← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
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- [00:00]
Goli Kalkaran
Hi, I'm Madupa Akinola from TED Business and I'm here to talk about the Financial Times. Every day the world bombards you with endless headlines and noise. What matters most? Facts and context. That's where the Financial Times comes in. With clarity, depth and truly independent reporting, the FT helps you cut through the noise and see what's real and why it matters. Stay informed with the trusted source leaders around the world rely on. Visit FT.comSourceFT to read more and save 40% on a digital FT subscription.
- [00:40]
Farnoosh Karabi
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy.
- [00:50]
Goli Kalkaran
It's pretty much all he talks about.
- [00:52]
Farnoosh Karabi
In a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy.
- [01:00]
Goli Kalkaran
What's in your wallet?
- [01:01]
Farnoosh Karabi
Term supply see capital1.com bank capital1 NA member FDIC the best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people I kept seeing ads for extreme mountain bikes and I'm more of a city walk person. If Your goal is CFOs, founders or finance pros, LinkedIn ads let you reach the right decision maker. So when you wanna reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com somoney that's LinkedIn.com somoney. Terms and conditions apply. So Money Episode 1892 how to Quit your job once and for all with Goli Kalkaran, founder of Lessons from a Quitter. You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Karabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.
- [02:33]
Goli Kalkaran
Corporate America Capitalism. They have their vested interest in like keeping you however they want to keep you in one profession, let's say. But when you look at like a human being, it's absurd to Think that, like, you're the same person in your 20s that you are in your 30s or your 40s or your 50s. Of course you're changing. Like, if I told you you have to hang out with the same people and go to the same restaurants that you were, you can't quit. You chose that. You got.
- [02:56]
Farnoosh Karabi
My mother would love that. Let me tell you, people, some creatures.
- [02:59]
Goli Kalkaran
Of habit, some people do love that. But I think for the rest of us, it's like, yeah, I don't like that anymore.
- [03:04]
Farnoosh Karabi
Welcome to Sew Money, everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. It's September 18th, and we're talking about what's on a lot of people's minds in 2024, quitting their jobs. Yes, it's reminiscent of the Great resignation, but in 2024, about 50% of workers are eyeing the exit, and that's according to Link and a Microsoft study that says more people want to quit their jobs now than even during the pandemic, whether it's because they want to find better paying work to address the rising cost of living, or just getting the heck out of your company or your industry and starting fresh on a professional path that you actually enjoy. But will they quit? Is the question. And if you're thinking of quitting, are you going to do it? Our guest today is helping people jump the hurdle. Goli Kal Koran is a master certified life coach and a former attorney who helps unfulfilled professionals create a career and a life that they actually like. She's the host of the Lessons From a Quitter podcast where she uses her platform to destigmatize quitting and provide resources and inspiration to individuals who want to pivot from their established careers. We talk about why our culture is so afraid of quitting, how to actually afford the move both financially and energetically. And Goalie shares her own difficult journey of quitting her law career and the many pivots that followed. Here's Goli Kalkarad. Guli Kal Koran. Welcome to Sew Money. I can't wait to learn how to quit like a pro.
- [04:36]
Goli Kalkaran
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
- [04:39]
Farnoosh Karabi
Among all of your accolades, you are also an expert napper. Which. Did you see that study that found that those of us, like me and you, who need naps, we have bigger brains?
- [04:49]
Goli Kalkaran
I always knew that it was a sign of intelligence, right?
- [04:53]
Farnoosh Karabi
It's not laziness, it's not fatigue. It's just, well, it is fatigue. Our brains are working overtime.
- [04:59]
Goli Kalkaran
Absolutely. I Was actually just talking about this with my. In my community, half the world takes naps. Like it's a part of the culture. Like, it's.
- [05:07]
Farnoosh Karabi
Exactly.
- [05:07]
Goli Kalkaran
Simply because we decided that we need to work all the time here doesn't mean that, like, that's how our bodies are made. So I feel like we're just actually listening to the way that the human body should be operating.
