Like, just physical. Just forget, like the mental rethinking and the re. Rewiring of things that you have believed in. The bill of goods that we've trusted from working hard and working endlessly. But how did your body recover from that?

[Amina Altai]

It was layered and it was the kind of thing where you almost a bit like whack a mole, where you would work on one thing and then another thing would pop up and then you'd work on that thing and then another thing would pop up. And it took time and I had to be patient, which is not something, it's not a virtue of mine. But it took time. And then there was a moment where I hit my stride and I was so grateful to hit my stride. And I really feel like I was flowing, but it took a couple of years for me to like, really stabilize, which is hard to hear and was hard at the time.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

What were some of the immediate steps that you took? I don't know. Did you quit your job? Did you reduce your hours? Did you bake in some more quiet time during your week? Obviously, you're probably going back and forth to the doctors. You're. You're doing a lot. But what were some of the boundaries that you developed?

[Amina Altai]

Pretty quickly. Yeah. So I went on what I call my Eat Pray, Love year. I was still working, but I basically went on to study all these different things to feel better in my own life. And the day that I got that diagnosis, I actually went home and my roommate at the time was like, she was just randomly telling me. She said, oh, this woman that I work with went to life coaching. And I didn't ask any questions. I was like, where do I sign up? Like, I. I know my body knows that I need that thing because I've just made some choices that have not served me. And so I did this life coaching program, and then I was just in that space of, let me just try things. Right. What I've done before hasn't worked. If this feels warm, let me try this. If this feels warm, let me try this. So that year I studied coaching, Mindful somatics. I eventually went to nutrition school. Just all of these things to feel better. And then when I did, I was like, okay, I feel like I can mitigate the learning curve for others. I finally feel ready to pass this onward and eventually started my coaching practice from there.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

When was the moment you realized it was like, the misunderstanding or the abuse of this idea of achieving success that you had adopted or been practicing? Like, at what point did you make that connection? Okay, my understanding. Understanding of ambition and my approach to ambition is fraught. And that is what has partially led me to this point, because it could have been other lifestyle things too. But a lot of that is probably a factor of just working too hard and too long and being chasing these shiny objects. How did you get to the core of it? Understand that. Oh, it's my thinking around ambition.

[Amina Altai]

Right? This is such a good question because it actually took years. And I even wonder now, am I still at the core of it? I'm sure that there's still more to learn, because in the beginning, I really did think it was all of those lifestyle things, like, I'm not sleeping enough, I'm drinking too much caffeine. I have a family history of autoimmune disease. So it makes sense that if I'm in a stressful situation, that's where my body would Go. So that was my first stop of let me look at all the wellbeing practices, let me look at the lifestyle practices. But it wasn't until I would say 2018, 2019, 2020, I was starting to kind of cotton on to this idea of, oh, it's the way of working. Because as somebody with chronic illness, I was just watching my own flow and how I was working and offering some of those tools and tactics to my clients. But it was in 2020, at the height of the social justice uprisings, that I ended up coaching a handful of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled. And my book is not an analysis of cancel culture, but I was seeing patterns alive in them that were alive in my life, that were alive in my other clients lives that were also really high achievers. And I was like, huh? We're all operating in this system. We're moving the same way, and we're all getting lessons in different ways. And so it was from there that I really built out this framework on ambition. So that was like this. This boiling point, pressure point moment where I was able to see, oh, there's. This is really layered.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Are there gender differences in how women and men approach ambition? And I guess also follow up to that. Is it our faults, the fact that maybe women have a different approach because society expects them to show up differently? They don't get the trophies as quickly as the men, maybe, or they don't get. They don't get as many permissions to fail. And so that creates a more challenging road to being ambitious.