- [05:18]
Farnoosh Karabi
Yeah. And speaking of which, we should be de. Stigmatizing, quitting. We've also been operating under this expectation that success means sticking to something, pushing through, enduring at all costs. And you have built an entire platform around just this idea of, hey, you think you need to quit? I'm gonna help you. I think that's okay. I. I first want to just understand. And before we get into, like, your own quitting journey and all the ways that you're. Everybody, you know, how did we arrive at this place where so many of us. And I don't know if it's just the media is covering this a lot. Obviously the pandemic led to a lot of burnout. But for me, I wonder if it's also generational from my perspective, where we suddenly have a lot of people that are not settling. You know, we rush into a career, we go, what is this it? And then we desire to pivot. Whereas I feel like my parents and my parents friends, they just stuck to it, and it was never like they were so overjoyed by their careers, but for them, that wasn't even the point. Yeah. And so where did we sort of shift that culturally? Where did that paradigm shift happen?
- [06:31]
Goli Kalkaran
I think there's a couple of things that have happened and in the landscape of careers that have sort of forced that shift. One, I think, is that during our parents, generations, there might have not been as much opportunity. Like, for instance, 30, 40 years ago, most people, you know, like, entrepreneurship wasn't an option because the only way to be an entrepreneur was brick and mortar store, tons of capital, things like that. It wasn't. There was no online entrepreneurship. And so for most people, it was like the only way to meet ends meet is to have a job. And oftentimes that was also limited, you know, by geography. And there was no remote working. There was only so limited of, like, opportunities that you had. So I think when you don't have as much choice for better, for better or worse, sometimes you're happier because it's like that. I have these three options. You know, I'm going to be one of these three things. I'm just going to choose one Whereas as technology has progressed, we obviously have way more options. And people are seeing like, hey, I don't have to put up with, you know, these terrible conditions at the factory. Like, I could maybe go do this thing or I could work remotely, I could gain these skills. Yeah, I think it was that. I also think it's a, the same benefits that our parents got, we don't get. And I think a lot of people, you know, did try to do that same paradigm of like giving loyalty and staying at a place and trying to climb the ladder. And then they got laid off or they got kicked out or the pensions aren't there. And so it's like, I think a lot of people just became disillusioned and woke up and it was like, why am I giving everything to this company that is willing to kick me out on, you know, my butt as soon as they need to? And there isn't this loyalty. It's not a family. And so I think people, our generation started being like, wait a second, like this seems very one sided and I need to look out for myself. And so for me, I'm going to start thinking about where else I can work and all that stuff. And I think quitting became more acceptable.
- [08:23]
Farnoosh Karabi
I think that's so true. That's so true. And you're right. Back in the 80s, you weren't going to start a dot com, you weren't going to start a coaching business reaching millions of people globally. You couldn't, you were limited.
- [08:35]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah.
- [08:36]
Farnoosh Karabi
How much of it do you know? I mean, we'll talk about this later, perhaps we'll get into it more. But you brought up this notion of we see these options and we think, oh, well, am I really happy doing what I'm doing? So sometimes fomo. Yeah. You know, can be misleading. Totally. And so just quickly like touching on that piece of it because I think I want, I want people to feel, not feel like they're being drawn to something just because it's like the cool, popular, exciting, like entrepreneurship. I'm using air quotes. Right. It kind of gets cast as this like, better way to live out your career aspirations. But it's not always.
- [09:14]
Goli Kalkaran
No. I think that the thing that tends to get lost, especially in social media, is nuance. And I think the more we all can really accept that most things are.
- [09:25]
Farnoosh Karabi
And.
- [09:25]
Goli Kalkaran
Right. It's not either or entrepreneurship is amazing and it can give you a lot of freedoms and it can provide a lot of opportunities and people see that and that's great. And it's not as easy as People say it is and it doesn't happen in six months. You know, you're not making six figures in six months. And so I think a lot of times people get swayed one way or the other. I also see people being like, oh, this is all a hoax, it's all a scam. Businesses don't. And it's like, no, a lot of people are really creating really great businesses and but it's not as easy as, you know, the Instagram gurus want you to believe and to buy their courses or whatnot. And so it's like, nailed it. Yeah, you have to kind of know both. And it's okay to want that to say like, I want more freedom, I want more flexibility. And it might not be, you know, as this like shiny thing that everybody is kind of showing me.