[Amina Altai]

Exactly. So this is the trap, right? It's like the playing field does not equal. And I think that we've long known that. So when you look at the data, women and people of color experience an ambition penalty. So the data was collected in a gender binary. So men and women enter the workforce with the same levels of ambition. Men are rewarded for theirs. Women, it's seen as a detractor. If you're an ambitious woman that negotiates her salary, you're seen as difficult and unlikable. Women of color actually are the most ambitious cohort in court corporate America, but experience the most backlash and the most headwinds, right? So there's this trap for us of we're told to take up space, we're told to speak truth to power, we're told to throw our hat in the ring. And then when we do those things, we're told that's inconvenient and that doesn't work and you're unlikable. And so then we try to Outwork this broken system. And then that's partly where we fall in the trap. Right. And so there's a systemic piece that we have to talk about and then a lot of us internalize that bias and then it becomes a mindset piece as well. So my book is split into those two parts of talking about the systems, but also what we make manifest in our own minds and our own practices that keep us in the trap.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Let's double click on the system. So let's say you are that woman at work who is ambitious and wants a raise and has all of the the points to meet that raise has exceeded expectations, driven revenue, all the things, right. And you've been taking notes and you've done all the things textbook wise that you're supposed to do to present yourself and make a case for earning more and they reject you. What next?

[Amina Altai]

Two things. So in the book I talk about there's two types of ambition. So I think ambition itself is neutral and natural. Right. I define it simply as a desire for more life, a wish to grow. So that can't be right for some people and wrong for others. Right. It's the world that we live in that is telling us this narrative. And. But there's two ways that our ambition can move. It can be painful ambition or it can be purposeful ambition. So painful ambition is ambition that's driven by a core wound. And there are five of them. Rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And so if we're coming from that place with our ambition, it's the house of cards. And that was partly my story. I had a rejection wound and then the mask that I wore was control. I had a betrayal wound. Sorry. The mask that I wore for rejection was avoidance. For the betrayal wound, the mask that I wore was control. So you have these wounds and then you have these masks that you wear. And when you build your ambition upon that, it's kind of a house of cards. So it's not our fault. Right. But when the come from is that place of pain, it has certain hallmarks that don't serve us us, right. We move at unsustainable paces, we instrumentalize our minds and bodies. We can be hyper individualistic. So the invitation is to pivot into purposeful ambition where we've done the work on the wounds and we're moving in a different way. So I think it's important to look at our side of the street. That's not the only thing. Right. But I think the work starts with us. And then I also think sometimes if the room doesn't understand us, we're in the wrong room. And so that's always the answer. It's not always quit your job, but you are probably an amazing human, right? You can probably contribute amazing things to another organization that will see you fully. So I think sometimes it's really important to recognize if we're in the wrong room.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah, I write about this in a healthy state of panic. A whole chapter on the fear of rejection, which I think dovetails so much what you're saying. This fear of rejection and our drive for ambition go hand in hand. And sometimes, though you're right when you're fearing rejection, let's question it, right? Let's not run away from it. Let's not pretend it doesn't exist. Let's not try to be fearless, but let's like, face the fear and go, why are you here? Is it because, like you pointed out, there are some holes to fill? Like maybe you haven't really done what you need to do to get across to the finish line. And so you go back and you do those things and then, or maybe it's again, to your point, you're in the wrong room. Like the rejection, you're fearing it because it's real and it has nothing to do about you necessarily. But this sort of, this group, the spaces, their mindset, and there's nothing really that you can do about that. And we, too often, we stay, we try to fix it.

[Amina Altai]

I think that's one of my toxic traits too. I like, literally like the idea of staying too long and can I fix all the things? And I think that's probably one of the things that exacerbates illness, injury and disease for a lot of people. We, I think women and women of color have a tendency to make ourselves wrong because so much of that story is mirrored back to us from the world. And so we can see, I can fix it, I can change it. I can do the work, I can outwork the problem, right? But I think it's almost virtually impossible to outwork a broken system.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

So what is the. The script flip that you want people to have around ambition?