- [10:12]
Farnoosh Karabi
Yes. Getting into your story a little bit on your website, you talk about how you're in addition to an expert napper, the quintessential risk averse, people pleasing, type A personality. You studied hard, you got good grades, you followed the predictable path to a great law school. And then never really questioning what being a lawyer actually meant. I mean, that for me was very much my narrative too. I think. Like, I got to college, I was goalie until college, and then I was like, I'm gonna study pre law. And then I was like, wait a minute, I don't actually like political science and I don't wanna. Most lawyering involves sitting at a desk. It's not like law and Order.
- [10:50]
Goli Kalkaran
No.
- [10:51]
Farnoosh Karabi
What was the permission that you were failing to give yourself along that road of excell? It didn't even occur to you that you could stop and be like, what do I want? Right. Why or how were you not giving yourself permission?
- [11:03]
Goli Kalkaran
That's such a great question. And I was gonna say you were much smarter than me. Cause you kind of caught on faster than I did in college. I waited until I got through law school. Honestly, I can't even explain how, like, I didn't even realize it was a possibility. I didn't realize I could even question and say like, maybe I don't want to go to college or maybe I don't want a grad degree. Like I. This path was laid out for me and I was, you know, lucky or unlucky enough to be really good in school. And you start getting that, you know, the pats on the head and the validation and so you're like, I'm doing something right. And so I didn't even have the wherewithal to question and be like, Maybe this isn't the path. And I think at the time, I really had bought into the narrative of, like, society and, like, well, you know, like, work isn't fun, and you just have to pick something and you're going to be an adult and you got to be stable and you got to find a career that you're going to be successful in. And so it wasn't even, like, there was times in college that I thought, like, maybe I could go into another. Let's say, you know, do I want to be a psychologist? Do I want to be, like, I did think about maybe potentially other fields, but there was never even a questioning of, like, what do I want? I had so bought into this idea of, like, it doesn't matter what you want. Like, this is what you do. I think, you know, as the daughter of immigrants, as, like, I'm sure you relate. It's like you. You just see such hard work and, like, hardworking parents and people, and a lot of people that don't get to, like, see what they feel like every day, and you're like, okay, well, who cares how I feel? Like, you gotta get the good grades so you can get, like, this is the step. Follow the steps. Don't ask questions. Do well and you'll be okay. And I truly did not look up and look around until I graduated law school. Like, I went through law school, and when I got to, you know, be a lawyer, that's when I finally was like, oh, I made a mistake. Where am I? I don't want this. And it was, you know, much later than I think a lot of other people might have questioned it.
- [12:58]
Farnoosh Karabi
And it took you a year to. To go from, I don't like this to I'm going to quit. Thanks to your husband's support.
- [13:06]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah.
- [13:06]
Farnoosh Karabi
What were some of the highs and lows of that year? What were the fears you were feeling? And I'd love to now kind of grow into talking about this sort of global frame of, like, what all of us fear around quitting and what you want to educate people on. Sure.
- [13:20]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah. And I, you know, I have to say, like, it took seven years of me working as a lawyer and being miserable the whole time to even get to that year.
- [13:27]
Farnoosh Karabi
The whole time. Not even one bright spot.
- [13:29]
Goli Kalkaran
I mean, yes, there was times where I was. The money was good. The money was good in certain things. I was a public defender for a lot of it. I was very passionate about the cause. There were certain things that I did like about it, but I, on the whole, was sort of Felt very trapped from the beginning. And I think that it even took me really seven years of being of knowing deep down that this isn't right and continuing to do it. To even get to that year where I started questioning, like for those previous seven, I wouldn't even let myself question it. It was like again, like, okay, well this is what you've done, this is your degree, you got to stick to it. And I think in that year, what my husband really did help me kind of parse out was it started very, I think for me it had to start very small. It was just the seedling of like, is there something else I could do even with this law degree? Like, I really started with like, what's adjacent to law? What's like, what could I use this law degree to get another job in? I mean, I wasn't even like far fetched of like, I want to be an entrepreneur. Like, that was nowhere on the horizon. It was simply like, if I'm so unhappy doing this, could I look at other lawyers and see what they do with their law degrees? Maybe I'll go work at a law school. Maybe I'll, you know. But that was sort of the start of it. And the more I started like really kind of pulling at that thread and admitting to myself, like, I am unhappy here and it's okay for me to say that I don't want to do this. And that took me a really long time to admit that even to myself, like, not even out loud, but to say, like, am I really gonna, you know, at the time I thought, quote unquote, throw away 10 years of schooling and you know, over a hundred thousand dollars that I paid for the degree and all of the years that I built up this resume and all of this stuff, like, and I had like really, you know, successful jobs and I went to a great law school and stuff. So it was like, you're throwing away all of this. And so I think that's a lot of the big fear for a lot of people is, am I wasting all of this time? What if I regret it? That was a big one. I was like, what if I leave this and in a year I've ruined my prospects. I can never get a job in the login. And so I was, it was very like catastrophizing of like, I'll never recover from this. And so it took me a year to sort of calm myself down, to be like, maybe it's okay, maybe I could find something else. Maybe even if this doesn't work, I can come back, you know, like, can I make room for that and start dealing with just these overblown fears that I had that obviously turned out not to be true? And so that's what I was sort of grappling with in that year.