[Amina Altai]

So I don't want anybody to be less ambitious. I'm one of the most ambitious people I know. I know you are too. And everybody listening, probably the same thing. But the invitation is to be in that right relationship with ambition. So as a culture, we come to understand ambition is more, for more sake all the time, right? More money, more power. And that's somehow going to make us, us feel whole. But it's not the truth. Right? We can get all the shiny objects, all the accolades. The work is on the inside. And so in the book, one of the things I talk about is how ambition actually goes in cycles. It's like nature. It's like a perennial flower. So you have these seasons where you want to grow, right? Maybe you want to write a book or get a promotion or get a raise. And so you nurture your inner and outer environment, and you have this beautiful momentary peak in the sun. It's gorgeous. And then the wind shift and the petals fall off, and you wind down and you go back underground, and maybe that ground is even fallow until it's nurtured enough that you can rise again. And so I want to invite us all into this cyclical nature with ambition, but also to allow it to be that purposeful nature as well. So not that pain fueled, driven by the core wounds, but instead connected to our deeper why.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah, and how about let's not just associate ambition with professional ambitions or financial ambitions.

[Amina Altai]

I love this. And I didn't get too deep into this in the book because I think that could actually be a second book. But when I was researching the book, I was having the conversation about ambition across the country, and it was so interesting because people inevitably fell into one of two camps. So camp A was, I'm highly ambitious, but that ambition has been expensive, and it's cost me something like my health, my joy, my relationships. And then camp B was, I've only seen a toxic version of ambition, so I reject it altogether. And I'll never forget having this conversation with a mother. And she was like, oh, no. Like, I don't do ambition. Ambition is gross. I don't know what you're talking about. And then she was talking to me about how she was parenting. And if we go back to my original definition of ambition is simply a desire for more life. She desired more life in her parenting. And I was like, that's ambition. That's a beautiful thing. Let's nurture and nourish that so we can be ambitious about parenting, about our friendships, about supporting our communities. It can look any way. What are the places and pockets where you have that desire for more life? Yes.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yes. And I know your book focuses on women primarily or at least attracts a women audience, understandably, because we just went through all of the reasons why we have a. A more difficult relationship with ambition. But I think for men, too, to hear this is so important, because for men, although their standards are different, there's limitations on what they're Allowed to be ambitious about. So I wrote the book called When She Makes More. And, like, I wrote it for women because that's who wanted the book written. But let's also give men the permission to change their definition of what it means to provide in a relationship that men have been told that to earn their manhood, they have to be financial providers, right? To be a good dad, a good husband, you gotta provide with your money and be the one who provides the most of that money. And so bringing this back to your thesis around ambition, what are the conversations you're having with men potentially around this and, like, the breakthroughs that they could be having?

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, I love this question. And I did write the book for historically excluded people just because nobody was talking about ambition and identity. And I think that it actually. It's so important that we talk about it because it is different. However, I'm in these rooms, right? I'm in these conferences, these ergs. And the men are asking. I had a really great question last week where I use the example about the person being ambitious about motherhood. And he said to me, you know what, if your managers want you to be more ambitious at work, but you're so happy being more ambitious about parenting because you get to be at the soccer games, you get to help with the homework. What do you do? How do you have a conversation with your manager about that? I was like, oh, I love this question, right? Because we have these different ideas about how men get to be ambitious. And here was one dad who really wanted to just be more ambitious about his family. And I was like, a negotiation, right? You get to decide what you're ambitious about, Right. Someone doesn't get to decide that for you and place that on you. That's a violation of your rights. And so it was just so beautiful to have this conversation and this dialogue with this person about, oh, I can have ambition as a man outside of work, and I can have ambition about being a father. And it can look different than what I was told.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

For those listening who want to avoid a crisis moment before they embrace this. This new way of thinking around ambition, what are some kind of. Not rigid transitions. Here's what you can start doing today, even if it's just writing down a list of things that would bring you more life into your life that's outside of work, just so we can feel like we're making progress along this pursuit of becoming more healthfully ambitious.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, okay. I'm just gonna be super honest. I think that most of us get our lessons when we get our lessons and sometimes we need like a big hit and a big shout before we'll choose another way. Because the growth edge is painful, right? Choosing another way is painful. So I don't think it's universally the case, but I do see a lot of people that kind of have a similar story to mine where they wait for the shout from the universe versus the little whispers. But I think to your point, asking ourselves what does make me feel more alive? In the book I actually have this five part framework around building more purposeful work. And building more purposeful work necessitates that we get on the court with our zone of genius. That we align our work with our values. That we connect to the bigger impact that we want to have, whether that's for our families, the community, or the greater good. That we cultivate a sense of contentment and that our needs are met. So you could pick any one of those five areas and be like, okay, my zone of Genius is XYZ. How can I spend 10 more minutes there today? Or here are my values and I notice that they don't necessarily align with the organization's values. So are there ways for me to get on the court with that? Whether that's volunteering for an erg or starting some sort of group inside of the organization? Or how can I cultivate a greater sense of contentment today? Or how can I meet my needs in a bigger way? How can I get one need met today?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

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[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And how about let's stop scrolling a little bit, a little less.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Because I think that once you start clicking on one thing that's maybe a seven figure entrepreneur that you idolize and then you're getting more of this hustle culture content. Do you think Hustle culture is dead or we still have a lot of repair. There's.

[Amina Altai]

I really don't love the language of Hustle. Right. There are definitely seasons where we need to effort a little bit more, right? It's writing a book, publishing a book, marketing a book. That's a season that requires quite a bit of effort. But I think if we allow ourselves to go in the cycles and we're not always over efforting, we can release some of that Hustle. So I would love for Hustle to be gone. Personally. It doesn't mean that we don't have to work hard. There are absolutely seasons that we do. But we can be more in that generative cyclical nature with the Hustle I think is really important and exactly what you said. I was leading a workshop last week for a big tech company and I was like, might be controversial in this room, but if you want to spend more time in your zone of genius, see if you can take those 10 minutes away from your scrolling. Right. I bet you can find 10 minutes a day because you're probably scrolling too much and taking in information that doesn't necessarily support the way that you want to be working. One of my friends talks about belief system expanders. So the idea of when we want to shift into a new way of being and we're not quite sure if we can do it yet, we want to look at people that can expand our belief system of what's possible. So looking for people that move in a more flowy way that have released Hustle already, that aren't in that rise and grind lifestyle and then it starts to feel more possible for us too.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

You mentioned earlier this backlash to ambition where people will say I'm not ambitious, as though it's a bad thing. And then you actually look at their lives and they're super ambitious about again, these things that we don't associate with ambition like Family or health or anything like that outside of career and money, like, ambition doesn't exist.

[Amina Altai]

That's.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

That's not true. But then, of course, we have the rise of the trad wife right on online. I'm sure this has come up in many of your conversations where there is a. Like a polarization of either you're a girl boss or you're a kept woman, a kept wife. And I wonder what you make of it. Like, I don't. I find it completely toxic. But do you think it's in response to this toxicity in the ambition culture.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That has led to this, or there's.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Some other stuff going on?

[Amina Altai]

I think that it's probably a confluence of a lot of cultural experiences that are happening right now. That sort of 180. I think it probably is in part to so much of what we've seen with the girl boss era and hyper masculization and the pendulum swinging in other directions. But lots of pendulums are swinging. That, I think, is adding complexity to that conversation. For sure.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah. You published this book in May, and now we're airing this in September. So as I ask with all my authors, there's been probably a lot of reflection. You've met so many people. You hinted already at maybe book number two, but have there been ideas around ambition or, you know, stories that have inspired a new level or a new direction that's like an offshoot of this book for your next book?

[Amina Altai]

That's such an interesting question. And I think I'm still very much in it. And I'm also, like, not putting pressure on myself to, like, what is the next book?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Look at me. I'm bidding, I'm making. I'm part of the problem. I'm like, what's next?

[Amina Altai]