- [15:53]
Farnoosh Karabi
Yeah, we all go through that cyclone of doom, you know, but it's like we forget that you can make a choice and then you can make another choice. Like, choices aren't finite, life isn't finite, pivots aren't finite. But I want to talk about affordability, like when, you know, you can afford to quit financially and energetically. You know, when the great resignation and the quiet quitting movement were happening and we were reading all about these heroic stories of people either defying their employers while at work or just leaving. This was like during the pandemic. And as we were emerging from the out of the pandemic, I couldn't help but think that, oh, well, this is kind of a privilege, right? To be able to walk out of your office without anything else lined up. And that's not something everyone can afford to do because a job pays and life costs. Sure. So what are your thoughts on that? How can. What's your advice for someone who's like, okay, I'm ready, I have the mindset, but I just don't know if this is the right financial move for me.
- [16:54]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It is a privilege. And I think everyone's situation is different, so everybody's plan should be different. And that's, you know, whether it's good or bad. And obviously it's not fair, but it is what it is. And the thing that I try to really get people to understand is that there's two parts to this. There's the math, which is like the actual finances, and then there's all the mental drama. And that's really what we have to get clear on. Because what happens is you're right. Like, there are some people who cannot quit right now. Right. Like, we need the income. We wouldn't be able to make our expenses. Fine. Can we start then planning like, okay, how much do you need to save in order to be able to quit? Would you be able, like, if your expenses, would they be able to be covered with, let's say, a part time job while you work on something else? Like, you can start then kind of looking at like, what are my options? Can I quit in three years, in five years? Can I work towards that instead of like torturing myself every day and telling myself I want to quit when I Can't. The other side of that coin though, a lot of what I've talked about and where I was, what was fascinating in my situation is I did have the privilege, I had a spouse and we had saved a lot of money and we could leave. And I still was so sold on this belief that we were going to be financially ruined if I left. Right. And this is what I mean by the mental drama. Like I have coached so many people who create these like financial runways and they say, okay, this is my number and when I get to this, I'll quit. And then they get to that and they're still scared. So they're like, no, no, I need to one more year, I'll work one more and then I'll get to that. Right. And so it's like there are some people that do have the privilege and still stay and are miserable and are like on anti anxiety and anti depressants and having panic attacks but can't get them to self delete because they're so, we've been so ingrained on like if you don't have a paycheck every two weeks, you're gonna become homeless living in a van down by the river, you.
- [18:33]
Farnoosh Karabi
Know, and like so much of your identity.
- [18:35]
Goli Kalkaran
Yes, totally.
- [18:36]
Farnoosh Karabi
And which is survival. We need to know who we are 100%.
- [18:41]
Goli Kalkaran
There's so much wrapped up in it. But that's what I mean by the mental drama is like, I think the math of it, of course you can't overlook. You have to know your finances. You have to know, can I even quit? Is it a possibility? What would that look like? Do I need to bring some income in? Like, but that actually relatively, it's like relatively easy to figure out. The rest of it is what's so hard to overcome like this. Who am I if I'm not a lawyer? What is everyone going to think about me? What if this ruins my prospect of like making money in 10 years? Like those are questions you, there isn't a, you know, really good answer or certainty. And so what I have found is that like oftentimes when people do get down to the nitty gritty of the money, it's something that they can create a plan around. They can decide like, okay, I can't quit now, but my goal is going to be the next three years. I'm going to like save as much as I can. I'm going to pay down this debt, I'm going to do whatever to be able to quit. Then I'm working towards something as opposed to I Think oftentimes when we're, like, just spinning in the what ifs. What if this doesn't work? What if I regret it? Then we, like, never move forward with anything. We never even look at our finances. We have no idea what it even looks like. And so that's sort of what I counsel people to do, is like, at least let's get really intimate with the numbers. So, you know, could you even quit?
- [19:55]
Farnoosh Karabi
Right? And so how did you decide what you were going to do next?
- [20:01]
Goli Kalkaran
I wish I could say that. Like, oh, my God, it was, like, this wonderful plan and I just executed it. But no. And the reason I actually started my podcast, Lessons from a Quitter, and I started this helping people is because it took me three or four years to stumble my way through it. Like, I spent so much time in shame and guilt and all of these really negative thoughts about myself and about how I failed and about how I failed my family and all of this extra thing that I didn't need to have. I like the nitty gritty of how I started figuring out is I was. When I say I hadn't looked up, like, I was so lost. I was like, I don't even know what other jobs there are. So I just started going to meetup groups. This was back in, like, 2014, right? So I was just like, I went to so many meetup groups that I had no business being at, but I was like, I just want to see what these people do. Like, I wanted to ask them, like, how did you get it? What, like, people talk about, like, product manager. I was like, I don't know what that means. Like, what is a product manager at Google? What do you do? You know? And so I would start just, like, trying to be like, I need to figure out what else is out there. And, like, what can I do? And I would meet with people, and I would reach out to people and set up informational interviews and do all of these things to try to get an idea. And it just so happened that at a lot of these meetups, I was just pulled towards the entrepreneurship type meetups. Like, every time I went to those, I felt the most alive. I felt the most excited. Like, I love talking to those people about what they were doing. And so it started again, planting a seed of, like, could I start a business? And you know what's really fascinating is sometimes, like, we spent so much time doubting ourselves, and I spent so much time. Even at the time, like, I kept telling myself, I don't know what I'm doing. I Have no idea. Like I could never start a business. And I would go to these meetups where like, it's like these 23 year old bros that would get up and do like a Shark Tank style pitch. No background in anything. Have never made just the. All the confidence in the world.
- [21:48]
Farnoosh Karabi
Mediocre white man. Have that confidence. Just have that confidence. Seriously.
- [21:51]
Goli Kalkaran
And it would make me like, question. I'm like, I have a law degree from like a top 10 law school. I've succeeded in every job I've ever. Like, why do I think I can't do this? You know? And it was a really like good way of me like starting to see how much I was doubting myself and how much of this imposter syndrome was bullshit. And, and so that sort of started, you know, getting me on the road of wanting to build a business. And I built another business that was completely unrelated. It's a photo booth business. So I, I say all this to say it was a very long road. And when I.
- [22:24]
Farnoosh Karabi
Wait, you say a photo booth business?
- [22:26]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah.
- [22:27]
Farnoosh Karabi
Wow.
- [22:28]
Goli Kalkaran
Was very random.
- [22:30]
Farnoosh Karabi
Do you still have the photo booth?
- [22:32]
Goli Kalkaran
I do, I still have the photo booth. We still use them for our parties. It's sort of. And I learned so much in that business. I learned hardware, I learned, I made software, I like learned manufacturing. And it was such a confidence boost for me to be like, I just learned all of these things I had no idea how to do. And I built a product and I put it out there and I sold and I made a successful business. And so but like I said, that wasn't like overnight. It took me a while. And that was, it was through that that I really changed how I thought about myself, how I thought about my future, how I thought about quitting. Which is where it sort of led me to like lessons from a quitter and wanting to have this conversation and being like, why do we think that we can't change? Because I did think I couldn't change until I did. And so that's sort of how I ended up here.
- [23:14]
Farnoosh Karabi
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- [26:23]
Goli Kalkaran
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- [26:33]
Farnoosh Karabi
Can see what's coming.
- [26:34]
Goli Kalkaran
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- [26:44]
Farnoosh Karabi
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- [26:48]
Goli Kalkaran
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- [26:55]
Farnoosh Karabi
Do you want to change the word quit to something else? What?