You're wonderful. So actually, I really loved how my book launch flowed. So I launched in May. And so I was doing a lot of events between May and June, a lot of podcasts. And then the summer slows down for everybody. So I had this nice little reprieve where I was working like three days a week. I was still doing a podcast here and there, that kind of thing. And it's picked back up for the fall. But I really appreciated that. Cause I was like, oh, this is ebbing and flowing with my idea that ambition goes in cycles. How nice that this is lining up this way. And I think I'm still very much here with an ear to the ground, understanding how this work is landing. I'm getting a lot of people asking me about, how do we support our children? And I love this question. So many parents in the room said, I had a similar relationship with ambition as you did, and it was really expensive and it hurt. I don't want that for my kids. What can I do to support them so they don't have to go way? And so I love that so many parents are asking this question, wanting to set the next generation up really well. So I don't know. That's the next book. I don't think I'm equipped to write a book for children, but I think that maybe with a co author. But I think that I just have an ear to the ground right now and I'm really listening, taking in how the work is landing. And somebody said to me, another author friend, she was like, it takes a year for people to really digest. She's. They buy the book, but they don't read the book immediately. So it takes a while for the information to get digested and for people to have reflections on it. So. So I'm in deep listening mode.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah. Things are changing also so quickly. Right. With AI, I'm just thinking even if you write a book for, let's say, a rising college student or a college student that's about to go into the workforce, not that AI is going to redefine ambition, but if you're ambitious in a particular field. Right. Let's talk about careers like that could be very. Could look very different within a matter of six months or a year. But I do think a lot of young people are having this existential crisis caused by AI right now. They're not getting the jobs that they thought they would have after completing four years of college, maybe even masters. And I hope they're doing the right kinds of questioning and not questioning so much their potential, but more like how to rethink their place in the new world and how to be ambitious as the world is evolving. I think there's a lot there that we don't have the data yet to really understand what is happening. But it's happening.

[Amina Altai]

It is. I think it's a wild time to be a human, and it's a wild time to be a person with a job or looking for a job. Like Gallup, State of the workplace said. Right. 21% of people are engaged, which is not a whole lot. It's the lowest that it's been since the beginning of the pandemic.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Engaged in work or just engaged in work.

[Amina Altai]

Thank you for clarifying. And it's a really hard time to be a human with a job. And I think AI is shifting a lot of that. I also have a lot of clients in entertainment. Right. And so that industry has been decimated. That industry has changed so much. And I'm having a lot of conversations with folks who are having existential crises because they said, hey, I thought this was my purpose. Right. And now it's just imploded and I can't live into this dream that I've had. So what's next for me? And so the world is changing so rapidly, and I think so many of us are asking ourselves, what is the next for me? What can I contribute in this new world? And it's heartbreaking for so many people.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

All right, your last piece of advice for someone listening and they're like, I'm trapped. What are some first steps they can take after this podcast?

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. So oftentimes when we feel really trapped, we have a. We're frozen. Right. So we're in a freeze response. And so we feel like we don't. Can't take a singular action. And so in the book, I talk a lot about nervous system work and how nervous system work has really supported me. And in the body of work that I've been immersed in for the last couple of years, one of the things they say is decide, take action, observe, respond. And I love this because it's a moment to moment invitation versus like the question of what is my purpose is so huge. Right. It's. And the idea of a singular North Star is too much for most of us. So decide what is the single action that I can take. Take that single action, observe what happens as a result of taking that action and then respond accordingly. Right. So the decision could be as small as I want to DM this person. Okay. They responded to me and I can set up a conversation with them. Observe how I feel in that conversation. I feel really lit up by what they're saying and the advice that they're offering me. Now I'm going to action on the things that they told me about. Right. So that moment to moment, decide, take action, observe, respond. And just doing that. And over the course of a year, our life will be wildly different.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Amazing, brilliant advice. Decide, take action, observe, respond. And you'd be surprised. More people are willing to help you than you give them credit for. Like, I think that's part of the ambition trap too, is you think you have to be ambitious by yourself.

[Amina Altai]

Exactly.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

But why not bring people with you?

[Amina Altai]

Exactly. That's a hallmark of painful ambition, is the toxic individualism we get to thrive together. It's a collaborative effort.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Amina Altai, thank you so much. We're so thrilled to have you on the show. Thank you for your patience. I know your book came out in May, but I think now with every everything picking up again in the fall and a lot of us are trying to finish the year strong but also looking forward to the new year and maybe making some big differences in our approach to ambition. Very timely and important. To have you on the Ambition Trap everybody had to stop chasing and start living. We have got the link in our show notes. Thank you.

[Amina Altai]

Thank you so much for having me. You are queen. It was such a joy to be here and thank you everyone for listening.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Thanks so much to Amina Altai for joining us. Her book again is called the Ambition Trap. I'll see you back here on Friday everybody.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thanks for tuning in and I hope your day is so Money.

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