- [26:59]
Goli Kalkaran
Well, I don't want to change the word quit. I want to change the connotation. That's why I've had so many people tell me, like, you should change your brand. People don't like to be called a quitter. You know, like, people don't. And I was like, yeah, that's the point. You, we can make it flowery. We could talk. Let's call it a pivot if you want, fine, but it's still quitting, right? And, like, I think that there's nothing wrong with that word. I think the fact that we have been misled into this BS of like, you know, winners never quit and quitters never went. No, of course winners quit. They figure out what's not working and they quit it very quickly and then they keep moving on to the thing that is going to work. Right? And yeah, I think that, listen, corporate America, capitalism, they have their vested interest in, like, keeping you however they want to keep you in one profession, let's say. But when you look at, like a human being, it's absurd to think that, like, you're the same person in your 20s that you are in your 30s or your 40s or your 50s. Of course you're changing. Like, if I told you, you have to hang out with the same people and go to the same restaurants that you were, you can't quit. You chose that. You got.
- [27:56]
Farnoosh Karabi
My mother would love that. Let me tell you, people, some creatures of habit, you know, people do love that.
- [28:00]
Goli Kalkaran
But I think for the rest of us, it's like, yeah, I don't like that anymore. Like, I did that. That was nice. Now I'm in a different place in my life. And so I'm really, like, passionate about getting people to not, you know, recoil at the word of like, yeah, I am quitting this. The chapter is done. It was great. And I'm Ready to move on to something else.
- [28:18]
Farnoosh Karabi
I so agree with you on all of those points. I like to think of life as a series of experiments. I love that, you know, going into something new with the expectation that it could end. Whether you force it to end or someone. Other forces cause an ending. We don't like endings either. We are so terrified of things ending. But just think of it as you go in with the hypothesis of like, this could work out or not. And then, you know, and just see life as a series of trials. And with trials come success and error. But that's how you grow and that's how you know about the next thing you want to do. Sometimes I feel like, I mean, I have a perfect example of this where. And now I'm going to annoy the one person in the audience who wrote a review recently who was like, farnish talks too much during her interviews.
- [29:08]
Goli Kalkaran
I love it.
- [29:08]
Farnoosh Karabi
I feel like I'm trying to add constructive examples. It's a conversation, people. But like, everyone knows I worked at CNET for about 20 months during the pandemic. And I went in, you know, wide eyed and I was like, this is a very different kind of partnership. Everyone's well intentioned. We are like gonna try to make this work. But as a, it didn't. Why? Because, well, the pandemic, the economy got worse, they had lots of layoffs. AI changed the game for that media company. And the work that I was doing was not, let's just say it wasn't the priority anymore. So no hard feelings, move on, move on, move up. And I kept relationships with a lot of the people that I worked with. And I think that that is the one thing that I want to sort of offer to everyone too. When you go, I'm sure even from your law experience, right, like, you did not abandon those relationships or the learnings, like, you take so much still with you. The title goes away. Yes. The salary goes away. Yes. But the everything else stays with you. It becomes who you are and what you bring into the next opportunity. And I'm currently working with someone that I used to work with at CNET on a different project. So in some ways, like, that wasn't. That was not a failure. That was just sort of like a means to a new end or a new opportunity. And I guess age helps, you know, being now if I 44, as opposed to like when I first got laid off or when, you know, thinking about quitting in my 20s just felt like such a dead end. But now I know that, you know, sometimes things have to end or they're good to. It's good to end things. You know, Seinfeld ended, and people were upset about that, but, like, everyone from that show, most people went on to do much better and, you know, cool things.
- [30:57]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah. I think that you've touched on so many things that I think is important for people to understand, like. Yeah, human beings in general, like, our minds hate uncertainty, and we hate change and we hate end. And yet that's the only guarantee in life is that things are going to constantly change and they're going to end. And I feel like the more you resist it, the harder you make it for yourself, right? The more you're trying to hold on with two hands to something that is ending. Instead of, like you said, I mean, like, sort of going with the flow of, like, this is the experiments of my life. I think for a lot of us, like, you can resist it all you want. It's still gonna change. You just get to decide how you're gonna react to it. Right. And you can learn from it. You can be like, what can I, you know, take with me? And I think that this whole idea about failure, again, in our society is such a ridiculous notion that we've been taught, like, nobody in the history of the world that has ever created anything is like, you know what? Never had any problems. Everything I did worked out. I did it completely, 100% correct. Never had an obstacle. It's like, there is no way. Like, if that's what you're waiting for, then you're never gonna try anything. You're never gonna do anything. Right? It's like, no matter. You know, we don't look at someone like kids who are trying to walk or ride a bike, and it's like, oh, you failed. You should probably stop. You should.
- [32:08]
Farnoosh Karabi
That.
- [32:08]
Goli Kalkaran
That looks really embarrassing for you. It's like, yeah, that's how you learn, right? I love the saying, you either get the result you wanted or the lesson you needed. And I feel like when you look at the world like that, when you're like, okay, I didn't get the result right now, like, I wanted this to, and it didn't work, what can I learn from this and take to the next one, right? And build on it and, like, that becomes sort of the foundation that you build your successes. I think so many more people would try so many things if they realize, like, it doesn't mean anything about you. It just means you tried something one way. Like you said an experiment like this hypothesis. We tried it one way. That didn't work. Let's try something else.
- [32:43]
Farnoosh Karabi
Yeah. These four letter words that start with F. Mine is fear. I want to rebrand that. You want to rebrand? Failure, failing. I want to just before you go, I want to double click on toxic bosses. I hear this a lot from people I coach and even audience members who write to me. They're in a job that they love on paper, like actually do love it too, you know, the ins and outs. But they have terrible colleagues or bosses. And I, I mean, I can so relate to this. As a young 20 something, that was like my first hurdle in corporate. But what is your advice? You often talk about just like, we need to do the reframe, we can't change the boss, we shouldn't necessarily quit over this. No.
- [33:28]
Goli Kalkaran
Well, and that's the thing is like, obviously this is going to be very, you know, blanketed advice and it depends on your specific situation because I know I'm going to get like some kind of message. And it's like, yeah, if you're being harassed or you're in an abusive place, like, of course you need to like, figure out how to protect yourself and you can, you should leave. But one of the things, I think that those terms, just like so many buzzwords that found their way into social media are extremely, you know, overused. And so I think you really have to question, like, is this person toxic or is it like a difficult person? Or like our personalities don't mesh or like, you know, I think I coach so many people and it's like, well, their boss just isn't as warm and fuzzy as they would like the boss to be. You know, it's like, well, that's just what it is. Like this person is this way. And the reason I don't advise people to quit over that is because there is no job you're going to go to where you are going to get along with everyone all the time, where you're going to love all your co workers and your clients are all going to be great and your boss is going to be wonderful. It's like, you don't get along with your family to hang out eight hours a day, five days a week. You know, like, it's not going to happen. So when you learn how to deal with difficult people, you can sort of gauge like, okay, can I make this relationship work without having to leave? Because this person is like this. And so typically my advice is really look at, like, what is it about their actions that bothers me and does it actually affect my job? What I mean Is like, yeah, would I like them to not micromanage me or would I like them to not, you know, act this way or whatever? Be like there be. Of course I would. I would love for people to set boundaries and I would love for them to be the way that I want them to be, but they're not going to be the way that I want them to be. So can I just accept, like they get to be how they are and I get to decide how I show up to that. And that might mean I advocate for myself, that might mean I limit my interactions, but for me, a lot of what changed is like, I would give so much energy to it. Like for so many of us, we get so upset about it and then we go home and we bitch about it to our, you know, spouse and we talk about it with our co workers and like anything else, it starts growing. Like, then you start, you're like looking for it, you know, and you start like, why did he say it like this? And why is he looking like that?
- [35:34]
Farnoosh Karabi
And.
- [35:35]
Goli Kalkaran
And you miss everything else that that person does. And I'm not saying like, you have to have all this empathy and love them, but I think like when I can, you know, for instance, I deal with a difficult person who's passive aggressive. Like, I sort of turned it into like a game. I was like, I wonder how many passive aggressive comments they're gonna make today, you know, as a joke to myself. Because I started seeing like, I don't get as riled up when I'm expecting it. And I'm like, yep, there goes one. Yep, that's two, you know?
- [35:58]
Farnoosh Karabi
Yeah.
- [35:58]
Goli Kalkaran
And I'm not saying you have to make it a game. That's just like one example. But to show yourself the control that you have is like, I don't have to get angry about your anger. I don't have to get upset about your upset. You know, I don't have to match this energy.
- [36:11]
Farnoosh Karabi
And it's also what I. Because I had that I had a boss who was just not nice.
- [36:17]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah.
- [36:17]
Farnoosh Karabi
I mean, I know like you said, it was like there was, there's like being lovey, lovey, like, you know, kind and lovey. And then there's just like being really mean. Yeah. Like saying mean things. And I was like this young 20 year old, very impressionable person. Yeah. And I realized like it required someone much older than me to be like, it's not you, it's them.
- [36:37]
Goli Kalkaran
Totally.
- [36:37]
Farnoosh Karabi
They're not happy. And it's like, whatever you. So your best move is to just Tune this person out. And you know, that takes work. I, you know, but it helped a lot. And so sort of like creating boundaries, not allowing myself to feel the feelings. Yeah. And just do the work and let the work show for itself. Well, like I got very matter of fact at first and that's.
- [37:06]
Goli Kalkaran
And again, it is very difficult. And one of the things I do work on a lot with my clients is this thought work is the reason it's so uncomfortable or it's so hard to work with those people, like you said, is because, let's say when they say something mean, if I internalize it or if I have those feelings of like, maybe I'm not, you know, maybe I should have done that faster or I am messing up or you know, like I make it mean something about me, then it feels terrible. But like you just said, like, if I can make it more of like, okay, this person is a miserable person that just wants to make everybody else miserable around them. Right. Like this, I know my work is good or I'm doing the best I can or whatever. The thought is that you sort of have to think to get yourself to not internalize. You know, it's like, I work more with people. Like, what are your thoughts about you at work? Like, are you proud of the work that you're doing? Are you happy with? And I'm not saying that we have to ignore everything. Obviously our bosses are going to give us feedback, they're going to affect our lives. But I think that we often give them too much power because we're like, oh my God, you know, he didn't say, he said this to me and that must mean I'm terrible and everybody hates me. And when we go on these spirals and it's like if you can learn to stop that self, like negative self talk and you can kind of realize like, okay, this is, you know, a middle aged man who is sad in his life and he's taking it out on everybody else.
- [38:19]
Farnoosh Karabi
And compassion.
- [38:20]
Goli Kalkaran
Yeah.
- [38:21]
Farnoosh Karabi
Is the key. Compassion is the key to everything. Goalie. Thank you so much. I've taken so many notes. I've learned that inaction is action. So you not quitting is a form of quitting. It's a form of sort of like, you know, relinquishing yourself to a state of misery. Which, you know, one could, one could cast that as like a failure.
- [38:44]
Goli Kalkaran
Well, totally. That's the thing is like you're always making a choice, right. And you're not quitting your career. You are quitting your dreams. You're quitting other opportunities. Right? You're quitting something because you're choosing to stay where you're at.
- [38:56]
Farnoosh Karabi
I love what you say about fear in this context of like you're afraid of quitting today because maybe it's uncomfortable and there's uncertainty. I'll raise you that fear, which is to think about 10 years from now and you're still doing this mediocre job where you're not satisfied and your life has gone by. That is scarier. Let that fear motivate you to make some healthier steps today. And that's like we are so sympathetic on that. That's like I couldn't have written that more myself and I wrote about fear. So thank you so much. Tell us where we can find more about your work. I love following your tips on Instagram.
- [39:34]
Goli Kalkaran
Oh thank you. You're so sweet. You can follow me, really, anywhere on at Lessons from a Quitter, my podcast, or on Instagram. Come say hi to me so I, I can make new friends. But yeah, I, I'm mostly there. I also have a free class if you're interested. If you want kind of help with your career and figuring out that first step, you can go to quitterclub.com class and check that out.
- [39:57]
Farnoosh Karabi
Thanks so much to Guli for joining us. You can go to lessonsfromaquitter.com to learn more about her and her work. I hope your day is so New.
- [40:20]
Goli Kalkaran
Products to launch, new people to develop.
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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Farnoosh Karabi
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Goli Kalkaran
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